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#1 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

  • Night King and Viserion (2)
  • Hancock (3)

@watcher5000:

  • Speed O' Sound Sonic (3)
  • CW Reverse Flash (2)

Rules

  • Random Encounters
  • Standard Gear (As in gear used more than once and gear the character has access to!)
  • Canon versions of said character. Versions specified are listed. Marvel is 616, whole DC is Post Crisis and Rebirth unless stated specifically New 52 which then is New 52 and Rebirth.
  • Manga have Manga and Anime feats.
  • Shows/Movies have comics, and game feats to said movie/show version.
  • Games have feats from Shows, Manga, Comics of said Game Franchise. Game characters special power ups are only allowed if its consistent through more than one game. Same for gear.
  • Mind Reading and Illusions are not limited. Applies to Soul abilities as well.
  • No BFR.
  • No Time Manipulation.

Battlefield

Start 100 feet from the middle.

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#2 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
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#4 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

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Reverse flash

Backstory

Eobard Thawne comes from the year 2151 and was a well known/ respected genius.He for a while idolized and wanted to be the flash so he recreated the accident that created him and it worked.But after coming to the past he found out he could never be the flash no matter how much he wanted to be. Because of that he became his reverse, the more flash was loved and respected the more he "had" to take from him.Thus he became the reverse flash.

Speed

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1.Outraces flash

2.Creates a speed mirage

3.Pushes eddie out of the way of the bullet and dodges it himself

4.Outraces the flash again

5.Blitzes the legends

6.Stomps flash

7.Blitzes police officers before they can pull their trigger

Strength

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1.Knocks out Atom and Steel

2.Is able to send Firestorm flying across central city by spinning his arm

3.Punches black flash hard enough that he is sent flying at least 20 meters.

4.Throws the flash a pretty far distance with one arm.

Durability

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1.Took a punch from the atom

2.Is blasted by firestorm and despite falling of the Star Labs building gets up a second later with a smile on his face

3.Takes a blast from firestorm again.

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Speed O' Sound Sonic was born in a ninja village where is practiced ninja techniques since his earliest days of childhood.He is also the sole survivor of the 44th graduation class, "The End", from that village.

For this I will pretty much just focus on Speed O Sound Sonic's speed and gear, since really that is all that I think matters at this point.

Speed

In speed Sonic is causally FTE in combat and he has many feats to back this up.

Here he moves so fast that Mad John thinks he hit him but he actually punches a steel ball

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He easily blitzes the paradisers cutting off their heads, he moving so fast that none of them can see him at all.

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Hammerhead says he can't see Sonic because of his speed.

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He is able to move so fast that Genos is completely unable to track his movements, and has to try to resort to blowing up the area.He was at the same time creating four independently moving afterimages.

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What makes this even more impressive is that earlier in this same fight, both were moving faster than eye to Fubuki.So Sonic is FTE to people who are FTE.

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Sonic then shows he can move even faster as he makes ten afterimages

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Blitzes and dodges all of Deap Sea King's attacks

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Gear

He carries Kunais

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exploding shurikens

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Homing exploding shurikens

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This is also a speed feat, since he is shown having no trouble keeping up with Tatsumaki

Smoke screen shurikens

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And as already shown he carries a sword.

Gameplan

My plan is simple, from the start of the fight Sonic will use his smoke screen shurikens blinding your team completely.Before your team gets a chance to do anything Sonic and Reverse Flash will use that opportunity to kill Night King and Viserion, leaving Hancock to have to fend for himself.Now I'd like to think Sonic is able to kill Hancock via decapitation, seeing as how his only piercing resistance feats involve bullets as I recall. But even if that's not the case my team should be able to win due to Reverse Flash phasing and killing him like this

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So in short

  • My team should be much faster than your team allowing for them to do what I've stated
  • Once the battle starts everyone but hancock will be taken out
  • After that my team is free to focus their efforts on him and take him out
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#5 Edited by deactivated-5b466be4b5981 (3660 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper said:

@sirfizzwhizz: Wait, weren't there other guys too?

It was only us, SFW and Juiceboks(who never responded when asked for his team).

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#7 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000:

Hancock:

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He woke up in a hospital bed with a fractured skull somewhere in the late 1920's, with no memory of who he is, what happened to him or even what his name is. The nurse tried to put a needle through his arm, and the needle just broke against his skin. His skull healed shortly after that. He took the name Hancock after the nurse asked him for his "John Hancock" (signature). As the years passed, Hancock turned to a homeless alcoholic bum living in a trailer off the coast of LA, performing acts of very questionable heroism on occasion. A public relations specialist named Ray Embrey, whose life Hancock saved from a train crash, decides to pay him back by turning him from a bum who does more harm than good into a true hero.

Powers and abilities:

  1. Flight.
  2. Super-speed (hypersonic, both in travel and reaction speed).
  3. Super-strength (~100 tons).
  4. Super-durability against all types of damage.

The Night King and Viserion:

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Viserion is the dragon, and the Night King is the dude who rides him. The Night King is a White Walker, if you watch "Game of Thrones" you know what that means, if you don't then I won't start explaining it because that would just require walls of text that aren't too crucial for this battle, lol. The main background knowledge you need to know about them is that the Night King is a White Walker (super freaky ice-demon with special powers) and Viserion is an undead dragon.

Powers and abilities (The Night King):

  1. Superhuman physical stats.
  2. Invulnerability to most types of damage.
  3. Necromancy.
  4. Weather manipulation.
  5. Small-scale earth manipulation.
  6. Greensight (don't ask, irrelevant here).
  7. Can shatter standard solid materials such as steel on touch.
  8. His weapon is magical and has the same effect that is mentioned above, as well as enhanced piercing ability.

Powers and abilities (Viserion):

  1. Flight (duh).
  2. Physical traits proportional to his size.
  3. Fire-breath.
  4. Immunity to pain.*
  5. Invulnerability to most types of damage.*

*these abilities are derived from the fact that he is undead. He didn't have them when he was still alive.

Counters + strategy:

Well, first of all, my first and foremost advantage is aerial superiority. My team can stay airborne and yours will have little to nothing to do about it. Your team can't touch mine as long as they're up in the air.

My plan is simple, from the start of the fight Sonic will use his smoke screen shurikens blinding your team completely.Before your team gets a chance to do anything Sonic and Reverse Flash will use that opportunity to kill Night King and Viserion, leaving Hancock to have to fend for himself.

Well, that won't work. The first thing my team will do is fly up in the air, which will bring them out of the reach of smoke. Your team relying on the smoke to take effect before engaging will be their undoing, since the smoke won't take effect in the first place. Also, the dense forest will make it so our teams have no eye contact as the fight begins. Your team won't know where to find mine which will extend my team's window of opportunity to take flight and that makes your plan effectively useless. You'll see speed feats for Hancock soon enough, but here's one for Viserion, to show you he's also extremely fast and will be able to take wing quick enough before your team attacks:

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Sonic and Reverse Flash will use that opportunity to kill Night King and Viserion

They won't have that opportunity seeing as the smoke bombs will fail, but even if they did I don't see how they're gonna kill them. Viserion is a wight (undead), and wights cannot be killed by normal physical means. For example, here's a wight that was cut straight in half through the torso keeps on crawling toward the Hound like nothing happened:

It's a human wight and not a dragon, true, but it's really the same idea. Both were killed and resurrected by the Night King.
It's a human wight and not a dragon, true, but it's really the same idea. Both were killed and resurrected by the Night King.

So basically, even if your team can get to Viserion before he launches himself up in the air, they won't be able to kill him. Physical damage can't do anything to him and they don't have any magical means to do the work. As long as Viserion is still in play, the Night King who is seated on Viserion's back can't be harmed either.

Now, with your team on the ground and mine safely in the air, Viserion will light up the whole battlefield on fire, which will spread quickly thanks to the dense woodland. The whole island will be a death-trap.

I'll go ahead and guess that you'll have something up your sleeve against the fire, but that's not a problem. My team has a lot more they bring to the table. First of all, Hancock should be able to beat Sonic quite easily. As far as you have shown, Sonic is FTE, while Hancock actually is supersonic himself (that white thingy you see behind him means that he broke the sound barrier):

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Also, here you can see him maneuvering around an airplane while flying at supersonic speed, making his reaction speed supersonic as well (before you ask, that happened as part of the same flight as the above GIF, which means that he did fly at supersonic speed at that moment) :

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As for his strength, well, he's by far the strongest combatant in this battle. His shoulder-bash can match the force of a speeding train:

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Also, here he tosses a grey whale (~40 tons) over a distance of a few hundred meters with no effort whatsoever:

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Reverse Flash, who is faster than Sonic, would prove to be a tougher challenge. But he shouldn't be too much faster than Hancock, if he is at all to begin with, and Hancock's vastly superior durability and strength should overcome RF's speed. Judging by his GIFs that you posted, his running speed looks to be really great, but his combat speed nothing that Hancock can't deal with. When he fights, even when he blitzes people, his speed isn't half as good as it is when he's just running. Which makes sense, of course, but it still means that Hancock can deal with him.

Now, the gold token of my team is the Night King's resurrection ability. The first man on your team to die (probably Sonic) will be resurrected and will aid my team to win this.

Summary:

  1. Your smoke tactic won't work since my team will take flight as soon as the fight starts.
  2. As long as my team is in the air, you can't do anything to them.
  3. Viserion can't be killed by most physical means, the Night King is also safe as long as he is seated on Viserion's back since you simply won't be able to reach him. And Hancock is Hancock.
  4. Viserion will torch the entire island, turning it into a death trap for your grounded team.
  5. Hancock can easily beat Sonic thanks to being his superior in every category.
  6. Hancock's speed is comparable to that of Reverse Flash and his strength and durability are far greater, meaning that he will beat him as well.
  7. The first man on your team to die will be resurrected as a wight by the Night King and will help my team end the fight.
  8. Your team ends up like this. I'll let you decide whose head is going up whose ass though ;)

That's all for now, can't wait for your rebuttal mate.

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#10 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

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Counters

Well, first of all, my first and foremost advantage is aerial superiority. My team can stay airborne and yours will have little to nothing to do about it. Your team can't touch mine as long as they're up in the air.

I kinda doubt that, my team can't fly obviously but Sonic can just extremely high as shown when he jumps up a building that was at least(probably much higher though) ten stories high

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Plus, if your team tries to stay in the air Sonic can spam exploding shurikens as well as homing exploding shurikens. This won't do much to Hancock but it will hurt your two pointer.

The first thing my team will do is fly up in the air, which will bring them out of the reach of smoke.

You have to prove your team is fast enough to fly out of the smoke before my team can attack them, because I don't think Hancock is fast enough, let alone Night King and Viserion.

. Also, the dense forest will make it so our teams have no eye contact as the fight begins.

SFW has stated the teams can see each other from the start in the first round I was in, so I'd assume the same would be the case here.

You'll see speed feats for Hancock soon enough, but here's one for Viserion, to show you he's also extremely fast and will be able to take wing quick enough before your team attacks:

Can't say I'm impressed.

They won't have that opportunity seeing as the smoke bombs will fail,

They are more than fast enough, RF is fast enough to blitz the flash and Sonic is actually faster than him, I don't see why they they can't. Alternatively though, instead of the smoke shurikens, Sonic could spam his explosive shurikens from the start which should at the very least take out everyone but Hancock.

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but even if they did I don't see how they're gonna kill them. Viserion is a wight (undead), and wights cannot be killed by normal physical means.

Dismemberment should at least count as a knockout then, or be enough to say they're out of the battle.

As long as Viserion is still in play, the Night King who is seated on Viserion's back can't be harmed either.

And if Reverse Flash phases him off of the Viserion's back? If my team really is unable to kill your team, then they can go for that and possibly beat them.

Now, with your team on the ground and mine safely in the air, Viserion will light up the whole battlefield on fire, which will spread quickly thanks to the dense woodland. The whole island will be a death-trap.

I'll go ahead and guess that you'll have something up your sleeve against the fire,

Yes actually, Eobard could just create a vacuum to put out the fire as he suggested flash do.

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Or they could just move towards the water, I mean they're on an island(which is going to be surrounded by water) so fire shouldn't be a huge problem.

First of all, Hancock should be able to beat Sonic quite easily. As far as you have shown, Sonic is FTE, while Hancock actually is supersonic himself (that white thingy you see behind him means that he broke the sound barrier):

I'm going to assume you think that because Sonic's name is Speed O' Sound Sonic means that he can't go faster than the speed of sound right? Well you'd be wrong, because he can casually exceed the speed of sound in combat.

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  1. he is dodging rocks thrown at supersonic speeds without any trouble with a smile on his face.
  2. This one is pretty obvious but he is stating (and proving) he can easily go faster than the speed of sound.

Sea King too was supersonic seeing as how he could run up a building without being seen or heard by lightning max, yet he couldn't tag Sonic(who was legit dancing around him).

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He also stalemated a one armed Genos(Genos was faster when he fought Sonic though) in speed, who even back then had fte feats.

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Doesn't mean much since a faster genos couldn't see him but genos at this point couldn't see him either when he moves.

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Honestly feats like what I shown in my opener alone are enough to say that Sonic is hypersonic-hypersonic+ in speed.And as I proven supersonic people(like Genos) can't see him when he moves. Even when Genos is improved, and is able to move FTE to Fubuki, he still can't perceive Sonic's movements. I think it's more than safe to say Hancock(your fastest character) won't even be able to see Sonic.

Also, here you can see him maneuvering around an airplane while flying at supersonic speed, making his reaction speed supersonic as well (before you ask, that happened as part of the same flight as the above GIF, which means that he did fly at supersonic speed at that moment) :

That's cute, RF alone has more speed, so it goes without saying Sonic does.

As for his strength, well, he's by far the strongest combatant in this battle. His shoulder-bash can match the force of a speeding train:

Meh, in raw strength sure, I would argue Sonic is strong enough to hurt him so it doesn't matter.

Reverse Flash, who is faster than Sonic,

Nope, he isn't faster, like at all.

But he shouldn't be too much faster than Hancock, if he is at all to begin with, and Hancock's vastly superior durability and strength should overcome RF's speed.

And what is stopping Eobard from phase killing Hancock.

Judging by his GIFs that you posted, his running speed looks to be really great, but his combat speed nothing that Hancock can't deal with.

It's still enough to say he can blitz hancock, and what speed feats does Hancock have to say he can deal with RF?

When he fights, even when he blitzes people, his speed isn't half as good as it is when he's just running. Which makes sense, of course, but it still means that Hancock can deal with him.

Nothing says that Hancock can deal with anyone near his speed,Hancock's speed is Mach one at best, which means he IS getting blitzed by the slowest member of my team reverse flash.I don't think I even need to get into how badly that means he will be blitzed by sonic.

