Mary Walker is a mutant with dissociative personality disorder. Her powers include telekinesis, telepathy, and pyrokinesis. She is also a highly skilled martial artist and assassin and often wields a katana. She has gone up against people like Wolverine, Punisher, Spider-Man, Ghost Rider, Daredevil, Taskmaster, Jessica Jones, Black Panther, Deadpool, Luke Cage, and Kingpin. Here is her CV page for more information.
Physicals
Before I get into her powers, I'm going to talk about her physicals and stats, which are quite impressive.
Strong enough to stab clean through Wolverine while falling from a building. (Note: Wolverine has insane durability, including of the piercing variety, due to his adamantium skeleton.)
Mary's physicals are good, but her powers are where she will really shine in this fight. Telepathy is limited to mind-reading and she has never demonstrated that, so I will skip it; we won't need it anyways. I'll cover her telekinesis and pyrokinesis.
For telekinesis, she mostly uses it on small objects like swords, knives, and projectiles:
As you can see from her feats, she uses a mix of close-quarters combat and powers when fighting opponents. It is very much in character for her to use her pyrokinesis in a fight.
Elektra
Introduction
Elektra shouldn't need much of an introduction, but here is her CV page anyways.
She is considered to be one of, if not the most, dangerous assassins on Earth. People like Punisher, Wolverine, Iron Man, and Batroc have stated how dangerous and skilled she is. But let's get into her actual feats.
Physicals
Strength:
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1) Slices a guy in half
2) Karate chops through 7 layers of concrete bricks
3) Punches through a man and the concrete wall behind him
4) A casual kick snaps a robot's neck
5) Stabs and lifts two adult men over herself
Durability/Pain Tolerance:
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1) Tanks 2 blasts from Skrull Cyclops
2-3) She's fine and continues to fight after being kicked off a building
4) Doesn't even flinch after getting an arrow to the shoulder
5) Survives being stabbed through the heart and manages to walk a few blocks to Matt Murdock's apartment
Speed:
Elektra is one of the most consistent bullet-timers around. Here are some of her best bullet-dodging feats:
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1) While completely surrounded by multiple gunmen, she dodges every bullet fired at her
2) Deflects bullets with her sais
3-4) Dodges a sniper shot
5) Dodges more sniper shots by reacting to the muzzle flash
6) Cuts a bullet in half that was fired by Black Widow
Not only that, but she is extremely acrobatic and agile, and she loves to blitz people.
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1-2) Catches a knife while her back was turned
3) By the age of 15, she was an Olympic-level gymnast
4) She swipes a gun from Punisher before he can even react
5) Blitzes a guy from several feet away before he can finish a word
6) Too fast for Wolverine
7) Blitzes a group of armed men before any of them can even fire
She is stealthy and fast enough to disappear from Daredevil (despite his enhanced senses), from Stick (despite his extensive training and skill), and from Red Hulk & Ghost Rider.
Before I get into her sais, here are some of Elektra's best fights:
She uses shuriken as well, and she is extremely precise and deadly with them.
That about sums up Elektra. For now.
FOX Azazel
Azazel is able to teleport himself and others in quick succession
He is a skilled fighter and swordsman who wields 2 swords
His prehensile tail is sharp enough to pierce humans with ease and strong enough to support the weight of an adult male
He was easily able to take down a squad of roughly two dozen armed CIA agents
He is fast enough to react to gunfire and teleport out of the way of Havok's blasts
He is also strong, fast, and skilled enough to hold the upper hand in a 1v2 fight against Beast & Havok, and was about to kill Beast if not for the intervention of Mystique.
Note how his first tactic against the CIA agents and Beast was to teleport them into the air. As you can see from the video at 0:17, he teleports well above the clouds, which is at least several hundred feet into the air. This is a fall that instantly killed the agents upon impact with the ground or building.
The final part of Azazel's introduction is a scaling from Beast. Their fight begins at 1:28 in the video. Beast has superhuman strength, durability, speed, and agility. Here are some GIFs to demonstrate Beast's abilities:
Ragdolls Wolverine, a grown adult male with an adamantium skeletonRagdolls an unsuspecting Magneto and almost manages to drown him. Note how the impact from this attack caused Magneto to bleed from the back of his head, which is noticeable when he is in the water. Catches a car thrown by Storm, spins around with it, and tosses it back several dozens of feet away
And finally, in his fight against Psylocke, Beast was able to evade the majority of her deadly attacks, and managed to grab her and toss her several dozens of feet up into the air and on top of a building.
Beast doesn't have any notable speed feats other than being able to run around the entire X-Mansion in a matter of seconds. We can also scale his speed based on his fights against Wolverine, Psylocke, and the fodder Brotherhood mutants in X3.
Despite Beast's strength and agility, Azazel held the upper hand against him in their fight and almost succeeded in killing him without the use of his swords.
Perks
Basic Knowledge
This provides my team with the knowledge of your team members that can be found on a Wikia page. This allows us to know the history, powers, abilities, equipment, and weaknesses of everyone on your team. You have this perk as well, so neither of us are going into the battle completely blind. However, I have two other perks that put your team at a disadvantage against mine...
15 Minutes of Prep
During the 15 minutes of prep, my team will discuss their powers and abilities, discuss their opponents' powers and abilities, survey the environment, prioritize our targets, and come up with a strategy. This is an advantage my team has over yours, since you do not have any prep at all. You are unable to plan a strategy, discuss everyone's abilities, plant the C4s, and survey the environment. It is somewhat of a complex environment, so this puts you at a disadvantage against my team. Essentially, we have the element of surprise.
Decent Teamwork
This perk allows my team to be willing to work together as allies. This is great for me because it is unlikely that anyone on my team would have worked together without this perk. It also gives me an advantage over your team because Jason Todd would NOT work with the others. I'm not sure about Roy, and IIRC, Katana and Killer Croc have worked together in the past. Therefore, only 2-3 out of your 4 team members will be willing to work with each other during the fight.
Earpieces
Their only purpose is to keep in communication during the fight, which will result in better coordination and teamwork.
Strategy
There are 3 steps to the strategy that my team will use to beat your team.
Step 1: As shown in his battle against the CIA agents and like he attempted with Beast, it is very much in character for Azazel to teleport people into the air, which will result in them falling to their deaths. This technically isn't BFR since you aren't leaving the battlefield, you're just going far up and back down with a high enough velocity to cause instant death upon impact on the ground :) Kevd4wg also gave me the okay for this.
Jason & Roy are the most immediate threats due to their ranged attacks. Katana and Killer Croc need to get close in order to be a threat. Therefore, our priority will be Jason > Roy > Katana > Killer Croc. Based on the video I presented before, Azazel can easily grab, teleport, and drop each of you one at a time within a matter of seconds. I highly doubt that anyone except Killer Croc would be able to survive a fall like this. Even if they do somehow manage to survive, they will be severely damaged and weakened.
Step 2: This is more of a back-up plan in case anyone survives the drop or one of you somehow manages to stop Azazel, which I highly doubt will happen. This step involves Typhoid Mary combusting your gear, one at a time. Mary has shown many times to be able to instantly combust people and objects, and since Kev said I can't directly use it on organic matter, Mary will go for your weapons. The priority will be the same as from the first step. Jason's C4 (which will cause them to explode) and guns, Roy's bow, Katana's katana. This will leave 3/4 of you completely weaponless, which severely affects their combat capabilities. Which leads us to the final step...
Step 3: The Slaughter. If you manage to survive the fall, you will be weakened and injured. Your gear and weapons will then be destroyed. This leaves you vulnerable to an attack by Elektra, which she will be waiting to do the moment the first two steps are completed. As I have shown in her section, she has the physicals, skills, and weapons to take all of you out given that you have no weapons to defend yourselves. Elektra will initiate the attack on Killer Croc, since he is the most dangerous opponent due to the fact that he: 1) doesn't use weapons and thus isn't "disabled" like the others are, and 2) likely won't be too injured from the fall given his superhuman durability. Typhoid Mary and Azazel will focus on taking out the others, and once Elektra finishes with Killer Croc, she can help with the leftovers. Given how sharp her sais have been shown to be, they will definitely be able to pierce Killer Croc despite his durability.
