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#1 Edited by Esquire (4012 posts) - - Show Bio
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@dredeuced Team Tech

  • Madison Jeffries
  • Mr Terrific (7 T-Spheres)
  • TUNED Alita

@dextersinister Team McCool Swords

  • Deathstroke
  • Zealot
  • Nemesis

Rules:

  • In character
  • Win by Death, KO, BFR, or Incapacitation
  • Team Chemistry does come into play
  • No Prep
  • All DC Characters are Pre-52, but Post-52 Feats can be used in most cases
  • All Marvel Characters are Current unless otherwise specified
  • Standard Gear unless otherwise specified
  • Location is unpopulated (Except by mannequins)
  • Factory is a one-story square 0.3 miles by 0.3 miles.
  • Contestants start at opposite ends.
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#2 Edited by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced

Outside of the box I am not aware of Jeffries being very defensive, he's not known for his reflexes or his bullet stopping powers like Magneto. Is there anyway for him to avoid being gunned down within moments?

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#3 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced

Outside of the box I am not aware of Jeffries being very defensive, he's not known for his reflexes or his bullet stopping powers like Magneto. Is there anyway for him to avoid being gunned down within moments?

Aside from the fact that Mr Terrific is right there with forcefields, Alita can block the bullets, and that Maidson Jeffries himself has stopped a guy from point blank executing someone with a gun with his powers right here:

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As you can see, he literally pulls the bullet parallel away from the gun's firing arc with his powers while disarming him (I've got the follow up scans to prove this is Jeffries, it was during Weapon X #12).

Also, Mr Terrific has like a dozen bullet timing/dodging feats, and his T-sphere are faster than bullets. I believe any attempt at gunning anyone on my team down would be met with deflection:

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I think it's quite silly for anyone in this tournament to think you could win a fight by just shooting someone's team. As soon as you're content to pull out your guns and fire at the forcefield, Jeffires spends the next couple of seconds doing this to all of your gear:

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And I think that screws you over. Your team seems to be based entirely around the gear they have at hand -- Deathstroke's Nth metal armor, the Kusar blades, guns, blast staff. All metal items that Jeffries can warp or take for himself. And if you question whether he can warp unfamiliar metals, well yes, he can. Here is multiple scans showing him morphing things from different planets, a different dimension, and even Deathmetal's magical metal body:

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So lack of familiarity hasn't ever stopped him. Within the first few seconds of the, your team is gearless. At that point I believe you're quite outmatched, as Alita's a comparable or superior fighter to everyone here, Terrific can start blasting you with some tank destroying force blasts:

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and heck, jeffries can use the clearly surplus amount of material in the arena to create some robots to fight for him:

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There's also nothing to stop him from just taking Deathstroke's Nth metal armor and using it for himself while you're shooting at us.

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#4 Edited by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: I wasn't referring to Terrific or Alita I was simply wondering how Jeffries would handle those bullets, nearly every big named character can dodge bullets but I don't believe Jeffries can especially those fired from a character (randomized as my character would take a target each) with superhuman reflexes and incredible marksmanship.

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Shots and then dodges a gun about to be fired point blank by a member of her own race and order of warriors with thousands of years experience.

Theres a moment where Zealot takes down 3 coda brotherhood riding stealth bikes with her empathy but I'll need to get back to you on that either way she and Nemesis have thousand of years training.

You have a scan of him stopping a gun while the character is monologuing and if you show me that next scan you will see Jeff close by. If you show me any scan of Jeffries he is fairly close to any material he starts to manipulate, you even posted a scan where he needs to get right up next to a Sentinel without it noticing before he can do anything and this fight starts outside his range.

The T-spheres won't auto-protect Jeffrie, they won't be around him and a Full forcefield like that is also against the rules.

I don't recall Jeffries having any decent reflexes so without speculation how does he handle a bullets in flight?

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#5 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: What? Jeffries range extends through an entire base:

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Big enough to control an entire danger room from outside of it (which should be more than enough to occupy this battlefield):

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Control a warehouse full of robots:

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Pulled out the support beams of a warehouse from all sides -- I'd imagine the warehouse is of similar size to the one we're fighting in:

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Or, you know, track a bullet in space:

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He's controlled and created ships that are larger than the entire battle area, there's absolutely no way his range is less than what you're saying -- just because his very first showings had limited range doesn't mean that lasts through continuity. His range is, at bare minimum, as large as our entire arena.

Jeffries has been fired at by high speed projectiles tons of times, and I take issue with the fact that you seriously think your team can win by just shooting guns at a guy who controls metal. Cable and Kane were firing at him and his army through the entirety of weapon x and, despite being incredibly weakened, he never took a shot.

I believe you're misinterpreting the scan -- Cable is about to execute the Weapon X director and Jeffries disarms him and redirects the bullet (Thus the "bang" and the bullet going in a completely different direction) to save him. It's less about the monologue and more about how he stops a bullet from hitting someone.

My main point is that, even should Jeffries not be able to stop bullets (I contest he can, anyhow), Terrific should be able to protect my team long enough to disable your guns via Jeffries, who can do it with a thought. If Esquire wants to rule that sustained fire will break the shield via rules then that's fine, it's not like Jeffries needs a whole lot of time to turn your weapons into balloon animals. Terrific has plenty of bullet dodging/reacting feats if you need them, and his T-Spheres are massively faster than bullets. While you're drawing, they move to protect while Jeffries disarms your guys. Jeffries, while not superhumanly fast, doesn't need to draw a gun to fire it -- all he has to do is think to use his powers.

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#6 Posted by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: If you have a scan or even a link stopping a projectile as fast as a bullet then could you provide it if you claim he has done so. Lots of characters have bullet dodging feats so we take it for granted but it still something special so you need proof that you won't get mowed down.

That scan with the bullet is incorrect it was Magneto that sensed the bullet you mearly have one of him pointing it out on a monitor with the rest of the science team.

The rest of your scans are all close maybe aroun 30 feet, I was taking about a couple of hundred feet range which is good for high powered hand guns.

Needed to think just to use it is debatable when he gestures in every scan you provided but even then he still needs to prove he can react to a bullet in flight.

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#7 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister said:

@dredeuced: If you have a scan or even a link stopping a projectile as fast as a bullet then could you provide it if you claim he has done so. Lots of characters have bullet dodging feats so we take it for granted but it still something special so you need proof that you won't get mowed down.

That scan with the bullet is incorrect it was Magneto that sensed the bullet you mearly have one of him pointing it out on a monitor with the rest of the science team.

The rest of your scans are all close maybe aroun 30 feet, I was taking about a couple of hundred feet range which is good for high powered hand guns.

Needed to think just to use it is debatable when he gestures in every scan you provided but even then he still needs to prove he can react to a bullet in flight.

I have already showed you him stopping Cable from shooting a guy point blank and directing the bullet in a different direction -- and a follow up scan of him carrying the director away while sending a robot army to confront Cable, Kane and co. Don't know what more you want.

Magneto didn't locate the bullet, they literally couldn't talk to him so they went to Jeffries(notice the line about "getting x-club in the loop" ?) to find it. It's a giant bullet hurtling through space, holding Shadowcat/Kitty. And of course he pointed it out on the monitor, what else was he gonna do, point to the sky and say "there she is," ?

The rest is you downplaying the distance he shows and ignoring that we start off in a small room in a building for the arena. How is sensing the entire structure of a multi kilometer wide base or controlling a several hundred square foot danger room "30 feet" ? You're intenteionally misinterpreting the scans and downplaying them to just say "Well my team shoots you to death" as if it were that simple.

Honestly, he could just use Alita as a personal shield since she's a very capable bullet timer, very willing to sacrifice her body in a fight, and Jeffries can instantly repair her, if you want an impeccable counter to just shooting my team. She could hold her damascus blade in front of her head to prevent any actual lethal shot. Does that suit you? Do I have to come up with a dozen different ways for guns not to work? You make it sound like a gang of 3 thugs with guns would cripple my team.

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#8 Edited by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: You have Jeffries stop a gun from firing, he knows where the bullet is. You claimed he stopped lots of projectiles, show me.

I said that he pointed to the monitor. That is not that proof he can sense let alone manipulate metal of that distance.

If you look at the rules the room we start in is very big. It's over 300 feet long which is why his distance to fine manipulate is a big deal, as I said earlier your best scan of him manipulating an opponent in the heat of combat was when he was right next to the Sentinel..

All your characters know about each other is basic info. My characters first action would be to attempt to gun down yours, why would Alitas first reaction be to suddenly jump in front of Jeffries when she herself is being shot at, why not Terrific? and say she is the sort that jumps in front of strangers as a fight starts, if Jeffries appears important enough to protect but incapable of protecting himself then the team will focus their fire on him.

You can come up with as many ways as you want but you only get to enact one per character and they need to be off the the bat and make sense when all your characters are being fired upon.

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#9 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: I asked Esquire specifically about how much our characters know of their own team, and he told me they have full knowledge of their history and abilities. If Jeffries can't stop bullets, as you say, then Alita would by privy to this info and would defend him -- she's sacrificed herself to save people before, and Jeffries is a long standing good guy. Alita can respond to things that are significantly faster than bullets and move fast enough to keep up with them (dodging bullets at point blank while being held still, dodging mach 3+ water jets and striking fast enough to outpace them).

Your strategy thus far is "my team shoots yours to death" and I think it's a crappy one. All of my strategies are fine, you just cast incorrect doubt about them so I have to keep coming up with more so you can actually make a more interesting argument.

I mean I guess you just want to say Jeffries dies as soon as the fight starts so he can't counter your gear? Is that what you're hinging on? If so then I contest it would not happen. Let the voters decide, if you must. I'm tired of debating something so trivial.

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#10 Posted by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: If she just happens to be close enough to extend out something to deflect then she will take the hits ment for her and within moments the next pulls of the trigger will all be towards Jeffrey.

You think it's crappy but why should I need to go beyond placing a bullet in a characters head if thats all it takes. You claimed he had feats stopping lots of projectiles so debate the point and stop the complaining.

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#11 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: If she just happens to be close enough to extend out something to deflect then she will take the hits ment for her and within moments the next pulls of the trigger will all be towards Jeffrey.

You think it's crappy but why should I need to go beyond placing a bullet in a characters head if thats all it takes. You claimed he had feats stopping lots of projectiles so debate the point and stop the complaining.

The projectiles weren't bullets, so it wouldn't be relevant -- I've only got him stopping a bullet once and you think the scan doesn't count because there was talking beforehand, while I disagree. I think it's crappy because I've addressed it three different times and never felt you gave a good reason why any of the strategies wouldn't work. I also don't know why my team wouldn't be close to each other. You assume a lot of things. We start 1500 feet away(.3 mile factory, start on opposite ends) and you don't think that's long enough for T-spheres to respond to bullets or Jeffries to put up a metal wall in front of himself or Alita to intercept shots coming for him or for him to disable the guns?

Ignoring the time it takes you to draw your guns, it'd take the bullets from a handgun anywhere from 2 seconds (bullets can be as slow as 600 feet per second) to half a second (rifles travel 2500 feet per second). You don't think ANY of what I said could happen in that time? There's metal tables and junk all in the area, why can't Jeffries do something like this:

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I mean what more do you want?

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#12 Edited by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Disabling the guns at that distance no and stopping a bullet in flight is still speculation. As I've for the third time one of the few offenses moments you have shows him needing to get close to what he manipulates.

What is he actually stopping in that scan is that him holding up a wall or in the suit?

I will give you the T-spheres and Alita defending Jeffries but you have six guns aiming for him I have feet/feat on the brain when I should have been using meters but you will only have seconds as before firing begins, they only need to make one good hit and there energy is tied up defending him Deathstroke could blow him to bits with his energy lance which he is shown to carry in both post and old 52 except it can split into 2 pieces post.

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.I was in a similar situation where we measured the speed of a bullet, 600 feet is the slowest, most commercial handguns travel at super sonic. These would be guns that would shatter normal bullets as Zealot and Nemesis are listed as using bullets that treat their more durable flesh as if they where normal as they fight a lot of their own race.

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#13 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: You can't accurately speculate the speed, my guns are also more powerful/higher velocity than your standard hand gun but I can't quantify by how much -- Jeffries and my team should be able to defend themselves at this distance. Also, they shouldn't be THAT much more powerful than normal guns, because normal fire should be able to harm the innate durability of everyone here, so I don't quite get your "more durable flesh" remark unless normal gunfire doesn't hurt them.

And frankly, if you want to go with dueling at range, then Terrific wins the quickdraw by doing this to all three of your members:

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Does anyone on your team have mach 66 reaction time?

Also, I'll take Alita's marksmanship over anything you've shown(unless you want to show Deathstroke somehow shooting Speed Force users, which always makes my head spin @_@):

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She's capable of shooting bullet speed+ objects out of the air -- it's a long story, that ball bearing he flicks is actually significantly faster than guns, I'd have to give you like a 50 scan story to go through it all though, but if you absolutely need me to prove it I will. The next scans are her headshotting from several hundred meters away -- they needed binoculars to even see her at that distance.

I was gonna use the bullet shooting feat next if I need ANOTHER way to defend Jeffries, btw.

Her weapons are also significantly more powerful than your guns (though probably merely equal to Deathstroke's staff), considering they do this:

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Her rifle destroys armored trucks in a single shot(comparable to blowing up a chopper, if not superior), her pistol sends them careening to the side, and also blows large chunks out of reinforced concrete. Oh, you want more ranged Firepower? Well, as soon as he gets his defensive cover up (it's not illegal to hide behind something that can take bullets, right?), he can basically create an artillery position. He's created huge swathes of weapons out of raw materials:

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Note: I know these are both pictures of his box robot, but he doesn't NEED to be in the Box to create guns and stuff like sonic cannons like he has before, he's just usually inside it when he does because, well, if you could be in a giant suit of armor wouldn't you?

I've already showed you the T-spheres also destroying tanks in single blasts, so if you want to turn this into a ranged fight then I'll go for that. This is assuming that Jeffries can't just disable your weapons because of ranged issues, which I find highly suspect given the range he's shown his powers to stretch to before.

If this turns into a firefight then I also have the major benefit of Jeffries being able to resupply my team with ammo, create cover, and repair Terrific's spheres or Alita's body. Alita can also release autonomous drones to attack you if you decide to stay at range, like arachnos and missile bees:

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Basically she has dozens of autonomous drones that can target and attack your team -- while I'm sure your team could PROBABLY shoot them if they start to get too close, that's a lot of other targets to be occupied with while Tspheres send force blasts your way and Alita and Jeffries lay down the fire.

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#14 Edited by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: They don't need mach 6 time the same way characters who dodge laser fire or Cykes Optic blasts don't need light speed reaction time they react to the target. A bluff as well given that the Huntress took down his T-Spheres with a net in there last showing, never mind that it's out of character for Majestic to kill people, so why are these 2 ok fighting alongside a killer like Alita?

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Before I respond my characters where on the offensive you where originally using the resources of these characters to defend squishy Jeffries so if they where defending him when did they get a chance to fire back unless of course they stopped defending him.

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#15 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: That's pretty out of context, it's not like he sets his t-spheres to instavaporize intruders -- and he's not there, as Huntress plainly states. Also doesn't really counter the idea that he can shoot tank destroying blasts.

Uh, they stop guarding for him after he spends the half second it takes for him to create defensive cover? I thought I made it clear he created cover and they start firing back. It gives my team a definitive advantage because, well, you don't have cover.

Also, Alita can defend him WHILE shooting missile bees/arachnos and shooting at you/your bullets. They're all separate devices. It's like thinking Terrific can't attack and fly at the same time -- of course he can, he just uses different spheres.

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#16 Edited by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: I was disputing the speed, if they where capable of that power they wouldn't be held down by a net. Mute point anyway as even if you did show a tank destroying blast or they where capable of that speed it would be out of character for him to use it. Also they know the history of this Alita and she is terribly violent so why is he fighting beside her? if it matters Zealot is in a relationship with Slade and is aware of his status.

He takes cover against gun fire and dies or gets knocked unconscious from the blast he doesn't know is coming. Deathstoke the guy who shoots speedsters and knocks the wind out of Black Canary a bullet dodger before she can unclench her jaw takes a fraction of second to handle Jeffries Zealot and Nemesis handle the other 2 for a moment.

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Same race as her each with enhanced stats and thousands of years combat experience, there's more behind them if you want the scans as it's an impressive display.

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Nemesis is an empath/telepath which is how she was able to tell Savant a teleporter who moves at supersonic speeds was behind her and she dodges grabs and throws her mid launch. I know Elita is a cyborg but she was transplanted from a human brain.

Also the bullet they shot at could be standard, standard bullets morph in the barrel so they would react like that, armour are often made from tungsten or a few other metals and would clang away.

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#17 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: Alita isn't particularly violent? She was destroying a bunch of evil rapist cyborg henchmen who were trying to kill her and her two friends. She basically makes friends with everyone around her and does her best to save innocent people, even if she does use lethal force. There shouldn't be any teamwork issues. Alita has worked with cyborg copies of herself and both Terrific and Jeffries primarily star in teams (JSA and Alpha Flight respectively).

I'm fairly sure Terrific is aware of Deathstroke -- most infamous merc in the world and all, while Terrific is one of the smartest people in DCU. He can probably fill in the team on his blast staff(maybe not particulars, but the gist), I don't think catching my team with the surprise blast staff is a particularly good tactic. It's one of the reasons why I have Jeffries and Terrific -- needed guys from both universes to cover up surprises. If you think you win just by using the Blast staff then I'll win by shooting you with 7 simultaneous tank destroying beams, whatever.

Alita also has an ability similar to that empathy called chi and kizashi. Chi gives her omnidirectional awareness of her surroundings and the ability to sense her opponents' weakpoints(countered by more powerful chi), Kizashi gives her a supernatural sense of her opponents next attack:

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She has quite a few other abilities, but it's not quite relevant considering you seem apt to keep this a range duel. I'm happy to, because as I said, Jeffries affords my team infinite ammo, can repair Terrific's spheres (should he decide to suicide them at you) and actually heal Alita given her cyborg body -- not to mention I come equipped with much more powerful weaponry (I'll take high tech tank busting over chopper busting any day), and a much higher volume thanks to Jeffries' abilities.

Also, Alita's brain is actually a quantum computer called Fata Morgana fused with a Brain Chip. I'll need to go fish the scan because I didn't think it'd be relevant, hold on.

edit: Here we go, here's her stating that her brain was swapped for a chip(by Destoy Nova):

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Here's Destoy Nova talking about how, with the help of some rogue AIs, she had her brain chip fused with the Fata Morgana (A quantum computer):

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While Destoy Nova did say she had a lot of computer power, she never uses it in any stupid broken way like Midnighter so there's no rule breaking, if you were wondering. She can also freely swap between bodies -- from her motorball, to her TUNED, to her Bersker/Imaginos bodies. The only common factor is she uses the same brain, that's why she can have Fata Morgana in her TUNED body:

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Sorry about the swapping from Right to Left to Left to Right text scrolling -- the Manga swapped publishers part way through the series. The first publishers had their books go left to right like american comics, but the second publishers had him go right to left.

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#18 Posted by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Jeffries has a history of mental problems, he was recovering from PTSD in alpha flight, Jeffries hasn't been on the Alpha Flight team since he was tortured and brainwashed at least twice. He then wanted to avoid people altogether and hasn't been part of a team that takes active missions since his mental stability took a hit. You have probably given the worst example of the people she has killed, Terrific doesn't go for the kill,

Terrific being aware of Deathstroke is the reason I am okay with you defending Jeffries from the get-go. But giving your team a full run down on every piece of equipment on top of that when they have never met and they would be more concerned with the visible threats of the guns. In the few seconds he has maybe he could say "Oh shit that's Deathstroke, Jeffries you gonna die".

It's still at range as the fight has only started and you only seem to have one ranged attacker. Unless you are sending the t-spheres forward as those are effectively Terrifics bullets. You have shown me variations of attacks I just need to be clear on which ones you are actively using.

As long as she has a consciousness and is not an emotionless robot that's fine then Nemesis can still get a read on her actions as she has sensed the emotions of a even a cosmic robot before.

So far the fight has played with my characters taking fire at yours with Alita returning fire and possibly the t-spheres as well. Jeffries is behind cover and Deathstroke takes a shot at him, you can say he retroactively told Jeffries about the boom stick but you haven't actually prepared for it. So how does the scenario go down?

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#19 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister said:

@dredeuced: Jeffries has a history of mental problems, he was recovering from PTSD in alpha flight, Jeffries hasn't been on the Alpha Flight team since he was tortured and brainwashed at least twice. He then wanted to avoid people altogether and hasn't been part of a team that takes active missions since his mental stability took a hit. You have probably given the worst example of the people she has killed, Terrific doesn't go for the kill,

Terrific being aware of Deathstroke is the reason I am okay with you defending Jeffries from the get-go. But giving your team a full run down on every piece of equipment on top of that when they have never met and they would be more concerned with the visible threats of the guns. In the few seconds he has maybe he could say "Oh shit that's Deathstroke, Jeffries you gonna die".

It's still at range as the fight has only started and you only seem to have one ranged attacker. Unless you are sending the t-spheres forward as those are effectively Terrifics bullets. You have shown me variations of attacks I just need to be clear on which ones you are actively using.

