Sundipped Superman vs Thanos

@death2heretics: You are ignoring the amp that is being specified. Superman goes from taking a little under 60 days to get from the edge of the universe and back to not even 10 seconds after a couple seconds/minutes in the sun. You are also ignoring the whole Big Bang thing. It’s kind of a big deal (no pun intended). The OP has a picture from that exact moment that I am referring to yet, you are dismissing it as an outlier even when that is the only time that Superman has ever dipped for that long. What is the point of a debate if all feats that even graze Thanos are immediately dismissed?

The Earth cannot survive in a black hole for even a second while Superman can do so with no effort. He has done that consistently. The Earth cannot survive a supernova while Superman has also done that anytime the occasion arrives. I have asked this before, but do you believe Flash to be hypersonic+ or MFTL? The general CV consensus is the latter yet Flash, even while trying, has more consistent hypersonic showings. High end feats are, by nature, less consistent that their regular showings.

@death2heretics: The instance of him pushing back War World is in Action Comics #782. The instance where Superman held his own against the entire Justice League and Orion was Action Comics #753 and Superman: The Man of Tomorrow #13. I would say that he would probably be more than just star level if he had that much sundipping. Being able to push back a planet even while it was pushing against him at FTL speeds would require thousands of times the force above regular planet pushing. This was with just minutes of sundipping. Note that I believe that Thanos wins based off feats, while I believe Superman can possibly win with scaling

@reikai: I’m not making up anything. I’m just saying that that based off the feats he has shown, the sun would amp him significantly more than just three times every fifteen minutes. The fact that he went from just planet level strength to being able to push back a planet while it’s pushing against him at FTL speeds is proof of an exponential increase in strength.

@dimlylitlantern: Let's just agree to disagree, at this point we're just repeating the same thing.

Yes, Flash IS MFTL. He has lots of feats to prove so and fights FTL Speedster ALL THE TIME, which means he has to be FTL to keep up with them, that's consistent. It's completely different. Compare Superman being Planetary, to being Universal. See the difference?

@dimlylitlantern: generally he’s viewed as a completely different Superman to rebirth Superman.

@kanyecosby: I can understand why you would say so, but the difference from Multi Planetary to Star is huge, a planet is nothing compared to a star.

That's why i think he's Star level with a 24 Hour amp. A case can be made for him being Multi-Star though.

Thanks, i'll check it out.

@death2heretics:

Let's just agree to disagree, at this point we're just repeating the same thing.

I am actively trying to understand the deviation in our thoughts though. I don't understand where you draw the line at acceptable Superman feat and outlier. You are insisting on using base Superman, but there are a lot of feats that are simply being disregarded.

Yes, Flash IS MFTL. He has lots of feats to prove so and fights FTL Speedster ALL THE TIME, which means he has to be FTL to keep up with them, that's consistent.

This is exactly what I am trying to convey. Flash has much much more hypersonic feats than MFTL feats. For example, during the Void Hound arc, the Justice League lose a brief round with the Crime Syndicate. Flash is running to the league to save them in his slipstream however. If he was even going light speed, it would not have taken him as long as it did. Flash also needed to back up a few blocks in order to build enough speed to hit Gorilla Grod because he, for what ever reason, forgot he can accelerate to light speed almost instantly. Flash gets tagged by people that aren't even close to his speed in almost every issue that he is in. You could chalk it up to him holding back, but not only can you also apply that to Superman's "outliers", Flash looks to be actively trying in a bunch of the instances you seem him in. Like, why did it take Wally 6 seconds to reach different corners of the world when he is MFTL? He couldn't have been holding back because he states that that is one of the fastest speeds he's moved before and his friends were in serious danger. I could keep listing feats like that and I would eventually come to a point where his low end "outliers" outweigh his supposedly consistent high end feats. Why is Superman being punished but not Flash?

Compare Superman being Planetary, to being Universal. See the difference?

I do see the difference. However, you keep Superman at solely planetary feats when he has a bunch that say otherwise. Superman after about 10 minutes in the Sun pushed back a planet being powered by the Big Bang. I keep bringing that up because that is the only feat he has after being in the Sun for that long.

How much do you think that Superman is being amped? I don't know how to understand your reasoning if all instances of the actual amp being implied aren't taken into consideration.