And just like that, your entire team is dead before you can even counter.
Conclusion
Individually, I may not have the best or strongest characters of the tournament, but together with my perks and strategy, I definitely have what it takes to take out your entire team quickly and easily. Let's recap:
Typhoid Mary: Not only does she have very good physicals, but her pyrokinesis will be used to destroy all your weapons
Elektra: She may not even be needed if you can prove how your team counters the first step of my strategy, but even if you do, Elektra has the physicals and skill to kill everyone on your team.
Azazel: He may only be worth 1 point, but his teleportation tactic is very deadly to all but those with the best of durabilities. Seeing as 3/4 of your team members don't have superhuman durability, they will not survive the fall.
My perks allow my team to know who we are facing, work together, and come up with a strategy during prep. Because of our ear pieces, we can also keep communication going during the encounter.
You have a solid team, but since we have prep and decent teamwork and you don't, we hold a significant advantage over your team
Basically, everything you posted for Katana has been replicated by Elektra or could be replicated by her... Everything from unarmed combat, feats with weapons, stealth, speed, agility, skill, statements of being the greatest assassin, etc. In fact, for most of what you posted, I demonstrated to a similar degree in my opener.
The only thing Katana has over Elektra is a magical sword. However, as I demonstrated in my opener, Elektra has far superior feats of strength and durability/pain tolerance. I would also argue that Elektra's bullet-timing feats are much more impressive, as she has reacted to sniper rounds. Katana can block energy with her sword, but that isn't a huge deal in this fight.
Elektra has also fought and/or defeated far more powerful and established opponents than Katana has, i.e. Bullseye, Taskmaster, Lady Bullseye, Silver Samurai, Iron Fist, Daredevil, etc. Katana's only notable fight from what you presented is against Lady Shiva.
An injured Katana is capable of facing opponents like Shiva.
This wasn't even a legit fight. It lasted like 3 panels and wasn't conclusive at all. You can't use this to compare Katana to Lady Shiva.
Even more impressive is the fact she repeated the GA and Flag feats by intercepting General Zod's fist.
I included Katana blocking Zod's heat vision in this intentionally, as well as a demonstration in the final image of the condition she was in after he tossed her into a wall (ie barely conscious).
The feats with General Zod are more about Katana's use of skill and technique rather than strength. Very much an outlier too as Katana has never faced an opponent anywhere near Zod's level.
Katana and Harley can wade through troops faster than Boomerang (ie a Flash villain and used to speed) can drop a single opponent.
Losing to Flash for a majority of fights doesn't mean Boomerang should be faster and more efficient at killing fodder.
Meanwhile, Katana can disappear from the middle of her team without a trace to the point even Martian Manhunter is unable to detect her
J'onn didn't even react, nor did it seem like he cared. He didn't even say anything, so you can't assume he was unaware where she went. When Elektra did this to Daredevil, he was actually surprised and demonstrated that. His senses are also a lot more developed than J'onn's, minus the obvious things like the super vision.
Elektra does this on the regular. She's even done this to Iron Fist DURING a fight, which is much more impressive:
While we're here, I'd like to emphasize this showing:
Elektra steps off the edge of a building
Danny was already running to the edge to catch her
Danny looks over the edge and Elektra is nowhere to be found
Elektra appears behind Danny, coming down at him from above
She strikes Danny with a kick, essentially blitzing him, and hard enough to make him spit out blood from the mouth
Iron Fist, arguably THE best and most skilled fighter on Earth-616, with his own impressive set of speed and skill feats. Elektra disappeared from his view by stepping off a building, appeared behind him a moment later, and landed a hard kick on him before he could react. They then fought to a stalemate until Danny brought out his Chi.
demonstrate how she can hide in plain sight
Blending in as a waitress is hardly impressive, especially in a combat situation such as ours.
Her stealth puts her beyond even characters like Batman.
This is an extremely bold statement that you will need to back up with more feats than the 1 image of Katana slicing Batman from behind him that you presented.
Red Hood Counters
The strength and skill feats you presented are impressive, but there are two things you need to provide more context on: his fight against Deathstroke, and his fight against Lady Shiva. I'm willing to bet that there is more context for these two feats.
His speed feats are okay but not too impressive. Green Arrow was taken completely by surprise from close range, Supergirl being impressed with his speed is just a useless statement, and it is unclear if he is aim-dodging, bullet-timing, or just plain lucky.
His durability is good too, but I don't see how Elektra's sai wouldn't penetrate his armour when her sais have stabbed superhumans like Red Hulk and Red She-Hulk. He seems to have more blunt durability than anything, which won't be too useful when getting stabbed or dropped from several hundred feet in the air. Bulletproof armour can only do so much.
His stealth and intelligence are useful, but not in our particular fight. This will be explained more later on. Being able to evade Supergirl's senses is a solid feat though.
The All-Blades could prove troublesome, but he won't last long enough to use them. In CQC, I would argue that Elektra would still dominate Jason even with the All-Blades. She's just way too fast and skilled for him.
The taser will be addressed later on.
Killer Croc Counters
He's definitely stronger and more durable than anyone else in this match, but he is severely lacking in speed and skill. He would be a threat to Azazel only. Elektra would have no trouble at all with him, since he would still be susceptible to getting stabbed in vital spots and/or have pressure points used against him. He could possibly be trouble for Typhoid Mary, but that isn't a concern for me based on my strategy and Mary has shown to be able to stab through durable opponents such as Wolverine anyways. Other than Killer Croc being bulletproof, his piercing durability doesn't seem too exceptional unless you have more to show, and his vital spots are just as vulnerable as anyone else's (AFAIK).
The "survival" of this feat isn't shown in the scans you posted. Can you provide more context for this? Did he survive but was knocked out/injured? Did he immediately get back up after the fall?
Elektra could easily take him, and I'm confident Typhoid Mary could as well with some difficulty. He is the least of my concerns from your team.
Arsenal Counters
Roy isn't too threatening when you're dealing with consistent bullet-timers like Elektra, somewhat-less-consistent-but-still-impressive-bullet-timers like Typhoid Mary, and a teleporter who can react to gunfire. Not to mention that he is severely disadvantaged without his bow, which Mary can combust or TK away, or Elektra can disarm/break. He would also surely die from a fall of a few hundred feet in the air; with no tall buildings to grapple onto, it isn't likely he will be able to correct himself while free-falling and save himself.
Piercing and explosive arrows are common for Arsenal to use. The two images provided show that the explosive power exceeds Donna Troy's attack. Other assorted arrows include zip lines and grappling lines, shock arrows, glue arrows, flares and incendiaries, net arrows, and more. These are used offensively, defensively, and for mobility. He also carries surveillance equipment. Let me know you need more info on gear.
The trick arrows are something I'd be more concerned about, but as I said, without a bow, Roy and his trick arrows are limited. My only question about his gear is how standard all these different types of arrows are for him?
Perk Counters
Your assessment in your own perks was way off base in advantages. We are not surprised just because you have prep and we do not need prep to discuss weaknesses. The basic knowledge is there for versatile characters like Arsenal so he knows which specialty arrows would be most effective as an example of it's relevance. Surprising my team does not exist simply because prep exists. That's something you would need to prove. Instead, it mean he won't do something dumb like shoot Typhoid Mary with a net arrow that she's just going to incinerate or TK off.
It isn't off though. We both have basic knowledge. All that means is that we both know who our opponents are based on a Wikia page. However, since my team has prep, we get to survey the battlefield, plan a strategy, get into position, etc. You get none of that. When your team spawns, it will be in an unfamiliar area, with no chance to discuss a strategy or get into position. Since we know who you are, what you are capable of, and get to plan accordingly, we hold the advantage when the battle begins. The battle starts on our terms and since we have a strategy and we are in position, we get the first strike unless your team is fast enough to react to us before we can execute our initial move, which isn't the case.
Red Hood does not need prep to use the C4 either. He only needs opportunity during the battle. Given his level of stealth and expertise with explosives he can make use of it.
This won't work for a few reasons.