As long as she has a consciousness and is not an emotionless robot that's fine then Nemesis can still get a read on her actions as she has sensed the emotions of a even a cosmic robot before.

So far the fight has played with my characters taking fire at yours with Alita returning fire and possibly the t-spheres as well. Jeffries is behind cover and Deathstroke takes a shot at him, you can say he retroactively told Jeffries about the boom stick but you haven't actually prepared for it. So how does the scenario go down?

Jeffries also recovered from his mental issues? He's most recently been with the X-Club -- heck, even after Diamond Lil died (his LONG time love interest) he's since moved on without any breakdowns or issues. I don't know what you mean by worst example of people she's killed -- that's all the people she's killed. Her early life was spent tracking down rampaging murdering cybogrs. Then she got enlisted as a soldier to go kill the rebellious cyborg army (the scans i've showed you as her as a TUNED) -- when she realized the government she was working for was evil, she turned on them and freed Tiphares from their control and stopped them from mass brain harvesting their people. She's literally a freedom fighter.

I'm not saying Terrific gives a full rundown. I am saying my team shouldn't be surprised by him using a blast staff when Terrific should be well aware of it upon seeing him.

How do I have one ranged attacker? Terrific shoots energy blasts, Alita has two high powered guns and dozens of explosive drones, and Jeffries can literally make as many ranged weapons as he wants.

How does the scenario go down? The fight starts off with Terrific creating a force field for him and Jeffries while Jeffries transmutes some cover. While he's doing it, Terrific tells him to make it stronger than usual because Deathstroke has an energy staff -- the third smartest man in the world should be atleast that clever, don't you think? Alita is sending out her drones and firing on your guys in the mean time -- Terrific is using his 3 other Tspheres (he uses 4 to make the forcefield, and 3 to fly/do stuff in the scan I showed) to shoot energy blasts at your team. After the first few seconds the forcefield breaks and Jeffries has long since created very durable cover for my team(he can transmute entire sentinels in seconds, I think he can make durable cover in the same time) -- Alita takes position behind it and snipes while Jeffries hides COMPLETELY behind it and begins transmuting a bunch of high powered weaponry like he does with the Box -- if he needs any complex circuitry to transmute then Alita has plenty of non combat drones and even her mobile unit bike with her, considering neither are very helpful in this fight.

Given the distance our teams are at it shouldn't be too hard for either of us to execute a basic plan before weapons are drawn and attacks reach us in force.

Honestly, I figured since your team's entire theme is sword fighting you'd actually go for that but I guess you're worried about Jeffries disarming you so you stay at range? Does anyone on your team know about Jeffries? Why would they keep their distance and use guns when they're known for melee combat?

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#20 Edited by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: You are retroactively acting to my character about to use a basting staff up until this point they where reacting to my gunfire. 3rd smartest man or not just like in the comics when they are acting as the writers dictate these characters are acting under are guidance, just because and just like in the comics they are often caught unaware because they don't take into account. One of my characters has a full body forcefield and that is disallowed and can only be shield sized as it's against tournament rules so there is no reason you should be able to use one. Even if you where I am laying down fire from

Jeffries is making cover if it's a big box Deathstroke shoots beside it and the explosion catches him that way or he can just rapid fire shots that take helicopters and plow through stone columns. Even then there isn't exactly an abundance of materials within his range for a barrier against Deathstrokes blasting staff.

Good you are using the drones, so you let loose dozens of explosive drones while under fire from people with superhuman senses so they well be aware of these drones, you yourself said that my team could shoot them, your team is already under fire from 4 armour piercing handguns. When one of those clustered drones gets hit upon release that would start an explosive chain reaction in your teams midst.

The match has just started and before my team even reacted you had Jeffries form a barrier based around my team based around a tactic that had yet to play out which has clearly displayed his ability to manipulate materials, they would either assume one of 3 things technopath/magnetic/telepathic Deathstroke handled the last with an explosion. In your last match the first thing you did was have T-Spheres mask your character in my last match my characters did pretty much the same thing and we never actually reached the h2h as my tactic is to test the waters with gunfire.

In the last round I pushed the ranged advantage against an invisible character who moved on ahead and was caught unaware by an empath locating his position (Nemesis could point out to Deathstroke where Jeffries is if he needs to double tap the boomstick) in this I am pushing the advantage against a character who is clearly more vulnerable than the others considering the lengths they go to protect him and he is more vulnerable as I said he hasn't been on an active team, the X-club was never an active team and getting over a woman quickly isn't strange at all for a technophile.

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#21 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister:

@dredeuced: You are retroactively acting to my character about to use a basting staff up until this point they where reacting to my gunfire. 3rd smartest man or not just like in the comics when they are acting as the writers dictate these characters are acting under are guidance, just because and just like in the comics they are often caught unaware because they don't take into account. One of my characters has a full body forcefield and that is disallowed and can only be shield sized as it's against tournament rules so there is no reason you should be able to use one. Even if you where I am laying down fire from

Now you're just getting prickly. I'm pretty sure your forcefield was disallowed for breaking the durability limits, wasn't it? Esquire is well aware of Terrific's capabilities (he's argued with him before) and never forbade me from using it. I'm pointedly saying it'd break within durability limits (Sustained fire, as Esquire says) -- it's a stalling mechanic to let Jeffries do his magic.

Jeffries is making cover if it's a big box Deathstroke shoots beside it and the explosion catches him that way or he can just rapid fire shots that take helicopters and plow through stone columns. Even then there isn't exactly an abundance of materials within his range for a barrier against Deathstrokes blasting staff.

...We're in a factory. In the picture alone you can see tons of metal scaffolding and tables, not to mention the reinforced concrete (You know, reinforced with steel) at the bottom and a plethora of other fixtures. You're grasping at straws if you don't think Jeffries has enough material in a .3 mile wide factory.

You're over 1500 feet away -- that's over 500 yards meters or, you know, 5 football fields. We look like specks to each other -- you don't have the angle of attack to shoot from the side.

Helicopters aren't, you know, that durable. How thick is their armor plating? 2 to 3 inches? Were those even combat helicopters or just reporter choppers, anyhow? You seriously don't think Jeffries, a guy who can make a robot that can take hits from The Thing out of raw material:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

He doesn't make his Box robot out of special metal or anything -- just whatever happens to be around. While he can't make the Box robot or psionically fuse his atoms with Metal because of durability reasons, the fact that you think a guy who makes this grade of tech, within seconds, out of scratch can't surpass the defense of a Chopper or a shoddy earthen construct (from Terra, right? His secret lover and accomplice or whatever?) is patently ridiculous. Jeffries has made more durable things in less time then you're giving him, out of less material.

Good you are using the drones, so you let loose dozens of explosive drones while under fire from people with superhuman senses so they well be aware of these drones, you yourself said that my team could shoot them, your team is already under fire from 4 armour piercing handguns. When one of those clustered drones gets hit upon release that would start an explosive chain reaction in your teams midst.

I don't think you get how armed explosives work. They don't just blow up when shot -- they home in on their target and arm and explode. If you shot a missile bee while it was near Alita it wouldn't blow up, just like how if you shot an RPG out of the sky before it reached its safety limit it wouldn't explode. Proof:

No Caption Provided

The ones on the ground don't explode when cut up -- only the armed ones that hit the dog (PS that's a hypersonic dog that tears through cyborgs like butter, just so you know) -- you can tell because even in the picture of the explosion, the ones on the ground that are all cut up aren't blowing up. They only blow up when they get to their designated target. So yeah, that strategy is bunk as heck. They're either a distraction until they reach you, or they reach you and blow your team up -- can't be really used against me.

The match has just started and before my team even reacted you had Jeffries form a barrier based around my team based around a tactic that had yet to play out which has clearly displayed his ability to manipulate materials, they would either assume one of 3 things technopath/magnetic/telepathic Deathstroke handled the last with an explosion. In your last match the first thing you did was have T-Spheres mask your character in my last match my characters did pretty much the same thing and we never actually reached the h2h as my tactic is to test the waters with gunfire.

Are you intentionally misconstruing my point now? I specifically did not say before your team reacted -- I said, in the time it takes you to pull out your weapons, fire, and for the fire to reach my team, Terrific could defend and Jeffries would already be started on the barrier -- it takes less time for the spheres to travel next to my guys than it does your attacks to reach him. By the time the forcefield goes down, I think it's fair to assume Jeffries has a solid chunk of cover constructed. We've already gone over this and it never had anything to do with "before your team reacts" -- you're putting words in my mouth and I dislike it.

The thing is, you're outright ignoring me, as well. I've said I've got the other 3 T-sphere's firing tank destroying blasts at your team -- one for each member. I've got the other 4 spheres (all that's needed) to make a within the durability limits field. You haven't stated anything against it in the last like 5 posts

I didn't have my spheres make masks for my team this time. That was last match where I was fighting a guy named Daken whose secondary power is airborne pheromones -- so I had Terrific make masks to defend my team from it. My opponent said his team was going to go hide/stealth around, so I also needed a way to sniff that out, which the T-Mask also gives. Your team isn't hiding, and no one uses a pheromone, why would I repeat the same course of action. I'm not LOCKED into the same opening move every time. You can't use my argument from my LAST match against me when I'm not even making that argument, what the hell?

I merely said I THOUGHT you were going to try to force the issue in melee range, but since you aren't I'm fine with it, as I believe my team massively outguns you -- 3 t-spheres firing tank buster blasts until Jeffries finishes his cover, then 7, Alita's drone swarms and her guns that are much more powerful than your machine guns, and Jeffries and his ability to literally shoot a bunch of guns out of his cover and have them fire on you.

In the last round I pushed the ranged advantage against an invisible character who moved on ahead and was caught unaware by an empath locating his position (Nemesis could point out to Deathstroke where Jeffries is if he needs to double tap the boomstick) in this I am pushing the advantage against a character who is clearly more vulnerable than the others considering the lengths they go to protect him.

What's the range on her empathy? If you're questioning Jeffries' transmutation range out the wazoo despite massive proof to the contrary, I'd like proof your empathy works at well over 500 meters distance. The only scan you've shown is her responding to someone directly behind her with the ability, not using it at massive range to determine an opponent's abilities.

You're also assuming advantage when it isn't there. Mr Terrific alone outguns your team with tank blasts, ignoring the fact that Alita is a better shot with a more powerful rifle, as well. Since you so greatly demanded bullet timing from my team, where's yours? I know Deathstroke can, give me some Zealot and Nemesis feats as to why they don't get picked off by Alita and Terrific. You've done nothing but assume your team is massively superior to mine and it's pretty annoying.

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#22 Edited by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: As the T-spheres are protecting Jeffries have you any durability feats?

You are on the far side, there is tonnes of metal within the factory yes but as we've established very little of it is within reach, we have already shown that he has shown the limit of his ability, given how far the metal is spread out he would be hard pushed to make a car let alone a helicopter or a decent barrier against an energy staff. There was gun fire from the second Helicopter so they clearly aren't used for reporting the weather. Lover or not it was still a pillar of solid stone showing it's ability to penetrate.

You've probably noticed that the Lion is cutting them through the neck but grenades go off if a bullet manages to penetrate because of the heat generated, most modern grenades are too durable for a standard bullets but where using armour piercing. Unlike a standard grenade the explosion from those small insects is very large so they must contain a volatile concoction so that may explain why he needs to be precise when cutting them as even shock could set them off.

Actually it's been fairly unclear on what your characters have been doing, you would show images of multiple moves and then have them retroactively react in different ways to the same action at one point Alita was blocking the fire and firing back and the next he be behind a forcefield behind cover. Every defensive measure taken to protect Jeffries has been reacting to my characters opening fire which would only be viable after individuals who have shown supersonic reflex feats have drawn there gun and fired.

I'm not ignoring it I've addressed it, you've ignored my point, why is Terrific firing tank destroying blasts with his morals?

Pheromones are against the rules and you cited lots of other advantages, once you get back to me with durability feats the forcefield but until then it can only withstand a few standard bullets. Slades boomstick should have no problem against it and even his armour piercing rounds should go through it like butter.

I've shown that Terrific won't use the blasts that I am still not aware of, gone over how the drones are a disadvantage on your end.

I am not trying to offend you but some of your comments are coming off as slightly hostile, sometimes in a debate especially one online someone can come across as rude when they don't mean to, I may target your comments but that should never be seen as me thinking any less of you, you beautiful individual you. I never claimed my team was better than yours as I've never once even made mention of a bullet ever touching Alita or Terrific I'm merely having 2 characters distract them while a third attempts to take out the weak link in the chain. Most of my points have been finding weak links in your team and I've found it in Jeffries a character with very limited showings who has yet to have even been shown in a firefight, I'm merely having 2 characters distract them while a third attempts to take out the weak link in the chain.

In all honesty a lot of your claims on Jeff need to be backed up, you have him using multiple guns within seconds but with what gun powder and would he do that if he is a good guy? and creating an army of Sentinels within moments. I've never seen his early stuff but he never came across as very useful in a standard fight so either this is all speculation on your part or you have a character who can give Magneto a run for his money.

Keep up I've already provided them. I've shown Nemesis grabbing a speedster that travels at Supersonic speeds at point blank which would put her near the pinnacle of what this tournament allows and Zealot avoiding a gun fired from someone with enhanced reflexes at point blank unless you genuinely want bullet timing feats from Deahstroke? On her empathy range I'll get back to you put unlike Jeffries it has yet to play into my plan let alone be such a crucial part of it.

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#23 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister:

You are on the far side, there is tonnes of metal within the factory yes but as we've established very little of it is within reach, we have already shown that he has shown the limit of his ability, given how far the metal is spread out he would be hard pushed to make a car let alone a helicopter or a decent barrier against an energy staff.

We never established any of this. For one, you keep making stuff up about Jeffries range which isn't the slightest bit true, as I've had to restate over and over. Secondly, there's no defined "Spread out" state of the metal -- we got a picture of one small part of a factory that is apparently MASSIVE, and in that one picture there's multiple tons of metal. You're assuming stuff that's outright untrue to suit your purposes.

Helicopters aren't particularly more durable than a car, and a wall is a lot less difficult to make than either.

You've probably noticed that the Lion is cutting them through the neck but grenades go off if a bullet manages to penetrate because of the heat generated, most modern grenades are too durable for a standard bullets but where using armour piercing. Unlike a standard grenade the explosion from those small insects is very large so they must contain a volatile concoction so that may explain why he needs to be precise when cutting them as even shock could set them off.

This is irrelevant. I never contested you couldn't shoot the drones -- just that you'd have to alter what you're firing at. I'm fine with them being distractions.

Also you're assuming stuff about tech that has nothing to do with "modern day" -- Alita's a freaking cyborg from hundreds of years in the future and her TUNED body and equipment are the peak of Tiphares technology. They're not grenades -- they're armed warheads. It's plain and simple. Your plan does not work. Warheads don't blow up until they arm themselves. Even modern day RPG tech works like that.

Actually it's been fairly unclear on what your characters have been doing, you would show images of multiple moves and then have them retroactively react in different ways to the same action at one point Alita was blocking the fire and firing back and the next he be behind a forcefield behind cover. Every defensive measure taken to protect Jeffries has been reacting to my characters opening fire which would only be viable after individuals who have shown supersonic reflex feats have drawn there gun and fired.

Okay, I am sick and tired of you repeatedly trying to call me out for "retroactively" doing something. This entire debate started with you talking about Bullets, so I talked about all the ways I could stop bullets. You THEN brought up more attacks after you pretended to leave me "set" in my response to you, which is benign worldplay to try to downplay my argument. YOU are the one who retroactively brought up deathstroke using his staff when you said your team fires on me with guns -- guns that Deathstroke DOES have, because Deathstroke uses guns all the time! If you want to call me out for retroactively ammending my statement, fine, but you did it first, because your opening argument was literally this:

@dextersinister said:

@dredeuced

Outside of the box I am not aware of Jeffries being very defensive, he's not known for his reflexes or his bullet stopping powers like Magneto. Is there anyway for him to avoid being gunned down within moments?

You brought up bullets, so I responded to bullets. Stop being so pedantic, jeez.

What my team is doing: Terrific is setting up a barrier with 4 spheres and attacking with 3 (he can fly around and dodge and shoot with just 3, as I've shown in the scans), Alita is firing on your team while releasing drones, Jeffries is creating cover for my team and guns out of nearby materials -- whether it be Alita's bike or the metal in the warehouse.

I'm not ignoring it I've addressed it, you've ignored my point, why is Terrific firing tank destroying blasts with his morals?

For cover? To injure? That's the scale of his blasts. He's outright said he doesn't usually resort to lethal force, but 3 superhumans firing on him and his team is more than enough reason to atleast fire back. It's not like he's never attacked with near intent to kill before:

No Caption Provided

As well as just blast to stun:

No Caption Provided

He can scale it however he pleases, apparently.

Pheromones are against the rules and you cited lots of other advantages, once you get back to me with durability feats the forcefield but until then it can only withstand a few standard bullets. Slades boomstick should have no problem against it and even his armour piercing rounds should go through it like butter.

The gravity fields Terrific's Spheres can make are powerful enough to stop the kinetic force of a speeding car (through SCIENCE):

No Caption Provided

It's literally turning kinetic force against itself -- which is why I said the durability limit allowed for it.

Daken's pheromones seemed to be allowed in our fight, and I countered them at the time. My last fight is irrelevant, stop bringing it up.

I've shown that Terrific won't use the blasts that I am still not aware of, gone over how the drones are a disadvantage on your end.

You made stuff up. Terrific's blasts range in power from stunning a guy to blowing up a tank. Fit that into your calculations. The drones won't blow up in our faces because you used outdated tech in reference to futuristic drones that work like armed warheads rather than freaking grenades.

I am not trying to offend you but some of your comments are coming off as slightly hostile, sometimes in a debate especially one online someone can come across as rude when they don't mean to, I may target your comments but that should never be seen as me thinking any less of you, you beautiful individual you. I never claimed my team was better than yours as I've never once even made mention of a bullet ever touching Alita or Terrific I'm merely having 2 characters distract them while a third attempts to take out the weak link in the chain. Most of my points have been finding weak links in your team and I've found it in Jeffries a character with very limited showings who has yet to have even been shown in a firefight, I'm merely having 2 characters distract them while a third attempts to take out the weak link in the chain.

I don't need to be patronized, bro. I will never take offense to anything you say, even if your arguments tire and frustrate me. I am coming off as hostile because I'm having to repeat myself a lot.

Your team doesn't even know who the weak link in the chain is. Your argument is based on a lot of supposition and prior knowledge you don't know. Slade should know about Mr. Terrific, for sure, but why don't you think the 5 foot 5 girl is a weak link instead of the guy who opens up the fight looking like Magneto?

Jeffries has been in, like, dozens of firefights -- he's just usually in Box so it's not very relevant. Again, you're making stuff up and assuming things beyond your knowledge.

In all honesty a lot of your claims on Jeff need to be backed up, you have him using multiple guns within seconds but with what gun powder and would he do that if he is a good guy? and creating an army of Sentinels within moments. I've never seen his early stuff but he never came across as very useful in a standard fight so either this is all speculation on your part or you have a character who can give Magneto a run for his money.

...Jeffries doesn't manipulate gunpowder. It's not within his powers of manipulating glass, plastic, or metal. He psionically creates "guns" and fires metal slugs psionically, like when he tosses a spear with enough force to destroy a sentinel:

No Caption Provided

What do you mean, never came across as useful in a standard fight? Box is Alpha Flight's strongest member. Da fuq.

He can't really give pre-nerf Magneto a run for his money because Magneto is much more generally powerful. He can alter larger amounts of metal, do it at longer ranges, lift more, and has super powerful EM shields that block basically everything under the sun. Magneto controls electromagnetism -- Jeffries is a tech nut who transmutes plastic/metal/glass. Similar, sometimes, but vastly different -- you don't ever see Magneto creating armies of robots, just like you don't see Jeffries picking up meteor sized hunks of iron.

Keep up I've already provided them. I've shown Nemesis grabbing a speedster that travels at Supersonic speeds at point blank which would put her near the pinnacle of what this tournament allows and Zealot avoiding a gun fired from someone with enhanced reflexes at point blank unless you genuinely want bullet timing feats from Deahstroke? On her empathy range I'll get back to you put unlike Jeffries it has yet to play into my plan let alone be such a crucial part of it.

What do you mean it's not a part of your plan? You literally said you were using it to figure out what my team was doing and using that info to instruct Deathstroke to do something.

dodging a supersonic speedster isn't really spiderman level speed. Hypersonic, maybe. Spiderman's shot bullets out of the sky with his webbing -- something that only Alita's done on my team and Slade with Speedsters on yours, as far as I'm aware.

though if you think that's the limit, then Slade tagging nearlight speed speedsters like Bart and Wally put him well out of this tournament's limits. But since those are PIS I think people just kind of write it off and let Deathstroke users use all his other feats.

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#24 Posted by dondave (41748 posts) - - Show Bio

This is looking good

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#25 Posted by dondave (41748 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: I dunno, whenever we agree on it or Esquire deems the tourney needs to move on. I have a habit of overarguing points, though.

