@theonewhoknows: and it clearly states that the 2 black holes need to have a thin passageway,if any on this list that can create black holes and doesn't have a passageway supes can't escape using the time/space mambo jambo they pull out of their asses so superman can survive any situation.
@theonewhoknows: in that scan superman was still breathing those molecules. And lol when SS turns himself into atoms how will he differentiate the surfer's atoms from normal particles??
If anything SS would straight go inside superman and just do whatever he damn pleases. It's funny how you always say Clark can resist everything SS can throw at him, when you still haven't even touched the subject of surfer weakening supes by weakening the bonds between his atoms, how is supes preventing SS from messing up with his insides and how supes is gonna deal with a astral plane silver surfer, how is supes escaping 5 black holes with no passageway at all, how is he gonna survive having his blood and liquids vaporised, or survive having his brain cut in half. Talking about ignoring stuff when you ignore every single way SS beats soupman so you can make the fake argument that supes can beat SS 50% of the times,
@blackstaroblivion: @the_living_tribunal_24: As anyone can see from just about any random thread they see me on-including this one-I will normally debate just about anyone, anywhere, anytime, for hours, even days on end. I don't care whether I'm in the majority, minority, whether I'm debating one on one or against multiple users---when I'm certain I have the facts on my side (or at least a good case to make) 99% of the time, I''m there.
You two, however, are in the 1% of users I don't engage with.
Blackstaroblivion, as I've told you many times now, your previous behavior when "debating" you-turning a frivolous discussion about comic book characters into a tiresome, snarky, one upmanship contest, name calling first, then throwing a fit when you get even a mild push back (like far too many users, you apparently think that you can insult users who disagree with you, and they're just supposed to take your behavior like a docile puppy) stating that if a character you're arguing against has even one low showing, it is "representative" of them, while all their stellar feats all are "outliers" (you once said that about a dozen examples of something) or other wise don't count, etc.--while none of the low showings, and all of the great feats "count " for the character your advocating for ("Heads I Win, Tails You Lose"). As I have had respectful debates off and on with others in the last few days-providing an excellent contrast to what these type of discussions should be-I have no desire to be in one who has conducted themselves the way you have previously. So when I see your name in the notification box, I immediately skip past you.
So for the umpteenth time-I am not interested in conversing with you.
The rules have a stipulation about harassing users; I suggest you follow it.
TheLivingTribunal24, after looking at the posts you produced the last few hours, it is clear that conversing with you is just not feasible. Not only have you posted some of the most counter factual-and even made up-things I've seen in awhile, but your style of debating is to willfully ignore even the most obvious, on panel evidence, and basically say "Nuh-Uuuuuhhhh", with no logical back up, like kids on the playground. Added to this that you actually stated-seriously-that Silver Surfer can defeat a JLA team with Superman, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, Hal Jordan Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, and Major Force at all, much less for a majority---and it becomes clear that you are just too enamored with the Surfer character to have a rational conversation with. Even some of the most rabid Norin Radd fans on that thread said he would be defeated; some asserted Radd would be "stomped". So if you won't even concede he gets beaten by a team like that, in my view you just can't be trusted to debate honestly about the character at all.
I'm slowing up on debating a bit anyway, with the holiday season here (my family has been arriving since Thursday, and I have been spending time with them); I am certainly not going to engage in a 25 page "Did Not!" "Did Too!" farce with you now.
I may reconsider if I notice you changing how you converse in the future. But for now, I have to forgo any interaction with you, at least about the Silver Surfer character.
@theonewhoknows: I also don't agree with people calling each other names other a fictional character, although funny it's not necessary, but bringing inconsistent high end feats like superman tanking a multi-solar system attack without being at least severely injured or knocked out it's just ridiculous and shouldn't be counted
@theonewhoknows: well well well you liar apparently supes didn't escape that black hole under his own power, he even states he would have just been pulled back in again, and then he asked the creature to open a rift so he could escape, he outright states he wouldn't be able to escape it.
@brucerogers: mehh, but it's a completely different point, and it's also long, if I were to put everything in one comment it would become a wall of text which I'm pretty sure even I would he bothered to read
@the_living_tribunal_24: Spam tagging isnt going to help your chances either. I suggest you type everything you want to say in one post and streamline it to make it more readable. Quoting and replying to each point you want to address in a single reply will make it look well formatted.
@brucerogers: I'm not trying to spam I swear, but if further down the line I get more information on characters you recon I should just edit my latest comment?
Okie doke, so reasons why Clark won't get passed the Silver Surfer:
1) The Surfer has better reaction speed than Clark. As I surmise, Clark is actually just below light speed, while the Surfer clearly reacts at FTL speeds.
2) The Surfer has better durability than Clark and can tank more punishment than Clark can.
3) Clark has obvious weaknesses to red solar radiation, kryptonite, etc....all things the Surfer can replicate (in a shared universe on the battle forums).
He beats all the heralds then moves on to Galactus and kills him too
Why? Because he's multi star system FTL GOD being
I've been told by someone called theonewhoknows that he is one therefore of course he must be
Superman destroys Galactus and moves on to LT and TOAA and kills them by farting. Finally, having soloed the Marvel universe he comes back to get his ass kicked by Batman as always
Well, a quick look in on this thread, and as usual some people advocating for Surfer cannot refute the case for Superman winning 50% of the time without willfully ignoring evidence, and/or devolving into juvenile name calling in a futile effort to distract from the fact that Superman can clear.
Yes, these demonstrable scans of Superman employing the durability, strength and speed to escape-with helpful narrations describing the action
---are actually proof of Kal not escaping because-because-well, for the famous Comic Vine reason of "just because".
And it's not like Supes has ever shown other examples of resisting Black Holes, like here https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-23e4d8a0cfb64119b9652f54233d79d4-c- then flew from another universe to our solar system for 60 days straight, enduring the vacuum, pressure, and several types of lethal radiations without a solar recharge, for good measure https://i.stack.imgur.com/cxwbw.jpg and here when he even held the crushing entropy of a black hole http://i.imgur.com/A9qHb7u.jpg powerful enough to destroy the solar system according to the JLA's sophisticated instrumentation http://i.imgur.com/GGrpYL0.jpgin the palm of his hand-to hold in that much power for even a second without getting torn apart, much less as long as Kal did is an unfathomable display of power---
or yet again here, when Superman resisted being pulled into a Black Hole despite one opening up directly under his feet in an ambush https://i.stack.imgur.com/IP9P1.jpg
---no, the idea of Superman escaping a Black Hole is just ridiculous.
Absorbing his solar energy - Whatever solar energy Surfer drains from him gets absorbed right back so that's one 'weakness' thrown out the window.
Red sun radiation - he's tanked a red sun eaters detonation that was 50x more powerful than Keplar's Supernova. So that's another 'weakness' thrown out the window.
Kryptonite - Supes has fought and survived with Kryptonite in his brain. He has also tanked attacks from Kryptonite Man so that's pretty much another 'weakness' thrown out the window.
Matter Manipulation - Supes tanked a cosmic storm that mutates matter and energy. He also withstood Sodam and Gamorrah's matter manipulation point blank attacks. There's a fourth 'weakness' thrown out the window.
Surfers planet busting energy attacks - Supes survived attacks from Void hound, who destroyed 10 star systems in one test run. Not to mention the 50x more powerful than Keplar's Supernova feat.
Aside from that, Supes has more raw power and faster combat and reaction speed than Norrin. Supes wins.
Aside from that, Supes has more raw power and faster combat and reaction speed than Norrin. Supes wins.
Indeed, combat and reaction speed is the most important. You can put Usain Bolt in his prime vs Bruce Lee in a sprint match in straight line at 100 or 200 meters, and Bolt will win rather easily I imagine. However when you put them in a ring Lee will also beat him rather easily, with superior combat speed, skills, reflexes and striking power.
So even if somehow accepting that Silver Surfer is faster as moving speed, Superman is faster as combat speed and stronger as raw power so he should win.
Now the people just quoted are the ones that "make a good point".
is a blue print for how a Superman/Surfer could possibly go (nowhere in any dialogue circle, thought bubble, or narration box does it say that Runner was moving at combat speeds (not travel-combat) during his battle with Radd that Supes can't match). As multiple characters-many who are weaker, slower, or BOTH than Kal have used physical force to hurt or even KO Surfer (including The Thing, The Rhino, Namor, The Hulk, Thor, Vranx, a Doombot, Ikon The Space Knight, Beta Ray Bill (with a ONE SHOT), The Runner, and (compared to Superman) slow as molasses Thanos. So there is no logical reason (many of Comic Vine's unblinking, unthinking devotion to the character doesn't count) why Superman couldn't do AT LEAST as well as those characters did.
The above shows Superman can win 50% of the time. And no amount of claiming only Superman's low points, and none of his stellar feats "count" (while in the reverse, counting only Radd's high points and none of his defeats) willfully ignoring evidence, name calling, or other low tactics used can change that fact.
Thank you. Don't get me wrong, Clark will always be the standard by which all other heavy weights are measured, but it just seems to me Norrin trumps Clark in pretty much every category.
*shrugs*
So, while I'm here, I thought I'd address some....comments from a certain poster on these forums. His username escapes right now...
@someuser said:
Well, a quick look in on this thread, and as usual some people advocating for Surfer cannot refute the case for Superman winning 50% of the time without willfully ignoring evidence, and/or devolving into juvenile name calling in a futile effort to distract from the fact that Superman can clear.
The alien Clark met inside the black hole is actually holding the black hole open for Clark to fly through. Previously, Clark attempted and failed.
This was a very strange feat. For one, Clark certainly has the straight line speed to escape the black hole, so why the writer indicated he struggled to even reach light speed is not clear. Clark flies well faster than light.
On the other hand, Clark's ability to endure black holes is somewhat questionable.
He barely escaped this smaller black hole
And he struggled to contain an even smaller one than that and needed assistance to do so
So, the feat itself is rife with inconsistencies.
Nevertheless, can Clark fly out of a black hole? With his straight line speed more than likely. Can he endure inside a black hole?
Hmmm, not so sure on that.
Yes, these demonstrable scans of Superman employing the durability, strength and speed to escape-with helpful narrations describing the action
---are actually proof of Kal not escaping because-because-well, for the famous Comic Vine reason of "just because".
No, not just because. As mentioned he had help. His alien buddy he met inside the black hole held it open for Clark.
So, it should be noted, this is Nu 52 Superman in the link just prior to this comment is powered up. Notice he is reverting from a Doomsdayish type character into Clark? Again, not something Clark did on his own.
then flew from another universe to our solar system for 60 days straight, enduring the vacuum, pressure, and several types of lethal radiations without a solar recharge, for good measure https://i.stack.imgur.com/cxwbw.jpg and here when he even held the crushing entropy of a black hole http://i.imgur.com/A9qHb7u.jpg powerful enough to destroy the solar system according to the JLA's sophisticated instrumentation http://i.imgur.com/GGrpYL0.jpgin the palm of his hand-to hold in that much power for even a secondwithout getting torn apart, much less as long as Kal did is an unfathomable display of power---
Yeah, as mentioned, John Stewart with the assist....
or yet again here, when Superman resisted being pulled into a Black Hole despite one opening up directly under his feet in an ambush https://i.stack.imgur.com/IP9P1.jpg
---no, the idea of Superman escaping a Black Hole is just ridiculous.
