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#151 Posted by OneTwoThree (30 posts) - - Show Bio

Saitama dies first and horribly, team 2 r*pes Clark.

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#152 Posted by bouncyhippo (516 posts) - - Show Bio

People just hate saitama because he's the only character truly limitless. Pretty sure Thor calling his strongest lightning with the force of all the asgardians, amped with odinforce, dual wielding two hammers would not injure saitama realistically.

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#153 Edited by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

So has hulk.

True but the difference is Hulk has managed to tag Daredevil when they fought. And this wasn't modern Thor either, Classic Thor had some decent speed feats during this time yet was still depicted struggling to hit Daredevil.

Quicksilver was gloating about being able to out race lightning and Thor tagged him right after with area of effect attacks.

That was an AOE attack which disrupted Quicksilver's footing though, Thor didn't tag him mid blitz as evidenced by Quicksilver casually evading his lightning when he did use his speed.

I would have to assume quicksilver wasn't using his speed to the fullest when quicksilver was tagged with a thunderclap as quicksilver is clearly faster than sound. Again daredevil has dodged hulk in the past. Yea hulks tagged him but the encounter in which he did, Matt did actually dance around him a bit IIRC.

Also above you brought up that hulk doesn't use his speed against Thor because plot reasons but than your bringing up feats of hulk tagging speedsters as proof he is faster than Thor...

By that same token, Quicksilver didn't appear to be using his speed to the fullest against Thor and was gloating at him before Thor used an AOE ground pound to stun him. Hulk has also tagged faster street levellers than Daredevil like Spider-Man and Wolverine much more easily than Thor has done. Which is made even more embarrassing given the infamous panel in Thor vs Wolverine where Thor states Logan is faster than he is.

My main point is that when confronted with speedsters, Hulk tends to do better than Thor It doesn't make him a speedster, far from it, but by comparison Hulk's speed and reflexes seem faster than Thor's. Obviously that's pushed to the side when they fight since the two are both brawlers with a heated rivalry between them so they're more likely to try and tank each other's blows.

Blur speed isn't that impressive considering the tiers we're talking about. I'd have to review the cowboy showing again. But did those cowboys even show fast running speed? Because if not than I don't see why anyone would expect them to avoid the hulk if all they showed was fast shooting. Regardless there both slow compared to Saitaima so I don't even think it matters if hulk is faster than Thor because both are going to rely on durability and power to tag Saitaima.

Again just to clarify I am not saying either Thor or Hulk can't tag Saitaima at all. I just don't see why Thor would have much more issues than hulk.

I agree it's certainly not impressive compared to Saitama or Superman's speed but it is more impressive than what Thor has done. To contextualise the cowboy showing, they were firing revolvors, guns which typically hold 6 rounds before needing to be reloaded, like gatling guns. They were shooting so fast that Wild West sharpshooters such as Two Gun Kid said they couldn't hit them because they were moving too fast to be seen.

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Yet Hulk blitzed all 3 with a single hit each before they could react. For comparison, Thor once moved nearly faster than the mortal eye could follow.

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Which is decent speed but it's speed street levellers can replicate as I'm sure you're aware. Back on point, the reason why I believe Hulk has more chance of tagging Saitama than Thor is because Hulk's burst speeds appear more impressive than Thor's consistent speed.

I don't see why the hammers speed would change in combat other than Thor just not throwing it as hard as he can. Mjolnir isn't a sentient being. It doesn't have a form of perceiving the world or a thought process, it just does what Thor wants unless we are assuming Thor has to mentally control the direction it goes in which is something that has never really been clear cut as we have showings where Thor remembers nothing about himself like during Fractions Thor where Mjolnir found him. And we have seen the hammer maneuver at those speeds during infinity when Thor killed a builder so its actually shown it can do more than straight line speed.

I think the issue is Thor doesn't throw the hammer as hard as he can so I am not saying he will throw it once and Saitaima will be tagged. But I think Mjolnir has a higher top speed than either hulk or Thor's own physical speed.

