Superboy Prime vs Jin Mo Ri

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ThEBeStOfTheBeST

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Prime stomps.

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cdavis6149

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@superprimetime: I don’t hate prime I’ve always thought he at least had a cool design and concept behind his character. Heck I was really happy during death metal when Scott and Geoff decided “ok let’s try to actually do a good job at writing him this time”.

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ProfessorRespect

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@cdavis6149 said:

@renegadism: moris best speed feat was going from at least 1 solar system to another in about 1 to 2 minutes (or not even 1 second depending on how you interpret it. I don’t think it was THAT fast though) and attacking the king (who reacted and blocked it) which puts him at about 450,000 to 900,000 times ftl pre- acupuncture low balling the distance between solar systems about 1,500,000 to 3,000,000c with the average distance between them. That would be about 750 billion times ftl in travel and combat speed post-acupuncture. It’s not as fast as prime, but it’s pretty fast

Also PR hates prime more then you do, everyone who debated him on this character finds this out eventually.

The idea that one "hates" a fictional character because they disagree with the abundance of bad takes about said character isn't exactly solid, nor is it original. This is why you are where you are.

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thEonE34gG

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Boy Prime

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deactivated-6492589c59640

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Chungus5555

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SBP

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Whathappened

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@renegadism said:

Wait a minute, I must seriously be missing something. If Superboy Prime can catch TDK, who can keep up with the Flash, why wouldn't he be able to keep up with Mori?

Exactly

Didn't Prime get blitzed by the Flash family and was deathly afraid of them?

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EcoBlitz

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@whathappened: yup. Even Jay Garrick was as fast if not faster than him

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UltraPhoenix

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TDK couldn't keep up with the Flash family, he had to try and drain the speed force in order to have a chance.

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deactivated-61baf7ac11c2d

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Prime gets splattered. Mo-Ri is so far above conventional high tiers and teambusters it's not even funny.

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UltraPhoenix

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@superprimetime:

He was literally right behind them but he withdrew anyway and decided to burn the speedforce itself he literally transcends the speedforce, connective energy which TDK uses made the speedforce in fact it made everything in the DC mutliverse.

He didn't decide to withdraw, he was trying to outrun and out smart them, but still failed to do so depsite the speedforce burning out and making things much more difficult.

Whether he’s faster is really up to what facts you decided to choose over the other since he does canonically transcend the speedforce that said he didn’t catch the speedsters but then again he wasn’t even at full power, he hadn’t gotten the energy from the mobius chair so he had minimal connective energy tbh. That said Prime fought TDK that was fully powered and was stated by The Chronicler to be capable of destroying the entire DC Multiverse.

Ok and it's not like the Flashes were at their full power either, so they weren't at an advantage in the fight either, and when he did gain more energy it's not like he was speedblitzing people all of a sudden, he didn't show any impressive combat speed either, so trying to scale off of him in terms of speed doesn't really work.

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EcoBlitz

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Poopiehead

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OP states "in their prime" so we're using the Prime that fought the Darkest Knight? In that case he wins pretty easily.

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deactivated-61a94331705e8

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Prime curbs

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UltraPhoenix

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@superprimetime:

True but as I said he was weakened, it was only when he got that power from the mobius chair that he truly surpassed the Speedforce on a conceptual level, he had energy that could literally make its own speedforce, for reference Wally merely touching the touch for the first time made him omnipresent to TDK who absorbed all its power he basically transcended speed as a whole, and this is evident in his fight with Wonder Woman as they demonstrated immeasurable speed.

They didn't demonstrate immeasurable speed, how can you even demonstrate that? It's not like their fight happened so fast that they nobody could tell what was happening.

As I stated above he literally transcends the speedforce and time itself, you’d have to overlook feats like TDK just casually burning the speedforce or destroying the speedforce equation BEFORE he was at full power both of which are immeasurable feats as he would have TK transcend time, heck when he first got his powers he saw all for time threw out the entire dark multiverse, he is solidly immeasurable before his amp let alone after when he was stated to have enough energy to destroy the multiverse.

Not sure what you mean by transcend or what that has to do with speed but Wally for example has ran faster than the speedforce, does that count as transcending it? Also TDK wasn't alone burning out the speedorce, it was the strain all the speedsters were putting on it and the TDK's minions who were also connected to it. It was a combined effort from everyone running, not TDK himself.

What you need to understand is even if one flash memeber was given the entire speedforxe they could not compete with TDK who has energy that can create the speedforce several times over it’s literally the energy The Source uses. So Prime would have to have been immeasurable in speed in that encounter specifically.

Prime hasn't demonstrated any impressive use of speed though, you're just assuming he would hypothetically undergo this route in a fight when in reality he mainly just brawls with people in H2H and the other abilities he does use are things like HV or frost breath. When it comes to going fast it's not just about having the entire speedforce but also having great control over it. Either way Prime doesn't generate the speedforce or use connective energy in fights (unless you think he was amped when fighting TDK) so the scaling is kind of weird.

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UltraPhoenix

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@superprimetime:

You seem to have forgotten as they fought TDK and Gden Wonder Woman literally punched each other threw time and flowed each other threw time also, TDK has immeasurable speed and only immeasurable characters can deal with immeasurable characters as they are infinitely above characters with infinite or finite speed.

That's unquantifiable, not sure what fighting through time even means, are they time travelling? Because Flashes have done this stuff as well, and there's no indiciation any superspeed was being used when TDK fought Prime.

TDK was literally pushing back against the Speedforce equation which was basically a time freeze powered by a multiversal force to do such a thing requires immeasurable speed and/or to transcend time and the speedforce itself.

No to do such a thing just requires you to put strain on the speedforce, and simply using the equation caused strain, so did running, again this a shared feat.

My point is he was able to keep up with a being that is immeasurable in speed that is impossible unless you yourself are immeasurable. There is FTL faster then light, infinite speed which is crossing infinite distance in finite time, immeasurable basically means speed that transcends time so time travel or travelling infinite distance in 0 seconds. They are infinitely above each other. So Prime has scaling to the TDK who literally transcends the entirety of the DC mutliverse at full power and your forgetting he has pre-crisis immeasurable time travelling feats and scaling to Pre-crisis Superman and the OP said this is him at his Prime so either way I can use his time travel feats from pre crisis era or I can use scaling to pre crisis Superman or TDK or direct scaling as flash’s admitted Prime was faster then them. Need I go on?

If your definition of immeasurable speed is just time travel then that's something that the Flashes can already do, like Wally racing the Black Flash to the end of time, or Barry and Thawne fighting through time or literally any other character than fights through time or hypertime like Zoom.

In Prime's fight with TDK there was no indication they were fighting at immeasurable speed, in fact the worlds being destroyed as a result of their fight was literally being seen by the rest of the heroes, and no one was being punched through time or anything.

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It's like saying anyone who's tagged or fought Reverse Flash is immeasureable in speed because he's had a fight while travelling through time, which is just absurd. Also when did Flash say Prime was faster, and which Flash was this? Because I'm pretty sure he's only had a speed advantage when he had a headstart on the Flashes, and even then he's been blitzed by them several times and only tagged them like once.

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UltraPhoenix

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#181  Edited By UltraPhoenix

@superprimetime:

They were just casually fight and punching each other threw the timeline thats called immeasurable speed. And just cause a character doesn’t time travel at a given point doesn’t mean they aren’t immeasurable like Sonic being completely unaffected by time stops. Superboy Prime was relative to TDK and TDK admitted he couldnt beat Prime. Prime scales directly to him in speed in fast he had the upper hand.

TDK wasn't shown using any speed though, that's the thing, otherwise any person who's ever fought Flash is immeasurable in speed because Flash has travelled through time.

Wrong putting a strain wouldn’t let you move while it’s active.

Your forgetting the speedforce equation uses The Speedforce as a power source, the speedforce wasn’t burned out and yet TDK was able to move despite it meaning he had to transcended it to bypass it completely.

And like I said that’s while weakened, your using the definition of strain incorrectly if I put a strain on a cars engine if it’s still going the strain hasn’t taken it’s toll to completely destroy the car likewise the speedforce equation was powered by the speedforce and it should’ve kept freezing people indefinitely until the speedforce was completely burned out as fuel but TDK bypassed it that’s what your not getting.

Putting a strain on something doesn't completely block it, if I put heavy weights on you it would put a strain on you but you might still be able to lift them, and it was mentioned how running also put a strain on the speedforce which they all were doing. The TDK and the Flashes were both putting a strain on it, and simply using the formula accelerated the burnout, it wasn't the TDK's doing entirely that's the point. You're trying to pass it off as a feat for TDK but there were multiple people responisble for it. The fact that the speedforce was burning out is why it couldn't keep them frozen forever, because the power was running out/

Yes immeasurable speed is speed that transcends time, it allows you to do things like time travel, cross infinite distance in 0 time, no be affected by changes to the conventional flow of time, even allows for instantaneous feats of speed.

The very first thing Prime did in his fight against TDK was he flew out of the multiverse to hit him.

And he was relative to TDK the entire time, this wasn’t a simple one of getting tagged once kinda thing this was consistent, and he even overwhelmed TDK and by TDK own admission he said he couldn’t beat Prime as a result Prime scales to TDK at the very least.