I don't know how else to describe the gravity of how impressive this feat is. Imperiex Prime was only shown to be seriously injured by a few things. One of those things was the Big Bang itself as that is what Imperiex does. He resets the universe every now and again to make a clean slate. The one of the other things that broke though his armor was Superman, Kismet (a universal Lord of Order that manipulates the very fabric of the universe) and Darkseid's Omega Beam combined. Sure the feat is questionable, but why enter a debate with two characters when you are intent on ignoring one of them? That's like entering a debate between Darkseid and Rune King Thor, but ignoring RKT completely because his feats don't aline with regular Thor.

@thehierarchy said:

Tanked attacks from Silver Surfer? Seems legit.

Not by your logic no, he didn't.

Because Thanos can turn the off just as easily, Thanos sometimes looks for a challenge such as Odin, or Tyrant and turns his shields off.

Funny, because he had the force field against Odin.

Travelspeed =/= combatspeed

Except when it comes to Silver Surfer?

1. Thanos powered himself down specifically to give the heroes a chance, that was the whole point so the IG is irrelevant.

Thanos only switched off his omniscience. Not other powers.

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2. No, he saw him coming and reacted to him.

Wrong again, Surfer missed his mark.

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Either it isn't (which would work out better) or Lobo loses to Wolverine and WW<Storm. You pick which one sounds more logical.

It is canon, despite some questionable fight.

Lobo fought Thanos evenly in that comic.

I don't have the scans, but if you would be so kind as to post the whole issue that would be great.

And get banned?

See below

Not impressed. Not in the least.

You mean surfing supernova's? Bathing in stars? Destroying planets easily and tanking planet busters to the face without an issue? Yeah, Superman clearly has a higher consistent durability.

Yes, the same. Superman does that on regular basis as well. GLs do that too.

Why would anyone be impressed by Surfer doing so?

Here I'll just quickly show why Thanos beats the shit out of Superman, if you wish to counter go ahead, maybe you even want to do a CaV.

Sure, let's see what you have here.

Superman almost kills Lobo in two attacks once he had enough.

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Also the scan you showed of Drax and Thanos, it was a robot. Not Thanos.

But as far as starbusters go, Mon-El rips a white dwarf star and bring it across the galaxy.

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Superman beats Mon while suffocating.

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First thing my friend, there is nothing to suggest cancerverse characters are even as powerful as regular 616 characters much less more powerful. Also Thanos had the ability to kill those undead characters as he was Avatar of Death.

Without being the avatar of death, Thanos couldn't beat the same Revengers team AFTER hours of fight.

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Also that wasn't Ego in its entirety. But you know what, let's see how Superman does against a living, cannibal planet who was eating the whole sun.

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First of all my friend, the black hole didn't have a diameter of two lightyears. It drew everything within two lightyears and the black hole was stated as miniature.

And Thanos teleported away and the black hole still messed him up.

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I will do you better than that though, Superman waltzes through Darkseid's black hole which cracked the entire universe and actually destroyed the Milestone universe without any issue.

It was first stated that the black hole was spreading cracks throughout the universe. Then it swallowed the entire multiverse

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Flashes had to run faster than light to reach Darkseid.

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Yet, Superman just waltzed through the black hole like nothing.

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Heck, it destroyed the entire Milestone universe.

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Also Galactus didn't destroy a galaxy, just a few solar systems.

Superman tanks a point blank blast which destroys the whole universe, blows a hole in the multiverse and starts to destroy countless realities.

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Also Superman doesn't needs to overpower Thanos shield. He can just analyze it and break it like he did to Brainiac's shield.

Superman analyzed Brainiac's force field and broke it on its weakest point.

Thisis notable because even a planet sized, FTL monster couldn't break it at its weakest point.

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And neither could Pulsar Stargrave, a literal neutron star.

And before you start, its the same force field which Brainiac uses.

Also if you want raw durability feats, below you go. Superman no sells attacks from Nebula Man, a living universe.

No sells a nebula sized sun eater who has literally destroyed galaxies.

So spare me the Thanos wank. As I said, Thanos will have difficulties with Superman at normal level, forget about sundipped state.

Blockbusters of marvel universe.

Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Alternate Universes 2005

@death2heretics said:

Thanos tanks a Black Hole that was sucking everything within 2 light years. Later we see all Thanos has is minor scratches and he's fine.

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Superman no sells a black hole which destroyed an entire universe.