I say that because I have yet to see the hammer move at tracking speed against either fast moving or regular opponents when Thor has thrown it. The hammer has done that for Jane but Jane's control over the hammer is different than Thor's for some reason so that argument doesn't apply. As for whether Mjolnir has sentient control or if Thor controls the hammer mentally, it really varies depending on the writer. We've seen Thor toss Mjolnir at a group of African terrorists and the hammer just zig zagged of seemingly its own accord to hit people. But those guys were regular humans and unable to avoid the hammer. So whilst the hammer can maneveur, we have yet to see it tag anyone who was actually moving at superspeed.

Agreed that Mjolnir's top speed is above Hulk and Thor's, I just question whether that speed can be applied for combat.

I'm not even arguing for Saitaima. I just don't see why Thor would have more issues tagging Saitaima than hulk would. There speed gap is negligible in comparison to the gap between Saitaima but Thor just has more options. Hulk can probably tag Saitaima through durability but so can Thor. I don't see what advantage hulk really has when tagging speedsters.

It's definitely smaller than the gap between Saitama and Thor or Superman and Thor but despite these options, Thor doesn't have the best track record against speedsters. There's a reason why threads like Buckshot's The Speed of Thor exists. Regardless, it's more likely that Hulk's durability and healing will allow him to outlast Saitama's speed edge, plus like Gilneas has said, Saitama often willingly takes his opponents' attacks out of boredom as he has yet to face anyone who can hurt him. Hulk and Thor certainly can do that.

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#154 Edited by Gilneas (612 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashugan: He wasn't really certain about it, on top of that Murata isn't the one running the show, ONE is.

Also that throwaway sentence is about as reliable as when Hulk said he will destroy the universe if people piss him off much lol. It's a joke statement.

Statements by characters and writer/artists are not as reliable as actual feats, for instance the current writer of Hulk has said that Hulk can beat a team of high tiers by himself which means Hulk can beat a team of Thor/Superman level characters, should i take that seriously just from his statement or should i actually wait for him to give Hulk such feats? It's obviously the later.

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#155 Edited by XLR87T3 (9867 posts) - - Show Bio

@supergoku17 said:
@xlr87t3 said:
@supergoku17 said:
@xlr87t3 said:
@dioxinyo said:

@xlr87t3: After attaining his power, Saitama has never been hurt, never been scratched - or even phased. Unfortunately this doesn't mean a whole lot, the maximum damage output that he's been hit by is incomparable to what these guys can deliver. We need a much much stronger foe to exist in his universe before we even have a clue as to how powerful he is.

Based on current feats, I'll say team 2 takes this

Having said that, I still think Saitama's actual power levels are beyond incomprehensible and that we just haven't had a chance to see it yet.

Well if OPman universe had the "god threat" revealed, we'd have some closure. But in the mean time, Saitama still has planet busting DC confirmed, and relativistic speed (reaction and movement), so he still speedblitzes Team 2. And Superman can solo, since New 52 Superman is stronger than anything in Marvel outside abstracts, so he can break Thor's arms and snap his neck with his enormous strength.

When has Saitama done anything planetary?

Rest of your point with superman is debatable

Murata and Saitama himself says he can easily destroy the planet of he stops holding back.

And no, it isn't debatable, Superman is stronger than both Thor and Hulk. What's debatable is maybe striking power, but that won't matter in this fight

Statements by characters unless backed up by a offical guide are pointless

Yes it is debatable and I wouldnt mind caving so superman being stronger is your opinion

Lifting power doesnt matter in fights striking power does

"Official guides" aren't accepted on Comic Vine, LMAO. Otherwise Boros would be a starbuster. A statement is worth more than guides on this website

Wrong. Show me anyone on Marvel Earth with feats of this strength

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Lifting power does matter, otherwise humans (who have superior striking power) would beat the crap out of gorillas (who only have strength but zero striking feats). Fact is, New 52 Superman can rip his opponents' arms off, and the strength by necessity gives him durability as well

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#156 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

Saitama isn't a factor here. Thor fries him with lightning or Hulk one shots him with a thunderclap

Thor and Hulk proceed to gangbang Clark

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#158 Posted by Torro6 (61 posts) - - Show Bio

Saitama has no business in this fight

It boils down to Thor and hulk Vs Superman

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#159 Edited by Toratorn (7203 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3: Hyperion's feat of stopping the Rogue Planet is arguably as impressive or even more impressive. So is Indestructible Hulk's "weight of star on his back" feat. Thing toppling a living black hole should also be somewhere in this power range, consistency issues notwithstanding (tho it was mostly striking, but oh well).

