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#1 Edited by ONE_GOD (250 posts) - - Show Bio

ROUND 1: IG Thanos

ROUND 2: Battler Ushiromiya

ROUND 3: Beyonder (Pre-Retcon)

ROUND 4: The Thought Robot

ROUND 5: The Living Tribunal

ROUND 6: Nyarlathotep (Demonbane)

ROUND 7: Akuto Sai

ROUND 8: Elder God Demonbane

ROUND 9: Featherine Augustus Aurora

ROUND 10: The-One-Above-All

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#2 Edited by EzraArcher (1164 posts) - - Show Bio

Doesn't beat anyone

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#3 Posted by BlackWizzard17 (1088 posts) - - Show Bio

Why is beyonder so low?

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#4 Posted by TheTruthIII (3315 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by JOVIOLMA (6619 posts) - - Show Bio

Lmao, stops at One.

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#6 Posted by EcoBlitz (5089 posts) - - Show Bio

Lmao doesn’t get past 1

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#7 Posted by ovy7 (3074 posts) - - Show Bio

Someone hates Gurren Lagann...

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#8 Posted by geeman2 (2006 posts) - - Show Bio

who

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#9 Edited by zgtfreak (2055 posts) - - Show Bio

Rounds are off... It should be...

Round 1: Nyarlathotep

Round 2: IG Thanos

Round 3: Elder God Demonbane

Round 4: Thought Robot

Round 5: Ushiromiya Battler (assuming you are using Endless/Golden Sorcerer Battler)

Round 6: The Living Tribunal

Round 7: Non omnipotent TOAA and Ushiromiya Battler (assuming EoS Game Master)

Round 8: Pre-recton Beyonder

Round 9: Featherine Augustus Aurora

Have no idea who Akuto Sai is, so I'm excluding him.

SSTGL doesn't beat any of them btw.

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#10 Posted by guleddos (648 posts) - - Show Bio

He beats The Thought Robot thats about it

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#11 Posted by GrandTOAA (934 posts) - - Show Bio

@guleddos: He most certainly doesn't not beat anyone

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#12 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

He beats Demonbane Nyarlathotep at least since Demonbane's verse is only baseline Multiversal to scale for. Probably stalemates Thought Robot since the two characters transcend on M-Theory. Not sure about IG Thanos since everyone is on the gripes of it being Multiversal or Universal so I stay from that for now.

Akuto Sai's best feat from what I hear was creating Infinite Universes and throwing it at someone. Which isn't really impressive so he probably gets his ass kicked, though I don't read into the series. Other than that, the best he's got is being empowered by LOI who is only wanked by an unreliable human character who doesn't seem to know he/she is talking about on the size of the Cosmology. There's also the issue that the Universes there don't all seem to be infinite in size. I would inquire some more feats from the character.

Gets crushed by everyone else.

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#13 Edited by zgtfreak (2055 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: STTGL runs off M-Theory? I thought that was VS Battles wank. Guess they were right for once...

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Akuto_Sai Never mind... The wank continues...

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#14 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak:

WOG confirmed that STTGL and Anti-Spiral were talking 11 Spatio-Temporal Dimensional Universes. They're equal or a little below the Monitors by comparison. The problem is that the author used the word UNIVERSE not Multiverse. I don't know what he means by 11 Dimensional Universe because it sounds more like he is using planck length dimensions than actual Megaversal dimensions. You know, the theory that a single universe is on itself already 11 Dimensional because all of its particles are? But what the hell right? Let's just be a little charitable.

I already dealt with the people who hype up Demon King Daimou on this forum. The hype behind the verse is that there is this one unverifiable hyperbolic statement about how large the cosmology is by one of the human scientists who don't seem to know what they're really talking about, with some contradictions and talk more about theory. Which makes them look super-omega Infinite-D. The problem is that the characters don't really have a lot of good feats beyond baseline Multiversal and seems to be just a statement wank.

Personally, to me, Cosmic Characters are better reliable sources on how large a Multiverse is. Rather than random humans, just because a human says 'OMG INFINITE-D' that doesn't prove the setting is like that. Otherwise our real life universe is Infinite-D just because there are some theories. When Featherine or Living Tribunal says there are Infinite Dimensions, that's more reliable.