Like I said you’d also have to overlook pre crisis time travel feats prime has, Pre crisis scaling to characters like Pre crisis Superman who Prime actually killed etc.

The other heroes could straight up see the fight occuring, meaning it's not immeasurable speed that's being used, using Pre-Crisis scaling wouldn't work either because Wally was faster than Pre-Crisis heroes as well, and he's shown to blitz Prime as well, so has Bart who's slower than Wally. Also travel speed that's used to time travel is not combat speed, that should be obvious.

Does Krypto have immeasurable speed too now since he was literally running away as Prime was fighting?

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What about Prime getting bullrushed by Superboy (top left panel)? Is this demonstrating immeasurable speed?

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Or the fact that Superboy could literally see him leaving the Earth, which is travel speed btw.

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There was also no time travelling even occuring during his fight with TDK, so again no evidence of immeasurable speed, you're just trying to scale him off of another fight with different circumstances.

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UltraPhoenix

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@superprimetime:

Wrong The Flash holds back consistently but when TDK fought Prime it was literally explained that by TDK himself that he couldn’t beat Prime that means Prime scales TK him directly they had to be relative, if Prime wasn’t immeasurable TDK might as well have been running circles around him in literally zero time.

TDK was also holding back against Prime, he literally says "I prefer not to expend the energy to kill you". So once again any scaling off of TDK and his speed goes out the window, and TDK never actually used his speed to time travel in the fight like he did against WW.

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Afterwards they say they can't beat each other and TDK says he wants to help Prime, so how exactly is he scaling to immeasurable speed here? He's literally fighting someone holding back who wants to help him.

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"...so let me help you"

What your saying doesn’t correlate with the natural idea of what strain is, if I put strain in myself as you said it wont stop me lifting the weights. If I attach a weight to the end of a hanging object it will add strain but it won’t stop it being lifted. The whole point of strain is it’s manageable, it doesnt actually impede an entity performing it goal/objective, merely putting strain of the speedforce which was powering The Speedforce equation wouldn’t change the fact it was just that a strain on the speedforce ir wouldn’t stop the speedforce stopping time thats the issue with your logic and it was running out it hadn’t ran out so the speedforce equation should’ve still been active and before you say it was due to all those other flash’s the speedforce equation itself was specifically said to have been countered by TDK specifically.

And I’ll add once again this was before he was at Full power with energy that transcended the speedforce.

Except it does impede someone, if there was no strain on the Flashses they'd be able to run for much longer periods of times without getting tired or being drained, yes TDK was pusing against the formula, but it was also mentioned that time would eventually restart, there's no inidcation that time would stay stopped forever. Either way multiple people were putting a strain on the force, this directly affected the Flashes ability to run as we saw with Jay getting tired and Wallace saying he felt a drain, so this was not all TDK's doing.

They literally weren’t even aware it was happening bruh.

They could literally see the worlds being destroyed as a result of the fight, and there was no mention of how fast they were going anyways.

My main argument is that Prime is immeasurable so I could honestly careless if he was faster or slower then Wally.

But to keep things factual, Superboy Prime already beat Bart Allen in Final Crisis Legion of Three worlds, he already beat Jay in Infinite Crisis, he already beat The Flash Family in Infinite Crisis etc.

He never beat them, he was literally getting clowned on by them, when he first encountered the Flashes they BFR'd him into the speedforce, BFR'd again in Infinite Crisis and was even held back by weak Flashes, then once again in Final Crisis Prime couldn't even tag Bart or Jenni, where exactly did he win again? We literally see Bart and Jenni are fine in the last issue, he never defeated them, except for like some alternate reality Jay Garrick, but I'm pretty sure even he was still conscious.

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As you can see Bart and Jenni are completely fine.

Your argument about travel speed not equaling combat speed isn’t valid when it comes to immeasurable characters as they are literally two layers of infinity above finite speed, they may as well be walking around in zero time with such speed.

If they're not shown using any sort of immeasureable speed during combat then they're not on that level, Prime never fought TDK through time like WW did.

Does Krypto have immeasurable speed too now since he was literally running away as Prime was fighting?

Wow we really going to be petty. Such a lowball is akin to Flash’s rouges gallery somehow disappearing when they run out the door. I might add for all we know Krypto could be frozen in time in that instance, what you are ignoring is that in the instance you’ve shown Prime is clearly hitting an immeasurable character and TDK couldn’t dodge simple as that they are relative.

Prime literally tells Krypto to run away, did you read the scan? If he was frozen in time he wouldn't be telling him to run, and once again trying to scale him to immeasruable speed when no mention of speed was there.

Except their is very little to suggest he’s trying in that situation in fact he stomped that guy so onesidedly I don’t think he was trying at all tbh.

So why's he getting tagged? If it's such a stomp he shouldn't be getting hit so often, he should be using his "immeasurable speed" but guess what, he doesn't.

Incorrect your trying to overlook obvious logic Prime is literally consistently tagging an immeasurable character this isn’t Zoom vs Wonder Woman where she uses timing, Prime is doing attacks that TDK can’t dodge they are relative in speed, if Prime was finite in speed he would literally never tag TDK once that’s what your ignoring bruh.

I could just as easily flip the logic on you since you think Prime wasn't trying agaisnt Superboy, but guess what, TDK wasn't trying either, he was specifically said to be holding back! TDK was literally trying to help Prime, and specifically holding back in how much energy he uses, I'll make things simpler since the WW fight and the Prime fight were written by the same writer.

When WW first fights TDK their fight can be seen by the Titans so no immeasurable speed is being used, you can see TDK being tagged and you can see the Titans react to it, so yes it's 100% possible to tag TDK without using immeasurable speed.

As you can see WW hits TDK with a small earth and the Titans look up to see their fight, they then get flung away as WW tries to catch tehm.

Now when their is time travel involved, the writers make sure to mention it.

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It's very clearly mentioned TDK hit her so hard she went back in time, however this was never indicated in the Prime fight, you're just assuming it occured without any actual evidence.

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UltraPhoenix

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#185  Edited By UltraPhoenix

@superprimetime:

Multiple issues he said he’d prefer not to expend the energy that means he was expending it at that moment he’d just prefer not too come on now

No it means he'd prefer to not kill him and rather help him like I showed in the next scan, even after Prime hits him a bunch he says he wants to help, which clearly means he's not going all out. Why would he actively go against his preference?

Furthermore that doesn’t mean TDK didnt think Prime was as strong or stronger then him bruh. Use common sense in this situation, he didn’t want to kill prime but was prepared to fight and kill The Hand and Golden Wonder Woman.

That just means the power he used against WW was more than what he used agasint Prime.

Its clear Prime is relative why else would TDK state he can’t kill him seeing him as a threat but is prepared to fight The Hand or Golden Wonder Woman it’s cause he’s just that strong that’s common sense the wtiting wouldnt make sense otherwise.

He didn't see Prime as a threat, but he actually did see WW as a threat because she was weakening him, if he saw Prime as a threat he wouldn't offer him help.

Basically he doesn’t want to expend energy on Prime but is prepared to expend it on Golden Wonder Woman and The Hand come on now.

Because WW was actually a threat to him, and he didn't want to help her. His power was fading from her punches and was growing afraid her, the same thing never occured in the Prime fight.

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And like I said only immeasurable characters can deal with immeasurable characters if Prime wasn’t relative he’d be getting clowned in zero time or negative time.

Not all immeasureable speed characters use that speed in every fight, just like in the beginning of the WW fight he didn't use any superspeed seeing as the Titans could see it all happen.

The fact he can even push back against a multiversal level time stop already makes him multiversal despite the strain as he would need 4D interaction on a conceptual level, he’s quite literally pushing against time.

Where was it ever mentioned that this was a "multiversal" level time stop? You realize Wally used the same formula to fight Zoom right? And there was no mention of time being stopped across the multiverse. He's literally pushing against the speedforce formula not time itself lol. Plus it was mentioned how time would eventually restart not that TDK himself was responsible for it, that's just how the formula works, time will eventually restart as Barry said.

Literally beat them of him and beat them again of scream it’s stated they don’t even think the fastest man alive can catch him they could only push him into speedforce when they caught him off guard

Cmon man did you actually read the story? You can do better than post a cropped scan without posting the full issue, in the very same issue he does the little spin he gets BFR'd by the Flashes, how is this a defeat?

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This happened at the end of the issue, but I guess in your mind this is considered a win for Prime right?

And in the third scan they literally devise a plan to chase Prime after he's had a headstart and it involved SBP getting scared shitless of Bart telling him to stay away and then running away like a baby, how is this a defeat???

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And dude Jay Garrick has always been alternate, been that way since Pre-crisis when Barry ran into another universe and meet the pre-crisis characters of earth-2

No the Jay Garrick posted in your scans has a different costume, he's different from the one who helped BFR Prime twice! Please read your scans, they mention "We were in Keystone... on another earth..." and "...with that world's Jay Garrick" notice how they mention the other worlds Jay Garrick? Because he's an alternate Jay Garrick, take a closer look!

He was originally scared when he saw Bart as he was the flash that absorbed the entire speedforce and pummelled him but he overcame that fear and beat him he’s literally KO’d the fact he’s even alive from heat vision when it went straight threw Superman on multiple occasion just shows the PIS involved regarding characters that survive encounters against him. But as shown he consistently tagged Bart.