SMH.
....
So yeah, I could see Clark escaping due to his speed, but whether he could endure being inside one I'm not sure.
Also, this:
Absorbing his solar energy - Whatever solar energy Surfer drains from him gets absorbed right back so that's one 'weakness' thrown out the window.
Yeah, no.
The parasite for example, drained Clark and it took him several moments to even get close to full strength
The scan above seems to be consistent with the one from below indicating Clark regains power slowly from yellow sun. Absorbing and casting energy (plain Superman, not his red and blue counterparts) is not something Clark is really known for.
Red sun radiation - he's tanked a red sun eaters detonation that was 50x more powerful than Keplar's Supernova. So that's another 'weakness' thrown out the window.
He tanked one beam to protect.
The explosion being referred to didn't come until after the scan above....
Aside from the obvious inconsistencies with the exploding nova, Clark ultimately needed help to escape
Kryptonite - Supes has fought and survived with Kryptonite in his brain. He has also tanked attacks from Kryptonite Man so that's pretty much another 'weakness' thrown out the window.
Again, much like his so called resistance to red solar radiation, there are too many inconsistencies in his showings with kryptonite.
Matter Manipulation - Supes tanked a cosmic storm that mutates matter and energy. He also withstood Sodam and Gamorrah's matter manipulation point blank attacks. There's a fourth 'weakness' thrown out the window.
Myx never said he was trying to transmute Clark, just subject him to red kryptonite. The fact that Mxy said, "let's get some distance....", tells me prolonged exposure could've seriously harmed Clark
Surfers planet busting energy attacks - Supes survived attacks from Void hound, who destroyed 10 star systems in one test run. Not to mention the 50x more powerful than Keplar's Supernova feat.
I would like to see the scans on these. I don't recall the Void Hound destroying 10 star systems one at a time.
Aside from that, Supes has more raw power and faster combat and reaction speed than Norrin. Supes wins.
Yep.
I have Clark pegged at just below light in reaction speed.
The feat from Action Comics 642 I don't believe to be legitimate. Everyone that was brought there withing a nano second of time to be examined as to fitness to take over for Green Lantern was brought there by the ring and therefore exposed to ring energy.
Clark was one of them.
Then we see everyone brought to a nano second of time to be examined.
Then we see the conversation with Deadman and the ring's projection of Hal.
After everyone is returned to their own time line, we see miraculous things performed by the people that were summoned by the ring
Gallery
And at the end of the story, Clark's own admission that he was still juiced up by ring energy.
Also keep in mind, this feat took place during Byrne era Superman. Clark was considerably nerfed in power from his pre Crisis glory days. It wasn't until around Man of Steel issue 29, written in 1991 that Clark was officially powered up. Immediately after his power up, he struggled to even reach light in terms in reaction speed.
The feat from Action 642 is not a consistent portrayal of Clark's reaction up to that point in time.
Also, the feat from Adventures 603
isn't consistent with Clark's numerous times he was unable to over come time dilation. There are too many other contradictions indicating Clark is just under light in reaction speed.
Yet more typical "Heads I Win, Tail You Lose" stuff, where only Superman's defeats, and none of his stellar feats "count" for one nonsensical reason or another. Trying to dismiss one Black Hole resistance feat because he was Superdoom-but ignoring that by the time he endured, then escaped the Black Hole he was regular Superman again. Or trying also to dismiss it because it was N52 Superman---while ignoring that the "Rebirth" story lines have merged Superman's Post Crisis and N52 experiences and feats
The other Black Hole feat speaks for itself, no "Did not!" Did too"! back and forth is needed, nor with the "Hold the Black Hole In the hand" one; holding in something that was going to destroy the solar system in the palm of your hand for a second, much less as long as he did before Green Lantern helped without getting torn apart is an amazing example of strength and durability.
SUPERMAN WAS NOT "AMPED" BY GREEN LANTERN'S RING ENERGY-On the contrary, the energy that affected time quote, "for a fraction of a nano second between eternities of past and future" affected everyone except him and Deadman. Everyone else there is like a statue as Lantern probes these potential successors to him. Only Deadman-being a ghost-and Kal are able to move and speak to Hal. As he is in his Clark Kent identity (and Hal didn't know he was Supes at the time) Kal gives a flimsy excuse to explain why a "normal human civillian" is unaffected by saying "For ummmm some reason I'm speeded up so the time dilation you mentioned doesn't affect me either". He still had residual energy from the encounter, but it wasn't what allowed him to move fast enough to speak to Hal, he did that with his own speed. The zeal to lowball Superman at all costs is so tunnel visioned in the false notion that Superman can't keep up with Surfer that people don't bother correctly looking at the scans. Unbelievable.
Not to mention, even if one was able to "legitimately" wish away this speed feat (one cannnot) but even if it were possible---that doesn't magically erase the other nanosecond and above feats that ensures Supes has the speed to take out Radd.
As can clearly be seen in the "50 times bigger than Kepler's supernova" incident, as Kal is seen taking the explosion, the narration clearly states, quote, "the explosion was about 50 times the size of Kepler's supernova". Superman had to speed away from the "expanding ball of radiation", but he withstood the explosion and the "electromagnetic shockwave". There's no way to contradict what the text says.
Superman has resisted everything Radd could possibly do to him on multiple occasions:
DEFENSE:
KRYPTONITE- A) Since STRICTLY, ONLY Kryptonite from Superman's Earth One universe affects him, and/or a person STRICTLY, ONLY from Superman's Earth One universe can obtain/create the proper type, Surfer won't be able to utilize Kryptonite (this is true of allSupermen, Kryptonite has to be from their particular universe to harm them
(B) Even in the "combined" universe that is Comic Vine, there is no proof that Zenn-La, where Radd is from, is in the Earth One universe-it could be in Earth 2, the Apokolips Universe, or anywhere so STILL no go (C) Foreshadowing his eventual Kingdom Come Era virtual immunity from it, Kal has resisted Kryptonite more and more in recent years, still going after taking Metallo's Kryptonite Bomb followed by lingering Kryptonite radiation clouds and before that, despite being covered in Metallo's Kryptonite dust, defeating him and the rest of The Anti Kryptonian Squad (whose membership included Nuklon, Mongul, and Bizarro, all Superman level foes) (D) speaking of Metallo, even if Radd managed to miraculously create or obtain the correct kind, The Man Of Steel regularly out maneuvers, withstands, and defeats him and The Kryptonite Man, two opponents who are ALL ABOUT Kryptonite attacks, thus all of these factors show using that tactic against him is NOT a sure thing, and (E) Superman , since he uses combat speed a lot better and more often than Surfer, most likely speed blitzes Radd BEFORE he thinks to use Kryptonite, and KO's him. Superman has nanosecond https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/72524/3282457-7363874695-26303.jpg , fraction of a nanosecond http://imgur.com/a/Kizn3 , attosecond, http://www.geeksaresexy.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/sm_709_dylux_-9-copy-e1300679300858.jpghttp://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111130781/3556932-1976765855-26290.jpg-this catching Barry Allen Flash incident-where Barry was moving so fast he was, quote, "running faster than time" and warping reality-was confirmed as an attosecond feat by the DC sanctioned writer of the story Chris Roberson
faster than teleportation (Superman flew from Pluto , back to Earth in the same amount of time, or faster , than the Outlaws were able to teleport back to earth. That is 4.67 billion miles , in seconds, and Supes did this despite the fact he had to first work around Tamaranian cloaking tech designed to hide them from him)
is a blue print for how a Superman/Surfer could possibly go (nowhere in any dialogue circle, thought bubble, or narration box does it say that Runner was moving at combat speeds (not travel-combat) during his battle with Radd that Supes can't match).
Martian Manhunter on at least three occasions, including the above incident (note how a shocked Jonn' states that Supes, quote, "forced me out" of Kal's mind-there are few beings who could even momentarily STALL the Martian, much less do THAT); Braniac http://imgur.com/a/VCnVG (note how, despite Braniac amping up ever increasing "more power" in his TP assault, he is not able to take over Kal, ultimately destroying HIMSELF in his attempts); Maxwell Lord, even after several months of clandestine work, and finally having Supes under his control is not able to force Kal to kill http://i.imgur.com/Y1oio8F.jpg resists mind domination attacks from Neron;
above, defies Eradicator (note how, as Superman resists Eradicator, he helpfully remembers several OTHER powerful TP's that he has resisted over the years; I couldn't find the scans where Kal soon uses his devastating heat vision to achieve victory); and resists the simultaneous mental AND spiritual assault of "The Light Of Heaven" from Asmodel the Angel, which when effective results in instant madness http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/wonder-woman-vs-magneto-1714954/?page=5 (post 209; click the "spoilers" icon, it's the third scan). There are many, Many, MANY more examples so TP against Superman is NOT a "cinch win" for Norrin (unless someone wants to argue that Radd's TP is somehow more "special" than ALL those people I mentioned).
RED SUN-that is NOT an insta/cinch win over Kal. Someone that can endure this amount of red sun radiation while inside a Sun Eater and endure a supernova fifty times bigger than Keppler's supernova at the same timehttp://imgur.com/a/5fpnT; in the "Krypton Returns" story line, at one point go back in time and stay under a red sun, but not have his powers INSTANTLY evaporate and even after being there for quite awhile still maintain a lot of power (using his heat vision to power engines that stop an exact replica of Krypton from falling into its sun, which at this time, Krypton was said to have approximately 16 times the mass of Earth); in the 'Final Night' story line, Superman effectively used up his entire store of energy (as he had no sun to recharge him) and that period was at least weekslong; or, at the closing of the Infinite Crisis mini series fly through an entire red sun (and onto a planet laced with kryptonite for good measure)and still keep going is not going to-for sure-be instantly dropped by Radd. Long before Kal got to a diminished capacity he would fight back against Radd (he is certainly not going to just stand like a statue and do nothing in the meantime).
DRAINING-there is no reason why Kal couldn't re absorb his own solar energy back from Radd. Since this is one of the ways Radd's powers work: As revealed in the "Annihilation" story arc, The Surfer's skin is designed to absorb various energies from beta particles to light. He is constantly being charged from hundreds of nearby stars and energies from distant galaxies. He can change this absorption into reflection if he chooses ---and this is how Superman's powers work: Superman can also absorb solar energies of other class stars such as white stars and also when he absorbed the solar energies of a blue star that increased his abilities to a higher degree and gave him additional abilities. The light of dwarf stars, pulsars, and quasars also grants Superman different abilities---- in Surfer's case it is highly doubtful Supes can be drained by him, since as he's doing it Kal will be absorbing that energy, and any star energy Surfer is casually absorbing, right back from him. Even the most minute amount or strain of heat/solar energy can be drained by Supes from a person (like Rampage, and this is the WEAKER JOHN BYRNE version of Kal)
So given the above examples it simply defies logic to claim Superman, who drained-fairly quickly-a half a galaxy destroyingamount of anti sunlight from Megaddon will have much trouble reabsorbing his own solar energy back from Radd, probably in mid transfer.