Now, the gold token of my team is the Night King's resurrection ability. The first man on your team to die (probably Sonic) will be resurrected and will aid my team to win this.

Sonic would be able to stomp RF if he were to die, but it doesn't matter because Hancock doesn't have the speed to contend with Reverse Flash so he will be killed by phasing just fine.

Your smoke tactic won't work since my team will take flight as soon as the fight starts.

You gotta prove they have the speed to get into the air before getting blitzed.

As long as my team is in the air, you can't do anything to them.

Homing shurikens,exploding shurikens, and Sonic's ability to jump really high say otherwise. I will just throw this out there, Sonic has really good aim, so if it comes down to it, he should have no problem tagging your team with the gear he carries due to his accuracy and speed.

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This scan also shows the dense plant life should also be no problem for Sonic.

Viserion can't be killed by most physical means,

Then Sonic just dismembers it, it may not die, but at the very least that should count as a knock out or something.

the Night King is also safe as long as he is seated on Viserion's back since you simply won't be able to reach him

That's assuming RF doesn't find a way onto Viserion's back like he could.Either by running up one of the trees and jumping with enough speed or getting to them from the start, he is able to get to night king if he needs to.

. And Hancock is Hancock

That's not enough.

Hancock can easily beat Sonic thanks to being his superior in every category.

Prove it, because I'm sure he is well below him in speed, and I still need proof that he won't get his head cut off by sonic.

Hancock's speed is comparable to that of Reverse Flash and his strength and durability are far greater, meaning that he will beat him as well.

You never proved this, you just said that his combat speed isn't as good as his travel so Hancock must be comparable to him in it.What's stopping Reverse Flash from stealing his heart?

The first man on your team to die will be resurrected as a wight by the Night King and will help my team end the fight.

Even if RF did die it wouldn't matter, Sonic is significantly faster than he is.

Your team ends up like this. I'll let you decide whose head is going up whose ass though ;)

I would say you have it in reverse but I don't think your team will even have heads after this fight.

Summary

  • I'm not convinced Night King and Viserion are impossible to beat, since killing someone isn't the only way to beat them.They can be incapacitated at least due to being dismembered.
  • Sonic is the fastest person in this match,and the second fastest is also on my team so I have an undeniable edge in speed.
  • Sonic is FTE to people who are supersonic,so I have trouble believing your team will tag him.
  • I'm not convinced Hancock can't be killed by having his head cut off since tanking bullets is the extent of his peircing resistance feats
  • I'm also not convinced Reverse Flash can't kill him through phasing.
  • If the fire you're bringing was to be too much then Sonic and RF can just run to the beach part of the island so the fire won't be much of a factor.
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#11 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000:

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I kinda doubt that, my team can't fly obviously but Sonic can just extremely high as shown when he jumps up a building that was at least(probably much higher though) ten stories high

Jumping is fine and dandy, but once he's in the air he isn't as maneuverable of dexterous as my team, he's basically a sitting duck. Hancock will be able to bullrush him into muck, Viserion will be able to burn him, and the Night King will be able to impale him with his magical weapon. Sonic jumps = Sonic dies.

Plus, if your team tries to stay in the air Sonic can spam exploding shurikens as well as homing exploding shurikens. This won't do much to Hancock but it will hurt your two pointer.

Is it before or after he gets burned into oblivion/turned into muck by Hancock?

You have to prove your team is fast enough to fly out of the smoke before my team can attack them, because I don't think Hancock is fast enough, let alone Night King and Viserion.

The problem is, that you said that your opening move will be using the smoke bombs, and only then you will attack. My opening move is just taking flight, with or without smoke.

As you yourself said in your game-plan, your team would have to:

  1. Find my team. They have no idea where my team is, since the forest is too dense to see 200 ft ahead (which is the distance between our teams, as per OP).
  2. Use the smoke bombs and wait for them to take effect, even if it takes 1 second it's quite a lot.
  3. Attack.

While my team has to:

  1. Fly. Even if Sonic reaches my team with the smoke bombs fast enough (which means he would have to find us in less than a second which I find kinda hard to believe), my team can still fly because the smoke won't really bother them. Even if it will obscure their vision, they'll just move upward. Simple.
  2. That's it.

I'm not saying that Viserion is faster than your characters, but he is fast enough to take wing before your team attacks, which is all that matters. Hancock is definitely fast enough, though. He might even be the fastest here (you'll soon see why).

SFW has stated the teams can see each other from the start in the first round I was in, so I'd assume the same would be the case here.

OP says that both teams start 100 ft from the middle, which would put us at the dead center of the forest. There's no way they're gonna see each other without X-ray vision or something. Your team will have to look for mine and there's no way of knowing how long it will take them, but I'd assume it would be at least ~2 seconds if I'm being generous and that's more than enough for my team to climb high enough into the air.

Can't say I'm impressed.

Not saying that it's too fast for Sonic of RF to contend with, but it's definitely fast enough to safely say he will be able to climb high enough into the air before your team finds mine.

They are more than fast enough, RF is fast enough to blitz the flash and Sonic is actually faster than him, I don't see why they they can't. Alternatively though, instead of the smoke shurikens, Sonic could spam his explosive shurikens from the start which should at the very least take out everyone but Hancock.

As far as you have shown, Sonic doesn't look like he's faster than RF, maybe there are some additional feats that you aren't showing me or something. All you posted so far shows Sonic blitzing people or moving FTE, neither of which makes him faster than what I've seen from RF or Hancock for that matter.

Also, as to your explosives, how would that work? Sonic doesn't have a clear shot of my team from the start, and by the time he does it will probably be too late. He'll either burn (the fire will probably make the explosives go off while they're on him too), or Hancock will see to him.

Dismemberment should at least count as a knockout then, or be enough to say they're out of the battle.

Why? You just saw a wight keep going after being cleaved in half, I doubt Viserion will even get that much harm if any at all. Furthermore, after cutting that wight in half, the Hound also chopped off one of its hands. The hand continued to operate on its own even after being cut off:

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And if Reverse Flash phases him off of the Viserion's back? If my team really is unable to kill your team, then they can go for that and possibly beat them.

First of all, by the GIFs that you posted, RF only used his phasing once, which means that it wouldn't really be in-character for him to do that soon enough in the fight. Even if he decides to try it, then my team will be way above his reach by that time.

Yes actually, Eobard could just create a vacuum to put out the fire as he suggested flash do.

That took Barry about 10 seconds to do for a much smaller space than this island, I don't see RF doing it fast enough.

Or they could just move towards the water, I mean they're on an island(which is going to be surrounded by water) so fire shouldn't be a huge problem.

That would still leave them with a space too small to maneuver and make them basically sitting ducks for my team.

I'm going to assume you think that because Sonic's name is Speed O' Sound Sonic means that he can't go faster than the speed of sound right? Well you'd be wrong, because he can casually exceed the speed of sound in combat.

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  1. he is dodging rocks thrown at supersonic speeds without any trouble with a smile on his face.
  2. This one is pretty obvious but he is stating (and proving) he can easily go faster than the speed of sound.

OK, fair enough, he can go at the speed of sound, but Hancock is still far faster. Judging by the 2nd GIF, where all he does when going at this speed is make Saitama's cloak flap a little and the trees maybe shake a bit, Hancock is actually FAR faster than him. Here for example:

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Just launching himself into the air makes the stone bench that he was sitting on explode to bits, and even the windows of the store next to him shattered.

Sea King too was supersonic seeing as how he could run up a building without being seen or heard by lightning max, yet he couldn't tag Sonic(who was legit dancing around him).

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He also stalemated a one armed Genos(Genos was faster when he fought Sonic though) in speed, who even back then had fte feats.

Doesn't mean much since a faster genos couldn't see him but genos at this point couldn't see him either when he moves.

Honestly feats like what I shown in my opener alone are enough to say that Sonic is hypersonic-hypersonic+ in speed.And as I proven supersonic people(like Genos) can't see him when he moves. Even when Genos is improved, and is able to move FTE to Fubuki, he still can't perceive Sonic's movements. I think it's more than safe to say Hancock(your fastest character) won't even be able to see Sonic.

OK, maybe he is supersonic. But he's still slower than Hancock.

That's cute, RF alone has more speed, so it goes without saying Sonic does.

Well I promised to show you why Hancock is the fastest here, so here goes, bear with me. It all lies in here:

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As you can see, at 1:26 Hancock grabbed the kid and flew to the sky with him. By 1:29~1:30, he was back on the ground. The kid only got back to the ground at 1:51, which means about 23 seconds of free-falling (if we're fairly assuming that Hancock reached all the way up at about 1:28).

Now, seeing as the kid was not exactly skinny, he should weigh about 45 kilograms, give or take. Now, if we're to calculate this, an object with a mass of 45 kilograms free-falling for 23 seconds, means he was falling from the height of about 2.6 kilometers (you can try it yourself here). Now, Hancock had to fly 2.6 up and then back down, making it 5.2 kilometers, and as we've seen it took him about 3-4 seconds, so let's say 3.5 seconds to be fair. 5,200 meters (5.2 km) in 3.5 seconds means ~1485 meters per second, which is mach 4.3. Which means 4.3 times the speed of sound.

Now, even without this calculation, we already saw that Hancock is faster than Sonic as the effect they make on their environment alone showed us. So that calc was actually just for fun. Seeing as Hancock is far faster than Sonic, and also far stronger and more durable, I'd say he stomps Sonic to be honest. I still doubt Sonic is faster than RF, but if he is then honestly Hancock should be able to solo your team. Viserion and the Night King make it pretty much an overkill.

Meh, in raw strength sure, I would argue Sonic is strong enough to hurt him so it doesn't matter.

Mary (who is as strong as Hancock at least) was barely able to hurt him, so Sonic won't even tickle him to be honest.

Nope, he isn't faster, like at all.

You're digging your own grave here.

And what is stopping Eobard from phase killing Hancock.

No being fast enough to do it.

I guess I was overestimating him (and underestimating Hancock) when I wrote my last post. I never tried to calc Hancock's feat before, but now that I do, I really think he's the fastest here.

It's still enough to say he can blitz hancock, and what speed feats does Hancock have to say he can deal with RF?

See above.

Nothing says that Hancock can deal with anyone near his speed,Hancock's speed is Mach one at best, which means he IS getting blitzed by the slowest member of my team reverse flash.I don't think I even need to get into how badly that means he will be blitzed by sonic.

Try mach 4.3.

Allow me to skip a bit ahead since it would just be more of the same...

Homing shurikens,exploding shurikens, and Sonic's ability to jump really high say otherwise. I will just throw this out there, Sonic has really good aim, so if it comes down to it, he should have no problem tagging your team with the gear he carries due to his accuracy and speed.

This scan also shows the dense plant life should also be no problem for Sonic.

That's impressive accuracy, I'll give you that, but the difference between this scenery and the one you posted is that here you don't know where my team is. I'd assume that Sonic knew exactly where his target was in that scan, right? Here he has to look for my team first, for all he knows he might be throwing in the very opposite direction.

Then Sonic just dismembers it, it may not die, but at the very least that should count as a knock out or something.

You just saw a wight keep going after being cut in half. And that was a human wight, not even a dragon. Viserion won't be out of the fight so easily.

That's assuming RF doesn't find a way onto Viserion's back like he could.Either by running up one of the trees and jumping with enough speed or getting to them from the start, he is able to get to night king if he needs to.

Even if RF can get high enough to reach the Night King, he'll be a sitting duck in the air, open to a killing shot by Hancock or Viserion. Also, the Night King himself is no pushover. His strength is very impressive. If he tries to tackle the Night King off of Viserion's back or something and the Night King gets a hold of him, then he could kill him too.

That's not enough.

You're right, it's far more than enough.

Prove it, because I'm sure he is well below him in speed, and I still need proof that he won't get his head cut off by sonic.

See above. Also, what's so special about Sonic's weapons to make them do what bullets couldn't?

Summary:

  1. Your team will need 2 seconds at least to find mine due to lack of eye contact, which is more than enough for my team to get a head start up in the air.
  2. Viserion can't be taken out by normal physical means. As we have seen, even cutting wights in half is not enough to take them out of the fight, so dismemberment shouldn't work.
  3. Viserion will torch the entire island. Reverse Flash can't put the fire out fast enough, and if your team retreats to the small part of the shore that has no trees in it, they will have barely any room to maneuver and they'll basically be sitting ducks.
  4. Hancock is the fastest one here by feats. He would beat Sonic fairly easily, and probably RF too. He is strong enough to one-shot either member of your team, your only option was arguing that he won't tag them, which he will.
  5. I doubt Sonic will be able to pierce Hancock unless his weapons are magical or something.
  6. Reverse Flash's phasing isn't really his go-to tactic, he seldom does it and there's no reason to assume he will do it here before my team is well out of his reach.
  7. The first man on your team to die can be resurrected and help my team beat the one remaining. But I don't think even that would be necessary.
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#12 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

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Counters

Jumping is fine and dandy, but once he's in the air he isn't as maneuverable of dexterous as my team, he's basically a sitting duck. Hancock will be able to bullrush him into muck, Viserion will be able to burn him, and the Night King will be able to impale him with his magical weapon. Sonic jumps = Sonic dies.

This sounds right, until you realize your team won't even be able to perceive Sonic's movements. Your best speed feats for your fastest team member (hancock) is supersonic speeds, yet I've proven Sonic is able to easily move fast enough that supersonic people can't even see him. Even when Genos' speed was increased by a lot he still couldn't see Sonic when he took him seriously.If Hancock won't be able to see him(which he won't) I'd love to see you try to prove Viserion can.

Is it before or after he gets burned into oblivion/turned into muck by Hancock?

Definitely before since your team is too slow to even tag Sonic. Anyway he has tanked being his own exploding shurikens so he has some resistance to high temperatures.

The problem is, that you said that your opening move will be using the smoke bombs, and only then you will attack. My opening move is just taking flight, with or without smoke.

That's just one strategy lol, it isn't like that's the ONLY thing my team can possibly do to yours. That said, I really doubt Hancock is just going to start flying to avoid being attacked, when he thinks nothing can hurt him.He will more likely stay at the ground level, and that will be his undoing.

  1. Find my team. They have no idea where my team is, since the forest is too dense to see 200 ft ahead (which is the distance between our teams, as per OP).

Fair, then my team will find your team at superspeed, sure I don't think the plan of using smoke shurikens will work anymore, but still my team might be able to get the drop on yours.

Fly. Even if Sonic reaches my team with the smoke bombs fast enough (which means he would have to find us in less than a second which I find kinda hard to believe),

Assuming your team does go for flying right off the bat, do you really think a highly trained ninja can't spot a dragon in the sky? Once he does, he can get to members of your team and kill them.