That's because Bart and Jenni can dodge heat vision, they're literally doing it in the scans you posted, and it was the collapse that KO'ed them not Prime considering he didn't tag them once. Plus we literally see Bart and Jenni back in a couple of pages. So no this is just completely false there's not a single scan of him tagging Bart.

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You can literally see Bart and Jenni are not tagged by Prime, they fell down because the ground below them collapsed. Bart is even having a conversation with Prime lol.

Bruh what your not getting is TDK viewed Prime as an equal he would rather fight Golden Wonder Woman over Prime furthermore I might add characters that are immeasurable don’t need to time travelling to be immeasurable like I said they are so fast they can move in zero time or negative time or with infinite speed so characters with finite speed would be statues and yet your overlook Prime is already immeasurable from Pre-crisis feats and scaling to Pre-crisis Superman regardless of TDK.

You're not getting that characters with immeasurable speed don't always use that speed, that's why trying to scale off of Flashes doesn't work unless you can demonstrate they were using immeasureable speed in their fights. In the WW fight the writer makes sure to mention time travel but never did in the Prime fight. Like you said Flashses hold back in fights so scaling other people to immeasurable based off of them doesn't work, but you don't acknowledge that TDK was also holding back and trying to help Prime, so the scaling doesn't work there either.

Im aware he told krypto to move but the isn’t in motion for all we know he could’ve punched krypto while he was frozen mid running away. But that’s besides the point like I said this is akin to the flash’s rouges gallery somehow escaping a building with flash not knowing where they went, likewise that doesn’t make Flash finite in speed or his rouges immeasurable, it’s just done for plot purposes.

Why would he punch Krypto? Even if he did we see Krypton is fine at the end so it's obvious he never punched Krypto, and it's pretty obvious Krypto is running away from the fight, especially since Krypto had enough time to hear Prime and then run away from the situation, that's not immeasurable speed that's just a normal fight.

Also you've already said Flash holds back, so why don't you admit that TDK was also holding back? He literally says he prefers not to kill Prime and wants to help.

And yet I could say the same of any character with immeasurable speed as they can usually control their flow time as in their perception and lower their speed that’s literally any speedster. Flash can still beat a character using finite speed and does so many times, Sonic can beat characters are mach speed and if you piss him off he’ll start moving in zero time like he did against Time stopper when he moved in zero time. The point is they don’t have to be in constant immeasurable speed they can go to a lower speed and the only reason why I wouldn’t say TDK was at a lower speed is because he cleary sees Prime as more of a threat then Gokden Wonder Woman who is immeasurable and you’d have to ignore Prim already has Immeasurable feats from Pre-crisis era bruh.

Except he doesn't see Prime as more of a threat, he was literally fearing Wonder Woman in their fight and being drained by her.

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Whereas he literally wanted to help Prime in their fight.

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I think it's quite obvious who was the bigger threat.

Also what Pre-Crisis scaling is there? You know that Pre-Crisis characters are also very inconsistent right?

Wrong he didn’t say he was holding your twisting the quote to favour ur statement.

He said he’d “prefer“ not waste energy fighting him, meaning he was wasting energy fighting him at that moment. So your argument goes out the window.

So you think he's actively going against his own preference? Why would he help Prime if his goal is to kill him? That makes no sense whatsoever, it's pretty obvious that TDK's goal was to help Prime, and unlike WW he wasn't afraid, he wasn't being drained nor was he in any danger of dying, so yes he was holding back. You'd never expend enough energy to kill the person you're trying to help, and TDK is not dumb enough to do such a thing.

Yes and no see issues arise when you take into consideration TDK viewed Prime as a greater threat to him then Prime, keep in mind both Prim and Golden Wonder Woman was a surprise to TDK he didn’t know Wonder Woman would rise to power nor did he think Prime would revolt heck he even tried to appease prime before that in Trinity crisis, but it’s clear he’s reaction to the two threats are completely different, where he believes Prime is too much he’d rather fight Wonder Woman.

No he doesn't belive Prime is too much, he's literally afraid of Wonder Woman, I'll point this out again for you, whereas there was no indication of him being scared of Prime, or being scared.

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Furthermore you don’t need to be time travelling at a given point to be moving at immeasurable speed like I’ve explained countless times, the best anti-feat you’ve made though is Prime not getting punched threw time with TDK following that being said it could be that he’s so strong he couldn’t get punched threw time.

You yourself said time travelling is an example of immeasurable speed, guess what TDK did with Wonder Woman? He hit her through time and the writers made sure to mention it. WW is also more powerful than Prime so the idea that SBP can resist being punched through time is pure cope, he was literally laying on the ground all torn up after his fight with TDK.

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WW beat TDK whereas Prime failed, he didn't get thrown through time because TDK never attempted such a tactic, nor did Prime but that's probably because he's too dumb to use his so called "immeasurable" speed.

Either way you've given no evidence that Prime used immeausrebale speed against TDK or vice versa, whereas I've clearly shown TDK was fighting with the intention of helping Prime, not killing him. Whereas when he fought WW he was scared and being drained, and actually attemtped to use immeasureable speed. The guy who gets clowned on by Flashes like Bart Allen is not fighting at immeasurable speeds, sorry to burst your bubble.

Anyways I’m going to end this debate rn. The OP said charcters in their Prime so Prime had immeasurable speed in pre-crisis so let’s not drag it, the person Prime is fighting in this thread is only finite in speed lmao.

Yeah if only he ever demonstrated this immeasurable speed in combat you'd actually have an argument.

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Godlike_Warrior

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I say Superman Prime beats an army of Them.

GoD Tier Prime is, Jin is not even SSG Level.

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UltraPhoenix

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@superprimetime:

What you said is completely false and out of context.

TDK already explained he is incapable of killing Prime meaning any idea that he was holding back is irrelevant if he believes he can’t kill Prime.

No that's further reason to hold back, why would you expend so much energy on someone you can't kill? That's an excercise in futility, and TDK is by no means some idiot who would waste his energy on something he knows he can't accomplish.

Likewise what your saying makes no sense Prime and Golden Wonder Woman are both unknown variables how he responded to them was different his goal was to fight the hand and not them but in case of Prime he decided he expend more energy on him then on Golden Wonder Woman in which case Prime would have to be superior to her likewise TDK was comparable to her.

Wrong, Prime can't be superior to her for one simple reason, he failed to beat TDK! He straight up fainted after the battle after TDK already told him he's trying to help him, and instead Prime chose to keep trying to battle and lost.

So the idea he wasn’t going all out against a foe he deemed greater then Golden Wonder Woman makes no sense especially when we already hav confirmation he said he couldn’t kill Prime with his level of power.

There's no evidence he was greater than WW, the fact that he failed where WW succeeded is proof of that.

Even if I agreed that the power he used against Wonder Woman was more that wouldn’t change what I said. It wouldn’t change then weere both unknown variables and he decided Prime was stronger then Golden Wonder Woman that much is irrefutable. There is no counter to simplify this for you on one hand an unexpected opponent shows up and he choses to not fight him cause he’d be to injured to fight the boss on the other hand another unexpected opponent shows up and he decides he can take her and the boss. The intent is clear as day their is no room for other interpretations.

He never decided he was stronger than WW, he didn't even mention Prime in the WW fight, what was mentioned was TDK being drained and scared, something that NEVER occured during the Prime fight. There is no counter for the fact that WW actually managed to beat TDK and Prime never could, he straight up fainted and lost wherease TDK was still fine and dandy.

Nothing about this makes any coherent sense given the context, if you have the power to squash a bug u don’t hold back you don’t even think about giving it’s own multiverse to appease it and he was going to do that TWICE, cause he already gave Prime a multiverse to himself in Trinity Crisis, you don’t hold back in a fight against a big while bargaining with it, I’m sorry my friend but actually think about that. Deep it, Wonder Woman was the person he thought he shouldn’t worry about and Prime is the guy he thought he should worry about the idea prime isn’t relative to TDK in Death Metal is preposterous.

That's exactly why you hold back! So you can bargain with the bug, why would he try to kill the bug (which he said he can't) while also trying to help the bug? The answer is simple, TDK was trying to help him the whole fight, not kill him, and the multiple instances of TDK telling he wants to HELP Prime should be enough evidence.

These are at least 4 different instances of TDK offering to help Prime, he says he will offer Prime darkness and give it to him, which is why he'd prefer to not expend more energy. He once again offers Prime a world of his own and even considers Prime and himself as two similar people.

Last time I checked if I want to offer something to someone, I'm not going to try and kill them at the same time, it's comepletely idiotic and TDK is smarter than that.

This has truth to it, the Titans and Justice League memebers could see the fight going on. That said Prime’s immeasurable feats from pre-crisis era and the fact he‘s supposedly faster then the Flash Family, the fact TDK wasn’t holding back and even if he was stated he couldn’t harm Prime even if he tried means either they did use immeasurable speed or he didn’t think he could beat Prime even if he used it. And once again I’ll alert you to common sense, if you can fight in frozen time or negative time with your speed and say you can’t beat someone logically that person had to be relative to you to even hit you, it’s not even about if he’s using it, it’s the fact he can and still said he can beat Prime that automatically means they are on par.