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#27 Posted by dondave (41748 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Edited by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

@dextersinister:

We never established any of this. For one, you keep making stuff up about Jeffries range which isn't the slightest bit true, as I've had to restate over and over. Secondly, there's no defined "Spread out" state of the metal -- we got a picture of one small part of a factory that is apparently MASSIVE, and in that one picture there's multiple tons of metal. You're assuming stuff that's outright untrue to suit your purposes.

Helicopters aren't particularly more durable than a car, and a wall is a lot less difficult to make than either.

Me make stuff up? I am working off what you have shown which has shown to be restricted in area by a scan you provided where he needs to get close to a Sentinel and has never shown drawing material in from beyond a certain distance in any of your scans so why do you continue to argue against this. You are now speculating with the whats in the factory, the best we can work with is that the above picture is copy and pasted throughout. He would be hard pushed to get even a couple of tonnes when all he has is hollowed out poles, I know there hollow because they have lights attached, over a tonne is also against the TP limit, Esquire was very specific on what that ment.

This is irrelevant. I never contested you couldn't shoot the drones -- just that you'd have to alter what you're firing at. I'm fine with them being distractions.

Also you're assuming stuff about tech that has nothing to do with "modern day" -- Alita's a freaking cyborg from hundreds of years in the future and her TUNED body and equipment are the peak of Tiphares technology. They're not grenades -- they're armed warheads. It's plain and simple. Your plan does not work. Warheads don't blow up until they arm themselves. Even modern day RPG tech works like that.

I was stating it just so where clear that they will hit the drones and on the matter of detonation.

http://videos.howstuffworks.com/discovery/49644-mythbusters-bullets-and-rockets-video.htm

A mythbuster proving that a bullet will detonate a warhead. Nemesis and Zealot are using alien guns that pierce Kherubim flesh as if it where normal, I am using the stats of advanced military guns with armour piercing rounds because anything would be speculation. I'veproven bullets will detonate warheads, saying it won't because of future tech is purely made up.

Okay, I am sick and tired of you repeatedly trying to call me out for "retroactively" doing something. This entire debate started with you talking about Bullets, so I talked about all the ways I could stop bullets. You THEN brought up more attacks after you pretended to leave me "set" in my response to you, which is benign worldplay to try to downplay my argument. YOU are the one who retroactively brought up deathstroke using his staff when you said your team fires on me with guns -- guns that Deathstroke DOES have, because Deathstroke uses guns all the time! If you want to call me out for retroactively ammending my statement, fine, but you did it first, because your opening argument was literally this:

I never said Deathstroke didn't fire his guns, Deathstroke firing the energy staff was after the first shoots had been fired and Jeffries had bunkered down, if there is any changes it is merely reacting to the set-up they see appear before him because of the different defenses he appears to have. You claiming that Jeffries would have increased the size of his cover because Terrific warned him about the energy lance right after I said Deathstroke was drawing it to fire was a retroactive change to the scenario, that is a fact. If go look at the comment, I said he draws it after he sees them trying to defend Jeffries so there was no change on my part only you.

You brought up bullets, so I responded to bullets. Stop being so pedantic, jeez.

What my team is doing: Terrific is setting up a barrier with 4 spheres and attacking with 3 (he can fly around and dodge and shoot with just 3, as I've shown in the scans), Alita is firing on your team while releasing drones, Jeffries is creating cover for my team and guns out of nearby materials -- whether it be Alita's bike or the metal in the warehouse.

For cover? To injure? That's the scale of his blasts. He's outright said he doesn't usually resort to lethal force, but 3 superhumans firing on him and his team is more than enough reason to atleast fire back. It's not like he's never attacked with near intent to kill before:

You have no idea how durable Nemesis or Zealot are, at best you know that they are faster than normal humans and there is a small army of those within the comic verse without enhanced durability so don't try and justify Terrific throwing away his morals here and know for this situation.

Pheromones are against the rules and you cited lots of other advantages, once you get back to me with durability feats the forcefield but until then it can only withstand a few standard bullets. Slades boomstick should have no problem against it and even his armour piercing rounds should go through it like butter.

The gravity fields Terrific's Spheres can make are powerful enough to stop the kinetic force of a speeding car (through SCIENCE):

It's literally turning kinetic force against itself -- which is why I said the durability limit allowed for it.

If your saying that your forcefields work by repelling kinetic energy that simpy won't fly. There is no tricky workaround for the durability limit, thats why phasing wasn't allowed. Otherwise we would have been swamped by phasers and people who can teleport out in object that comes near them.

Daken's pheromones seemed to be allowed in our fight, and I countered them at the time. My last fight is irrelevant, stop bringing it up.

I will because I believe the

You made stuff up. Terrific's blasts range in power from stunning a guy to blowing up a tank. Fit that into your calculations. The drones won't blow up in our faces because you used outdated tech in reference to futuristic drones that work like armed warheads rather than freaking grenades.

I've proven a bullet detonates a warhead and I believe it's horribly out of character for Terrific a member of the League to open up with anything that could potentially kill a normal.

I don't need to be patronized, bro. I will never take offense to anything you say, even if your arguments tire and frustrate me. I am coming off as hostile because I'm having to repeat myself a lot.

Your team doesn't even know who the weak link in the chain is. Your argument is based on a lot of supposition and prior knowledge you don't know. Slade should know about Mr. Terrific, for sure, but why don't you think the 5 foot 5 girl is a weak link instead of the guy who opens up the fight looking like Magneto?

Jeffries has been in, like, dozens of firefights -- he's just usually in Box so it's not very relevant. Again, you're making stuff up and assuming things beyond your knowledge.

In debates points get repeated a lot because they are heavily scrutinized you need to not let this get to you because constantly reading your displeasure at normal debating debating practises is not pleasant. I have not ignored your comments I addressed them but just not in the manner of feats, as stated when you kept claiming tank blasts despite his morals and his lack of knowledge on 2/3rds of my teams durability and only knowing Deathstrokes by 2nd hand information.

Actually a character that hasn't been in a firefight since he was tortured and held against his will by at least 2 different individuals and having been described as withdrawn is very relevant as you have him acting like a pro with certain tactics he either hasn't displayed or hasn't displayed since the trauma.

...Jeffries doesn't manipulate gunpowder. It's not within his powers of manipulating glass, plastic, or metal. He psionically creates "guns" and fires metal slugs psionically, like when he tosses a spear with enough force to destroy a sentinel:

No Caption Provided

What do you mean, never came across as useful in a standard fight? Box is Alpha Flight's strongest member. Da fuq.

He can't really give pre-nerf Magneto a run for his money because Magneto is much more generally powerful. He can alter larger amounts of metal, do it at longer ranges, lift more, and has super powerful EM shields that block basically everything under the sun. Magneto controls electromagnetism -- Jeffries is a tech nut who transmutes plastic/metal/glass. Similar, sometimes, but vastly different -- you don't ever see Magneto creating armies of robots, just like you don't see Jeffries picking up meteor sized hunks of iron.

My reading experience has Jeffries last creating robots for villians as a mind slave and a torture victim, he hasn't built anything like that since.

What do you mean it's not a part of your plan? You literally said you were using it to figure out what my team was doing and using that info to instruct Deathstroke to do something.

The info was to which side of the cover to shoot but I that was an example of something I don't need if you think about it. Jeffries will be clealry visible before he forms the barrier to a guy like Slade who shot Starfires neck while she was above the skyscraper skyline, as I said hardly crucial unlike your ability to form a barrier thick enough to stop multiple shots from an energy lance with the material on hand.

dodging a supersonic speedster isn't really spiderman level speed. Hypersonic, maybe. Spiderman's shot bullets out of the sky with his webbing -- something that only Alita's done on my team and Slade with Speedsters on yours, as far as I'm aware.

He reacted to the shooter which is your standard bullet timer feat with the webbing example, he does have Spider sense after all. One of his best is reacting from a long range bullet after it had been fired

though if you think that's the limit, then Slade tagging nearlight speed speedsters like Bart and Wally put him well out of this tournament's limits. But since those are PIS I think people just kind of write it off and let Deathstroke users use all his other feats.

Deathstroke reacts to speedsters for multiple reasons, most importantly the flashes rarely travel at top speeds and only use this against the event bads, enhanced reflexes, enhanced thinking speed as he always sees the world in slow motion and an obscene amount of skill he predicts how they will move and can react to things like changes in the air.

No Caption Provided

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#29 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

Holy crap the text inside the quote style. Man I hate that. Oh well, I'll have to weed out the parts you forgot to bold so I don't miss anything.

@dextersinister:

Me make stuff up? I am working off what you have shown which has shown to be restricted in area by a scan you provided where he needs to get close to a Sentinel and has never shown drawing material in from beyond a certain distance in any of your scans so why do you continue to argue against this. You are now speculating with the whats in the factory, the best we can work with is that the above picture is copy and pasted throughout. He would be hard pushed to get even a couple of tonnes when all he has is hollowed out poles, I know there hollow because they have lights attached, over a tonne is also against the TP limit, Esquire was very specific on what that ment.

Except for the part where I showed him literally stretching his powers out through a giant sized Danger Room or an entire warehouse or ships the size of an apartment complex or a giant base.

I'm not speculating what's in the factory. Even by your own guess of copy and pasting, let me show you what's in the picture:

No Caption Provided

Notice how with the red line, about ten feet apart, there is another table?

Notice how, in the blue line, we've got a giant 20 x 4 foot steel construction table.

Notice how there are tons of scaffolding and steel bars on the windows.

In this picture alone there is over a dozen tons of metal for Jeffries to work with. Every 10 feet! Jeffires can make a robot capable of taking blows from top end bricks out of less material, are you seriously trying to STILL argue that Jeffries A: Doesn't have the range to reach 10 feet B: doesn't have the power to create the wall or C: There isn't enough material? Because it's all patently wrong.

Even if Jeffries limit is restricted to a ton of steel at a time, he can still make the barrier. Esquire is the one who introduced me to Jeffries, he knows what's allowed, like you said. His ability technically isn't even TK -- it's transmutation and it's limited to specific materials. He can't lift anyone and crush them with a ton of force.

I was stating it just so where clear that they will hit the drones and on the matter of detonation.

http://videos.howstuffworks.com/discovery/49644-mythbusters-bullets-and-rockets-video.htm

A mythbuster proving that a bullet will detonate a warhead. Nemesis and Zealot are using alien guns that pierce Kherubim flesh as if it where normal, I am using the stats of advanced military guns with armour piercing rounds because anything would be speculation. I'veproven bullets will detonate warheads, saying it won't because of future tech is purely made up.

Oh man, I'm sure glad you posted this out of context video which ignores the earlier part of the episode when they OUTRIGHT STATE the RPG has to arm itself (RPGs do it by reaching a certain speed and distance as a safety feature for the firer). I have just now bought the episode off Amazon (2 bucks!) just so I could chop a clip out of the episode and post the part you so wonderfully neglected on youtube to prove how you're ignoring exactly what I'm saying and posting only a part of the episode to cover up context:

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It has to ARM before it will explode -- a bullet will not set it off by itself. The bees, which are clearly VASTLY more high tech than a simple RPG (they have their own freaking tracking computers) will not explode right next to my team if you shoot them, because they don't arm until they hit their target. I clearly showed them being destroyed and falling harmlessly to the ground in pieces. If you don't understand that a warhead has to arm before it can be forced to explode by hitting something (like a bullet) then I'm lost on how to explain it anymore. Hopefully readers will understand what I'm saying when your point about blowing them up in my face is an absolutely incorrect strategy.

I never said Deathstroke didn't fire his guns, Deathstroke firing the energy staff was after the first shoots had been fired and Jeffries had bunkered down, if there is any changes it is merely reacting to the set-up they see appear before him because of the different defenses he appears to have. You claiming that Jeffries would have increased the size of his cover because Terrific warned him about the energy lance right after I said Deathstroke was drawing it to fire was a retroactive change to the scenario, that is a fact. If go look at the comment, I said he draws it after he sees them trying to defend Jeffries so there was no change on my part only you.

Except you didn't. You just said "Deathstroke could blow him up using his energy lance," when I said he made a barrier -- you didn't say after he was done firing his guns. Heck, you said he'd be doing it while the other two fire their guns. Your bickering over semantics is tiresome. My retroactive changes are no different from yours -- heck, you just ASSUME Jeffries would make a weak wall only capable of defending gunfire when he naturally builds far more durable things on instinct like his Box robot. If you want to play semantics, why is Jeffries jobbing when making defensive cover for his team? This line of debate really shouldn't even be relevant.

I've proven a bullet detonates a warhead and I believe it's horribly out of character for Terrific a member of the League to open up with anything that could potentially kill a normal.

I addressed the bullet vs a warhead thing a dozen times, I'm not going to deal with it anymore. If you can't accept the fact that shooting alita's drones won't cause them to blow up then I give up. You're wrong, simple as that.

I'm pretty sure you're playing up the "normal" thing -- it's quite clear your team isn't normal considering we're getting dropped into a random supers fight. Terrific has literally thrown a guy into volcanic lake and left him there to die when he needed to:

No Caption Provided

You are really overplaying Terrific's morals here -- he isn't Batman or Superman. He's quite willing to kill in do or die situations and even if he WASN'T, that doesn't stop his blasts from being stronger than your KO durability -- if you want to limit him to that whatever, I don't care if the blasts KO or Kill. As I've said, they range in power from stunning someone to killing them. Terrific prefers not to kill -- against a known outright killer like Deathstroke trying to kill him back? Hardly. He's killed killers plenty.

I have not ignored your comments I addressed them but just not in the manner of feats, as stated when you kept claiming tank blasts despite his morals and his lack of knowledge on 2/3rds of my teams durability and only knowing Deathstrokes by 2nd hand information.

Actually a character that hasn't been in a firefight since he was tortured and held against his will by at least 2 different individuals and having been described as withdrawn is very relevant as you have him acting like a pro with certain tactics he either hasn't displayed or hasn't displayed since the trauma.

My reading experience has Jeffries last creating robots for villians as a mind slave and a torture victim, he hasn't built anything like that since.

Weapon X vol 2 happened back in 2004. Since then he's been dickin' around with the X-Club, which is an X-Man related group that hung out with them on Utopia. He was in the Uncanny X-Men as recent as 2010, subbing for Magento when he got tired:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And he made a couple of background cameos in AvX which was in 2012 -- Beast recruited him to join the X-club and look for a way to find a re-emergence in the X-gene after house of m. Here's the X-club basic info and it shows their most recent appearance. Jeffries isn't a weapon x mind controlled drone anymore.

Also, frankly, you don't really get to just tell me that I can't use his past feats because you once read that he was being tortured and mind controlled. I mean come on. Even nearly dead from Kaine's psionic feedback, directly after all the "mind control and torture" The Director put him through, he was still able to make a freaking wall. Jeffries isn't coming into this fight half dead and brain controlled, either. Seriously, this is a terrible argument to use to try to get me to throw out years worth of Jeffries feats.

The info was to which side of the cover to shoot but I that was an example of something I don't need if you think about it. Jeffries will be clealry visible before he forms the barrier to a guy like Slade who shot Starfires neck while she was above the skyscraper skyline, as I said hardly crucial unlike your ability to form a barrier thick enough to stop multiple shots from an energy lance with the material on hand.

We've already gone over this a dozen times. There's tons of material to work with, he's made constructs and robots out of freaking cars and scrap metal that were capable of handling marvel mid tier characters, you're 500 meters away. Your angle of attack is head on unless you run around the perimeter of the building because of our starting distance -- if you can't understand that then I guess I'll have to explain fading perspective. I'm not questioning deathstroke's aim, I'm saying he can't curve his blasts around corners or to the side.

What's your team doing to survive shots from Alita's crazy powerful rifle or Terrific's Tsphere blasts, again...? Your only argument so far is "Terrific wouldn't kill them!" which 1: Pretty much is not true and 2: Ignores Alita who's as good a shot as anyone here and has a similarly or more powerful weapon at her disposal. You keep talking about how powerful your guns are -- I've outright showed you mine. Destroying armored cars in one shot and ripping through reinforced concrete. All you've given me is "armor piercing" -- well okay.

He reacted to the shooter which is your standard bullet timer feat with the webbing example, he does have Spider sense after all. One of his best is reacting from a long range bullet after it had been fired

His best was shooting bullets out of the air with his webbing, actually. I know the scan you're talking about and that's not actually his best. The impressive thing about him dodging that rifle shot is he didn't know it was coming.

Deathstroke reacts to speedsters for multiple reasons, most importantly the flashes rarely travel at top speeds and only use this against the event bads, enhanced reflexes, enhanced thinking speed as he always sees the world in slow motion and an obscene amount of skill he predicts how they will move and can react to things like changes in the air.

No Caption Provided

How fast is this "speedster"? If he felt the air shift slightly doesn't that mean he was sub supersonic?

I mean it hardly matters, Deathstroke's got a million reaction feats, I just don't get how this one is impressive or relevant.

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#30 Edited by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

Except for the part where I showed him literally stretching his powers out through a giant sized Danger Room or an entire warehouse or ships the size of an apartment complex or a giant base.

I'm not speculating what's in the factory. Even by your own guess of copy and pasting, let me show you what's in the picture:

No Caption Provided

Notice how with the red line, about ten feet apart, there is another table?

Notice how, in the blue line, we've got a giant 20 x 4 foot steel construction table.

Notice how there are tons of scaffolding and steel bars on the windows.

In this picture alone there is over a dozen tons of metal for Jeffries to work with. Every 10 feet! Jeffires can make a robot capable of taking blows from top end bricks out of less material, are you seriously trying to STILL argue that Jeffries A: Doesn't have the range to reach 10 feet B: doesn't have the power to create the wall or C: There isn't enough material? Because it's all patently wrong.

Even if Jeffries limit is restricted to a ton of steel at a time, he can still make the barrier. Esquire is the one who introduced me to Jeffries, he knows what's allowed, like you said. His ability technically isn't even TK -- it's transmutation and it's limited to specific materials. He can't lift anyone and crush them with a ton of force.

Except that those are wooden worktable and the only metal on them would be those covering the electric socket, the best way to picture the weight of the material is picture what it would fit with your minds eye. Take the metal in that picture and you couldn't even make a decent climbing frame and that frame wouldn't be fit for use because as I've stated earlier those frames are only there to support the weight of a couple of lights. Transmutation on top of telekenesis, he is listed as having the ability to psionically move an object with his mind which is telekinesis, a specialised form of telekinesis but telekinesis none the less.

This is a workshop for building mannequins, not a steel works.

Oh man, I'm sure glad you posted this out of context video which ignores the earlier part of the episode when they OUTRIGHT STATE the RPG has to arm itself (RPGs do it by reaching a certain speed and distance as a safety feature for the firer). I have just now bought the episode off Amazon (2 bucks!) just so I could chop a clip out of the episode and post the part you so wonderfully neglected on youtube to prove how you're ignoring exactly what I'm saying and posting only a part of the episode to cover up context:

Loading Video...

It has to ARM before it will explode -- a bullet will not set it off by itself. The bees, which are clearly VASTLY more high tech than a simple RPG (they have their own freaking tracking computers) will not explode right next to my team if you shoot them, because they don't arm until they hit their target. I clearly showed them being destroyed and falling harmlessly to the ground in pieces. If you don't understand that a warhead has to arm before it can be forced to explode by hitting something (like a bullet) then I'm lost on how to explain it anymore. Hopefully readers will understand what I'm saying when your point about blowing them up in my face is an absolutely incorrect strategy.

I'm glad you don't understand how an rpg or detonator works. The reason the rpg explodes is because the bullet sets off the explosive. For the bullet not to set off the rocket then the explosive material would have to be non-reactive to either heat or shock, an rpg reacts to the bullet which has taken the place of the detonator except in are scenario we have a payload that has much less armour than an rpg. That video is also free on their website. So again all you have is claiming future tech won't explode because it's future tech. The video tells us why the rocket detonates from shock and you cut off the video in the part where he describes how it can still detonate if handled improperly, no where in your video does it even come close to describing how the impact of a bullet won't detonate the rocket.

Except you didn't. You just said "Deathstroke could blow him up using his energy lance," when I said he made a barrier -- you didn't say after he was done firing his guns. Heck, you said he'd be doing it while the other two fire their guns. Your bickering over semantics is tiresome. My retroactive changes are no different from yours -- heck, you just ASSUME Jeffries would make a weak wall only capable of defending gunfire when he naturally builds far more durable things on instinct like his Box robot. If you want to play semantics, why is Jeffries jobbing when making defensive cover for his team? This line of debate really shouldn't even be relevant.

I said he draws and fires after they had their defenses tied up defending Jeffries which would at that point would have included Alita reacting to the initial bullet fire, you complain when I've needed to reiterate points but it seems I still need to do that.

I addressed the bullet vs a warhead thing a dozen times, I'm not going to deal with it anymore. If you can't accept the fact that shooting alita's drones won't cause them to blow up then I give up. You're wrong, simple as that.

