SUPERMAN TOURNAMENT(MMH V C.COMET)

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Gizmorino

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Martian Manhunter vs Captain comet.

MMH is composite(pre52/new52).

Both get their psionic abilities.

Basic knowledge.

Battle takes place on RANN.

500 mile apart.

In-Character.

Willing to win by almost any means(meaning they can get violent/morals off during battle).

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Gizmorino

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@thetruebarry allen: MMH VS @beatboks1: captain comet.

Both of you can start the battle now.

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@beatboks1: Would you mind going first, I'm not familiar w/your character & I'd rather not go under wiki assumptions in a tournament :)

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beatboks1

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#5  Edited By beatboks1

@thetruebarryallen Alright to the battle.

These two are the perfect two to face off against each other, because of all the "Superman Tourney competitors they have the additional mental powers. Yes MMH has additionally shape Changing and intangibility/invisibility, but as I'll show these will be of little to no use against Adam Blake.

For one thing MMH has never shown this level of TK use

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Using his TK to restructure the atoms of the shattered aquarium.

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It's also as easy to him as one of us clenching a fist. Exciting the air around MMH to be flames for several hundred feet will not be a problem.

Here is where TTBA will say that MMH is now immune to fire and it is only a psionic fire that harms him. Well let's not forget that he is up against a powerful psionic here who can assault him that easy as well. the physical fire will re-enforce the psionic assault making it that much more potent an attack.

Casually stripping back the layers of a beings psyche, TP controlling crowds of people, TP scanning the entire reaches of sub space, and turning a mental assault back on the one launching it like Judo. So even if TTBA somehow remarkably shows MMH as a stronger telepath (which he's not) we have evidence of Comet when his ability was still new turning a more powerful assault against his attacker.

Considering that Comet can even turn the mental constructs of Sinestro against him

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Here he faces star striker a more powerful TPer than him (evolved to 200,000 years not just 100,000 like comet) he takes his mental assault for as long as he has to so that Superman can deal with the threat star Striker caused, and then simply finishes it. Rewiring his brain as he does.

So lets say we ignore TP (which we both have and likely neither one gets an advantage in), and we take this as a strictly physical fight. looking strictly at a physical only battle each have had with another powerful brick tells us pretty quickly that it doesn't favor MMH.

On the one hand while Lobo Fought MMH and the rest of the Justice league he punked MMH in 3 pages while he had help.

Then we see Comet when possessed by an alien energy entity using his body to pummel Lobo who was the one who had the help of L.E.G.I.O.N.

Sorry that the scans are out of order (not sure why they were all called the same thing with only the number at the end changing), but due to the fact that the battle went for about 7 pages under new CV rules i couldn't just post the whole thing.

Now Adam doesn't usually go all out like this but the rules here state

Willing to win by almost any means(meaning they can get violent/morals off during battle).

So under those stipulations he can go to that next level and give it his all.

If we go to a battle of brick abilities Comet has the upper hand having faced more "potent" bricks ( if needed i can find the CC vs Mon-el fight, or the CC vs Superman fight - the second one I can find quicker)

OK here is how Comet deals with some of MMH's other powers.

Invisibility, well I doubt very much that will be a problem to someone who sees the entire spectrum including invisible.

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Intangibility. Since Comet can project his astral form and has fought "ghosts/wraiths" before, also not an issue

It referenced in that last one his speed being "faster than light" well this is true in his physical form for flight too.

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Fast as Flash, clearly the speed advantage is mine.

Now here is a little power that MMH doesn't have and should give him problems, Teleportation.

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In the second scan he actually telelported light years in distance. A pertinent fact when you consider that his TP range is

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So Comet can port himself outside the range of MMH and still TP assault him or project an astral form to fight him in the area.

I mentioned Comets level of TK power. Here is Comet TK shielding a few allies from Ominar Synn. The same Synn who soloed the JSA

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Quite a feat when one considers the same Synn did this to BA

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Comet was also able to cast Synn's TP assault out of his mind. So that won't work for MMH either.

I showed Comet controlling the constructs of Sinestro against even his great will, here he is defending against Kyle Raynor's assault and literally controlling power rings lantern's energy against his will.

His TK is so powerful that when pissed he was able to TK hurl two large spacecrafts (he looks very small by comparison) at each other destroying both, hold a space ship that has lost power aloft, and collapse a highrise on top of Styx

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@beatboks1: Nice, nice. I'll be away from my computer over the weekend but I'll be back on Monday & should be able to get a post up!

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Composite Martian Manhunter // Pre 52 & New 52 Feats // Represented by TheTrueBarryAllen

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Powers & Abilities

MMH has a plethora of abilities which will be seen throughout this debate, I'll try and describe them to the best of my abilities:

  • Superhuman Strength - The strength of MMH is easily comparable to that of Superman; whom has remarked about J'onn's strength on a variety of occasions. He can easily go toe to toe w/Captain Comet in the physical department, and he can even further amplify his strength by increasing his mass.
  • Invulnerability - Super Strength would be useless w/o the ability to tank punches/hits from others within the Superman level. J'onn has traded blows with several powerhouses within the DCU including Despero and Superman.
  • Flight - Like most 'Superman' level characters, J'onn is capable of flight.
  • Super Speed - J'onn has a high degree of Super Speed & has been able to blitz a variety of foes; however, I'll go into that further on when I start making points/counters. All that really needs to be said here is he's plenty fast.
  • Regeneration - J'onn is capable of regenerating/recovering from massive injuries. He's recovered from being sliced into several different pieces, and once recovered from a smear of himself on the wall of a volcano (TAKE THAT FIRE WEAKNESS) so he's quite the healer.
  • Shape Shifting - MMH is an incredibly capable shape shifter. He has total control of his molecular structure, this allows him to adjust his body/limbs to stretch, become more flexible/stiff, grow more limbs, transform his limbs into various forms, etc.
  • Intangibility - Another one of his Martian abilities, J'onn is capable of shifting his density to become intangible, thus allowing him to phase through objects or avoid attacks, a common tactic of his during battle.
  • Invisibility - MMH can become invisible, even Superman was unable to see him with all his fancy visions.
  • Telepathy - One of the Martians most useful and powerful assets, and one of the main reasons why I picked him for this tournament. He has proven to be one of the more powerful telepaths in the DCU, second only to the likes of Despero or Starro the Conqueror. He can do a wide variety of things with his telepathy offensively, and he has incredibly powerful telepathic shields, both of which should help him win this fight.
  • Martian Vision - An interesting ability similar to Superman's own Heat Vision. Essentially he can project psionic energy from his eyes in powerful blasts. I'll describe this more if I use it in this battle.

That about does it for his powers & abilities, it should give you & everyone who reads this a review of what he's capable of.

I'm also going to address his weakness to fire. J'onn no longer has a physical weakness to fire (only mental) as of the New 52, and since this is a composite version of the Martian. So now it's only a mental weakness not a physical one, and even then it's not like J'onn will falter & fall the moment a mental flame enters the equation, his will & determination have shown that time and time again.

Counters // Questions // Concerns

Here's where I'll be looking at your first post and addressing your points contained within it.

These two are the perfect two to face off against each other, because of all the "Superman Tourney competitors they have the additional mental powers. Yes MMH has additionally shape Changing and intangibility/invisibility, but as I'll show these will be of little to no use against Adam Blake.

This battle is indeed a good match-up, I'm rather sure our characters could easily manhandle the other competitors in this tournament due to our versatility; however, I think you're incorrect in assuming that MMH's shape-shifting, intangibility, and invisibility will be little to no use, they'll be plenty useful.

For one thing MMH has never shown this level of TK use

According to his Wiki page here on CV he actually does have a limited degree of telekinesis that he just doesn't use that often, there are also some feats to back this up.

These are from Justice League Task Force Issue 32. J'onn is able to use telekinesis to slow down a ship moving 8x the speed of light thus allowing him to re-board the ship. This is an impressive feat in a multitude of ways; especially in his reaction time being able to keep up with & react to the ship to get a telekinetic grip on it, it's also an impressive showing of raw telekinetic power, being able to slow down such a fast object of such a large size.

So while J'onn may not be rebuilding an aquarium, he's still got an immense level of raw telekinetic power, even if Captain Comet uses his TK more, it isn't a massive advantage, if it could be considered an advantage at all.

Here is where TTBA will say that MMH is now immune to fire and it is only a psionic fire that harms him. Well let's not forget that he is up against a powerful psionic here who can assault him that easy as well. the physical fire will re-enforce the psionic assault making it that much more potent an attack.

Well, you see, MMH is now immune to fire and only a psionic fire will harm him.... all joking aside, while J'onn has the 'Fire Weakness' it's really inconsistent, he's fought through it a multitude of times, he's re-formed himself from a green smear while he was on the inside wall of a volcano, and he's fought inside massive infernos without it hampering his abilities all that much.

Also; Captain Comet might have psionic abilities, but he's going to have an incredibly tough time breaking through MMH's mental defenses.

Casually stripping back the layers of a beings psyche, TP controlling crowds of people, TP scanning the entire reaches of sub space, and turning a mental assault back on the one launching it like Judo. So even if TTBA somehow remarkably shows MMH as a stronger telepath (which he's not) we have evidence of Comet when his ability was still new turning a more powerful assault against his attacker.

Did any of those people have significant mental defenses; I mean the only recognizable character within those scans is Grodd in that last scan, and Grodd can't hope to stand up to MMH in a telepathic battle, he's an inferior telepath.

Considering that Comet can even turn the mental constructs of Sinestro against him

That's cool, but MMH has bypassed the telepathic resistance of plenty of GL's in his time, also I'm just curious, how old is that scan?

So lets say we ignore TP (which we both have and likely neither one gets an advantage in), and we take this as a strictly physical fight. looking strictly at a physical only battle each have had with another powerful brick tells us pretty quickly that it doesn't favor MMH.

I'm not going to ignore the TP argument, from what I've seen you post in regards to Captain Comet's telepathic abilities I see MMH having more feats, better feats, and just being an overall better and more powerful telepath; however, let's look at this Lobo fight.

It looks like a terribly low showing from J'onn, even during the fight he's being told not to hit him too hard so it's as if he's holding back the entire time. There's also the fact that he didn't even use his intangibility/invisibility at any point during that fight, two massive advantages in physical confrontations.

Now Adam doesn't usually go all out like this but the rules here state

Yes, those rules might help you but they also help me; without morals/getting violent MMH will have no problem phasing organs out of CC's body, going for the mind rape, and just using his abilities to their maximum, it won't only benefit you :)

If we go to a battle of brick abilities Comet has the upper hand having faced more "potent" bricks ( if needed i can find the CC vs Mon-el fight, or the CC vs Superman fight - the second one I can find quicker)

MMH has fought plenty of bricks in his own time too, Captain Marvel, Triumph (who Superman needed help to take down), a wide variety of White Martians, etc. The only thing is MMH has abilities that allow him to make things much easier than just a basic physical confrontation, his shapeshifting, intangibility, and invisibility all come to mind.

Invisibility, well I doubt very much that will be a problem to someone who sees the entire spectrum including invisible.

Well, it looks like invisibility is out of the question, no biggie.

Intangibility. Since Comet can project his astral form and has fought "ghosts/wraiths" before, also not an issue

I don't see how projecting his astral form has anything to do with him harming intangible beings.

Fast as Flash, clearly the speed advantage is mine.

Statements <<<< Feats

The Speed advantage isn't clearly yours, I mean, MMH was capable of reacting to & catching the ship moving eight times the speed of light that I showed earlier on, he's also performed a plethora of blitzes against a variety of characters, something I'll showcase after this.

Now here is a little power that MMH doesn't have and should give him problems, Teleportation.