First, as already mentioned, your team will spawn in an unknown area that my team has already scouted. You will not initially see my team until we reveal ourselves, since none of you have x-ray vision or the superhuman senses necessary to detect two extremely skilled ninjas/assassins and a teleporter.
Second, your spawn point is pretty much out in the open. You are vulnerable from the get-go, which will make it impossible for Red Hood to sneak away to plant C4s, especially since we will initiate the attack on Red Hood right away, as stated in my strategy.
Third, you didn't provide any feats that Red Hood has utilized C4s before. We can assume he knows how to use them, I won't deny that, but since he is still fighting in character, what leads you to believe he will immediately go and plant C4s when the battle starts? That seems like a very unlikely strategy for him, especially since he will be targeted from the start.
This might blow your mind, but Suicide Squad and the Outlaws already use earpieces as standard equipment. I included these for the team so that our techie guys have the option of using earpieces to create remote detonators without destroying communication or other devices that might be needed. The best use of explosives requires the best options in rigging those explosives. Given the level of technical skill and knowledge Red Hood and Arsenal have, it's a cheap remote detonator addition.
Can you provide proof that this is standard equipment for all 4 of your characters?
You will also need to provide feats that anyone on your team has used ear pieces as remote detonators and explain how you will plan on setting them up without any prep.
Rebuttal Counters
Beast cannot possibly be ragdolling a grown man with metal bones as mentioned because Wolverine was bone only in Days of Future Past
You are right about this, I must admit. My apologies. However, it is still quite impressive that Beast was easily rag dolling a full-grown adult male of at least 200 pounds.
Not only is scaling pushing it without additional feats, Beast also appeared to continue developing his additional mutation with no indication he was strong enough to throw a car in First Class. Azazel did ragdoll man-sized opponents but let's not try to push that too far.
FOX characters are composite. All the feats from the movies can apply. Also, Katana, Arsenal, and Red Hood are all average sized adults...just saying.
I see Elektra being stabbed in the chest, not necessarily the heart. Where was that established?
I actually can't find where it was established that her heart was stabbed or not. We'll assume it wasn't her heart since I can't find the proof. However, it was still a very fatal stab straight through her chest, which based on the area, at least pierced her lungs or another major organ. Regardless, it is still very impressive that she was stabbed like this and still managed to walk her way to Matt's apartment a few blocks away.
There is no indication that Luke Cage or Jessica Jones were using full strength striking Typhoid Mary. She can take quite a bit of punishment but this gets back to over scaling. Accepting those as legitimate would mean accepting Zod hit Katana full force. Is that really the rabbit hole you want to go down?
They may not have been using their full strength, but since Mary set Jessica on fire and tried to stab Luke with her katana, I don't see why they would be holding back that much. Even their lower-end striking feats are enough to cause serious damage:
You are assuming all of Mystique's skill came from Azazel. For that to be true we would need to see an indication of it somewhere or show a similar level of skill. Again, too much scaling.
It was heavily implied. At the end of First Class, Mystique joined the Hellfire Club. No one else in the Club had fighting skills except Azazel. At the beginning of Days of Future Past, Mystique's fighting skills were already developed. It is possible she sought training from others, but given her affinity for mutants, hatred for humans, and relationship with Azazel, it is more likely she learned from him and unlikely she signed up for Taekwondo classes at the local dojo. We can see from Azazel's limited feats that he incorporated acrobatics in his fighting, so it isn't far off to assume he taught Mystique the same moves.
The Azazel vs Beast battle you are using was not as one-sided as you mention. Beast saved Havoc from a surprise attack at the beginning and prevented Azazel from teleport dropping them. Beast ended up on the losing end but still had his moments.
I never claimed it was completely one-sided. All I said was that Azazel held the upper hand and would have killed Beast if not for the intervention of Mystique. Holding the upper hand in a 1v2 fight against a superhuman like Beast and a powerful energy projector like Havoc is impressive given his limited feats.
I got a laugh out of your comment that my team would not work together. It's a clear demonstration that you and the sources you checked aren't as familiar with my team as you might think.
Can you please provide feats showing that all 4 have worked together in a combat situation then, instead of laughing my comment off? :)
Killer Croc and Katana have definitely worked together. Arsenal and Red Hood have worked together as well. But what about any other combination of the four?
I found at least 2 occasions where Jason Todd and Killer Croc have been at odds:
Nightwing: Year One: Dick Grayson and Jason Todd fought against Killer Croc, who had Alfred captive.
Both these instances lead me to believe that Jason Todd and Killer Croc are more likely to fight each other than work together...
You say that Arsenal and Killer Croc are affiliated, but have they ever fought alongside each other?
First, it is very much in line with Azazel to teleport drop opponents. I agree. The problem with this is that everyone knows to expect it because that comes with basic knowledge. My entire team has the reflexes to cut him in half, rip him in half, or shoot him point blank. He has nothing on Katana's speed, deadly attacks, and danger sense. That's if he can even find them. They have stealth too. Stealth that stopped Martian and Kryptonian senses.
Basic knowledge is based on a Wikia page. Here is the most informative Wikia page that exists for Azazel. See anything about him teleporting and dropping opponents?
You are Team 1. Your spawn point is the red circle on the map:
It is broad daylight. There are places for cover, but not many options for you nearby to completely hide, climb up, etc. Any aspect of stealth that your team may have is severely handicapped in this environment. Elektra will be hiding, waiting to strike, at a vantage point that gives her the best view of the area. As a highly skilled and trained ninja/assassin, this is a common thing for her to do. With earpieces, it allows us to communicate your position the moment you spawn. Mary and Azazel will be hiding out of view. It will take seconds for you to spawn, for Elektra to identify your position, relay the information, and for my team to strike.
Although Azazel has reacted to bullets, your team definitely has the superior speed feats, I will admit. However, you will not know that it is common for Azazel to teleport people into the air, and unless you prove me otherwise, none of your characters have gone up against a rapid teleporter like Azazel. Since Red Hood is the first target, he will be teleported into the air well above cloud-level and dropped before he or anyone on your team can react. This will put your team on high alert and might allow you to counter the next teleport, but you will need to prove they can counter a teleporter like this.
Typhoid Mary cannot combust Soultaker or the All-Blades. Zod couldn't melt Soultaker. Even if she could combust the All-Blades Jason just make more. Crock doesn't use weapons. Her range has not been established as exceeding the range of Arsenal and Red Hood. She also cannot combust what she cannot see from what I understand so stealth easily stymies that.
The energy output of Zod's heat vision is definitely superior than Mary's pyrokinesis, but there's a difference. Zod's heat vision was targeting the base of the sword, above the hilt:
The sword was clearly getting damaged because it literally screamed "IT BURNNNNS" and asked for release. Mary's pyrokinesis is much larger in AoE, having affected the bodies of people (Wolverine), a school bus, and two of Punisher's guns (a machine gun and a handgun). Perhaps the pyrokinesis won't burn the steel, but what do you have to suggest that the hilt of her katana won't combust? Even if it just burns instead of completely combusting, the heat would most certainly cause Katana to lose her grip. From there, it's very easy for Mary to use her TK to toss the weapon away as I have shown she can do. Even if Katana manages to grab her sword back before that happens, that's long enough of a distraction for Elektra to close in and take her out.
Elektra's sai don't need to be sharp enough to pierce Croc's skin. They need to be long enough to do significant damage.
Are you claiming that a stab to the eyes or brain won't be enough to drop Killer Croc...? We have basic knowledge, remember that. We know Killer Croc has tough and thick skin. Elektra won't attempt to stab his torso. She'll go for the vulnerable spots, i.e. eyes, throat, brain, etc. The average Okinawan Sai is 18-21 inches long. Because of the length of the hilt, the center part of the blade is less than that, about 14 inches. You're telling me that 14 inches of depth won't do any harm to Killer Croc?
Not that it matters. Katana is faster than Elektra, capable of cutting through her sai, and capable of a stealth attack. You demonstrated stealth vs Daredevil senses. I demonstrated stealth vs Martian and Kryptonian sense. Martian and Kryptonian senses >>>>> Daredevil.
Once again, you are relying on the aspect of stealth that you simply do not have. You have 3 stealthy characters but with little opportunity to take advantage of it. You are in an unfamiliar environment, in broad daylight, with no prep. My team had the chance to survey the area, strategize, and get into position. You have no chance at stealth unless one of your characters can turn invisible.