He might even be the fastest here (you'll soon see why).

Doubtful.

Not saying that it's too fast for Sonic of RF to contend with, but it's definitely fast enough to safely say he will be able to climb high enough into the air before your team finds mine.

Even if that's the case, it won't be able to get to a high enough height before being spotted and dismembered enough to basically be considered a knockout.

As far as you have shown, Sonic doesn't look like he's faster than RF, maybe there are some additional feats that you aren't showing me or something.

How? Moving FTE to Genos, and creating ten clones with pure speed is above what RF has done. RF has impressive speed feats but he has only been able to make a single afterimage with his speed(and have it look like an exact clone) while Sonic is doing ten times that. That's a hypersonic speed feat right there, and all the FTE feats I shown had him causally doing it, so it isn't like that's his peak or anything.

. All you posted so far shows Sonic blitzing people or moving FTE, neither of which makes him faster than what I've seen from RF

Moving FTE to supersonic people, and despite being amped in speed

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He was still far too fast to be seen by Genos. He then right afterwards shows he can go more than twice the speed he was going at, which was already too fast for Genos to perceive.

Regardless it's extremely pointless to argue who is the faster person between two people that are both on my team.

Hancock for that matter.

The best he has shown is that he can bullrush people at blur speeds, not even FTE speeds which is laughable to Sonic.I would love to see him make one afterimage with his speed.

Also, as to your explosives, how would that work? Sonic doesn't have a clear shot of my team from the start, and by the time he does it will probably be too late.

He can throw it at the big dragon he will see in the sky, I mean it's not really complicated.

He'll either burn (the fire will probably make the explosives go off while they're on him too)

It won't if he is on ground level when he throws it and the dragon is still high enough in the sky.

Why? You just saw a wight keep going after being cleaved in half, I doubt Viserion will even get that much harm if any at all. Furthermore, after cutting that wight in half, the Hound also chopped off one of its hands. The hand continued to operate on its own even after being cut off:

I don't mean just cutting off a hand or leg or something. I mean Sonic could cut him up until there are just pieces of him left,that should to mean count as a win at the very least.

First of all, by the GIFs that you posted, RF only used his phasing once, which means that it wouldn't really be in-character for him to do that soon enough in the fight

I posted one example, and that means it's not really in character for him? Well here is another

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He has used it plenty of times, to say he hasn't makes me think you haven't watched the flash(or just don't remember much of it).

That took Barry about 10 seconds to do for a much smaller space than this island, I don't see RF doing it fast enough.

It was the first time barry did it, and Eobard is not only better at it than he was, but also far faster. And RF doesn't have to put out all the fire on the island, just enough of it to remove it from being a huge problem(assuming it's a problem at all).

That would still leave them with a space too small to maneuver and make them basically sitting ducks for my team.

They're more than fast enough to run on water if that really was a problem.

OK, fair enough, he can go at the speed of sound,

Seriously? I show you him easily( and I do mean easily) breaking the speed of sound and you say he can move at the speed of sound?The interesting thing is, even in my opener you can see when he blitzes hammerhead that he is fast enough to create multiple sonic booms with his speed(6-8),yet for some reason you thought he is slower than sound.

, but Hancock is still far faster. Judging by the 2nd GIF, where all he does when going at this speed is make Saitama's cloak flap a little and the trees maybe shake a bit, Hancock is actually FAR faster than him.

That's just nitpicking, and no offense but kind of stupid. I can show many times comic flash has exceeded the speed of light and doesn't cause the amount of damage hancock did. And if I wanted to nitpick like you are, I can easily bring up the fact that in the video you calc, you can clearly hear the kid screaming before Hancock catches him.Which is something that wouldn't at all be possible if the kid really was moving 4x the speed of sound. Or I could mention the fact that moving at those speeds would rip the kid in half when Hancock puts out his arm to stop him from hitting the ground.

On top of this, Sonic wasn't even going as fast as he could, seeing as he was just showing off to Saitama. And this was his first appearance anyway, and he gets better speed feats later.Also you just shown supersonic travel speed for Hancock, his combat speed is pathetic.

OK, maybe he is supersonic.

So... I show you that he can move at FTE speeds to supersonic people and your response is that he is supersonic? He's hypersonic in speed, which makes him faster than Hancock. He is probably more hypersonic+ than anything, since Genos could compete in speed(after being amped) with a not serious sonic yet can't perceive him when he gets serious.

But he's still slower than Hancock.

Show me, a speed feat that says he can move FTE to people like Sea King and maybe I can call him slow.

As you can see, at 1:26 Hancock grabbed the kid and flew to the sky with him. By 1:29~1:30, he was back on the ground. The kid only got back to the ground at 1:51, which means about 23 seconds of free-falling (if we're fairly assuming that Hancock reached all the way up at about 1:28).

Now, seeing as the kid was not exactly skinny, he should weigh about 45 kilograms, give or take. Now, if we're to calculate this, an object with a mass of 45 kilograms free-falling for 23 seconds, means he was falling from the height of about 2.6 kilometers (you can try it yourself here). Now, Hancock had to fly 2.6 up and then back down, making it 5.2 kilometers, and as we've seen it took him about 3-4 seconds, so let's say 3.5 seconds to be fair. 5,200 meters (5.2 km) in 3.5 seconds means ~1485 meters per second, which is mach 4.3. Which means 4.3 times the speed of sound.

I don't really like to rely on Calcs, seeing as how they put characters at a level they normally have never shown themselves to be at, but hey, you want to go by calcs? Let's go by calcs, going by those CW Flash is Mach 30,000 in speed which scales to RF a bit since he was outright stated to be faster than the S3 Flash.

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Even S2 flash(who RF at an earlier point in his timeline was outracing) has outlier feats like dodging light, and S1 Flash was outracing electricity.

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Your calc'd feat isn't at all consistent for Hancock, but even if we choose to ignore that, RF would be leagues above your team in speed. Even if it was consistent though it wouldn't make his combat speed that fast, so he'd still have trouble keeping up with my team regardless.

Now, even without this calculation, we already saw that Hancock is faster than Sonic as the effect they make on their environment alone showed us.

I addressed this, and I think it was a pretty poor argument.

So that calc was actually just for fun.

If we go by calcs this turns into an insanely huge blitzfest in my favor.

Seeing as Hancock is far faster than Sonic,

He isn't, unless you got some feat that proves Hancock is hypersonic-hypersonic+

and also far stronger and more durable,

Doesn't matter if Sonic is fast enough(which he is) to blitz him and cut off his head.

I'd say he stomps Sonic to be honest.

Ain't happening. Stronger,faster, and more durable people have tried(Sea King) and he failed to beat him when Sonic had no weapons. How is Hancock going to do better against a fully geared Sonic?

I still doubt Sonic is faster than RF,

He without a doubt is in combat speed, not that it matters because last time I checked, both of them are on my team.

but if he is then honestly Hancock should be able to solo your team.

Just because you have a low view of Sonic's speed, doesn't make RF slower than Hancock just because of it. The best I have seen was blur speeds from Hancock when bullrushing people, and was barely supersonic when traveling. As far as I'm concerned Hancock isn't even faster than Deep Sea King, let alone Sonic or Reverse Flash.

Mary (who is as strong as Hancock at least) was barely able to hurt him, so Sonic won't even tickle him to be honest.

I don't see why you would make this assumption, when you've admitted you aren't knowledgeable on manga in the past. Regardless Sonic can hurt DSK with a kick who is far more durable than Hancock, so he is definitely going to do more than "tickle" Hancock.

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You're digging your own grave here.

Right, do tell me how, when the fastest member of your team is barely supersonic, and even then it's in travel speed only. His combat speed is pathetic in comparison to either member of my team.

No being fast enough to do it.

The best legitimate speed feat he has is reacting to a grenade launcher after it was fired, something CW Arrow can do. CW RF is leagues above Hancock in speed as far as I'm concerned.

I guess I was overestimating him (and underestimating Hancock) when I wrote my last post. I never tried to calc Hancock's feat before, but now that I do, I really think he's the fastest here.

I think your digging your grave honestly, go by calcs and Reverse Flash is Mach 30,000 (to compare lightning travels at mach 280) so he would be faster than lightning, which would make him massively hypersonic in speed.

See above.

Look at what I said above.

Try mach 4.3.

Cute, try Mach 30K +

That's impressive accuracy, I'll give you that, but the difference between this scenery and the one you posted is that here you don't know where my team is. I'd assume that Sonic knew exactly where his target was in that scan, right?

I guess, the manga chapter starts off like this so I guess we have to assume he knew where the target is. But Sonic is really good at sensing the presence of others due to his training, so he will be able to sense your team before your team does mine.

You just saw a wight keep going after being cut in half. And that was a human wight, not even a dragon. Viserion won't be out of the fight so easily.

I don't see why he can't keep cutting him up till he is in pieces.

Even if RF can get high enough to reach the Night King, he'll be a sitting duck in the air, open to a killing shot by Hancock or Viserion.

It's like you never heard of phasing.

Also, the Night King himself is no pushover. His strength is very impressive. If he tries to tackle the Night King off of Viserion's back or something and the Night King gets a hold of him, then he could kill him too.

I highly doubt that, and he doesn't have to tackle him off. He could phase him through Viserion similar to how Flash did iris.Or he could send him flying with a punch like how RF did to Black Flash.

You're right, it's far more than enough.

It's still not enough.

See above. Also, what's so special about Sonic's weapons to make them do what bullets couldn't?

Well for one Sonic is faster than bullets. But Genos too is bulletproof(skip to 8:45), yet Sonic would have cut his head off if not for Saitama's intervention.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Now you may try and argue that Saitama was only worried about his house, but it's been shown that Saitama does care about Genos life as seen when he sees how Genos was after a fight with DSK. And in the webcomic Saitama didn't seem that upset that his house was destroyed after dealing with Garou and the monster association. So it's clear Saitama intervened because he knew Sonic's attack would kill Genos.

Viserion can't be taken out by normal physical means. As we have seen, even cutting wights in half is not enough to take them out of the fight, so dismemberment shouldn't work.

Being cut in half, or having a limb removed isn't the same as being cut into nothing but pieces.

Viserion will torch the entire island. Reverse Flash can't put the fire out fast enough, and if your team retreats to the small part of the shore that has no trees in it, they will have barely any room to maneuver and they'll basically be sitting ducks.

He doesn't have to create a vacuum the same way as flash with his arms, he could create an actual tornado with his speed like the Rival did in Flashpoint.

Hancock is the fastest one here by feats

Lol, not even close.Maybe you can argue he is the fastest one on your team,but that's it.

. He would beat Sonic fairly easily,

Before or after he loses his head?

and probably RF too. He is strong enough to one-shot either member of your team, your only option was arguing that he won't tag them, which he will.

I'd dispute that Sonic would get one shotted but it hardly matters when Hancock has combat speed slower than the likes of Thor.

I doubt Sonic will be able to pierce Hancock unless his weapons are magical or something.

He can, otherwise Saitama wouldn't have bothered to save Genos.

Reverse Flash's phasing isn't really his go-to tactic, he seldom does it and there's no reason to assume he will do it here before my team is well out of his reach.

He has used it plenty of times.

The first man on your team to die can be resurrected and help my team beat the one remaining. But I don't think even that would be necessary.

Too bad the only casualties will be on your side.

Conclusion

Nothing has changed, my team is much faster than yours and should win due phasing and piercing attacks.

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#18 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: I forgot to ask but how many posts do you want there to be?

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#19 Edited by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000:

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If you don't mind, I'd rather arrange this post anew and not reply in the exact order the debate was going so far, it feels too messy to me. I'll just cover our major discussed arguments by topic to make it "cleaner" and easier to read. I also won't quote every sentence you said but I promise to still leave nothing unanswered.

The question of speed:

Since speed is the main thing you think is going for you (or rather, the only thing), I'll address that first. I think your argument for Hancock's speed being inconsistent is very lackluster. All he has going for him is one ~100 minute long movie, and in that movie he only has one calculable speed feat which is the one I showed you in my last post. He does not suffer from the same inconsistency as Reverse Flash. Reverse Flash has canon numerical values for his peak performance which contradict his high-end feats, as you yourself said, while Hancock doesn't. The argument of his speed feat that I calculated being an outlier is actually very false seeing as this isn't even his best speed feat, just the only one I figured how to calculate more or less accurately which is why I used it. Look here for example:

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In less than 30 seconds, Hancock flew to the moon and back, and even painted a heart on it so huge that it covered like half its surface when viewed from Earth. You can tell that up until Ray's phone rang, the heart wasn't there by the reactions (or lack thereof, to be more accurate) of the people on the pier. Only after Hancock tells Ray to look up, everybody all of a sudden seem to notice the heart, meaning that it wasn't there up until Hancock phoned Ray. You even hear the people around Ray shouting in astonishment at 0:43, which means it's the first time they saw the heart. Either way you turn it, he's definitely faster than either man on your team. There's no way around it, really. The only way you'd be able to argue against it is to suggest that in the "Hancock-verse", every single person on Earth is too stupid to notice the heart until that point and for some reason everybody just noticed it for the first time in the exact same moment. If you wanna argue that, well then go right ahead, I won't argue against it and just let the voters decide which argument makes more sense: everybody on Earth being either blind as a mole or dumb as a brick, OR Hancock simply being fookin' fast.

The point is, that no, Hancock does not suffer from inconsistency. He has very few on-screen feats, he doesn't even have enough for any of them to be fairly and objectively counted an "outlier". Reverse Flash, on the other hand, by your own admission - does have his high-ends and low-ends and he has many feats that outright contradict one another (like dodging a bullet VS being tagged by Oliver's arrows... more than once I should say), which forces the fanbase to go to some acceptable canon average. Which, I safely assume, is FAR below mach 30k. And since you asked, no , I haven't watched "Flash" (the only CW show I watched was "Arrow" and I'm yet to start S6). If you wanna go high-end then sure, go ahead, the moon feat puts Hancock at over mach 75 as an EXTREMELY low-end estimate. Mach 75 would be flying to the moon and back in 30 seconds, and it took him less than that, and that's without even considering him drawing that huge heart, all in all it should be well above mach 150, probably more than 200, but I don't wanna go that way. You have to accept that Hancock is the fastest man here either with common sense, or with calcs, both of which are on my side.

The only thing I'll give you is the argument of the environmental damage caused by speed. You made a fair enough point, the environmental damage caused by Hancock launching himself into the air isn't indicative of him being faster than Sonic. The moon feat (and yeah the feat with the chubby kid too), DO make him FAR faster though, than either man on your team.