While the teleportation is useful, it'll only help Comet flee from a physical beat-down, not a mental one. There's only so much cat & mouse that MMH would be willing to deal with. There's also the fact that MMH was able to out-speed teleportation from Madam Xandu in Madam Xandu Issue 21:

She even exclaims the following: " What is Mister Jones? I detect no mystical qualities in him, and yet he was here faster than I could fade!"

So it seems the teleportation isn't as much of an advantage as you'd hoped.

In the second scan he actually telelported light years in distance. A pertinent fact when you consider that his TP range is

Impressive; however, it doesn't look like he accomplished anything with trying to use his TP at such a range. Even if it was highly effective it wouldn't be able to bypass the Martian's shields. The reason I say this is because in JLA Issue 55 a group of nine white martians who had absorbed brain matter from psychics to amplify their own abilities to the point where they could telepathically scan & assault beings from a distance of many light years were unable to break through J'onns defenses.

So Comet can port himself outside the range of MMH and still TP assault him or project an astral form to fight him in the area.

As I've just stated, that would be ineffective.

Comet was also able to cast Synn's TP assault out of his mind. So that won't work for MMH either.

Telepathic feats for Synn? I tried to read his page here on CV to see if I could learn anything about him but it had nothing listed for his powers/abilities.

I showed Comet controlling the constructs of Sinestro against even his great will, here he is defending against Kyle Raynor's assault and literally controlling power rings lantern's energy against his will.

Manhunter would be able to do one better, and actually control Rayner's mind. Rayner actually fell prey to a telepathic assault from some generic White Martians in JLA 55 - 56, so while controling his energy is cool, controlling his mind is better IMO.

His TK is so powerful that when pissed he was able to TK hurl two large spacecrafts (he looks very small by comparison) at each other destroying both, hold a space ship that has lost power aloft, and collapse a highrise on top of Styx

Manhunter has similar feats in terms of stopping ships with his mental abilities, so while he's got impressive telekinesis, it's nothing too frightening for me to face in this debate.

The Battle: Why I believe Martian Manhunter Wins

You've shown some pretty cool feats for Captain Comet; however, I don't see him being too much of a threat to the sole survivor of Mars. The reasons being as follows:

  • Captain Comet doesn't have any telepathic feats against telepaths on J'onn's level, and if he does, you didn't show them or I somehow missed them. I'm 99.99% sure it's just that Captain Comet doesn't have telepathic feats on J'onn's level.
  • Captain Comet also doesn't have much resistance in terms of telepathy from what you've shown. The highest level telepath that I saw in those scans of yours was Gorilla Grodd, who is mentally inferior to J'onn.
  • Captain Comet also lacks the versatility in physical combat that J'onn possesses.

The most powerful asset Captain Comet has in his fight against the Martian is his telekinesis, but that's not nearly enough of a factor to give CC the victory in this fight.

For example; you've mentioned that CC can harm Manhunter in his intangible form, but I don't see CC defending himself against MMH phasing himself through CC's body and removing vital organs like he did to two White Martians by phasing through their hearts:

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I see no form of resistance to this attack in CC's arsenal.

I also firmly believe that MMH is the superior telepath in this encounter. His mental defenses which have been tried and tried again have withstood massive punishment, and CC's telepathy just isn't strong enough to breach them, even IF he uses psionic fire.

A willing to kill/morals off MMH is a terrifying foe, and I don't see Comet surviving this fight. MMH's telepathy is too powerful, his phasing gives him an edge in physical combat, as does his shape-shifting, abilities that Captain Comet lacks thus putting him at a huge disadvantage.

I look forward to your next post/response, @beatboks1, I'm expecting it'll be a good one :)

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Batking200

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Go Martian

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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Go Martian

Haha, thanks. It's my first time ever using MMH in a debate; hopefully I do him some justice regardless of the outcome.

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beatboks1

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#14  Edited By beatboks1

@thetruebarryallen:

I think you're incorrect in assuming that MMH's shape-shifting, intangibility, and invisibility will be little to no use, they'll be plenty useful.

I think you may have misinterpreted something I said. I said they were abilities I can address. Comet can see the inveisble spectrum so Jonn' wont be invisible to him ( even if he was telepathy is also there). Since Comet can project an astral form that is still capable of using TK and has held intangible beings with it and fought them it is also something he can address. As for shape shifting I've shown comet control the molecular structures of things with his mind over matter/ TK. He could stop Jonn's shape shifting flat.

According to his Wiki page here on CV he actually does have a limited degree of telekinesis that he just doesn't use that often, there are also some feats to back this up.

These are from Justice League Task Force Issue 32. J'onn is able to use telekinesis to slow down a ship moving 8x the speed of light thus allowing him to re-board the ship. This is an impressive feat in a multitude of ways; especially in his reaction time being able to keep up with & react to the ship to get a telekinetic grip on it, it's also an impressive showing of raw telekinetic power, being able to slow down such a fast object of such a large size.

I also never doubted that Jonn had TK, but by your own words it is "limited". In your scans Jonn didn't use TK to slow the ship at light speed, he used it to anchor himself to the ship to catch it. To slow it he overoad it's "automatic controls". It's even described as being like getting dragged by wild stallions, so hardly an easy task. Now comparing that to using TK to mentally shield three allies from Onimar Synn who can casually cast Black Adam from one world to another, strip Jay Garrick of his speed protection, rip the molecules of Sand apart ( a character who can CONTROL his molecules). It simply isn't in the same league.

Well, you see, MMH is now immune to fire and only a psionic fire will harm him.... all joking aside, while J'onn has the 'Fire Weakness' it's really inconsistent, he's fought through it a multitude of times, he's re-formed himself from a green smear while he was on the inside wall of a volcano, and he's fought inside massive infernos without it hampering his abilities all that much.

Also; Captain Comet might have psionic abilities, but he's going to have an incredibly tough time breaking through MMH's mental defenses.

It's this simply, in and of itself a large fire sometimes wont harm Jonn if he is mentally prepared for it. Being composite doesn't remove the weaknesses and only gives you the strengths it means you get the weaknesses of both and the strengths. Jonn's weakness to fire was retconned to be "Psionic" in nature pre 52 as well. The instances of him simply succumbing to fire are now a case of him being overcome by it psychologically. So the fact that Comet can make a massive area around Jonn fire means that the instant Jonn is in any way mentally weakened he should succumb.

So I've already established that Comet has quite a vast advantage over MMH in TK (whether you'd like to admit it or not, your own scans have further proven it - which I'll get to). In defending against a TK attack of Comet's full force that will push MMH's will and metal abilities to a limit. How can he then shield himself from even a slight TP assault. Remember we've already established (and you've acceded ) that Comet uses his mental powers more. I can supply plenty of proof of this but simply in the issue that the scan of the fish pond is from Comet didn't possess super strength or invulnerability at the start. he in fact had used his vast metal power to prevent his body from evolving

Did any of those people have significant mental defenses; I mean the only recognizable character within those scans is Grodd in that last scan, and Grodd can't hope to stand up to MMH in a telepathic battle, he's an inferior telepath.

This ones a joke, RIGHT??

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I just showed a feat of CC turning the metal power of a TPer who has DOMINATED the most powerful mental version of MMH completely and your calling into question the validity?? and LOL the fact that Grodd was the ONLY notable one.

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Onimar is an "all powerful God" who soloed a team that included Dr Fate, Obsidian, Jakeem Thunder, Alan Scot. All these guys are capable of attacking someone on a "mental front", if he didn't have mental resistance how the hell would that have been possible??. For god sake he sensed them in the vicinity of his planet.

That's cool, but MMH has bypassed the telepathic resistance of plenty of GL's in his time, also I'm just curious, how old is that scan?

Really? which ones because CC has one shotted Hal Jordan, resisted Kyle Rayner, Sinestro and power Ring. Basically ALL the top ones.

It's old and pre Crisis in fact, before you say it, that doesn't work well for you since it places Comet at low power levels since he was one of the few who got seriously upgraded after COIE (MMH ironically was anther) not powered down. Pre Crisis he was actually stated to be physically 1/10 the stats of Superman. it places CC who's stats were MUCH lower against adversaries who in most cases were higher than current by quite a bit.

I'm not going to ignore the TP argument, from what I've seen you post in regards to Captain Comet's telepathic abilities I see MMH having more feats, better feats, and just being an overall better and more powerful telepath; however,

Of Course MMH has More feats, he's appeared in almost 2400 issues to Captain Comet's 230. He's appeared in 10.4 times the number of issues. the thing is while has more feats he really doesn't have more peak feats. So on pure consistency Comet actually operates at his high end a lot more. Also significantly he's never really (post COIE) been depicted struggling to perform any TP feat)

let's look at this Lobo fight. It looks like a terribly low showing from J'onn, even during the fight he's being told not to hit him too hard so it's as if he's holding back the entire time. There's also the fact that he didn't even use his intangibility/invisibility at any point during that fight, two massive advantages in physical confrontations.

PARDON?? I think you need to revisit the scans.

  1. the reason Barda asks Jonn not to hit him too hard is to protect the team. Making Lobo bleed makes more Lobos. So striking him hard enough so that he bleeds means you have several opponents capable of handing Superman his @$$.
  2. how it is a low showing? Lobo is vastly stronger and more Durable than Jonn. Lobo has pulled stellar mass from the sky and can regenerate from anything. He's also completely immune to TP because he had special radios implanted in his ears to play rock and roll full ball to make him so. Jonn's main power is off the table

MMH has fought plenty of bricks in his own time too, Captain Marvel, Triumph (who Superman needed help to take down), a wide variety of White Martians, etc. The only thing is MMH has abilities that allow him to make things much easier than just a basic physical confrontation, his shapeshifting, intangibility, and invisibility all come to mind.

Lobo has beaten captain marvel too, and Superman needs help to take down Lobo so what. As for intangibility, shape shifting and invisibility, they didn't help the Weird who possesses those and a few more like matter control, magic etc.

Statements <<<< Feats

So how's this

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Mars is 56 million kilimoters from earth. Let's be generous and assume that the writer meant exactly half way that is still 18 million KM in moments. it takes 22 minutes for light on mars to reach us. making that 11 minuets for half way. A moment is a very brief but unspecified period of time but I have NEVER heard it refered to as more than a minute. So let's be generous and say that in this case it is a minute. That means Comet travels at the very least 11 times the speed of light (under only telekinesis - which gives a huge indication of just how powerful a TKer he is). We clearly see a planet is pretty damn close in the back ground so I'd say it's pretty safe to assume he got a lot more than half way in moments so that makes it even greater. In any case at 11 times the speed of light he is at least 3 plus light years faster than Jonn who in your own scan can't make 8 times without hitching a ride.

The Speed advantage isn't clearly yours, I mean, MMH was capable of reacting to & catching the ship moving eight times the speed of light that I showed earlier on, he's also performed a plethora of blitzes against a variety of characters, something I'll showcase after this.

Your scan clearly showed he WASN"T capable of that level of speed so had to tether himself to the ship with his TK to catch it and again it stated it was like being dragged by stallions. So martian at best achieved 8 times the speed of light by being dragged compared to Comet doing more than 11 times by propelling himself with TK. We just established in cold hard facts a VERY distinct and substantial difference between the two in both Speed and TK power level, and it favors me. If MMH was even close to Comets TK level he too could achieve that level of speed.

While the teleportation is useful, it'll only help Comet flee from a physical beat-down, not a mental one. There's only so much cat & mouse that MMH would be willing to deal with. There's also the fact that MMH was able to out-speed teleportation from Madam Xandu in Madam Xandu Issue 21:

You know what I didn't see in those scans?? madame Xanadu teleporting light years. Since we've seen that comet achieved that INSTANTLY, and Martian can't achieve a speed of 8x lightspeed then it's a pretty safe bet it's a feat he wont match against Comet.