The facts above, along with Supes surviving draining from Parasite (who can drain any form of energy, and can drain people down to their DNA and become them) make it clear that "draining" Superman is not a sure thing. Superman NATURALLY, CASUALLY absorbs all kinds of solar energy not just from the sun, but from neighboring stars, quasars, dwarf stars, even the secondary solar energy found in the Earth and the photosynthesis solar energy stored in plants---therefore Radd really has no way to prevent Superman re absorbing his own solar energy back-or even casually soaking up the star energy that Radd casually absorbs. Superman can literally absorb solar energy just by standing next to Surfer.
TRANSMUTATION/MOLECULAR MANIPULATION-He has withstood his molecules being transformed by mega powerful opponents such as the husband and wife team of Sodom and Gamorra http://imgur.com/a/eX4ISSkyhook http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/81805/1686017-supestransmutation.jpg who was empowered by Blaze, a Death Goddess powerful enough to challenge Neron for control of The Nether Realms and WIN; Disciple who was powered by several Elder Gods and-though he altered the bodies/molecules of of the JLA-including Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, and Kyle Rayner Green Lantern-Kal tanked his efforts, smiled, said "Is that the best you got?" then snatched his staffhttp://imgur.com/a/JvgnY; and Darkseid during the "Legends" mini series (who's Omega Effect was attuned to Superman's exact molecular structure, yet Kal fought back against this)http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/45351/2350861-1066461_1183yv_super.jpg (and here is the rarely seen next scene where Supes immediately hits Darkseid back (Superman states that Kryptonite is a worse feeling)
I have more on stand by, but the above examples are MORE than enough to prove the point. I just don't see Surfer's powers being SOOO much more "special" than those beings that he could-FOR SURE- achieve what they could not.
RAY BLASTS-since Kal's durability feats include the aforementioned supernova feat, absorbing the half a galaxy destroying ANTI sun energy from Megaddon and SMILING https://imgur.com/a/aHR4A, and, except for saying "UUUHH" tanking the "destroy 10 Star Systems in one go" blasts of the Void Hound, a construct that doesn't have the capacity to show mercy, or to "hold back" it's power when it was trying to terminate Kal http://imgur.com/a/ZvaG2 (just a test run of it's blasts-when it wasn't even trying-destroyed 10 Star Systems in one go http://i.imgur.com/2gREOpX.jpg , I believe Surfer's blasts won't be a problem.
Not to mention, Supes, if he didn't want to be bothered, could vibrate to intangibility and let them pass harmlessly through him (the way he did in Superman issue 175 which rendered Doomsday's punches, flame breath, and eyeball energy blasts useless,
or Mongul's punches
and how he did in Superman issue 170 which rendered Mogul's and Mongal's combined energy blasts ineffective).
The above vividly illustrates that Superman can resist all of Radd's tactics
On OFFENSE:
SILVER SURFER'S FORCE FIELD-If Surfer erected a force field, Superman has physically smashed force fields, Green Lantern force field constructs, and his heat vision is powerful enough to disrupt and break through force fields with infinite event horizons...
...The heat vision is even capable of repairing reality itself http://i.imgur.com/qa9CHtW.jpg more evidence Radd's force fields might be bypassed by Kal).
OVERWHELM SURFER WITH COMBAT SPEED AND PHYSICAL POWER-As noted earlier, statistically, Superman uses combat speed waaaay more often, and with better strategy than Radd (a user in another thread awhile back displayed over 80 examples where Kal used his speed and/or blitzed right off). And Supes has the strength and striking power ( can one shot smash a meteor big and dense enough to destroy the Earth http://i.imgur.com/b6ISW3b.jpg which, since Kal can smash something that can destroy a planet makes him a planet smasher) to KO Surfer before he can recover enough to fight back, or at least stun him long enough to do one of the following things:
COUNTER VIBRATION-(A) If Superman can match the natural vibrational frequency of the abstract form of Darkseid (which at the time was affecting the multiverse), or on another occasion a large, other reality, omniverse threatening, molecularly unstable planet, counter vibrate them, then wipe them out of existence...
...it defies logic that he can't do the same to a not nearly as large, 6 foot or so humanoid
BATTLE FIELD REMOVAL-(B) If all else fails, Kal can BFR Surfer into the Phantom Zone, or, while giving him planet smashing punishment on the way there, super speed rush Radd onto the Source Wall.
So clearly, Superman can defeat Silver Surfer.
If one doesn't use the typical Comic Vine tactic to lowball Superman-playing the "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" game where ALL of his low showings "count" but NONE of his stellar ones do (while of course, doing the reverse for Surfer by stating ONLY his best feats "count" but NONE of his defeats do), willfully ignoring Superman's stellar feats altogether, claiming the above is "too long" and refusing to read it, devolving into juvenile name calling, creating silly memes, etc.---there is no reasonable, factual way to deny the above scenarios could absolutely happen.
Now needless to say, since fights are funny things and hard to nail down PRECISELY how they would go, Surfer can definitely beat Superman in a random encounter. But evidence indicates Superman can beat Surfer too, 50% of the time.
@theonewhoknows: what a lier those feats have been debunked, he couldn't escape the black hole he even said he needed the monsters help, or he would for sure not be able to escape.
@theonewhoknows: but unluckily to you silver surfer has tanked headbuts capable of destroying a solar system, does superman have solar system busting strength. Because you know we can't ignore this stellar feat.
Oooooooh! SCARY! Superman, if he were hit with a blast from this being, would be incinerated!
Well, actually...
Superman's durability is so stellar, he can endure an amazing amount of red sun radiation while inside a Sun Eater and endure asupernova fifty times bigger than Keppler's supernova at the same timehttp://imgur.com/a/5fpnT ; absorb the half a galaxy destroying ANTI sun energy from Megaddon and be SMILING afterwards https://imgur.com/a/aHR4A , except for saying "UUUHH" tank the "destroy 10 Star Systems in one go" blasts of the Void Hound, a construct that doesn't have the capacity to show mercy, or to "hold back" it's power http://imgur.com/a/ZvaG2 (just a test run of it's blasts, when this nefarious nightmare wasn't even trying, destroyed 10 Star Systems in one go http://i.imgur.com/2gREOpX.jpg
Kingdom Gog’s staff is very powerful, because, as it has the combined power of the Emerald Energy of the Guardians of the Universe, the cosmic energy of the Source, and the MAGICAL might of Shazam and Zeus http://i.imgur.com/qDBgsb3.jpg-- oops, to Gog's startled bafflement, Superman withstands the blast without a mark on him then rescues his various JLA and JSA colleagues-
---so, as these examples display durability above "planetary", it appears quite apparent that Stardust's blasts wouldn't be a problem.
Not to mention, Supes, if he didn't want to be bothered, could vibrate to intangibility and let them pass harmlessly through him (the way he did in Superman issue 175 which rendered Doomsday's punches, flame breath, and eyeball energy blasts useless,
or Mongul's punches
and how he did in Superman issue 170 which rendered Mogul's and Mongal's combined energy blasts ineffective).
Two can play the "intangibility" game.
Well, speaking of that, Stardust can go intangible---so it's a wash! If Stardust chooses, Supes can't touch him! So THERE!
Wrong...
Superman's heat vision can affect ghost like, or intangible opponents like here http://i.imgur.com/XtHpJwz.jpg and here, against The Weird, who can alter his body to phase, and/or achieve an intangible state http://i.imgur.com/nJM7Kp6.jpg And since Post Crisis Supes, due to the "Rebirth" story line, is now combined with the history, experiences, and abilities of N52 Superman---Kal can freeze intangible opponents with a flash freeze http://i.imgur.com/cqvteCC.jpg ; his breath is powerful enough to freeze his equal Bizarro in place http://i.imgur.com/HGLESCH.jpg
Since Superman's heat vision's powerful enough to:
disrupt and break through force fields with infinite event horizons...
...the above is more evidence Superman can affect Stardust whether he is intangible or not (although, since the character has been physically affected by opponents many times, the point is moot).
Well, Stardust will just regenerate! What about that, Mr. Smarty Pants---what will your precious Superman do now??
Superman's Options To Vanquish Regeneration:
( If Superman can discern the natural vibrational frequency of the abstract form of Darkseid (that had infected the multiverse) and, in a separate incident the frequency of a large, omniverse threatening, molecularly unstable planet, match their frequencies, then counter vibrate them to oblivion...
...it defies logic that he can't do the same to a not nearly as large, 6 foot or so humanoid
(C) If all else fails, Kal can BFR Stardust into the Phantom Zone, or, while giving him planet smashing punishment on the way there, super speed rush Stardust onto the Source Wall (if the former herald goes intangible, Kal can flash freeze him solid, then rush him onto the wall).
Ah, Stardust opens up black holes and shoves the Kryptonian into it!
Confound it, Stardust opens up a Black Hole inside Clark's overrated hide!!
Ummmm...
In "Superman Unchained" issues 3 and 4, Superman withstands the point blank shots of a powerful Black Hole laser which could also affect his physiology: after just one hit he was visibly damaged but he recovered in few moments and was ready to fight.
so putting some holes in Supes is not some game changing ordeal.
Or, as mentioned earlier Kal could vibrate to intangibility, which would render the above tactic useless.
Yes indeed---just as with Silver Surfer, Kal has the stuff to withstand whatever Stardust puts out, and the versatile power set to take Stardust out.
It's always been a strange phenomenon to me-many users who present the facade of being sooooo confident in their views of Superman losing a battle are always trying to label his stellar feats as "outliers" (in one instance, even a dozen with many more on standby were given that term) or low ball, disqualify, ignore, or dismiss them away---while little 'ol me allows every non PIS feat-even little used ones-a character has to be brought to the table, no holds barred, and instead of trying to "disqualify" the feats, I am always confident I will be able to use an on panel feat by Superman that counters them.
Strange, indeed.
The above scenarios cannot be disputed factually; only the typical Comic Vine tactics of willfully ignoring evidence, name calling, claiming "Der, Stardust stomps" with no justification and other "stellar" low brow methods that don't change the truth can be used.
Translation:
The Man Of Steel gets by Stardust, makes it to Silver Surfer, defeats shiny skins in the manner I described earlier, and then-
Stops @ 3 The list is out of order .. terrax should be at 1.
why is silver surfer at number 8 ?
silver surfer struggled with nova one of the weakest heralds , and he got his ass kicked by thanos a couple of times plus he even lost to terrax in a alternate dimension but still silver surfer would destroy supes any day
Oooooooh! SCARY! Superman, if he were hit with a blast from this being, would be incinerated!
Well, actually...