He didn't specifically say why he can't beat Prime (he also said Prime can't kill him so keep that in mind), you realize there are multiple factors involved in beating someone right? TDK for all we know could be massively stronger than Prime but lack the AP to beat Prime, or Prime could be way faster than TDK but TDK lacks the speed to hit Prime enough times. Either way if the writers wanted to showcase they were fighting at super fast speeds they would've mentioned it like in the WW fight, and yes if you're holding back you obviously won't use all your speed or power, which as I've already proved TDK was holding back, otherwise he would't be trying to HELP Prime!

Why would you kill someone you want to help?!

My friend I said multiversal level time stop because the speedforce formula is powered by the speedforce itself, and in regards to it not working on Zoom I don’t know the context but I’m more then willing to guess its cause he’s powered by the negative speedforce so naturally it would counter it. But by all means you can give the me the issue and I can check for myself. Are we even going to mention that we already argued I got scans that show the speedforce is what pushes time forward, it controls the conventional flow of time so your explanation “pushed against the speedforce formula and not time Itself“ seems rather redundant especially considering the effect it literally had on time. Now your the flash expert i acknowledge you as my superior but see this from my perspective your allegations thus far have been rather skeptical in fact your entire take on Prime’s power has been that of a skeptic thus far tbh.

Zoom was already operating in frozen time, so Flash used the formula to be on the same playing field as him. The speedforce and time itself are not one and the same, now the speedforce can allow you to manipulate time but just because you have access to the speedforce doesn't mean you have control over the entirety of time. In TDK's case he was pushing against the speedforce because the speedforce was responsible for the time stop, pushing against time is just a nebulous concept considering in DC time isn't an established force like the Speedforce is.

But I explained they only caught him off guard, when he was on guard he did beat them briefly with that spin attack which is still combat speed regardless.

Ok so first you said he beat them, now you say he beat them "brielfy"? Sorry but that's not a defeat, you realize Prime was fighting multiple Titans and actually killing them, but he couldn't actually kill the Flashes, or even severly hurt them, which is why they BFR'd Prime and therefore won.

Once again I detest taking things out of context I’m willing to bet I mentioned Bart with the entire speedforce being the soul reason for Prime’s speedster-phobia even though he eventually overcame it.

Again my point is that Prime never actually defeated the Flashes, because their encounters involved Prime getting blitzed and then either BFR'd or him retreating.

No I was rushing so I made some typos. What I meant to say was.

“Im aware he told krypto to move but the comic isn‘t exactly in motion for all we know he could’ve punched TDK while Krypto was frozen mid running away. But that’s besides the point like I said this is akin to the flash’s rouges gallery somehow escaping a building with flash not knowing where they went, likewise that doesn’t make Flash finite in speed or his rouges immeasurable, it’s just done for plot purposes.”

In regards to the last part it doesn’t make sense given the explanations I gave up above.

That seems highly unlikely, considering the punches from Prime was causing damage to environment and as we can see in the next scan a large wave of energy releases from their clash, Krypto would have to be moving in that instance if he wants to escape, the alternative would be that Krypto was caught in the blast radius but then it would mean that Prime's DC isn't even good enough to harm Krypto, I think the former is more likely.

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Scaling to Pre-crisis Superman who’s speed was near identical to Flash’s and he even won some of the races. And while Post crisis flash said they were for charity that was post crisis flash referring to post crisis Superman so it can’t be used as a debunk here, they (pre crisis Sueprman and flash) also have very similar feats of speed, and Superboy is stronger then Pre-crisis Superman in his literal first appearance a red sun generator that Pre-crisis Superman couldn’t break out off was easily broken by Superboy Prime even tho they were both inside, Pre-crisis superman has also admitted Superboy is one of the only people that can kill him and low and behold he did.

I’m a bit tired didnt get to address everything.

You mentioned scaling to their speed but now you mention their strength? Even Pre-Crisis Earth 2 Superman (Kal-L) has been equal in strength with Pre-Crisis Earth 1 Superman, and he was stalemating Post-Crisis Superman in Infinite Crisis, so does Post-Crisis Superman now scale to Pre-Crisis feats. Seems to me that Pre-Crisis heroes aren't that impressive because they tend to be inconsistent. Either way the fact that Prime was getting blitzed by the likes of Kid Bart Allen, it suggests to me that he doesn't have immeasurable speed.

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@superprimetime:

What you’d said here doesn’t make sense, if you know TDK couldn’t kill Prime that means he had to have superior durability and it’s because TDK isn’t an idiot that it would only reason that he didn’t just see Prime as superior in durability but in overall stats.

So why would he bother to use more energy on Prime if he knows he can't kill him? You agree that TDK isn't an idiot but you're making him out to be one if you think he's using lots of energy, it also doesn't explain why he'd try to help someone he wants to kill?

Out of context he didn’t die he BFR’d himself out of the comic his Retcon punches have always been unpredictable and has high Metaphysical capabilities. It was not a loss at best its in decided with the only facts being TDK admitted to prime being beyond his capabilities of being dealt with.

I never said he died, I said he fainted and you could explicity see him laying on the ground with his clothes all torn up while TDK was still fine and standing, I think it's pretty clear that looks like defeat. Self BFR is just cope, he never said he wanted to leave the battle, he was mad at TDK and trying to hurt him, why would he leave all of a sudden?

Except Wonder Woman ultimately beat him using the Death Sun with out it an actual fair battle between them would end in an unknown result. Likewise Prime was BFR’d so an actual fair battle between them and the conclusion would also be unknown hence why I use TDK responses to these two unknown variables to arrive at what can be the only conclusion.

Prime wasn't BFR'd, he literally passed out, his eyes were closed and he fell to the ground, whereas WW actually used her speed to send TDK to the end of time, Prime never did such a thing and instead lost considering TDK was still active. We also know that WW was weakening TDK with her punches, but that was never mentioned in the Prime fight.

What you said made absolutely no sense, TDK believed life was futile and that no one should be above him, that’s what caused him to make plans to kill Perpetua a being infinitely above him make plans to kill the hand, to steal the dc multiverse which Perpetua was going to use as a self sustain crisis energy generator to fight the source so he could do it himself and in all of this he offered Prime his own multiverse. Dude you don’t need statement to know TDK feared or at the very least was wary of Prime, and to this master genius who had plans to kill everything the best he could come up for Prime was to appease him and you think that means TDK cared about a bug? The simple answer is he never viewed Prime as an insect beneath he’s concern that’s why he bargained with him anyone could see that, the idea he wanted to Bargain with Prime from the goodness of his heart when he stated again and again he’s evil is not rational, it’s just unnecessary lowballing bruh.

He literally says him and Prime are similar, he doesn't view Prime as a bug which is why he chose to help him instead of trying to kill him. Why would the same writer go out of his way to point out that WW was draining TDK but never said the same thing for Prime? Why was explicity mentioned that TDK was scared of WW but not Prime? The reason this matters is because TDK obviously had different plans and intentions for Prime as opposed to WW or Perpetua, he wanted to help Prime, not kill him. That's not lowballing that's literally what the comic says.

What you said once again has some truth to it, the idea that Prime had stats that made him to difficult for TDK to deal with is a possibility it’s possible he’s so damn durable that TDK didn’t think he could ever kill him, however that being said with TDK’s speed if he truly was above Prime in speed he could literally just never fight him. Confrontation would never have to happen, it would be like being in a cage with the most poisonous snail, you simply walk away it’s not catching you. So while what you said here is a valid argument what I said isnt refuted by your argument and honestly it would only suggest they had to be relative if a dude that can plan ahead to kill a literal God can’t run from then common sense would dictate he’s relative to TDK.

TDK's goal was never to kill Prime like it was with Perpetua, so he'd have no incentive to use his speed, just like in the WW fight he didn't immediately start blitzing her, he took his time. But throughout the whole Prime he was offering Prime help, which is why it'd be stupid for him to go all out. It's contradictory to go all out against someone you want to help.

Prime literally beat them of him and stated he was faster then them, it would stand to reason, them BFR’ing was only due to them catching Prime off guard and considering kryptonian can control their level of speed it’s possible to do so if they lower their perception the same is true for flash also, I would imagine Superboy Prime isn’t always requiring time travelling speed like the speed he uses to travel to the 31st century to meet the legion of superheroes in pre-crisis era, from his appearances I believe he keeps it relative to other beings.

If he keeps it relative to other beings why can't he speed himself up? You realize when the Flashes were BFR'ing Prime they were moving at sub LS speeds? Because Jay Garrick was amongst them and still Prime couldn't react to or overpower them, and he got multiple times by Bart in the encounter. Sounds to me like Prime doesn't utilize his speed very often even against people who are below the speed of light and ends up getting BFR'd.

I see so your under the impression they attacked him then when he beat them back they BFR’d him immediately actually after he beat them back he went on to fight other heroes they caught him by surprise to BFR him and blitzing him when Barry had the whole speedforce is hardly an antifeat tbh.

He never beat them, that's my point, your definition of "beat" is very strange because the Flashes are still fighting back, they're still conscious and they're still pursuing Prime, whereas Prime is getting tagged very often and then either runs away or gets BFR'd which does count as defeat. Also Barry never had the whole speedforce, it was Bart, and in that instance no BFR was involved, what happened was Bart hit Prime a few times, Prime complained and then flew away.

When he did get BFR'd no one was amped and he was getting tagged repeatedly by Kid Bart.

