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#1 Edited by Kevd4wg (10830 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym

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  • 3 -- Katana
  • 2 -- Jason Todd
  • 2 -- Killer Croc
  • 1 -- Roy Harper

Perks...

  • 1 -- character not on list (Katana)
  • 3 -- unlimited ammo (Roy Harper)
  • 3 -- basic knowledge
  • 2 -- 3 C4's (Red Hood)
  • 1 -- ear pieces
No Caption Provided

@geekryan

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Characters

  • Typhoid Mary (4)
  • Elektra (3)
  • FOX Azazel (1)

Perks:

  • Basic Knowledge(3)
  • 15 Minutes of Prep(3)
  • Decent Teamwork(3)
  • Ear Pieces(1)

Rules

  1. 16 Participants
  2. 8 Character Points to spend
  3. 10 Perk points to spend
  4. 10 Day Deadline to post
  5. No unfair Hax(You should know what this means, if you are using hax abilities obviously over limits, you will be kicked)
  6. No Time Manipulation
  7. No Space Manipulation
  8. No Reality Warping
  9. No Matter Manipulation
  10. No Cloning
  11. No Summons/Constructs
  12. TP is limited to Mind Reading
  13. Standard Gear, which means any gear consistently used for a long period of time(like an entire run for example) and still qualifies as street tier
  14. Teamwork is a complete factor. The only rule with teamwork is that characters will not directly fight each other.
  15. Tie-In comic feats for Live Action characters allowed
  16. Anime characters are Anime/Manga composite
  17. DC is composite Post-Crisis/New52/Rebirth
  18. Marvel is Earth 616 unless stated otherwise
  19. For each round there will either be an extra obstacle to deal with or there will be a certain goal to reach
  20. If you have a problem with a character's pricing, let me know, I'm open to change.
  21. Requesting a Character costs a perk point and I will need either an RT or a CaV with a majority of the character's feats

Voting Rules

  1. Vote for the better debater not who you think would win
  2. Explain your vote
  3. Any votes that seem bias will be discounted by me

Battlefield

Team 1 is Red, Team 2 is blue
Team 1 is Red, Team 2 is blue
Online
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#2 Posted by Kevd4wg (10830 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
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#3 Posted by geekryan (3170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym Cool! I suppose I will go first since I have prep?

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#4 Posted by Ashrym (2675 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: It tends to be a trade-off with prep. ;)

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#5 Edited by geekryan (3170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym said:

@geekryan: It tends to be a trade-off with prep. ;)

Haha very true! I should have my post up by Wednesday!

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#6 Edited by geekryan (3170 posts) - - Show Bio

Post #1

Typhoid Mary

No Caption Provided

Introduction

Mary Walker is a mutant with dissociative personality disorder. Her powers include telekinesis, telepathy, and pyrokinesis. She is also a highly skilled martial artist and assassin and often wields a katana. She has gone up against people like Wolverine, Punisher, Spider-Man, Ghost Rider, Daredevil, Taskmaster, Jessica Jones, Black Panther, Deadpool, Luke Cage, and Kingpin. Here is her CV page for more information.

Physicals

Before I get into her powers, I'm going to talk about her physicals and stats, which are quite impressive.

Here are some of her strength feats:

Let's move on to durability:

All of these opponents have superhuman strength to varying degrees, and she took them all.

Last but not least, speed/skill:

Powers

Mary's physicals are good, but her powers are where she will really shine in this fight. Telepathy is limited to mind-reading and she has never demonstrated that, so I will skip it; we won't need it anyways. I'll cover her telekinesis and pyrokinesis.

For telekinesis, she mostly uses it on small objects like swords, knives, and projectiles:

On one occasion, she has shown to be able to fly up an elevator shaft using her telekinesis.

Now for the best part...pyrokinesis:

As you can see from her feats, she uses a mix of close-quarters combat and powers when fighting opponents. It is very much in character for her to use her pyrokinesis in a fight.

Elektra

No Caption Provided

Introduction

Elektra shouldn't need much of an introduction, but here is her CV page anyways.