Moving FTE to supersonic people, and despite being amped in speed

That really doesn't say much. "Supersonic" is a very general term. Anything above mach 1 is supersonic. Mach 1.00000000000000000000001 is supersonic. Being FTE to someone who is supersonic can mean he's mach 2, for all we know. Hancock is over mach 4 by the feat that I calced alone, and that's not nearly his best one as you have seen. Unless you can put a numerical value on Sonic's speed, there's really no reason to assume he's faster than mach 4, let alone the mach WTF that Hancock was going in the ending scene with the moon and whatnot.

The best he has shown is that he can bullrush people at blur speeds, not even FTE speeds which is laughable to Sonic.I would love to see him make one afterimage with his speed.

Hancock was holding back because he didn't want to kill the robbers, which bullrushing them at his supersonic speed would have done. He has no reason to hold back here, unfortunately for you. Nevermind that you hear the sonic-booms earlier that scene too, so there's that.

Even if it was consistent though it wouldn't make his combat speed that fast, so he'd still have trouble keeping up with my team regardless.

The thing is, that Hancock doesn't use his "combat speed". He pretty much never uses strikes, he just bullrushes people (or throws stuff at them sometimes). The only speed that usually comes into play when he fights is his raw travel speed, so there won't be any exchange of blows or anything of the sort, that's not how he fights.

even in my opener you can see when he blitzes hammerhead that he is fast enough to create multiple sonic booms with his speed(6-8),yet for some reason you thought he is slower than sound.

Wait, was that supposed to be impressive? Because that puts him at mach 1, y'know, sonic booms happen when you break the sound barrier, and Hancock does it for kicks. You can try and count how many "booms" he makes here, I couldn't, but be damn sure that it's well over 8 of them:

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Same here (when he's drunk):

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The question of knocking out Viserion:

You offered to dismember him completely. Now, why would Sonic do that? He has no idea that Viserion is undead, or what the abilities of wights even are. IF he gets the chance to lay a hit on Viserion, and that's a big "if", he will probably land one hit and be done with it, choosing to focus on his remaining adversary, only to find out to his dismay that one hit was far from enough. On the other hand, if he tries to go all Fruit Ninja on Viserion, that'll give Hancock the perfect chance to take him out quickly and easily. Not that he needs that, coz he's just fast enough as it is.

Another thing is, that while wights can shrug off almost any conventional physical attack, they still feel the pain from supposedly severe ones. For example here:

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The wight fell, supposedly out of the fight, after Jon stabbed it in the gut. But it got up completely fine only a couple of seconds later. Viserion is clever enough to know that he could very well fool Sonic that way (it was stated that Dragons are smarter than humans in the show).

In any case, Viserion will be very high up by the time either Sonic or Reverse Flash reach him. As Fizz confirmed, our teams begin out of eyesight. By the time your team knows where to find mine, Hancock can reach out of orbit and Viserion can climb at least as high as Sonic can jump. As to that, by the way, you said:

This sounds right, until you realize your team won't even be able to perceive Sonic's movements. Your best speed feats for your fastest team member (hancock) is supersonic speeds, yet I've proven Sonic is able to easily move fast enough that supersonic people can't even see him. Even when Genos' speed was increased by a lot he still couldn't see Sonic when he took him seriously.If Hancock won't be able to see him(which he won't) I'd love to see you try to prove Viserion can.

As fast as Sonic is, he can't fly. The moment he jumps into the air, he will be completely helpless, and his drop won't be any faster than that of a normal human. He won't have anything to bound off of like the trees around Saitama in that GIF you posted, and he will just drop. His drop won't be any faster than that of any normal human, and that means Viserion could torch him up, Hancock could smash him into muck, or the Night King can impale him like so:

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Another thing you suggested, is Sonic sniping Viserion out of the sky with his projectiles:

He can throw it at the big dragon he will see in the sky, I mean it's not really complicated.

Well, throwing his projectiles at a stationary target is one thing. Did he ever tag a fast-moving target? No, he isn't supersonic, but he's still damn fast. Pretty close to mach 1 I'd say. Compare it to YouTube videos of fighter jets breaking the sound barrier, he isn't far behind that when going at top speed like here:

Also notice how Tormund and Beric have trouble perceiving him. Also the camera effect is not meaningless here obviously.
Also notice how Tormund and Beric have trouble perceiving him. Also the camera effect is not meaningless here obviously.

Did Sonic ever tag a target moving at those speeds, at such distance?

The question of Hancock's piercing resistance (and whether Sonic can hurt him):

The sword isn't going to hurt him. No more than the bullets did.

Well for one Sonic is faster than bullets. But Genos too is bulletproof(skip to 8:45), yet Sonic would have cut his head off if not for Saitama's intervention.

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Now you may try and argue that Saitama was only worried about his house, but it's been shown that Saitama does care about Genos life as seen when he sees how Genos was after a fight with DSK. And in the webcomic Saitama didn't seem that upset that his house was destroyed after dealing with Garou and the monster association. So it's clear Saitama intervened because he knew Sonic's attack would kill Genos.

Now that's a cute little theory, but Saitama DID explicitly say that he doesn't want anything to happen to his house. Moreover, with all due respect, Saitama is not omniscient, maybe he didn't know whether Sonic's sword will cut Genos but just didn't wanna take any chances. Genos was on the floor, defeated, and it's clear that Sonic would have killed him with or without his sword, so Saitama just intervened before Sonic got the chance. There's no way of knowing whether the sword would have pierced his skin or not and we can't go off the assumption that it would have. I don't doubt that Sonic can deliver a hit harder than a bullet, but what makes you think that Hancock's skin will break, and not the sword? Hancock can use his fingernails to cut through bulletproof glass, sharpen steel and carve on concrete walls:

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And yet he uses them to shave with no damage to his skin:

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I do believe that already puts him above bulletproof.

Also, there's this scene:

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The police captain told Hancock that the bank robbers have heavy artillery with them, 50 caliber or even bigger (skip to 2:03 to see it), and Hancock said he doesn't worry about that. If you wanna accept Saitama maybe-kinda-sorta thinking that Sonic's sword can hurt Genos, we'll have to accept Hancock having no problem whatsoever with heavy artillery, which is >>> regular bullets such as those that Genos took in that video of yours.

Bottom line, the sword ain't doing jack to Hancock. You have no explicit proof that the sword can do more damage than bullets, let alone heavy artillery.

I don't see why you would make this assumption, when you've admitted you aren't knowledgeable on manga in the past. Regardless Sonic can hurt DSK with a kick who is far more durable than Hancock, so he is definitely going to do more than "tickle" Hancock.

You did admit that Hancock is > Sonic in strength. Mary is >= Hancock in strength and she could barely tickle him while extremely ticked off, so why would Sonic be able to hurt him?

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A depowered, severely injured Hancock jumped from a ~10th story window and suffered no further harm from it. On the contrary, he even regained his powers shortly after:

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Nah, Sonic ain't even scratching the surface.

The question of the fire on the island:

It was the first time barry did it, and Eobard is not only better at it than he was, but also far faster. And RF doesn't have to put out all the fire on the island, just enough of it to remove it from being a huge problem(assuming it's a problem at all).

Did Eobard ever do it on screen? If not (and I guess not because otherwise why post Barry doing it in the first place), then how can you tel he'd be better than Barry at it? Seems like a pretty simple thing to do, the only question is how fast he can do it. In any case, there are a few things to consider here:

  1. The island is many times larger than the few rooms that Barry had to put out, which means more time needed to put out the fire.
  2. The island is an open environment, not an enclosed space like that building. Choking out the fire under the open sky is FAR harder than doing it in a place like Barry did, if it's even possible to begin with.
  3. Viserion can, y'know... keep burning it. His fire isn't going to run out or anything.
  4. Even if we ignore the above factors, and assume Eobard can put out the fire even faster than Barry... how much faster will that be? Twice as fast? That's still 5 seconds which are all but an eternity for people like Hancock, and in those 5 seconds he will be literally a sitting duck.

He doesn't have to create a vacuum the same way as flash with his arms, he could create an actual tornado with his speed like the Rival did in Flashpoint.

Since when is applying other people's tactics and abilities into your character considered acceptable? Be that as it may, creating a tornado still means running small circles around a small point for a while, which again makes him a sitting duck.

They're more than fast enough to run on water if that really was a problem.

Cool, so are they going to run circles around the island while Hancock plays whack-the-mole with them or just BFR themselves and give me an auto-win? I would strongly suggest the latter, far less messy and painful for them.

Anyway he has tanked being his own exploding shurikens so he has some resistance to high temperatures.

Did he survive them going off at his face though? As in, going off while he's still carrying them on his person? And Viserion's fire is hotter than any fire. Blue flames are generally hotter than your everyday yellow/red/orange, and not to mention that, y'know... he brought down the Wall in less than 2 minutes with his fire breath. In any case, I don't see what those things will do to Viserion in the first place. They create pretty tiny explosions and Viserion is a pretty huge dragon, and far more durable than a human besides. Furthermore, the Night King (and White Walkers in general) don't give a damn for fire and explosives either:

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So your shurikens are kinda useless here. Even if Viserion does go out, Hancock can just grab the Night King as he falls and put him safely on the ground.

It won't if he is on ground level when he throws it and the dragon is still high enough in the sky.

You said he will "spam" them, and even showed me a GIF of him doing so. He has many of those on him, he can throw one of even a few but the ones still on him will overheat and blow up.

The question of phasing:

The thing about phasing is, that not only does Eobard do it far less than he chooses to simply brawl, but also when did he do it against someone who can challenge him speed-wise, let alone surpass him massively? The only times I saw him do it are in your 2 GIFs, and when he tried to do it to Oliver in that famous fight (Flash/Ollie/Firestorm VS Thawne). Did he ever do it to another speedster? I never saw him do it.

Speaking of what's in or out of character, another thing I know of Reverse Flash is that he's too cocky for his own good. He's a boaster, he likes to play with his food. He did it against Flash, Firestorm and Oliver when all three of them were fighting him at the same time, and there's nothing to suggest he won't do it here, which will be his downfall.

Also, that's still assuming he'll even get close enough to my team before they're too high up in the air. He can't jump as high as Sonic, and there's nothing to suggest he'll find my team before they're up in the air. Once they're up, he's literally useless. As already established, the odds that your team will find mine quick enough is very small, thanks to the lack of eye contact and my team being able to climb high enough in the air before your team finds them.

The question of flying:

Still my trump card. Once my team is in the air, your team can't do jack. Sure, Sonic can jump like 10 stories high (which is what, 40 meters? Less even), but as I explained that would be a terrible idea and will only end in his death. Hancock can fly to space and Viserion can fly higher than the Wall which is 700 ft (200-something feet) high.

Fair, then my team will find your team at superspeed, sure I don't think the plan of using smoke shurikens will work anymore, but still my team might be able to get the drop on yours.

How? There's a very small chance that they will get to my team in less than the 2 seconds (at most) that it would take them both to reach high enough. You're dependent on luck with this assumption and luck alone. You can't count on it. Your team has to find mine, my team just has to go straight up and they're untouchable.

That said, I really doubt Hancock is just going to start flying to avoid being attacked, when he thinks nothing can hurt him.He will more likely stay at the ground level, and that will be his undoing.

Dude, Hancock's partner in this battle is a magical ice-demon riding a zombie dragon. To assume he won't expect some equally freaky sh!t from the other team would be fallacious. Moreover, his go-to move is flying. The bank robbers were just 3 dudes with guns, he didn't have to fly when he engaged them, but he still did.

Assuming your team does go for flying right off the bat, do you really think a highly trained ninja can't spot a dragon in the sky? Once he does, he can get to members of your team and kill them.

As I said, he's more than welcome to jump. He won't go high enough to reach Viserion, but still.

Even if that's the case, it won't be able to get to a high enough height before being spotted and dismembered enough to basically be considered a knockout.

And your proof for that is..? You haven't presented any proof for that, you don't know how long it will take Sonic to reach my team, and you don't know if he'll even jump to begin with. He might very well just stay on the ground and throw something at him (which will do nothing and just allow Viserion to climb higher and higher). But, as I said, have Sonic jump. Please do, he'll be a sitting duck, literally.

But Sonic is really good at sensing the presence of others due to his training, so he will be able to sense your team before your team does mine.

They don't really have to "sense" your team, they'll just fly up in the air and the Viserion will burn the whole place, Hancock will join in the moment he sees either of your guys and take them out. Simple. Your team is the one relying on trying to find mine as fast as possible, not the other way around.

It's like you never heard of phasing.

So you suggest that he will go up in the air and just stay phasing until he touches the ground? I don't see that happening, why didn't he ever do it if it's so simple? Furthermore, trying to phase through the Night King would probably kill him, I doubt he'd be able to withstand the sheer cold of the White Walkers:

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Summary:

My team can fly, yours can't. That's the beginning of it and that's the end of it. The moment my team is in the air, your team is helpless. Our teams starting out of eye-sight means that you'll have to spend precious time looking for my team which guarantees my team to safely reach high enough to be out of your reach. The only one on your team that has an option of reaching my team in the air is Sonic, and even he can't jump THAT high. As you said, he caps at about the height of 10 stories, which Hancock can surpass in less than a second and Viserion can reach easily in less than 2 seconds. Be that as it may, the moment he jumps, he is a sitting duck. His speed is useless in the air, and he will be quickly killed.

After taking flight, Viserion will torch the island, forcing your team into a corner: it's either die screaming, try and put out the fire which will make them sitting ducks, or run away across the water which is pretty much self-BFR. Remaining on the island will also mean that Sonic's explosives will go off due to overheating and either kill him or do enough damage to make him an easy kill for my team.

Hancock is easily the fastest man here. Calcs or no, he can fly to the moon, paint a huge heart on it and get back to Earth in less than 30 seconds. No way around it. His combat speed that you kept bringing up is never put to use seeing as he fights with bullrushes and raw strength/speed, and therefore it's irrelevant.

Hancock can't be hurt by Sonic. Your assumption that Sonic's sword can succeed where bullets failed is a baseless one at best, and even if we accept that assumption we also have to accept that Hancock doesn't give a damn about heavy artillery and therefore the sword is still useless.

Viserion being cut to pieces is something that's unlikely to happen, even if your team can reach him before he gets high enough in the air. It would be very weird and far-fetched to assume that Sonic will try to butcher him into pieces when he knows nothing on him, which will be his undoing, and even if he does do it Hancock will be able to attack him while he's at it. Viserion is pretty huge, dicing him up will take too much time.

Phasing seems unlikely for Reverse Flash to use in that scenario. He won't be able to reach my team quick enough to use it in the first place, and he can't even jump like Sonic. As I said, the moment the fight starts my team flies up, and Thawne will remain on the ground with no option to reach them. He's literally useless here.