See above

I'm pretty sure you're playing up the "normal" thing -- it's quite clear your team isn't normal considering we're getting dropped into a random supers fight. Terrific has literally thrown a guy into volcanic lake and left him there to die when he needed to:

No Caption Provided

You are really overplaying Terrific's morals here -- he isn't Batman or Superman. He's quite willing to kill in do or die situations and even if he WASN'T, that doesn't stop his blasts from being stronger than your KO durability -- if you want to limit him to that whatever, I don't care if the blasts KO or Kill. As I've said, they range in power from stunning someone to killing them. Terrific prefers not to kill -- against a known outright killer like Deathstroke trying to kill him back? Hardly. He's killed killers plenty.

Don't be ridiculous and claim that Terrific will make a lethal opening salvo by using a fight at the end of the arc where he has used non-lethal methods all the way up to that point and he flips the villain into a lake after all other resources have been expended and it's the only way for him to survive. Even Batman has done things like that and the character the Tomorrow Thief is not listed as being dead, massive difference between flipping a man into a lake of scalding water as a last resort and killing people as soon as they open fire. You are also using Deathstroke as the benchmark and justification for using lethal fire on 2 strangers.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And he made a couple of background cameos in AvX which was in 2012 -- Beast recruited him to join the X-club and look for a way to find a re-emergence in the X-gene after house of m. Here's the X-club basic info and it shows their most recent appearance. Jeffries isn't a weapon x mind controlled drone anymore.

Also, frankly, you don't really get to just tell me that I can't use his past feats because you once read that he was being tortured and mind controlled. I mean come on. Even nearly dead from Kaine's psionic feedback, directly after all the "mind control and torture" The Director put him through, he was still able to make a freaking wall. Jeffries isn't coming into this fight half dead and brain controlled, either. Seriously, this is a terrible argument to use to try to get me to throw out years worth of Jeffries feats.

Make a wall! You have him making Sentinels and multiple guns. The last is a feat he hasn't even been shown to have ever done. As shown above flinging metal shards is the closest he has ever come to that.

We've already gone over this a dozen times. There's tons of material to work with, he's made constructs and robots out of freaking cars and scrap metal that were capable of handling marvel mid tier characters, you're 500 meters away. Your angle of attack is head on unless you run around the perimeter of the building because of our starting distance -- if you can't understand that then I guess I'll have to explain fading perspective. I'm not questioning deathstroke's aim, I'm saying he can't curve his blasts around corners or to the side.

What's your team doing to survive shots from Alita's crazy powerful rifle or Terrific's Tsphere blasts, again...? Your only argument so far is "Terrific wouldn't kill them!" which 1: Pretty much is not true and 2: Ignores Alita who's as good a shot as anyone here and has a similarly or more powerful weapon at her disposal. You keep talking about how powerful your guns are -- I've outright showed you mine. Destroying armored cars in one shot and ripping through reinforced concrete. All you've given me is "armor piercing" -- well okay.

Tonnes is a gross overstatement as I've pointed out earlier, this is a workshop for creating mannequins not a steel mill. The telepathic limit is also 1 tonne. He is also using an energy lance but even then.

No Caption Provided

Not claiming he's using that gun incase you you think I'm retroactively using another weapon.

What is there to understand, I've provided bullet dodging feats and have been targeting a character who is the only one here incapable of doing the same. I have an energy lance and guns, what more do I need when by the rules that's all I should need to draw blood if I hit the right spot.

Why do you think I'm using characters with swords? Against most bullet dodgers bullets never hit, you need feats like Deathstrokes showing him aiming where a character is going to be but even then I haven't made claim that my characters hit your bullet dodgers and I've adressed the bugs with knowledge on the inner workings of an rpgs explosive content not on it's fuse being set. But if you really want to have Terrific act out of character and go for blood from the start with tank destroying blasts then:

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It won't do much good against an energy absorbing sword. The first scan was Captain Atom in the Wildstorm universe who was stronger than when he was in the DC Prime universe and destroying it simply be being there.

His best was shooting bullets out of the air with his webbing, actually. I know the scan you're talking about and that's not actually his best. The impressive thing about him dodging that rifle shot is he didn't know it was coming.

He did know it was coming, it was clearly stated within a text box that his Spider Sense kicked in.

Deathstroke reacts to speedsters for multiple reasons, most importantly the flashes rarely travel at top speeds and only use this against the event bads, enhanced reflexes, enhanced thinking speed as he always sees the world in slow motion and an obscene amount of skill he predicts how they will move and can react to things like changes in the air.

No Caption Provided

How fast is this "speedster"? If he felt the air shift slightly doesn't that mean he was sub supersonic?

I mean it hardly matters, Deathstroke's got a million reaction feats, I just don't get how this one is impressive or relevant.

You questioned how he reacts to speedster while remaining within tournament limits, this was part of the answer.

I thought it was obvious, the page was to show that he is skilled enough to react to the shift in the air and make a grab for someones neck on that alone on top of the other things listed

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#31 Posted by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

You will most likely focus heavily on the rpg section because multiple explosives going off in your teams face is a dealbreaker.

Explosives go off primarily because of heat from the fuse within the device. If a bullet where to be introduced to the material within an explosive device it would detonate (normally composition B or gunpowder if your on a budget) because of the heat generated by the impact. The insects are small so there armour would be negligible and a bullet coming into contact would go through the thorax unlike that lion who was awfully precise on cutting that part.

You said they haven't been triggered but you need to be clear on what that means exactly. An explosive can go off to anything from being shaken to coming into contact with the open air but to prevent premature detonation most go off when introduced to a certain amount of heat and the oxygen provided when free of it's container both of which a bullet can provide and the reaction from those little insects was very volatile.

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#32 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister:

Except that those are wooden worktable and the only metal on them would be those covering the electric socket, the best way to picture the weight of the material is picture what it would fit with your minds eye. Take the metal in that picture and you couldn't even make a decent climbing frame and that frame wouldn't be fit for use because as I've stated earlier those frames are only there to support the weight of a couple of lights. Transmutation on top of telekenesis, he is listed as having the ability to psionically move an object with his mind which is telekinesis, a specialised form of telekinesis but telekinesis none the less.

This is a workshop for building mannequins, not a steel works.

I never said it was a steel mill, I said there was plenty of material to work with and there is.

I'm glad you don't understand how an rpg or detonator works. The reason the rpg explodes is because the bullet sets off the explosive. For the bullet not to set off the rocket then the explosive material would have to be non-reactive to either heat or shock, an rpg reacts to the bullet which has taken the place of the detonator except in are scenario we have a payload that has much less armour than an rpg. That video is also free on their website. So again all you have is claiming future tech won't explode because it's future tech. The video tells us why the rocket detonates from shock and you cut off the video in the part where he describes how it can still detonate if handled improperly, no where in your video does it even come close to describing how the impact of a bullet won't detonate the rocket.

...The RPG. Has. To. Arm. First. You can't just shoot an rpg rocket with a bullet while it's lying on the ground and have it explode. Bullets aren't even hot enough to set Gasoline on fire without heavy tinkering. The Bullet's heat has nothing to do with it -- it's the impact on the nose. That's why they had to line it up so perfectly in the scenario.

The reason I'm saying my future tech won't explode is because I've shown it being destroyed and not exploding until it hits its target. You're vastly overassuming something about my stuff that I've shown to be false.

I did not cut off the scene before they said anything else -- the very, very next thing they do is take the RPG and blow up a trailer with it. There's nothing about handling or improper explosions.

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You don't get that the Rockets arm during their second, midair propelling that causes them to increase in speed. This is why, during the experiment, the rocket launcher has to fire from way behind the dummy -- if it was right next to the dummy, it wouldn't ignite. Here's a simpler explanation:

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Notice how she displays it already in air and states that the second propelling ARMS THE ROCKET? You know why the rockets arm in midair? Because they'd be an absurd safety hazard if they were liable to blow up on impact while being carried around in trucks or in live combat (with, you know, dudes shooting at you) and whatnot. You can't just shoot a modern combat explosive and have to explode -- that's not how they work.

If that were the issue, the Mythbusters wouldn't have had to fire the RPG to set it off with the bullets -- they could've just hung it on a line or set it up on a post and fired the bullet at it. But that's NOT how it works -- the RPG has to be fired and accelerate to a certain speed so it can arm itself before the bullet hits it. If what you said were true -- the heat from a Bullet will set off an RPG no matter where it is, then the Mythbusters wouldn't have had to set up that complicated rig to get it to explode at the right place. Your own video outright proves that you can't just shoot an RPG and have it go off!

They have to arm, and there's nothing suggesting my Missile Bees and Arachnos arm as soon as Alita launches them -- I've outright SHOWN that they don't explode on destruction until they hit their target, which proves that THAT'S WHEN THEY ARM. You're grasping at the thinnest of straws

I said he draws and fires after they had their defenses tied up defending Jeffries which would at that point would have included Alita reacting to the initial bullet fire, you complain when I've needed to reiterate points but it seems I still need to do that.

Alita's actions can be done simultaneously, though? I said she took point, started firing, and sent her drones out. These are all things she's capable of doing at the same time. I've also said Terrific makes his field (which he can do with as few as 1 sphere, but I went with 4 so there couldn't be an argument) and uses his other spheres to fire on you. You never said Deathstroke fires after all of this -- you just said he blows "him" (assuming Jeffries) to bits, which I contested. I didn't mind because almost everyone is prone to retooling their combat strategy as things progress, but you had to start harping on retroactive changes. Which is ironic given the later parts of your post.

Don't be ridiculous and claim that Terrific will make a lethal opening salvo by using a fight at the end of the arc where he has used non-lethal methods all the way up to that point and he flips the villain into a lake after all other resources have been expended and it's the only way for him to survive. Even Batman has done things like that and the character the Tomorrow Thief is not listed as being dead, massive difference between flipping a man into a lake of scalding water as a last resort and killing people as soon as they open fire. You are also using Deathstroke as the benchmark and justification for using lethal fire on 2 strangers.

...It's freaking Deathstroke and 2 people working with Deathstroke attacking him and his team. As I said, if you don't think Terrific is using full force, kill you as soon as possible blasts then FINE, he goes for maiming/KOing -- I don't care, either is effective.

Also 2 "strangers" who are clearly trying to kill him and working with one of the most notorious killers in the world. Again, you overplay the scenario and are banking far too much on a guy who's pretty ruthless for a JSA hero.

Make a wall! You have him making Sentinels and multiple guns. The last is a feat he hasn't even been shown to have ever done. As shown above flinging metal shards is the closest he has ever come to that.

Yeah, I know, right? You think a guy who can make high tech space ships, submarines, airplanes, boats, robots, suits of armor and weapons faster than it takes him to fall 10 feet can't make a sturdy wall given the same amount of time. I've also outright showed him making lots of guns, twice? Do I need to repost the scans or something? Did they not show up for you? I can see them. He's standing over Galactus in one of them, lol.

Not claiming he's using that gun incase you you think I'm retroactively using another weapon.

The thing is, I never questioned Deathstroke's aim -- even though firing on someone who wasn't aware of him isn't the greatest sniper feat. I don't know what you're trying to prove, really.

What is there to understand, I've provided bullet dodging feats and have been targeting a character who is the only one here incapable of doing the same. I have an energy lance and guns, what more do I need when by the rules that's all I should need to draw blood if I hit the right spot.

See, you keep talking about bullets -- I just wanted to use the weapon X scan of him stopping a point blank bullet from killing a director. Fine, here's Jeffries "dodging" several laser firing drones being controlled by a crazy rogue AI:

No Caption Provided

He wasn't in control of any of this either, so it's pure dodging! The AI was acting friendly towards him and he was trying to reason with it instead of attacking it when it turned rogue.

Now I know, "robotic drones don't have the same aim Deathstroke, Zealot, and Nemesis have!" but, I mean, I don't even think Jeffries HAS to dodge in our scenario. You just keep bringing it up so whatever, there's a dumb, irrelevant feat.

Why do you think I'm using characters with swords? Against most bullet dodgers bullets never hit, you need feats like Deathstrokes showing him aiming where a character is going to be but even then I haven't made claim that my characters hit your bullet dodgers and I've adressed the bugs with knowledge on the inner workings of an rpgs explosive content not on it's fuse being set. But if you really want to have Terrific act out of character and go for blood from the start with tank destroying blasts then:

Oh ho, what's this? Your team is using swords! But I thought you said:

I will give you the T-spheres and Alita defending Jeffries but you have six guns aiming for him

That sounds to me like all 6 of your hands are occupied, doesn't it? If Terrific and Alita are firing on you at the exact same time you're firing on us (they are, I've already said Terrific is using 3 of his spheres to attack and 4 to defend, so there's no contradiction in me saying we're both firing on each other from the start of the match), how are you also blocking the blasts with your swords while firing with six guns at us? Did Nemesis and Zealot grow a third arm or is this...a retroactive response?

Thing is, I don't mind you bringing it up because, as we detail our strategy, your characters could be smart enough to know to pull out a sword and drop a gun while my team starts to fire on you. Just like my characters are smart enough not to intentionally put up a shoddy wall or not using their ability to attack at range at all. I just think it was always silly and overreactive of you to harp on retroactively amending what's going on as the fight unfolds.

That said, both swords absorb heat -- I don't believe Terrific's force blasts are heat. And also, one shot disarms your character in the second scan so...sitting duck?

He did know it was coming, it was clearly stated within a text box that his Spider Sense kicked in.

His spider sense is specifically for things he doesn't know is coming, though? We're kind of off on a tangent, really. I'll drop it.

You questioned how he reacts to speedster while remaining within tournament limits, this was part of the answer.

I thought it was obvious, the page was to show that he is skilled enough to react to the shift in the air and make a grab for someones neck on that alone on top of the other things listed

My point is there was no cap on reaction time set by the tournament, so it was all irrelevant -- if there was then Deathstroke probably wouldn't be allowed if you took his more PIS-y feats into consideration.

I was merely questioning what said scan proves regardless of that context cuz, well, you posted it. I might as well respond, right?

@dextersinister said:

You will most likely focus heavily on the rpg section because multiple explosives going off in your teams face is a dealbreaker.

Explosives go off primarily because of heat from the fuse within the device. If a bullet where to be introduced to the material within an explosive device it would detonate (normally composition B or gunpowder if your on a budget) because of the heat generated by the impact. The insects are small so there armour would be negligible and a bullet coming into contact would go through the thorax unlike that lion who was awfully precise on cutting that part.

You said they haven't been triggered but you need to be clear on what that means exactly. An explosive can go off to anything from being shaken to coming into contact with the open air but to prevent premature detonation most go off when introduced to a certain amount of heat and the oxygen provided when free of it's container both of which a bullet can provide and the reaction from those little insects was very volatile.

This isn't true, though. The bullets set it off because the impact sets off the warhead, not the heat. RPGs are specifically designed NOT to be set off by stray fire so they aren't a liability to carry into combat. Bullets also don't generate nearly the same heat, on impact, as the ignition fuse that arms the weapons. Again, the RPG/Warhead HAS to be armed to go off, you can't force the ignition switch to arm by using the heat of a bullet hitting the nose.

You're treating all explosives similarly when ones that work with activated warheads aren't just sitting there ready to explode at any given moment.

The missile bee is specifically a missile. It says so right in the name and against in the description in the scan I posted. They're not just flying grenades ready to pop the second something hits them, as I've shown.

PS: Bullets don't provide enough heat to ignite anything on their own, even if that WAS how missiles operated. They can't even set a propane tank can with perfect oxygen/fuel ratios. Mythbusters proved this in their james bond episode -- they had to resort to incendiary rounds and a gatling gun to do it. You've already stated you're using "armor piercing" rounds so they don't provide the necessary heat.

We're just arguing in circles now. You think Jeffries dies in the first volley and can't use his powers on anything and I disagree. You think Terrific won't even TRY to harm your team significantly, which I disagree. You think my bees will explode in my face and I think that's downright laughable. If neither of us are ceding any of these points (and I'm not as I find your points absurd -- it's like you're arguing my team for me) then we can't move on with the debate.

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#33 Edited by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

Except that those are wooden worktable and the only metal on them would be those covering the electric socket, the best way to picture the weight of the material is picture what it would fit with your minds eye. Take the metal in that picture and you couldn't even make a decent climbing frame and that frame wouldn't be fit for use because as I've stated earlier those frames are only there to support the weight of a couple of lights. Transmutation on top of telekenesis, he is listed as having the ability to psionically move an object with his mind which is telekinesis, a specialised form of telekinesis but telekinesis none the less.

This is a workshop for building mannequins, not a steel works.

I never said it was a steel mill, I said there was plenty of material to work with and there is.

Yes there are materials to work with but not the dozens of tonnes you claimed, they wouldn't have wastage like that in such an environment.

...The RPG. Has. To. Arm. First. You can't just shoot an rpg rocket with a bullet while it's lying on the ground and have it explode. Bullets aren't even hot enough to set Gasoline on fire without heavy tinkering. The Bullet's heat has nothing to do with it -- it's the impact on the nose. That's why they had to line it up so perfectly in the scenario.

There is a reason Gasoline is a poor mans explosive normally used by rioters and not the military. There is no reason you should be comparing it with the more reactive substances within incendiary devices that would react if struck by a bullet, someone would be dead upon ignition if they had this stuff in their petrol tank.

On another armour piercing bullets in small arms contains depleted uranium within the shell which causes intense heat upon impact.

The reason I'm saying my future tech won't explode is because I've shown it being destroyed and not exploding until it hits its target. You're vastly overassuming something about my stuff that I've shown to be false.

You've shown the device carrying the explosive being swiped in a very specific location which is clearly the case but which you have yet to comment on, the swipes wouldn't be heated unlike a bullet. You still haven't explained why a bullet wouldn't detonate the explosive material.

I did not cut off the scene before they said anything else -- the very, very next thing they do is take the RPG and blow up a trailer with it. There's nothing about handling or improper explosions.

Your videos aren't working but the very very next thing after your original 31second cut off point a few seconds is him claiming that like any explosive device it's dangerous if you do something stupid with it and then not letting the team handle it while he sets it up.

You don't get that the Rockets arm during their second, midair propelling that causes them to increase in speed. This is why, during the experiment, the rocket launcher has to fire from way behind the dummy -- if it was right next to the dummy, it wouldn't ignite. Here's a simpler explanation:

Notice how she displays it already in air and states that the second propelling ARMS THE ROCKET? You know why the rockets arm in midair? Because they'd be an absurd safety hazard if they were liable to blow up on impact while being carried around in trucks or in live combat (with, you know, dudes shooting at you) and whatnot. You can't just shoot a modern combat explosive and have to explode -- that's not how they work.

If that were the issue, the Mythbusters wouldn't have had to fire the RPG to set it off with the bullets -- they could've just hung it on a line or set it up on a post and fired the bullet at it. But that's NOT how it works -- the RPG has to be fired and accelerate to a certain speed so it can arm itself before the bullet hits it. If what you said were true -- the heat from a Bullet will set off an RPG no matter where it is, then the Mythbusters wouldn't have had to set up that complicated rig to get it to explode at the right place. Your own video outright proves that you can't just shoot an RPG and have it go off!

If they shot a rocket a rocket while it is stationary that would have looked shit and destroyed the very expensive launch gear. Basic science is on my side, if you shoot a rocket with a bullet it will detonate the material inside, the armour of a rocket can stop a standard bullet from penetrating but these aren't standard bullets and your insects aren't plated rockets

Alita's actions can be done simultaneously, though? I said she took point, started firing, and sent her drones out. These are all things she's capable of doing at the same time. I've also said Terrific makes his field (which he can do with as few as 1 sphere, but I went with 4 so there couldn't be an argument) and uses his other spheres to fire on you. You never said Deathstroke fires after all of this -- you just said he blows "him" (assuming Jeffries) to bits, which I contested. I didn't mind because almost everyone is prone to retooling their combat strategy as things progress, but you had to start harping on retroactive changes. Which is ironic given the later parts of your post.

Below is the words you used

How does the scenario go down? The fight starts off with Terrific creating a force field for him and Jeffries while Jeffries transmutes some cover. While he's doing it, Terrific tells him to make it stronger than usual because Deathstroke has an energy staff

Above is you telling Jeffries to make his cover stronger based on a tactic I will use on seeing them defend Jeffries from bullet fire, a tactic that you yourself did not prepare for but tried to have your characters retroactively prepare for. Stop denying this.

...It's freaking Deathstroke and 2 people working with Deathstroke attacking him and his team. As I said, if you don't think Terrific is using full force, kill you as soon as possible blasts then FINE, he goes for maiming/KOing -- I don't care, either is effective.

Also 2 "strangers" who are clearly trying to kill him and working with one of the most notorious killers in the world. Again, you overplay the scenario and are banking far too much on a guy who's pretty ruthless for a JSA hero.

They won't be anywhere near as effective against characters that are a lot more durable than your standard human taking kicks from high tonners. I can provide scans but you probably already know this which is why you argued that someone you claimed was a good guy using tank busting blasts from the start.

Incorrect, he is one of the best killer in the world who will never back down from a mission and has actually helped save the world not the most notorious, the only moment that comes close to ruthlessness is against an opponent who Terrific has expended all his resources trying to capture rather than kill, who has Terrific trapped in an inhospitable enviroment and who potentially dies in the only way the Terrific can save himself (guys not even listed as being dead on the wiki).

Here's a method that makes more sense and much more likely than Terrific killing straight up killing someone. Instead of resorting to lethal methods Terrific takes his team and leaves, he loses a fight you lose the fight by default but it is much much more in character.