Superman's durability is so stellar, he can endure an amazing amount of red sun radiation while inside a Sun Eater and endure asupernova fifty times bigger than Keppler's supernova at the same timehttp://imgur.com/a/5fpnT ; absorb the half a galaxy destroying ANTI sun energy from Megaddon and be SMILING afterwards https://imgur.com/a/aHR4A , except for saying "UUUHH" tank the "destroy 10 Star Systems in one go" blasts of the Void Hound, a construct that doesn't have the capacity to show mercy, or to "hold back" it's power http://imgur.com/a/ZvaG2 (just a test run of it's blasts, when this nefarious nightmare wasn't even trying, destroyed 10 Star Systems in one go http://i.imgur.com/2gREOpX.jpg
Kingdom Gog’s staff is very powerful, because, as it has the combined power of the Emerald Energy of the Guardians of the Universe, the cosmic energy of the Source, and the MAGICAL might of Shazam and Zeus http://i.imgur.com/qDBgsb3.jpg-- oops, to Gog's startled bafflement, Superman withstands the blast without a mark on him then rescues his various JLA and JSA colleagues-
---so, as these examples display durability above "planetary", it appears quite apparent that Stardust's blasts wouldn't be a problem.
Not to mention, Supes, if he didn't want to be bothered, could vibrate to intangibility and let them pass harmlessly through him (the way he did in Superman issue 175 which rendered Doomsday's punches, flame breath, and eyeball energy blasts useless,
or Mongul's punches
and how he did in Superman issue 170 which rendered Mogul's and Mongal's combined energy blasts ineffective).
Two can play the "intangibility" game.
Well, speaking of that, Stardust can go intangible---so it's a wash! If Stardust chooses, Supes can't touch him! So THERE!
Wrong...
Superman's heat vision can affect ghost like, or intangible opponents like here http://i.imgur.com/XtHpJwz.jpg and here, against The Weird, who can alter his body to phase, and/or achieve an intangible state http://i.imgur.com/nJM7Kp6.jpg And since Post Crisis Supes, due to the "Rebirth" story line, is now combined with the history, experiences, and abilities of N52 Superman---Kal can freeze intangible opponents with a flash freeze http://i.imgur.com/cqvteCC.jpg ; his breath is powerful enough to freeze his equal Bizarro in place http://i.imgur.com/HGLESCH.jpg
Since Superman's heat vision's powerful enough to:
...the above is more evidence Superman can affect Stardust whether he is intangible or not (although, since the character has been physically affected by opponents many times, the point is moot).
Well, Stardust will just regenerate! What about that, Mr. Smarty Pants---what will your precious Superman do now??
Superman's Options To Vanquish Regeneration:
( If Superman can discern the natural vibrational frequency of the abstract form of Darkseid (that had infected the multiverse) and, in a separate incident the frequency of a large, omniverse threatening, molecularly unstable planet, match their frequencies, then counter vibrate them to oblivion...
...it defies logic that he can't do the same to a not nearly as large, 6 foot or so humanoid
(C) If all else fails, Kal can BFR Stardust into the Phantom Zone, or, while giving him planet smashing punishment on the way there, super speed rush Stardust onto the Source Wall (if the former herald goes intangible, Kal can flash freeze him solid, then rush him onto the wall).
Ah, Stardust opens up black holes and shoves the Kryptonian into it!
Confound it, Stardust opens up a Black Hole inside Clark's overrated hide!!
Ummmm...
In "Superman Unchained" issues 3 and 4, Superman withstands the point blank shots of a powerful Black Hole laser which could also affect his physiology: after just one hit he was visibly damaged but he recovered in few moments and was ready to fight.
so putting some holes in Supes is not some game changing ordeal.
Or, as mentioned earlier Kal could vibrate to intangibility, which would render the above tactic useless.
Yes indeed---just as with Silver Surfer, Kal has the stuff to withstand whatever Stardust puts out, and the versatile power set to take Stardust out.
It's always been a strange phenomenon to me-many users who present the facade of being sooooo confident in their views of Superman losing a battle are always trying to label his stellar feats as "outliers" (in one instance, even a dozen with many more on standby were given that term) or low ball, disqualify, ignore, or dismiss them away---while little 'ol me allows every non PIS feat-even little used ones-a character has to be brought to the table, no holds barred, and instead of trying to "disqualify" the feats, I am always confident I will be able to use an on panel feat by Superman that counters them.
Strange, indeed.
The above scenarios cannot be disputed factually; only the typical Comic Vine tactics of willfully ignoring evidence, name calling, claiming "Der, Stardust stomps" with no justification and other "stellar" low brow methods that don't change the truth can be used.
Translation:
The Man Of Steel gets by Stardust, makes it to Silver Surfer, defeats shiny skins in the manner I described earlier, and then-
Superman clears.
wrong , morg was listed even when superman was in his silver age time he may not even be able to beat morg that guy took on every herald at the same time
@pastepotpete1: said: wrong , morg was listed even when superman was in his silver age time he may not even be able to beat morg that guy took on every herald at the same time
Right, actually---Post Crisis Superman has team busted multiple times-The Titans, The Maximums, The Elite, The Fearsome Five, The Anti Kryptonian Squad (who's large membership included Mongul, Nuklon, and Bizarro, all Superman level foes) A JLA team that included Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Wally West Flash, Kyle Rayner Green Lantern and Orion, a squadron of Big Bang empowered, team busting Imperiex Probes, and more. Morg has nothing on Superman with regards to facing multiple herald level characters.
And if Superman lured Morg into fighting him near the sun-the same sun that increased his power to the point that he broke freakin' Darkseid's arm and super speed pummeled him to near unconsciousness before sticking him onto The Source Wall, beat back Kryptonian God Cythonna, and carry the planet War World (which was carrying the Imperiex/Braniac combo) around like a tinker toy (despite the counter force of the planet moving at faster than light speeds) through a Boom Tube and it's defeat-oh, yes, Superman absolutely can beat Morg.
So, for now I want to simply focus on Superman's reaction speed.
Here is the original comment, spoiler blocked:
Yet more typical "Heads I Win, Tail You Lose" stuff, where only Superman's defeats, and none of his stellar feats "count" for one nonsensical reason or another. Trying to dismiss one Black Hole resistance feat because he was Superdoom-but ignoring that by the time he endured, then escaped the Black Hole he was regular Superman again. Or trying also to dismiss it because it was N52 Superman---while ignoring that the "Rebirth" story lines have merged Superman's Post Crisis and N52 experiences and feats
The other Black Hole feat speaks for itself, no "Did not!" Did too"! back and forth is needed, nor with the "Hold the Black Hole In the hand" one; holding in something that was going to destroy the solar system in the palm of your hand for a second, much less as long as he did before Green Lantern helped without getting torn apart is an amazing example of strength and durability.
SUPERMAN WAS NOT "AMPED" BY GREEN LANTERN'S RING ENERGY-On the contrary, the energy that affected time quote, "for a fraction of a nano second between eternities of past and future" affected everyone except him and Deadman. Everyone else there is like a statue as Lantern probes these potential successors to him. Only Deadman-being a ghost-and Kal are able to move and speak to Hal. As he is in his Clark Kent identity (and Hal didn't know he was Supes at the time) Kal gives a flimsy excuse to explain why a "normal human civillian" is unaffected by saying "For ummmm some reason I'm speeded up so the time dilation you mentioned doesn't affect me either". He still had residual energy from the encounter, but it wasn't what allowed him to move fast enough to speak to Hal, he did that with his own speed. The zeal to lowball Superman at all costs is so tunnel visioned in the false notion that Superman can't keep up with Surfer that people don't bother correctly looking at the scans. Unbelievable.
Not to mention, even if one was able to "legitimately" wish away this speed feat (one cannnot) but even if it were possible---that doesn't magically erase the other nanosecond and above feats that ensures Supes has the speed to take out Radd.
As can clearly be seen in the "50 times bigger than Kepler's supernova" incident, as Kal is seen taking the explosion, the narration clearly states, quote, "the explosion was about 50 times the size of Kepler's supernova". Superman had to speed away from the "expanding ball of radiation", but he withstood the explosion and the "electromagnetic shockwave". There's no way to contradict what the text says.
Superman has resisted everything Radd could possibly do to him on multiple occasions:
DEFENSE:
The above vividly illustrates that Superman can resist all of Radd's tactics
On OFFENSE:
So clearly, Superman can defeat Silver Surfer.
If one doesn't use the typical Comic Vine tactic to lowball Superman-playing the "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" game where ALL of his low showings "count" but NONE of his stellar ones do (while of course, doing the reverse for Surfer by stating ONLY his best feats "count" but NONE of his defeats do), willfully ignoring Superman's stellar feats altogether, claiming the above is "too long" and refusing to read it, devolving into juvenile name calling, creating silly memes, etc.---there is no reasonable, factual way to deny the above scenarios could absolutely happen.
Now needless to say, since fights are funny things and hard to nail down PRECISELY how they would go, Surfer can definitely beat Superman in a random encounter. But evidence indicates Superman can beat Surfer too, 50% of the time.
Let's look at this bit right here:
SUPERMAN WAS NOT "AMPED" BY GREEN LANTERN'S RING ENERGY-
Yes. He was. How EVERYONE else in that book was amped, but Clark was not, escapes me.
On the contrary, the energy that affected time quote, "for a fraction of a nano second between eternities of past and future" affected everyone except him and Deadman.
Well, the part that you have in quotes is what is actually said in the narration of the book.
That bit about Clark and Deadman not being affected is never delineated -- ANYWHERE -- in the book, so....Deadman is immune to time, as the scan below clearly indicates. As to Clark moving about freely in the time stream in Action Comics 642 under his OWN speed.....
complete baloney.
Everyone else there is like a statue as Lantern probes these potential successors to him. Only Deadman-being a ghost-and Kal are able to move and speak to Hal.
That is true. And anyone familiar with Deadman's power set knows he has always been beyond space and time.
As to why Clark is moving around, I'll get to that momentarily...
As he is in his Clark Kent identity (and Hal didn't know he was Supes at the time) Kal gives a flimsy excuse to explain why a "normal human civillian" is unaffected by saying "For ummmm some reason I'm speeded up so the time dilation you mentioned doesn't affect me either".
True again. But that doesn't explain why to the reader Clark can all of sudden react well beyond light speed when previously, this was waaayyyy beyond Clark's wheelhouse of powers.
He still had residual energy from the encounter, but it wasn't what allowed him to move fast enough to speak to Hal, he did that with his own speed.
Nope. How would everyone else be able to perform all these miraculous things, yet Clark wasn't affected by Oan energy? Clearly everyone that was summoned by Oan energy was still affected by Oan energy when they returned to their respective timelines.
The zeal to lowball Superman at all costs is so tunnel visioned in the false notion that Superman can't keep up with Surfer that people don't bother correctly looking at the scans. Unbelievable.
I'm not low balling Superman.
Okay. So let's look at the full explanation as to why this, below from Action Comics 642....
....is not a legitimate showing for Clark.
1) So, as everyone knows, the Crisis happened and Clark was nerfed in terms of power by John Byrne. One of the things Clark was explicitly incapable of doing, was travelling time.