Also, claiming that Katana is faster than Elektra is laughable when Elektra has significantly better bullet-timing feats. She too has caught arrows, cut bullets, deflected gunfire, etc. Has Katana reacted to sniper rounds? Elektra has been too fast for Wolverine and Punisher, and regularly blitzes opponents from various distances. Want more speed feats? Here you go:
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Dodging point-blank bullets, moving faster than a camera can catch, blitzing people, etc. (For context: IIRC, she allowed herself to be captured)
Deflects an energy blast with her sword
Dodges multiple projectiles thrown by Bullseye, arguably the most accurate villain on Earth
Casually takes down 2 men before they can finish a sentence
While close to death, she's still faster than a rattlesnake
Deflects a point-blank shot with a pipe
Catches an arrow fired by Bullseye (under disguise as Hawkeye)
Blitzes SHIELD agents
Azazel teleports in as expected. He gets stabbed by Red Hood, who has the reflexes to tag speedsters when he is serious. In the unlikely event he gets teleported up, he still stabs Azazel, who was grabbed by Beast (who is slower than Jason Todd) as demonstrated when Azazel could not teleport away from Beast. In either case Azazel dies quickly. If Jason is falling he has demonstrated solid impact durability in his armor such as the Frankenstein scan, skills to avoid damage from high falls as per the Supergirl scan, often has glider technology, definitely has a grappling line to use in order to save himself, can be caught by Croc to help break his fall, and Arsenal definitely has lines to put out, and also at least two net arrows to save Jason from the fall.
There are so many things wrong with this...
Reflexes to tag speedsters? Where? What about going up against teleporters?
Azazel was free-falling with Beast for a few seconds before Beast grabbed onto him. Against the CIA agents, he was teleporting them up and teleporting away in less than a second, except for the CIA agent dude with glasses. The agents were hitting the ground a second or two apart.
An unsuspecting Jason might not have that second to grab his knife and stab Azazel before he teleports away
Having blunt durability is not the same as surviving a fall from hundreds of feet into the air...
In the Frankenstein feat, he's knocked away into a structure, not dropped from the sky. The end result of that feat isn't shown anyways.
For the Supergirl feat, he jumped out and used the buildings to make his way down. Where our battle takes place, there aren't any tall places for him to save himself with. He's also not jumping but being dropped straight down, which makes it much harder to correct your trajectory and stay oriented.
Where is this glider technology? Is it standard for him?
What about the grappling line? What will he grapple onto to when there's nothing tall in the area?
Does Killer Croc catch people whose parents he murdered and who he has fought against before? Will Killer Croc even prioritize saving Red Hood when him and the rest of his team come under attack?
What structure is Roy going to use his net arrow to save Jason with?
Honestly, Jason can one shot your whole team with his chest taser. They don't have that level of durability.
Dude...
You provided like 2 feats of him using this chest taser, and both are from really close range. Not only that, but can you show that it's even a common and in-character thing for him to use this? Especially with the last feat of him taking out a room of fodder. He's likely to take out his own team at the same time.
Conclusion
Nothing of my original arguments and strategy has changed. You do have a great team, but I have the better perks and strategy.
Katana is very fast, but based on what we have both presented, I would still put Elektra slightly above her. Elektra is also stronger, more durable, and arguably more skilled than Katana.
The bulk of your counter to my strategy with Azazel was knowing that he tends to tele-drop people. However, given that basic knowledge is based on a Wikia page and you won't find that piece of information on any Wikia page of his, your team will not in fact know that it is common for Azazel to tele-drop his opponents.
Red Hood will get tele-dropped and will die or be too injured to continue fighting. Whether Azazel dies in the process or before he can tele-drop his next target (Roy) doesn't matter much because your team will be on high-alert and the next two steps of my strategy will immediately take effect anyways. However, I would still argue that Azazel gets the chance to tele-drop both Red Hood and Arsenal before Katana and Killer Croc can adapt to what is happening
Mary might not be able to completely destroy Katana's sword, but she can at least combust the hilt, which would make the sword either 1) impossible to wield, or 2) too hot for Katana to hold onto. Jason's gear and Roy's bow can easily be combusted.
With your team having fallen to their deaths or having been disarmed, this allows Elektra to swoop in and finish you all off with her exceptional skill, speed, and lethality.
If for whatever reason Jason can stop Azazel before he teleports, well then your team is screwed when Mary combusts the 3 C4's that Jason is holding :)
The element of stealth you keep bringing up is completely null in our scenario given: your lack of prep, the environment, your spawn point, and the fact that it is broad daylight and my team will be waiting for you.
So you demonstrated Elektra casually overtaking a car doing 60?
Where exactly does it show Katana actually overtaking the car going 60...? All it shows is her about to sit in the passenger seat. You are making a plain assumption that Katana actually ran faster than 60mph to catch up to the car, which is absolutely ridiculous and would be an extreme outlier for her speed.
Are you seriously claiming that Katana ran that fast? Faster than a cheetah, literally the fastest land animal in the world? To put this into even more perspective, the top speed of Usain Bolt, the fastest man alive, is 27.8 mph. So Katana, considered to be peak human, can run more than twice as fast as him?
The more likely scenario is that Katana landed in the car from above, and the driver telling her that he is going 60 mph is a warning for her to be careful.
Practically vivisecting a master swordsman black lantern?
How is this impressive? First of all, Katana took him by surprise while he was mid-sentence and clearly NOT on guard, so this wasn't a fair fight by any means. Second of all, he isn't an actual Black Lantern, he was reanimated by one as a corpse. He is essentially a zombie, and you can clearly tell that by his appearance. This clearly shows how little you know about your own character, or you're simply lying to make her feat seem more impressive. Third of all, this is even LESS impressive than if she did this to a regular human because a reanimated corpse has far inferior durability than a regular human. You can even tell from the black blood and the pieces of him on the floor that he is rotting.
I do not see how catching a knife thrown from behind even comes close to reflecting 5 bullets fired at close range from behind back at the opponent after they had already been fired. Do you have feats to compare to that?
The feat you are referring to is impressive, but Elektra tends to dodge bullets rather than deflect them.
I provided you with TWO examples of Elektra dodging sniper rounds. This is far more impressive than dodging most other types of gunfire. To back this up, the speed of sound is about 340 m/s. The speed of a bullet from a sniper rifle is anywhere from 800 to 1000 m/s, so almost 3 times faster than the speed of sound. Has Katana done this?
Maybe outracing an explosion from within an elevator shaft Katana is also in?
Out of the elevator shaft and also out of the building.
The initial explosion wasn't that massive... You're implying the explosion was what caused the entire building to go up in flames and explode? The building was already very much on fire before the explosion:
If that explosion was what caused the building to explode, then why was Katana looking down the elevator shaft right after the explosion? If she was really "outracing" the explosion, she would have went straight for the window rather than stop and look down the elevator shaft. The destruction of the building was a gradual process due to the fire, not the explosion. There was no big, final explosion that destroyed the building, and Katana certainly did not outrace any actual explosion given all of this. It is much more likely that she looked down the elevator shaft after the explosion she caused and then jumped out of the burning building along with the other Birds of Prey.
Your opening claimed Elektra's best feats while I provided common casual bullet timing.
Both Elektra and Katana are casual bullet-timers, neither of us can deny that. However, there are many differences between their feats.
Elektra regularly dodges bullets, including from multiple gunmen surrounding her. She can deflect bullets from close range with her sais, which is more impressive than with a katana given the size difference of the weapons. Katanas are both wider and longer than even two sais combined, so it is more impressive to deflect bullets with sais than with a katana in that respect.
She has shown multiple times to be able to catch or cut arrows while in flight, but she can slice a bullet in half as well. She has even deflected bullets with a pipe from point blank range, which shows she is skilled enough to deflect bullets with unconventional objects.
So whereas Katana is primarily shown to only deflect bullets with her sword, Elektra can dodge bullets while surrounded by multiple gunmen, she can dodge sniper rounds, she can deflect bullets with her smaller weapons, and she can deflect bullets from point blank range with unconventional objects like a pipe.