Yeah, I know, right? You think a guy who can make high tech space ships, submarines, airplanes, boats, robots, suits of armor and weapons faster than it takes him to fall 10 feet can't make a sturdy wall given the same amount of time. I've also outright showed him making lots of guns, twice? Do I need to repost the scans or something? Did they not show up for you? I can see them. He's standing over Galactus in one of them, lol.

I never compalined about the wall it was the bloody sentinels and multiple guns automatic guns that pop up within moments despite the lack of resources and the cap on his TK. A submarine really? The only scan I need is this one, the one you provided, The one where he whines to Cyke about if only he had time to build a robot when you have him building these things within moments

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The thing is, I never questioned Deathstroke's aim -- even though firing on someone who wasn't aware of him isn't the greatest sniper feat. I don't know what you're trying to prove, really.

You brought in fading perspective, which will not be an issue. This is one of multiple times where you questioned me then claimed ignorance to what I was answering.

He wasn't in control of any of this either, so it's pure dodging! The AI was acting friendly towards him and he was trying to reason with it instead of attacking it when it turned rogue.

Now I know, "robotic drones don't have the same aim Deathstroke, Zealot, and Nemesis have!" but, I mean, I don't even think Jeffries HAS to dodge in our scenario. You just keep bringing it up so whatever, there's a dumb, irrelevant feat.

That

Why do you think I'm using characters with swords? Against most bullet dodgers bullets never hit, you need feats like Deathstrokes showing him aiming where a character is going to be but even then I haven't made claim that my characters hit your bullet dodgers and I've adressed the bugs with knowledge on the inner workings of an rpgs explosive content not on it's fuse being set. But if you really want to have Terrific act out of character and go for blood from the start with tank destroying blasts then:

Oh ho, what's this? Your team is using swords! But I thought you said:

I will give you the T-spheres and Alita defending Jeffries but you have six guns aiming for him

That sounds to me like all 6 of your hands are occupied, doesn't it? If Terrific and Alita are firing on you at the exact same time you're firing on us (they are, I've already said Terrific is using 3 of his spheres to attack and 4 to defend, so there's no contradiction in me saying we're both firing on each other from the start of the match), how are you also blocking the blasts with your swords while firing with six guns at us? Did Nemesis and Zealot grow a third arm or is this...a retroactive response?

I would say you have a point but then again did I not say once Deathstroke goes for Jeffries in cover the other 2 would handle Alita and Terrific why would they keep firing on Jeffries in cover? and are you actually trying to use Mr Majestic a superman clone who has moved planets disarming my character as some sort of low showing.

His spider sense is specifically for things he doesn't know is coming, though? We're kind of off on a tangent, really. I'll drop it.

Incorrect his Spider Sense actually enhances his reflexes and and is listed as the reason he can dodge automatic fire despite being aware of the automatic fire.

My point is there was no cap on reaction time set by the tournament, so it was all irrelevant -- if there was then Deathstroke probably wouldn't be allowed if you took his more PIS-y feats into consideration.

I was merely questioning what said scan proves regardless of that context cuz, well, you posted it. I might as well respond, right?

Reflexes=reaction time otherwise we would have characters that are literally untouchable when standing still. One of the things of which there actually is no cap on is skill which is almost a tangible quality within the comicverse with characters like Cap being able to hold there own against Spiderman because of it.

The scan followed your question on how he was able to react to speedsters, you responded in a questioning manner as if I had provided it for no reason.

This isn't true, though. The bullets set it off because the impact sets off the warhead, not the heat. RPGs are specifically designed NOT to be set off by stray fire so they aren't a liability to carry into combat. Bullets also don't generate nearly the same heat, on impact, as the ignition fuse that arms the weapons. Again, the RPG/Warhead HAS to be armed to go off, you can't force the ignition switch to arm by using the heat of a bullet hitting the nose.

You're treating all explosives similarly when ones that work with activated warheads aren't just sitting there ready to explode at any given moment.

The missile bee is specifically a missile. It says so right in the name and against in the description in the scan I posted. They're not just flying grenades ready to pop the second something hits them, as I've shown.

PS: Bullets don't provide enough heat to ignite anything on their own, even if that WAS how missiles operated. They can't even set a propane tank can with perfect oxygen/fuel ratios. Mythbusters proved this in their james bond episode -- they had to resort to incendiary rounds and a gatling gun to do it. You've already stated you're using "armor piercing" rounds so they don't provide the necessary heat.

We're just arguing in circles now. You think Jeffries dies in the first volley and can't use his powers on anything and I disagree. You think Terrific won't even TRY to harm your team significantly, which I disagree. You think my bees will explode in my face and I think that's downright laughable. If neither of us are ceding any of these points (and I'm not as I find your points absurd -- it's like you're arguing my team for me) then we can't move on with the debate.

You saying I am treating all explosive similarly is terribly hypocritical on your part when you compared gasoline with materials that are actually used in explosive devices outside of a riot.

It shouldn't take long for you to look into the inner workings of these things and find out that I am right and that a bullet will set off the materials used within the vast majority of explosive devices.

You have Jeffries manipulating and organizing tonnes of materials and building multiple complex things within moments not just a bloody wall, despite that being above the TK limit, not enough materials within reach and terrible speculation on what he is capable of. A character who is being shielded by the couple of tonnes of the same material of which you are also trying to use to build other things while he is in a forcefield, a forcefield which is featless and even then can't hold up to a bullet let alone a discharge from an energy lance.

You had Terrific opening with a lethal salvo on the basis of him throwing a character to a comic book death (don't see the body death) when he would be much more likely to turn around and leave with his team before doing that. This is far from the same scenario where he is trapped and moments from being killed by character he can do nothing to stop bar throwing him to this potential death.

Of course your going to laugh against the bees, one of those awkward laughs, it's crippling disavantage if they actually go off, you have mentioned something hitting them multiple times but you know yourself and it's pretty clear that those hits target the exact same spot with precise accuracy and with a swipe not a super heated bullet.

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Section six is where the explosive are contained and would go off if an armour piercing bullet hit it. The thorax on your bees insects is the largest part which he never touches and unlike the lion the bullets won't care if the explosives go off.

As I've already mentioned earlier armour piercing ammo is intensely hot to allow it to penetrate better so you are wrong on that one as well.

Spin it how you like, if I know reasons in your characters history on why they would not do certain things then I will point them out. I would be a terrible debater if I let you get away with Terrific firing tank destroying blasts from the get go which you still haven't provided unless it was that scan of an armoured car and you where just overselling it or highlighting that Jeffries mental stability has decreased since his Alpha Flight days.

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#34 Edited by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

Me and Dredeuced seem to have more written than every other 2nd round match combined so far.

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#35 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry, I'll get my next response up later today. This particular debate has just been tiresome and I, unfairly to you, put it on the backburner for a bit.

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#36 Posted by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry, I'll get my next response up later today. This particular debate has just been tiresome and I, unfairly to you, put it on the backburner for a bit.

That's no problem it's part of the reason I didn't enter Sovereigns tournament, replying to multiple points in multiple posts/forums can get on top of you.

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#37 Edited by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll leave one last comment final thought style before the day ends.

When I picked characters I choose swordsmen people who use swords because within the genre bullets never hit, every named hero and his mother can dodge bullets which is why I was surprised to see someone who doesn't have the ridiculous amount of skill and olympic level reflexes that is so common.

So I pushed at Jeffries like a blood hound

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This appears to be the best dodging feat we have, although you described it as him dodging lasers, I'm selling this short because it's really bad this is the sort of dodging feat you would get from a character such as Lois Lane or Mary Jane, they avoid the fire simply by running away with no impressive reflexive showing you get when someone moves out of the way of a bullet that was actually going to hit them. Imagine how different this scenario would be if the robots hadn't been programmed by Stormtroopers and had shot straight at the door instead of hitting the entire frame.

It also goes against any idea of him manipulating metal quickly because those are just basic drones, there should be no reason why he wouldn't manipulate them if he could because the the A.I. is not stored on any of them.

On robotic accuracy Terrific always seems to be holding his T-Spheres when they fire in the scans you provided.

In case I may have not posted enough scans to display skill. Zealot is so skilled that she is fighting Midnighter the guy with the broken computer, he resorts to using a weapon after taking a kick to the face and when they use weapons a 3 hour fight is over in moments.

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Nemesis is as skilled or almost as skilled as Zealot, Zealot had tarined her for thousand of years after all. This scan is directly after the one where she flings Zavant at Zealot, you can tell by Grifter the most skilled Marksman in the Wildstorm universes remark. She blocked his fire while in another fight with her wrist mounted forcefield and then leapfrogs the fire to take him down.

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After I have pressed the advantage against Jeffries these 2 and Deathstroke should be able to overwhelm the other 2 if they continue to dodge their fire. Deathstroke has the standard virtually indestructible promethium blade but Zealot has a Kusar blade that can cut through Supermen level characters with ease

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Nemesis on the other hand has 2 Creation blades, parts of a universe destroying machine that can literally cut though anything and kill anything. They where the only things that could hurt Tao when he had achieved godlike powers and was an abstract being, he was left almost powerless while they where embedded within his body

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#38 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister:

@dextersinister:

Yes there are materials to work with but not the dozens of tonnes you claimed, they wouldn't have wastage like that in such an environment.

I think you're generally underestimating A: How heavy steel is and B: how much material lays about in a factory, especially a .3 square mile factory. It's a very large area with lots of stuff to work with. Support beams alone would be multiple tons of metal.

There is a reason Gasoline is a poor mans explosive normally used by rioters and not the military. There is no reason you should be comparing it with the more reactive substances within incendiary devices that would react if struck by a bullet, someone would be dead upon ignition if they had this stuff in their petrol tank.

On another armour piercing bullets in small arms contains depleted uranium within the shell which causes intense heat upon impact.

This is actually my point though -- one of the reasons Gasoline or other natural gases aren't used for weapons is that they're volatile and easy to set off -- yet bullets do not have the heat to set them off. You think stable military weaponry goes off from stray gun fire? Of course not, it's a ridiculous assumption.

Proof that your team is using depleted uranium bullets and ALSO proof that they cause high levels of heat on impact -- Depleted uranium is used for its heavier mass compared to lead to pierce armor, as far as I'm aware it has nothing to do with heat.

You've shown the device carrying the explosive being swiped in a very specific location which is clearly the case but which you have yet to comment on, the swipes wouldn't be heated unlike a bullet. You still haven't explained why a bullet wouldn't detonate the explosive material.

Bullets aren't actually that hot, though? ESPECIALLY after travelling 500 meters -- they lose much more heat from circulation travelling through the air than they gain in friction.

I have explained why a bullet wouldn't detonate modern explosives -- they're inert until armed due to safety reasons, such as stray fire. You're perpetuating a false hollywood movie myth that you can just shoot any explosive and have it explode because, I don't know, bullets hit hard? It's movie logic.

Your videos aren't working but the very very next thing after your original 31second cut off point a few seconds is him claiming that like any explosive device it's dangerous if you do something stupid with it and then not letting the team handle it while he sets it up.

All of my videos are working on my end bu I actually know what you're talking about. The episode I got edited the scene that was on the website you posted -- basically, it didn't show the full conversation with the RPG expert in the episode as it aired. Here's the video on the site you linked:

Click RPG 101 It's not the video that shows in the link, readers, it's the one marked RPG 101 just below it.

Go to 0:56. When asked if it is dangerous, he says "Right now? No, cuz it's not armed. You have to fire it out of the launcher to arm it." He does say that any explosive can be dangerous and he's the only one allowed to fire it, but that doesn't prove anything. I'll prove you more wrong later on. Onto your next statement:

If they shot a rocket a rocket while it is stationary that would have looked shit and destroyed the very expensive launch gear. Basic science is on my side, if you shoot a rocket with a bullet it will detonate the material inside, the armour of a rocket can stop a standard bullet from penetrating but these aren't standard bullets and your insects aren't plated rockets

This comment makes no sense, especially considering I know you watched the video. They wouldn't NEED the launch gear if you could just shoot an RPG to make it go off -- they could literally just put it on a stand and fire at it, without the gear being there. Basic science isn't on your side -- movie science is. I showed two separate videos from your own source about them stating the Rocket having to ARM mid flight. If it didn't, they would just fire at it while standing it on top of a metal/wooden stand at the position they want, because it would've been a WHOLE lot easier than trying to snipe an RPG mid flight (which caused a whole lot of problems and cost them extra money).

Shooting modern explosives with a bullet doesn't set them off(causing the impact nose on an RPG to collapse after it's armed will, which a bullet can do), you're talking complete and utter nonsense. The military wouldn't have such absurdly hazardous equipment be standard for infantry regiments.

Above is you telling Jeffries to make his cover stronger based on a tactic I will use on seeing them defend Jeffries from bullet fire, a tactic that you yourself did not prepare for but tried to have your characters retroactively prepare for. Stop denying this.

My mistake was allowing you to job my character by saying he puts up a weak ass wall when he has, several times before, made robots and vehicles and armor that is much more durable out of raw material. I should've, from the beginning, just pointed out that Jeffries isn't a jobber or an idiot and wouldn't intentionally make a weaker cover structure than he's capable of making.

They won't be anywhere near as effective against characters that are a lot more durable than your standard human taking kicks from high tonners. I can provide scans but you probably already know this which is why you argued that someone you claimed was a good guy using tank busting blasts from the start.

Again, you are arguing in an attempt to job my characters and devalue their capabilities and feats based on non-existent factors. Terrific is not the goody two shoes you proclaim him to be and it's preposterous that you think he'll hold back so much that I won't even be able to hurt your characters.

Incorrect, he is one of the best killer in the world who will never back down from a mission and has actually helped save the world not the most notorious, the only moment that comes close to ruthlessness is against an opponent who Terrific has expended all his resources trying to capture rather than kill, who has Terrific trapped in an inhospitable enviroment and who potentially dies in the only way the Terrific can save himself (guys not even listed as being dead on the wiki).

Why would a wiki need to prove something? Terrific also tried to, you know, blast him but his molecular control made it ineffective. He tried to impale his head on an icicle, but his phasing made it ineffective. Mr. Terrific does not have hang ups on using lethal force in a difficult situation -- just because there wasn't a straight up on panel death doesn't mean Terrific didn't throw a guy into a deadly scenario, tell him "Good luck" and walk away without ever checking on him again. Terrific will willingly use powerful enough blasts to harm your team and it's preposterous that I have to defend myself from you actively jobbing all of my characters.

Here's a method that makes more sense and much more likely than Terrific killing straight up killing someone. Instead of resorting to lethal methods Terrific takes his team and leaves, he loses a fight you lose the fight by default but it is much much more in character.

This is absolutely, unbelievably absurd. You can't be serious with this statement.

You're right, you win, Terrific hates fighting and won't fight in a goddamn fight tournament. If anyone actually believes Dextersinister is totally right and Terrific will just freaking LEAVE because he's a hero then vote for him. I can't seriously comprehend how he uses the argument "Well your team will just leave!" Jesus.

I never compalined about the wall it was the bloody sentinels and multiple guns automatic guns that pop up within moments despite the lack of resources and the cap on his TK. A submarine really? The only scan I need is this one, the one you provided, The one where he whines to Cyke about if only he had time to build a robot when you have him building these things within moments

You DID complain about the wall -- you spent the vast majority of this debate trying to say that an enormous factory doesn't have the plastic, glass, and metal mass to Jeffries to manipulate (absolutely absurd, honestly) and then saying he jobs and makes a weak ass barrier because you say so.

I never said Jeffries is going to make a hundred sentinels -- I used that scan to show him manipulating hundreds of Box suits that filled a giant warehouse of similar size to this one. I was using it to show his range isn't limited to...10 feet, as you said (though you corrected yourself and swapped to 10 meters, which still makes me question your inherent ability to judge distance). Yeah, he has made a submarine in a split second:

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He turned his box armor into a submarine in the time it took him to fall about 20 feet.

"Whines to Cyke" you are trying so hard to diminish Jeffries' capabilities it's almost embarassing. He massively injures a giant monster the rest of the X-Men couldn't hurt instead of building a robot (He's talking about his Box armor, by the way. Takes a lot more material than what he had on hand in that issue). The scan was mostly to prove that you were talking out of your rear when you said the last time Jeffries did anything was during Weapon X under the mental control of The Director -- which is greatly false as he's been with Beast and the X-Club for years since.

You brought in fading perspective, which will not be an issue. This is one of multiple times where you questioned me then claimed ignorance to what I was answering.

Fading perspective has nothing to do with Slade's aim, dude. It has to do with the fact that Slade does not have an angle that allows him to shoot at my team from the side because of the distance we're at -- fading perspective is when the degrees of the 360 degree area that surround my team grow larger as others gain distance from them. You'd have to be at a 20-30 degree angle to shoot around us and it'd take Slade a good bit of time to change that distance.

It's a matter of angles, not aim.

I would say you have a point but then again did I not say once Deathstroke goes for Jeffries in cover the other 2 would handle Alita and Terrific why would they keep firing on Jeffries in cover? and are you actually trying to use Mr Majestic a superman clone who has moved planets disarming my character as some sort of low showing.

Has Majestic ever moved planets with his eyebeams? I mean I'm not comparing Majestic's blasts and Terrific's (that'd be preposterous), it's just you made the statement that your weapons absorb energy and all I saw of one of them was her blocking it and having it knocked out of her hand for her effort -- if it absorbed it completely then there'd be no impact and it wouldn't fly out of her hands. The other one seemed to absorb it just fine.

And of course I have a point. You DID say Deathstroke goes for Jeffries after he makes the cover because you yourself set his blast staff would destroy the cover (while ignoring the force field, apparently). You also plainly stated you had 6 guns shooting on us. You changed your statement after the fact because of something I brought up.

The thing is, I don't mind. Neither of us should be expected to know 100% of each other's capabilities and our characters changing what they do as we alter our arguments is how battles work. I'm just completely baffled and annoyed at why you made such a big deal out of it when everyone in every CaV or tournament does this exact same thing, including yourself in this very thread.

I'd also like to address some double standards here. Your character's gear completely neutralized an attack from Mr Majestic and you, at the exact same time, complain to me about using the T-Spheres to make fields that supersede the durability limit while you're, apparently, doing the exact same thing. If your character is completely immune to Superman level eye beam or Captain Atom level energy attacks then why can't Mr. Terrific create a barrier that can take some bullets and a staff blast from Deathstroke without you calling foul by tournament rules?

Reflexes=reaction time otherwise we would have characters that are literally untouchable when standing still. One of the things of which there actually is no cap on is skill which is almost a tangible quality within the comicverse with characters like Cap being able to hold there own against Spiderman because of it.

The scan followed your question on how he was able to react to speedsters, you responded in a questioning manner as if I had provided it for no reason.

This is incorrect. The rules say no one with superior speed or agility to Spiderman, not reflexes or reaction time. That just means your character can't move around faster than Spidey, not that they can't have better reaction time.

You saying I am treating all explosive similarly is terribly hypocritical on your part when you compared gasoline with materials that are actually used in explosive devices outside of a riot.

This is incorrect. I compared the ability of a bullet to ignite a volatile compound. I wasn't saying Gas was exactly like military grade explosives -- gas is actually MUCH easier to set off, but Bullets can't accomplish even that. There was no hypocrisy in my statement -- I was merely pointing out how your view of a bullet's abilities to set off explosives is incorrect and based in terrible Hollywood logic.

It shouldn't take long for you to look into the inner workings of these things and find out that I am right and that a bullet will set off the materials used within the vast majority of explosive devices.

You're wrong, though. Bullets aren't hot enough to do anything of the sort unless they're incendiary rounds that are MEANT to set things on fire. Bullets aren't even hot enough to start a fire, especially after travelling 500 meters to reach their target.

You have Jeffries manipulating and organizing tonnes of materials and building multiple complex things within moments not just a bloody wall, despite that being above the TK limit, not enough materials within reach and terrible speculation on what he is capable of. A character who is being shielded by the couple of tonnes of the same material of which you are also trying to use to build other things while he is in a forcefield, a forcefield which is featless and even then can't hold up to a bullet let alone a discharge from an energy lance.

This is a lie. I brought up Jeffries manipulating a warehouse full of Box robots in response to you questioning his range -- I did not say he created a bunch of robots out of the materials.

"Terrible speculation" are you kidding me? In the picture alone there's plenty of material to pull off what I'm saying Jeffries does (Makes cover, then transmutes some cannons out of the cover to fire with at range)

Terrific's fields aren't featless. I gave you the feat. If you think a bullet has the kinetic power of a speeding car then you're daft. A speeding car would level a helicopter, too, btw.

You had Terrific opening with a lethal salvo on the basis of him throwing a character to a comic book death (don't see the body death) when he would be much more likely to turn around and leave with his team before doing that. This is far from the same scenario where he is trapped and moments from being killed by character he can do nothing to stop bar throwing him to this potential death.

Okay, I'm absolutely sick of this. You're SERIOUSLY REPEATING that Terrific is going to leave the goddamn tournament before he uses powerful force blasts? You're also STILL harping on the "no body death" thing when the point was Terrific's morals: Terrific clearly did not care whether Tomorrow Thief lived or died. It doesn't matter IF he did, it's what terrific is willing to do to win a life or death fight. As soon as Thief proved that he was a psychopath who couldn't be reasoned with, Terrific started firing force blasts at him, trying to throw ice spears through his head, and throwing him into a volcanic lake.

