New 52/DC rebirth
616
Who wins and why
Superman vs Beta ray bill
Superman oneshoot
@doctor223 said:
Superman oneshoot
Holding the weight of a planet doesn't relate to fighting as it's why the world strongest men would lose in MMA against any heavyweight fighter as it's two different skill sets, I will say it could do either way but i do favour Bill since he has greater striking feats.
I honestly don't see how Superman has a speed advantage, particularly based off his showing against Silver Surfer in hyperspace in Beta Ray Bill: Gohunter #2.
This is the only good combat speed showing for Bill that I have seen and it seems rather inconsistent, and the fact that it could be argue that it's travel speed rather than combat speed doesn't really help. For a character with as many appearances as Beta Ray Bill I haven't seen anything as simple as something like this or this. Let alone something such blitzing Wraith through the Moon on matter of seconds or fighting from the Moon back to the Himalayas in the span of two pages. His reactions and perceptions seem phenomenal, but his combat speed is subpar.
Bill also has superior striking and bullrushes(which he uses in combat), like how he destroyed the planetoid/planet against Stardust in Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #3.
Aside from that battle, has Bill ever destroyed a Celestial Object with a bullrush? Not to mention that Bill was bloodlusted during that fight.
His durability is pretty insane, tanking a planetary bullrush and the resulting explosion in Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #4, means Superman will have quite a time putting him down.
I mean, that isn't false, but Bill has been hurted by much less on more than one occassion, I don't wanna scan spam but I'm sure that it doesn't take planet level attacks to hurt him.
Post-Flash point Superman's best striking feat afaik is shaking the Earth and the watch tower. For reference when the Tsar Bomba was set off a good bit in the air it sent 5.0 earthquakes across the world, the watchtower feat makes it more impressive, but how much so? Idrk, I doubt it comes close to continent lvl tbh, much less moon or planetoid level.
I have seen this argument been pushed around alot as of recently, I still don't get why. Dr. Shay stated that Superman was producing more energy while fighting H'el that he did while Bench-Pressing the weight of the Earth during 5 days. It's factually wrong to claim it ''doesn't even come close'' to Continental. So unless where are going to start arguing that lifting the Earth takes a considerable less amount of energy than a 50 Megaton nuke then I would suggest to drop this argument.
Overall I think Bill has the speed to keep up, the durability to tank hits, and the striking to put him down. Superman has a solid edge in lifting strength, but we've seen Bill use Stormbreaker to knock opponents out of a grappling match in Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #3.
We have also see him been overpowered on a contest of strength by character who are well below Superman, such as Thor.
Other then lifting strength, I don't see any major advantages for Superman, especially post-flashpoint.
Lifting plays a huge part in a battle, especially when the difference between both sides is as noticeable as it's here. Just look at Unworthy Thor vs Bill most recent battle during Unworthy Thor #3. Odinson managed to choke Bill with just one hand and the latter look rather helpless to escape, now imagine what someone who's well above Thor can do if he gets Bill on a chokehold?
And while I'm aware Bill wasn't there with the intentions to fight that doesn't mean that he couldn't have defended himself.
Exactly the same thing could be said about Thor. And besides, the "doesn't blitz" argument is a cop-out. Perfomances against same opponents (and each other) show them as peers. So either Bill is as slow as Thor, or Thor is as fast as Bill. Pick your poison.
Um, no. That's not how things work, Thor tagged Silver Surfer, that doesn't make him as fast as Norrin or Norrin as slow as him. Another example, the Thing has kicked a rock at Norrin out of a bullrush, doesn't make Thing as fast as Norrin or Norrin as slow as Ben. Bill is not Superman, he doesn't dodge blows or anything, he simply can use his speed to keep up with faster opponents.
Plus, being on similar levels of power doesn't mean you can't have advantages and disadvantages. For example, imo, Bill is faster and has better striking, but Thor has better storm/lightning manip. Furthermore, unlike Thor, Bill doesn't get humiliated by street levelers who comment on how slow he is.
@lil_remains said:
@kevd4wg: That hyperspace instance has almost no relevance. That’s travel speed.
I honestly haven’t seen anything to suggest Bill is faster than Thor in combat speed. Neither of them ever had any trouble tagging each other, and Bill doesn’t use planet level bullrushes in combat.
Firstly, what do you mean it has almost no relevance. Other then the fact he swatted Norrin out of his FTL bullrush and then proceeded to hit him again before his stopped momentum could pull him out of Bill's reach, Bill also reacted twice to Surfer's solidly FTL(in this instance) bullrush. At the very least it's FTL reaction, but it's also a great combat speed feat as well.
Other then that Bill has feats like doing hours of work along with Quasar and Surfer within a millisecond in cosmic powers unlimited #4, that's way faster then Thor will ever be, same with feats like getting Azeroth in a grapple before Stardust hit them with a likely FTL bullrush or him weaving through lazers coming out of FTL speeds(albeit clipped by one of them), Thor simply can't replicate those.