Your best case scenario will be that by some divine stroke of luck you find my team as soon as you possibly can. Hancock will be well out of your reach, but Viserion just might be taken out, and maybe the Night King as well. That still leaves Hancock up in the air with your team unable to reach him. He is fast and powerful enough to take out your team one by one. Aerial superiority is always a trump card as a rule of thumb, and here is no different.

As for how many posts each of us should make, I think we may wanna go one more round since I did use a lot of feats here, but if you wanna open this for votes be my guest.

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#20 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

As for how many posts each of us should make, I think we may wanna go one more round since I did use a lot of feats here, but if you wanna open this for votes be my guest.

Yeah we can do one more round before this gets opened for voting.

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#21 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

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Concluding Counters

If you don't mind, I'd rather arrange this post anew and not reply in the exact order the debate was going so far, it feels too messy to me. I'll just cover our major discussed arguments by topic to make it "cleaner" and easier to read. I also won't quote every sentence you said but I promise to still leave nothing unanswered.

That's fine for me.

Speed

Since speed is the main thing you think is going for you (or rather, the only thing), I'll address that first. I think your argument for Hancock's speed being inconsistent is very lackluster.

My argument is that was wasn't portrayed as the mach 4.3 speedster you're making him out to be. In his fights with mary I'd say he was at best only fighting a blur speeds(for most of it slower honestly).

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All he has going for him is one ~100 minute long movie

So what? Just because he doesn't have multiple movies with plenty of feats doesn't mean he can't have one feat that isn't consistent with all his other showings.

and in that movie he only has one calculable speed feat which is the one I showed you in my last post.

I'd like to point out that even if he was that fast it couldn't be applied to his combat speed, so even if the feat was legit and not inconsistent it by no means makes him the fastest here.

Reverse Flash has canon numerical values for his peak performance which contradict his high-end feats, as you yourself said,

I never said that, I said Flash has many outlier feats that if we were to use would scale to RF and put him leagues above Hancock in speed.

In less than 30 seconds, Hancock flew to the moon and back, and even painted a heart on it so huge that it covered like half its surface when viewed from Earth. You can tell that up until Ray's phone rang, the heart wasn't there by the reactions (or lack thereof, to be more accurate) of the people on the pier. Only after Hancock tells Ray to look up, everybody all of a sudden seem to notice the heart, meaning that it wasn't there up until Hancock phoned Ray. You even hear the people around Ray shouting in astonishment at 0:43, which means it's the first time they saw the heart. Either way you turn it, he's definitely faster than either man on your team. There's no way around it, really. The only way you'd be able to argue against it is to suggest that in the "Hancock-verse", every single person on Earth is too stupid to notice the heart until that point and for some reason everybody just noticed it for the first time in the exact same moment. If you wanna argue that, well then go right ahead, I won't argue against it and just let the voters decide which argument makes more sense: everybody on Earth being either blind as a mole or dumb as a brick, OR Hancock simply being fookin' fast

There is one really huge problem with all of this, and that it relies on the assumption that Hancock did all that in less than 30 seconds which is backed by the dialogue at all.Here is what is said

Ray: I've been trying to call you.

Hancock: Yeah, I was out of cell range.

That may not sound like much but those statements show that Ray had tried to call Hancock while Hancock was in space, which clearly implies Hancock was in space for a very significant amount of time if Ray could give Hancock a couple of calls on his phone and be out with Mary and his kid for a while before Hancock calls him back.

I don't know about you but that makes me think that it took longer than thirty for Hancock to do what he did. And even if he did (he didn't) so what? That's just travel speed, and Thor is an insanely good bit of proof that you can be insanely fast in travel speed and still be slow as hell in combat.The guy is fast enough to travel across the universe yet gets blitzed by people like wolverine and DD. Hancock's combat speed feats are inferior to Reverse Flash and Sonic's by miles, so I don't see how this is still being argued.

Reverse Flash, on the other hand, by your own admission - does have his high-ends and low-ends

Quote where I said that.

he has many feats that outright contradict one another (like dodging a bullet VS being tagged by Oliver's arrows... more than once I should say)

He was only tagged by Oliver's arrows when he was caught off guard( the first time when he had just thrown Flash as seen in my opener, and the second when he just had been blasted by firestorm off of the Star Labs building which is also in my opener) when you look at the context you can see that's not a low showing.

If you wanna go high-end then sure, go ahead, the moon feat puts Hancock at over mach 75 as an EXTREMELY low-end estimate. Mach 75 would be flying to the moon and back in 30 seconds, and it took him less than that, and that's without even considering him drawing that huge heart, all in all it should be well above mach 150, probably more than 200, but I don't wanna go that way.

If we went by high end feats RF would be over 10x than Hancock, so you aren't doing yourself any favors here.

You have to accept that Hancock is the fastest man here either with common sense, or with calcs, both of which are on my side.

It's common sense that the guy who's best feats are massively inferior to my team's is the fastest man here? I don't see how but maybe the voters will.

with common sense, or with calcs, both of which are on my side.

Still not sure how you can say that though, there are many calcs for how fast the cw flash is, and there are more than just what I've shown that more than blow yours out of the water.Unless mach 200 is somehow better than being mach 30,000 now. As for common sense, again how? He is barely supersonic in travel speed, and has no combat speed feats to say he is supersonic there too. And even if he did, so what? Reverse Flash has fodderized Barry allen who was faster able to move above mach 2, and Sonic is able to move so fast that people who are supersonic can't even perceive his movements.Genos had to have his speed enhanced to keep up with a not serious sonic, but when he does get serious he still can't see him (while sonic isn't even going full speed I might add). Hancock has some physical advantages in this fight, but speed is not one of them.

Also S3 Flash has an even better speed feat than that would put him over mach 100,000 in speed because he and supergirl were fast enough to put some sonic device on all the Dominators in the country. You aren't doing yourself any favors by bringing up calcs.

The moon feat (and yeah the feat with the chubby kid too), DO make him FAR faster though, than either man on your team.

They really aren't, even without calcs RF has a far better speed feat than the catching a kid feat you shown.

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Here eobard moves so fast that he makes it look not only like he and wells are two different people(by constantly switching costumes through speed) but makes it look like he is being beaten up by RF.This is far more impressive than catching a falling kid IMO.And even if it isn't it doesn't matter, eobard uses tachyon enhancement after to make himself even faster, so that is by no means RF at his fastest.

That really doesn't say much. "Supersonic" is a very general term. Anything above mach 1 is supersonic. Mach 1.00000000000000000000001 is supersonic. Being FTE to someone who is supersonic can mean he's mach 2, for all we know.

You'd have to move at more than mach 2 to be FTE to someone who is mach 1, because mach 2 is only twice the speed of sound, and it would be straight up crazy to think that Sonic is only going 2x the speed Genos is able to go when he moves FTE to him. And we have to remember even before being enhanced Genos was able to move at FTE speeds and stalemate Sea King in speed, so him being his parts improved and not being able to perceive Sonic is really impressive. Even when Sea King got more powerful and faster due to being in the rain he still was too slow to catch Sonic(he too couldn't perceive Sonic), meanwhile has Hancock even shown he can go FTE?

Unless you can put a numerical value on Sonic's speed, there's really no reason to assume he's faster than mach 4,

There is no way he is going less than mach four while creating ten perfect clones of himself via speed.

let alone the mach WTF that Hancock was going in the ending scene with the moon and whatnot.

You use that and I use Flash's speed feat that puts him over mach 100,000 in speed, which once again scales to Reverse Flash.

Hancock was holding back because he didn't want to kill the robbers, which bullrushing them at his supersonic speed would have done. He has no reason to hold back here, unfortunately for you. Nevermind that you hear the sonic-booms earlier that scene too, so there's that.

You don't hear sonic booms, it sound more like wind rustling because of how fast he is moving. And I don't see a reason to think he was holding back his speed, since even moving at blur speeds would enough to kill a person. It's possible he took them out similar to how Superman did that guy who was about to kill Lois in BvS.

The thing is, that Hancock doesn't use his "combat speed". He pretty much never uses strikes, he just bullrushes people (or throws stuff at them sometimes). The only speed that usually comes into play when he fights is his raw travel speed, so there won't be any exchange of blows or anything of the sort, that's not how he fights.

The speed at which you bullrush someone isn't the same speed at which your raw travel speed is regardless. And he will have trouble tagging RF and Sonic due to the fact that they can easily react to supersonic attacks. I already shown Sonic can dodge boulders thrown at supersonic speeds easily with a smile on his face, and Flash has picked bullets out of the air while they were moving in slow motion, so even if he bullrushes at supersonic speeds he will have a hard time tagging them(especially when you remember they are much more maneuverable with their speed than hancock). And it isn't like he always enters fights just blitzing people right off the bat anyway.

Wait, was that supposed to be impressive?

No, it just seemed weird that I have to prove Sonic isn't only able to move at the speed of sound when my opener already proved he can move faster than it.

Taking out Viserion

You offered to dismember him completely. Now, why would Sonic do that? He has no idea that Viserion is undead, or what the abilities of wights even are.

I mean he as pretty much done just that to giant snake in one of the filler episodes(which is fair game due to the tourney rules).

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No reason to think he won't here to a giant fire breathing dragon.

he will probably land one hit and be done with it, choosing to focus on his remaining adversary, only to find out to his dismay that one hit was far from enough.

See above.

IF he gets the chance to lay a hit on Viserion, and that's a big "if",

He is more than fast enough, and you have to remember our teams have no knowledge on each other.That means your team has no reason to think that they need to stay as high in the sky as you keep suggesting. And while I do believe Viserion will be in the air(I mean it is a dragon) Reverse Flash could get it to the ground by creating a vortex as he is more than fast enough to do it.

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When Viserion gets close enough he will do this, making it hard to stay in the air and cause it to crash. Once that's done Sonic will slice it to pieces.

On the other hand, if he tries to go all Fruit Ninja on Viserion, that'll give Hancock the perfect chance to take him out quickly and easily.

He is more than fast enough to react to Hancock, but even if that did give Hancock the chance what do you think Reverse flash will be doing? He is able to distract Hancock(who I still don't believe would be in the air like your plan needs him to be) while Sonic deals with Viserion.

In any case, Viserion will be very high up by the time either Sonic or Reverse Flash reach him.

It has no reason to think that Reverse Flash or Sonic have the means to kill it, being smarter than medieval humans doesn't mean it can see the future.

By the time your team knows where to find mine, Hancock can reach out of orbit

Oh come on. The guy who believes he is indestructible is going to fly to orbit is going to orbit over someone that looks like a comic con cosplayer and a guy with a sword? He has no reason to do that, because he doesn't know they can kill them. The legit first rule of this tourney is that these are random encounters, and unless Speed O' Sound Sonic and RF made an appearance in Hancock that I'm not aware of this would mean he isn't going to be keeping his distance.

Viserion can climb at least as high as Sonic can jump.

Sure, but to torch the island he is going to have to fly low close to the ground( but above the trees obviously), so he can jump to viserion's height if needed.

As fast as Sonic is, he can't fly. The moment he jumps into the air, he will be completely helpless, and his drop won't be any faster than that of a normal human.

When I say jump I don't mean he will just jump up vertically into the air, otherwise you would be right.

Well, throwing his projectiles at a stationary target is one thing. Did he ever tag a fast-moving target?

No but he doesn't need to, because of his high speed homing exploding shurikens. They can lock onto fast targets like Tatsumaki, so it can definitely lock onto Viserion who isn't anywhere near as fast.

Taking down Hancock

The sword isn't going to hurt him. No more than the bullets did.

You agreed that he is faster than bullets but it's worth mentioning bullets don't piece like knives or swords do. Kevlar can stop bullets, but a knife would go through it just fine.Being bulletproof doesn't mean he can resist having his head cut off by something with more speed and power than a bullet has.

Now that's a cute little theory, but Saitama DID explicitly say that he doesn't want anything to happen to his house.

Sure he did,but that doesn't change the fact that he did what he did to save Genos' life.

Moreover, with all due respect, Saitama is not omniscient, maybe he didn't know whether Sonic's sword will cut Genos but just didn't wanna take any chances.

That's a fair point, but the thing is, he knows what Sonic can do, and he knows what Genos can do, seeing as how he has seen them both fight as well as fought them. I'd think that would mean he would know what it takes to beat genos, especially since he has seen him lose in battle. But if you don't want to accept it then there is ONE's having stated that Sonic with his weapons would have beaten Sea King. This matters, because Sea King and Genos were about on par with each other in their fight so for Sonic to be able to kill Deep Sea King should at the very least make it not hard to believe he can beat Genos too. And just in case you intend to bring up the fact that his sword isn't his only weapon it should be brought up that he was taking blasts from Genos(which are far more powerful than Sonic's explosive shurikens) so the only way he could have killed him would have been with his sword.

Genos was on the floor, defeated

No he wasn't,he was knocked to the ground by Saitama to save him from having his head cut off by Sonic.

Hancock can use his fingernails to cut through bulletproof glass, sharpen steel and carve on concrete walls:

And yet he uses them to shave with no damage to his skin:

There really is no way of knowing if he is applying the same amount of force to his skin as he is to the other stuff.

The police captain told Hancock that the bank robbers have heavy artillery with them, 50 caliber or even bigger (skip to 2:03 to see it), and Hancock said he doesn't worry about that. If you wanna accept Saitama maybe-kinda-sorta thinking that Sonic's sword can hurt Genos, we'll have to accept Hancock having no problem whatsoever with heavy artillery, which is >>> regular bullets such as those that Genos took in that video of yours.

The guys shooting genos had machine guns, so I'd imagine Genos and Hancock were no selling similar stuff.

Bottom line, the sword ain't doing jack to Hancock. You have no explicit proof that the sword can do more damage than bullets, let alone heavy artillery.

If he can take down Sea King(as stated by ONE) with said sword then he can without a doubt do more piercing damage then bullets.

You did admit that Hancock is > Sonic in strength. Mary is >= Hancock in strength and she could barely tickle him while extremely ticked off, so why would Sonic be able to hurt him?

Because Deep Sea King is leagues above Hancock in durability feats.The guy took a punch from Genos that sent him through a missile-proof shelter as well as a couple buildings and was back into the fight in seconds, claiming that it just made him mad.

Fire

Did Eobard ever do it on screen? If not (and I guess not because otherwise why post Barry doing it in the first place), then how can you tel he'd be better than Barry at it?

He legit was teaching Barry how to do it, maybe it's just me, but I would think that if you're able to teach someone how to do something then you would know how to not only do it yourself, but do it better then they did.

The island is many times larger than the few rooms that Barry had to put out, which means more time needed to put out the fire.

Sure, but the thing you have to remember is that Barry did that with his arms, if he created a vortex with his body he would be able to put out a bigger fire.

Viserion can, y'know... keep burning it. His fire isn't going to run out or anything.

Unless he is inside the vortex, which would be removing the air around him and inside his lungs.

