Supergirl and Jay Garrick vs Gladiator and Nova Prime

The Rules

• In-Character (Morals On/Off depending on character's personality).
• Standard Knowledge applies for everyone.
• Battle Field Removal/BFR is not an option.
• No Prep Time. Standard Equipment.
• No amps unless stated otherwise.
• Average Teamwork.
• Post-Crisis/New 52/Rebirth feats apply for Supergirl.
• Pre-Flashpoint Jay Garrick (no Pre-Crisis or New 52 feats).
• Fully confident Earth-616/regular Gladiator.
• Post-Annihilation/Full Nova Force Richard Rider with Worldmind.
• Win by Death/Incap/KO.

Bonus Round:

Perfect Teamwork and Battle Field Removal is allowed. The rest of the rules are the same.

Location

Callouts

@krleavenger:

Team 2 probably. The two capes go at it, Worldmind detection and Nova Force shut down Garrick.

@krleavenger: Don't you think the scales are tipped a bit in the Marvel team's favor? Seeing as Kallark and Kara are essentially the same powersets, and putting that argument aside for a moment.......it's about Jay and Richard. Rich's speed (reactionary not travel) is fair enough to content with Jay and his overall versatility is more than enough to overpower him easily (Gravametric abilities alone, plus worldmind's assistance). That leaves the duo VS Kara and they take the win IMO.

Team 1, Gladiator is a weak link and Jay is too fast for Richard.

@cosmicallyaware1: Not at all. NewWorldOrder/HeirtotheKingdom is probably the most knowledgeable Nova debater I know, and he already conceded that Jay would take the majority against Rich in a CaV we had a year ago. Even if you disagree with the outcome of that fight (which is completely understandable, you can't base your opinion off of other people's opinions, even if they are "experts", that would be stupid), I don't see anyone having advantage over the other one. Jay should be on the same level as Rich regardless of who would win.

@krleavenger:

NewWorldOrder/HeirtotheKingdom is probably the most knowledgeable Nova debater I know, and he already conceded that Jay would take the majority against Rich in a CaV we had a year ago

Lol, I remember him when his username was jeanroygrant. Yeah, he knows his stuff. I feel I may be even moreso knowledgeable, I could change your opinion on that front I believe :)

That's cool, hook me up with that link..........I would VERY much like to read that debate! I do trust his opinion, so I'm curious t see the reasoning and your exceptional debating in that!

I don't see anyone having advantage over the other one. Jay should be on the same level as Rich regardless of who would win.

Not even taking into consideration the vast versatility Rich has with his Gravametric capabilities?

Supergirl can beat gladiator 1 vs 1. As for nova primes feats are mostly travel speed feats based on a cav I read. I think Jay can hold him off or last long enough. Combat speed wise team 1 is better overall. Team 1 takes this.

@cosmicallyaware1:

Lol, I remember him when his username was jeanroygrant.

I believe he stopped using that account long before I joined.

Yeah, he knows his stuff. I feel I may be even moreso knowledgeable, I could change your opinion on that front I believe :)

It would not surprise me, but it's not necessary on this thread in particular.

That's cool, hook me up with that link..........I would VERY much like to read that debate! I do trust his opinion, so I'm curious t see the reasoning and your exceptional debating in that!

Sure thing. Here's the link:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/cav-nova-prime-themultiversity-vs-jay-garrick-krle-1857814/

Unfortunately, it never finished. I believe NWO/HTTK (he used an alternate account at the time) conceded or something, so there was no need to continue.

Not even taking into consideration the vast versatility Rich has with his Gravametric capabilities?

I do acknowledge that ability of his, but Jay also has a lot of versatility. Superior speed aside, he also has phasing and speed steal. I'm not trying to argue for Jay here (I made this thread after all). Like I said, I think their fight can go either way. I just don't see Jay as being a underdog/weak link here. He has his own advantages and Nova has his own.

@krleavenger:

It would not surprise me, but it's not necessary on this thread in particular.

:) ok then, you are right about that.

thanks you for the link, I'll check that out!

Jay also has a lot of versatility. Superior speed aside, he also has phasing and speed steal. I'm not trying to argue for Jay here (I made this thread after all). Like I said, I think their fight can go either way. I just don't see Jay as being a underdog/weak link here. He has his own advantages and Nova has his own.

I'm not trying to sell Jay short by any means, I acknowledge his veteran skill and abilities. I simply feel that Nova (especially Prime) outclasses him a bit with an edge on versatility. I do think it possibly could go with way, but see Nova taking it between the two 6/10. Just my opinion I guess. Agreed they both have their own advantages.

Supergirl and Jay Garrick.

I go with team 1 but I rooted for team 2

I'm going to say team 1, Jay is underated. IMO.

I'll go for team 2

Team 1

Team 1 for a majority.

Definitely team 2.

@krleavenger: It's a bit out of context to say that Jay has Speed Steal, it barely worked on Superman who he only slowed down for few seconds, he barely got a boost from that as well.