It was first stated that the black hole was spreading cracks throughout the universe. Then it swallowed the entire multiverse

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Flashes had to run faster than light to reach Darkseid.

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Yet, Superman just waltzed through the black hole like nothing.

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Heck, it destroyed the entire Milestone universe.

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Here, he no-sells an exploding gas giant.

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Superman no sells Krypton exploding.

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Does it under a red sun. Gets flung across phantom zone and in the last panel he is attacked by Eradicator.

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And krypton dwarfed Jupiter.

Here, Thanos prior to any permanent amps/upgrades, no sells a planetary explosion. This is CLASSIC Thanos meaning he isn't as powerful as current Thanos. And i want to point out, that the panel before that, showed Classic Drax ripping a star. Yet he failed to even tickle Thanos, let that sink in.

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These two are from two different comics. First is a robot from Iron Man 55. Second is from Captain Marvel 43 where Captain Mar-Vell, a 40 tonner koed Drax.

Full scene below:

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He has feats more impressive than that, but im just comparing Supes feats vs Thanos' ...

Outmuscle really small black holes, sure.

Come on, we all know him "pushing back a universe class explosion" is an outlier. There's no need to even mention that feat.

All of those are outliers, clearly. Unless you really think Superman has universal punches which would mean Sun dipped Superman is Multiversal, which is ridiculous.

I would consider Imperiex Prime a Skyfather or even above.

Guess what? It's not consistent for Superman, Thanos on the other hand is consistently durable enough to shrug off attacks from Skyfathers. "Consistent" being the keyword.

Superman can tank the full force of the matter terminating Omega Sanction and multi-solar system busting attacks in his base form. I am thus concluding that Superman can survive a few attacks from Thanos.

Yet, he gets knocked out by Planetary/Moon level explosions, weird huh?

Yes, he can survive a few attacks from Thanos. That is because Thanos will have fun using Superman as a punching bag.

Just a few seconds was enough to grant Superman the power to create his own boomtube and fly from the Sun to the edge of the universe in a few seconds. Superman in his base form is also crazy fast. He can react to light speed ships and disarm them completely by destroying their engines from the inside, he can fly from the edge of the universe and back to Earth, while weakened, in 60 days while going though numerous black holes, he can react to lasersgoing near light speed, he can react and perceive within femtoseconds and attoseconds, and move between galaxies in a few seconds-minutes-hours. Multiplying that by the degree the thread is requesting is like asking for Thanos to be frozen in time.

All of them are travel speed, and wont matter in battle unless Superman bullrushes him from across the planet, which is highly unlikely to happen, given how Thanos has reacted to something similar. You wanna know who can replicate those feats? Surfer. Yeah, the guy that is Thanos' punching bag.

Superman can resist MMH's telepathy and J'onn is a better telepath than Thanos based on some of what J'onn has done. Superman also has Torquasm Vo, that makes him far less susceptible to telepathic attacks. If this was regular Superman, Thanos could likely bludgeon him, but this is Superman with a massive amp.

Fair enough, Thanos vs MMH's TP is debatable, though im not focusing on that today, since Thanos doesn't need TP to beat the crap out of Supes, plus i have other debates to continue, so i'll just leave it at that.

Right, it doesn't matter what feats Superman has, he has to be held to arbitrary rules that he is planetary.

@motifian said:

@thehierarchy said:

2. No, he saw him coming and reacted to him.

Wrong again, Surfer missed his mark.

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It was later indicated Thanos "saw it coming"...due to omniscience via the Time Stone; He says "...the very instant I gained possession of these marvels the time gem revealed to me...", then relays what he foresaw up until losing the Infinity Gauntlet.

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So it can be said he reacted to Silver Surfer...after he had literally the ENTIRE time span of what happened between three whole issues to prepare for it( really most of four, considering Silver Surfer attempted it toward the end of the fourth).

@motifian: I already debated about this, you can post all the outliers you want, it won't change anything. I still stand by my point.

@mrstranger: That's what I indicated as the later retcon.

@death2heretics: Right, everything Superman does is outlier if it doesn't fits your view.

Should I discard all of the Thanos feats you posted as outliers too?

@motifian:

Right, everything Superman does is outlier if it doesn't fits your view.

Uh...

Superman no sells a black hole which destroyed an entire universe.

Then it swallowed the entire multiverse

Heck, it destroyed the entire Milestone universe.