I do agree with your "lifting strength matters" point wholeheartedly tho.

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#160 Posted by XLR87T3 (9867 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn said:

@xlr87t3: Hyperion's feat of stopping the Rogue Planet is arguably as impressive or even more impressive. So is Indestructible Hulk's "weight of star on his back" feat. Thing toppling a living black should also be somewhere in this power range, consistency issues notwithstanding (tho it was mostly striking, but oh well).

I do agree with your "lifting strength matters" point wholeheartedly tho.

Can you please show me the scans or feats of what you have mentioned? Except the Hulk Star feat, which isn't Hulk "withstanding" the weight of a star, since he was restrained by it which was the goal (and not to crush him into mush). It was keeping him in place, not baring down on him.

And thank you, strength does matter. What if someone who can lift a city grabs a regular human who can destroy a car with chi/ki? The regular human would get torn apart

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#161 Posted by jashro44 (52473 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

True but the difference is Hulk has managed to tag Daredevil when they fought. And this wasn't modern Thor either, Classic Thor had some decent speed feats during this time yet was still depicted struggling to hit Daredevil.

Well that comic was written by Stan Lee. Who to be fair actually had Thor duck hulks punch so fast that he couldn't see Thor.

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Thor than later on claims he has a clear advantage in speed. So Stan Lee would probably depict daredevil vs hulk differently than frank millar did.

That was an AOE attack which disrupted Quicksilver's footing though, Thor didn't tag him mid blitz as evidenced by Quicksilver casually evading his lightning when he did use his speed.

Thor was the one who disrupted his footing. And the feat you referenced was hulk tagging quicksilver with a thunder clap. I don't see a difference between the showings. Neither is quantifiable.

By that same token, Quicksilver didn't appear to be using his speed to the fullest against Thor and was gloating at him before Thor used an AOE ground pound to stun him.

I didn't bring up the quicksilver showing. As I said neither of them is measurable.

Hulk has also tagged faster street levellers than Daredevil like Spider-Man and Wolverine much more easily than Thor has done.

Dos it matter? You can't exactly compare someone like Saitaima to street levelers. This really doesn't seem like a big gap if the only difference is hulk tags street levelers with more ease than Thor I really don't think that is a big speed gap. Street levelers are on the low end of the spectrum when it comes to speed.

Which is made even more embarrassing given the infamous panel in Thor vs Wolverine where Thor states Logan is faster than he is.

Well to be fair Thor has only fought wolverine like once (twice if we count the reigning). So Hulk has more showings to draw on. And how hulk and wolverines speed measure against each other isn't the same under every writer.

My main point is that when confronted with speedsters, Hulk tends to do better than Thor It doesn't make him a speedster, far from it, but by comparison Hulk's speed and reflexes seem faster than Thor's. Obviously that's pushed to the side when they fight since the two are both brawlers with a heated rivalry between them so they're more likely to try and tank each other's blows.

If hulk isn't a speedster why does it matter? Really the only street leveler you see blitzing other street levelers are people like spider-man and others of his tier. Do you think hulk is as fast as spider-man? If so in what ways? I also think its weird that you say hulks speed advantage is pushed to the side when he fights Thor but your using hulks "track record" against speedsters to prove he is faster than Thor...The same argument your applying to hulk and Thor's fights can be applied to hulk tagging speedsters.

I mean hulk vs Thor is one of the most iconic rivalries in comics. I think it makes more sense the difference in there speed is negligible consistently than it does to say hulk is faster because of his "track record" against other speedsters. I have my doubts if I were to talk to the writers who had hulk ta those speedsters, that many of them would actually say they believe hulk can blitz Thor.

I agree it's certainly not impressive compared to Saitama or Superman's speed but it is more impressive than what Thor has done. To contextualise the cowboy showing, they were firing revolvors, guns which typically hold 6 rounds before needing to be reloaded, like gatling guns. They were shooting so fast that Wild West sharpshooters such as Two Gun Kid said they couldn't hit them because they were moving too fast to be seen.

I'll check the issue when I get home but if its not as impressive as Saitaima's speed does it really prove hulk would do better?