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Prime’s retcon punches hardly ever to anything to the surroundings other then Retcon things in the comic in secret origin it was himself. When he broke out of The Phantom Zone the sky was orange and swirling just like in the scan you presented it did no damage to the surroundings but it retconned Beaat Boy’s origin and when he was pounding in the barrier between the paradise dimension and prime earth the Retcon punches sent waves that resurrected Jason Todd they are less destructive but the AP is incredibly high.

Prime wasn't retconning anything in the fight with TDK, nobody had changes made to their continuity, either way Prime would have to be able to talk to Krypto, and then Krypto would have to escape considering we literally see the ground below them shatter so yes the environment was being damaged.

In infinite crisis you’d have to forget it was explained that Pre-crisis Superman was weaker then when he was in COIE heck in COIE Pre-crisis Superman and Superboy stopped Post Crisis Superman going into Anti-matter verse since he was too weak they went in alone and fought The Anti-monitor who was juiced up the full power of the anti-matter verse which was mutliversal in size so Prime’s multiversal feats don’t even start in Death metal Anti-monitor even explained he’d use all the power of the anti-matter verse and his lifeforce if he could at least just kill those two and he failed.

You realize SBP Prime was blitzed and defeated by Pre-Crisis Earth 2 and Post-Crisis Superman right? So the notion of him being anywhere near multiversal is just wrong. If he was actually multiversal he wouldn't struggle so often with Connor Kent or literally all sorts of other heroes he had trouble with.

Maybe we should stop arguing we‘ve been debating about Prime’s speed this entire time not actually debating about who Mori vs Prime I hope people don’t think we’ve been arguing about that cause Prime even before death metal was taking universal attacks and in COIE multiversal attacks even.

Yeah that's just false, multiversal Prime is just wrong on so many levels, I don't even know how you can argue that after the myriad of scans I've shown with him struggling with high tiers who aren't even planetary.

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#195  Edited By UltraPhoenix

@superprimetime:

What you said still doesn’t make sense or address what I’m saying. TDK wanted everything and everyone in the positive multiverse to die and anyone above him to be killed. The idea he wanted to help Prime clearly stems from a place of fear and not the goodness of his heart which TDK as a character literally call the Darkest Knight lacks. Giving a dude an entire multiverse so he will stay happy despite him being from the positive multiverse means TDK not only couldn’t kill him but your logic ends their. I’m asking the more important questions why can’t he kill him and from Death metal we can come to a conclusion from the way he’s treated Golden Wonder Woman and Prime that TDK sees him as a superior.

It doesn't stem from a place of fear, but rather a sense of companionship or relatability. TDK mentions how him and Prime are very similar and want the same thing, which is why he wants to help him, it's not necessarily because TDK is some good person but because he believes him and Prime share the same motives.

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Remember back when Prime was trying to help TDK and wanted to redirect all the crisis energy to him? Prime wanted the world he grew up in to be restored and he (wrongfully) believed TDK could provide him that, and so TDK recreate the multiverse in his image and give one of the worlds to Prime.

Even if I were to agree with you that TDK somehow views Prime as his superior, the showings clearly contradict this, because TDK also said that Prime couldn't destroy him, whereas WW was actually able to destroy TDK and didn't faint from the effort, so it's quite obvious that WW is superior to Prime, hence why TDK feared WW and not Prime.

What you said here is the most redundant of arguments since I don’t even need to use large amounts of logic.

Prime didn’t want to leave he just did, he literally just opened his eyes and he was in the real world again.

Now your making stuff up, there is no counter just concede this point he had no intentions of leaving the fight but Retcon punches as I said are unpredictable and Prime can’t control them himself

Except your argument makes no logical sense whatsoever, why did Prime just all of a sudden decide to leave? If he just wanted to leave he wouldn't fall to the ground unconscious and then wake up in Earth-Prime. No one decides to just leave a fight by falling to the ground, Cyborg Superman even thinks he's dead, and the ending is nebulous as to what actually happened to Prime since we don't see him appear afterwards.

You would literally have to ignore the narrative which literally explains that Connective energy aka anti-crisis energy is literally a counter to crisis energy so ling as the individual using it believes in the truths about their good cause, it was literally explained Wonder Woman before hand would’ve been Perpetua in their first encounter if she wasn‘t doubtful so of course TDK was being weakened.

Speaking of draining you’d have to pretend like Prime couldnt have just absorbed all of his power but chose not too. This is all the more reason to believe TDK was just trying to appease Prime as he was literally a direct threat to his power and no schemes would stop him like stopped other characters smh.

Well if Prime could've just drained all his power he would've done that, but he never did, nor has he used draining in other fights, or he's just a complete moron who never thought to use this power (which he's never used) but the former seems more plausible. Yes WW uses connective energy and could use that to defeat TDK, hence why she's superior to Prime, the fact that she succeeded where Prime failed is direct proof that she's superior, that should be really easy for to understand.

Incorrect even if I agreed he wanted to help Prime out of the goodness of his heart and I don’t but even if I agreed, that wouldn’t explain not using speed, holding back AP sure but holding back speed which could be used to dodge attacks makes no sense, if I want to help a drunk old man and he starts swinging a bottle around in that moment I might decide not to hurt him cause he’s drunk but I will definitely dodge the bottle to the best of my ability. Your logic is inapplicable to any scenario furthermore TDK wasn’t holding back as I already explained TDK said he would prefer to not expend energy meaning he was expending energy at that moment.

I never said he wanted to help him out of the "goodness" of his heart, but he still wanted to help him regardless because TDK knew he couldn't kill him so instead he appeased to him via helping him. You must keep in mind that TDK is manipulative and evil, so instead of wasting his energy on someone he can't kill he'd instead calm him down by offering him a world, and Prime even contemplated accepting TDK's offer.

The old drunk man analogy doesn't hold up because TDK knew Prime couldn't kill him, in the same sense that Superman knows bullets cannot harm so he just lets them hit him, if TDK was at danger of being killed he would have to hit back a lot more. Your logic makes no sense because trying to help someone but then also trying to kill them at the same time is contradictory, you can't help a dead person lol. In fact it was TDK who said they can't kill each other, he was smart enough to know this and smart enough to try and appease to Prime.

I meant to say Bart it was auto-correct besides you should’ve been able to come to that conclusion since I’ve said in numerous past posts that it was bart that had the whole speedforce.

And when Bart had the speedforce no BFR was involved, he was simply beating on Prime until Prime flew away.

They fought back after they got knocked away and had a break so if you see prime leaving a defeat the same could said here since they didn’t fight back immediately meaning your logic is contradictory not only that you say they’d re still conscious but Prime was still conscious in the speedforce and he broke out so how is that a defeat?

If your opponent is incapable of fighting back or returning for an extended period of time that would be considered a defeat, I mean under your logic a KO is not a defeat because the opponent would eventually regain consciousness and wake up. If you carry an opponent somewhere and trap them how is that not considered defeating them? The opponent can't fight back, can't return and can't engage in combat so it's a win. Unlike Prime spinning really fast against the Flashes he wasn't effective enough in removing them from the battlefield, the fight still continued on as Prime was getting hit by other heroes. But when the Flashes BFR'd him the fight ceased to continue, therefore it's a defeat.

And honestly Prime running away from Bart wasn’t actually a loss if you read the narrative closely you would know he wanted to blow up Oa to cause a Big Bang and he says he’ll be the only one still alive so he would’ve killed flash if not for interference. Heck in Trinity Crisis he fought an exact replica of the Post crisis universe and won so your point that the flash family can beat Prime is moot at best they are a consistent annoyance.

I'm not bringing up that instance, I was talking about Bart and the other Flashes BFR'ing him in Infinite Crisis, and Prime beating a replica version of the Flashes is completely meaningless because if he can't beat the originals, that's what actually counts.

He literally retconned himself said this twice and as I already explained the DC from Retcon punches isn’t impressive merely destroying that small mountain isn’t going to hurt krypto it’s the actual punch that had high AP. Furthermore as I said we don’t have any time frame for the comic but that wouldn’t change what I said about not dodging being stupid if TDK is capable.

TDK knows he can't be killed, therefore he has no need to waste his energy dodging attacks that aren't a danger of killing him. Unlike WW who could actually weaken him and where he would need to utilize his speed and power to avoid being killed. He also didn't retcon anything, nobody's origins changed, Prime simply went back Earth Prime, things didn't change.

Why you being this out of context now I know you have an agenda against this character.

I know damn well that you know Prime was flown threw a red sun that weakened him so it can’t be used as an anti-feat, likewise Prime was going to win literally every crisis event he was in if not for a red sun or BFR, even mentioning Connor you’d have to ignore the fact he said he held back, he was killing most people BY ACCIDENT in Infinite crisis he was that damn strong and he beat Connor bloodly holding and honestly Prime’s AP is lower then his durability in post crisis era which he had to result to to blowing up the universe to deal with everyone in Death Metal he’s clearly a lot more powerful.

You realize the other two Supermen also flew through the Red Sun right? In fact when they landed on Mogo Prime killed Earth 2 Superman and then it was just between him and Post-Crisis Superman, both of them were powerless and yet Prime still lost. The funny thing is that Prime smacked Clark in the fact with Kryptonite but still failed to beat him, despite the fact that Kryptonite works on Clark but not Prime, so if anything Prime was at an advantage but still lost.