It's important to note at this point, the scan immediately above is from Action Comics 642, written in 1989. I'll make it clear why that's a thing at all later.
Action Comics, 591 - 1987, below.
So, it's clear, Clark could not enter the time stream. Can he travel faster than light? Indeed, the scan above allows for that and subsequent showings of Clark clearly indicate that. But clearly, he does not have the speed to enter the time stream and otherwise control where he goes in time.
After this scan below, from Action Comics 642...
....less than a few years after the scan from Action Comics 642 above, we see Clark being flung UNCONTROLLABLY....throughout the time stream, in Action Comics 664....
So, why would Clark be able to move freely through the time stream, easily allegedly overcoming TIME DILATION under his own speed in Action 642 and NOT be able to over come time dilation only a few years later in Action 664? Obviously, were Clark actually faster than light in reaction speed, then he could overcome time dilation.
2) While Byrne deliberately nerfed the Man of Steel in power and speed, later in Clark's continuity Clark was powered up again. We see this clearly demonstrated in issues of Man of Steel, issue 29. Notice Clark's opponent does little to evade Clark, almost maintaining the same position throughout the entire fight....
Gallery
Above, Clark's opponent does little more than to side step Clark to avoid him. Also notice the ENORMOUS strain it places on Clark just to get close to light speed. In fact, Clark clearly indicates that he was EXHAUSTED after the effort:
So why did he allow himself to be caught by Clark?
He enjoys testing himself against the best opponents different planets have to offer. Clark was one of them:
3) Subsequent showings of Clark clearly indicate Clark cannot react at FTL speeds, overcoming time dilation.
A commonly misunderstood scan is from Superman 73, vol II:
Above, proponents of Clark having FTL reaction speed indicate that the reason Clark is still moving even though everyone else around him is frozen in time is because of alleged FTL reaction speed on the part of Clark. In fact, throughout the remainder of that issue, Waverider moved Clark through the time stream. It was clear Clark could not do it under his own speed.
So why was everyone frozen in time while Clark appeared to be unaffected?
It's Waverider's calling card. Time freezes for everyone else except the person Waverider is currently engaged with:
Notice above, just like the scan previous to this one, Superman is mystified as to why time is stopped. When Waverider shows up, it becomes clear to Clark why time was frozen.
Now for comparison's sake, a character that can completely over come dilation under their own speed would not be inhibited by time dilation at all. In Man of Steel 29, we see Clark moves like he's swimming in molasses. Below, we see Gladiator engaged in combat with Thor (Thor was doing it with Reed's tech), completely uninhibited in time dilation....
Gallery
Hence, Clark moving about in slow motion in time dilation is an indicator he is near light, NOT FTL in reaction speed.
So, I can speak at length on this, but a quick summary would read this way:
Post Crisis Clark was nerfed in strength and speed post Crisis by John Byrne.
Clark was then powered up quite a bit right around 1994. The increase in power resulted in an increase in speed: near light. Not FTL.
Therefore, the scan from Action Comics 642 written in 1989, well before Clark was powered up.....is inconsistent with a maximum effort demonstration of speed in Man of Steel 29, written several years later. The scan from Action 642 is also inconsistent with Clark's later showings of reaction speed, even well after he was powered up. As well, Clark was juiced an Oan ring energy. In fact, everyone that was drawn to that time line by the ring...
Gallery
Was aglow with Oan energy, including Clark.
Once everyone was returned to their own time line, they all performed miraculous things:
Gallery
Obviously, the only reason Clark was able to overcome time dilation under his own speed is because he was juiced on Oan energy and already had a measure of super speed. The Oan energy helped him overcome time dilation. However, everyone else save for Deadman, was still frozen in time, even Nightwing, because none of those people, even with Oan energy, could overcome time dilation.
And I'm only touching the tip of the iceberg here on Clark's alleged FTL reaction speed.
To anyone still bothering to debate with TheOneWhoKnows he insinuated that Superman and Despero are galaxy level, just go to the Durability test: superman vs thors full force godblast thread
Still using the "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" method of evidence acceptance, where any feat that shows Superman lacking "counts", while feats that show him at at stellar level-no matter how many on panel, see-with-one-own-eyes ones there are, "doesn't count" for that famous Comic Vine reason of "just because".
All the people who are in the glow of the energy-including Superman and Deadman-are "glowing" because the ring is keeping them in time dilation, not "juicing" or "amping" them. Only Deadman, unaffected because he is a ghost, and Superman, because he is fast enough to speed up out of the effect, is able to speak to Hal normally. Superman's own dialogue confirms it. And this is not a one time thing for Superman to show this level of speed-
or when the Kryptonian is proved to be fast enough in combat/reaction time to speed through a total stoppage of time http://imgur.com/a/PuLOt smacking away the artifact that was causing it from his opponent's hand (wherein the villain vociferously voices out loud how impressed he is that Supes pulled this off) more than once http://i.imgur.com/OaXO6T7.jpg -here, Kal breaks out of a total time freeze even faster and grabs one of the kids attacking him. There is another incident where a Monitor froze time, and everyone in the room was frozen except Superman who sped up enough to walk through it. The Waverider incident doesn't negate those feats; but if one wants to play it that way, then according to this "logic" the time Surfer defeated a Doombot is negated by the time a Doombot beat Radd down and KO'D him. Or the time Surfer handled Beta Ray Bill "doesn't count" due to the time Bill one-shotted Radd. Or if, despite Superman having multiple speed feats well over FTL, one long ago instance of him saying he was below that "overrules" all those feats, then we can use that standard on The Silver Surfer; despite multiple feats of Radd being over FTL, because of the following incident
since Surfer clearly says-out of his own mouth-that, quote, "I can fly near the the speed of light" (not over, or even at the speed of light, but only "near" it)---then using the "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" rules always applied to Superman by some, then this one incident above "overrules" all of Radd's other speed feats, and thus he can only move near the speed of light.
What---that kind of ridiculous double standard is not going to be accepted for Radd?
I didn't think so.
Therefore---
As it has to continually be reinforced-if one tries to claim that only Superman's defeats "count", then that "reasoning" can be used against Surfer, or any other character for that matter.
For the umpteenth time-no "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" games are going to be allowed.
Ah, I see once again it is claimed Superman can't get past Stardust-with no back up to justify that notion of course, just the "Der, Stardust stomps" style of "reasoning" I mentioned earlier so prevalent on Comic Vine...
...and another "stellar" user is blaming me, the messenger for pointing out that Superman has more than one, on panel feats such as he can endure an amazing amount of red sun radiation while inside a Sun Eater and endure a supernova fifty times bigger than Keppler's supernova at the same timehttp://imgur.com/a/5fpnT ; absorb the half a galaxy destroying ANTI sun energy from Megaddon and be SMILING afterwards https://imgur.com/a/aHR4A , except for saying "UUUHH" tank the "destroy 10 Star Systems in one go" blasts of the Void Hound, a construct that doesn't have the capacity to show mercy, or to "hold back" it's power http://imgur.com/a/ZvaG2 (just a test run of it's blasts, when this nefarious nightmare wasn't even trying, destroyed 10 Star Systems in one go http://i.imgur.com/2gREOpX.jpg
Kingdom Gog’s staff is very powerful, because, as it has the combined power of the Emerald Energy of the Guardians of the Universe, the cosmic energy of the Source, and the MAGICAL might of Shazam and Zeus http://i.imgur.com/qDBgsb3.jpg-- oops, to Gog's startled bafflement, Superman withstands the blast without a mark on him then rescues his various JLA and JSA colleagues;
The Man Of Steel withstood the destruction of The Source Wall (note how Superman states the entire length of the wall has been destroyed), which extends to every corner of the universe and is pan dimensional https://imgur.com/a/qYJsj
There was no protection, no buffer from the impact---Superman took it head on, unlike the other characters who the Source protected from the trauma, as Metron states, and who fears it's "the end of the universe"
---even in "Superman Unchained" issues 3 and 4, Superman withstands the point blank shots of a powerful Black Hole laser which could also affect his physiology: after just one hit he was visibly damaged but he recovered in few moments and was ready to fight.
So yes, according to the above, multiple feats-with more on standby-Superman has fantastic durability levels (more than enough to nullify any false "outliers" clams).
It doesn't matter how sad, had, rad, bad, or mad the above evidence makes anyone get.
Why those who have a problem with these on panel,in canon feats being legitimately displayed keep whining to me, instead of taking their concerns directly to DC Comics is unknown.
The above scenarios cannot be disputed factually; only the typical Comic Vine tactics of willfully ignoring evidence, name calling, claiming "Der, Stardust stomps" with no justification and other "stellar" low brow methods that don't change the truth can be used.
Translation:
The Man Of Steel gets by Stardust, makes it to Silver Surfer, defeats shiny skins in the manner I described earlier, and then-
Still using the "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" method of evidence acceptance, where any feat that shows Superman lacking "counts", while feats that show him at at stellar level-no matter how many on panel, see-with-one-own-eyes ones there are, "doesn't count" for that famous Comic Vine reason of "just because".
Not in the least bit. I gave logical convincing evidence that you prefer to ignore.
This is why you will always be made fun of by other posters, every time you show up on these threads spouting insanity. You just....DON'T bother to consider context.
Or, you see it and ignore it.
Suit yourself.
All the people who are in the glow of the energy-including Superman and Deadman-are "glowing" because the ring is keeping them in time dilation, not "juicing" or "amping" them.
Nope. They were all enveloped in ring energy and brought to be evaluated between a nano second of time before hand by Hal's ring.
Notice, everyone is glowing green because of Oan ring energy....
Gallery
That would include Clark Kent.
Only Deadman, unaffected because he is a ghost, and Superman, because he is fast enough to speed up out of the effect, is able to speak to Hal normally.
While Clark certainly has super speed, it was clear from his first attempt to move through time, and subsequent attempts that Clark is not FTL in reaction speed.
Sorry dude. Just how it is.
Superman's own dialogue confirms it. And this is not a one time thing for Superman to show this level of speed-
Yes, but Superman's own dialogue also confirms he was powered up for the feat....
"I feel a surge of energy inside...residue from the green lantern energy I was exposed to I'll bet"
Sorry, no matter how you try to spin this, you can't ignore the fact that Clark was juiced up on ring energy.
So I'm not sure what the above scan is supposed to prove.
We're talking about reaction speed, not straight line speed.
or when the Kryptonian is proved to be fast enough in combat/reaction time to speed through a total stoppage of time http://imgur.com/a/PuLOt smacking away the artifact that was causing it from his opponent's hand (wherein the villain vociferously voices out loud how impressed he is that Supes pulled this off)
Yeah, I posted those scans already in my previous post.
Clark was moving like he was in molasses, which tells me he is close to light speed, not FTL.
At this point, I'd have to assume you're just being conveniently lacking in understanding.
But we both know better, don't we?
:)
more than once http://i.imgur.com/OaXO6T7.jpg -here, Kal breaks out of a total time freeze even faster and grabs one of the kids attacking him.
He is in a solidified chrono suspension. The scan below clearly shows that. Do you even read the books you post these scans from?