Impressive; however, it doesn't look like he accomplished anything with trying to use his TP at such a range. Even if it was highly effective it wouldn't be able to bypass the Martian's shields. The reason I say this is because in JLA Issue 55 a group of nine white martians who had absorbed brain matter from psychics to amplify their own abilities to the point where they could telepathically scan & assault beings from a distance of many light years were unable to break through J'onns defenses.

Really, you must have missed the scan where he TP scanned an entire dimension and was able to track the Secret Society of Super Villains into yet another dimension.

On two separate occasions (one in Trinity) he also mind linked the entire GL Corps, Dark Stars and L.E.G.I.O.N to co-ordinate their attack. One of them was across light years)

http://s125.photobucket.com/user/DCHawks_photo/media/DCU_Trinity_2_09.jpg.html

http://s125.photobucket.com/user/DCHawks_photo/media/DCU_Trinity_2_10.jpg.html

http://s125.photobucket.com/user/DCHawks_photo/media/L.jpg.html

http://s125.photobucket.com/user/DCHawks_photo/media/L-1.jpg.html

Distance is not an issue for Comet. I'm trying to find the feat where he also TP mind scanned 7 billion people (which is around the population of earth and matched Jonn's peak TP feat)

As I've just stated, that would be ineffective.

Ahh his Astral projections can still use his mental powers without his body.

In the first scan we see him TK holding the intangible being in place while only an astral projection and his body is else where and the second using his TP. Why on earth would that not be effective?? His astral form which is still capable of all his metal powers is still on the battlefield, his physical form that MMH could harm isn't.

Telepathic feats for Synn? I tried to read his page here on CV to see if I could learn anything about him but it had nothing listed for his powers/abilities.

He's able to control ALL the fundamental forces of nature. He has complete control over electro magnetic forces, gravity, strong and weak nuclear forces. He's verging on a reality warper and he pretty much TP controlled a few planets. He was able to block Dr fate (Hector) from casting spells and attack even his mind (a communal mind with Nabu)

Manhunter would be able to do one better, and actually control Rayner's mind. Rayner actually fell prey to a telepathic assault from some generic White Martians in JLA 55 - 56, so while controling his energy is cool, controlling his mind is better IMO.

How on earth do you think you control a GL's energy if not in some way controlling their mind. Oh and Sinestro >>>>> Kyle in will power.

I'm 99.99% sure it's just that Captain Comet doesn't have telepathic feats on J'onn's level.

Flat out wrong

Captain Comet also doesn't have much resistance in terms of telepathy from what you've shown. The highest level telepath that I saw in those scans of yours was Gorilla Grodd, who is mentally inferior to J'onn.

The light corporation sent teams of telepaths to hunt him (all of whom were Grodd level) and they failed dismally. Also when Comet was a captive of Dagon Ra ( a matter manipulator of high order) he had Telepath probe him daily as part of his interrogation and got nothing. Telepath is the member of Legion that Dox uses to keep tabs on his operatives all over the universe. I'll hunt up the scans. Pretty sure it was issue 18 of the original run.

Captain Comet also lacks the versatility in physical combat that J'onn possesses

No Caption Provided

how do you figure that exactly. He basically as strong if not stronger. definitely faster, has precognition (Martian Lacks), vastly greater enhanced senses on almost all of them (he's even felt the color of things). He has the ability to control matter, electricity, and much more. he can regenerate himself and has even fixed potential brain damage done to him.Combined with the fact that he NEVER fatigues

Not to mention he's a genius with a photographic memory who can learn and digest entire books by flicking the pages in seconds. He has even taken a cave man society and advanced them to the space age in 6 months. and could tell just by the fact that the ships speed was reduced that it had to have a stow away weighing 170lbs

If anyone can work out a way of dealing with MMH's powers Comet can, and he has the means to do so.

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T4V

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@beatboks1: Looks like I hit a nerve somewhere in my last post, lol.

I'll have my response up in a day or two, this battles just getting started.

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@thetruebarryallen: no nerve, I thought that res o ose was pretty calm. Certainly wasnt rushed I had my browser open for over 24 hrs outting in bits here and there when I had time o xmas eve and day. 9.46 am boxing day here- my kids are just opening the "boxes" of their presents now. That is after all what boxing day is for right?;) well thats what we've always sold them so we can get places xmas morning and only allow then to take one present out of the box on xmas day.

@thenewbluebeetle007: what does t4v mean?

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@beatboks1: Alright, so I tried making a post earlier today but my computer decided it was time for an automatic update and I lost it all. Here's hoping that doesn't happen again, haha :)

Counters & Rebuttals

This section is quite possibly going to be very long; and I apologize for those who read these debates & vote, but I need to clarify a lot of things.

I think you may have misinterpreted something I said. I said they were abilities I can address. Comet can see the inveisble spectrum so Jonn' wont be invisible to him ( even if he was telepathy is also there). Since Comet can project an astral form that is still capable of using TK and has held intangible beings with it and fought them it is also something he can address. As for shape shifting I've shown comet control the molecular structures of things with his mind over matter/ TK. He could stop Jonn's shape shifting flat.

Alright - I'm going to bullet point this one:

  • I accept that Comet can see MMH if he were to go invisible due to that aptly name power of being able to see the invisible spectrum.
  • I accept that Comet could potentially hit MMH even if he were to go intangible; however, I still hold firm that MMH could do to Comet what he did to those two White Martians in the closing portion of my first post.
  • I do not accept that Comet could nullify MMH's shape-shifting with his TK. The only molecular manipulation feat you've provided for Captain Comet at this time was when he repaired some glass in an Aquarium, which is an inanimate object with no control over it's own molecules. MMH however has total control over his own molecules, and thus should be able to resist such an assault.

Granted - MMH doesn't need intangibility, invisibility, or shape shifting to win this fight, it'd just make it easier.

I also never doubted that Jonn had TK, but by your own words it is "limited". In your scans Jonn didn't use TK to slow the ship at light speed, he used it to anchor himself to the ship to catch it. To slow it he overoad it's "automatic controls". It's even described as being like getting dragged by wild stallions, so hardly an easy task. Now comparing that to using TK to mentally shield three allies from Onimar Synn who can casually cast Black Adam from one world to another, strip Jay Garrick of his speed protection, rip the molecules of Sand apart ( a character who can CONTROL his molecules). It simply isn't in the same league.

The purpose of my scan was to show that J'onn has TK to SOME degree and that he was able to react to AND tag an object moving 8 times the speed of light, incredibly impressive reaction times.

Onimar Synn is not a telepath, Captain Comet did not mentally shield anyone from telepathic attacks from Onimar Synn because Onimar Synn is not a telepath. I will dive into this later in the debate.

It's this simply, in and of itself a large fire sometimes wont harm Jonn if he is mentally prepared for it. Being composite doesn't remove the weaknesses and only gives you the strengths it means you get the weaknesses of both and the strengths. Jonn's weakness to fire was retconned to be "Psionic" in nature pre 52 as well. The instances of him simply succumbing to fire are now a case of him being overcome by it psychologically. So the fact that Comet can make a massive area around Jonn fire means that the instant Jonn is in any way mentally weakened he should succumb.

It would take a large amount of time for J'onn to be weakened enough by this assault for Captain Comet to surpass MMH's mental abilities; time that Captain Comet doesn't have in this fight.

Also I have some questions:

  • How 'massive' would the area be that Captain Comet is making these flames
  • Has Captain Comet ever used his TK to make that much fire, has he even made fire at all via his TK?
  • Would it be in character for Captain Comet to use such an attack should you fail to provide an instance of Captain Comet using such an assault.

So I've already established that Comet has quite a vast advantage over MMH in TK (whether you'd like to admit it or not, your own scans have further proven it - which I'll get to). In defending against a TK attack of Comet's full force that will push MMH's will and metal abilities to a limit. How can he then shield himself from even a slight TP assault. Remember we've already established (and you've acceded ) that Comet uses his mental powers more. I can supply plenty of proof of this but simply in the issue that the scan of the fish pond is from Comet didn't possess super strength or invulnerability at the start. he in fact had used his vast metal power to prevent his body from evolving

You're putting words in my mouth here, this is what I agree with:

  • Captain Comet has superior telekinesis, a factor that doesn't really impact my course of action in this battle in any way/shape/form.
  • Martian Manhunter uses his mental abilities more; in the majority of Justice League appearances he's the one that keeps a telepathic comm link open with the rest of the League, he's subdued countless foes with telepathy, used his TP to locate targets plenty of times, and obtained information from people via his telepathy. J'onn uses his mental abilities plenty more; in ways that are more useful in this battle.

You're also using telepathy feats and telekinetic feats to be interchangeable; this is wrong:

  • Telepathy: The ability to use ones mental abilities to read and/or assault the mind of another/others & the ability to protect their own minds from said mental assaults.
  • Telekinesis: The ability to use ones mental abilities to create physical-psychic energy thus allowing the user to move objects with their minds, create psychic shields to protect form physical force, and alter their physical stats such as strength, speed, etc.

Having powerful telekinetic feats does not make you adept at protecting your own mind and/or reading the minds of others, the same as having powerful telepathy feats doesn't make you adept at using telekinesis.

Ex: Aquaman has telepathy to a limited degree, but no telekinesis. His telepathy defense feats are not interchangeable with telekinetic defense feats because they're two different methods of assault.

This ones a joke, RIGHT??

No, I stand by my statement 100%.

I just showed a feat of CC turning the metal power of a TPer who has DOMINATED the most powerful mental version of MMH completely and your calling into question the validity?? and LOL the fact that Grodd was the ONLY notable one.

False; Grodd has never mentally dominated Martian Manhunter mentally in any cannon encounter, it's time for more bullet points:

  • The scan you've obtained (from a MMH vs Gorilla Grodd thread, I'm assuming from the user Sunman) is from the New 52 event Futures End. They come from the Justice League: Future End special.
  • Future's End is not cannon; so that feat isn't applicible, but if it was you're still missing some incredibly important context behind that battle.
  • It took Grodd YEARS to slowly invade MMH's mind & then overcome him, and he needed help from the God-like New 52 Captain Atom.

So yeah, Grodd is still far outclassed by Martian Manhunter, need some more examples?

  • JLA Annual 3 - Grodd turned the entire Justice League into Gorilla's with some weird machine of is; everyone but MMH was turned feral, so then MMH used his telepathy to help the rest of the League snap back to normal.
  • MMH Annual 2 - Grodd required a machine to boost his psychic levels above MMH; however, MMH was able to then give Grodd Brain Damage.

Grodd doesn't hold any wins over MMH, he can't hold a candle to him in feats or in telepathic abilities.

Onimar is an "all powerful God" who soloed a team that included Dr Fate, Obsidian, Jakeem Thunder, Alan Scot. All these guys are capable of attacking someone on a "mental front", if he didn't have mental resistance how the hell would that have been possible??. For god sake he sensed them in the vicinity of his planet.

None of this does anything to help your argument of him being a powerful telepath.

  • Just because Fate, obsidian, Jakeem Thunder, and Alan Scott didn't use mental attacks on Onimar doesn't mean he has massive resistance. If his resistance wasn't shown then it's assumed he has poor resistance.

It's also important to note that Onimar ISN'T a telepath. He has an advanced control over Nth metal which gives him control over gravity and electromagnitism, no telepathy.

Really? which ones because CC has one shotted Hal Jordan, resisted Kyle Rayner, Sinestro and power Ring. Basically ALL the top ones.

You want examples; here, have examples:

In JLA Issue 58 MMH mind wiped the Justice League - including Kyle Rayner

No Caption Provided

In JLA: Classified Issue 52 he was able to project his consciousness into John Stewarts mind to possess his body; he then used his telepathy to scan entire dimensions to locate Flash who had become displaced in time.

In JLA issues 55 - 56 a generic White Martian was able to invade Kyle Rayner's mind & mentally control him to use his ring.