Even if we ignore the above factors, and assume Eobard can put out the fire even faster than Barry... how much faster will that be? Twice as fast? That's still 5 seconds which are all but an eternity for people like Hancock, and in those 5 seconds he will be literally a sitting duck.

Sonic can cause a distraction, even if it's just throwing shurikens at Viserion, or going for cutting off Hancock's head. Hell with Sonic's speed I'm confident that he could distract both Hancock and Viserion for at least five seconds.

Since when is applying other people's tactics and abilities into your character considered acceptable?

They have the same powerset, it isn't like I'm saying Eobard will throw lighting at your team, which is an ability that we have no way of knowing he can do. Eobard has created vortexes with his speed in combat, so I don't see why we need to assume he won't.

Be that as it may, creating a tornado still means running small circles around a small point for a while, which again makes him a sitting duck.

He has a partner, and anyway I don't even think my team needs to put out the fire. They can fight on the beach part, and if they need more room to dodge they can run on the water and get to another part of the island.Really fire is only a distraction at best, and isn't going to take down my team.

Cool, so are they going to run circles around the island while Hancock plays whack-the-mole with them

No, I'm saying if they ever need more room that they can run on water. And Hancock isn't anywhere near maneuverable enough to win a game of whack-a-mole with Eobard and Sonic regardless.

just BFR themselves and give me an auto-win?

Lol, no. Also the water and sand in the location could be used to put out the fire, which is something I feel the need to bring up.

Did he survive them going off at his face though?

He threw them at the ground right below where he was standing.

. Furthermore, the Night King (and White Walkers in general) don't give a damn for fire and explosives either:

The ones that were hit by it seem to have been taken down, so I'm wondering why that even matters.

So your shurikens are kinda useless here. Even if Viserion does go out, Hancock can just grab the Night King as he falls and put him safely on the ground.

So Sonic can slice and dice him too? Cool.

You said he will "spam" them, and even showed me a GIF of him doing so. He has many of those on him, he can throw one of even a few but the ones still on him will overheat and blow up.

I know, and I am sure Sonic isn't stupid enough to get close enough to the fire so they overheat. Even so he won't be knocked out by them.

Phasing

The thing about phasing is, that not only does Eobard do it far less than he chooses to simply brawl, but also when did he do it against someone who can challenge him speed-wise, let alone surpass him massively?

If you're referring to the Flash then there is a really good reason for that. When he went back in time to kill Barry's mother he lost his speed, so he wants to use the Flash's speed to send him back to his time.So him not killing isn't because it's out of character for him to use phasing, it's just he has a good reason for it. He legit was going to kill flash via phasing after he ruined his way home but was stopped because his ancestor(Eddie Thawne) killed himself which caused Eobard to be erased from existence. He also used it on Cisco, so I don't see why he won't use it here.

No Caption Provided

He also was going to use it on Oliver after telling him he lives to be 86 years old, but was stopped by the Flash.

The only times I saw him do it are in your 2 GIFs, and when he tried to do it to Oliver in that famous fight (Flash/Ollie/Firestorm VS Thawne). Did he ever do it to another speedster? I never saw him do it.

No, but I explained why he didn't do it to flash above. And the only other speedster he has ever faced was Black Flash, who is far faster and more powerful, and due to being the enforcer of the speed force had the power to wipe him from existence(a second time).

Speaking of what's in or out of character, another thing I know of Reverse Flash is that he's too cocky for his own good. He's a boaster, he likes to play with his food. He did it against Flash, Firestorm and Oliver when all three of them were fighting him at the same time, and there's nothing to suggest he won't do it here, which will be his downfall.

He is also smart, manipulative, cunning, and was constantly outsmarting team flash every single step of the way. When at his best he literally loses due to being wiped from existence, so it's not like his "playing around" should cause him to lose here. That said when was he playing around? He tried to kill oliver with phasing but was stopped by flash, he stomped Barry in that fight but was hit with nanites by Oliver when his back was turned, he also BFR'd Firestorm by creating a vortex. I'd say he lost that due to PIS, and I say that because of Oliver's nanites, something we never saw being stated or shown before that fight, and conveniently showing up when needed.

Also, that's still assuming he'll even get close enough to my team before they're too high up in the air.

Hancock thinks he can't be hurt, so he won't even be high in the air like you need him to be. And Viserion can be brought down by vortexes.

Flight

Still my trump card. Once my team is in the air, your team can't do jack. Sure, Sonic can jump like 10 stories high (which is what, 40 meters? Less even), but as I explained that would be a terrible idea and will only end in his death. Hancock can fly to space and Viserion can fly higher than the Wall which is 700 ft (200-something feet) high.

I only brought up Sonic's being able to jump high because Viserion is going to have to come down low to scorch the island with fire, which would allow Sonic to jump high enough to get to Viserion and kill it. Or RF can create a tornado/vortex and get Viserion to the ground. Hancock once again in character won't be high in the sky, not only because he doesn't think he needs to, but because he has no range attacks he will be fighting close to the ground.If he simply stays in the sky this whole fight then he's useless as he isn't doing anything to my team at a 700 ft+ distance.

Dude, Hancock's partner in this battle is a magical ice-demon riding a zombie dragon. To assume he won't expect some equally freaky sh!t from the other team would be fallacious.

Do Sonic and Eobard look like a zombie fire breathing dragon? No? Then while he may assume they aren't normal humans, he has no reason to think that they are capable of hurting him for no reason at all.

Moreover, his go-to move is flying. The bank robbers were just 3 dudes with guns, he didn't have to fly when he engaged them, but he still did.

Yeah but he didn't fly 700 ft in the air and just stay there to take them down, which basically what your suggesting will happen here. He may use flight in this battle but he won't be flying too far above the ground to the point where it will give him any real advantage here.

I don't see that happening, why didn't he ever do it if it's so simple?

He has never been attacked in the air, or been falling through the air while being attacked.

Furthermore, trying to phase through the Night King would probably kill him, I doubt he'd be able to withstand the sheer cold of the White Walkers:

Speedsters in general have shown resistance to extremely cold temperatures(examples being Zoom and Flash) and while I won't say he can resist it to their degree just because they can, I don't think he will be one shotted by the cold either. And vibrating has been shown to allow a speedster to deal with extreme colds, so if he is phasing then it's possible that the cold won't do much.

Our teams starting out of eye-sight means that you'll have to spend precious time looking for my team which guarantees my team to safely reach high enough to be out of your reach.

Sure, but Hancock still hasn't shown that he will just be flying away from people he fights, so he will not be abusing his flight in the way you've been suggesting.

After taking flight, Viserion will torch the island, forcing your team into a corner: it's either die screaming, try and put out the fire which will make them sitting ducks, or run away across the water which is pretty much self-BFR. Remaining on the island will also mean that Sonic's explosives will go off due to overheating and either kill him or do enough damage to make him an easy kill for my team.

Viserion isn't torching the island from 700+ ft. so if he tries it he will have to fly close to the ground which allows for him to be grounded pretty quickly by RF via creating a vortex, once that's done Sonic can kill him easy.

Hancock is easily the fastest man here.

Nope, he is easily the fastest on your team, but that's it.

His combat speed that you kept bringing up is never put to use seeing as he fights with bullrushes and raw strength/speed, and therefore it's irrelevant.

If that was the case, then Thor wouldn't be having trouble with people like Daredevil's speed. Combat speed matters, as he doesn't fight at the same speed he travels.

Hancock can't be hurt by Sonic. Your assumption that Sonic's sword can succeed where bullets failed is a baseless one at best, and even if we accept that assumption we also have to accept that Hancock doesn't give a damn about heavy artillery and therefore the sword is still useless.

He can, he has shown he can hurt stronger people and was stated by the Author to be able to kill said person.I don't see why we need to dismiss the fight with Genos.

It would be very weird and far-fetched to assume that Sonic will try to butcher him into pieces when he knows nothing on him, which will be his undoing,

No Caption Provided

Phasing seems unlikely for Reverse Flash to use in that scenario. He won't be able to reach my team quick enough to use it in the first place, and he can't even jump like Sonic. As I said, the moment the fight starts my team flies up, and Thawne will remain on the ground with no option to reach them. He's literally useless here.

You can keep saying it but it's still false. Hancock is the most useless person here given the strategy you're trying to pull, I mean he isn't superman so he can hit my team with heat vision from a distance. He will need to get close to my team to attack them and this means Thawne can just steal his heart.

How this battle will go

Viserion will be trying to abuse his flight here, and will start flying from the start. Once he gets close to my team RF can create a vortex and ground him so Sonic can just kill him. Or if you don't like that, Sonic can just jump and cut him to pieces taking him out of the fight. Hancock will try to bullrush my team but due to inferior speed this won't work, and he can be taken down through phasing or by having his head cut off. Night king can be taken down(assuming he isn't killed with Viserion) by spamming exploding shurikens.

All in all, I'm sure my team has what it takes to pull out a win here.

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#22 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000: I'll reply as soon as I can but it would probably only be on Thursday or Friday.

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#23 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000: Just might be today actually, I got home from work earlier than I expected.

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#25 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000:

Speed:

My argument is that was wasn't portrayed as the mach 4.3 speedster you're making him out to be. In his fights with mary I'd say he was at best only fighting a blur speeds(for most of it slower honestly).

Why wasn't he portrayed as such? Every time he's seen flying in the movie (or at least very nearly every time, at least 7 different times off the top of my head) it's in confirmed supersonic speeds due to creating sonic-booms. I really see no reason to assume that his other supersonic flights were any less than mach 4.3 either, really, it's just that - as I said - the one I showed you is simply the only calculable one.

His fight with Mary wasn't an all-out fight either, they were just wrestling, they might as well have stayed in the same spot all throughout the fight. Hancock was just trying to pin her down and make her calm down. He wasn't trying to blitz her, or anything like that. 99% of the fight they were grappling with each other, it's not like he had to even use his speed there. They were just erratically flying around while grappling.

So what? Just because he doesn't have multiple movies with plenty of feats doesn't mean he can't have one feat that isn't consistent with all his other showings.

It's not like he's suddenly Silver Surfer, his speed was consistently supersonic throughout the entire movie. The only one which can be almost precisely calculated is the one with the kid and it puts him at above mach 4. The moon feat is much better but can't be calculated with much precision. If I had a way to calculate his speed in his other showings it would probably have put him at the same mach 4~5 category consistently. You can't say that it isn't consistent. He doesn't have any feat that contradicts him being in that speed tier, therefore he is in that speed tier.

I'd like to point out that even if he was that fast it couldn't be applied to his combat speed, so even if the feat was legit and not inconsistent it by no means makes him the fastest here.

As I said, his combat speed is irrelevant since he never uses it. Travel speed is all he needs to bullrush your combatants into sticky muck before they can react.

I never said that, I said Flash has many outlier feats that if we were to use would scale to RF and put him leagues above Hancock in speed.

Relying on scaling off of outlier feats makes RF's feats outliers as well, or just unreliable if you like that word better, so my point still stands. You can scale RF off of standard, acceptable-average Flash, and that still won't put him above Hancock.

There is one really huge problem with all of this, and that it relies on the assumption that Hancock did all that in less than 30 seconds which is backed by the dialogue at all.Here is what is said

Ray: I've been trying to call you.

Hancock: Yeah, I was out of cell range.

That may not sound like much but those statements show that Ray had tried to call Hancock while Hancock was in space, which clearly implies Hancock was in space for a very significant amount of time if Ray could give Hancock a couple of calls on his phone and be out with Mary and his kid for a while before Hancock calls him back.

I thought the same as you at first, but then it occurred to me that... nobody noticed the huge-ass heart drawn across half of the moon up until the exact point when Hancock told Ray to look up. People should have at least noticed the heart start to take shape across the moon or something if it really did take Hancock any longer than that. As I said, you can try suggesting that the entire population of Earth in the "Hancock-Verse" is either stupid or blind to not notice something THAT huge, which is basically what you're doing by suggesting any alternate explanation to that feat other than Hancock simply doing it in any less than, I dunno... a minute, and that's a pretty wild lowball too. Ray might have tried to call Hancock right before that scene started for all we know, which still makes this feat somewhere between 20 and 30 seconds. Trying to think that NOBODY would have noticed something THAT huge for more that a minute makes less than no sense, and that can't be explained by one obscure sentence from Hancock.

In any case, it seems that I have had some technical difficulties in my last post when calculating the moon feat. I have no idea what happened but I must have typed something wrong when calculating it or something, that mach 200 was very far below the truth (I think I used this converter by accident, with taking 30 seconds as the estimated time, oops, sorry about that). Let's say it took Hancock a whole HOUR to make it to make it to the moon, draw the heart and come back to Earth. Y'know what, I won't give you the numbers but you can try for yourself here (distance to the moon and back = 786,600 kilometers, let's forget about the giant heart for now). That being said, I still think that going for calcs is the wrong way to go. RF and Sonic have their own crudely established level of speed thanks to having tons of feats to draw our conclusions from. My whole point with the speed arguments was not to put a numerical value on Hancock's speed, but to prove that he is definitely portrayed as being not only supersonic in his speed consistently, but also just as fast and probably much faster than your team, which means that he will crush them when you also consider his strength which is definitely the best around here. Call it outliers if you want, that doesn't make it so.

I don't know about you but that makes me think that it took longer than thirty for Hancock to do what he did. And even if he did (he didn't) so what? That's just travel speed, and Thor is an insanely good bit of proof that you can be insanely fast in travel speed and still be slow as hell in combat.The guy is fast enough to travel across the universe yet gets blitzed by people like wolverine and DD. Hancock's combat speed feats are inferior to Reverse Flash and Sonic's by miles, so I don't see how this is still being argued.

Thor is actually a very bad example. His travel speed is derived from Mjolnir being able to travel at those speeds while he's holding it, I mean I'm no Thor expert or anything but I don't think he can travel at those speeds WITHOUT his hammer (can he even fly independently? Not sure). In any case, as I said several times already, Hancock is a brawler, he will just bullrush into his enemies and either turn them to muck or wrestle them down with his very superior strength. It won't come down to a boxing match.

Quote where I said that.

As I said above, scaling RF off of Flash's own outlier feats makes those scales outliers as well. It's like me scaling Kraven off of Spider-Man beating Firelord, or Batman off of Deathstroke breaking Kyle Rayner's wrist.

He was only tagged by Oliver's arrows when he was caught off guard( the first time when he had just thrown Flash as seen in my opener, and the second when he just had been blasted by firestorm off of the Star Labs building which is also in my opener) when you look at the context you can see that's not a low showing.

They are very low showings. He was supposed to be able to hear the bowstring (us viewers clearly do, both times). If having his back turned means that his guard is down to the point where he can be tagged by an arrow, then he's pretty much fodder here.