You know, how like Gan from Dark Tower mostly relies on In-Universe Wank.

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#15 Posted by zgtfreak (2055 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Yeah, that does seem a little fishy, but I'll give STTGL the benefit of the doubt.

As for DKD, I'd believe a human if they have proven themselves to be extremely knowledgeable on the subject, and of course if their statement is not contradicted. However I'll refrain fully from an opinion since I know very little of DKD.

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#16 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Seriously, if you look at the page of LOI (who empowers Akuto)

This is the only thing justifying those two at that tier.

Rejecting all but the Law of Identity would leave yourself facing the one Law of Identity all alone. That would be one origin.

It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else’s dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing that one Law of Identity.

It's just some character talking about the possibility of infinitely chained world of dreamers which sounds like it's Infinite Dimensional maybe? It's all "It was possible" and "even IF" like how much of this am I supposed to take seriously again?

But okay, let's ASSUME, this is true. it would be just a Universe in Universe in Universe chain as it would be described. And every level is based upon the medium of a DREAM.

The problem with an Infinite Dimensional Structures like this when compared to those in Marvel and DC would be, is that it would only matter depending on the level you are on.

Let me give an example, Roland from Dark Tower is just a normal street level human cowboy. However, he literally destroys infinite levels of universes and megaverses whenever he steps on the sand on whatever level of the Dark Tower he is. Because in the Dark Tower, every level has infinite universes inside one of its particles in a piece of grass. If you put BATMAN inside the Dark Tower, he literally destroys the infinite universes below the level he is on as well. It's the TOWER making YOU Multiversal, not you.

Thing is, it's not because Roland is Multiversal, it's because the Dark Tower is an abstract construct and it makes ANYONE Multiversal to the level below where you are at. Does that mean Roland is Multiversal? No.

Another example, Superman became Universal+ when he was in New Genesis because normal universes look like bubbles to New Genesis and what made Superman bigger was the BOOM TUBES that transports you there. Does that mean Superman is Universe level now or is it only that way because of the system?

This is the same thing about the feat Lucifer burning Destiny's Book which has been retconned by Gaiman and Morrison to contain DC's Multiverse but you have no idea if normal humans can destroy it with just a lighter. Maybe Batman can destroy it. So if Batman burns Destiny's book with a lighter is Batman Omniversal now?

Or how about this. Remember when 616 Franklin Richards created a Pocket Dimension Universe in his hand that has HUMANS in it, but he LOOKS Universal to the beings inside it by perspective. So what is the baseline for Universal? So is base Franklin Richards Universe level now? Is that a Universe level feat or a Pocket Dimension feat? And how do we know that a Universe in like Umineko or DC is just to be equalled to a pocket universe that Frankin created that had mini humans in it?

Even Umineko has this same problem. Featherine was tearing apart Infinite-D Megaversal books but those books only have Book level durability to the perspective of the realm where she is. You have no idea if people like Kinzo or any normal human can probably do the same. If we put Batman in the City of Books, can he rip apart a book there like Featherine did?

Demon King Daimou is not the only one with this issue, but it suffers the most because there are normal normal street level humans dreaming a universe in their head that repeats ad infinitium. Above and below. So what now? But if you put Beyonder in any of those levels and hierarchies, he can kill any human, it's only a matter of where and what level we put Beyonder in but Beyonder is not inside that Cosmology so it MATTERS MORE on where it takes place.

WHERE is the Cosmology Equalization for comparison? I don't know.

This is the problem with MULTIVERSAL DEBATES that only few like myself and Trex from spacebattles notices. If a Cosmology relies on metaphorical narratives to explain itself like DC, Umineko, Dark Tower and Demon King Daimou (a problem that Marvel doesn't have as much). WHICH is the baseline world that we agree upon?

I don't know what the hell. WE HAVE NO BASELINE STANDARD FOR WHAT IS THE BENCHMARK TO COMPARE A UNIVERSE TO SCALE FOR BETWEEN TWO FICTIONAL SETTINGS.

I don't get it. Because of this dilemma, I almost decided to quit Multiversal debates many times.

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#17 Edited by zgtfreak (2055 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Yeah, it seems unlikely to me to be infinite-D.