In the New 52 MMH has the following feats against GL's

  • Telepathically manipulated Guy Gardners emotions in GLC Issue 4
  • Telepathically linked the minds of 9 Lantern's, including Guy Gardner, and then erased their memories of him in GLC Issue 5
  • Read the minds of Hal Jordan & the other JL members in Justice League Issue 8

I'm pretty sure in Blackest Night Black Lantern MMH was able to mentally assault Hal as well; and being a Black Lantern didn't increase or improve J'onns telepathy at all. So yeah, I think J'onn has plenty of feats against Green Lanterns.

Of Course MMH has More feats, he's appeared in almost 2400 issues to Captain Comet's 230. He's appeared in 10.4 times the number of issues. the thing is while has more feats he really doesn't have more peak feats. So on pure consistency Comet actually operates at his high end a lot more. Also significantly he's never really (post COIE) been depicted struggling to perform any TP feat)

Yep, and he's done more with his Telepathy at higher calibers, sorry Comet.

PARDON?? I think you need to revisit the scans.

Okay; time for more bullet points:

  • It looks like an older issue in the first place; and MMH didn't use his Invisibility or Intangibility to dodge/avoid Lobo's attacks, something he does much much more in modern appearances.
  • The Captain Comet vs Lobo "battle" scans had no winner of the fight, they just punched each other a bit with no victory over the other.

I stand by my statements.

Mars is 56 million kilimoters from earth. Let's be generous and assume that the writer meant exactly half way that is still 18 million KM in moments. it takes 22 minutes for light on mars to reach us. making that 11 minuets for half way. A moment is a very brief but unspecified period of time but I have NEVER heard it refered to as more than a minute. So let's be generous and say that in this case it is a minute. That means Comet travels at the very least 11 times the speed of light (under only telekinesis - which gives a huge indication of just how powerful a TKer he is). We clearly see a planet is pretty damn close in the back ground so I'd say it's pretty safe to assume he got a lot more than half way in moments so that makes it even greater. In any case at 11 times the speed of light he is at least 3 plus light years faster than Jonn who in your own scan can't make 8 times without hitching a ride.

I appreciate your math that you've done here; but you're using heavy speculation to calculate Travel Speed, not combat speed, how fast is Captain Comet's reflexes/combat speed, and yes this is an important distinction. Look at Thor who has some great travel speed but some awful reaction times/combat speed.

So as it stands, we've got a feat showing that MMH was able to react to AND tag an object moving at 8 times the speed of light, very VERY impressive in all honesty; also, while we're comparing speed lets look at another example.

In Hourman 16 we see J'onn and Barry fight under the influence of Kanjar-Ro's scepter; they go blow for blow. Now THAT's what I'd call moving as fast as the Speedster known as Flash.

Your scan clearly showed he WASN"T capable of that level of speed so had to tether himself to the ship with his TK to catch it and again it stated it was like being dragged by stallions. So martian at best achieved 8 times the speed of light by being dragged compared to Comet doing more than 11 times by propelling himself with TK. We just established in cold hard facts a VERY distinct and substantial difference between the two in both Speed and TK power level, and it favors me. If MMH was even close to Comets TK level he too could achieve that level of speed.

No; my scan showed he wasn't capable of flying at 8 times the speed of light, but we was still able to react to objects that did & tag them.

You made speculations about Captain Comets speed based on the loose definition of a "moment" to try and prove that because Captain Comet has some fast Travel Speed that it equates to him having better reaction/speed combat speed.

Also - you're making Comet's TK out to be a much larger threat than it actually is, man.

You know what I didn't see in those scans?? madame Xanadu teleporting light years. Since we've seen that comet achieved that INSTANTLY, and Martian can't achieve a speed of 8x lightspeed then it's a pretty safe bet it's a feat he wont match against Comet.

  • MMH went blow for blow w/Barry Allen in combat
  • MMH has better combat speed/reaction speed.
  • You're trying to use Travel Speed in a fight.

The bullet points speak for themselves.

Really, you must have missed the scan where he TP scanned an entire dimension and was able to track the Secret Society of Super Villains into yet another dimension.

Did he assault them or just track them; because those are two different tings. I mean; MMH was able to track and locate Flash as he was time displaced & moving through different dimensions.

Distance is not an issue for Comet. I'm trying to find the feat where he also TP mind scanned 7 billion people (which is around the population of earth and matched Jonn's peak TP feat)

Distance isn't an issue for MMH either; J'onn's scanned Earth plenty of times, he's invaded the Mind of the Spectre, he's also scanned Earth after everyone was given powers by Doctor Destiny and his reality warping.

Distance doesn't regulate power; J'onn can match Comet's distance and is the stronger telepath.

Ahh his Astral projections can still use his mental powers without his body.

Not an issue; J'onn can just bring Captain Comet with him onto the Astral Plane like he did w/Superman & his Mind in Action Comics 774, or that time he enter the Spectre's mind and pulled it onto the Astral Plane w/the rest of the JLA in JLA Issue 35.

In the first scan we see him TK holding the intangible being in place while only an astral projection and his body is else where and the second using his TP. Why on earth would that not be effective?? His astral form which is still capable of all his metal powers is still on the battlefield, his physical form that MMH could harm isn't.

That ghost was afraid; and you haven't even demonstrated how strong he was (so I can't really judge that 'holding him in place' feat to be that great), also the TP assault isn't that amazing because that random ghost doesn't have any TP resistance to my knowledge.

I've already explained that MMH could bring CC's physical form to the Astral Plane; also, how often does CC decide to fight a foe entirely in his Astral Form?

He's able to control ALL the fundamental forces of nature. He has complete control over electro magnetic forces, gravity, strong and weak nuclear forces. He's verging on a reality warper and he pretty much TP controlled a few planets. He was able to block Dr fate (Hector) from casting spells and attack even his mind (a communal mind with Nabu)

Already explained that Synn isn't a telepath, he used his control over Nth Metal to control the planet Thanagar due to how much Nth Metal is ONE Thanagar.

As for him being a 'Reality Warper' J'onns defeated SEVERAL reality warpers with his telepathy; including Doctor Destiny. I can list more if you'd like.

How on earth do you think you control a GL's energy if not in some way controlling their mind. Oh and Sinestro >>>>> Kyle in will power.

Ex: Doctor Light; doesn't control their mind - controls the electromagnetic spectrum, and where is it ever stated that Sinestro has better Will than Kyle?

Flat out wrong

No, I'm not, and you've done nothing to prove that I'm wrong. You're using TK feats as TP feats and THAT is flat out wrong.

The light corporation sent teams of telepaths to hunt him (all of whom were Grodd level) and they failed dismally. Also when Comet was a captive of Dagon Ra ( a matter manipulator of high order) he had Telepath probe him daily as part of his interrogation and got nothing. Telepath is the member of Legion that Dox uses to keep tabs on his operatives all over the universe. I'll hunt up the scans. Pretty sure it was issue 18 of the original run.

I already explained that MMH is superior to Grodd earlier in this debate; and does Qi'Qi (telepath) have any feats of using his TP for offensive/defensive reasons besides just locating people?

how do you figure that exactly. He basically as strong if not stronger. definitely faster, has precognition (Martian Lacks), vastly greater enhanced senses on almost all of them (he's even felt the color of things). He has the ability to control matter, electricity, and much more. he can regenerate himself and has even fixed potential brain damage done to him.Combined with the fact that he NEVER fatigues

Many of his powers are useless in this battle; like, feeling the color of things isn't going to help him against MMH.

The point I'm making here is that their physical stats are fairly similar if not, equal, and that while CC has better TK, MMH has better TP. There's nothing Comet can do to protect his mind from getting raped instantly.

Not to mention he's a genius with a photographic memory who can learn and digest entire books by flicking the pages in seconds. He has even taken a cave man society and advanced them to the space age in 6 months. and could tell just by the fact that the ships speed was reduced that it had to have a stow away weighing 170lbs

Once again; none of these would help him fight Martian Manhunter haha

Why MMH Wins

I'm still under the firm belief that MMH has this in the bag, and these are the reasons why:

  • You've been using TK feats as TP feats, saying that because he's use powerful TK attacks/defenses that he can protect his mind from a telepathic assault when those two powers are not interchangeable.
  • MMH is the superior telepath, and I've shown that throughout this debate.
  • Based off what we've seen, Comet might have faster travel speed, but I've displayed better reaction time/combat speed feats for J'onn. In combat Reaction & Combat speeds are much better than Travel Speeds.
  • If CC uses his Astral Form, MMH can bring his physical body to the Astral plane like he did w/Spectre & the JLA.
  • Many of your strategies/battle plans for this debate seem really out of character/baseless. One of your plans was to have CC teleport light years away to mentally assault J'onn, another was to use TK to make a large fire by exciting the molecules around MMH. Has he used any of these tactics in an actual battle, because it seems out of character for him to do such a thing, and the rules about 'Morals Off' doesn't bring them out of character.
  • CC has no defense if MMH were to phase through him & remove his vital organs such as his brain and/or heart.

I see absolutely no way for Captain Comet to win under these conditions. He might fare better against a brick-type character in this tournament, but MMH was an unfortunate Round 1 matchup for Captain Comet.

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#21  Edited By beatboks1

@thetruebarryallen:

Onimar Synn is not a telepath, Captain Comet did not mentally shield anyone from telepathic attacks from Onimar Synn because Onimar Synn is not a telepath. I will dive into this later in the debate.

O_o did you just ignore the scans?? I mean I showed

Comet was also able to cast Synn's TP assault out of his mind. So that won't work for MMH either.

That was Synn telepathically assaulting Comet, trying to get into his mind. How can he even attempt that if he's NOT a telepath???

Here is Synn controlling millions

No Caption Provided

I can post the scans where it says he controls them if need be. Next thing you'll be telling me he doesn't have TK either.

No Caption Provided

Here on panel he states that Comet's TK power is dwarfed by his own. And yet Comet could effectively TK shield against him. Could push him or of his mind ( an interesting thing if as you Say Onimar isn't a TPer). So if your basing his not having TP on any wiki list of powers none of them list TK either yet on panel he's used it and stated to have it.

Here again he states his mental power dwarfs Comet's

No Caption Provided

If I'm completely honest, I wouldn't class him as a TPer either, as his powers are soul based. However on two recent tourney's where I used a Soul manipulator like Obsidian a TPer was used to defeat it and the feats taken as purely TP since they resulted in controlling the mind, and the votes went against me. So I fail to see how I can't use the same argument when it clearly shows on panel that Onimar was "in his mind" and pushed out. MMH has never been shown controlling millions of people the way Onimar has.

Alright - I'm going to bullet point this one:

  • I accept that Comet can see MMH if he were to go invisible due to that aptly name power of being able to see the invisible spectrum.
  • I accept that Comet could potentially hit MMH even if he were to go intangible; however, I still hold firm that MMH could do to Comet what he did to those two White Martians in the closing portion of my first post.
  • I do not accept that Comet could nullify MMH's shape-shifting with his TK. The only molecular manipulation feat you've provided for Captain Comet at this time was when he repaired some glass in an Aquarium, which is an inanimate object with no control over it's own molecules. MMH however has total control over his own molecules, and thus should be able to resist such an assault.

Wait so I show you him TK holding an intangible being in place and he has no answer to it and can't prevent that type of attack or stop it?? Let's ignore the fact that his body simply "adapts" to almost every attack that has EVER been amde against it.

No Caption Provided

There is at least another 150 scans form different eras where his body adapts to many varied attacks.