She is considered to be one of, if not the most, dangerous assassins on Earth. People like Punisher, Wolverine, Iron Man, and Batroc have stated how dangerous and skilled she is. But let's get into her actual feats.

Physicals

Strength:

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1) Slices a guy in half

2) Karate chops through 7 layers of concrete bricks

3) Punches through a man and the concrete wall behind him

4) A casual kick snaps a robot's neck

5) Stabs and lifts two adult men over herself

Durability/Pain Tolerance:

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1) Tanks 2 blasts from Skrull Cyclops

2-3) She's fine and continues to fight after being kicked off a building

4) Doesn't even flinch after getting an arrow to the shoulder

5) Survives being stabbed through the heart and manages to walk a few blocks to Matt Murdock's apartment

Speed:

Elektra is one of the most consistent bullet-timers around. Here are some of her best bullet-dodging feats:

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1) While completely surrounded by multiple gunmen, she dodges every bullet fired at her

2) Deflects bullets with her sais

3-4) Dodges a sniper shot

5) Dodges more sniper shots by reacting to the muzzle flash

6) Cuts a bullet in half that was fired by Black Widow

Not only that, but she is extremely acrobatic and agile, and she loves to blitz people.

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1-2) Catches a knife while her back was turned

3) By the age of 15, she was an Olympic-level gymnast

4) She swipes a gun from Punisher before he can even react

5) Blitzes a guy from several feet away before he can finish a word

6) Too fast for Wolverine

7) Blitzes a group of armed men before any of them can even fire

Now for some of her skill & stealth feats:

Before I get into her sais, here are some of Elektra's best fights:

I will happily provide more of her fights or context as to why these are impressive victories if needed :)

This last section is about Elektra's gear.

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1-2) Paralyzes anyone that tries to use her sais

3) They are sharp enough to stab through Red She Hulk

4) And to stab Red Hulk, who believes they are made out of adamantium

She also uses her sais as ranged weapons, such as using the hilt to hit Daredevil and even rebounding the sai to hit a fleeing target. She also uses it to plug guns.

She uses shuriken as well, and she is extremely precise and deadly with them.

That about sums up Elektra. For now.

FOX Azazel

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  • Azazel is able to teleport himself and others in quick succession
  • He is a skilled fighter and swordsman who wields 2 swords
  • His prehensile tail is sharp enough to pierce humans with ease and strong enough to support the weight of an adult male
  • He was easily able to take down a squad of roughly two dozen armed CIA agents
  • He is fast enough to react to gunfire and teleport out of the way of Havok's blasts
  • He is also strong, fast, and skilled enough to hold the upper hand in a 1v2 fight against Beast & Havok, and was about to kill Beast if not for the intervention of Mystique.
  • He trained Mystique in martial arts and acrobatics, and we know how much of a skilled fighter Mystique is

Here is a compilation video of all of Azazel's feats: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qm9g2v26AcA&frags=pl%2Cwn. It's only a little over 2 minutes long.

Note how his first tactic against the CIA agents and Beast was to teleport them into the air. As you can see from the video at 0:17, he teleports well above the clouds, which is at least several hundred feet into the air. This is a fall that instantly killed the agents upon impact with the ground or building.

The final part of Azazel's introduction is a scaling from Beast. Their fight begins at 1:28 in the video. Beast has superhuman strength, durability, speed, and agility. Here are some GIFs to demonstrate Beast's abilities:

Ragdolls Wolverine, a grown adult male with an adamantium skeleton
Ragdolls Wolverine, a grown adult male with an adamantium skeleton
Ragdolls an unsuspecting Magneto and almost manages to drown him. Note how the impact from this attack caused Magneto to bleed from the back of his head, which is noticeable when he is in the water.
Ragdolls an unsuspecting Magneto and almost manages to drown him. Note how the impact from this attack caused Magneto to bleed from the back of his head, which is noticeable when he is in the water.
Catches a car thrown by Storm, spins around with it, and tosses it back several dozens of feet away
Catches a car thrown by Storm, spins around with it, and tosses it back several dozens of feet away

And finally, in his fight against Psylocke, Beast was able to evade the majority of her deadly attacks, and managed to grab her and toss her several dozens of feet up into the air and on top of a building.