And Bill does use bullrushes in combat, like against Stardust in combat. I mean tbf it's kinda hard to judge exactly what is in character for Bill in combat since he doesn't have a lot of "in combat" showings, especially against opponents near his level(Where a bullrush would be useful) and with stormbreaker, but he has used speed and his travel speed in combat multiple other times
Gallery
- Uses a bullrush on Galactus(Stormbreaker 1)
- Uses his travel speed in combination with a strike against galactus(Stormbreaker 1)
- Bullrushes through a ship(Godhunter 1)
- -5. Uses a combination of combat speed and travel speed to drop on top of stardust to gain the upper hand(Godhunter 1)
Literally by skimming 2 issues I found 4 examples of him using travel speed to attack, that's pretty consistent. I can think of at least one other as well and I'm sure there's more out there.
This is the only good combat speed showing for Bill that I have seen and it seems rather inconsistent, and the fact that it could be argue that it's travel speed rather than combat speed doesn't really help. For a character with as many appearances as Beta Ray Bill I haven't seen anything as simple as something like this or this. Let alone something such blitzing Wraith through the Moon on matter of seconds or fighting from the Moon back to the Himalayas in the span of two pages. His reactions and perceptions seem phenomenal, but his combat speed is subpar.
He actually does have a showing like that against Stardust which I showed above, but really he doesn't need to blitz in character, that's not what makes a character fast. Silver Surfer doesn't fight like that at all, Spider-man has more showings of fighting like that, but in combat speed, Surfer is unequivocally faster. I'm not really sure why the showing is inconsistent, Bill is consistently much faster then Thor based on his standalone feats, like the one I referenced above in Cosmic Powers Unlimited 4 where he did hours of work alongside Surfer and Quasar within a millisecond
Aside from that battle, has Bill ever destroyed a Celestial Object with a bullrush? Not to mention that Bill was bloodlusted during that fight.
Um what? That's such a specific thing to ask. Bill legitimately has about 1/4, closer to 1/5 or less the appearances that Post-Flashpoint Superman does and in most of those he doesn't do much of anything so I bet if we compare celestial object destroying to appearance ratio, Bill would have more. I mean, if you want to say this is inconsistent, that means you have to show 10 feats for Superman to prove he is consistent as well. Plus this striking is backed up by feats like cracking Galactus's armor in Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #1 or Two-Shotting Pre-Annihilation Silver Surfer with an ambush in Warlock Chronicles #7.
As for the bloodlust, Bill isn't exactly a super Morals based character, he's not the type to hold back so "bloodlust" doesn't actually mean a whole lot. It's not like Bill was too overly "bloodlusted" either as he worked with Stardust in the next issue without problems. He was far more bloodlusted against Omega Ray for example
I mean, that isn't false, but Bill has been hurted by much less on more than one occassion, I don't wanna scan spam but I'm sure that it doesn't take planet level attacks to hurt him.
I'll be happy to see Bill getting hurt by much less. I'm interested as to what you'll mention. I mean, considering that Bill has also gone through a beating from Blood and Thunder Thor
Gallery
And I mean, the next time we see Bill he's roughed up, but he also goes on to fight Tyrant. This is a Thor who was massively amped in strength(and speed before you say Bill got blitzed) to the point he could even beat up Power Gem Classic Drax. Then there's feats like in Godhunter #1, where he basically no-sold a planet blowing up under him
So I'll be very interested to see how this is inconsistent. I can think of a few instances you might bring up, but I'm interested to see overall.
I have seen this argument been pushed around alot as of recently, I still don't get why. Dr. Shay stated that Superman was producing more energy while fighting H'el that he did while Bench-Pressing the weight of the Earth during 5 days. It's factually wrong to claim it ''doesn't even come close'' to Continental. So unless where are going to start arguing that lifting the Earth takes a considerable less amount of energy than a 50 Megaton nuke then I would suggest to drop this argument.
And quite frankly, that's PIS. I mean, bench pressing the weight of the earth for 5 days is an insane amount of force. If Superman was actually hitting with more force then that, he should've popped the planet into dust easily. It's quite obvious that he didn't, I'll stick with what he actually did >> a statement about his force.
Lifting plays a huge part in a battle, especially when the difference between both sides is as noticeable as it's here. Just look at Unworthy Thor vs Bill most recent battle during Unworthy Thor #3. Odinson managed to choke Bill with just one hand and the latter look rather helpless to escape, now imagine what someone who's well above Thor can do if he gets Bill on a chokehold?
I know it's a bit of a cop out, but it's worth noting this issue was written by Jason Aaron, a writer whose inconsistency is only rivaled by Donny Cates. I mean we've seen pre-Stormbreaker Bill match Thor equally in strength before this in Thor #337
Secondly, Thor was basically mad and using all his strength against Bill, while in a very favorable position to do so, while Bill, holding back and in an unfavorable position couldn't get it undone. You found 1 fight of Bill being taken off guard by an ally and overpowered, yet we have another example of how Bill deals with physically superior enemies against Stardust in Stormbreaker #3
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