In battles, it is assumed that both teams cannot come to a reasonable conclusion and are fighting to win to the best of their abilities. The fact that you think it's more likely for Terrific to leave before firing force blasts makes my head spin. STOP. JOBBING. MY. TEAM.

Of course your going to laugh against the bees, one of those awkward laughs, it's crippling disavantage if they actually go off, you have mentioned something hitting them multiple times but you know yourself and it's pretty clear that those hits target the exact same spot with precise accuracy and with a swipe not a super heated bullet.

No Caption Provided

Section six is where the explosive are contained and would go off if an armour piercing bullet hit it. The thorax on your bees insects is the largest part which he never touches and unlike the lion the bullets won't care if the explosives go off.

Oh my god. Okay, I'm going to show you exactly why you're wrong about bullets setting off explosives. Here is the final few minutes of the mythbusters episode and I'm going to conclusively prove, using your own source, why you're wrong:

Loading Video...

Here's a direct link if this doesn't embed properly:

Click for Mythbusters.

I apologize for the choppiness, I don't know how to fix it. The important thing is what they say.

0:16 to 0:35

"The biggest problem with that is the RPG won't be armed at 16 feet, it takes a lot farther for it to get out. The RPG's just gonna keep right on going like a really big bullet"

This proves that the bullet will not set off the RPG until it arms from the RPG expert.

1:07 to 1:12

"We can do this by actually moving the target farther away from the RPG launcher where the RPG will actually be armed."

Once again stating the RPG has to be armed for the bullet to set it off. If it didn't require itself to be armed then these complications would not have happened. Do you know why this is true? For the exact same reason I said: RPGs, like almost all military grade explosives, are designed so that they will not explode due to stray fire or mishandling. RPGs specifically are designed so that they won't arm until they are a safe distance away from the person firing it.

1:51 to 1:58

"This piece of acryllic will represent our bullet. We know that once an RPG is armed, it doesn't take much to set it off"

A stationary piece of acrylic can set off an RPG once it's armed, and you don't think a robotic animal slicing it in half won't? Here's the scan for those who forgot:

No Caption Provided

DOZENS of bees being destroyed but not going off, clearly showing that the explosives weren't armed until they actually hit their target -- if you don't think the dog cutting them in half is equivalent to a piece of acrylic then I don't know what to say.

4:27 to 4:35

"Especially since, in the movie, the warhead would not have been armed on contact with the bullet, but the gun toting good guy."

Once again stating that a bullet won't set off an RPG until the RPG reaches arming distance. As I've shown, Missile Bees don't arm until they hit their target, otherwise they would've exploded when sliced in half.

Are you happy? Do I need to prove, further, than neither Bullets nor their heat can set off military grade warheads until they're armed?

Spin it how you like, if I know reasons in your characters history on why they would not do certain things then I will point them out. I would be a terrible debater if I let you get away with Terrific firing tank destroying blasts from the get go which you still haven't provided unless it was that scan of an armoured car and you where just overselling it or highlighting that Jeffries mental stability has decreased since his Alpha Flight days.

What do you mean I didn't provide a scan of him destroying a tank? It's right in the thread. Reposting it here for you -- this was literally Mr. Terrific's first success as a superhero:

No Caption Provided

Shoots a tank, with his T-sphere, blows it to pieces.

Jeffries mental stability is fine? He's capable of creating complex machines at Beast's request, he even falls in love with Danger (kind of weird but he's a technophile). Jeffries gets his alpha flight feats, dude. That's the entire premise of me picking him. You're talking about stuff that happened years ago -- he's been just fine with Dr. Nemesis and co with the X-club. I can give you the entire 1-5 X-Club scans if you want to prove it, I guess, but I'd rather not post over a hundred pages of scans.

When I picked characters I choose swordsmen people who use swords because within the genre bullets never hit, every named hero and his mother can dodge bullets which is why I was surprised to see someone who doesn't have the ridiculous amount of skill and olympic level reflexes that is so common.

Then why, despite all of this, have you consistently stuck by saying your team stays at full range and tries to get in a range war against people with better ranged weapons and abilities than them?

So I pushed at Jeffries like a blood hound

You actually said you split everyone's fire until you saw Jeffries construct cover for my team and that I had Mr. Terrific shoot at you. You then went and said that your team actually uses their swords to defend against Terrific (well, you said 2 people. You never actually said Slade defended himself...how about that?) so they can't quite be accurately firing on my team and my missile bees -- I covered this by using Terrific's field generating abilities while firing with his other t-spheres.

You've more or less, yourself, said your team does 3 different things in the opening moments of this fight. You said they fired 6 guns at my team, and assumed the bullets would kill jeffries despite taking some time to get there and my team having defenses. You then said you are ALSO shooting my Missile Bees as soon as Alita launches them, which implies that you aren't shooting at my team anymore (or atleast significantly directing your fire away from them). You've said that Deathstroke, instead, uses his Energy Staff while your other two combatants actually defend against Terrific's blasts using their swords -- which doesn't make sense as they'd have to drop their gun and pull out their sword, which they wouldn't be able to do fast enough. All of this while assuming Alita is incapable of shooting them, despite both your energy blast defense showings show Nemesis and Zealot not moving (Terrific doesn't have this problem thanks to the T-Sphere's ability to do separate things at the same time thanks to their being multiple. Alita doesn't have this problem because her Missile Bees are voice activated and she can fire/fight in melee while sending them out).

For someone who harps on retroactive strategy changes and doing too many things at once, you yourself are pulling the same thing to the exact same degree.

This appears to be the best dodging feat we have, although you described it as him dodging lasers, I'm selling this short because it's really bad this is the sort of dodging feat you would get from a character such as Lois Lane or Mary Jane, they avoid the fire simply by running away with no impressive reflexive showing you get when someone moves out of the way of a bullet that was actually going to hit them. Imagine how different this scenario would be if the robots hadn't been programmed by Stormtroopers and had shot straight at the door instead of hitting the entire frame.

I love how you just post the picture and outright ignore all the words I said. I threw the picture out as a joke, saying "Hey look, Jeffries can dodge! It's irrelevant as I've already stated he's being defended by self made cover and defensive fields rather than dodging, though!"

The robots weren't programmed by storm troopers, btw. Rogue AI that infected some merpeople (somehow) and gave a group of powerful X-Men a tough fight. That said, almost everyone's bullet dodging feats come from anonymous soldiers a through z who can't seem to hit a target to save their life.

It also goes against any idea of him manipulating metal quickly because those are just basic drones, there should be no reason why he wouldn't manipulate them if he could because the the A.I. is not stored on any of them.

Except it doesn't because you ignored my words to try to attack a picture.

On robotic accuracy Terrific always seems to be holding his T-Spheres when they fire in the scans you provided.

His T-spheres shoot all sorts of crap when he's not holding them. Ala:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

His T-Spheres can attack targets without him holding and directing them. I don't think there's any reason to believe he has to be holding a T-Sphere to us any of their abilities, all he has to do is mentally command them to execute a task.

In case I may have not posted enough scans to display skill. Zealot is so skilled that she is fighting Midnighter the guy with the broken computer, he resorts to using a weapon after taking a kick to the face and when they use weapons a 3 hour fight is over in moments.

Nemesis is as skilled or almost as skilled as Zealot, Zealot had tarined her for thousand of years after all. This scan is directly after the one where she flings Zavant at Zealot, you can tell by Grifter the most skilled Marksman in the Wildstorm universes remark. She blocked his fire while in another fight with her wrist mounted forcefield and then leapfrogs the fire to take him down.

After I have pressed the advantage against Jeffries these 2 and Deathstroke should be able to overwhelm the other 2 if they continue to dodge their fire. Deathstroke has the standard virtually indestructible promethium blade but Zealot has a Kusar blade that can cut through Supermen level characters with ease

Nemesis on the other hand has 2 Creation blades, parts of a universe destroying machine that can literally cut though anything and kill anything. They where the only things that could hurt Tao when he had achieved godlike powers and was an abstract being, he was left almost powerless while they where embedded within his body

The thing is, none of these melee feats are particularly relevant because you have outright stated that your team is staying at range and firing. You absolutely will not charge into melee range until you have the false assumption that Jeffries is taken down. I believe I've made a conclusive enough argument that your team isn't going to just snipe Jeffries at the start of the fight for an easy 2 on 3 fight.

I understand WHY you're doing what you're doing -- you, despite your characters not having this knowledge, won't allow your team to come close enough to Jeffries to allow him to manipulate your special swords and gear against you. That's WHY you're so adamant in saying that Jeffries dies early in the fight -- because he counters how melee and sword centric your team is.

It's funny because your team, with 0 marvel characters, is apparently fully aware of this and fight contrary to how they usually operate -- getting in close and slicing people up. But, I don't argue your characters for you. It has nothing to do with my "skill" as a debater, something that you seem so happy to parade about, and more to do with the fact it's not UP to me how your characters act. If they think that it's best to go into a firefight because they're starting 500 meters away from their opponent then far be it from me to tell you "No, they won't because they're sword users and prefer melee combat!"

It's not my place to do exactly what you're trying to do to me -- job your characters.

Also, you still never really contested how, despite the fact that Jeffries powers have extended to several hundred square feet danger rooms or connected to every single robot filling up a several hundred square meter room, why he can't use his powers on your weapons. You just said "that's 30 feet/meters" when it wasn't. But I've since moved along to Jeffries making some mounted guns and cover, but even that you have somehow twisted into a debate on such trivial and incorrect semantics like if a .3 square mile factory is capable of housing enough material for Jeffries to make cover or can Jeffries make material capable of defending against decent energy blasts -- all of which are OBVIOUSLY true but you had to contest to the bitter end no matter what.

So, in FINAL SUMMARY:

No, you can't set off military grade explosives before they arm with bullets. Your bullets will not prematurely detonate Missile Bees.

Yes, there's easily enough material for Jeffries to manipulate into walls and guns.

Yes, Jeffries constructs ARE capable of taking your attacks, as he's made Box robots out of raw material that were capable of taking multiple hits from heavy hitters like Thor and The Thing.

Yes, Jeffries range is more than 10 freaking meters(I still don't know where you got that number). It's closer to hundreds of meters considering his ability to control entire danger rooms or massive warehouses full of Box suits.

Jeffries mental stability is fine. You don't get to tell me I can't use his Alpha Flight feats because, years ago, bad stuff happened to him.

Yes, Terrific is more than willing to greatly harm or kill an opponent in life or death scenarios when diplomacy will not work (which is assumed in battles)

No, Terrific is not going to freaking leave the fight before he uses a force blast on your team.

Avatar image for Liveshiptrader
#39 Edited by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

@dextersinister:

@dextersinister:

I think you're generally underestimating A: How heavy steel is and B: how much material lays about in a factory, especially a .3 square mile factory. It's a very large area with lots of stuff to work with. Support beams alone would be multiple tons of metal.

There is an abundance only because the warehouse is so big, as I have pointed out multiple times his limit for manipulation is limited as proven by the Sentinel scan where he needs to get close to it and never disproven by any of the scans that has his field of manipulation limited to about room size

This is actually my point though -- one of the reasons Gasoline or other natural gases aren't used for weapons is that they're volatile and easy to set off -- yet bullets do not have the heat to set them off. You think stable military weaponry goes off from stray gun fire? Of course not, it's a ridiculous assumption.

Proof that your team is using depleted uranium bullets and ALSO proof that they cause high levels of heat on impact -- Depleted uranium is used for its heavier mass compared to lead to pierce armor, as far as I'm aware it has nothing to do with heat.

Incorrect if it was so easy to set off then we would risk are lives every time we start a vehicle and the reason why a bottle filled with petrol can merely set a roo on fire vs a bottle filled with gunpowder which would take the entire house down.

It is listed as causing intense heat on impact and is listed as a pyrophic material.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrophoricity

It is also the best material for armour piercing rounds so there is no reason I wouldn't use it, the only reason normal people don't use it is because of the horrible side effects of carrying it but that is off set by a healing factor accross the team, Deathstroke runs around with volatile promethium equipment and is listed the he can carry radioactive equipment because of his healing factor

Bullets aren't actually that hot, though? ESPECIALLY after travelling 500 meters -- they lose much more heat from circulation travelling through the air than they gain in friction.

I have explained why a bullet wouldn't detonate modern explosives -- they're inert until armed due to safety reasons, such as stray fire. You're perpetuating a false hollywood movie myth that you can just shoot any explosive and have it explode because, I don't know, bullets hit hard? It's movie logic.

You say 500 meters but the only reason Jeffries even has the barrier up is because I said you would have a few sceonds for my characters to move forward down the workhouse at the speed of a car, before you mention that there are things in the way there would be clear lanes in any half decent workhouse for people to work. The friction caused from the impact of metal clashing with metal alone would be enough to handle, a standard bullet is too hot to handle and thats after it's finished the journey.

The false hollywood myth revolves around cars not exploding when shot not explosives not exploding because if a bullet didn't set it off the material being used then it would be too unreactive to justify using it as an explosive.

All of my videos are working on my end bu I actually know what you're talking about. The episode I got edited the scene that was on the website you posted -- basically, it didn't show the full conversation with the RPG expert in the episode as it aired. Here's the video on the site you linked:

Click RPG 101 It's not the video that shows in the link, readers, it's the one marked RPG 101 just below it.

Go to 0:56. When asked if it is dangerous, he says "Right now? No, cuz it's not armed. You have to fire it out of the launcher to arm it." He does say that any explosive can be dangerous and he's the only one allowed to fire it, but that doesn't prove anything. I'll prove you more wrong later on. Onto your next statement:

Your hung up on the idea of it being armed, all that means is that there is a small device that will spark off the explosive material.

A bullet will detonate composition B if it strikes it but a stray standard bullet would not penetrate a rocket. You are greatly exaggerating the danger of a bullet hitting a rocket when a soldier is in far far more danger of being hit by a bullet themselves when attempting to launch an RPG, it's not like they keep them out in the open.

My mistake was allowing you to job my character by saying he puts up a weak ass wall when he has, several times before, made robots and vehicles and armor that is much more durable out of raw material. I should've, from the beginning, just pointed out that Jeffries isn't a jobber or an idiot and wouldn't intentionally make a weaker cover structure than he's capable of making.

You've made plenty of mistakes and Jeffries doesn't dictate how strong the cover he makes is the amount of material does and has been pointed out countless times he doesn't have much to work with. The biggest mistake has been the large amount of speculation on Jeffries and abc logic, claiming that he made guns from his robot suit so he can't grow guns from anything despite the fact that he has a very deep connection with the suit when he is in it.

Again, you are arguing in an attempt to job my characters and devalue their capabilities and feats based on non-existent factors. Terrific is not the goody two shoes you proclaim him to be and it's preposterous that you think he'll hold back so much that I won't even be able to hurt your characters.

You are using the word job and filling your comments with shock again to make it look as if my pointing out the flaws in your plan aren't credible. I never said he was a goody toe shoes but I know he isn't the straight out killer you have been trying to paint him as, Terrific being unaware of my teams enhanced durability is a disadvantage because in the unlikely chance a shot does connect it will have much less impact than he expected. The only thing preposterous is that you haven't given up on this point, I even made a point that Cyclops who is surely not a goody toe shoes would have effectively need 2 shots against Spider Man because he would need to judge his durability, this scenario is no different.

Why would a wiki need to prove something? Terrific also tried to, you know, blast him but his molecular control made it ineffective. He tried to impale his head on an icicle, but his phasing made it ineffective. Mr. Terrific does not have hang ups on using lethal force in a difficult situation -- just because there wasn't a straight up on panel death doesn't mean Terrific didn't throw a guy into a deadly scenario, tell him "Good luck" and walk away without ever checking on him again. Terrific will willingly use powerful enough blasts to harm your team and it's preposterous that I have to defend myself from you actively jobbing all of my characters.

The scenario had Terrific trapped in the arctic with a guy who will kill him if he isn't taken down and Terrific only goes for potentially lethal methods after he's used up all his resources, this scenario has him in a warehouse with people who will kill him unless he leaves. Wildly different when the blanks are filled in and for the last time stop trying to justify a bloodlusted Terrific.

This is absolutely, unbelievably absurd. You can't be serious with this statement.

You're right, you win, Terrific hates fighting and won't fight in a goddamn fight tournament. If anyone actually believes Dextersinister is totally right and Terrific will just freaking LEAVE because he's a hero then vote for him. I can't seriously comprehend how he uses the argument "Well your team will just leave!" Jesus.

Another comment filled with shock and awe and taken out of context, I claimed that Terrific would rather leave rather than kill someone but you just left that out of your little tangent.

You DID complain about the wall -- you spent the vast majority of this debate trying to say that an enormous factory doesn't have the plastic, glass, and metal mass to Jeffries to manipulate (absolutely absurd, honestly) and then saying he jobs and makes a weak ass barrier because you say so.

I've covered this multiple times

I never said Jeffries is going to make a hundred sentinels -- I used that scan to show him manipulating hundreds of Box suits that filled a giant warehouse of similar size to this one. I was using it to show his range isn't limited to...10 feet, as you said (though you corrected yourself and swapped to 10 meters, which still makes me question your inherent ability to judge distance). Yeah, he has made a submarine in a split second:

No Caption Provided

He turned his box armor into a submarine in the time it took him to fall about 20 feet.

The speed of the wall coupled with the ability to make otehr things.

Your are trying to apply box feats outside the box, Jeffries has a psychic link with the box which is made from living metal and has shown abilities within it which are much more impressive than those outside and why his most offensive moments are primarily when he is using it and why you have so much speculation outside of it.

I've quoted Jeffries as either room sized or 30 feet and this is the first time I've had to remind you of the details.

"Whines to Cyke" you are trying so hard to diminish Jeffries' capabilities it's almost embarassing. He massively injures a giant monster the rest of the X-Men couldn't hurt instead of building a robot (He's talking about his Box armor, by the way. Takes a lot more material than what he had on hand in that issue). The scan was mostly to prove that you were talking out of your rear when you said the last time Jeffries did anything was during Weapon X under the mental control of The Director -- which is greatly false as he's been with Beast and the X-Club for years since.

Twist it how you like, I claimed he hadn't done anything impressive. What does he do before or after that scan? nothing that's what, Jeffries is one among many of the X-Men's legion of characters that showed up in that event to throw out an attack, maybe you'll point out Jeffries buried somewhere in an AvsX splash page. Jeffries has been in the X-club for years but the actual series only lasted 5 issues and he was overshadowed by Nemesis and Danger. Even someone in another tournament has Jeffries listed as being insane and he is using him.

Fading perspective has nothing to do with Slade's aim, dude. It has to do with the fact that Slade does not have an angle that allows him to shoot at my team from the side because of the distance we're at -- fading perspective is when the degrees of the 360 degree area that surround my team grow larger as others gain distance from them. You'd have to be at a 20-30 degree angle to shoot around us and it'd take Slade a good bit of time to change that distance.

It's a matter of angles, not aim.

I've already mentioned my characters moving forward which is why Jeffries is behind cover rather than taking a bullet from the start. I am not shooting around you, your cover can only be so thick and so wide.

Has Majestic ever moved planets with his eyebeams? I mean I'm not comparing Majestic's blasts and Terrific's (that'd be preposterous), it's just you made the statement that your weapons absorb energy and all I saw of one of them was her blocking it and having it knocked out of her hand for her effort -- if it absorbed it completely then there'd be no impact and it wouldn't fly out of her hands. The other one seemed to absorb it just fine.

No Caption Provided

Look at the scan again, you see it being knocked out of her hand in the second panel

And of course I have a point. You DID say Deathstroke goes for Jeffries after he makes the cover because you yourself set his blast staff would destroy the cover (while ignoring the force field, apparently). You also plainly stated you had 6 guns shooting on us. You changed your statement after the fact because of something I brought up.

Incorrect I mentioned six guns when we where debating as if there where no cover. I never ignored the forcefield, I mentioned he could simply double tap the staff and that theforcefield should have little to no effect as it's both featless and would be against the rules if it could stop bullets let alone his blasting staff which drove straight through a rock pillar when a normal bullet would get stuck within a few inches.

The thing is, I don't mind. Neither of us should be expected to know 100% of each other's capabilities and our characters changing what they do as we alter our arguments is how battles work. I'm just completely baffled and annoyed at why you made such a big deal out of it when everyone in every CaV or tournament does this exact same thing, including yourself in this very thread.

I'd also like to address some double standards here. Your character's gear completely neutralized an attack from Mr Majestic and you, at the exact same time, complain to me about using the T-Spheres to make fields that supersede the durability limit while you're, apparently, doing the exact same thing. If your character is completely immune to Superman level eye beam or Captain Atom level energy attacks then why can't Mr. Terrific create a barrier that can take some bullets and a staff blast from Deathstroke without you calling foul by tournament rules?

Incorrect again. You should have been keeping up, there is a reason I have been calling it a full body forcefield. The Tournament is filled with characters who have shields such as Cap, Nemesis and Link or parts of there body that are above tournament limits such as Hellboys arm. The rules where that the characters could not take bullets without injury and full body forcefields where within those rules as Masterchiefs was given as an example.