I am going with Team 2, Gladiator being their MVP and Jay being Team 1's weak link.

@sirneko: Jay was able to slow Superman down by significant margin, and use it to increase his own speed (something you can see when Jay was literally leaving Clark in the dust afterwards). Literally the only reason why it wasn't permanent is because that's exactly what Abra Kadabra wanted. He extended Jay's energy around all three speedsters and teleported them into his own timeline.

"It's about time, old man. Absorbing Kryptonian's speed. Now, lets extend your little lightning field." Prior to doing this, Jay was obviously much faster than Clark. But Abra Kadabra manipulated those energies in order to allow him and them to time travel. You can see that yellow and black energy that was around Jay who stole Clark's speed, being extended around all three speedsters.

It has nothing to do with Jay being bad or not knowing how to speed steal. He may not be able to turn you into complete statue like Wally can, but he is still capable of slowing others down to give himself speed, even someone like Superman. For your information, Jay stated he could steal Bart Allen's speed in JSA Vol. 1 #54, someone who has connection to the Speed Force and is much faster than both Clark and Jay. He also stole Black Adam's speed twice with zero effort, in JSA Vol. 1 #20 and JSA Vol. 1 #22 respectively. He also stole Edward Clariss', the Rival's speed in JSA Vol. 1 #19, another character who also happens to be faster than both Jay and Clark and has connection to the Speed Force. So yeah, Jay's pretty damn good with Speed Steal, and stating he can steal speed effectively is not contextual at all. It was well established by Geoff Johns.

@krleavenger: That is far from a massive margin and Superman was still running, slowing down isn't going to help him much in a battle, I mean you do know how kinetic energy works, right? All Wally and Jay do when "speed stealing" is kinetic energy and if the object keeps moving it's going to build up the kinetic energy again very fast.

JSA #20 Teth Adam being barely able to keep up with Jay was one of the worst comic book writings I have seen, not only that, it was never shown what happened to Adam after that. Latter also goes for #22

In JSA #19 he literally said he speed stole "living" energy, not an actual human being.

So yes it is out of context to say he can just speed steal people without saying that only time we have seen the effects on the other person is when he speed stole Superman in DC First and that only slowed him down and an object that is still moving will keep building Kinetic Energy back up.

@sirneko:

That is far from a massive margin and Superman was still running, slowing down isn't going to help him much in a battle, I mean you do know how kinetic energy works, right?

Of course, because Jay wasn't trying to turn Superman into a statue for God's sake. He tried to prevent Superman from sacrificing himself to Wally, by touching him. Jay wanted to do that himself, and since he was as fast as Superman (not faster), he stole enough speed to slow Clark down and make himself faster. That by itself is extremely impressive. It's not like I was trying to say that Jay will turn either Rich or Gladiator into a statue. I just said that Speed Steal is extremely versatile ability Jay can use, which is indeed useful.

All Wally and Jay do when "speed stealing" is kinetic energy and if the object keeps moving it's going to build up the kinetic energy again very fast.

This is false. In All Flash (2007), Wally was able to turn Inertia into a statue, leaving him without his speed for eternity.

I'm not saying Jay can, or will do something like this. I'm just providing information.

JSA #20 Teth Adam being barely able to keep up with Jay was one of the worst comic book writings I have seen, not only that, it was never shown what happened to Adam after that. Latter also goes for #22

And? Again, I wasn't trying to say that Jay will turn his opponents into statues. Just that he can slow them down and increase his own speed. Adam having a hard time to keep up with Jay being one of the worst comic book writings has nothing to do with anything. Regardless, the burden of proof is on you, since Jay has much better feats than Teth and was actually able to blitz him on at least two separate occasions.

In JSA #19 he literally said he speed stole "living" energy, not an actual human being.

Eh? He started stealing his speed when he was about to connect with the Speed Force. At that moment, a speedster's body fluctuates between physical form and energy form. It still has nothing do to with anything aside from the fact that Jay could steal his speed while he was moving that fast. What are you trying to say here is beyond me.

So yes it is out of context to say he can just speed steal people without saying that only time we have seen the effects on the other person is when he speed stole Superman in DC First and that only slowed him down and an object that is still moving will keep building Kinetic Energy back up.

He stole Rival's speed, he stole Superman's speed and he stole Black Adam's speed twice. I never said anything out of context so spare me the strawman arguments. I literally said that Jay can steal speed. Nothing more. I never said he will turn them into statues or something so I'm not sure what you are going for with this argument of yours.

@krleavenger:

This is false. In All Flash (2007), Wally was able to turn Inertia into a statue, leaving him without his speed for eternity.

What he did was just cruel lol

@_kingoflatveria: Indeed, but he deserved it for what he did to Bart.

@krleavenger: I haven't read the issue, what did he do to deserve that lol

Nova outspeeds and defeats Jay while gladiator handles Kara

@krleavenger: you want to start/continue jay-nova cav with me?