Obviously, this scan
Has NOTHING to do with Clark's speed. Good grief.
There is another incident where a Monitor froze time, and everyone in the room was frozen except Superman who sped up enough to walk through it.
Show me the full scans. And you pointing to other scans in a poor effort to contradict what I've already posted doesn't explain away the times Clark has failed to achieve FTL reaction speed. I mean basically, you've ignored my argument in favor of spamming with scans that you believe prove Clark is FTL while ignoring my argument altogether.
The Waverider incident doesn't negate those feats;
The incident (singular)?
What happened with Superman below, only a year earlier with Wave Rider again?
Clark is a statue in two of the scans, hell Wave Rider even says Clark is a statue....the others make it clear Clark isn't moving through time under his own speed.
How do you explain that?
This makes 3 separate instances with Wave Rider alone where Clark obviously was not FTL enough to move through time.
There are others featuring Wave Rider that show him moving Clark through time. Do you really need me to spam all of them for you to get the point?
How many more contradictions should I post for you before you acknowledge Clark can't move through time under his own speed or is otherwise FTL in reaction speed?
but if one wants to play it that way,
Who's playing? The only one I see playing is you.
That's part of your problem. You think I'm just randomly lowballing Clark. I've provided scans based on logic and your only response is to do what you always do and post what you think are contradictions and your accompanying exhortation that we should just simply "go with the ones you've provided" despite the contradictions I've posted.
It's sad really.
then according to this "logic" the time Surfer defeated a Doombot is negated by the time a Doombot beat Radd down and KO'D him. Or the time Surfer handled Beta Ray Bill "doesn't count" due to the time Bill one-shotted Radd.
The difference between those showings is they are contradicted by something that happened in the character's continuity without an explanation of some sort. The reader is left to evaluate based only on other showings....without any explanations....as to why the Surfer performed the way he did against weaker opponents.
Hell the fact that you are pointing to these as proof of low showings is evidence you already realize they are low showings.
So, I suppose you answered your own question.
With the showings for Clark, I've provided not only scans, but very specific time lines in Clark's continuity that explain WHY my scans are legitimate and yours aren't.
But you keep ignoring my argument and spamming nonsense....wall of text posts that could be summed up in a few words really.
Or if, despite Superman having multiple speed feats well over FTL,
That's the thing, aside from Action Comics 642, you haven't provided anything that shows Clark can react in a nano second. Additionally, aside from the fact that Clark wasn't yet powered up, Clark was clearly juiced on Oan energy.
You've ignored that in favor of spamming some scans and telling a nice story to go along with it.
Problem is, you haven't actually provided an argument that goes along with what you're posting for scans.
one long ago instance of him saying he was below that "overrules" all those feats,
It does when Clark has a whooolllleeee lot of feats that contradict the one from Action 642. Yes in fact, it does overrule that feat.
then we can use that standard on The Silver Surfer; despite multiple feats of Radd being over FTL, because of the following incident
So, yeah man. First, the Surfer said, "I can FLY near the speed of light!"
That's talking about travel speed, not reaction speed.
This is a discussion about reaction speed in case you are confused.
Second, there is a nice article on hyperspace and how the above scan? Was retconned only a few years later in Silver Surfer Annual issue 2.
I suggest you read it before you embarrass yourself any further. Very nice article by @captnmcdeadpool on the subject of hyperspace in relationship to the Surfer.
But again, hyperspace is a reference to travel speed. We're discussing reaction speed.
since Surfer clearly says-out of his own mouth-that, quote, "I can fly near the the speed of light" (not over, or even at the speed of light, but only "near" it)---then using the "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" rules always applied to Superman by some, then this one incident above "overrules" all of Radd's other speed feats, and thus he can only move near the speed of light.
It does when there is a clear explanation. Like I said, read the article, Then come talk to me.
Similarly, there is an explanation for Clark's once off showing in Action 642 right in his continuity.
I've highlighted all these points.
You've ignored my explanation.
What---that kind of ridiculous double standard is not going to be accepted for Radd? I didn't think so.
Therefore---
As it has to continually be reinforced-if one tries to claim that only Superman's defeats "count", then that "reasoning" can be used against Surfer, or any other character for that matter.
Like I said, aside from the fact that you used a scan that points to the Surfer's travel speed, Norrin's discrepancies are explained in the character's own continuity.
Clark's continuity points to the feat from Action 642 as not legitimate.
Again....the scan from Action 642 occurred in 1989. Clark was not powered up until 1994 and the best he could muster was near light speed.
As well, ALL of Superman's showings with Wave Rider clearly indicate Clark could not move through time under his own speed, but he needed Wave Rider's help.
Sorry man. Dems da breaks.
For the umpteenth time-no "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" games are going to be allowed.
You've been saying the same tired old arguments for well over a year.
You stubbornly refuse to accept evidence contained in your own character's continuity and then spam scams, most of them....that don't even support what you're trying to say.
Superman clears.
I assume the rest of your response was directed to another poster since I'm focusing on reaction speed.
Your argument against the Surfer having FTL reaction speed is nonsensical, particularly since the scan you relied on above has to do with the Surfer's travel speed.
Secondly, I provided scans from Action Comics 642 that show Clark was powered up by Oan ring energy. The fact that Clark already has super speed combined with Oan ring energy provided the boost he needed to be FTL or otherwise move through time.
Additionally, I provided logic based on clear evidence from Clark's continuity that shows the feat from Action 642 should NOT have been something Clark was capable of at that time in Clark's continuity. Again, Clark was not powered up until 1994. Action 642 was written in 1989.
Additionally, I've provided scans from Clark's continuity that clearly show he could not travel time.
Again, these aren't just any contradictions. These are contradictions that occurred in very specific times during Clark's continuity.
Sorry you can't accept it, but what I've provided clearly contradicts what you're saying.
So, actually respond to my argument this time instead of just denying and pointing to scans you think (they don't) contradict.
So, rather than ignore my argument and you spamming more out of context scans, why not actually address my argument. Show me, based on scans from the character's continuity and logical reasoning behind it, that actually disproves my point.
I dare you.
Superman does not clear. He gets destroyed by the Surfer.
Claiming "logical" explanations were given for something, and actually doing so are two different things.
And now the the "other posters" jibe to try to back up one's statements, in a futile attempt to make them more relevant (already devolving into the behavior that made them get cut off in the first place). This was tried before, when it was claimed "nobody" took me seriously, when (A) I mentioned how many people, on and off the site who do, including the poster who made the claim when they agreed with a topicon other threads (disgustingly showing that when they are agreed with, a person is fine to them, but when a user disagrees with them, then suddenly the same user is not only "wrong", but some kind of monster or something), or that "nobody" agreed with my statements about Superman's TP and matter manipulation resistance and FTL travel and reaction/combat speed, then (B) I copy and pasted multiple "respected" and/or long time users on the site providing evidence of said resistance in other threads, and mentioned a thread made by another poster "trusted" by this user where a majority-by a whopping 76% to 24%-agreed that Superman does have FTL plus travel and combat speed. And the user-who, when they think popular opinion is on their side is all about that was confronted with this---suddenly then turned on a dime and stated they "didn't care what all those others users said" and, after admitting that the majority of Comic Vine agrees Superman has travel and combat speed over FTL---doesn't care because "they know better".
An absolutely draw dropping, astounding display of crass, base hypocrisy.
This kind of user always tries that tactic to "prove" they're "right" (another user in this very thread tried something similar, implying the number of people agreeing Superman can beat Surfer was growing was "made up" by me, then when I copy and pasted some of these users comments-with many more on stand by-then suddenly these "phantom" people now became people who "didn't know jack about Surfer". Can't concede that they were wrong, and goes on to insult the intelligence of others, implying that anyone who disagrees with them must be defective. This type of user almost always behaves in the same pattern-is supposedly so "confident" in their views, but tries to "disqualify" the opposing character's feats beyond all reason, implies that "everyone" agrees with them, but when that premise is proven wrong suddenly diminishes the mental faculties or character of those who don't agree with them, or don't care what majorities state if they go against what they think, or tries to justify their "Only My Character's Great Feats but NONE Of Their Low Showings Do, But ALL Of My Opposing Character's Low Points And NONE Of Their Stellar Feats "Count" BECAUSE I SAY SO hypocrisy with utter nonsense "reasons" over and over and over.
That's the "stellar" behavior of some users on Comic Vine.
SMH.
The above behavior is why I don't have to keep going back and forth about anything. When a user displays behavior like this, they reveal they are the type that Believes What They Want to Believe no matter what, and will, as I stated previously, devolve into turning a frivolous discussion about comic book characters into a tiresome, snarky, one upmanship contest, name calling first, then throwing a fit when given even a mild push back (like far too many users, apparently thinking that one can insult users who disagree with them, and they're just supposed to take the behavior like a docile puppy) stating that if a character you're arguing against has even one low showing, it is "representative" of them, while all their stellar feats all are "outliers" (once infamously claiming that about a dozen examples of something) or other wise don't count, etc.--while none of the low showings, and all of the great feats "count " for the character you're advocating for ("Heads I Win, Tails You Lose").
Everything they've claimed or implied-that N52 Superman's feats "don't count" when "Rebirth" combined their histories, feats, and experiences, that Superman "can't" resist Black Holes, that he has "no" TP and matter manipulation resistance, that he "isn't" FTL plus fast in travel and combat/reaction speed (even though the user previously admitted that the majority-there's that word again-of this site agrees that Superman does have that level of speed), etc. has been refuted with demonstrable, see-with-one's own-eyes evidence, backed up by other users on this site, or both. Even little things, like claiming Superman catching Barry Allen Flash when he was running faster than time was a "travel" feat is wrong, because they were not running in just a straight line, but all over the town, zigging and zagging https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-5011803
That they didn't run in a straight line is proven when the two retrace their steps to undue the damage that Flash did when he was running around town out of control
Claims demonstrable evidence of Superman speeding through time stops is actually proof he didn't (???) Claiming Superman stating in his own words that he sped through Green Lantern's fraction of a nanosecond time dilation is actually proof he was "amped" by it.
(?????)
In a previous thread, was insisting that when Darkseid changed into Soulfire Darkseid, he had "the same durability he always had", a totally wrong assertion, and in true Bizarro like fashion kept acting like I was the "mistaken" one for factually stating that assertion was woefully incorrect---but kept braying and babbling about how wrong I was.
Ask the average user who has even a minuscule bit of knowledge about the difference between the two versions of Darkseid if Soulfire has "the same durability" as "standard" Darkseid. But due to an irrational hatred of Superman, because Kal managed to temporarily shatter Soulfire, that meant to the user therefore that Soulfire had to only have his regular durability, no matter how many times the user was told-and shown-otherwise.
Totally side stepped the point about the hypocrisy regarding the Silver Surfer-when Surfer is affected by, hurt by, and even felled by less than what his reputation indicates he would be-The Thing, Ikon The Space Knight, Dracula, Vranx, The Vision, The Rhino, Namor, a Doombot,-getting one shotted by Beta Ray Bill, his statement that he can only go near the speed of light, etc.-those are written off as "low showings", but when Superman has occasions of performing lower than his best, for him, of course, those showings are "representative" of Supes, and is his "norm".