I never said Connor beat Prime, I simply said Prime struggled with Connor multiple times, he's only beaten Conor once in the multiple fights they've had even when he wasn't holding back, just look at their fight in Final Crisis. Also there is no evidence of him becoming universal after Post-Crisis, he never destroyed a universe with his own power.

Except literally none of them could do any lasting damage to him, the idea this character hurt Prime as in did 1 damage to character with million health is completely irrelevant, likewise for the most part he was bulldozing threw everyone except Bart with the speedforce so he decided to just blow up the universe. He was comfortably in multiversal levels of durability in Post crisis by author intent and feats and in death metal his AP has clearly been buffed.

Multiversal levels of durability in post-crisis? Is that why was bloodied by Sodam Yat (weakened by lead), Connor Kent, Krypto, and MMH? None of these people are anywhere near multiversal in AP and yet they had no problem harming Prime. It's insane to me just how much you're wanking Prime right now. If he had multiversal durability he'd just stand still and literally any attack would bounce off of him. You seem to be forgetting that Prime couldn't do any lasting damage to most of the heroes he fought anyway, the most damage he did was kill some fodder Titans and his fight with Superboy in Infinite Crisis, however he couldn't do any lasting damage to the high tiers he was consistently fighting and even in most of his other fights with Superboy.

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@superprimetime:

What you said here does indeed hold some truth essentially your argument is that TDK saw Prime and their similarities and desired companionship and that’s why he didn’t want to kill him, and that Golden Wonder Woman beat TDK which would make Prime weaker then her.

Now the part that holds truth is it’s literally stated in the scan, the issue that arises is it’s literally against TDK’s nature. From a logical point of view giving a dude an entire multiverse to himself where heroes live as a sign of companionship when you yourself detest heroes makes no sense. The idea that he would put his companionship above his ideals an alternate Batman no sells is extremely unlikely its most likely an elaborate lie and this is supported in the same scan you have were Prime calls him out on them not being the same, just to reiterate a person that hates heroes is telling a dude that loves heroes specifically heroes from the pre-crisis where the good guys always won and blood was never shed basically the most pure heroes are apparently have something in common. Just to reiterate the whole infinite crisis event happened because Prime wanted to get back to his earth and Pre-crisis wanted his earth restored the so called “perfect earth” Prime believed and agreed with him, he belived the post crisis earth was evil and thats why he cried when he killed heroes by accident stating they were corrupting him thag caused him to snap and decide to obliterate that universe since it wasn’t perfect and to him it was fictional and in Sinestro Corp war Prime literally states things Only a comic reader would know like when he said Post crisis firestorm isn’t the original. So once again as a Prim expert I’ve read he’s reading order mutliple times and I’ve read most of BWL’s reading order and I guarantee their is nothing about them that is the same other then the fact they both love their universes, BWL started Dark knights metal to make sure his dark universe and all other survived and didn’t de spawn essentially while prime looked for his, that’s their only common ground it’s not talked about. The similarities TDK mentioned make no sense.

The world that TDK was actually offering and the world that Prime believed he was getting were two different things, TDK's goal was to create his own twisted multiverse, and he would give one of those worlds to Prime. Prime however came to the realization that his parents and Laurie wouldn't be in the world that TDK offered, so it doesn't actually go against anything because TDK was offering a messed up world, not the actual thing Prime wanted.

In regards to the TDK losing to Golden Wonder Woman as I said that was technically thanks to the Death Sun so we can’t really say who would’ve won if the battle was prolonged without the Death Sun being there.

She was still draining TDK and making him afraid, there was so such indication of that in the Prime fight, keep in mind it was written by the same person and he made sure to specify how WW made TDK scared and weak, and specified the usage of time travel in their fights. WW also didn't faint from the effort of her fights.

Lord almighty!

Your speaking like someone that’s hasn’t read the comic where have you been getting your scans?

Theres no way you looked at what I said and came up with the above.

I’ll restate what I said Prime hit TDK with a Retcon punch so hard all the other universes ceased to exist TDK had to recreate them in the following issue, Prime fell to the ground but then opened his eyes to find out he’s reading his own comic in Prime earth, he didn’t die he BFR’d himself and was surprised that he was in Prime Earth so no he didn’t decide to leave the Retcon punch just sent him their.

So u haven’t read the comic I was wondering why their were so many contradictions in your arguments like bruh.

"He BFR'd himself", do you know how insane this sounds? What sort of person BFR's themselves by falling on the ground unconscious, in fact when Prime is shown again on Earth-Prime we don't even know what specifically happened because it's implied Prime may have died, he himself doesn't even know what happened but you can somehow state without evidence that he "BFR'd" himself?

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You're just making things up about "retcon punches" sending people elsewhere when that's even what a retcon punch does, considering nothing was retconned or changed, for all we know this could be Prime dreaming after he's fainted from exhaustion or him fainting sends him back to his original world or maybe this just what happens after Death Metal ends and all the worlds are restored, this could just as likely be the future but we don't have enough evidence to conclusively say either way, and certainly not enough to say he BFR'd himself.

No Prime literally states he could’ve taken TDK’s power if he wanted too this isn’t an argument I’m just stating what’s was on page.

He doesn't say how it could be his power, keep in mind Prime has never drained beings in fights before, nor did he explain how it could be his power, and it should be more obvious that he can't just drain all this power considering he needed the huge Tower to send all the Crisis energy to TDK in the first place, and needed the Alfred Box to transfer it, if Prime could do it all on his own he would've done so.

Once again how did u get these scans who is giving you these arguments cause know it’s abundantly clear you ait read The Secret Origin.

Furthermore Prime has absorbed energy passively in the past like when he absorbed the guardians energy, or in Shazam when he absorbed magic then proceeded to absorb the power from the shazam family reverting them to their base human forms.

Passively is not the same thing as actively draining energy, otherwise he wouldn't need to be wearing a suit all the damn time that provides him with solar energy, in fact that debunks the whole argument of him being able drain people because he could just drain the solar energy from other Kryptonians or from the sun.

You also didn't read the Shazam issue properly because they reason they reverted back is BECAUSE they said SHAZAM, you know the word that literally transforms them! Them transforming also knocked out SBP out cold so him absorbing the magic is just false.

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Lastly as I said Golden Wonder Woman beating TDK only occurred due to the Death Sun and Prime’s battle with TDK was inconclusive since he BFR’d himself out of the fight by mistake smh.

By mistake is just your own headcanon, he didn't even how he ended up back in his paradise dimension, if I accidentally BFR'd myself elsewhere I would simply teleport there, I wouldn't be falling on the ground unconscious. If Prime was actually capable of using immeasurable speed in combat maybe he could've actually beaten TDK but he never did, and he never weakened him either.

Like did u tell ur brother or friend to argue against me cause it’s genuinely like ur a different person I ain’t even mean that offensively, before you were making me look foolish above and I had to concede many point but know it’s like you haven’t read the comics in question.

I'm the only one who's been providing scans, statements that prove my points, had you concede on many points and yet I'm the one who's not reading the comics? I mean I literally just had to tell how Shazam's powers work, and yet you seem to be coming up with all sorts of wild excuses and abilities that Prime doesn't demonstrate in combat.

The bullet analogy is terrible bullets bounce off Superman, when Prime and TDK attacked each other they punch each other all over the place likewise TDK isn’t tanking the punches the idea Prime wasn’t relative when they are generating shockwaves of equal magnitude being produced from each side makes no sense or the fact he punch TDK down to the ground etc, TDK and Prime are relative otherwise it would end like that time Supergirl bullrushed H’el and almost broke her hand or the time Orion fought Superman and literally smiled at his punches and only one smile had superman on the ground unable to fly, the idea TDK and Prime are seperated by a large amount like your implying is foolish and not even Prime downplayers use such an argument as DC consistently shows what happens when a character outclasses another character in all stats as a result I’m bro even sure why we where arguing about minor formalities given the way this verse operates.

How is TDK not tanking his punches? Do you know what tanking means? Tanking is simply withstanding an attack without being incapicated, knocked out, or killed. None of those things happened to TDK so yes he simply tanked Primes's attacks, if he can tank Prime's punches and not be killed he has no reason to expend energy, he's not an idiot who will waste it on someone who can't kill him.

BFRing a character that will break out of it doesn’t mean you beat that character it just means you postponed the battle, if some in magic world banishes the demon lord to another realm after he folded the hero that’s not a win, you’ve just postponed the inevitable, what you said would’ve been valid if Prime was losing but he was basically unstoppable. Heck a better example is when theh trapped Super Buu in the hyperbolic time chamber he was beaten he was still capable of fighting all it did was postpone his violence.

That same argument could be used for literally any form of defeat except for death or incap, it's like saying knocking someone out is just delaying the inevitable because they will eventually regain consciousness and get back up. But Prime never did such a thing, in nearly all his encounters with the Flashes he was on the losing end by constantly getting tagged, getting his attacks dodged and then getting BFR'd.

He literally beat exact replicas so how is that not impressive smh, and like I said Prime broke out of the BFR it wasn’t even long it was shortly after so no it wasn’t a win.

Because if he can beat the "exact replicas" but not the real versions then it's worthless, either he's bluffing about them being exact replicas or he just sucks against the originals There is no evidence that these worlds and their heroes were exact replicas, in fact TDK explicitly created them so that the Crisis is always happening on them, it can never end there.