Hell, she's too fast for Wolverine, who is also a regular bullet-timer by the way. She can also dodge multiple projectiles thrown by Bullseye. For reference, Bullseye's accuracy is unparalleled being the world's greatest assassin, and he has tagged people like Daredevil, Deadpool, Spider-Man, and more. So being able to dodge projectiles from Bullseye is much more impressive than dodging anything from fodder.
Katana's speed and agility are great, I won't deny that; but based on feats, Elektra's speed and agility are superior to hers.
Being short does not mean it's not legit. That's all the time it took for Shiva to determine she wanted to face Katana at full capacity. I posted some combat with Deathstroke as well but he created a distraction and left before that could have been concluded.
The fights with Lady Shiva and Deathstroke that you presented were not even actual fights though. Both lasted 3 panels and were not conclusive at all because neither resulted in a win/loss for the combatants. Lady Shiva ended the fight herself and left, and Deathstroke just disappeared without actually fighting back at all. Katana is nowhere near the level of Lady Shiva and Deathstroke in skill, and you claiming that is absurd.
The problem with your skill argument is it's hard to quantify significant Marvel vs DC. Unless you can actually demonstrate similar speed Elektra will have no chance against Katana's speed, and your opening with Azazel is doomed to fail because he does not come close.
Soooo because our characters are from two different universes, my arguments on skill are rendered null...? It goes both ways. I find it laughable that you still believe Katana is so superior to Elektra in speed when the feats prove otherwise.
What good is strength (debatable as both are peak athletes but regardless) or pain tolerance when Katana just cuts off Elektra's arms or whatever? Katana was cutting the arms off OMAC's. OMAC's > Elektra in durability and strength. However, as you argued Typhoid Mary's durability off of Luke Cage and Jessica Jones I did included Zod throwing Katana into a wall, can show and OMAC doing the same and spiderwebbing the wall with her body,
What...? Strength, durability and pain tolerance are essential in any form of CCQ. It isn't all about speed and skill, which Elektra already outclasses Katana in based on feats.
I'm not too familiar with OMAC, but with the limited research I just did on him, I see that his superhuman durability is based on blunt force and energy, with nothing on slashing durability to go on. Therefore, Katana being able to slice his arm off with a magical sword is not impressive or noteworthy at all. And if we're going to play that game, then Elektra being able to stab both Red Hulk and Red She Hulk and a Ghost Rider Super Skrull >>> Katana being able to slice off OMAC's arm.
and here is Katana with a point blank baby-nuke that required Geoforce to require medical attention from right beside her. That's heat, shrapnel, and impact.
Katana is very much down for the count in that scan... She survived, but she clearly is severely injured, practically KO'd, and probably borderline dying. I don't see how this really helps your case. Geo-Force on the other hand is still very injured but in better shape than her, seeing as he can lift himself up a bit and call out to Katana.
The image was self-evident when Zod asked "how" and Katana said "magic". Are you trying to tell me you have scans of Elektra sprinting by an opponent of Hyperion's and casually blocking with "skill"? I see a couple of things wrong with your argument as you said Elektra could replicate Katana's feats and you are ignoring what is stated in the scan as you inject speculation instead. If you can demonstrate a skill feat like that I will accept that Katana's massive skill allows her to block Kryptonian strikes.
So Katana has magic now...? The only thing magical about her is her sword, and Katana replying with "Magic" while smiling was clearly a sarcastic comment and not to be taken literally. This showing is purely based off of her magical sword and having superior skill to Zod, nothing more. If you're suggesting that Katana = General Zod then oh boy...
I have already provided you with multiple showings of Elektra's skill against opponents like Wolverine, Bullseye, Taskmaster, Iron Fist, etc. She has stalemated Daredevil multiple times too. Most of these guys are wayyyy above Katana in terms of skill. Unless you're claiming otherwise, in which case, oh boy...
Sabbac when Sabbac was amped with the power of the 7 deadly sins and Shaggyman. Now it's no longer an outlier.
And this is impressive why...? You provided zero context for Sabbac, the power of the 7 Deadly Sins, or Shaggyman. Again, her magical sword being able to slash magical beings with little to no piercing/slashing durability is not impressive.
Cutting Wonder Woman's sword during Trinity. Waller pegged her as a counter for Wonder Woman.
Are you.....Did you just....Katana = Wonder Woman??? Oh boy...
That's not the Flash but it still makes the point. Deadshot couldn't hit that target while Boomerang flipped the gun around before said fast guy could stop firing. No matter how you try to spin it, Katana and Harley wading through those soldiers faster than Boomerang could tag one is impressive.
Boomerang being able to tag the gun of a distracted opponent is not very impressive. Your scaling is getting off the charts here.
J'onn was asked point blank and could not identify where she had gone even though she was in the middle of the team. Martians have 9 sense to overcome (check here ) and that is just as impressive as disappearing from Kryptonians.
Okay, woah. Not only is this an extreme outlier for Katana's stealth and a counter-feat for J'onn, but J'onn was specifically asked to get a lock on Katana and find out where she is and what she is doing. This was in reference to his telepathy, NOT his senses, which is further demonstrated by the fact that J'onn then commented on his telepathy being blocked. If he was asked to sense her in any way, including his enhanced senses, why would he comment on his telepathy alone? If J'onn's senses are as good as you hype them up to be, he should be able to locate a peak human like Katana. Katana has no superhuman abilities that result in her having super stealth powers. This would also not translate to our particular scenario, which is a combat situation where you spawn in an unknown, open area that my team has already scoped out and are in position for.
There are also danger sense scans in the mix. I'll add Cat Woman for you (because I have it handy), and if you want I can grab an image of Deadshot and Batman failing to get away from Katana as she chooses to let them go.
So now Katana's stealth > Catwoman's stealth...? Oh boy...
There is a lack of context in this scan. We don't know how or if Katana snuck up on Catwoman, if Katana out-skilled her, etc.
Let me know if you want me to dig out the reference to Batman and Deadshot failing to avoid Katana through stealth.
I would love to this outlier and see you argue Katana's stealth > Batman's stealth, but as this will be your final post, you cannot post more scans & feats.
You are severely wanking Katana, a street-leveler, and comparing her to characters WAY beyond her level.
I'd like to end this section by saying that most of Katana's feats are done with her katana, the only weapon she uses and the only one she a master of. Elektra, on the other hand, is a master of several weapons, including sais, katanas, knives, shuriken, staffs, etc. Elektra is also a master of several forms of martial arts. So who do you think is more skilled: the woman who has mastered only one weapon, or the woman who has mastered several weapons and several martial arts?
Red Hood
The context is that the technique Red Hood used on Shiva was stated to be a "short cut" that she had taught him. It's never been stated if the "short cut" referred to the block, counter attack, pressure point, or combo but he defeated her in any case.
IIRC, Lady Shiva beat Jason pretty quickly and easily in their first fight. In this fight, Jason even acknowledged that he couldn't beat her in hand-to-hand combat, so he uses a shortcut she taught him (a pressure point) to take her out. Also, this is New-52 Shiva, who is far less impressive than Pre-52 Shiva.
The context on Deathstroke was also listed as part of the link above. Deathstroke did not have his healing factor and had been in recent combat while Red Hood was stated to be playing a game. Here is some real context in both cases.
Yes, but there is still a lot of important, missing information from this. Did Jason take Slade by surprise or was it a fair and even fight? Was Slade fighting to the fullest of his capabilities? Deathstroke not having his healing factor is a significant handicap to him... And just because Red Hood wasn't intending to kill him doesn't mean he was playing games and not going full-out.
Jason excels at taking advantage of openings and mistakes, and he uses his banter to create those openings and mistakes, much like we see him doing against Shiva, Deathstroke, Batman, and even the Demon's Head if you want another example. Those images also demonstrate that while Jason was holding back (as shown in my opening) Batman was not able to deal with Jason and could not hold back.
There are several things wrong with this. First, Jason took Batman by surprise. Second, Batman was not fighting back much. Third, Batman only stated he couldn't hold back at the END of the fight.