In any case time to put this to bed. You've fallen nicely into my trap and placed all your eggs in MMH's TP (since you've now conceded his other abilities can be countered). It's time to show you exactly what "Composite" Comet gives me. In the Mystery in Space mini series of 2007 Comet was killed in issue 1 and after touching on the energy of another entity was resurrected. His resurrected self got serious upgrade in mental powers. It was this version that gained the ability to teleport also (though he did loose out substantially in physicals - fortunately I have the pre resurrection version of Comet in composite to compensate for that)

Every TP and TK feat I've shown to this point (including the feat of pushing Synn out of his mind and TK shielding from him) were pre this upgrade in his mental powers.

I mentioned earlier that a team of TPers was sent to take him down, what I didn't mention until now was that the team were actually clones of his former body. They were physically vastly superior to him but all had the TP and TK power he had in all the feats I have thus far mentioned. After falling to their initial attack when he is completely unaware of his new and improved power levels (he actually discovered the ability to teleport when he just escaped them on a whim) he can easily take them in numbers when he has become used to his new levels.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

He can easily take 3 or 5 of them down psionically at once. Now consider that these clones have the same psionic resistance that he showed allowed him to push Synn out of his mind, and he can mind rape them by the group. Consider also that the DNA these clones were produced from could also TP control Bizzarro and could communicate with Kyle Raynor from Thanagar while Kyle was near earth, and TP sensing thousands of near dead Thanagarians in the Rann Thanagar war that had such faint life signs even Kyle Raynor's ring didn't pick them up (I can get the scans if required).

Here's yet another little differentiator between the two versions.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

A group of 14 clones of pre resurrection Comet couldn't TP manipulate the Weird in any major way. All they could do with effort was change a single memory to make him see Comet as an enemy. Conversely post resurrection comet could rewire his brain and return him to normal all while holding him in Psychic restraints while in his mind.

So I'm sorry to say that any TP advantage you thought you may have had was lost when the rules made this Composite versions. Against any version of Comet pre 2007 you may have had a case (if a small one) but not post ;D

It would take a large amount of time for J'onn to be weakened enough by this assault for Captain Comet to surpass MMH's mental abilities; time that Captain Comet doesn't have in this fight.

It might have for pre resurrection comet but Post who is a 8 to a dozen times more powerful really wont have a problem at all. His TK even before resurrection was superior and post vastly so. His TP was close to even based on feats if ever so slightly behind, that simply can't even be a consideration post since he could defeat many of himself and do what even more couldn't.

Would it be in character for Captain Comet to use such an attack should you fail to provide an instance of Captain Comet using such an assault.

Well this one really sits well for me because Comet's how history is about

No Caption Provided

I could probably post another 1400+ scans of Comet using his power in a way he never had before, it's sort of his stock in trade. he's genius who thinks up new ways to use his powers all the time. Since he can control fire and electricity and pretty much all matter with his mind with his genius his means of attacking you are far from limited.

You're also using telepathy feats and telekinetic feats to be interchangeable; this is wrong:

No I'm not, the only way you can defend yourself from a TK attack is with TK (since it's done from afar). Since MMH by your own admission has inferior TK that would mean he would have to have a vast amount of his mental resources already in use defending himself from a TK attack. That being the case he can't also defend himself from a superior TP attack (which post Resurrection Comet has). His only other defnse would be intangibility but as I've already shown Comet can TK that.

Having powerful telekinetic feats does not make you adept at protecting your own mind and/or reading the minds of others, the same as having powerful telepathy feats doesn't make you adept at using telekinesis.

I showed Comet pushing a mental attack of a superior opponent to MMH out of his mind. I showed him turning a TP attack from an opponent who has telelpathically defeated MMH back on him. I showed him mind wiping another mutant further advanced than he was and shutting him down. I showed him n overcoming the will of not one but several Lanterns and via that controlling their constructs and energy. And now I have shown Him use TP on The Weird that Jonn was unable to do in The Weird's own mini series. Please show me which of these feats are TK and NOT TP? Each are attacks on a mind or a will.

No, I stand by my statement 100%.

Glad to hear it because I've finally found the feat i was actually looking for when I found that one. The feat of the actual version of Grodd that Comet beat.

No Caption Provided

Classic Grodd absorbs mental energies. It was this version of Grodd that Comet faced and turned his own power against him (TP not TK power) and it was this version of Grodd that did easily best MMH in TP assault. This was due to the fact that Grodd created a device to increase his mind which overloaded and started draining mental energies of others into him.

It looks like an older issue in the first place; and MMH didn't use his Invisibility or Intangibility to dodge/avoid Lobo's attacks, something he does much much more in modern appearances.

Ha ha, I suppose your now going to tell me that MMH can defeat Despero in battle when he has never been able to do so and has proven to be his inferior every single time they faced?? I ask because Lobo did defeat Despero, he was one of the few being he actually found a challenge

No Caption Provided

The Captain Comet vs Lobo "battle" scans had no winner of the fight, they just punched each other a bit with no victory over the other.

Let's see, on the one hand we have MMH with the help of a stupid green Lantern and some JLA team mates vs Lobo, on the other we have Lobo with the help of Phase, Lady Quark, and a few Legion members. the fact that it didn't end in less than a page with Comet loosing puts it way above MMH's performance

In Hourman 16 we see J'onn and Barry fight under the influence of Kanjar-Ro's scepter; they go blow for blow. Now THAT's what I'd call moving as fast as the Speedster known as Flash.

Wait, so characters under the influence of other things and mentally dominated now operate at their peak abilities?? Seriously man, I showed in my second scan in my first post Comet reacting to, and tagging and taking down a "Flash level speedster" in the Crime Syndicate's Johnny Quick. He also reacted to another scan in the same post to Sinestro who has blitzed Wonder Woman and others who have better feats of reaction than Jonn. Not to mention at no point in those three scans do we see Jonn even once Tag Flash. If you think you have a reaction speed advantage you need to post feats superior to those I have already posted to prove it not inferior ones.

No; my scan showed he wasn't capable of flying at 8 times the speed of light, but we was still able to react to objects that did & tag them

O_o ??

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I don't actually see it "saying that" anywhere. If you'd like to highlight were it does please.

  1. MMH was flying toward the ship when this was happening. He does Fly at light speed or above as I recall so relative to him it wasn't moving at 8 times the speed of light at all.
  2. it clearly states that it would have been beyond his range if he hadn't "broken off from Gypsy" so clearly it took everything he had mentally to be able to "catch it"
  3. It's not a bloody reaction feat.

You made speculations about Captain Comets speed based on the loose definition of a "moment" to try and prove that because Captain Comet has some fast Travel Speed that it equates to him having better reaction/speed combat speed.

My "speculations" have been VERY generous to you. I've allowed a "moment" to be as large as a minute (which it often is referred to as). I've also allowed the distance to be almost half of what it was. The scan clearly shows a planet very close in the back ground. If anything this is easily justifiably much greater speed on Comet's part (and according to your won scan speed that would have had me "out of MMH's range). that's a great argument right there.

  • MMH went blow for blow w/Barry Allen in combat
  • MMH has better combat speed/reaction speed.
  • You're trying to use Travel Speed in a fight.

NOTHINg that you've presented has shown any of that I'm afraid

Did he assault them or just track them; because those are two different tings. I mean; MMH was able to track and locate Flash as he was time displaced & moving through different dimensions.

Well as you've now seen he has PSI Attacked several TPers of his former selves magnitude and put them down. He has TP exploded the brains of three with little effort. So that is TP assaulting and defeating five TPers capable of defeating Grodd (who would have absorbed their own mental power before he attacked them), a guy who has in fact defeated MMH despite your claims to the contrary.

Distance isn't an issue for MMH either; J'onn's scanned Earth plenty of times, he's invaded the Mind of the Spectre, he's also scanned Earth after everyone was given powers by Doctor Destiny and his reality warping.

and yet in the scans you used to to sow MMH's TK and his non existent reaction speed (apparantly) he doesn't have anywhere near the same range because he is concerned about loosing touch and not finding Gypsy. Interesting NO??

Also Comet has also TP read the entire planet, and when MMH did so he wasn't that far away (his battle with D'Kay)

Not an issue; J'onn can just bring Captain Comet with him onto the Astral Plane like he did w/Superman & his Mind in Action Comics 774, or that time he enter the Spectre's mind and pulled it onto the Astral Plane w/the rest of the JLA in JLA Issue 35.

We've just seen (and I've cropped and enlarged it to highlight) that Jonn's range wouldn't allow him to do that over great distance (the ship would have been outside his range, it's interesting that you'll see in the scans I showed of Comet using his powers in new ways he actually controlled the controls of his ship from off planet, yet MMH can't )and I've shown you Comet teleporting light years of distance. Also as you'll see in the big scan above against the Weird, in the astral plane Comet is boss, not sure that would be a good idea.

That ghost was afraid; and you haven't even demonstrated how strong he was (so I can't really judge that 'holding him in place' feat to be that great)

He's intangible it doesn't need to be any more. Since with his TK Comet can hold guys who can and have matched/Ko'd Superman (Lobo, The Weird- who BTW also matched and KO'd Jonn , course he's a powerful Psionic too, and Comet altered his mind and he DOES have proven TP resistance that has resisted Jonn)

Already explained that Synn isn't a telepath, he used his control over Nth Metal to control the planet Thanagar due to how much Nth Metal is ONE Thanagar.

Yeah because people who AREN'T Telepaths breach the minds of others, control millions of being ALL the time

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He devours the fear and mental energies in people for nourishment. When he was revived in the Rann Thanagar war there wasn't much Nth metal ON Thanagar. he was fed with a vast supply of Thanagarian's mental energies that his servants secured for him.

As for him being a 'Reality Warper' J'onns defeated SEVERAL reality warpers with his telepathy; including Doctor Destiny. I can list more if you'd like

Dr Destiny wasn't a reality warper. he took them into a dream scape in Midsoummer Nights dream. it was a mental feat.

No, I'm not, and you've done nothing to prove that I'm wrong. You're using TK feats as TP feats and THAT is flat out wrong.

Yeah I have you just didn't understand them. Resisting the mental attack of Synn who you believe isn't a TPer who is in fact superior in TP to Jonn is a HUGE TP feat. Turning the greater TP power of Grodd (who was greater because he would have been amped by Comet's own mental energy JUST like he was when he beat Jonn and as he was when he bested Hector Hammond) is also a good TP showing, and one that would allow him to resist MMH even if he were superior in TP. Resisting the attack of a dozen of his clones long enough to teleport away is also a good TP feat. Successfully doing to the Weird what Jonn and a dozen of his clones couldn't (in fact in the Weird Mini Jonn couldn't even read him)

The point I'm making here is that their physical stats are fairly similar if not, equal, and that while CC has better TK, MMH has better TP. There's nothing Comet can do to protect his mind from getting raped instantly.

Yeah because countless feats of resisting TPers who have better feats than Jonn don't count for shit. At no point has Jonn managed to make zombies and completely control millions of beings, so he isn't a match for Synn in that regard and Comet resisted his mind in his. Ohh that's right he's not a TPer because non TPers get into peoples heads all the time don't they. Fact Jonn couldn't even read the Weird and Comet could manip his mind. A dozen clones of pre resurrection Comet couldn't even do that (well at least not more than alter a single memory)

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That's how many clones of the Original Captain Comet it took to alter one memory in The Weird. the single post Resurrection comet pulled him to the astral plane, put TP restraints on him and fixed the damage. But hey that would be a TK feat right???

Once again; none of these would help him fight Martian Manhunter haha

Being a genius who has come up with weird out there totally new ways to use his powers almost every outing gives him nothing what so ever to sue to defeat Manhunter?? Sure. The reason I can pull so varied an arsenal fro Comet is he literally does something completely new every single outing. Not only that he plays his adversaries strengths against them

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For all you know because of Comet's genius, you might be doing exactly what he wants you to.

You've been using TK feats as TP feats, saying that because he's use powerful TK attacks/defenses that he can protect his mind from a telepathic assault when those two powers are not interchangeable.