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Also Prime didn't break out shortly after, it took over a whole issue for him to return, and when he faced the Flashes once again he ran away from them.

Sorry but the comic already debunks this idea when TDK says he’d prefer not to waste energy on Prime meaning in that instance he was wasting energy on him.

No he said he'd prefer not to, and that's what he did, he's explaining his though process to Prime and what he intends to do, why would he not do what he prefers to do? He's not an idiot lol.

You purposely didn’t respond to the paragraph regarding that therefore I’ll take it that you concedes that point and yet you are using the above while pretending as if I didn’t explain TDK wasn’t holding back what kind of debating chivalry is this?

Not respond to what, Krypto? We literally don't see Krypto in the shot where the ground below them is destroyed, if Prime's punches couldn't damage the environment and thereby harm Krypto he wouldn't have told him to run, and there was no indication of how long time had passed so you're unable to prove he used immeasureable speed, whereas in the WW fight we clearly see it's stated that time travel was involved. The writers are not idiots, the same person wrote both fights but made sure to mention the use of time travel in one fight but not the other, the intent is pretty clear.

To jog your memory I said this “Your logic is inapplicable to any scenario furthermore TDK wasn’t holding back as I already explained TDK said he would prefer to not expend energy meaning he was expending energy at that moment. And don’t post the same faulty lecture about using prefer, the term prefer is used to say that your not currently doing something according to your preference, if Im not driving my car and I’m driving someone else’s I’d prefer to drive mine, if I’m already in my car I already have my preference so I wont use the word prefer at all. I can’t remember what you said last time cause it gave me a headache bruh.”

If he's saying I'd prefer not to use enough energy to kill Prime he's telling him he could be using more energy, but prefers not to, otherwise he wouldn't be trying to help him! If he was using lots of energy he's going against his own goal of helping Prime, how is that not easy to understand?

What you said here is redundant is confirmed he destroyed a universe in the mutliversitu guidebook I wasn’t arguing I was just stating something that occurred the damage to space time was deemed irreparable so Prime’s Retcon punch was clearly used.

No it wasn't, please show a scan that says Prime under his own power destroyed a universe. In fact it took hours of pounding for him to chip away at a dimensional barrier even while given Luthor's powers, and in Death Metal him and several other heroes needed to bullrush Earth just to destabilize it.

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Furthermore as I stated most characters that face Prime have a level of PIS since if Prime killed them DC literally wouldn’t have comics to sell, Furthermore the argument is redundant since Prime has literally only every lost when a red sun was involved, or was BFR’d literally every event he’s in he was winning until a red sun or BFR was used.

Yet again another excuse, it's not PIS if it's consistent, if Prime was a universe buster he wouldn't constantly be fighting sub planetary high tiers all the time, he would be fighting multiversal entities all the time, literally every event he was in he was stopped by the heroes, he never actually won so I don't get what your point is? So much for being a universe buster I guess.

And in Death metal he literally destroyed the multiverses in the dark dimension altho there’s a lot of controversy on as to whether it was due to him or the fork but even besides that he and TDK literally detsroyed earths/universes in their collisions and Prime caused the other earths to be destroyed with his Retcon punch before he BFR’d them so TDK had to recreate them.

There's no indication if he destroyed or if they just dissappeared as a result of his retcon punches, the heroes explicity note the worlds were vanishing, not being destroyed, which suggest it was a retcon punch.

In regards to Superman what your forgetting is under a red sun it simulates the environment of krypton meaning he would be the same as a kryptonian under a red sun. If you know anything about kryptonians under a red sun it’s that green kryptonite doesn’t harm them, kryptonians can touch kryptonite with no harm while under a red sun. The entire planet was made out of the stuff, this is even explained in justice league action, kryptonite only affects kryptonians under a yellow sun. As a result it was just a full grown adult verses a teenager.

He would literally be a regular human under a red sun, he was still smacked in the face with kryptonite while powerless by Prime and still was good enough to beat him

If he wasn't harmed by the kryptonite then the Green Lanterns wouldn't need to get rid of the kryptonite when he arrived, but they did.

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Now things may have changed after Post-Crisis but kryptonite has been shown to work even under a red Sun before as it was literally killing Jor-El when he wasn't even in front of Kryptonite, whereas Superman took a direct chunk to the face so yes he was quite weakened and about to die.

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What you said here is completely irrelevant. Completely and utterly. I’ll make this simple no character has ever KO’d prime at normal level’s the fact they can make him bleed doesn’t mean he’s any where close the threshold of being KO’d or dying.

Shazam and Black Adam already accomplished this WHILE Prime had his suit on that supplies him with energy, no amount of excuses is getting around that and so did the Teen Titans. High tiers being able to make a "multiversal" character bleed means the character is not multiversal, Prime wouldn't even feel such an attack if he was at that level.

Prime has tanked Galaxy ending Bombs, Universal destruction, The full force of the anti-matter verse which was multiversal actually beyond multiversal if I explain the full context of COIE, attacks from TDK and in all these hes never been KO’d unless you include his self BFR with his comic body as being KO’d the point is just cause you can make a character bleed doesn’t mean they are near their limit this isn’t real life it’s fiction and Prime had shown universal attacks don’t faze him that’s why he was even prepared to just blow up the univere he was sure he would survive and given the feats it’s true.

He never tanked the full force of the anti-matter wave nor did he tank universal destruction nor was he shown to be in the galaxy busting explosion only Cyborg Superman and Anti-Monitor were drawn in it, post scans if you can prove such a thing.

Him being prepared to blow up the universe means nothing if he can't actually do it, statements mean nothing if the feats never line up, this is the first time I'm hearing of a character with multiversal durability being harmed by Bart Allen or Connor Kent lol, and this isn't some outlier either this stuff happens consistently.

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Xandrew1017

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There’s nothing Jin can do to harm prime. He shit stomps both rounds

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#200  Edited By UltraPhoenix

@superprimetime:

stop rushing and take your time with your responses everything is all over the place smh.

I've been replying within the same time frame as you and quoting all your replies, I'll try to go even more in-depth if it bothers you that I'm all over the place.

This is nice but it doesn’t refute what I said, that is ultimately the similarities TDK talked about didn’t apply to Prime so what’s your point only further showing a distinction between what they wanted.

Prime and TDK both wanted a world for their own, this is the similarity between the two, TDK wanted to give him that world but Prime refused because he realized their worlds were actually different all along.

Once again this doesn’t refute my point which was two fold the first being that she was using connective energy a direct counter to crisis energy and secondly that she ultimately defeated TDK using the death sun so what is I said about who would win without the death sun being unknown is still a fact.

It is already known that Prime couldn't defeat TDK as he had already mentioned the two could not kill each other, so we know for certain Prime cannot actually beat him,

Your argument would’ve worked if Prime himself didn’t already state “maybe I really did die… or maybe it was a trick or something… I know it’s not. I’m really home.” Making your entire argument redundant. Prime already confirms he was alive on Prime Earth.

Prime himself had no recollection or idea of how he ended up back home, which is in direct contradiction of your statement that he BFR'd himself, if Prime cannot explain why then how can you?

What you said is complete rubbish, I said the comic stated he could take TDK’s power that much means he was going to do it right there and then.

And yet he didn't, he hasn't shown the feats to prove he can absorb that much energy.

Furthermeore your attempt at a debunk is flawed I said he could absorb the energy, I never said he could safely discharge it as a result the use of the cosmic tuning fork isn’t a debunk if it can absorb, store and fire energy safely when compared to prime, the same can be said about the Alfred Boxes.

What evidence is there that Prime cannot safely discharge the energy? Nowhere is it stated that Prime is unable to safely discharge the energy he absorbs, in fact it runs in direct contradiction to when Prime has absorbed energy before (albeit indirectly) via the Guardian and he was able to use this energy as Man Prime when he was destroying Earth 15.

Once again incorrect I was suggesting Prime can absorb magic and cosmic energies such as crisis or connective energy, never once did I say he could drain all types of energy which would then include solar energy, furthermore your reasoning is too simplistic since we have no clue how the solar energy is stored in kryptonians to begin with, whether the energy becomes mass that cant be absorbed or it remains in the body as heat whatever, and honestly the mass idea seems more likely since nukes have reduced Superman to looking like a zombie but solar energy literally beefs him up in size.

Kryptonians store solar energy in their cells, it's automatic when they come in contact with sunlight. Prime has never directly absorbed energy into himself so it stands to reason that he cannot do so to magic or other forms of energy.

Regardless the issue with your argument first steems from the idea I meant all energy, and secondly from the fact we have no clue how solar energy is stored in kryptonians and even the best energy manipulators have never drained a kryptonian as is seen with monarch.

We have no clue if Prime can directly absorb energy in the first place.

Once again did you read the full comic and how are obtaining these scans while skipping others?

Prime literally punched the shazam family reverting them to base while absorbing their power. That simple and the scan you provided isnt the one I was talking about bruh.

I did read through the comic, Shazam reverted back because he used the phrase "Shazam" which used to transform him back and forth between Shazam and his normal self. If Prime had punched and reverted him to his base form that wouldn't make sense, because Shazam has been punched by all sorts of people, even knocked out at times and hasn't been reverted.