I also added an example of Jason stabbing and pinning Onyx (a trained assassin) to the wall before she could perceive it, moving back into speed.
What feats does Onyx have as a trained assassin to make this impressive?
That's the low end speedster I mentioned earlier. Jason blitzed her along with the Iron Rule when he gave into becoming a living weapon. She is clearly a bullet timer at minimum and he switched from guns to H2H in his attack on her.
I see we are using the term "speedster" very loosely here....She is fast, but hardly a speedster. In the scan where he "blitzed" her, she was clearly not even moving and just stood there.
He's been capable of matching Artemis' Amazon speed (bullet-timer; she also pointed out he was holding back in that fight)
Matching? Where? All I see is him getting owned pretty easily. And at no point does she say he was holding back.
and he's capable of firing pistols so rapidly he's replicated automatic fire completely demolishing a large body almost instantly and we can still see muzzle flashes as he's already firing again at different locations.
Okay...?
I don't think Elektra has the speed advantage you think she does. That means All-Swords ftw win, except it's not necessary given the taser.
Based on her bullet-timing feats and her showings against very skilled and fast opponents (i.e. Wolverine, Taskmaster, Iron Fist, etc.) I'm quite confident she has the speed advantage necessary to win. Jason holds the advantage in gear, and a slight advantage in strength/durability, but Elektra is far superior in skill, and decently superior in speed.
Killer Croc
Here is another example of simply landing on his feat while protecting a child during a great fall. Bats needed to dive into the water.
The height of the fall is not clear, and I doubt it was several hundred feet in the air. Not only that, but he clearly jumped down, rather than being teleported several hundred feet into the sky and dropped down. There is a big difference. Jumping down will mostly maintain your orientation and keep you upright so that you land on your feet due to the momentum and trajectory of the jump. Being dropped from a great height, however, will make it very difficult for someone to maintain their orientation to stay upright and land feet-first.
The pic I gave in my first post is from Forever Evil: Arkham War and it does not show the actual landing. We see him next the same night in a room full of villains with no damage. Here is a bit more on speed and use.
Can you confirm the amount of time between him landing and him appearing in the room with no damage? Because unless you can, you can't assume there was some time in between where he was not KO'd or injured and then recovered after an hour or a few hours.
You'll need to do better than 1 example of Killer Croc being too fast for Batman from point-blank range to justify his speed as being anywhere near my team's...
That gets back to the issue with your strategy. Everyone is a threat to Azazel and he was your primary assault.
He was my first assault to take everyone by surprise; this doesn't mean he is my best assault. Even if he only manages to tele-drop just Red Hood, and it is unlikely he will only get to tele-drop just him, then I take out your 2-pointer with my 1-pointer and cause a momentary distraction for your team, which leads to the next 2 steps of my strategy.
Arsenal
Roy was a member of the Teen Titans, Titans, Justice League, Outsiders, Checkmate, and Outlaws off the top of my head. In that time he's has carried a wide assortment of weapons as an expert marksman and weapons expert. He's capable of using anything as a weapon, similar to Bullseye. Above I show him using explosives, disabling a man with a clipboard, attacking Vandal Savage with a paperclip, his hands are lethal weapons, disarming those fake nurses and throwing the syringes like darts, and demonstrating that even when he had PTSD after getting shot in the heart he was capable of H2H with Nightwing pre52. He is not defenseless without the bow.
Here he is replicating throwing a weapon into a gun to disable it, but in this case pens and chopsticks. He can disable one officer with a single blow and attack the other before that officer can fire, and he's capable of catching arrows from his bow fired at him point blank. There is plenty for him to work with in this battlefield if he loses his bow, including weapons from Red Hood if needed.
That's great and all, but only his bow and arrows are considered standard equipment... So yeah, without his bow, he is quite useless in this match. Based on our image of the battlefield, there isn't much he can use as a weapon anyways. No clipboards, paperclips, syringes, pens, chopsticks, etc. His best chance are scavenging the weapons from Red Hood's dead corpse :) But by then, it will be too late for him.
Speaking of getting shot, Roy has something similar to what you gave Elektra credit.
Roy survived the time before Jade returned to him plus 5 minutes to the hospital with a confirmed collapsed lung and shot to the heart. He recovered to active duty from that and eventually overcame the PTSD. He's tough. As for specialty arrows here are some examples.
While it is impressive that he survived 5 gunshots, including to the heart/lung, he was KO'd. Elektra, after getting stabbed straight through the chest and at least one major organ given the location of the stab, managed to walk her way several blocks before going down. Much more impressive.
He uses explosives, tasers, and grab / zip lines all the time. He's used nets at least 3 times I can recall but to be fair one was almost instantly burned. He's also used foam retardant a couple of times and various unique arrows frequently. Tech characters are very versatile. That's something we see with Jason and Todd.
Since you provided a few feats, I'll agree that his zip lines and net arrows are standard for him. However, you didn't really provide any feats to suggest that his explosive arrows, foam retardants, and other unique arrows are considered standard equipment for him.
My conclusion remains that without his bow, he is quite useless against characters like Elektra and Typhoid Mary.
Perks
You discussed wikia knowledge, came up with a plan, and that plan is in your strategy. Your team is still in it's own spawning point and it takes time to move to mine, which you don't know where my team spawns until they do.
@kevd4wg can correct me if I am wrong, but because I have prep on the battlefield, I start where I want to start. Since you do not have prep, you begin at your designated spawn point.
Assuming I can start where I want due to my prep, I already explained how Elektra will start off hidden at a high vantage point that provides her with the best view of the area. This will enable her to locate your team before you even see anyone on my team, which she can then relay to her teammates via earpieces.
Assuming I have to start at my spawn point, it alters my strategy a bit but not by much. Since my team had the chance to survey the area, we are much more familiar with it than your team will be. This, coupled with Elektra's far superior stealth, will enable her to locate your team before you can locate anyone of my team, and from there, the rest of my strategy stays the same. Mary and Azazel will still stay hidden while Elektra scouts out your team. Even if your team detects Elektra as she detects you, your position is still compromised, which leads to Azazel beginning the assault while your team's focus is being held by Elektra.
This brings us back to Azazel coming in first, attacking Jason first, and not having in the reflexes and speed to match Jason. That's assuming Azazel knows where Jason is because I demonstrated Jason avoiding Kryptonian detection in broad daylight and Katana avoiding Martian detection in broad daylight. No one on your team can beat that level of stealth and everyone on my team is a problem for Azazel. The time it takes your team to close is the time required for my guys to stealth up and/or discuss.
You never provided me with any feats showing Jason going up against a rapid teleporter like Azazel. The most you showed is him going up against an opponent with barely-superhuman speed. Not the same. Jason is definitely faster than Azazel, I'm not denying that. But he still isn't fast enough to react to a teleporter appearing from behind him, teleporting him hundreds of feet into the air, and dropping him. Jason would have to strike Azazel (who is behind him) in less than the 1 second it would take for Azazel to teleport him. Even in the air, it is less than a second before Azazel teleports away to his next target. You provided nothing to prove that Jason could react to something like that.
If your plan is to stop and discuss once the battle begins, then you are even more doomed than I initially believed.
You mention that prep as a big advantage but my team has greater numbers, more versatility, range damage, magical advantages, intellect.
You have 1 extra person...
More versatile than a deadly assassin with melee and ranged options, a ninja with pyrokinesis and telekinesis, and a teleporter...?
Both Mary and Elektra can attack from range, just like how Arsenal and Red Hood can attack from range as well. Katana and Killer Croc NEED to be in melee range in order to be of any use.
Magical advantage...? Katana has a magical sword and Red Hood can conjure up swords. Not a big deal nor a noteworthy advantage.
I will admit that your team holds the advantage in intelligence, but the difference is marginal and it is one of the least important factors in our fight.
I demonstrated Katana sensing attacks already and Soultaker has it's own mystical senses.
No. You provided one or two very limited examples of Katana and/or her sword being able to sense danger. Danger sense isn't an ability that is commonly associated with Katana and it is by no means an important factor in our fight.
Red Hood has mystical senses too that are unlikely to come into play here, and his hearing is exceptional but not like Daredevil.
Okay great?