Totally not an outlier, Superman is clearly universal.

@motifian: Ah, okay.

Still worth posting the scans in any case, as it often gets neglected just how much of a 'heads up' Thanos was working with there.

@death2heretics: And Thanos is clearly able to take on Galactus or Odin.

See how that works?

@mrstranger: Not to mention he had been amped to the point he casually broke Captain America shield.

Also had time gem to stop time.

But shh, Thanos is clearly FTL and can totally react to FTL bullrushing from Silver Surfer.

@motifian: 1. Thanos didn't "take on" Galactus.

2. What? It's consistent for him, all he did was tank Odin's attacks, just like he did with Kosmos, blasts that destroyed Heralds, Hits from bloodlusted Power-Gem Thor, taking a blast from Omega etc.

@death2heretics:

All outliers man. Just outliers.

@motifian: Yep.

I was going to reply to people here, but it seems as though the highballing and lowballing is severely getting out of hand, I'll take my distance as everyone should.

@thehierarchy: And here I was waiting for all the star level feats Thanos has by scaling to other characters.

@motifian: I believe you were here waiting to post more outliers for Superman, which makes sense as it's the only argument that can be made for Superman here.

I will not respond here again, I've grown sick if it.

@thehierarchy: And you posted all those outliers for Thanos.

Good job.

@motifian: clearly you don’t understand the concept of consistency

Thanos easy.

@kingant27: How is Thanos winning easily? Even if we just go on the few feats that 10 minute dip Superman has, it outweighs Thanos. The thread is bringing Superman to a level that he has never been at before. How is Thanos winning easily? Even if you take all of Superman's feats and multiply them by 5, which is far less than the actual amp a sundip gives him, Thanos starts to have some difficulties. Regular Superman tanked the shockwave of a supernova that was 50x larger than on of the biggest supernovas ever recorded. Multiplying that by 5 (should be much more) gives you a feat 250x the size of one of the largest supernovas ever.

@dimlylitlantern: lol no, Thanos has matched PF Thane, De-powered Tyrant, Odin, Power gem Thor, this Superman is nothing compared his feats are way above Herald level characters, Supes is barely physically planetary, Thanos biggest assets other than his mind, is his durability which Supes is not on that level.

Thanos easy, pimp hands for the win.

@kingant27:

lol no, Thanos has matched PF Thane, De-powered Tyrant, Odin, Power gem Thor, this Superman is nothing compared his feats are way above Herald level characters,

PF Thane doesn't understand how to use the PF as stated by Thanos himself. Most of those other characters, to my knowledge, aren't physically strong enough to push back a universal explosion. That is only after 10 or so minutes, 24 hours would have Thanos being overpowered.

Supes is barely physically planetary

Superman has lifted the Earth for 5 days while weakened, in a weaker iteration, and only broke one bead of sweat. Superman has also pulled the Earth out of the pull of a full-grown Sun-eater. He has feats that even transcend that.

Thanos biggest assets other than his mind

Superman is very smart and has good telepathic resistance which is only amped after being in the Sun for so long.

Thanos easy, pimp hands for the win.

Again, that hardly seems to be the case.

@dimlylitlantern: Just want to point out, it was never stated a sun dip amps his TP resistance, it was shown it amps his stats, so don't know where you got that.

@dimlylitlantern: Before he had the PF he was extremely powerful, heck even an inexperienced Cyclops was well above Thor level.

Lol your scaling doesn’t equate to anything I’m afraid, bearing in mind Skyfather tier characters have shown well above Galaxy busting.

Hulk has dealt with the Hulk, enhanced Thor versions, etc all who would Atleast be Clark’s level+.

A hypothetical Supes who can’t put down Thanos as he has tanked far worse, is smarter, has TP can BFR, and quite frankly superior in every way other than speed which he’s dealt with before.

Thanos easy still.

@death2heretics: That was more of an inference, but why would it not? Superman gets his mental resistance from his Kryptonian powers. If being in the Sun amps his powers such as his speed, strength, healing factor, and heat vision, why would his mental fortitude not be amped as well?

Thanos still pimpsmacks. Superman will be worn out by all the whanking

@death2heretics said:

@kanyecosby: I can understand why you would say so, but the difference from Multi Planetary to Star is huge, a planet is nothing compared to a star.