Let me give an example, Roland from Dark Tower is just a normal street level human cowboy. However, he literally destroys infinite levels of universes and megaverses whenever he steps on the sand on whatever level of the Dark Tower he is. Because in the Dark Tower, every level has infinite universes inside one of its particles in a piece of grass.

Thing is, it's not because Roland is Multiversal, it's because the Dark Tower is an abstract construct and it makes ANYONE Multiversal to the level below where you are at. Does that mean Roland is Multiversal? No.

Well, in debates I would call that specific version of Roland multiversal, but since it is an amp, I would acknowledge that under normal circumstances he is street level.

Or how about this. Remember when 616 Franklin Richards created a Pocket Dimension Universe in his hand that has HUMANS in it, but he LOOKS Universal to the beings inside it by perspective. So what is the baseline for Universal? So is Franklin Richards Universe level now? Is that a Universe level feat or a Pocket Dimension feat? And how do we know that a Universe in like Umineko or DC is just to be equalled to a pocket universe that Frankin created that had mini humans in it?

WHERE is the Cosmology Equalization for comparison? I don't know.

This is the problem with Infinite Dimensional Structures that rely on metaphorical narratives to explain itself like DC, Umineko, Dark Tower and Demon King Daimou (a problem that Marvel doesn't have). WHICH is the baseline world that we agree upon?

That's the thing... There can never be a standard; for there to be one is basically doing what VS Battles does with cross-verse rules and dimensional tierring (which is a load of crap). We have to examine things like this case by case. In the case of Franklin, I would consider it a mere pocket dimension feat since it's basically the same as making a mini-replica of a real universe (unless something proves otherwise).

I notice too when it comes to metaphorical cosmologies such as Umineko, Nasuverse, Dark Tower, ect is that each one of their verse's higher-dimensions/overall cosmology are explained much differently since they are completely unique to each other, which makes them much harder to compare to each other as opposed to Marvel's metaverse>megaverse>multiverse cosmology, as their very nature is less simplistic, more varying, and overall just much different and harder to compare to each other. For the most part, I'd just say their cosmologies are equal unless we see a really big and obvious difference that really shows the power gap between the two cosmologies. This helps when comparing two cosmologies that are on the same level in terms of dimensionality, but are explained completely differently, but also seem to be on the same general power level; it's just easier to assume they are equal unless there is an obvious difference.

For instance (going off topic a bit), I plan to make a 3v1 non amped Battler, Beatrice, and Ange vs CCC Gilgamesh thread in the future. All four of these characters are on the same dimensional level (8-D to possibly 9-D for both sides), however it's impossible to determine/fully compare which 8-D/9-D from both verses are superior, as they are both explained completely differently; all we know is that the higher dimensions of both verses are above lower power wise. Umineko goes in-depth with the multiverses and megaverses their dimensions contain, and that lower dimensions are mere pieces on a game board/fiction. Nasuverse/Fate/Extra CCC has only explained that around 5-D or so, you transcend space-time (BB), a higher dimensional construct you cannot damage (6-D Avalon), and that lower-dimensional beings can't exist in the higher dimensions of the Moon Cell, and that Gilgamesh exist in higher dimensions due to his power level (up to 8-D to possibly 9-D); combine this with CCC Gil swatting away an (at least) megaversal to metaversal reality, then I think this shows that dimensional tierring exist within the verse. But as you can see, both cosmologies are explained completely differently, and Umineko's is explained in-depth while CCC's is less so, making it impossible to compare since CCC's is too vague to argue which dimensions are superior between it and Umineko. So what do we do? I'd say it's just better to assume they are equal in terms of dimensional power since there is no definitive answer/no obvious power gap. (The reason for a 3v1 is due to Gilgamesh's hundreds to possibly thousands of NPs/abilities which are way too broke for a 1v1 against these characters, not because of power differences or anything.)

What I'm saying basically is that simplicity works best at times if it's too hard to compare two different cosmologies.

When it comes to Umineko vs DKD however, it seems pretty clear that DKD seems to be presented as much weaker in terms of cosmology, even if we hypothetically count DKD as being infinite-D, therefore I would say Umineko dimensions>>>DKD.

Probably not fully done with editing this comment, just gonna take a break for a min, so there may be some missing points I'm trying to make.

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#18 Posted by CaoCao (1505 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at one

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#19 Posted by terry2012 (9821 posts) - - Show Bio