This is incorrect. The rules say no one with superior speed or agility to Spiderman, not reflexes or reaction time. That just means your character can't move around faster than Spidey, not that they can't have better reaction time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agility

The first paragraph of agility

In general, agility is defined as "the ability of a [system] to rapidly respond to change by adapting its initial stable configuration"

Like I said agility/reflexes/reaction time is capped to avoid untouchable characters.

This is incorrect. I compared the ability of a bullet to ignite a volatile compound. I wasn't saying Gas was exactly like military grade explosives -- gas is actually MUCH easier to set off, but Bullets can't accomplish even that. There was no hypocrisy in my statement -- I was merely pointing out how your view of a bullet's abilities to set off explosives is incorrect and based in terrible Hollywood logic.

You say'ed that I said all explosives are the same, you then use an example of a material that isn't in explosives rather than those that are such as composition B or gunpowder.

You're wrong, though. Bullets aren't hot enough to do anything of the sort unless they're incendiary rounds that are MEANT to set things on fire. Bullets aren't even hot enough to start a fire, especially after travelling 500 meters to reach their target.

I've answered this in an above comment.

You have Jeffries manipulating and organizing tonnes of materials and building multiple complex things within moments not just a bloody wall, despite that being above the TK limit, not enough materials within reach and terrible speculation on what he is capable of. A character who is being shielded by the couple of tonnes of the same material of which you are also trying to use to build other things while he is in a forcefield, a forcefield which is featless and even then can't hold up to a bullet let alone a discharge from an energy lance.

This is a lie. I brought up Jeffries manipulating a warehouse full of Box robots in response to you questioning his range -- I did not say he created a bunch of robots out of the materials.

No Caption Provided

You said an entire base and this is the scan you provided and do I really need to mention the Sentinel scan again.

"Terrible speculation" are you kidding me? In the picture alone there's plenty of material to pull off what I'm saying Jeffries does (Makes cover, then transmutes some cannons out of the cover to fire with at range)

You've had Jeffries pulling off feats that you I've never seen him do such as multiple guns from a wall or making these things in combat with no scans or even links even when I've asked. Some of your feats have been him manipulating his box which he has much greater control over because he has a special connection with it and it's the only thing he can control while inside it.

Terrific's fields aren't featless. I gave you the feat. If you think a bullet has the kinetic power of a speeding car then you're daft. A speeding car would level a helicopter, too, btw.

You have the laser blast stopping a car, you are now translating that into a active forcefield that can stop a car. That is most certainly speculation when one requires a quick burst of energy the other is constant. As it stands the forcefield are featless.

Okay, I'm absolutely sick of this. You're SERIOUSLY REPEATING that Terrific is going to leave the goddamn tournament before he uses powerful force blasts? You're also STILL harping on the "no body death" thing when the point was Terrific's morals: Terrific clearly did not care whether Tomorrow Thief lived or died. It doesn't matter IF he did, it's what terrific is willing to do to win a life or death fight. As soon as Thief proved that he was a psychopath who couldn't be reasoned with, Terrific started firing force blasts at him, trying to throw ice spears through his head, and throwing him into a volcanic lake.

I've answered this, I'm not really sick of answering it, I'm just in auto-mode. You have a league member shooting lethal blasts from the start and use a vastly different set-up to try and justify it where he has no resources and will die if he doesn't stop a flying phaser against people who want him out of the workshop, what more needs to be said you've taken liberties, I am tired of the complaints.

In battles, it is assumed that both teams cannot come to a reasonable conclusion and are fighting to win to the best of their abilities. The fact that you think it's more likely for Terrific to leave before firing force blasts makes my head spin. STOP. JOBBING. MY. TEAM.

They are in character, Terrific would leave before he kills someone or if he needs to get Jeffries help. Stop misusing a character who is a league member and calling it jobbing when you get called on it.

Of course your going to laugh against the bees, one of those awkward laughs, it's crippling disavantage if they actually go off, you have mentioned something hitting them multiple times but you know yourself and it's pretty clear that those hits target the exact same spot with precise accuracy and with a swipe not a super heated bullet.

No Caption Provided

Section six is where the explosive are contained and would go off if an armour piercing bullet hit it. The thorax on your bees insects is the largest part which he never touches and unlike the lion the bullets won't care if the explosives go off.

Oh my god. Okay, I'm going to show you exactly why you're wrong about bullets setting off explosives. Here is the final few minutes of the mythbusters episode and I'm going to conclusively prove, using your own source, why you're wrong:

Loading Video...

Here's a direct link if this doesn't embed properly:

Click for Mythbusters.

I apologize for the choppiness, I don't know how to fix it. The important thing is what they say.

0:16 to 0:35

"The biggest problem with that is the RPG won't be armed at 16 feet, it takes a lot farther for it to get out. The RPG's just gonna keep right on going like a really big bullet"

This proves that the bullet will not set off the RPG until it arms from the RPG expert.

1:07 to 1:12

"We can do this by actually moving the target farther away from the RPG launcher where the RPG will actually be armed."

Once again stating the RPG has to be armed for the bullet to set it off. If it didn't require itself to be armed then these complications would not have happened. Do you know why this is true? For the exact same reason I said: RPGs, like almost all military grade explosives, are designed so that they will not explode due to stray fire or mishandling. RPGs specifically are designed so that they won't arm until they are a safe distance away from the person firing it.

1:51 to 1:58

"This piece of acryllic will represent our bullet. We know that once an RPG is armed, it doesn't take much to set it off"

A stationary piece of acrylic can set off an RPG once it's armed, and you don't think a robotic animal slicing it in half won't? Here's the scan for those who forgot:

No Caption Provided

DOZENS of bees being destroyed but not going off, clearly showing that the explosives weren't armed until they actually hit their target -- if you don't think the dog cutting them in half is equivalent to a piece of acrylic then I don't know what to say.

4:27 to 4:35

"Especially since, in the movie, the warhead would not have been armed on contact with the bullet, but the gun toting good guy."

Once again stating that a bullet won't set off an RPG until the RPG reaches arming distance. As I've shown, Missile Bees don't arm until they hit their target, otherwise they would've exploded when sliced in half.

Are you happy? Do I need to prove, further, than neither Bullets nor their heat can set off military grade warheads until they're armed?

I've addressed this before and you've never once addressed the issue of what arming actually means but you keep going on about it as if not being armed magically protects an exploisve device from detonating, all arming means if that the rpg would go off if it received enough shock. If a bullet hits an explosive material the heat or friction from the casing being ruptured will detonate it. As I'll say for the last time you have the Lion cutting the bees with precision which wouldn't even detonated an armed warhead.

What do you mean I didn't provide a scan of him destroying a tank? It's right in the thread. Reposting it here for you -- this was literally Mr. Terrific's first success as a superhero:

You provided a scan f him destroying stopping an armoured car and called it a tank

No Caption Provided

Shoots a tank, with his T-sphere, blows it to pieces.

Cheers

Jeffries mental stability is fine? He's capable of creating complex machines at Beast's request, he even falls in love with Danger (kind of weird but he's a technophile). Jeffries gets his alpha flight feats, dude. That's the entire premise of me picking him. You're talking about stuff that happened years ago -- he's been just fine with Dr. Nemesis and co with the X-club. I can give you the entire 1-5 X-Club scans if you want to prove it, I guess, but I'd rather not post over a hundred pages of scans.

As I pointed out earlier even someone else who is using Jeffries has him listed as insane. The difference is he doesn't have him in a firefight. He actually avoids spending time with them and retreats into a world of virtual reality.

Then why, despite all of this, have you consistently stuck by saying your team stays at full range and tries to get in a range war against people with better ranged weapons and abilities than them?

This scenario is happening within moments as they advance I'm taking out Jeffries and the T-spheres so they won't be around if the team clashes, Jeffries doesn't have reflexive feats and I've shown how easy it is to take down T-Spheres, I could make a case for Terrific being taken at range as he has at best peak human stat but it's a bit late for that.

So I pushed at Jeffries like a blood hound

You actually said you split everyone's fire until you saw Jeffries construct cover for my team and that I had Mr. Terrific shoot at you. You then went and said that your team actually uses their swords to defend against Terrific (well, you said 2 people. You never actually said Slade defended himself...how about that?) so they can't quite be accurately firing on my team and my missile bees -- I covered this by using Terrific's field generating abilities while firing with his other t-spheres.

You've more or less, yourself, said your team does 3 different things in the opening moments of this fight. You said they fired 6 guns at my team, and assumed the bullets would kill jeffries despite taking some time to get there and my team having defenses. You then said you are ALSO shooting my Missile Bees as soon as Alita launches them, which implies that you aren't shooting at my team anymore (or atleast significantly directing your fire away from them). You've said that Deathstroke, instead, uses his Energy Staff while your other two combatants actually defend against Terrific's blasts using their swords -- which doesn't make sense as they'd have to drop their gun and pull out their sword, which they wouldn't be able to do fast enough. All of this while assuming Alita is incapable of shooting them, despite both your energy blast defense showings show Nemesis and Zealot not moving (Terrific doesn't have this problem thanks to the T-Sphere's ability to do separate things at the same time thanks to their being multiple. Alita doesn't have this problem because her Missile Bees are voice activated and she can fire/fight in melee while sending them out).

For someone who harps on retroactive strategy changes and doing too many things at once, you yourself are pulling the same thing to the exact same degree.

You've had Alita release her drones which is shown she physically needs to do, defend Jeffries, defend herself and fire back. I've mentioned that all my team could bullet dodge so I've you've come up with that entire paragraph from one line how come you couldn't work out out that if I list him as a bullet dodger I expect him to dodge bullets not pick his nose.

You've had Alita release her drones which is shown she physically needs to do, defend Jeffries, defend herself and fire back and suddenly my swordsmen with superhuman reflexes can't quickly draw a sword when I provided a scan of one doing that in the dead center of a fire fight with other people who have superhuman reflexes.

No Caption Provided

I love how you just post the picture and outright ignore all the words I said. I threw the picture out as a joke, saying "Hey look, Jeffries can dodge! It's irrelevant as I've already stated he's being defended by self made cover and defensive fields rather than dodging, though!"

The robots weren't programmed by storm troopers, btw. Rogue AI that infected some merpeople (somehow) and gave a group of powerful X-Men a tough fight. That said, almost everyone's bullet dodging feats come from anonymous soldiers a through z who can't seem to hit a target to save their life.

If it was a joke fair enough, it can be hard to tell when you scan through so much text and there isn't a smiley face.

Except it doesn't because you ignored my words to try to attack a picture.

Of course I'm targeting the words this is a debate, that's what we do. The picture is one of the few recent combat moments he has and you try to justify his inaction with "he doesn't want to harm the A.I." when destroying or even bending there lasers wouldn't harm them in anyway but he is useless under fire.

You said that he didn't do it because he

On robotic accuracy Terrific always seems to be holding his T-Spheres when they fire in the scans you provided.

His T-spheres shoot all sorts of crap when he's not holding them. Ala:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

His T-Spheres can attack targets without him holding and directing them. I don't think there's any reason to believe he has to be holding a T-Sphere to us any of their abilities, all he has to do is mentally command them to execute a task.

I was commenting on there accuracy which is why the drones led to this. He always hold a drone when firing. So I have yet to see any accuracy feats or the more than one drone fire at range.

The thing is, none of these melee feats are particularly relevant because you have outright stated that your team is staying at range and firing. You absolutely will not charge into melee range until you have the false assumption that Jeffries is taken down. I believe I've made a conclusive enough argument that your team isn't going to just snipe Jeffries at the start of the fight for an easy 2 on 3 fight.

You keep complaining against an effective tactic. If I can take down or weaken a team easily why wouldn't I pursue that tactic? Your tactic has been trying to use more materials than he can get his hands on and manipulate beyond the TK limit and trying to explain how someone with no reflexes feats can last behind cover when superhumans fight around him.

Enough with the complaining already, you listed a bunch of combat scans for Alita and you never had me harp on. I added these so that they could be matched up if it came to it.

I understand WHY you're doing what you're doing -- you, despite your characters not having this knowledge, won't allow your team to come close enough to Jeffries to allow him to manipulate your special swords and gear against you. That's WHY you're so adamant in saying that Jeffries dies early in the fight -- because he counters how melee and sword centric your team is.

Incorrect you've had Jeffries manipulate metal in plain sight to make the cover. If this was a thread match he could potentially manipulate there metal under normal circumstances but he would need prove he can do it without line of sight and faster than they can gun him down before he can attempt it.

But that is under normal circumstances, you had Jeffries restraining Deathstroke which would require more than 1 tonne of effort.

It's funny because your team, with 0 marvel characters, is apparently fully aware of this and fight contrary to how they usually operate -- getting in close and slicing people up. But, I don't argue your characters for you. It has nothing to do with my "skill" as a debater, something that you seem so happy to parade about, and more to do with the fact it's not UP to me how your characters act. If they think that it's best to go into a firefight because they're starting 500 meters away from their opponent then far be it from me to tell you "No, they won't because they're sword users and prefer melee combat!"

If I know about your characters I will point out flaws in how you use them, simple.

Like you said it's some distance, my characters are using the closing in period to fire at yours. I've fired at your characters and the only character who doesn't dodge bullets is on the train to Deadsville.

My last debate never entered melee

I focused on someone who had trouble dodging bullets in that as well and my opponent never complained about that so enough complaining when I don't have my characters act in stupid ways.

Jeffries will come under fire from one+ shots from the boomstick I see no reason why he won't die eventually as they approach and the T-spheres will be taken down before the team clashes as he is shown holding a sphere every time it fires at range.

Deathstroke, Zealot and Nemesis vs Alita and Terrific without spheres.

Just to clarify on armour piercing, they either come in tungsten or depleted uranium. Uranium is the superior version and more commonly used with Tungsten being used if uranium is either unavailable or unavailable for legal ownership which is not a factor.

Below the quote taken directly from the wiki.

Depleted uranium is favored for the penetrator because it is self-sharpening and pyrophoric.

Avatar image for Liveshiptrader
#40 Edited by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister:

@dextersinister:

Yes there are materials to work with but not the dozens of tonnes you claimed, they wouldn't have wastage like that in such an environment.

I think you're generally underestimating A: How heavy steel is and B: how much material lays about in a factory, especially a .3 square mile factory. It's a very large area with lots of stuff to work with. Support beams alone would be multiple tons of metal.

There is a reason Gasoline is a poor mans explosive normally used by rioters and not the military. There is no reason you should be comparing it with the more reactive substances within incendiary devices that would react if struck by a bullet, someone would be dead upon ignition if they had this stuff in their petrol tank.

On another armour piercing bullets in small arms contains depleted uranium within the shell which causes intense heat upon impact.

This is actually my point though -- one of the reasons Gasoline or other natural gases aren't used for weapons is that they're volatile and easy to set off -- yet bullets do not have the heat to set them off. You think stable military weaponry goes off from stray gun fire? Of course not, it's a ridiculous assumption.

Proof that your team is using depleted uranium bullets and ALSO proof that they cause high levels of heat on impact -- Depleted uranium is used for its heavier mass compared to lead to pierce armor, as far as I'm aware it has nothing to do with heat.

You've shown the device carrying the explosive being swiped in a very specific location which is clearly the case but which you have yet to comment on, the swipes wouldn't be heated unlike a bullet. You still haven't explained why a bullet wouldn't detonate the explosive material.

Bullets aren't actually that hot, though? ESPECIALLY after travelling 500 meters -- they lose much more heat from circulation travelling through the air than they gain in friction.

I have explained why a bullet wouldn't detonate modern explosives -- they're inert until armed due to safety reasons, such as stray fire. You're perpetuating a false hollywood movie myth that you can just shoot any explosive and have it explode because, I don't know, bullets hit hard? It's movie logic.

Your videos aren't working but the very very next thing after your original 31second cut off point a few seconds is him claiming that like any explosive device it's dangerous if you do something stupid with it and then not letting the team handle it while he sets it up.

All of my videos are working on my end bu I actually know what you're talking about. The episode I got edited the scene that was on the website you posted -- basically, it didn't show the full conversation with the RPG expert in the episode as it aired. Here's the video on the site you linked:

Click RPG 101 It's not the video that shows in the link, readers, it's the one marked RPG 101 just below it.

Go to 0:56. When asked if it is dangerous, he says "Right now? No, cuz it's not armed. You have to fire it out of the launcher to arm it." He does say that any explosive can be dangerous and he's the only one allowed to fire it, but that doesn't prove anything. I'll prove you more wrong later on. Onto your next statement:

If they shot a rocket a rocket while it is stationary that would have looked shit and destroyed the very expensive launch gear. Basic science is on my side, if you shoot a rocket with a bullet it will detonate the material inside, the armour of a rocket can stop a standard bullet from penetrating but these aren't standard bullets and your insects aren't plated rockets

This comment makes no sense, especially considering I know you watched the video. They wouldn't NEED the launch gear if you could just shoot an RPG to make it go off -- they could literally just put it on a stand and fire at it, without the gear being there. Basic science isn't on your side -- movie science is. I showed two separate videos from your own source about them stating the Rocket having to ARM mid flight. If it didn't, they would just fire at it while standing it on top of a metal/wooden stand at the position they want, because it would've been a WHOLE lot easier than trying to snipe an RPG mid flight (which caused a whole lot of problems and cost them extra money).

Shooting modern explosives with a bullet doesn't set them off(causing the impact nose on an RPG to collapse after it's armed will, which a bullet can do), you're talking complete and utter nonsense. The military wouldn't have such absurdly hazardous equipment be standard for infantry regiments.

Above is you telling Jeffries to make his cover stronger based on a tactic I will use on seeing them defend Jeffries from bullet fire, a tactic that you yourself did not prepare for but tried to have your characters retroactively prepare for. Stop denying this.

My mistake was allowing you to job my character by saying he puts up a weak ass wall when he has, several times before, made robots and vehicles and armor that is much more durable out of raw material. I should've, from the beginning, just pointed out that Jeffries isn't a jobber or an idiot and wouldn't intentionally make a weaker cover structure than he's capable of making.

They won't be anywhere near as effective against characters that are a lot more durable than your standard human taking kicks from high tonners. I can provide scans but you probably already know this which is why you argued that someone you claimed was a good guy using tank busting blasts from the start.

Again, you are arguing in an attempt to job my characters and devalue their capabilities and feats based on non-existent factors. Terrific is not the goody two shoes you proclaim him to be and it's preposterous that you think he'll hold back so much that I won't even be able to hurt your characters.

Incorrect, he is one of the best killer in the world who will never back down from a mission and has actually helped save the world not the most notorious, the only moment that comes close to ruthlessness is against an opponent who Terrific has expended all his resources trying to capture rather than kill, who has Terrific trapped in an inhospitable enviroment and who potentially dies in the only way the Terrific can save himself (guys not even listed as being dead on the wiki).

Why would a wiki need to prove something? Terrific also tried to, you know, blast him but his molecular control made it ineffective. He tried to impale his head on an icicle, but his phasing made it ineffective. Mr. Terrific does not have hang ups on using lethal force in a difficult situation -- just because there wasn't a straight up on panel death doesn't mean Terrific didn't throw a guy into a deadly scenario, tell him "Good luck" and walk away without ever checking on him again. Terrific will willingly use powerful enough blasts to harm your team and it's preposterous that I have to defend myself from you actively jobbing all of my characters.

Here's a method that makes more sense and much more likely than Terrific killing straight up killing someone. Instead of resorting to lethal methods Terrific takes his team and leaves, he loses a fight you lose the fight by default but it is much much more in character.

This is absolutely, unbelievably absurd. You can't be serious with this statement.

You're right, you win, Terrific hates fighting and won't fight in a goddamn fight tournament. If anyone actually believes Dextersinister is totally right and Terrific will just freaking LEAVE because he's a hero then vote for him. I can't seriously comprehend how he uses the argument "Well your team will just leave!" Jesus.

I never compalined about the wall it was the bloody sentinels and multiple guns automatic guns that pop up within moments despite the lack of resources and the cap on his TK. A submarine really? The only scan I need is this one, the one you provided, The one where he whines to Cyke about if only he had time to build a robot when you have him building these things within moments

You DID complain about the wall -- you spent the vast majority of this debate trying to say that an enormous factory doesn't have the plastic, glass, and metal mass to Jeffries to manipulate (absolutely absurd, honestly) and then saying he jobs and makes a weak ass barrier because you say so.

I never said Jeffries is going to make a hundred sentinels -- I used that scan to show him manipulating hundreds of Box suits that filled a giant warehouse of similar size to this one. I was using it to show his range isn't limited to...10 feet, as you said (though you corrected yourself and swapped to 10 meters, which still makes me question your inherent ability to judge distance). Yeah, he has made a submarine in a split second:

No Caption Provided

He turned his box armor into a submarine in the time it took him to fall about 20 feet.

"Whines to Cyke" you are trying so hard to diminish Jeffries' capabilities it's almost embarassing. He massively injures a giant monster the rest of the X-Men couldn't hurt instead of building a robot (He's talking about his Box armor, by the way. Takes a lot more material than what he had on hand in that issue). The scan was mostly to prove that you were talking out of your rear when you said the last time Jeffries did anything was during Weapon X under the mental control of The Director -- which is greatly false as he's been with Beast and the X-Club for years since.