No you just haven't understood the feats, a mistake on your part. plus I've held back on his TP feats and still haven't shown his best.

MMH is the superior telepath, and I've shown that throughout this debate.

He really isn't. he might be marginally above (and we are talking very little in it) pre resurrection comet but not composite. To settle this once and for all

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The feat that is always thrown around about how powerful MMH is telepathically is him TPing Spectre. Well here we see Comet (post Resurrection) TPing Lord Synnar the Demiurge who as stated on panel is above Lucifer (they were his children)

Lord Synnar >> Lucifer>>>>>> Spectre. Argument done / thread

Based off what we've seen, Comet might have faster travel speed, but I've displayed better reaction time/combat speed feats for J'onn. In combat Reaction & Combat speeds are much better than Travel Speeds.

You haven't shown a single reaction feat that matches those i've shown. At least we see him take JQ, we didn't even see the Flash in the scans

If CC uses his Astral Form, MMH can bring his physical body to the Astral plane like he did w/Spectre & the JLA.

If CC uses his astral form he will be light years from where it is and your scan's showed that a ship moving less than 7 light year speed (again being generous because I'm sure I've see an Bane scan of MMH going a few times the speed of light) speed more than MMH would have been out of his range pretty quick.

Many of your strategies/battle plans for this debate seem really out of character/baseless. One of your plans was to have CC teleport light years away to mentally assault J'onn, another was to use TK to make a large fire by exciting the molecules around MMH. Has he used any of these tactics in an actual battle, because it seems out of character for him to do such a thing, and the rules about 'Morals Off' doesn't bring them out of character.

Here's the thing, I can supply more scans of Comet going morals off than even exist for MMH or fernus.

In the Mystery in space series when he faced the E.L.C when he lured all the clones of himself to "trap he fell into just like he planned to" he blue up an entire freaking asteroid belt to endure he destroyed them.

When he returned to the station and was facing them they had sealed of a section fo the station and were prepared to kill all in it. He however was also prepared having already prior to starting his plan to lure the clones ported in to their base and set charges near highly explosive things to "maximize the damage" and detonated them killing them all. In LEGION when a random ship fired recklessly at Mari'jin he casually destroyed a few of their ships. Being "In character" and allowed to "get violent/morals off during battle" actually helps me a LOT more than it does you because Comet does that reasonably regularly.

CC has no defense if MMH were to phase through him & remove his vital organs such as his brain and/or heart.

Yeah because having the ability to "adapt" to almost any attack is not a plot device that allows me to deal with any power. Being able to TK hold intangible things (shown) can't counter that. Being able to simply teleport somewhere else is also of no help. Being able to control the molecules of things can in no way bother a phaser can it. and the fact that Comet has faced 2 phasers that I know of without issue is a non event too.

Now if you faced any "version" of Comet with MMH you would have the edge. Classic Comet struggled to TP read a city and was stated to be 1/10 Superman level stats. Pre Resurrection Comet was Superman level and TP a little stronger TK as shown. Neither of these could teleport. Post Resurrection was vastly more powerful in TP/TK and mental powers and gained teleportation but a lot weaker and less durable. The fact that I'm composite gives me the benefits of all these.

I think I'm ready for votes if your are.

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@beatboks1: I'll be ready for votes once I make my closing post - you don't get to start the debate and end it too.

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TTBA's Concluding Post | Lengthy Review

It's time for me to write up my concluding post; it wouldn't really be that fair of a debate if you were to write 3 posts whereas I had only written 2, so this will be my third and final post unless you wish to continue this debate further; however, I'm getting the vibe from your last post that you'd like to stop soon.

I'm going to put the major debate topics (telepathy/telekinesis/physical stats/etc) into their own individual sections to make it easier for the voters; the organization of our debate has fluctuated slightly, words are getting mixed up, and meanings of certain things are getting defined incorrectly.

So, without further adieu, I shall begin.

Telepathy

This has been quite a focal point throughout our debate; and I stand firmly behind the belief that MMH has the superior telepathic skills in both offensive and defensive telepathy, even after you explained your "trap" that I had fallen into.

Let's look at the feat's we've shown each-other in this debate:

  • Post 5 - You've shown Captain Comet sifting through the layers of a 'beings' psyche; this being is a parasite that had been using Captain Comet as a host for three years, the same parasite that took control of him when he fought Lobo in those panels you've shown.
  • Post 5 - You've shown Captain Comet using his telepathy on a group of normal humans; also lacking telepathic resistance.
  • Post 5 - You've shown Captain Comet scanning sub space and finding nothing, Captain Comet even states that he found nothing on-panel.
  • Post 5 - You've shown Captain Comet turning Grodd's mental assault against him in some sort of mental judo attack; however, it should be noted that Captain Comet even stated that Grodd's mental powers contained "such raw force, more than my mutant mind can handle!" and that it was "taking all my [Captain Comet's] mental resources" and that he could barely see.
  • Post 5 - Captain Comet has to concentrate all of his telepathic abilities to turn Sinestro's construct against him.
  • Post 5 - Captain Comet goes against a villain known as Starstriker, who was pretty close to being a Captain Comet duplicate. Comet had more experience with his powers and Star Striker went full offensive w/no defense thus Captain Comet was able to best him in a telepathic battle.
  • Post 5 - Displayed that Captain Comet can use his telepathy up to a distance of 5 Light Years; but he didn't show himself mentally assaulting anyone AT that distance.
  • Post 14 - You've shown that he linked the minds of Hal Jordan and the Darkstars; but Hal willingly wanted to be linked and I see nothing about the Darkstars having telepathic resistance.
  • Post 14 - You've shown that he linked the minds of Hal Jordan and the L.E.I.G.O.N so they could communicate better during battle, and he woke up Phase when she was unconscious.
  • Post 14 - You referenced the feat you posted earlier in Post 5 in which he was scanning sub space, and you tried to tell me that he used his telepathy to track the Secret Society of Super Villains into another dimension; however, if you read the scan he states that he can't find anything with his TP, notices a spacial storm that ends up being a rift in space/time, and his instincts tell him that the group most likely went through it, so he goes through it. He didn't accomplish anything with telepathy in that scan.
  • Post 14 - You mentioned that he had a telepathic feat in which he scanned the minds of 7 Billion people; however, the feat which can be found HERE is him scanning the minds of 7 Million, and there is a large difference between 7 million & 7 billion.
  • Post 14 - You've shown Captain Comet using his TP on a random no-name ghost who hadn't shown any signs of telepathic resistance.
  • Post 21 - You show a scan in which Captain Comet is able to mind probe The Weird; however, it should be known that The Weird had developed a resistance to the Mind Blasts created by Captain Comet, which is stated earlier in that issue (Mystery in Space #8) so Captain Comet had to use a more subtle attack known as the Mind Probe, something his clones didn't attempt & something that was more subtle than what the Weird had developed an immunity to. Context is important, kids.
  • Post 21 - You've stated that he could mind control Bizzaro.
  • Post 21 - Stated he sensed a bunch of near-dead Thangarians.
  • Post 21 - Shown that Captain Comet was able to take down the telepathically inferior clones of his former self.

Whew; pretty long list of some pretty decent feats; however, you've proven yourself to be a victim of posting scans w/o context throughout this debate (Ex: Gorrilla Grodd vs MMH scans) so I took the liberty of researching each and every one of these feats that I found in a very well made respect thread on the KMC forums.

Now lets look at what J'onn can do:

  • Post 19 - Stated that in the MMH Annual 2 he fought an amped Grodd (you actually posted an out of context scan for this fight) and gave him brain damage.
  • Post 19 - Mind wiped the Justice League roster of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash (Wally), Green Lantern (Kyle), and Plastic Man
  • Post 19 - Projected his consciousness into the GL John Stewart, then used his (MMH's) telepathic abilities to track down Flash (Wally) who had been displaced in time. I don't understand why you're dissing MMH's distance feats when he's been able to telepathically find someone who was displaced in time (the 64th Century to be exact).
  • Post 19 - A generic White Martian (who J'onn mentally schools on a regular basis) was able to mind control GL (Kyle) and force him to attack an innocent w/his energy blasts.
  • Post 19 - Manipulated the emotions of Guy Gardner
  • Post 19 - Mind linked Guy Gardner w/8 other Gl's and erased himself from their minds.
  • Post 19 - Read the minds of the Justice League
  • Post 19 - Defeated Doctor Destiny who you've said isn't a reality warper; however, I disagree considering he's able to bring the nightmares of people into the real world.

Now; people might be looking at this list and thinking the following: "Jeeze, Barry. You're talking a lot of smack about MMH's telepathic abilities when you haven't shown nearly as much as Beatboks has in terms of telepathy." so I've decided to showcase some more of J'onns telepathic moments to further solidify the fact that J'onn is the superior offensive (and defensive) telepath:

  • JLA 40 & 41 - MMH broke through the psychic defenses of Maggeddon, who had INCREDIBLY powerful defenses. If you're wondering what Maggeddon could do here is a short listing of his feats: Mind raped Hector Hammond (a very powerful telepath), caused two wars to break out in 5 minutes, forced an ENTIRE PLANET of Old Gods to kill themselves; just so you know these Old Gods are capable of warping reality, and drove everyone on Earth to war by manipulating their minds and filling them w/rage & fear. Oh, and since you've been so adamant about Captain Comet's TP having such great distance, it should be known that Maggeddon performed all of those listed feats (besides the last one about war on earth) while he was light-years from his targets, sounds familiar to me.
  • JLA 51 - MMH induces a telepathic hallucination on Joseph Stinton, a homeless man who had been made nearly omnipotent by 6th dimensional beings thus granting him the ability to warp reality.
  • JLA 64 - MMH telepathically kept the God known as Vishnu asleep so that Vishnu wouldn't wake up and destroy the Universe.

I'll post three more feats for his offensive telepathy - and I'll include the scans for these. Any other scans for feats I've referenced can be found in Saren's respect thread for MMH; where I've been gathering a majority of my scans.

1. New 52 MMH vs Despero - MMH breaks Despero's mind, reversing his synapses, it'll take him days or possibly WEEKS to recover from the mental assault:

2. Pre 52 MMH vs Lex Luthor, Effigy, Grodd, Sivana, Talia al Ghul, Ocean Master, Dr. Light and Vandal Savage.

So these three scans only provide a glimpse of what happened; once again you can find the rest of it on Saren's respect thread, but I'll explain what happened.

  • MMH was hit w/over 300 pyro-tranquilizer darts specifically designed for him by Dr.Sivana
  • MMH's body absorbed 99% of the tranquilizers he was hit with.
  • Libra stabbed MMH through the chest with a weapon given to him by Darkseid
  • MMH then sent Luthor, Effigy, Grodd, Sivana, Talia al Ghul, Ocean Master, Dr. Light, and Vandal Savage into a telepathic induced halicunation of the Justice League dominating them.

First off, I'd like to point out how resistant he was to his own weakness of fire, he was hit with 300+ pyro-tranquilizer darts and stabbed, and was still able to use his abilities.

Secondly, a see a special Gorilla named Grodd in that listing of affected targets; the same one you've claimed can easily best MMH in Telepathic Combat... which brings me to the last Offensive feat I'll display.

3. MMH vs Gorilla Grodd w/Amp

See, you only posted the first scan in the fight in which it looked like Grodd is dominating MMH; however, Grodd had built a machine to increase his psychic power to be HIGHER than MMH's, it isn't normally nor was it that powerful in any of his fights w/Captain Comet.

Now... you neglected to mention/show that MMH then caused Grodd to suffer brain damage by out-smarting him, so even when Grodd was telepathically more powerful MMH still beat him.

Once again, context is important.