I'll make this easier for you, please look directly at the centre and you'll see Shazam and Black Adam directly hitting Prime, they themselves are not and their transformation lightning strikes Prime knocking him out. They even said magic can harm Prime.

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He then proceeds to repeat the phrase Shazam and transforms back, which debunks the ideat that his power was absorbed. If Prime was KO'ed merely from the act of absorbing the powers of Shazam that would be quite a bad look, and certainly go agaisnt the idea that he can absorb multiversal levels of energy.

Post scans isn’t that impressive, I concede openly cause I have debating chivalry while you quietly concede but not mentioning arguments you got wrong and yet I’m not deterred.

Once again what your saying concerning shazam comic could only possibly happen if you didnt read the comic.

By all means explain to me how you missed Prime absorbing magic and proceeding right drain the Shazam family with each punch.

And then you wonder why I think you haven’t read the comic.

There is no indication the Prime drained any of their magic, in fact he was being hurt by their magical attacks and then later knocked out, just because he was surrounded by electricity does not mean their magic was drained, that could just as likely be the attack he just tanked.

Thats not how you use the word prefer nor is their indication he decided to use his preference.

He wanted to help Prime, if I'm helping someone and I'd prefer not to kill them by expending too much energy, I'd do exactly that, and I think a smart person like TDK would do the same.

As I already explained the term prefer is used to say that your not currently doing something according to your preference, if Im not driving my car and I’m driving someone else’s I’d prefer to drive mine, if I’m already in my car I already have my preference so I wont use the word prefer at all.

Prefer simply means you like one thing more than the others, it doesn't mean you must do one thing over the other, TDK knew Prime cannot kill him and vice versa. Therefore the smart decision is to not expend more energy. You haven't proved that TDK was already in the act of killing Prime then changed midway through. In fact, very early on in the fight TDK made his intentions of helping Prime very clear, he wanted to help him evolve. You cannot help someone if you try and kill them.

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Your saying why would he not do what he prefers and calling me an idiot but the English language doesn’t change for anyone, if he said he prefers to not waste energy it means in that instance that’s what he’s doing and it’s because of unavoidable circumstances much like I said if I’m in another car I’d prefer to be in my own but the circumstances are unavoidable I’m already in that other persons car, likewise if TDK is saying he’d prefer to not waste energy that’s what he’s doing and the situation doesn’t allow him to save it that’s basic english. If he was already doing his preference he wouldn’t have used the word prefer at all.

I am not calling you an idiot, I am saying TDK would be an idiot if he acted the way you're saying he did. If he said he prefers not to waste energy he's explaining his actions to Prime, and repeatedly telling him he'd like to help. Just answer this simple question, why would TDK expend more energy if he wants to help Prime?

What you said completely overlooked what I said while trying to pretend what I said never happened.

As I already stated characters in DC when they are thoroughly above another character it has always shown.

Ur orginal analogy of bullets on Superman failed, the bullets bounce of Superman, Orion no sells attacks and his one attack leaves superman shook, but when Prime and TDK fought it was TDK getting punched places, I’d the difference was as big as you had imagine TDK wouldn’t even move from the spot he’s standing in, they are relative and he was expending energy by his own admission indirectly threw the use of the term “prefer”. By your logic green arrow can punch darkseid several meters doing no damage to him, your logic is completely faulty.

I never stated WW is thorougly above Prime, she is however above as indicated by her performance and what is shown about the fight, she never fainted from the effort, she drained TDK as stated on panel, TDK was afraid of her which was also stated and she was smart enough to defeat him whereas Prime was not. Green Arrow can punch Darkseid as many times as he wants but he's not the type to actually make Darkseid bleed or knock him over, Darkseid would simply no sell his shots.

As I said it’s already confirmed he destroyed a universe leaving permanent damage to its space time and it was irreversible.

I might add that the dimensional barrier to the paradise dimension must be stronger then others if Prime can punch out of the Phantom Zone aka The Underworld a realm in the sphere of the gods and punch out of the speedforce.

Punching out of a realm is unquantifiable, there is no set defintion of how durable a realm or barrier is, when Prime destroyed Earth-15 he had destroyed only a planet, not the entire universe itself.

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He was also amped by the Guardian's energies during this point in time as well, and even then his beat feat was planetary, not universal. The guidebook even mentions how only billions died, but a universe would have more than a billion inhabitants.

Prime also didn't punch his way out of the speedforce, he was actually transported to another reality where he was imprisoned under red sunlight, which he eventually escaped from.

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So I don't understand how you don't consider the speedforce BFR legit? If you can keep someone imprisoned for years after BFR'ing them I think that should count as win.

Like I said Prime’s AP is lower then his durability which is comfortably in the multiversal ranges. And it’s PIS cause we see Prime fight insanely strong characters but not kill others, that’s just common sense, he can heat vision straight threw Superman but doesn’t fry Martian Manhunter or shot threw Wonder Woman, can kill more lanterns then Parrallax Hal did but doesn’t kill normal Hal, can kill guardians who also took a galaxy ending Bomb in Sinestro corp war but can’t kill small fries like Robin, you need only need use the a small amount of common sense to arrive at the conclusion DC won’t kill their characters that’s just bad for business and what you said never addressed the fact I said Prime only ever lost because of red Suns or BFR so your point doesn’t even address what I was mainly saying to begin with your just ducking the point.

You claimed his AP is universal yet his best showing was when he was amped and it was only planetary. He didn't HV through MMH because he went intangible, Parallax Hal was only really ever good in Zero Hour and Convergence, beyond that his blast was matched by Superman and he struggled with his younger self and even Kyle Rayner. Gaurdians themselves are also jobbers who've been killed by a blast that Guy Gardner tanked, their AP is greater than their durability and they weren't caught in the galaxy busting bomb either.

You only need to look closer at who these characters are and how they consistently perform to see that they're not as impressive as they might seem.

It would still be attributed to him regardless and their shockwaves also destroyed some earths/universes also.

Their shockwaves were never stated to destroy any universes, at best they could be considered Earths considering in Death Metal WW shrinks one of these Earths and hits TDK with it. These were 52 planets not universes, and even then they were only stated to vanish, we don't know exactly how that occured.

In reality the green lanterns may or may not know everything about kryptonian physiology and destroyed them anyways alternatively this is a writing inconsistency and the writer forgot which would make sense why they destroyed the kryptonite also, in reality it’s one of these two reasons but probably the second one, but ultimately it’s unknown.

I see so this was never consistent to begin with, but ultimately you may indeed be correct.

Yes in Post-Crisis Kryptonite can even harm regular humans due to the radiation it causes.

Incorrect you’d have to forget that he was in a red sun prison for literally a bit of post crisis, entirety of new 52 and most of rebirth. So yeah he was drained beyond belief and we already know from Sinestro Corp war the suit doesn’t charge him that fast real sunlight charges him way faster.

The suit in SCW was different from the suit he wore in Shazam, so you'd have to prove that the suit he wore in Shazam somehow charges him at a different rate. You also said he was absorbing magic so how can he be weakened if he can simply absorb more energy?

He even mentions how he'll be doing crazy things without his armour, meaning the armour does substitute for sunglight and it's what allows him to take on the League, once it was torn off he we see him get overwhelmed.

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And the teen Titans comic was an obvious outlier.

You can call it that if you want, but both showings go against your claim that he hasn't been knocked out, in fact when he showed up in Teen Titans he was transported back from Earth Prime after he had been restored and regained his powers.

Yes he did it’s not debatable.

It is debatebale because I specifically said "full force" of the anti-matter wave but your second scan debunks you because it says a weakened Anti-Monitor was flung away into a star, even prior to this Kal-L notes how Superboy wasn't killed by Anti-Monitor's blast because he was weakening.

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Yea he did it’s not debatable.

He was flung into the timestream as a result of the explosion and had to be resuced by the Time Trapper, this isn't tanking anything, even the universal explosion occured as a result of a chain explosion, it did not occur at once, and Prime is nowhere to been in the blast radius.

Correction Prime was hit in behind were the shield was formed and your acting like the section shown of cyborg Superman and anti-monitor is the entire blast radius when they barely take up any of the space.

Those are the only two people shown actually taking the blast, and we have good reason to believe that Prime didn't tank the blast because his pants aren't even ripped off or anything from the explosion, the artist deliberately showed Cyborg Superman taking the blast but not Prime, so unless there is a statement or image of him tanking the blast then you have no evidence, merely an assumption.

And of course on top of this Prime was destroying earths in his collision with TDK with just their shockwaves their actual AP at the epicentre of the shockwave would be much higher.

The earths vanished after the fight was over and Prime had fainted, we did see some planets being destroyed but those seemed to be different than the ones TDK created, regardless that's a far cry from universal AP.

Like I said they never even reached his KO threshold at full power so your point is redundant it’s like giving credit to a character doing 1 damage to a dude with 1 billion hp.

Or maybe Prime's KO threshold isn't impressive in the first place, he had every reason to be one shotting all the heroes he faced but he wasn't doing that, it's not that writers don't want their characters to lose immedieately it's that Prime's AP is not that good in the first place, if he was universal the JL wouldn't be fighting him head on or trying to restrain him.

You shouldve research my statements before saying stuff like he didn’t know you have to concede on this points, a better way of being skeptic would’ve been “I doubt” anyways chill with the insults.

I didn't insult you, you must've misread what I said, and I've once again had to show you how your scans are out of context.