Nova could win this but I'm pulling for Jay

Team one fodderizes. Nova is a fodder. Gladiator is really strong, he can tear black hole apart with his bare hands and he is currently odin's level due to going against Jane Thor, but team one is too fast.

You realize of course that Gladiator has feats of travelling 100 times the speed of light and has nanosecond reaction feats right?

@rr79: Flash should still be faster and supergirl is nearly as strong as him. And how confident was him at the time?

Jay Garrick is not faster than 100 times faster than light. And his confidence was not mentioned in either feat.

@rr79: Ok, but supergirl is also faster than him via scaling. Superman spent 60 days flying to earth from the die of the unvierse in a weakened state without sunlight. I don't remeber how I calculated this but that would put him 18700 ftl, which supergirl is comparable to him.

Does she have her own feats putting her at that speed? Sorry, but she isn't Superman and she doesn't get his feats just because both happen to be Kryptonian. It has been shown numerous times that all Kryptonians are not the same in power, speed, durability, intelligence, skill....etc.

@rr79: But Supergirl was shown to be equal to Superman.

Team 2 outclasses Team 1.

No, she really wasn't.

@chad_duby: Gladiator has travelled galaxies in moments, light-years in seconds etc

@apex_pretador: Which event?

@rr79: She was, atleast very close.

The biggest difference between Supergirl and Superman is that she hasn't learned to hold back like he has. When he lets loose, he is far stronger and faster than her.

@rr79: I will have to do a little research about that. But that was weakened Superman with no sunlight, who was far weaker than when he lets loose with his full might.

@chad_duby:

Infinity Relativity - he travels 200 lightyears in minutes

Mighty Thor 15 - he travels galaxies in a blink

@apex_pretador: mighty Thor 2011? Ok, I will find some contexts.

No, the current one.

Wait a minute

Gallery

@krleavenger: Yes, Wally was able to turn Inertia into a statue because he took away all of his kinetic energy, Jay was unable to take away Superman's kinetic energy, meaning that Superman would eventually build it up again.

I am not strawmaning anything, I am also not saying you said anything wrong, I just pointed out that what you said was out of context. When you talk about Speed Steal, people first think of Wally making Inertia a statue, so it's out of context to say Jay can speed steal when all he can do is slow an opponent down, which would be completely useless against Gladiator.

It’s close. Seems like most people in the thread are sleeping on either Jay or Glads.

Shouldn’t sleep on either, but I’d back Team 1 in a really good fight.

@krleavenger:

Jay could try speed steal on Nova, but how effective would that really be? His power isn't just physical. Nova has the Nova Force he can use internally and externally. There's also the Worldmind guiding him.

@_kingoflatveria He depowered Bart Allen and made the Rogues kill him with their weapons. Wally was in the Speed Force at the time and wasn't aware of it until sometime after he got out. By the time he came back, Bart was killed and there was a funeral and what not. Wally was furious, but he decided not to kill him since Inertia is still just a kid, despite the fact how twisted he is.

@apex_pretador I don't know about that. Like I said, I think it can go either way. Heir and I decided to do that CaV just so we could argue about something, not because I necessarily believed that Jay is overall superior to Rich. I would love to do a CaV with you, but I don't feel like using Jay right now.

@strike3 I just said he has Speed Steal. How effective it would be is for others to argue over. This is my thread that I made for others to debate on. I'm just there to check it out. Literally the only reason why this conversation started is because Cosmicallyaware1 asked me if this match-up seems a bit unbalanced because Nova has a lot of versatility, like gravity manipulation. I just pointed out that I think the match-up is well balanced and that Jay is also pretty versatile by himself.

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@sirneko

Jay was unable to take away Superman's kinetic energy,

Jay had no intention of stealing all of his kinetic energy.

meaning that Superman would eventually build it up again.

Never said otherwise.

I am not strawmaning anything, I am also not saying you said anything wrong, I just pointed out that what you said was out of context. When you talk about Speed Steal, people first think of Wally making Inertia a statue, so it's out of context to say Jay can speed steal when all he can do is slow an opponent down,

The only thing I said is that Jay can steal speed. I never said he can steal all of it and prevent you from building up more speed later. You admitted that he can slow people down. That is Speed Steal. Nothing out of context there. Just because I never pointed out that Jay can't turn you into a statue does not mean what I said was out of context. Saying that I said something out of context means that I made an incorrect assertive statement. That's not it. You are talking about something I didn't point out, not something I stated. Jay can steal speed to slow people down. That's all.

which would be completely useless against Gladiator.

He won't use it against Gladiator because Gladiator's combat and reaction time speed (traveling speed is 100% useless in fights) is lackluster compared to Jay's. If anything, he will try to use it on Nova Prime. Not that it is a game changer. I didn't make this thread with the winner in mind so I don't want to make it look like I'm arguing for Jay over Nova Prime. I already stated that the fight between Nova and Jay can go either way. Gladiator is suppose to fight Kara, which I assume is an interesting and close fight by itself.

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