Yet Hulk blitzed all 3 with a single hit each before they could react. For comparison, Thor once moved nearly faster than the mortal eye could follow.

Which is decent speed but it's speed street levellers can replicate as I'm sure you're aware. Back on point, the reason why I believe Hulk has more chance of tagging Saitama than Thor is because Hulk's burst speeds appear more impressive than Thor's consistent speed.

The narration makes it sound like they were shooting there guns to quickly to see. It doesn't look like Billy and Co. could fire back so it doesn't look like they were physically running faster than the eye. So the difference between the two feats should be negligible I would say.

I say that because I have yet to see the hammer move at tracking speed against either fast moving or regular opponents when Thor has thrown it. The hammer has done that for Jane but Jane's control over the hammer is different than Thor's for some reason so that argument doesn't apply.

Thor has used Mjolnir to track in the past.

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I also recall Thor using it in JMS run to take out soldiers.

And we've seen several instances of Mjolnir moving on its own like during Fractions run.

As for whether Mjolnir has sentient control or if Thor controls the hammer mentally, it really varies depending on the writer. We've seen Thor toss Mjolnir at a group of African terrorists and the hammer just zig zagged of seemingly its own accord to hit people. But those guys were regular humans and unable to avoid the hammer. So whilst the hammer can maneveur, we have yet to see it tag anyone who was actually moving at superspeed.

Why wouldn't it be able to tag faster people? I doubt Saitaima can move faster than Mjolnir can fly.

Agreed that Mjolnir's top speed is above Hulk and Thor's, I just question whether that speed can be applied for combat.

Why? Even going by feats we've seen Mjolnir circle around Heimdall at enough speeds to create a whirl wind.

It's definitely smaller than the gap between Saitama and Thor or Superman and Thor but despite these options, Thor doesn't have the best track record against speedsters. There's a reason why threads like Buckshot's The Speed of Thor exists.

The reason buckshots speed of Thor thread exists is because thor fans in the past have argued he is a speedster. Thor isn't that fast but at the same time he isn't slow in general. He is slow compared to people like superman and quicksilver.

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#162 Edited by Toratorn (7203 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3 said:
@toratorn said:

@xlr87t3: Hyperion's feat of stopping the Rogue Planet is arguably as impressive or even more impressive. So is Indestructible Hulk's "weight of star on his back" feat. Thing toppling a living black should also be somewhere in this power range, consistency issues notwithstanding (tho it was mostly striking, but oh well).

I do agree with your "lifting strength matters" point wholeheartedly tho.

Can you please show me the scans or feats of what you have mentioned? Except the Hulk Star feat, which isn't Hulk "withstanding" the weight of a star, since he was restrained by it which was the goal (and not to crush him into mush). It was keeping him in place, not baring down on him.

And thank you, strength does matter. What if someone who can lift a city grabs a regular human who can destroy a car with chi/ki? The regular human would get torn apart

Hyperion stops Rogue Planet, a planet bigger than Earth travelling at 500 000 miles per hour:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Thing topples Ebon Seeker, a living black hole the size of a building (for the referense, black hole with Earth's mass would only have radius of 9 mm):

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#163 Posted by jashugan (6368 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilneas:

Saitama is quite reliable. He's someone who can punch a "surface wiping" attack. It's not surprising at all that he can destroy the earth.

Murata rewrites everything one wrote and even adds more to it with ONE's permission. His word is usable.

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#164 Posted by SuperGoku17 (7220 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3: Ok ill bite how does clarks lifting strenght help him here?

And by the way MM was helping him and they were pushing it not lifting it.

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#165 Posted by XLR87T3 (9867 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn said:
@xlr87t3 said:
@toratorn said:

@xlr87t3: Hyperion's feat of stopping the Rogue Planet is arguably as impressive or even more impressive. So is Indestructible Hulk's "weight of star on his back" feat. Thing toppling a living black should also be somewhere in this power range, consistency issues notwithstanding (tho it was mostly striking, but oh well).

I do agree with your "lifting strength matters" point wholeheartedly tho.

Can you please show me the scans or feats of what you have mentioned? Except the Hulk Star feat, which isn't Hulk "withstanding" the weight of a star, since he was restrained by it which was the goal (and not to crush him into mush). It was keeping him in place, not baring down on him.