I mean, why am I continuing with someone when, by their own standards, since the "majority" of the site disagrees with them concerning Superman's speed, then what they claim about it is moot (they even admitted previously that most of the site says Supes is over FTL in travel and combat speed, and in a thread created by a user they "trust" 76% to 24% agree Superman is over FTL)? When some long term users agree Superman, while not completely immune, has formidable TP resistance? As well as matter manipulation resistance? And on and on?
What kind of person goes around from thread to thread harassing someone who it's clear they're not going to agree on an issue, anyway? I guess I should be "flattered" that they "care" so much---but I don't.
It's creepy.
Someone this pressed by such a frivolous matter-fictional fights between fictional characters; who is willing to cast aspersions on others simply for dissenting viewpoints on said meaningless topic; who doesn't know when to say "we'll have to agree to disagree, then" is, to say the least, more than a little troubling. A normal person, once it became clear that the subject matter was not going to be agreed upon, would have moved on by now (and others in this thread have in fact done so); the fact that this is still being persued makes it crystal clear that a simple discussion is not wanted here---but harassment, trolling, and control.
As I have had respectful debates off and on with others in the last few days-providing an excellent contrast to what these type of discussions should be-I have no desire to be in one who has conducted themselves this way. This topic is not going to be agreed on. And with the last post presented, indications are that things are about to move into the distasteful phase of a style of "debate" that makes 8 year olds shake their heads in disgust.
This topic is simply not going to be agreed on. Period.
It's time to move on.
Any stable user-who does not engage in the low brow tactics I've mentioned-is welcome to challenge my claims, as always. But I'm done with the 1% who can't comport themselves properly.
The Man Of Steel gets by Stardust, makes it to Silver Surfer, defeats shiny skins in the manner I described earlier, and then-
So, were I to make a direct response, but I'm not.....I might say something like....
someuser said:
Claiming "logical" explanations were given for something, andactually doing so are two different things.
Indeed. That is why what I posted would be considered a logical explanation.
And now the
This person said, “the” twice.
the
See?
"other posters" jibe to try to back up one's statements, in a futile attempt to make them more relevant (already devolving into the behavior that made them get cut off in the first place).
Veering off into territory no one here cares about.
The discussion was Superman’s alleged FTL reaction speed.
This was tried before, when it was claimed "nobody" took me seriously,
No one cares past misadventures. Must be stuck in the past or something?
We’d just like to see someone, anyone.... give a straight answer to straight questions when posed.
Instead, we see talk about stuff that no one cares about and avoiding my questions altogether.
Hiding behind wall of text posts in the hopes that someone can maintain some semblance of having given a credible response when in reality they can’t provide a credible argument.
when (A) I mentioned how many people, on and off the site who do,including the poster who made the claim when they agreed with a topicon other threads (disgustingly showing that when they are agreed with, a person is fine to them, but when a user disagrees with them, then suddenly the same user is not only "wrong", but some kind of monster or something),
Someone is avoiding giving a direct response to my last post.
Please give a response to what I said about Clark’s reaction speed.
or that "nobody" agreed with my statements about Superman's TP and matter manipulation resistance and FTL travel
Not what I’m discussing at all.
The subject is…
and reaction/combat speed,
Ho, there we go! Back on track with reaction speed….
then (B) I copy and pasted multiple "respected" and/or long time users on the site providing evidence of said resistance in other threads, and mentioned a thread made by another poster "trusted" by this user where a majority-by a whopping 76% to 24%-agreed that Superman does have FTL plus travel and combat speed.
I don’t subscribe to “the community conscience syndrome” or popularity contests.
Please address my points I made about Clark’s reaction speed or simply admit error.
And the user-who, when they think popular opinion is on their sideis all about that was confronted with this---suddenly then turned on a dime and stated they "didn't care what all those others users said" and, after admitting that the majority of Comic Vine agrees Superman has travel and combat speed over FTL---doesn't care because "they know better".
Much ado about nothing.
Please explain the disparity between the feat you allege from Action 642 as a legitimate FTL reaction speed from Clark and the other scans I posted that show Clark was a statue and had to rely on Wave Rider to move him around the time stream.
Can someone explain, based on Clark’s continuity, why that happened?
An absolutely draw dropping, astounding display of crass, base hypocrisy.
Very dramatic.
And it's so boring.
I just want a straight answer to my questions.
Why the contradictions between Clark’s feats with Wave Rider and the one in Action 642?
This kind of user always tries that tactic to "prove" they're "right" (another user in this very thread tried something similar, implying the number of people agreeing Superman can beat Surfer was growing was "made up" by me, then when I copy and pasted some of these users comments-with many more on stand by-then suddenly these "phantom" people now became people who "didn't know jack about Surfer".
Literally most of what's being said has nothing to do with my post about Clark’s lack of FTL reaction speed.
My last post had to do with Clark’s reaction speed….
Can't concede that they were wrong,
I’ve been wrong before and conceded when it was pointed out to me.
Problem is, I’m right until somonecan prove me wrong. But no one has even addressed my points.
This is very telling.
On the other hand, someone has been wrong ever since they started posting on comic vine.
*shrugs*
and goes on to insult the intelligence of others,
I have not done so in this thread. I’ve been completely above board.
implying that anyone who disagrees with them must be defective. This type of user almost always behaves in the same pattern-is supposedly so "confident" in their views, but tries to "disqualify" the opposing character's feats beyond all reason, implies that "everyone" agrees with them, but when that premise is proven wrong suddenly diminishes the mental faculties or character of those who don't agree with them,
….
Just answer the questions. Someone is literally just trying to avoid coming up with responses to what I’ve posted.
This would be because they know I’m right.
or don't care what majorities state if they go against what they think,
One billion Chinese believe in communism. Last time I checked, that is way more the population of democratic Americans.
Who should we think is right on that one?
There are more posters around here that don’t know what they are talking about than there are that do. Some posters specialize in certain characters. It’s the rare few around here (I’ve only met one) that comment insightfully on just about every character I’ve heard them comment on.
This comment excludes some mods that I have extraordinary respect for and that I consider well versed on any number of comic book related characters and subjects.
So…no I don’t care what the majority of comic vine thinks, especially if what “comic vine” believes doesn’t coincide with continuity.
As a wise man once said, “Prove me wrong if you can”.
And none of this has anything to do with my comments on Superman’s reaction speed.
or tries to justify their "Only My Character's Great Feats but NONE Of Their Low Showings Do, But ALL Of My Opposing Character's Low Points And NONE Of Their Stellar Feats "Count" BECAUSE I SAY SO hypocrisy with utter nonsense "reasons" over and over and over.
This is not even remotely what I said.
I pointed out specifics regarding Clark’s continuity with scans and logical reasoning.
You claim the opposite about my comments.
If my comments are so wrong, then why not address them directly and show me where I’m wrong, hmmm?
That's the "stellar" behavior of some users on Comic Vine.
SMH.
Hmmm. I see “SMH” a lot. Problem is, the only person they should be shaking their head at themselves.
Either address my comments are admit they are simply trying to avoid my comments altogether.
The above behavior is why I don't have to keep going back and forth about anything.
And I’ve displayed none of that behavior. Someone is just making up excuses at this point.
Answer my questions.
I’ve found there is no better way to shut someone up than to blow their arguments all to hell…literally pick their argument apart so there is nothing left to say.
They haven’t done that because they can’t genuinely do it and they know they can’t.
So….wall of texts post….rantings and ravings….red herrings and straw man arguments….
None of which address my points.
When a user displays behavior like this,
I’ve displayed….no behavior whatsoever. This person is trying to avoid my questions.
We are discussing Clark’s alleged FTL reaction speed.
This person is talking about the past and some story about my behavior which I haven’t displayed in this thread.
they reveal they are the type
Not a shrink. Can’t analyze me. No clue who I am.
And none of it is relevant anyway.
Just answer my questions.
that Believes What They Want to Believe no matter what,
No, that would be someone else.
I’ve submitted scan after scan revolving around very specific points at very specific times in Clark’s continuity.
They are the one that is playing the “deny/dismiss game” as you so fondly like to call it.
Answer my posts about Clark’s reaction speed.
and will, as I stated previously, devolve into turning a frivolous discussion about comic book characters into a tiresome, snarky, one upmanship contest, name calling first,
I’ve done no such thing in this thread.
Please answer my questions about Clark’s reaction speed.
then throwing a fit when given even a mildpush back (like far too many users, apparently thinking that one can insult users who disagree with them, and they're just supposed to take the behavior like a docile puppy)
So….descriptive. About absolutely nothing.
Again.....avoiding giving direct responses to the post I made.
This would be because they know I’m right.
Answer my questions about Clark’s reaction speed.
stating that if a character you're arguing against has even one low showing, it is "representative" of them,
Making stuff up.
I didn’t point to a single instance in Clark’s continuity and run with it.
I pointed out, with several other scansand specifics about when Clark was de-powered from his “Byrne era” days and why that is incongruous with the scan from Action 642….again….well before Clark was powered up….in addition to pointing out that Clark was juiced on Oan energy.
They've simply chosen to ignore my points in favor of doing what they’re doing now.
while all their stellar feats all are "outliers" (once infamously claiming that about a dozen examples of something) or other wise don't count, etc.--while none of the low showings, and all of the great feats "count " for the character you're advocating for ("Heads I Win, Tails You Lose").
I can’t help it that they chose a scan from Silver Surfer issue 2 where the Surfer discussed his flying speed and you pointed to it as if it was somehow indicative of Surfer’s reaction speed.
That yoke is on their face friend.
Everything they've claimed or implied-that N52 Superman's feats "don't count" when "Rebirth" combined their histories,
Can’t be addressing me because I never said that….
Stay on point. I addressed the feat from Action 642.
They have failed to refute my point thus far.
feats, and experiences, that Superman "can't" resist Black Holes,
My last post didn’t address this. My focus was on Clark’s reaction speed and Action Comics 642.
that he has "no" TP and matter manipulation resistance, that he "isn't" FTL plus fast in travel
My last post didn’t address alleged telepathic or matter manipulation for Clark.
My focus was on Clark’s reaction speed and Action Comics 642.
and combat/reaction speed
Yet…they are failing to address my comment in Action 642. Specifically avoiding it.
(even though the user previously admitted that themajority-there's that word again-of this site agrees that Superman does have that level of speed), etc. has been refuted with demonstrable, see-with-one's own-eyes evidence, backed up by other users on this site, or both.
So dramatic. And I don’t care what other users have said about Clark’s reaction speed.
I’m asking them to address my last post.
Even little things, like claiming Superman catching Barry Allen Flash when he was running faster than time was a "travel" feat is wrong, because they were not running in just a straight line, but all over the town, zigging and zagging
So…where did it say Barry Allan was running through time or that Clark was running through time in those scans? Much less, where did it even say he was running faster than light?