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So, what am I getting at here - it's not debating if we just spam feats; well, here's what I'm trying to do explain. The most powerful foe that Captain Comet ever went against was Onimar Synn, who, in your own words doesn't actually use telepathy but some sort of soul based mental abilities:

If I'm completely honest, I wouldn't class him as a TPer either, as his powers are soul based. However on two recent tourney's where I used a Soul manipulator like Obsidian a TPer was used to defeat it and the feats taken as purely TP since they resulted in controlling the mind, and the votes went against me. So I fail to see how I can't use the same argument when it clearly shows on panel that Onimar was "in his mind" and pushed out. MMH has never been shown controlling millions of people the way Onimar has.

Now you've stated near the end there at MMH has NEVER been shown controlling millions of people the way Onimar has; however, Onimar is a unique case considering it's in his powers/abilities to resurrect the dead and these dead will fight for him. He does NOT use telepathy to control the undead army - look here at what happened when Onimar Synn was defeated during the Rann-Thanagar War Storyline.

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For those of you who can't read it (as the text is kinda small) I'll write it out:

> What's happening to Synn's Glee Club?

> They were only animated by his evil power. Now that it's dispersed across the universe they're reverting to the long-dead corpses they really were.

So, no, Onimar hasn't telepathically controlled millions of people, and I've done my research on the character since this debate started.

Also

It might have for pre resurrection comet but Post who is a 8 to a dozen times more powerful really wont have a problem at all. His TK even before resurrection was superior and post vastly so. His TP was close to even based on feats if ever so slightly behind, that simply can't even be a consideration post since he could defeat many of himself and do what even more couldn't.

Where are you getting these numbers, it doesn't state anything of the sort on those panels. It just says he's more powerful psionically than he was before, he doesn't say he's 8 to 12 times more powerful.

This leaves me with quite the clear answer; MMH is the superior telepath. While Captain Comet has that 5 Light Year distance feat MMH was able to find Flash while MMH was in the present and Flash was in the 64th century, displaced through time. If Synn is the most powerful foe that Captain Comet faced in telepathy then it's clear that MMH has more offensive power; especially considering his feats against Maggedon, Doctor Destiny, Joseph Stinton, and the plethora of times he dominated Grodd.

Captain Comet is also lacking defensive feats to show that he could resist MMH's telepathic abilities; since Synn's telepathic prowess has pretty much been debunked I'd say the next most powerful foe he went agianst were the clones of Classic Captain Comet, but Classic Captain Comet struggled against a base Gorilla Grodd - and we've seen the track record between Grodd & MMH, which you've so kindly tried to prove wrong via out of context and/or non-cannon scans, there's also the fact that MMH has helped Aquaman resist the telepathic intrusion of a Star Conqueror (JLA 23) and he was the only member of the Justice League who could protect himself from the telepathic power of the En'tranns when they mentally enslaved the Justice League AND the rest of the planet Rann (JLA 21), so J'onn has plenty of defensive feats.

Thus - I think the answer is pretty clear, MMH has the far superior telepathy in this fight and I'm pretty sure I've displayed that quite nicely.

Telekinesis

I won't argue this, and I've already admitted it - Captain Comet is the superior telekinesis user, you've shown that and I haven't disagreed; however, that won't win you this fight and here's why.

No I'm not, the only way you can defend yourself from a TK attack is with TK (since it's done from afar). Since MMH by your own admission has inferior TK that would mean he would have to have a vast amount of his mental resources already in use defending himself from a TK attack. That being the case he can't also defend himself from a superior TP attack (which post Resurrection Comet has). His only other defnse would be intangibility but as I've already shown Comet can TK that.

This is your argument, you state that the ONLY way to defend against TK is with TK; but have you completely forgotten about MMH's overall durability, because I think you have. What is Captain Comet going to do with his Telekinesis, hold MMH in place and crush him or something, because that won't work.

You're also creating some sort of bogus assumption that MMH is going to have to focus his mental abilities to prevent the TK from killing him and won't be able to TP Captain Comet... what?

Heck.. let's see what the Telekinetic Feats that you've displayed for Captain Comet throughout this debate:

  • Post 5 - Creates a telekinetic bubble around a small group of people and flies them out of the way of Synn's path. You've stated that he was shielding them from Synn but all he did was move them out of the way, the bubble never took any direct hits.
  • Post 5 - Smashed two space ships w/his TK.
  • Post 5 - Made a building fall over w/his TK
  • Post 5 - Help land a ship that was falling out of the sky.
  • Post 14 - Holds a no name Ghost w/TK. Granted the Ghost was afraid of Comet, didn't want to fight, and was looking for help.
  • Post 21 - I think this is TK; he made psychic shackles to hold The Weird

So yeah, he's got some cool TK feats but NONE of these are massive game changers that'd instantly incapacitate MMH.

I see the TK causing only a slight hindrance for MMH here; especially considering MMH is going to be fighting against Comet, mentally assaulting him w/TP, and trying to physically brawl with him.

Strength

You're under the assumption that Captain Comet is physically superior to MMH due to the fact that both of them fought Lobo and that Captain Comet "won" his fight while MMH lost his, which is incredibly silly; especially since MMH was only told to distract Lobo & wasn't going all out, as opposed to the time that Captain Comet was fighting Lobo and he was under mind control from some sort of Alien Parasite that had been inside him for three years or something like that.

The best thing is; both fights didn't end with a victory on either side, both parties just hit each other a bit and that was the end of it.

You've also tried to say this:

Ha ha, I suppose your now going to tell me that MMH can defeat Despero in battle when he has never been able to do so and has proven to be his inferior every single time they faced?? I ask because Lobo did defeat Despero, he was one of the few being he actually found a challenge

This is some hardcore ABC logic; and Despero wasn't even defeated in that fight. He literally launched Lobo away with a swat of his hand, heck here's what the fight looked light:

How is getting smacked away from the battle considered "defeating Despero"?

Heck, if that's the highest Strength Feat that Captain Comet has then I'd suggest that MMH is actually superior when it comes to physical strength, especially since he can absorb mass around him to enhance his strength further; as seen in MMH Issue 2

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I'm sure there's plenty that he could absorb on the Planet Rann, so this is easily a way for him to overpower Captain Comet in physical strength.

Durability

This one's going to be short; Manhunter has better regeneration feats than Comet, even if Comet can take more physical punishment (which I don't know is true) MMH can recover from it quicker.

In MMH Issue 8 he was able to regenerate his entire body from a piece of his arm that he had placed some of his consciousness in:

Granted; this would take some time to do and I don't see him having his entire body destroyed in the fight - the point was that MMH has an impressive regeneration ability that is often overlooked; and it gives him an edge in durability.

He also once recovered while slightly weakened (due to being INSIDE a volcano) from being a smeer on the wall to becoming a fully functioning MMH once more:

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You've also argued that if J'onn used his intangibility to phase vital organs (such as the brain or heart) out of Captain Comet's body that he'd be able to adapt to defend against the attack; however, I found this:

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The first time that Captain Comet was hit by the memory ray it worked, but the second time he had adapted so it didn't work. So while his adaptation is cool, he wouldn't get a second chance to adapt to such an attack AFTER the organs were already taken from his body.

Durability edge, MMH.

Speed

This is one of those arguments you've somehow convinced yourself that you've won; what have you shown for Captain Comet's Speed

  • Mentioned he has teleportation; so that's pretty quick Travel Speed.
  • Flew after Sinestro to which you calculated (with some shoddy math & speculation) to be 11 times the speed of light; however, this is once again Travel Speed.
  • Beat Classic Johnny Quick; some decent Combat Speed.

So his best Speed Feat for combat would be when he took down Johnny Quick; an evil version of the Flash, granted he caught Quick off guard w/his telekinesis, but it's still fair reaction feats & is decent overall.

What can MMH do for speed, well since you seem to HATE the reaction feat I posted earlier of him following & reacting to the ship moving 8x the speed of light I'll post some other feats:

In JLA 57 he used his speed to blitz through several large towers scattered around the globe in various continents, and he was fighting White Martians along the way.

Now... one might be asking; how fast are these White Martians, they seem pretty generic! Well, ask no more as I have some speed feats:

1.) A White Martian was able to blitz Superman even though he saw her coming from 200 miles away in JLA 2

2.) These are scans from two different points. The first scan shows White Martians blitzing Kyle Rayner & Superman, the second scan shows them blitzing Kyle Rayner, Wonder Woman, and Flash (who had been slightly injured before this, but the other two are still fast).

So in short; these Martians are pretty fast, and MMH has similar abilities & has trashed plenty of White Martians in his time. There's also the fact that he tagged & 1 shotted Wally West Flash when he was Fernus, and I know he isn't Fernus for this fight but it didn't enhance his abilities in any way/shape/form, it just made him more ruthless & not afraid of fire.

No Caption Provided

So yeah, he's pretty fast.

I'd give the travel speed edge to Captain Comet, and the combat speed edge to MMH, and one last thing... you said this:

You haven't shown a single reaction feat that matches those i've shown. At least we see him take JQ, we didn't even see the Flash in the scans

I think to completely missed the red & green blurs that were Flash & MMH fighting, I'll post it again:

No Caption Provided

They're fighting at such high speeds they've become a blur... I don't see what you're missing, but I provided more Speed/Reaction feats for you just to drive the point home.

The Final Conclusion

Martian Manhunter is easily the better combatant, I'll give you a hand for representing such a lesser known hero like Captain Comet, but he just can't win a fight against the Martian.

  • Comet has faster travel speed, but he's lacking on combat speed/combat reaction feats in all honesty. MMH has more of them at the same or higher calibers, so MMH has the speed advantage.
  • MMH has better durability, his ability to regenerate makes him incredibly hard to put down in a physical confrontation, and he can absorb mass from the Planet Rann to increase his durability. Comet MIGHT have a better base durability, but he lacks the regeneration/healing to keep on going.
  • Strength feats were lacking for Comet, your main argument was that because he "beat" Lobo and MMH didn't that he is stronger, but MMH didn't lose the fight and Captain Comet didn't really win his, they were just two slug fests that had inconclusive endings. Not strong proof.
  • The only real edge Captain Comet has is telekinesis, but after looking at his TK feats in more depth he hasn't done anything too crazy with them that would make me feel that MMH would lose this fight, and your argument about TK causing MMH to lose mental focus is really weak.
  • MMH has better offensive and defensive telepathic feats; you really focused on that feat with Ominar Synn but then you straight up admitted that he isn't a telepath in the traditional sense, and then you were incorrect about Synn using telepathy to control those "millions" of undead, that had no relation to his TP. Your Grodd argument was also rather weak, and you used scans from a non-cannon story, and then only posted the first half of the other fight to make it look like MMH had lost when in all reality he hadn't.

Your whole strategy is to have CC BFR himself via teleportation to another planet 5 light years from the battle location and then best MMH from there, but that's so out of character in a combat scenario that it hurts. You've claimed that he goes for the absurdly unexpected, but you're claiming he's going to use tactics he's NEVER displayed before. There's a difference between being out of character and turning your morals off, Comet might fight harder, but he isn't going to pull out some rediculous and looney strategy just because you've said he would - while WE may be debating for these characters it's important to look at how they've used their abilities in the past, and Comet's usage of his abilities doesn't add up to your strategy.

Plus, he hasn't show any offensive telepathic feats at such a distance that the tactic is pointless anyways, and there's the fact that 9 White Martians combined their own mental strength to try and do the SAME thing to J'onn from a similar distance and it didn't work, they couldn't break his mental defenses.

Look, this was a good debate, but MMH is the superior character here, and that's why I believe he'd win this battle.

Thank you for such a great debate, @beatboks1, I had to give it my all. I'm ready for votes now.

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TheNewBlueBeetle007

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Is this open for votes? If so...