The problem I'm seeing is eventually my team comes out on top with stealth because they will detect Daredevil / Iron Fist level sense stealth before your team can detect Supergirl / MMH level stealth, especially with Soultaker to give your team away.
Oh boy....this wanking & scaling is out of hand.
There you go. Plenty of feats for Jason Todd using wireless explosives. That last two are using abruptly in combat after taking cover. I see plenty of cover available. No assuming necessary.
None of these are actual combat scenarios though. And it takes time to set up explosives, get away, and detonate them. Time that Jason will not have in this fight, in an environment he is completely unfamiliar with as opposed to my team. It seems highly unlikely that as Jason spawns, his first instinct will be to set up explosives.
I can because coms are often used in Outsiders, Suicide Squad, and Outlaws. I don't think I am going to need to based on the way this battle is shaping up, however.
*Says coms are often used*
*Doesn't provide proof*
*Decides his team won't need them anyways*
My Rebuttals
All the feats for your characters do apply. The problem is you are trying to attribute Mystique's skill to training from Azazel from 30+ years after he died. If you had Mystique on your team she would have that skill. Azazel does not have Mystique's skill. The same is true for Beast. Strength he exhibited 20 years after Azazel died that he did not have during Azazel's fight does not apply. It would if Beast was on your team for Beast but Azazel does not have Beast's strength.
30+ years...? It was about a decade. First Class took place in 1962 and DofP took place in 1973. Azazel died sometime within that time frame. Not sure where you got 30+ years from.
But anyways, it is called "composite" for a reason. ALL FOX characters are considered composite, therefore, all of their feats apply.
Red Hood, Arsenal, and Katana worked together during a story arc in the Outsiders to break out Jefferson Pierce from imprisonment. Red Hood went to Nightwing and offered his help to the team to provide intel. I already gave you an image of Red Hood working with Killer Croc, which included the fact Croc and Roy have been talking a lot since Roy went back to the Titans. That pic was from an Outlaws / Suicide Squad crossover after Rebirth.
You are grasping at straws on the "will not work together" angle. Jason works with other teams and individuals regularly. He can be a jerk at times but that doesn't stop him. He was briefly in the Teen Titans, a Robin, a Challenger, and an Outlaw.
Given what you have presented and the research I have done, I will agree that they would work together. However, this by no means they will have anything close to good teamwork, since all 4 of them have never worked together.
Your team has no way of knowing where I spawn. There's also no indication of time spent spawning. If your team can hide, my team can hide. If my team is limited in hiding options, your team is limited in hiding options. This is true because they are on the same battlefield.
I addressed this already. If my team is allowed to start anywhere on the battlefield because of prep, we hold a significant advantage over your team. If my team has their prep on the battlefield and then start at the spawn point, we still have the advantage albeit a smaller one. A huge part of your "strategy" involves going into hiding. The main difference is that my team will have had time to scope out the entire area, whereas your team will be spawning very much out in the open, in broad daylight, and in an area completely new to them. This provides my team with the field advantage, and we can better assess the hiding spots.
You also contradict yourself. First you claim that your team will immediately find hiding spots, but you also claimed they will first take time to discuss with each other and Red Hood will plant the C4s. You can't exactly do both at the same time.
That did not work against Beast and my team is far faster than Beast. Plus net arrows or grappling lines that can break falls, or Croc taking care of it similar to the child in my earlier image.
Beast was there when Azazel attacked the CIA agents, and he saw his technique in tele-dropping them from the sky. He even saw Azazel fight on the ground against the remaining CIA agents. Your team, with their limited knowledge based on a Wikia page, will not know any of his specific fighting techniques. Beast knew of Azazel and his techniques, which was how he knew to counter him by digging his claws into Azazel. Your team does not know the specifics of Azazel's powers and will not know to counter him the same way.
Again, how do you expect net arrows and grappling lines to work when 1) There are no high structures for the lines/ropes to attach them to, 2) Your team will be taken by surprise, and 3) Mary and Elektra will immediately assault your team at the first teleport?
The handle isn't less magical than the rest, but just look back at the baby-nuke the sword survived that I posted above. Also, the voices always want out and expressing pain is not demonstrating damage.
There is no indication that the hilt of the sword is as magical and durable as the metal the blade is made from.
Based on the scan, you can't even see the sword on or near Katana when the explosion goes off. All we see is the sword laying near her as she is KO'd.
Are you really claiming that the souls of the sword screaming "IT BURNNNNS. RELEASE USSSSS" and Katana even stating that the souls are screaming has nothing to do with the fact that Zod is burning the blade with his heat vision...? Pain is an indication that damage is being done. That is how the physiology of pain works. For example, that's why putting your hand on a stove hurts and your reflex is to draw it away: because it is causing damage. Why else would the souls be screaming "IT BURNNNNS"? Because they enjoy the pain of being burnt and need to scream it out loud?
Here is a repost of a couple images. One is Katana controlling the defection of 5 bullet from an automatic rifle that was shot at here from behind while she was attacking someone else in front of her. She exerted control of these 5 bullets to shoot the guy who fired them at her. I may have missed your comparable example. The other image is Katana obviously tracking bullets on different trajectories instead of the typical arc a lot of people post and she still deflects each of them in one stroke.
But these are still just bullet-deflecting feats...Elektra not only has more bullet timing/dodging/deflecting feats, but they are far superior, such as doing it with sniper rounds or deflecting a point blank bullet with a pipe from the ground or deflecting bullets with her sais while in the air. Whereas Elektra is more consistent with her speed and bullet-related feats, Katana is far less consistent and has lots of outliers.
I'll give you that she can take Croc. Right now you seem to think she's taking Croc and Katana while Mary is burning Roy's bow and Azazel is pulling off miracles with his speed compared to Jason's reflexes. All Elektra does in such a case is open herself up to Katana. I think Katana takes Elektra on her own and I am confident she cannot protect herself from Croc while dealing with Katana or protect herself from Katana while dealing with Croc.
Elektra can most definitely take an unarmed Katana at the same time as Killer Croc. Remember, even if Mary's pyrokinesis doesn't combust Katana's blade, the hilt is still vulnerable and at the very least, the burn on the hilt will cause Katana to drop her blade in pain. From there, Mary can TK the sword away and Elektra can close in while she is unarmed. Hell, Mary can TK the sword even while Katana is holding it. With the basic knowledge we have on Katana, she will be deemed a threat, so it isn't unlikely that Mary would try to TK her sword right off the bat. If the sword won't burn, Mary can also combust Katana's armour, which Kevd4wg said was allowed:
This provides Mary with additional options to use her pyrokinesis on. If Katana's sword doesn't combust, her armour certainly will. The same goes for Red Hood and Arsenal's costumes. Killer Croc is the only one on your team who will be immune to this since he has no armour/costume.
No, that's exactly what falling does. It's hitting a solid object at velocity up to terminal velocity. I also see multi-story structions, soft canopy roofs, and trees as objects to help break falls. As for getting tossed by Frankenstein, Jason was fine and they both continued to steal a ship from SHADE. The glider is not always there but grappling lines are.
It isn't though. You can't compare having strong blunt force durability to being able to survive falls of great heights. The physics are completely different. More times than not, someone getting hit by a blunt force travels horizontally, sometimes with a slight arc in the trajectory. Someone falling from a significant height is falling straight down, vertically.
To put the fatality of falls into perspective: in most cases, a fall of 30 feet or more will kill a regular human upon landing on a solid surface. Azazel was dropping them from above cloud-level. The lowest level clouds are roughly 6500 feet up from ground level, which is over 200 times the distance needed to kill a regular human. You have provided no feats of any of your characters getting up and continuing to fight, let alone survive, after a fall from that height. Based on what you have presented and all of Red Hood's feats, this fall will certainly kill him.
You'll notice in the video I had posted of Azazel's feats that all the bodies he tele-dropped landed flat on their stomachs or backs, even though they were dropped feet-first. Landing feet first might allow Killer Croc to survive, but being dropped from such a height rather than him jumping of his own will will make it extremely difficult for him to correct his orientation mid-fall.