That's why i think he's Star level with a 24 Hour amp. A case can be made for him being Multi-Star though.

Thanks, i'll check it out.

Superman could likely have star level strength. Or star level. Superman shook the star system in his fight against Darkseid where he was possibly Sun amped. But that was off panel.

That aside. There is no way to know for sure, how strong Superman will be, like most other things, we can only speculate.The thing is most of the Supermans abilities should get amped being in the Sun. Like Strength, Speed and Durability. But what we don't know is how much. We can only base our arguments on the stuff we have seen him with the Sun amps. Like Holding his own against the league, which is okay but he ultimately got pushed back into a corner with the help of Orion. Again Thanos can give the Justice League trouble himself at the very least. We can not speculate anything that he will be doing this or that possibly, we can not base our arguments on speculations that are not backed up by proof. Those are just subjective matters. As for debating this with feats, We would have to use outlier feats for Superman then it is debatable which also makes Superman a skyfather level being. If someone thinks Superman is a skyfather level being, even though he gets beat up and hurt by a lot of characters then its their opinion. Nothing else. Its just an opinion. If Superman is a skyfather level being then Wonder Woman is low skyfather level , Supergirl is a high team buster, Krypto is a herald and so on.

@kingant27:

A galaxy isn’t a universe. Can Thanos push back a universe class explosion as well as a planet? If he can’t do that, Superman is stronger than him.

Neither Hulk or Thor are not as strong as sundipped Superman. It is debatable if either of them are as strong as regular Superman.

What feat has Thanos achieved that implies that he can beat Superman at this level?

@empressofdread: I agree, i was mainly arguing Base Superman vs Thanos, since that is what the other user brought up. Sun dip amp got mixed in the debate later on.

@empressofdread: That’s why I said that Thanos wins by feats, and Superman could possibly win by scaling.

@20damon: I honestly do not understand how Thanos is prevailing here. He already has a feat that eclipses all of Thanos’ physical feats in his sun dipped form. This isn’t regular Superman.

@dimlylitlantern: Odin has Universal feats, Odin couldn’t put down Thanos, also Supes doesn’t have Universal durability lol.

Power gem Thor is stronger than sun dipped Supes, power gem Champion couldn’t do anything to Thanos, Supes isn’t stronger.

A guess level featless character, hmm, compared to a Skyfather level+ being, stronger than most characters bar Absracts etc, more durable than him, has disintegration beams, energy manipulation, TP, easy win no difference really to him fighting normal Supes as his strength/speed increase still won’t pit him above Thanos and he still has way more ways to beat him.

I -LOVE- this thread!

Superman .His feats is more impressive than Thanos

@kingant27:

Odin has Universal feats, Odin couldn’t put down Thanos, also Supes doesn’t have Universal durability lol.

What universal feats does Odin have? Even then, scaling Thanos off of attacks like that isn’t the most reliable thing. Thor has tanked Odin’s blast before.

Superman has tanked a universe busting black hole before. However, even I would consider that an outlier.

Power gem Thor is stronger than sun dipped Supes, power gem Champion couldn’t do anything to Thanos, Supes isn’t stronger.

How are you getting that Power Gem Thor is stronger than sun-dipped Superman? What feat does he have?

more durable than him

Based on what? This is a 24 hour dip.

has disintegration beams

Superman has tanked that numerous times before.

energy manipulation

Superman has fought that too.

TP

Superman has fought against this numerous times, even against characters with telepathy similar or even greater than Thanos' like MMH and Dominus. Torquasm Vo is also a thing. That was only base Superman

easy win no difference really to him fighting normal Supes as his strength/speed increase still won’t pit him above Thanos and he still has way more ways to beat him.

You say this, yet you seem to be ignoring the feat that I am talking about. Is it just law for Superman to never be stronger than Thanos under any circumstances regardless of the amp?

If you can list one feat that Thanos has that entails him showcasing strength on a universal scale, I would believe that Thanos can survive against Superman at this level. Even then, these feats could also be outliers as this thread likes to point out. Then you would have to take into account that a Superman that dipped for 24 hours is much much stronger than the one that pushed back that War World.

He breaks his hands punching thanos.

@supergoku17: This is Superman amped by, like, over a thousand fold. People far weaker than that have harmed Thanos. Thor has hurt Thanos before. Thor isn't even close to being 2x stronger than Superman. It is debatable if he is even stronger in the first place.