And thank you, strength does matter. What if someone who can lift a city grabs a regular human who can destroy a car with chi/ki? The regular human would get torn apart

Hyperion stops Rogue Planet, a planet bigger than Earth travelling at 500 000 miles per hour:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Thing topples Ebon Seeker, a living black hole the size of a building (for the referense, black hole with Earth's mass would only have radius of 9 mm):

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

The feat with Rogue Planet is a total energy of 1.4918e+35 joules, the amount of energy to destroy Uranus. Not bad, but it isn't comparable to Superman's feat with Brainiac's mothership, which is 1.8731e+35 - 8.2047e+37 joules (44.7681644359 yottatons - 19.6097036329 ninatons). Basically like getting hit with Jupiter itself.

Ebon Seeker was "like" a black hole, but that doesn't mean he's actually one. Otherwise, the solar system would be destroyed

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#166 Edited by XLR87T3 (9867 posts) - - Show Bio

@supergoku17 said:

@xlr87t3: Ok ill bite how does clarks lifting strenght help him here?

And by the way MM was helping him and they were pushing it not lifting it.

There's a lot of things you can do with lifting strength (pretend you're New 52 Clark). For example, instead of trading blows, you can just do this

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Any sort of grapple or throw will be in your favor, and with your strength you can fling your opponent into the moon or another planet. Another thing, neck snaps. The second New 52 Superman gets his hands on Pre52 is the second he wins.

Also, pushing the ship was still a strength feat using the muscles of most of his body. If it isn't a "striking strength" feat, then it goes under the "lifting strength" feat category. As for Martian Manhunter, he has...variable strength levels

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#167 Edited by Toratorn (7203 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3: no idea where you got the mass of Brainiac's ship from (I'm also pretty sure that, like any spacecraft, it's supposed to be mostly hollow, which should greatly reduce how impressive the feat is). Plus it was performed by both Supes and MMH, which should decrease Superman's imput by two as well. That, and the lowest end you gave is only slightly more impressive that Hyperion's feat.

As for Ebon Seeker, he was stated in comic to have taken on "darker properties of a black hole" and it was said that he took a huge chunk of mass of a black hole he was born in. If you want to discredit the feat by mentioning the lack of gravitational effects, then I can do the same to your feat and claim that the ship didn't weight nearly as much as Jupiter or any other planet, because if it did, its sudden appearance near the Earth would cause catastrophic effects and attract the Earth to itself, resulting into collision and Earth's destruction. So either you ignore both feats or accept both feats. Your choice.

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#168 Posted by Streak619 (7620 posts) - - Show Bio

So basically Clark vs team 2? Yeah mismatch.

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#169 Edited by geeman2 (2006 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok I have no idea why people are saying Saitama gets oneshot by either Hulk or Thor here. Superman still solos this but Saitama has never been shown to ever take any form of damage even after being kicked to the moon. We have no idea how durable Saitama is as he has never been shown to be damaged and as a result he wouldn't get oneshot here. Lots of hate for Saitama on this board. Though to be honest Saitama shouldn't be used for VS battles simple due to the nature of the character. Theoretically he just one punches Hulk and Thor because that is the nature of the character.

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#170 Posted by SonofMarx (61 posts) - - Show Bio

Saitama get one shot

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#171 Posted by Kal-El Summers (359 posts) - - Show Bio

@geeman2 said:

Ok I have no idea why people are saying Saitama gets oneshot by either Hulk or Thor here. Superman still solos this but Saitama has never been shown to ever take any form of damage even after being kicked to the moon. We have no idea how durable Saitama is as he has never been shown to be damaged and as a result he wouldn't get oneshot here. Lots of hate for Saitama on this board. Though to be honest Saitama shouldn't be used for VS battles simple due to the nature of the character. Theoretically he just one punches Hulk and Thor because that is the nature of the character.

Because No Limits Fallacy is a thing. Can't claim a character can do(or survive) something when they've never done it before. Hulk and Thor are stupidly above his pay grade going off of feats alone.

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#172 Edited by Earendill (1090 posts) - - Show Bio

Hulk is irrelevant.

Team 1 win.