I'm not sure what image you are looking at, but the majority of the area of our battlefield is solid ground. There are very, very few trees, barely any "soft canopy roofs", and certainly no multi-story structures. Again, it is also much easier to use a grappling line while falling feet first from a jump than it would be from being dropped from the sky.
I showed you 3 instances. Batman, Artemis, and that gigantic room full of fodder. I also referenced Boomerang and 2 other guards when I posted Red Hood avoiding 2 point blank guns while sitting in a chair in chains. Jason also used the taser on Penguins guards before shooting Penguin. In the case of Penguin's guards and the room full of fodder, Jason left the leaders up and continued to speak to them. I can get those scans too if you want them. Here is the room again so you can review your "close range".
There are several things wrong with Red Hood and his taser:
With Batman and Artemis, he was right on them when he used it. That is close range.
It is likely he only used it on Artemis because he couldn't take her down by any other means
The AoE of his taser can be large, as evidenced in your scan, but he used it on fodder while surrounded by them
You provided no feats of him using his AoE taser against 3 actual opponents that are not fodder
If he decided to use his large AoE taser, your entire team would be compromised as well
You should have provided more scans in your first two posts, because now it is your last post and would be unfair if you brought in new scans that I could not get a chance to address.
It's obvious you don't want to accept my multiple options to Azazel for preventing falling damage the fact he is simply outclassed in speed. My team destroys him by means of reflexes and damage before he can accomplish what you set out to do.
Your "multiple options" are his grappling lines and someone else on his team having to save him. I have already explained why none of your options are plausible or likely to happen, and Red Hood simply does not have the feats to prove how he could survive a fall of that height. Same goes for Katana and Arsenal. The only person who MIGHT survive is Killer Croc, but even then, I am certain he will be injured.
As for your speed argument, it is useless. Your team won't anticipate Azazel teleporting in and out within a second to tele-drop Red Hood. No one except someone with superhuman speed (i.e. a speedster) could react fast enough to react within the one second it would take to for Azazel to tele-drop them. The knowledge perk is too basic to know this is a common strategy for Azazel. There is literally nothing stopping Azazel from teleporting behind Red Hood, touching him, and teleporting him away.
Additionally, it's clear you don't want to accept Jason's chest taser because you don't have a defense for it other than to try and convince people it shouldn't count.
Not only is his chest taser clearly not a standard, go-to move of his, but I provided several counters to it already.
My team simply waits for attack and plans on ambushing attackers when they arrive. They spawn near a lot of equipment just off to the left when facing towards your team. They have the skill set to do just that. Jason still has the capability to one-shot your team with tech, especially from ambush.
It is apparent you have no concrete strategy because you keep saying different things. You said your team will discuss things first, you said your team will immediately go into hiding, and you said Jason will go plant the C4s. You can't do all 3. There is also no way you will be ambushing a teleporter and two highly-trained and skilled ninjas/assassins.
Yeaaa I don't really see someone like Killer Croc being able to hide well behind a tractor...I'm also not sold that anyone on your team barring Katana and MAYBE Red Hood would be good enough to hide from my team.
Jason one-shooting my team is improbable and unlikely given the points I addressed before.
Since you brought up Elektra's supposed lack of skill and inferior stealth, I'll reiterate what she has done:
Elektra's Stealth
Disappears from view from Iron Fist and appears behind him and lands a kick on him before he can react (link)
Disappears from view from Daredevil and his enhanced senses/radar can't pick up on her (link)
Appears and disappears in a room with Nick Fury and a few SHIELD agents (link)
Even as of 12 years old, she could move across snow without leaving any footprints (link)
"Broke into a SHIELD base like it was the local Wendy's" (link). SHIELD bases tend to be heavily secure, with lots of agents, guards, and cameras.
Jumps from a massive height and lands with nothing but a whisper (link)
Jumps and sneaks around a terrorist camp without anyone detecting her (link)
Elektra's Skill
Elektra has matched or bested highly-skilled opponents such as Iron Fist, Daredevil, Bullseye, Lady Bullseye, Taskmaster, Wolverine, Silver Samurai, The Punisher, and various super villains. She has literally dozens of fights against named opponents (including the ones I already mentioned), most of which are far above Katana, Killer Croc, Red Hood, and Arsenal in both stats and skill.
Elektra has a much more extensive mastery over various forms of martial arts and weapon styles. She also uses pressure points and nerve strikes often enough, so these will be very problematic for anyone on your team to deal with.
I already posted some of these fights in my previous posts, so I won't bother reposting them. But everything I have shown so far demonstrates that Elektra has superior skill than Katana and the rest of your team.
I'd like to remind you that Typhoid Mary has also deflected bullets with her sword, and she is also a master swordswoman and martial artist. All that, plus her enhanced strength and durability, plus her powers, will make her a threat to any individual on your team.
Conclusion
You ignored a HUGE amount of my counters simply because you have no way to refute them, whereas I addressed every single one of your arguments
You heavily-relied on wanking Katana and your other team members and scaling them off of far superior characters in order to justify them as comparable to my team
You don't really have any concrete strategy or plan; in fact, you provided multiple plans that can't all be done at the same time
You heavily-relied on your team's "superior" stealth without actually proving that your stealth is far superior
You failed to prove that anyone except Killer Croc would survive a fall from a great height
You also failed to prove how anyone could successfully prevent/break their fall given our battlefield
You have no answer for Elektra; individually, every person on your team is outclassed by her
You have no true answer for Azazel tele-dropping your team; your only counter is Red Hood's speed, which is not enough to stop Azazel
You have no answer to Mary combusting your gear and/or armour or TK'ing your weapons away, all of which severely handicap the usefulness of Arsenal, Red Hood, and Katana
My team can make much better use of our perks, allowing us to survey the battlefield, talk & strategize, and put our plan into action, while maintaining communication throughout the fight
You may have one extra member on your team, but quality > quantity
Even IF Azazel only manages to tele-drop Red Hood, that's still enough of a hit to your team for Elektra and Typhoid Mary to sweep the rest
Your turn for the final post! Regardless of the outcome, this was a very fun match and I thoroughly enjoyed debating against you. Best of luck in the voting!
@ashrym: Just as a heads up though, presenting new scans in your final post without giving me a chance to address them is really not cool and quite frowned upon in debates.
Also, why did you post new links in your final post and try to claim I cannot? You said this...
The difference is that you can address my new scans in your final post. I can't address any of your new scans and feats now since your post was the last of the debate.
@geekryan: I understand where you are coming from but then that turns into a cycle where you were able to post new scans in your final post where I would have been unable to respond with my own.
I kept it to what we had been discussing. The only one I may gave been pushing it on was the eye gouge and I trust voters to ignore it if they agree.
Best of luck either way. I don't get hubg up on debates. :-)
edit: lol I remembered more I wanted to add and held back as well. I definitely did not want to pull a real nasty move ;-)
It isn't the same. I went first in the debate, so you go last. I presented a few new scans in my final post because I knew you would be able to address them in the your final post. Since your final post was the last one of the debate, I don't get a chance to address them at all. Do you see the difference?
Kev has given me permission to address your new scans in another post and we end the debate there. But I'm in 3 new tournaments and in finals, so I don't have the time for that.
I will just ask all the voters to keep all of this in mind when making your decision.
@geekryan: @ashrym:If you guys want to have one extra round of posts, that's fine(both of you would get an extra one), but I'm capping you at 4. Neither of you use new scans if you want a 4th round.
@kevd4wg: Not interested. This debate has gone on for too long already, and as I said, I'm too busy with other tournaments and final exams to put work into an extra post. And given Ashrym's last post, there's no guarantee he won't post anything new in the next one.
@ashrym: No thanks. I don't think you should have added new scans and feats in your last post to begin with, so it shouldn't have to involve more work and time on my part to fix that.
I'll just leave it to the voters at this point to acknowledge that, and hope they vote on the better debater while keeping in mind the etiquette of debates.
@kevd4wg: my vote goes to @geekryan (that's twice I voted for you now in roughly 24 hours lol), whilst @ashrym certainly held his own, I felt that Geekryan had a better constructed team, a more thought out/better battle-plan, and generally just a better character in the form of Typhoid. Good debate though lads, whoever wins I hope to face in the next round So I can get myself an easy win :).
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