First off, excellent debate from both sides. In addition, I admire the professionalism and politeness this was done with, it was truly a pleasure to read. I was impressed by beatboks's knowledge of Captain Comet, a much lesser known character than Martian Manhunter, who one can simply google feats for (I know TTBA didn't do that). J'onn is not a difficult character to debate with at all, he has an abundance of feats and is in more issues than Comet. Thus, the debating prowess battle I would give to beatboks for this particular debate.

It's undeniable that beatboks had some shaky calculations/speculations, and used out of context scans. TTBA's last post really swayed me. Comet is cool, but Martian Manhunter was just the superior character. I just didn't see how Comet would win. There's no way he's going to TP Martian, as TTBA showed. I wouldn't go so far to say that TK doesn't matter, but I think despite Comet's significant edge in that regard, J'onn's healing factor makes up for it.

So I'm voting for @thetruebarryallen. Once again good job to both, it was an awesome debate.

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@thenewbluebeetle007: I'm not 100% sure, I think Beatboks said he was ready, and I said that I was ready in my last post, but I'll let him confirm haha.

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beatboks1

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@thenewbluebeetle007: thanks for voti g, for the record I dont have to google for Captain Co et feats because most of those you'd find on line are in fact posted by me. All the scans for CC I posted are from my own comics either from secret society of Super Villains, LEGION/REBELS , Rann Thanagar war, or Mystery in space. I inly found my copies of the Rann Thanagar Holy war last night to post the scan of Lord Synnar Demiurge in my last post.

Having heaps of comics of obscure characters is what I'm known for

I'm also curious to know in what way my calculations are in any way speculative? In the scan in question we clearly see mars as large as earth looks in most pictures from the moon. Mars is know to be a smaller planet and I allwed for the distance to ONLY be half way traveled not all the way. The speed of 11 times the speed of light is perfectly justifiable given the scan, I could have argued for double that with real reason.

Also serves me right for posting a scan I hadnt read. I was trying to find the early post coie scan that I later posted whe I found it where Grodd legitimately beat MMH because at that time he did absorb alpha waves.

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@gizmorino: If you could change the title of the thread to including Voting that'd be great; I think Beatboks and I have agreed to head into that stage.

Tagging For Votes

Anyone is welcome; but I'll tag some users who displayed interest and who I just think may want to read this.

Once again - anyone is allowed to vote; I'm just throwing down names of people who I know give some pretty good opinions when they ask to be tagged; or who asked to be tagged in the first place.

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Iragexcudder

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I had no recollection of Comets prowess walking in here but goddamn @Beatboks1 ! You've taught me well on this gentleman. He's quite a badass I might say. Though, I do believe from what I've seen that Jonn may be too much for Comet, given you tried that silly Grodd feat that made me hurt inside; Barry reminded that Futures End isn't cannon.. But still, I do have to give my vote to @TheTrueBarryAllen here based off Jonns versatility and overall telepathic superiority. Comet has significant TP feats but resistance wise, I don't see him coming out of an assault quaranted by Jonn.

Awesome debate, I really wish I could've been in this shindig. Phenomenal stuff!

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@iragexcudder: Thanks for voting; and yeah, Beatboks actually got me super interested in Captain Comet in this debate to the point where I want to see him used more on the battle forums.

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Iragexcudder

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@thetruebarryallen: I'm already compiling possible matches. Has Comet appeared in the New 52?

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@thetruebarryallen: I'm already compiling possible matches. Has Comet appeared in the New 52?

According to the CV wiki; he was alluded to in Action Comics 11 and then confirmed in Action Comics 18, but I don't see anything besides that.

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johnfrank120

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Oh wow, this was a great debate, I've read through it a couple of times and it is virtually too close too call. In the end, I'm barely giving it to TTBA, he had slightly better points and countered just as well. Both did an amazing job, congratulation to both!

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beatboks1

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@iragexcudder: thank you, my job is done. CC is a fave of mine since his original stories in the silver age. Hes also one of the very few who were actually seriously upgraded after COIE and in some ways (mental power wise) even more so after his Mystery in Space resurrection (as shown in the scans where he states he got a greater supercharge than he thought etc).

Pre crisis he was much weaker physically and had much lower TP/TK feats than post, but had this abikity to "evolve new abilities". I've used him a lot in amalgam tourneys with great effect, actually the first time I've used him straight up tourney despite having over 80 of his 200+ appearances.

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Iragexcudder

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@beatboks1: I'll have to start reading up on him, you've given me the urge! Lol but you really REALLY a surprised me with this guy. I hope to see him in future debates because of you, well done

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I vote for Beatboks, no real counters were made against CC's raw power, which is immense.

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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Jacthripper

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@thetruebarryallen: Gets my vote, he was less reliant on calculations (though I do love a good calculation) and had more ways to win practically.

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An excellent debate from both participants delivering solid and strongly argued cases. Beatboks made a fierce proposal for Captain Comet demonstrating a comprehensive knowledge of his limits and showings of Captain Comet, deftly combining both versions of Comet in his posts. I do feel his counters and rebuttals lacked a lot of force though given his choice citations and lacking context for several scans.

As for TTBA, for a character he claimed to not know well, he argued MMH very convincingly from my POV. Not only did he outline MMH's superiority in this battle but he also contextualised several of Beatboks' showings which proved to be a major turning point in this debate IMO. It's one thing to present your character's evidence but to research your opponent's case thoroughly makes it even better.

Both sides had their strengths which isn't a surprise given that two top debaters are participating but I do think @thetruebarryallen held more of an edge. So my vote goes to him.

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@jacthripper said:

@thetruebarryallen: Gets my vote, he was less reliant on calculations (though I do love a good calculation) and had more ways to win practically.

Thanks for voting!

@lvenger said:

An excellent debate from both participants delivering solid and strongly argued cases. Beatboks made a fierce proposal for Captain Comet demonstrating a comprehensive knowledge of his limits and showings of Captain Comet, deftly combining both versions of Comet in his posts. I do feel his counters and rebuttals lacked a lot of force though given his choice citations and lacking context for several scans.

As for TTBA, for a character he claimed to not know well, he argued MMH very convincingly from my POV. Not only did he outline MMH's superiority in this battle but he also contextualised several of Beatboks' showings which proved to be a major turning point in this debate IMO. It's one thing to present your character's evidence but to research your opponent's case thoroughly makes it even better.

Both sides had their strengths which isn't a surprise given that two top debaters are participating but I do think @thetruebarryallen held more of an edge. So my vote goes to him.

Thanks for voting, and good breakdown, in response to the underlined part Saren's respect thread gave me tons of issue references which I was then able to go and read the issues for myself, giving me a better understanding of the character.

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johnfrank120

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#41  Edited By johnfrank120
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TheTrueBarryAllen

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cosmicallyaware1

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@thetruebarryallen: @beatboks1: alright gentlemen. I shall cast my vote here. After reading through THREE times, I'm giving this one to TTBA, in a very close match. I will also state that this is the very first time I have every not voted in Beatbok's favor. I feel that both sides presented their case expertly, and it was apparent that both debaters knew their respective characters well. I simply feel that TTBA presented his case a bit better and had the edge on counterpoints. As always TTBA's layout of his posting was superbly aesthetic and I feel that is one of the key elements to a debate having that higher level of standard, and one of the final tipping points in this battle of the upper echelon. Very well done gentlemen, would expect no less from the likes of you!

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@cosmicallyaware1: Thanks for the feedback, CA1, always nice to hear your view of things considering you've just such a fine attitude about debating!

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#45  Edited By sync1

I've actually found this very interesting. Amazing job to both of you. As for the winner, I think i'd have to vote for @thetruebarryallen . A lot of what @beatboks1 said had major flaws in them, and i felt TTBA did a good job exploiting those flaws. I think the thing Adam lacks is feats that suggests he could resist J'onn's mental attacks. That, and in his mini series he got his ass beat by the Weird, whom is basically a inferior version of Martian Manhunter. His reaction time was honestly god awful against the Weird. That being said, I feel like MM can end this quickly, as Adam doesn't really resort to going for mental attacks in the beginning. He ALWAYS tries to physically fight them first, which imo, will end in his heart being ripped out via Morals off or a simple mindrape (because like i said, he doesn't have many feats that suggest he could resist it).

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Sovereign91001

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An excellent debate from two excellent debaters and closer than my initial thought led me to believe. Both debaters did an excellent job demonstrating knowledge and had strong arguments overall. However at the end of the day my vote (by a small margin) goes to @thetruebarryallen who has definitely stepped his game up and refined his technique to an art form. Great job all around.

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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An excellent debate from two excellent debaters and closer than my initial thought led me to believe. Both debaters did an excellent job demonstrating knowledge and had strong arguments overall. However at the end of the day my vote (by a small margin) goes to @thetruebarryallen who has definitely stepped his game up and refined his technique to an art form. Great job all around.

Thanks for stopping by and reading this; and in response to the bold part I'm glad I've made noticeable improvement :)

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beatboks1

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#48  Edited By beatboks1

@thenewbluebeetle007: @iragexcudder: @jacthripper: @lvenger: @cosmicallyaware1: @sync1: @sovereign91001: @sebast_allen:

Thanks for voting all.

Few things I'll answer/respond to.

I do feel his counters and rebuttals lacked a lot of force though given his choice citations and lacking context for several scans

It's very hard to "force" something you don't buy into yourself. In several recent tourney's lately I've lost due to people accepting TP being used as defense against soul based attacks. One in particular where I had Obsidian who's power is to manipulate souls and control people was argued that Nate Grey's TP would stop that because it was mind control. While I do believe there is a grey line on the cross over i don't see Tp being a defense for Soul powers. Onimar Synn is a soul based character as he strips soul of their hate and fear for power, Comet pushing him out is due to will but it was against a soul based attack just like Obsidian does. I didn't buy it then but since It's now cost me 3 tourney battles in the last few months, thought I'd try the flip side of the argument. Clearly without the belief giving a good sell isn't likely ;)

His reaction time was honestly god awful against the Weird.

Very true, but that was the reactions of only one version of captain Comet, and the version who had almost NON existent physical stats compared to any other (save the first half of his first post COIE story in DC comics present 91, during which his mental power was stolen by Overmind and his body evolved superman level physicals that it never had before which he kept after his mental power was returned). When he was resurrected his powers changed drastically. The rules of the tourney were all DC characters were composite. this would mean I get the benefit of the physical stats of the pre resurrection comet and the metal powers of the post.

No Caption Provided

All his physical strength, speed, and durability post resurrection were a pittance of what he had before. hell he almost broke his hand punching one of the clones from his former body and any one of them were manhandling him like he was nothing. this ^^ is actually the best strength feat I've seen him do post resurrection. In one issue of Mystery in Space he teleports away from a bomb meant to kill him from the E.L.C which left his cloths in tatters and still had him bleeding a little, pre resurrection it wouldn't have even tickled his older body (which would have adapted as well).

@thetruebarryallen:

Looks like you win man, good debate. i had fun.

FTR there are quite a few ways that CC could defend if MMH were to phase through him & attempt to remove his vital organs such as his brain and/or heart.

  1. TK stop MMH's heart or other organs
  2. TK remove the air from around and in MMH
  3. teleport away
  4. adapt to it as he did to every death ray, poison, or thing ever used to attack him (pre Mystery in Space)
  5. TK just hold the phased parts in place and force them to come back into phase- unless you forget when Flash pulled that trick with speed force on MMH it KO'd him. He did a similar thing once and slowed everything in a city to allow him more time to search it.
  6. use his "mind over matter" to alter martian's chemical balance (also something he's done).

I didn't have time to find all my early issues with the ridiculous number of new feats he could pull out of the hat for this one- but I'm looking for them now so when I next use him (which wont be long) I am going to steam roll ;)

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@beatboks1: Indeed it was a great debate; and I think the best thing to come out of this was that you taught me about a new character, and several other users have shown interest in him as well due to how you represented him.

All in all; I think we're both winners in this scenario, and it was fun getting to debate against you :)

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