You brought in fading perspective, which will not be an issue. This is one of multiple times where you questioned me then claimed ignorance to what I was answering.

Fading perspective has nothing to do with Slade's aim, dude. It has to do with the fact that Slade does not have an angle that allows him to shoot at my team from the side because of the distance we're at -- fading perspective is when the degrees of the 360 degree area that surround my team grow larger as others gain distance from them. You'd have to be at a 20-30 degree angle to shoot around us and it'd take Slade a good bit of time to change that distance.

It's a matter of angles, not aim.

I would say you have a point but then again did I not say once Deathstroke goes for Jeffries in cover the other 2 would handle Alita and Terrific why would they keep firing on Jeffries in cover? and are you actually trying to use Mr Majestic a superman clone who has moved planets disarming my character as some sort of low showing.

Has Majestic ever moved planets with his eyebeams? I mean I'm not comparing Majestic's blasts and Terrific's (that'd be preposterous), it's just you made the statement that your weapons absorb energy and all I saw of one of them was her blocking it and having it knocked out of her hand for her effort -- if it absorbed it completely then there'd be no impact and it wouldn't fly out of her hands. The other one seemed to absorb it just fine.

And of course I have a point. You DID say Deathstroke goes for Jeffries after he makes the cover because you yourself set his blast staff would destroy the cover (while ignoring the force field, apparently). You also plainly stated you had 6 guns shooting on us. You changed your statement after the fact because of something I brought up.

The thing is, I don't mind. Neither of us should be expected to know 100% of each other's capabilities and our characters changing what they do as we alter our arguments is how battles work. I'm just completely baffled and annoyed at why you made such a big deal out of it when everyone in every CaV or tournament does this exact same thing, including yourself in this very thread.

I'd also like to address some double standards here. Your character's gear completely neutralized an attack from Mr Majestic and you, at the exact same time, complain to me about using the T-Spheres to make fields that supersede the durability limit while you're, apparently, doing the exact same thing. If your character is completely immune to Superman level eye beam or Captain Atom level energy attacks then why can't Mr. Terrific create a barrier that can take some bullets and a staff blast from Deathstroke without you calling foul by tournament rules?

Reflexes=reaction time otherwise we would have characters that are literally untouchable when standing still. One of the things of which there actually is no cap on is skill which is almost a tangible quality within the comicverse with characters like Cap being able to hold there own against Spiderman because of it.

The scan followed your question on how he was able to react to speedsters, you responded in a questioning manner as if I had provided it for no reason.

This is incorrect. The rules say no one with superior speed or agility to Spiderman, not reflexes or reaction time. That just means your character can't move around faster than Spidey, not that they can't have better reaction time.

You saying I am treating all explosive similarly is terribly hypocritical on your part when you compared gasoline with materials that are actually used in explosive devices outside of a riot.

This is incorrect. I compared the ability of a bullet to ignite a volatile compound. I wasn't saying Gas was exactly like military grade explosives -- gas is actually MUCH easier to set off, but Bullets can't accomplish even that. There was no hypocrisy in my statement -- I was merely pointing out how your view of a bullet's abilities to set off explosives is incorrect and based in terrible Hollywood logic.

It shouldn't take long for you to look into the inner workings of these things and find out that I am right and that a bullet will set off the materials used within the vast majority of explosive devices.

You're wrong, though. Bullets aren't hot enough to do anything of the sort unless they're incendiary rounds that are MEANT to set things on fire. Bullets aren't even hot enough to start a fire, especially after travelling 500 meters to reach their target.

You have Jeffries manipulating and organizing tonnes of materials and building multiple complex things within moments not just a bloody wall, despite that being above the TK limit, not enough materials within reach and terrible speculation on what he is capable of. A character who is being shielded by the couple of tonnes of the same material of which you are also trying to use to build other things while he is in a forcefield, a forcefield which is featless and even then can't hold up to a bullet let alone a discharge from an energy lance.

This is a lie. I brought up Jeffries manipulating a warehouse full of Box robots in response to you questioning his range -- I did not say he created a bunch of robots out of the materials.

"Terrible speculation" are you kidding me? In the picture alone there's plenty of material to pull off what I'm saying Jeffries does (Makes cover, then transmutes some cannons out of the cover to fire with at range)

Terrific's fields aren't featless. I gave you the feat. If you think a bullet has the kinetic power of a speeding car then you're daft. A speeding car would level a helicopter, too, btw.

You had Terrific opening with a lethal salvo on the basis of him throwing a character to a comic book death (don't see the body death) when he would be much more likely to turn around and leave with his team before doing that. This is far from the same scenario where he is trapped and moments from being killed by character he can do nothing to stop bar throwing him to this potential death.

Okay, I'm absolutely sick of this. You're SERIOUSLY REPEATING that Terrific is going to leave the goddamn tournament before he uses powerful force blasts? You're also STILL harping on the "no body death" thing when the point was Terrific's morals: Terrific clearly did not care whether Tomorrow Thief lived or died. It doesn't matter IF he did, it's what terrific is willing to do to win a life or death fight. As soon as Thief proved that he was a psychopath who couldn't be reasoned with, Terrific started firing force blasts at him, trying to throw ice spears through his head, and throwing him into a volcanic lake.

In battles, it is assumed that both teams cannot come to a reasonable conclusion and are fighting to win to the best of their abilities. The fact that you think it's more likely for Terrific to leave before firing force blasts makes my head spin. STOP. JOBBING. MY. TEAM.

Of course your going to laugh against the bees, one of those awkward laughs, it's crippling disavantage if they actually go off, you have mentioned something hitting them multiple times but you know yourself and it's pretty clear that those hits target the exact same spot with precise accuracy and with a swipe not a super heated bullet.

No Caption Provided

Section six is where the explosive are contained and would go off if an armour piercing bullet hit it. The thorax on your bees insects is the largest part which he never touches and unlike the lion the bullets won't care if the explosives go off.

Oh my god. Okay, I'm going to show you exactly why you're wrong about bullets setting off explosives. Here is the final few minutes of the mythbusters episode and I'm going to conclusively prove, using your own source, why you're wrong:

Loading Video...

Here's a direct link if this doesn't embed properly:

Click for Mythbusters.

I apologize for the choppiness, I don't know how to fix it. The important thing is what they say.

0:16 to 0:35

"The biggest problem with that is the RPG won't be armed at 16 feet, it takes a lot farther for it to get out. The RPG's just gonna keep right on going like a really big bullet"

This proves that the bullet will not set off the RPG until it arms from the RPG expert.

1:07 to 1:12

"We can do this by actually moving the target farther away from the RPG launcher where the RPG will actually be armed."

Once again stating the RPG has to be armed for the bullet to set it off. If it didn't require itself to be armed then these complications would not have happened. Do you know why this is true? For the exact same reason I said: RPGs, like almost all military grade explosives, are designed so that they will not explode due to stray fire or mishandling. RPGs specifically are designed so that they won't arm until they are a safe distance away from the person firing it.

1:51 to 1:58

"This piece of acryllic will represent our bullet. We know that once an RPG is armed, it doesn't take much to set it off"

A stationary piece of acrylic can set off an RPG once it's armed, and you don't think a robotic animal slicing it in half won't? Here's the scan for those who forgot:

No Caption Provided

DOZENS of bees being destroyed but not going off, clearly showing that the explosives weren't armed until they actually hit their target -- if you don't think the dog cutting them in half is equivalent to a piece of acrylic then I don't know what to say.

4:27 to 4:35

"Especially since, in the movie, the warhead would not have been armed on contact with the bullet, but the gun toting good guy."

Once again stating that a bullet won't set off an RPG until the RPG reaches arming distance. As I've shown, Missile Bees don't arm until they hit their target, otherwise they would've exploded when sliced in half.

Are you happy? Do I need to prove, further, than neither Bullets nor their heat can set off military grade warheads until they're armed?

Spin it how you like, if I know reasons in your characters history on why they would not do certain things then I will point them out. I would be a terrible debater if I let you get away with Terrific firing tank destroying blasts from the get go which you still haven't provided unless it was that scan of an armoured car and you where just overselling it or highlighting that Jeffries mental stability has decreased since his Alpha Flight days.

What do you mean I didn't provide a scan of him destroying a tank? It's right in the thread. Reposting it here for you -- this was literally Mr. Terrific's first success as a superhero:

No Caption Provided

Shoots a tank, with his T-sphere, blows it to pieces.

Jeffries mental stability is fine? He's capable of creating complex machines at Beast's request, he even falls in love with Danger (kind of weird but he's a technophile). Jeffries gets his alpha flight feats, dude. That's the entire premise of me picking him. You're talking about stuff that happened years ago -- he's been just fine with Dr. Nemesis and co with the X-club. I can give you the entire 1-5 X-Club scans if you want to prove it, I guess, but I'd rather not post over a hundred pages of scans.

When I picked characters I choose swordsmen people who use swords because within the genre bullets never hit, every named hero and his mother can dodge bullets which is why I was surprised to see someone who doesn't have the ridiculous amount of skill and olympic level reflexes that is so common.

Then why, despite all of this, have you consistently stuck by saying your team stays at full range and tries to get in a range war against people with better ranged weapons and abilities than them?

So I pushed at Jeffries like a blood hound

You actually said you split everyone's fire until you saw Jeffries construct cover for my team and that I had Mr. Terrific shoot at you. You then went and said that your team actually uses their swords to defend against Terrific (well, you said 2 people. You never actually said Slade defended himself...how about that?) so they can't quite be accurately firing on my team and my missile bees -- I covered this by using Terrific's field generating abilities while firing with his other t-spheres.

You've more or less, yourself, said your team does 3 different things in the opening moments of this fight. You said they fired 6 guns at my team, and assumed the bullets would kill jeffries despite taking some time to get there and my team having defenses. You then said you are ALSO shooting my Missile Bees as soon as Alita launches them, which implies that you aren't shooting at my team anymore (or atleast significantly directing your fire away from them). You've said that Deathstroke, instead, uses his Energy Staff while your other two combatants actually defend against Terrific's blasts using their swords -- which doesn't make sense as they'd have to drop their gun and pull out their sword, which they wouldn't be able to do fast enough. All of this while assuming Alita is incapable of shooting them, despite both your energy blast defense showings show Nemesis and Zealot not moving (Terrific doesn't have this problem thanks to the T-Sphere's ability to do separate things at the same time thanks to their being multiple. Alita doesn't have this problem because her Missile Bees are voice activated and she can fire/fight in melee while sending them out).

For someone who harps on retroactive strategy changes and doing too many things at once, you yourself are pulling the same thing to the exact same degree.

This appears to be the best dodging feat we have, although you described it as him dodging lasers, I'm selling this short because it's really bad this is the sort of dodging feat you would get from a character such as Lois Lane or Mary Jane, they avoid the fire simply by running away with no impressive reflexive showing you get when someone moves out of the way of a bullet that was actually going to hit them. Imagine how different this scenario would be if the robots hadn't been programmed by Stormtroopers and had shot straight at the door instead of hitting the entire frame.

I love how you just post the picture and outright ignore all the words I said. I threw the picture out as a joke, saying "Hey look, Jeffries can dodge! It's irrelevant as I've already stated he's being defended by self made cover and defensive fields rather than dodging, though!"

The robots weren't programmed by storm troopers, btw. Rogue AI that infected some merpeople (somehow) and gave a group of powerful X-Men a tough fight. That said, almost everyone's bullet dodging feats come from anonymous soldiers a through z who can't seem to hit a target to save their life.

It also goes against any idea of him manipulating metal quickly because those are just basic drones, there should be no reason why he wouldn't manipulate them if he could because the the A.I. is not stored on any of them.

Except it doesn't because you ignored my words to try to attack a picture.

On robotic accuracy Terrific always seems to be holding his T-Spheres when they fire in the scans you provided.

His T-spheres shoot all sorts of crap when he's not holding them. Ala:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

His T-Spheres can attack targets without him holding and directing them. I don't think there's any reason to believe he has to be holding a T-Sphere to us any of their abilities, all he has to do is mentally command them to execute a task.

In case I may have not posted enough scans to display skill. Zealot is so skilled that she is fighting Midnighter the guy with the broken computer, he resorts to using a weapon after taking a kick to the face and when they use weapons a 3 hour fight is over in moments.

Nemesis is as skilled or almost as skilled as Zealot, Zealot had tarined her for thousand of years after all. This scan is directly after the one where she flings Zavant at Zealot, you can tell by Grifter the most skilled Marksman in the Wildstorm universes remark. She blocked his fire while in another fight with her wrist mounted forcefield and then leapfrogs the fire to take him down.

After I have pressed the advantage against Jeffries these 2 and Deathstroke should be able to overwhelm the other 2 if they continue to dodge their fire. Deathstroke has the standard virtually indestructible promethium blade but Zealot has a Kusar blade that can cut through Supermen level characters with ease

Nemesis on the other hand has 2 Creation blades, parts of a universe destroying machine that can literally cut though anything and kill anything. They where the only things that could hurt Tao when he had achieved godlike powers and was an abstract being, he was left almost powerless while they where embedded within his body

The thing is, none of these melee feats are particularly relevant because you have outright stated that your team is staying at range and firing. You absolutely will not charge into melee range until you have the false assumption that Jeffries is taken down. I believe I've made a conclusive enough argument that your team isn't going to just snipe Jeffries at the start of the fight for an easy 2 on 3 fight.

I understand WHY you're doing what you're doing -- you, despite your characters not having this knowledge, won't allow your team to come close enough to Jeffries to allow him to manipulate your special swords and gear against you. That's WHY you're so adamant in saying that Jeffries dies early in the fight -- because he counters how melee and sword centric your team is.

It's funny because your team, with 0 marvel characters, is apparently fully aware of this and fight contrary to how they usually operate -- getting in close and slicing people up. But, I don't argue your characters for you. It has nothing to do with my "skill" as a debater, something that you seem so happy to parade about, and more to do with the fact it's not UP to me how your characters act. If they think that it's best to go into a firefight because they're starting 500 meters away from their opponent then far be it from me to tell you "No, they won't because they're sword users and prefer melee combat!"

It's not my place to do exactly what you're trying to do to me -- job your characters.

Also, you still never really contested how, despite the fact that Jeffries powers have extended to several hundred square feet danger rooms or connected to every single robot filling up a several hundred square meter room, why he can't use his powers on your weapons. You just said "that's 30 feet/meters" when it wasn't. But I've since moved along to Jeffries making some mounted guns and cover, but even that you have somehow twisted into a debate on such trivial and incorrect semantics like if a .3 square mile factory is capable of housing enough material for Jeffries to make cover or can Jeffries make material capable of defending against decent energy blasts -- all of which are OBVIOUSLY true but you had to contest to the bitter end no matter what.

So, in FINAL SUMMARY:

No, you can't set off military grade explosives before they arm with bullets. Your bullets will not prematurely detonate Missile Bees.

Yes, there's easily enough material for Jeffries to manipulate into walls and guns.

Yes, Jeffries constructs ARE capable of taking your attacks, as he's made Box robots out of raw material that were capable of taking multiple hits from heavy hitters like Thor and The Thing.

Yes, Jeffries range is more than 10 freaking meters(I still don't know where you got that number). It's closer to hundreds of meters considering his ability to control entire danger rooms or massive warehouses full of Box suits.

Jeffries mental stability is fine. You don't get to tell me I can't use his Alpha Flight feats because, years ago, bad stuff happened to him.

Yes, Terrific is more than willing to greatly harm or kill an opponent in life or death scenarios when diplomacy will not work (which is assumed in battles)

No, Terrific is not going to freaking leave the fight before he uses a force blast on your team.

The impact and subsequent release of heat energy causes it to disintegrate to dust and burn when it reaches air because of its pyrophoricproperties.[30] When a DU penetrator reaches the interior of an armored vehicle it catches fire, often igniting ammunition and fuel, killing the crew and possibly causing the vehicle to explode.

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#41 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

Very little new has been brought up. There's absolutely no reason to believe bullets set off explosives. Even the pyrophoric thing is unsubstantiated because A: the uranium is inside the bullet and the bullet wouldn't shatter on impact with the bees as you yourself have mentioned thanks to their armor piercing nature and B: you still haven't showed your team using uranium bullets. And even then they won't set off a non armed explosive. You gave me Mythbusters as your only proof and source that bullets can set off explosives and I showed you the Mythbusters themselves and the RPG Expert they hired saying, SEVERAL times, the bullet wouldn't set the RPG off without the RPG arming. Until you give me a better source than your own opinion that your bullets can set off non-armed explosives then I think the point is bunk. All I did was use your own misrepresented source against you.

Both of our debates hinge on whether you can kill Jeffries early on. I say you can't thanks to Terrific's fields, the starting distance, and Jeffries own abilities. You say you can because Jeffries IS a crackpot (that doesn't affect his powers, though?) and can't react.

I'm happy to go to voting since we're arguing in circles.

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#42 Edited by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced:

Not once in the video did they ever say that a bullet would not detonate an the explosives in a rocket, as I said earlier you have latched on to this notion that a rocket won't explode if it isn't armed. You said they couldn't be that dangerous when unfortunately military accidents in regards to premature discharges aren't that uncommon, reactive explosive substances aren't safe otherwise they wouldn't do their job. You even used gasoline as an example when it's not as reactive as composition b.

The copper covering of small firearms armour piercing bullet will shatter upon impact. There was a film where a guy used depleted uranium in a titanium casing but they would be awful bullets.

I provided links, the mythbusters video was the only thing you provided

I find it terribly unrealistic to survive a volley of fire from Deathstrokes energy lance as he makes his way towards him when he has a featless shield which by the rules can't handle more than a bullet, needs to make cover that can withstand that volley with the limited material in the opening scan even if Jeffries decides to canabilize Alitas bike

No Caption Provided

he really doesn't like helicopters

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Here it is blowing apart an incredibly thick wall and the pipe in the blast radius is torn apart.

Jeffries will be dead when all he has is these pipes and a bike to make cover that's thick enough, tall enough and wide enough to withstand a volley of blasts when the closest thing you have is him holding up a wall against falling debris, you where also using some of this material to attempt and build other things. He also can't even attempt to move you have him trapped in a forcefield with no line of sight to the guy thats gunning for him.

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We can go to voting unless you have anything to add.

@esquire

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#43 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

Just one thing:

Not once in the video did they ever say that a bullet would not detonate an the explosives in a rocket

They did. I even specifically pointed out where in the video he said that, if the Rocket wasn't armed, it would just keep going like a giant bullet after the bullet hit it.

I provided links, the mythbusters video was the only thing you provided

You provided one link to 2 out of context videos that ignored most of the rest of the episode. I got the episode, cut out much larger swathes of them explaining how RPGs worked to prove you wrong. I don't like your tone here -- I put in tons of effort analyzing YOUR source and using it to prove you wrong.

And yes, let's go to voting. You've done nothing but repeat the same things that I believe are absolutely incorrect and I believe I've done a good enough job of proving you quite wrong. Let the voters decide.

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#44 Edited by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

Just one thing:

Not once in the video did they ever say that a bullet would not detonate an the explosives in a rocket

They did. I even specifically pointed out where in the video he said that, if the Rocket wasn't armed, it would just keep going like a giant bullet after the bullet hit it.

And yes, let's go to voting. You've done nothing but repeat the same things that I believe are absolutely incorrect and I believe I've done a good enough job of proving you quite wrong. Let the voters decide.

That's why I said the explosive and pointed out multiple times that a bullet would detonate the explosive compound within and wasn't focused up on the arming part, that was the reason I mentioned the bees being a lot less durable than a plated rocket.

If you look at the comments I have corrected you multiple times. You have corrected me a couple of times but I then dropped those if I realized I had missed something.

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#45 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

Just one thing:

Not once in the video did they ever say that a bullet would not detonate an the explosives in a rocket

They did. I even specifically pointed out where in the video he said that, if the Rocket wasn't armed, it would just keep going like a giant bullet after the bullet hit it.

And yes, let's go to voting. You've done nothing but repeat the same things that I believe are absolutely incorrect and I believe I've done a good enough job of proving you quite wrong. Let the voters decide.

That's why I said the explosive and pointed out multiple times that a bullet would detonate the explosive compound within and wasn't focused up on the arming part, that was the reason I mentioned the bees being a lot less durable than a plated rocket.

If you look at the comments I have corrected you multiple times. You have corrected me a couple of times but I then dropped those if I realized I had missed something.

Even in the Mythbusters video the bullet pierces the nose of the rocket and it goes off before it ever hits part 6 on your diagram. You have done nothing but ASSUME bulelts do what you're saying they do. It's a hollywood myth, plain and simple.

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#46 Edited by juiceboks (24547 posts) - - Show Bio

Im going with @dredeuced since not only did he disprove Dexters own use of the Mythbusters video, but the defense with the T spheres was very solid. Mr. T and Jeffries on the same team is a deadly combo indeed.

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#47 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Posted by laflux (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: I 'd go for you

Very Good Debate, and I'm kinda bummed that CadenceV2 knocked me out

Also would you mind voting in my BT vs Ult Cap match CaV against Cadencev2

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#49 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: Toss me a link and I'll give it a read.

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