If we went by high end feats RF would be over 10x than Hancock, so you aren't doing yourself any favors here.

Except I'm not going by high-end feats. Going by high-end feats is a petty argument. Hancock has an established level of speed that was never once contradicted in the entire movie.

It's common sense that the guy who's best feats are massively inferior to my team's is the fastest man here? I don't see how but maybe the voters will.

Maybe.

Still not sure how you can say that though, there are many calcs for how fast the cw flash is, and there are more than just what I've shown that more than blow yours out of the water.Unless mach 200 is somehow better than being mach 30,000 now. As for common sense, again how? He is barely supersonic in travel speed, and has no combat speed feats to say he is supersonic there too. And even if he did, so what? Reverse Flash has fodderized Barry allen who was faster able to move above mach 2, and Sonic is able to move so fast that people who are supersonic can't even perceive his movements.Genos had to have his speed enhanced to keep up with a not serious sonic, but when he does get serious he still can't see him (while sonic isn't even going full speed I might add). Hancock has some physical advantages in this fight, but speed is not one of them.

Because my clacs aren't based on outliers. Again, as I said, I'm not going to try and calc the moon feat, but it's certainly enough to put Hancock in the same speed league as anyone here at the very least. If you wanna claim that RF is mach 30k then go on ahead, I'm sure the voters will know that it's an outlier and highballing. I'm not saying that Hancock IS mach 200, I'm saying that he's definitely up in the same speed category as your guys if not outright above that. Even mach 4.3, which is FAR below his moon feat, is just as fast or even faster than what your team can do without using outliers. Even putting Hancock at mach 10, which is a serious lowball, means that he is the fastest man here by far. To be completely fair, both with you and with the voters, I will lowball the heck out of Hancock and put his top speed at mach ~10 give or take. I'll let the voters decide what they will out of this.

Also S3 Flash has an even better speed feat than that would put him over mach 100,000 in speed because he and supergirl were fast enough to put some sonic device on all the Dominators in the country. You aren't doing yourself any favors by bringing up calcs.

Look at what I said above about my mistake when calculating that moon feat last time.

Here eobard moves so fast that he makes it look not only like he and wells are two different people(by constantly switching costumes through speed) but makes it look like he is being beaten up by RF.This is far more impressive than catching a falling kid IMO.And even if it isn't it doesn't matter, eobard uses tachyon enhancement after to make himself even faster, so that is by no means RF at his fastest.

Those are 2 very different feats so I don't know how you can even begin to compare them, it's almost like apples and oranges. Also, the feat was never Hancock CATCHING the kid, it was going up that high and back down in 3 seconds.

You'd have to move at more than mach 2 to be FTE to someone who is mach 1, because mach 2 is only twice the speed of sound, and it would be straight up crazy to think that Sonic is only going 2x the speed Genos is able to go when he moves FTE to him. And we have to remember even before being enhanced Genos was able to move at FTE speeds and stalemate Sea King in speed, so him being his parts improved and not being able to perceive Sonic is really impressive. Even when Sea King got more powerful and faster due to being in the rain he still was too slow to catch Sonic(he too couldn't perceive Sonic), meanwhile has Hancock even shown he can go FTE?

First of all, I just wanna point out that you put all those people at supersonic even without proving it, and I was nice enough to let it pass. You haven't posted a single feat for Genos or all those other people you use to scale Sonic, and for all we know they might not even be mach 1 in speed. It may be obvious to people who watch the series/read the manga, but I'm not one of those people, and not establishing the level of the characters that you use in your scaling isn't something I should have let pass (it's true for RF too by the way).

In any case, how do you know how fast Sonic has to be to be FTE to people who are (maybe or maybe not) supersonic themselves? Did you try it yourself or something? You're making stuff up now, this isn't even calculable. You can't know how fast Sonic is, he can be mach 1.5 for all we know. Hancock is not any less fast than Sonic, I think you're highballing the hell out of him, what I've seen from him so far isn't all that amazing.

And also, yeah of course Hancock is FTE... look at the feat with the kid again for example:

No Caption Provided

The 2 other kids weren't even able to see him coming back down. It's almost like he teleported.

Even when going far below his top speed, when picking off the robbers, none of the robbers was able to see him and it appears that none of the hostages either:

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There is no way he is going less than mach four while creating ten perfect clones of himself via speed.

Again, you're making things up. How do you even prove such a thing? How do you begin to put a numeric value on something like that? It might be mach 2 for all we know.

You use that and I use Flash's speed feat that puts him over mach 100,000 in speed, which once again scales to Reverse Flash.

See above, mach 100 isn't really a threat. I wasn't going to put Hancock at those levels anyway, it was just to show you that there's no way around putting him at the same level as your guys at the very very least.

You don't hear sonic booms, it sound more like wind rustling because of how fast he is moving. And I don't see a reason to think he was holding back his speed, since even moving at blur speeds would enough to kill a person. It's possible he took them out similar to how Superman did that guy who was about to kill Lois in BvS.

You can literally see the sonic booms he's creating there though. Go to 0:40 in the video. And also, that's actually exactly what a sonic boom sounds like.

He was definitely holding back though. 2:43 - "I'm really trying to turn over a new leaf". Heck, he didn't even have to come into the bank and negotiate, he could have just swooped down and take Red Parker like he did all the rest of them (which would have killed all the hostages probably, but Hancock didn't know that at the time).

The speed at which you bullrush someone isn't the same speed at which your raw travel speed is regardless.

Uh... why exactly? Yo bullrush someone is to ram onto them as hard as you can. Maybe you have another word for it, but that was what I meant when saying "bullrush" and I believe that's how most people see it too.

And he will have trouble tagging RF and Sonic due to the fact that they can easily react to supersonic attacks. I already shown Sonic can dodge boulders thrown at supersonic speeds easily with a smile on his face, and Flash has picked bullets out of the air while they were moving in slow motion, so even if he bullrushes at supersonic speeds he will have a hard time tagging them(especially when you remember they are much more maneuverable with their speed than hancock).

First of all, you have shown Sonic dodge boulders, you never proved how fast they really were moving. That's a serious blow to your feats' reliability, as I said earlier. For all we know, the boulders being "supersonic" (if they really were such), can mean they're only mach 1.000000001. Not saying much.

And even the fastest bullets in the world move slower than Hancock, and assuming you were talking about this scene those bullets weren't near as fast as the fastest bullets in the world so I don't see how that helps your case.

And it isn't like he always enters fights just blitzing people right off the bat anyway.

The only real fight he ever had on-screen was against Mary and as I said they just wrestled with each other, not to mention that Mary is his equal/superior so he couldn't blitz her even if he wanted to. But picking off those bank robbers IS indeed a blitz, so yeah, he does blitz in character.

No, it just seemed weird that I have to prove Sonic isn't only able to move at the speed of sound when my opener already proved he can move faster than it.

Alright.

NOT taking out Viserion:

I mean he as pretty much done just that to giant snake in one of the filler episodes(which is fair game due to the tourney rules).

Fair enough, but in that scene he didn't have another speedster to contend with. Even if he goes all Fruit Ninja on Viserion, Hancock will just be able to get him much easier. That being said, I still think that Sonic won't be able to reach Viserion quick enough, and even if he jumps it will be suicide as I already explained.

and you have to remember our teams have no knowledge on each other.That means your team has no reason to think that they need to stay as high in the sky as you keep suggesting.

Why is that? The most natural opening move they can take is flying up high to get a view on the battlefield, there's no reason to assume they won't do that. They will quickly realize that they are facing two non-fliers which means that utilizing their aerial superiority would be the smartest thing to do.

And while I do believe Viserion will be in the air(I mean it is a dragon) Reverse Flash could get it to the ground by creating a vortex as he is more than fast enough to do it.

When Viserion gets close enough he will do this, making it hard to stay in the air and cause it to crash. Once that's done Sonic will slice it to pieces.

Other than the fact that the vortex, as I said in my last post, literally makes Thawne a sitting duck - it was also unable to pull Flash. What makes you think that it will be able to pull a dragon that's hundreds of times heavier than Barry? And it's not like Flash was even running away from the vortex either, he was just standing his ground. That's a pretty poor vortex if I'm being honest.

He is more than fast enough to react to Hancock, but even if that did give Hancock the chance what do you think Reverse flash will be doing? He is able to distract Hancock(who I still don't believe would be in the air like your plan needs him to be) while Sonic deals with Viserion.

Why would Hancock go off chasing someone who's literally no threat to him as long as he's on the ground instead of taking out the guy who's a threat to his teammate?

It has no reason to think that Reverse Flash or Sonic have the means to kill it, being smarter than medieval humans doesn't mean it can see the future.

That's a very lame argument, no offense. You're assuming that he's going to take unnecessary risks just because he doesn't know your team. On the contrary, not knowing what to expect will make my team all the more wary.

Oh come on. The guy who believes he is indestructible is going to fly to orbit is going to orbit over someone that looks like a comic con cosplayer and a guy with a sword?

Of course he isn't gonna go to orbit, I said that he CAN do it because he's FAST enough to do it. He will fly high though, like he always does (like he did against the bank robbers even though he didn't have to).

He has no reason to do that, because he doesn't know they can kill them. The legit first rule of this tourney is that these are random encounters, and unless Speed O' Sound Sonic and RF made an appearance in Hancock that I'm not aware of this would mean he isn't going to be keeping his distance.

OK cool. So neither RF nor Sonic have any reason to use their speed either over someone who they never even heard of. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. That's a lame argument, as I said.

Sure, but to torch the island he is going to have to fly low close to the ground( but above the trees obviously), so he can jump to viserion's height if needed.

Good point, but not true. Viserion is actually very easily capable of flying above Sonic's height cap and still torch the island. The directors of "Game of Thrones" said that Daenerys's dragons are as big as Boeing 747 airplanes (source), which means over 70 meters long. 10 stories high means at best 40 meters high.

And as you can see, Viserion breathes fire over a distance which is a lot longer than his own body:

No Caption Provided

And that flame was still powerful enough to destroy the Wall. It will torch a densely wooded island in seconds.

When I say jump I don't mean he will just jump up vertically into the air, otherwise you would be right.

Then... he won't be able to reach as high as he needs to. Cool. And he will still drop none the faster than any other object of his mass. Cool.

No but he doesn't need to, because of his high speed homing exploding shurikens. They can lock onto fast targets like Tatsumaki, so it can definitely lock onto Viserion who isn't anywhere near as fast.

But will they even bother him? I don't see why they should. If they're as powerful as his regular explosives then they won't do much good.

You agreed that he is faster than bullets but it's worth mentioning bullets don't piece like knives or swords do. Kevlar can stop bullets, but a knife would go through it just fine.Being bulletproof doesn't mean he can resist having his head cut off by something with more speed and power than a bullet has.

Or... the sword would just break in two? You DID see Hancock's own fingernails not even breaking his skin even though they can cut right through bulletproof glass and concrete walls right? The sword is just regular steel (if it isn't then you didn't point it out which is a shame) and there's no reason to believe that this steel will be able to break Hancock's skin before it breaks itself. ESPECIALLY considering it's a katana which is very delicate compared to other types of swords.

Sure he did,but that doesn't change the fact that he did what he did to save Genos' life.

That's not a fact, that's your theory. But nice way of trying to twist it.

That's a fair point, but the thing is, he knows what Sonic can do, and he knows what Genos can do, seeing as how he has seen them both fight as well as fought them. I'd think that would mean he would know what it takes to beat genos, especially since he has seen him lose in battle. But if you don't want to accept it then there is ONE's having stated that Sonic with his weapons would have beaten Sea King. This matters, because Sea King and Genos were about on par with each other in their fight so for Sonic to be able to kill Deep Sea King should at the very least make it not hard to believe he can beat Genos too. And just in case you intend to bring up the fact that his sword isn't his only weapon it should be brought up that he was taking blasts from Genos(which are far more powerful than Sonic's explosive shurikens) so the only way he could have killed him would have been with his sword.

That's yet another cute little theory but just a theory nonetheless. I'm starting to sense a pattern here, you making things up and taking them as if they were facts.

The best part in all of this though, is that ONE (whoever he is, I'm guessing the creator) also said in that very same page you linked that the fight between Genos and Sonic would end in a tie. So there's the answer to all your cute little theories - they're false. Sonic, with all his speed and all his strength and whatnot, can't pierce Genos with his sword. Genos's piercing duarbility isn't above Hancock's, so there you have it.

No he wasn't,he was knocked to the ground by Saitama to save him from having his head cut off by Sonic.

Eh, matters little, my point still stands.

There really is no way of knowing if he is applying the same amount of force to his skin as he is to the other stuff.

First of all he was barely applying any force when cutting the glass/steel/concrete. On the contrary, he was being delicate when he carved these drawings on the wall, like people do when they're drawing, y'know. Second, there's also no way of knowing if he was applying any more force to the other stuff than he did his skin. You gotta stop with these double standards.

The guys shooting genos had machine guns, so I'd imagine Genos and Hancock were no selling similar stuff.

No, they had SUB machine guns, very big difference. Sub machine guns are these things:

No Caption Provided

50 caliber heavy machine guns are these things.

If he can take down Sea King(as stated by ONE) with said sword then he can without a doubt do more piercing damage then bullets.

See above. According to your ONE, Sonic wouldn't have defeated Genos, and secondly heavy artillery is > sub machine guns.

As I said, the sword would do nothing to Hancock. Maybe annoy him a little bit.

Because Deep Sea King is leagues above Hancock in durability feats.The guy took a punch from Genos that sent him through a missile-proof shelter as well as a couple buildings and was back into the fight in seconds, claiming that it just made him mad.

You contradict yourself. First you say that Hancock is more powerful than Sonic, then you say that Sonic can harm Hancock despite Mary, who is Hancock's equal/superior, not being able to harm him. In any case, I think that this feat from my opener is better than what you described DSK doing:

No Caption Provided

Not only no-selling, but also not moving an inch when being hit by a speeding train.

Or this one which I already posted as well:

No Caption Provided

Hancock jumped from a 10+ story window while depowered and injured, and got up just fine, he even got his powers back and healed shortly after that.

Fire:

He legit was teaching Barry how to do it, maybe it's just me, but I would think that if you're able to teach someone how to do something then you would know how to not only do it yourself, but do it better then they did.

Again, I don't see how that very simple technique can be categorized to determine who can do it "better".

Sure, but the thing you have to remember is that Barry did that with his arms, if he created a vortex with his body he would be able to put out a bigger fire.

The vortex he created above was pretty unimpressive, it barely managed to move a human.

Unless he is inside the vortex, which would be removing the air around him and inside his lungs.

Viserion won't be caught inside such a weak vortex. And I don't know what makes you think that a zombie needs to breathe in the first place.