That they didn't run in a straight line is proven when the two retrace their steps to undue the damage that Flash did when he was running around town out of control
There is nothing to indicate either was character was moving FTL or through time. Not only that, Barry was demonstrably faster than Clark.
Clark reaches for Barry and grabs a handful....
of air.
Barry had time to dress Clark in Kryptonian garb and Clark still couldn’t figure out who it was until he used a little deductive reasoning.
Also, there is Barry's comment here...
"Don't let it go to your head. I let you catch up."
Claims demonstrable evidence of Superman speeding through time stops is actually proof he didn't (???)
Wrong.
Verifiable on panel evidence that Clark looks as if he is moving in molasses during time dilation.
Proof that Clark can’t move through time or is otherwise not FTL because Wave Rider has to move him from one point in time to another.
On panel evidence that Clark, according to Wave Rider, was “a statue” while in the time stream.
A person can increase their ability to understand my comments by a factor of ten if they actually read them.
Claiming Supermanstating in his own words that he sped through Green Lantern's fraction of a nanosecond time dilation is actually proof he was "amped" by it.
(?????)
Yeah. That much is right.
I showed the scans and Clark’s own admission that he was energized by Oan ring energy.
Please don’t play obtuse.
It’s just silly at this point.
Totally side stepped the point about the hypocrisy regarding the Silver Surfer-when Surfer is affected by, hurt by, and even felled by less than what his reputation indicates he would be-The Thing, Ikon The Space Knight, Dracula, Vranx, The Vision, The Rhino, Namor, a Doombot,-
I ignored it because that wasn’t what I addressed in my last post.
Once I get them to actually address my last comment without these long posts that amount to nothing, then I will address those points.
They keep trying to steer the conversation in ANY direction other than…
GIVING A DIRECT RESPONSE TO MY LAST POST.
getting one shotted by Beta Ray Bill, his statement that he can only go near the speed of light, etc.-
I actually addressed this point. I explained clearly, first of all….the scan you submitted doesn’t have anything to do with reaction speed.
It has to do with travel speed. I also explained that Marvel’s old explanation for Surfer entering hyperspace was retconned within the Surfer’s continuity (Silver Surfer Annual 2).
In fact, Marvel.com indicates the Surfer enters hyperspace ….. (not reacting….there’s a difference…), he exceeds light speed first.
So…..yeah.
those are written off as "low showings",
I didn’t address those other points. I only addressed the one about hyperspace.
And I gave clear explanations right out of the character’s continuity. And they aren’t “low” showings. They are incompatible with the character’s continuity.
Big difference.
but when Superman has occasions of performing lower than his best, for him, of course, those showings are "representative" of Supes, and is his "norm".
No. I never said that.
It’s that Superman’s pinnacle of super reaction speed is not as great as you are making it out to be.
I gave clear references, times, dates and explanations and issue numbers.
And the only thing someone seems able to do is post wall of text responses that do little to address my last post.
I mean, why am I continuing with someone when,
Yes, why is that?
So, I post without tagging someone….as requested….and address the comment you made about Superman’s alleged FTL reaction speed….
And here they are.
Without an argument to save their soul.
Again.
by their own standards, since the "majority" of the site disagrees with them concerning Superman's speed,
…I’ve seen several posts on this very thread that wholeheartedly are disagreeing with their comments….so not sure what they’re talking about here….
Again….please give a direct response, an argument of some sort, regarding my last comment regarding Action Comics 642.
then what they claim about it is moot (they evenadmitted previously that most of the site says Supes is over FTL in travel and combat speed, and in a thread created by a user they "trust" 76% to 24% agree Superman is over FTL)?
And this is relevant to my last comment how?
Stay on topic.
This is about Clark’s reaction speed.
Give a direct response concerning my last comment.
When some long term users agree Superman, while notcompletely immune, has formidable TP resistance? As well as matter manipulation resistance? And on and on?
Again, they’re drawing attention away from the relevant comment, namely the last one I made before this one.
Stop the diversionary tactics and answer my question please.
What kind of person goes around from thread to thread harassing someone who it's clear they're not going to agree on an issue, anyway? I guess I should be "flattered" that they "care" so much---but I don't.
It's creepy.
Must be joking right?
They asked me not to tag you….yet when I blew their arguments out of the water like I normally do….they espond?
I can only assume they want me to respond because they’re addressing my comments…if in an indirect way.
What’s creepier? The guy that stops tagging you?
Or the guy that says, “stop tagging me” then proceeds to address my comments?
Someone this pressed by such a frivolous matter-fictional fights betweenfictional characters; who is willing to cast aspersions on others simply for dissenting viewpoints on said meaningless topic; who doesn't know when to say "we'll have to agree to disagree, then" is, to say the least, more than a little troubling.
They’re describing themselves at this point, since they are the ones that evidently lack the self-control to ignore my comments.
They asked me to stop tagging you and I respected that.
Yet, here they are emotionally distraught trying to passively aggressively address my comments….without tagging me.
A normal person, once it became clear that the subject matter was not going to be agreed upon,
I think what they mean is they want me to stop blowing their arguments out of the water.
If they don’t want to be called out on these posts they keep making, then don’t make them unless they’re ready to defend them using scans and logic from the character’s continuity.
would have moved on by now (and others in this thread have in fact done so);
Yet here they are….
Basically, they don't want anyone calling them on their the falsehoods that they're spreading, but they want to be able to comment on someone else's argument, even if they're wrong.
the fact that this is still being persued makes it crystal clear that a simple discussion is not wanted here---but harassment, trolling, and control.
I’ve not trolled in the least bit. In fact, I don’t troll. Not my style.
I’ve presented straightforward arguments and they’re doing what they always do when they get cornered with no way out: avoiding giving a direct answer to direct statements and questions.
The conversation is Clark’s reaction speed.
Strangely, they keep veering off the subject.
As I have had respectful debates off and on with others in the last few days-providing an excellent contrast to what these type of discussions should be-I have no desire to be in one who has conducted themselves this way.
I haven’t conducted myself in any way that requires reprimand.
They’re just worked up because they don’t have a valid argument.
Not my problem. That’s their problem.
This topic is not going to be agreed on.
I think what they mean, is they don’t have a response to the argument I’m making, so “let’s agree to disagree”.
And with the last post presented, indications are that things are about to move into the distasteful phase of a style of "debate" that makes 8 year olds shake their heads in disgust.
It’s unlikely eight year olds would be reading these posts, but okay whatever.
This topic is simply not going to be agreed on. Period.
What they mean is: they don’t have a valid response to my argument and they’ve been painted into a corner.
It's time to move on.
So move on.
Any stable user-who does not engage in the low brow tactics
So, that would be an insult. Something I have not done this entire discussion.
I've mentioned-is welcome to challenge my claims, as always. But I'm done with the 1% who can't comport themselves properly.
I have challenged. Their problem is they can't refute them.
They resort to this.
And I’ve been nothing but above board.
They’ve been evasive and have not done the courtesy of giving direct responses to my last post.
We were discussing Superman’s reaction speed and your allegation that the feat from Action Comics 642 is legit.
It isn’t. Prove me wrong by giving a direct response to my last post.
The Man Of Steel gets by Stardust,
Agreed, as I stated as much earlier.
makes it to Silver Surfer, defeats shiny skins in the manner I described earlier, and then-
Superman clears.
Superman lacks consistent reaction feats to place him in the FTL tier. Near light, yes indeed. Faster than light/moving through time stream type dude in reaction speed for Clark?
Nope.
Silver Surfer wrecks Clark like its his job. Period.
Due to the behavior, without reading whatever is written, anything that is posted the response on loop from now on will be:
What kind of person goes around from thread to thread harassing someone who it's clear they're not going to agree on an issue, anyway? I guess I should be "flattered" that they "care" so much---but I don't.
It's creepy.
Someone this pressed by such a frivolous matter-fictional fights between fictional characters; who is willing to cast aspersions on others simply for dissenting viewpoints on said meaningless topic; who doesn't know when to say "we'll have to agree to disagree, then" is, to say the least, more than a little troubling. A normal person, once it became clear that the subject matter was not going to be agreed upon, would have moved on by now (and others in this thread have in fact done so); the fact that this is still being persued makes it crystal clear that a simple discussion is not wanted here---but harassment, trolling, and control.
As I have had respectful debates off and on with others in the last few days-providing an excellent contrast to what these type of discussions should be-I have no desire to be in one who has conducted themselves this way. This topic is not going to be agreed on. And with the last post presented, indications are that things are about to move into the distasteful phase of a style of "debate" that makes 8 year olds shake their heads in disgust.
This topic is simply not going to be agreed on. Period.
It's time to move on.
Any stable user-who does not engage in the low brow tactics I've mentioned-is welcome to challenge my claims, as always. But I'm done with the 1% who can't comport themselves properly.
The Man Of Steel gets by Stardust, makes it to Silver Surfer, defeats shiny skins in the manner I described earlier, and then-
DarkseidThanos is talking nonsense and is upset because he's getting destroyed by multiple users on another thread.
Also, due to the behavior, without reading whatever is written, anything that is posted the response on loop from now on will be:
What kind of person goes around from thread to thread harassing someone who it's clear they're not going to agree on an issue, anyway? I guess I should be "flattered" that they "care" so much---but I don't.
It's creepy.
Someone this pressed by such a frivolous matter-fictional fights between fictional characters; who is willing to cast aspersions on others simply for dissenting viewpoints on said meaningless topic; who doesn't know when to say "we'll have to agree to disagree, then" is, to say the least, more than a little troubling. A normal person, once it became clear that the subject matter was not going to be agreed upon, would have moved on by now (and others in this thread have in fact done so); the fact that this is still being persued makes it crystal clear that a simple discussion is not wanted here---but harassment, trolling, and control.
As I have had respectful debates off and on with others in the last few days-providing an excellent contrast to what these type of discussions should be-I have no desire to be in one who has conducted themselves this way. This topic is not going to be agreed on. And with the last post presented, indications are that things are about to move into the distasteful phase of a style of "debate" that makes 8 year olds shake their heads in disgust.
This topic is simply not going to be agreed on. Period.
It's time to move on.
Any stable user-who does not engage in the low brow tactics I've mentioned-is welcome to challenge my claims, as always. But I'm done with the 1% who can't comport themselves properly.
The Man Of Steel gets by Stardust, makes it to Silver Surfer, defeats shiny skins in the manner I described earlier, and then-
@theonewhoknows: People just need to go to the superman vs thanos, the other superman vs heralds of galactus, thor godblast vs superman threads to see that they all go locked because of you and if they carry on debating with you here you'll get this thread locked too
Once again, people who think post crisis Despero and superman are galaxy+ level shouldn't be debated against
@darkseidthanos: People need to see that (A) You are talking nonsense, as in the first thread the mod stated everyone was violating the rules, and in the second thread I had nothing to do with the thread being locked, and (B) you bizarrely think you're some kind of authority on this site, when in reality you are not the police of Comic Vine, and you don't get to dictate who does and does not get to debate about whatever topic they want to. I don't know who told you you have such authority, but whoever it was, they lied to you.
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