Also, again I'll say that I doubt that he can use vacuum to put out a fire in an open environment in the first place.

Sonic can cause a distraction, even if it's just throwing shurikens at Viserion, or going for cutting off Hancock's head. Hell with Sonic's speed I'm confident that he could distract both Hancock and Viserion for at least five seconds.

Why would Hancock go after the distraction when he has a sitting duck in front of him? It's not like Sonic can hurt him or anything.

They have the same powerset, it isn't like I'm saying Eobard will throw lighting at your team, which is an ability that we have no way of knowing he can do. Eobard has created vortexes with his speed in combat, so I don't see why we need to assume he won't.

So you express your doubt at Hancock flying in this fight, but using a vortex to put out a fire in the middle of a fight, which is something Eobard has never done, is suddenly acceptable? Double standards much?

He has a partner, and anyway I don't even think my team needs to put out the fire. They can fight on the beach part, and if they need more room to dodge they can run on the water and get to another part of the island.Really fire is only a distraction at best, and isn't going to take down my team.

The fire is going to engulf the entire place very quickly, and the beach is a very small part of the island where your team will have very little room to run around:

No Caption Provided

They're gonna have the water at their backs and sides, and a burning oblivion in front of them. They'll be easy targets.

No, I'm saying if they ever need more room that they can run on water.

Yeah but once they're on the water they have to keep running or they'll just sink. They can't fight on water, the best they can do is try and run away/dodge which isn't going to work.

Lol, no. Also the water and sand in the location could be used to put out the fire, which is something I feel the need to bring up.

How exactly will you use the water and sand to put out the fire? Grab handfuls and throw them at the fire one by one? I don't know, last time I checked you didn't have any other option. So yeah good luck with that.

He threw them at the ground right below where he was standing.

Am I just to take your word for it? Posting the feats that you talk of is something that you should do usually. In any case, let's say I believe this and you're not twisting it around like you did many other things. How many explosions were there? How close was he actually to them when they went off? Too many questions left unanswered here. You can't compare that to having ALL the explosives that he carries go off at the same time while they're on his person.

The ones that were hit by it seem to have been taken down, so I'm wondering why that even matters.

Oh no lol, the ones that were taken down weren't White Walkers, they were wights. Here's the full scene so you can see it better. As you can see there were only 4 White Walkers (including the Night King himself) and they weren't so much as bothered by the fire bombs, the only ones that were harmed were wights. Fire is one of the only things that can kill a wight (Viserion, who is a dragon wight is obviously an exception seeing as he literally breathes fire).

So Sonic can slice and dice him too? Cool.

No, Hancock will do for Sonic before that happens. Also, as I said, there's no indication that the explosives will even bother Viserion so I doubt it will even come to the Night King falling to the ground.

I know, and I am sure Sonic isn't stupid enough to get close enough to the fire so they overheat. Even so he won't be knocked out by them.

Sonic will undoubtedly try and get away from the fire, the problem is that he will have nowhere to go once the fire engulfs the entire island.

Phasing:

If you're referring to the Flash then there is a really good reason for that.

I'm referring to anyone who can challenge/surpass him speed-wise. Even Firestorm. Why didn't he do it against him?

He also was going to use it on Oliver after telling him he lives to be 86 years old, but was stopped by the Flash.

Yes, and he would have done it to Oliver too if not for his cocky personality which gave Barry the chance to intervene.

He is also smart, manipulative, cunning, and was constantly outsmarting team flash every single step of the way. When at his best he literally loses due to being wiped from existence, so it's not like his "playing around" should cause him to lose here. That said when was he playing around? He tried to kill oliver with phasing but was stopped by flash, he stomped Barry in that fight but was hit with nanites by Oliver when his back was turned, he also BFR'd Firestorm by creating a vortex. I'd say he lost that due to PIS, and I say that because of Oliver's nanites, something we never saw being stated or shown before that fight, and conveniently showing up when needed.

He could have attacked Barry before Firestorm and Green Arrow even showed up, but chose to exchange trash-talk. He could have just killed Oliver with phasing too, but didn't because he just HAD to give him that "86 years old" speech. Then after Barry knocks him away he continues to taunt him instead of just charging at him immediately. He let himself be lured into a trap instead of just getting the whole thing over with. And that's just one fight, I'm sure I can find more examples of him being that cocky if I look for them. CW villains tend to be that way.

Hancock thinks he can't be hurt, so he won't even be high in the air like you need him to be. And Viserion can be brought down by vortexes.

No, and no.

Flight:

I only brought up Sonic's being able to jump high because Viserion is going to have to come down low to scorch the island with fire

As I proved above, that is false.

Sonic to jump high enough to get to Viserion and kill it.

Trying that would be suicide.

Or RF can create a tornado/vortex and get Viserion to the ground.

If only he could. If only he had ever done something like that in the first place.

Hancock once again in character won't be high in the sky,

False argument (he did it against the bank robbers), and very lame too (you're applying double standards).

not only because he doesn't think he needs to, but because he has no range attacks he will be fighting close to the ground.If he simply stays in the sky this whole fight then he's useless as he isn't doing anything to my team at a 700 ft+ distance.

He will swoop down when he attacks then soar up again, like he did against the bank robbers. Simple. Giving up his aerial superiority would be a dumb idea.

Do Sonic and Eobard look like a zombie fire breathing dragon? No? Then while he may assume they aren't normal humans, he has no reason to think that they are capable of hurting him for no reason at all.

If that's really the only argument you have to resort to then I don't really see how you have a hope of winning this.

Yeah but he didn't fly 700 ft in the air and just stay there to take them down, which basically what your suggesting will happen here. He may use flight in this battle but he won't be flying too far above the ground to the point where it will give him any real advantage here.

He flew high enough in the air to be inaccessible to both your combatants. He doesn't have to go 700 ft high to go above Sonic's height cap of ~40 meters.

He has never been attacked in the air, or been falling through the air while being attacked.

OK, let's assume he does do it. He phases so Hancock can't murk him, and then he hits the ground. He won't phase through the ground, just like he didn't phase through it here:

No Caption Provided

And he may survive the fall but he will still be pretty dazed from it like he was after being blasted by Firestorm, so he will be the easiest target for Hancock/Viserion/the Night King to kill.

Speedsters in general have shown resistance to extremely cold temperatures(examples being Zoom and Flash) and while I won't say he can resist it to their degree just because they can, I don't think he will be one shotted by the cold either. And vibrating has been shown to allow a speedster to deal with extreme colds, so if he is phasing then it's possible that the cold won't do much.

Key word underlined. It's POSSIBLE, which makes this argument yet another work of your theorycraft, which has a pretty poor track record as it is. In any case, there's cold and there's cold. White Walkers shatter steel by touching it. I don't see Thawne trying to phase through the Night King without losing an arm.

I mean, he gave Bran Stark a magical frostbite by touching him (through the shirt, for less than a second) and Bran wasn't even "really" there (it was a vision).

Sure, but Hancock still hasn't shown that he will just be flying away from people he fights, so he will not be abusing his flight in the way you've been suggesting.

You keep telling yourself that.

Viserion isn't torching the island from 700+ ft. so if he tries it he will have to fly close to the ground which allows for him to be grounded pretty quickly by RF via creating a vortex, once that's done Sonic can kill him easy.

Again, where did you bring this 700 ft from? Is it because I said that Viserion can fly that high? Sure he can, but he doesn't have to. He can fly 70-80 meters high and still torch the entire island just fine while being outside of Sonic's reach.

If that was the case, then Thor wouldn't be having trouble with people like Daredevil's speed. Combat speed matters, as he doesn't fight at the same speed he travels.

He doesn't fight like Thor though. He can just fly at top speed, grab Sonic/Thawne and drown them in the sea. Easy.

How this battle will REALLY go:

My team starts by just soaring upward without your team being able to do anything about it due to not knowing where my team is. Then, Viserion will torch the entire island, which he can do easily while still being too high for Sonic to jump at him. If Sonic does try to jump, not only will it do him no good, he will also essentially commit suicide because being in the air means he will be a sitting duck for my team's aerial superiority.

Either way, your team might be able to avoid the fire for a while but soon enough it will engulf the entire island. Sonic's explosives will overheat and blow up all at once while they're still on him. Your team might try to run on the water/run to the small beach but that will hinder their maneuverability a great deal and make them easy targets for my team.

Hancock is not only the strongest and most durable man here by far, he is also just as fast if not faster than either man on your team. He can, and will, beat either Sonic or Thawne individually if the fire doesn't do for them. Sonic may try to kill him with his sword or something but that won't work thanks to his superior durability. Thawne might try to phase but there's nothing to suggest that he will since he's never done it against a foe with speed to challenge his own, and also I don't see him even getting to it before Hancock murks him.

The Night King will resurrect the first man on your team to die, then the newly-made wight will help my team win.

Additional final points that I want to repeat:

  • As for speed, your main argument was that Hancock's superior speed is inconsistent/an outlier. His calculable mach 4.3 feat is actually very consistent with the rest of his showings, and the one speed feat that he has that might be considered an outlier (the moon feat), is SO far above the level of speed of anyone else here that even if we take away 90% of it, Hancock is still by far the fastest man here. Nevertheless, I used this feat not for the numerical value it has, but just to show the level at which Hancock is portrayed at, which is no lesser than that of Sonic or RF, and probably even above it.
  • You were scaling Sonic's speed off of other characters, while not providing any single feat for those characters' own speed. You claim they're all supersonic without putting your money where your mouth is, which is pretty low. I could have asked for proof and I'm sure I would have found arguments against Sonic's speed if you'd have posted it, but I chose to take your word for it. Regardless, none of the feats that Sonic has can be determined and numerically estimated. For all we know it could be mach 2, which is still far below Hancock. You use examples like after-images and such and say that it's far better than Hancock's speed even though there's no way to even compare those feats seeing as they're so different from one another.
  • You were theorizing quite a lot here. And the interview you yourself provided outright contradicted the point you were trying to make about Sonic being able to harm Hancock with his blade.
  • You were questioning my team doing very basic things like flying while you yourself tried to apply other characters' tactics and abilities to your team. You never once questioned your own team doing exactly what you want them to while you were questioning mine, which is double standards.
  • Another thing to bring up is that you established yourself a gameplan/strategy in the very first post and just abandoned it when you realized it won't work. Being fair would have been sticking to the strategy you stated that you'd use instead of having second thoughts once you were proven wrong, it's not really something you get to do normally in debates but I let it go because I really think my team wins anyway.
  • All of the above being said, I'd still like to point out that I think you really did a good job mate. Your team is strong and you know your players very well, and you did make good arguments. It wasn't an easy debate in the slightest and I really enjoyed it regardless of who's going to win. Plus, it's not every day that I see someone who posts as quickly as you, which is also nice. I'd like to debate with you again in the future if we get the chance.

@sirfizzwhizz I think you can open this for votes.

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#26 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

All of the above being said, I'd still like to point out that I think you really did a good job mate. Your team is strong and you know your players very well, and you did make good arguments. It wasn't an easy debate in the slightest and I really enjoyed it regardless of who's going to win. Plus, it's not every day that I see someone who posts as quickly as you, which is also nice. I'd like to debate with you again in the future if we get the chance.

Thanks, and same here.

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#27 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#29 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio

@fc_tsukihanami: You had commented on this, so are you interested in voting?

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#30 Posted by deactivated-5b466be4b5981 (3660 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000: I'll read/vote on this later. Maybe tomorrow or this weekend.

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#31 Posted by OptimusPalm (2348 posts) - - Show Bio

Good debate.

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#32 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

Boomp.

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#33 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by deactivated-5a5a6b5b2407e (1152 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote goes to @the_red_viper. Watcher's team relied on too heavily on being faster than the opponent and had no other plan outside of using speed. And while yes, his team is fast, he failed to show that they are as fast as he thought they were and failed to disprove that Hancock was faster. Watcher's showings for Sonic's speed were pretty weak he had no definite proof that Sonic is hypersonic and Reverse Flash's only way of damaging the opponents seemed to have phasing which is hard to do against people that are in the air. Viper on the other hand showed that his team had every advantage and had a better strategy on top of that.

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#35 Edited by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote goes to @the_red_viper. Watcher's team relied on too heavily on being faster than the opponent and had no other plan outside of using speed. And while yes, his team is fast, he failed to show that they are as fast as he thought they were and failed to disprove that Hancock was faster. Watcher's showings for Sonic's speed were pretty weak he had no definite proof that Sonic is hypersonic and Reverse Flash's only way of damaging the opponents seemed to have phasing which is hard to do against people that are in the air. Viper on the other hand showed that his team had every advantage and had a better strategy on top of that.

Thanks for the vote my friend.

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#36 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote goes to @the_red_viper. Watcher's team relied on too heavily on being faster than the opponent and had no other plan outside of using speed. And while yes, his team is fast, he failed to show that they are as fast as he thought they were and failed to disprove that Hancock was faster. Watcher's showings for Sonic's speed were pretty weak he had no definite proof that Sonic is hypersonic and Reverse Flash's only way of damaging the opponents seemed to have phasing which is hard to do against people that are in the air. Viper on the other hand showed that his team had every advantage and had a better strategy on top of that.

Thanks for voting, is there anything you thought I could have done better with?

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#37 Posted by deactivated-5a5a6b5b2407e (1152 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000: You were awesome. Better than me that's for sure. You could have made a better plan but that's about it. The problem is that your team had a massive disadvantage from the start. Viper had 2 flyers and your team had little aerial mobility. If the location had been a dense city with high buildings you would have had an easier time but the location was an island with trees that didn't reach high enough which made Viper's team even deadlier because of the fire.

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#38 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#39 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

Boomp

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#40 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Could you tag some people maybe? Doesn't look like we're about to get more votes.

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#42 Posted by shirso (3848 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, will try.

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#44 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16187 posts) - - Show Bio

Voting for @watcher5000. I can explain why later, if you want.

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#45 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#48 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#49 Posted by OptimusPalm (2348 posts) - - Show Bio

You guys need votes. I made a comment a few days ago just to say I think this was a good debate, because I read the whole thing as it was progressing. But I was reluctant to vote because personally I feel the teams are a bit unfair (I think Hancock should be higher than a 3).

However, as you need votes, i'll vote now. And i'll ignore my feelings stated above.

My vote is for TRV. Overall he had a more convincing battleplan and provided better proof that it would work. He also countered W5000 in a more convincing way.

Although W5000's battleplan and counters were solid, he didnt convince me that his team could take down Hancock.

Overall I gotta say well done to both of you because this was a great read, and you both responded to every point made by each other. And you both always answered within a few days which kept me interested in the battle.

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#50 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio

@optimuspalm: Thank you for voting and explaining why you voted for who you did.