Beast doesn't have any notable speed feats other than being able to run around the entire X-Mansion in a matter of seconds. We can also scale his speed based on his fights against Wolverine, Psylocke, and the fodder Brotherhood mutants in X3.

Despite Beast's strength and agility, Azazel held the upper hand against him in their fight and almost succeeded in killing him without the use of his swords.

Perks

Basic Knowledge

This provides my team with the knowledge of your team members that can be found on a Wikia page. This allows us to know the history, powers, abilities, equipment, and weaknesses of everyone on your team. You have this perk as well, so neither of us are going into the battle completely blind. However, I have two other perks that put your team at a disadvantage against mine...

15 Minutes of Prep

During the 15 minutes of prep, my team will discuss their powers and abilities, discuss their opponents' powers and abilities, survey the environment, prioritize our targets, and come up with a strategy. This is an advantage my team has over yours, since you do not have any prep at all. You are unable to plan a strategy, discuss everyone's abilities, plant the C4s, and survey the environment. It is somewhat of a complex environment, so this puts you at a disadvantage against my team. Essentially, we have the element of surprise.

Decent Teamwork

This perk allows my team to be willing to work together as allies. This is great for me because it is unlikely that anyone on my team would have worked together without this perk. It also gives me an advantage over your team because Jason Todd would NOT work with the others. I'm not sure about Roy, and IIRC, Katana and Killer Croc have worked together in the past. Therefore, only 2-3 out of your 4 team members will be willing to work with each other during the fight.

Earpieces

Their only purpose is to keep in communication during the fight, which will result in better coordination and teamwork.

Strategy

There are 3 steps to the strategy that my team will use to beat your team.

Step 1: As shown in his battle against the CIA agents and like he attempted with Beast, it is very much in character for Azazel to teleport people into the air, which will result in them falling to their deaths. This technically isn't BFR since you aren't leaving the battlefield, you're just going far up and back down with a high enough velocity to cause instant death upon impact on the ground :) Kevd4wg also gave me the okay for this.

Jason & Roy are the most immediate threats due to their ranged attacks. Katana and Killer Croc need to get close in order to be a threat. Therefore, our priority will be Jason > Roy > Katana > Killer Croc. Based on the video I presented before, Azazel can easily grab, teleport, and drop each of you one at a time within a matter of seconds. I highly doubt that anyone except Killer Croc would be able to survive a fall like this. Even if they do somehow manage to survive, they will be severely damaged and weakened.

Step 2: This is more of a back-up plan in case anyone survives the drop or one of you somehow manages to stop Azazel, which I highly doubt will happen. This step involves Typhoid Mary combusting your gear, one at a time. Mary has shown many times to be able to instantly combust people and objects, and since Kev said I can't directly use it on organic matter, Mary will go for your weapons. The priority will be the same as from the first step. Jason's C4 (which will cause them to explode) and guns, Roy's bow, Katana's katana. This will leave 3/4 of you completely weaponless, which severely affects their combat capabilities. Which leads us to the final step...

Step 3: The Slaughter. If you manage to survive the fall, you will be weakened and injured. Your gear and weapons will then be destroyed. This leaves you vulnerable to an attack by Elektra, which she will be waiting to do the moment the first two steps are completed. As I have shown in her section, she has the physicals, skills, and weapons to take all of you out given that you have no weapons to defend yourselves. Elektra will initiate the attack on Killer Croc, since he is the most dangerous opponent due to the fact that he: 1) doesn't use weapons and thus isn't "disabled" like the others are, and 2) likely won't be too injured from the fall given his superhuman durability. Typhoid Mary and Azazel will focus on taking out the others, and once Elektra finishes with Killer Croc, she can help with the leftovers. Given how sharp her sais have been shown to be, they will definitely be able to pierce Killer Croc despite his durability.

And just like that, your entire team is dead before you can even counter.

Conclusion

Individually, I may not have the best or strongest characters of the tournament, but together with my perks and strategy, I definitely have what it takes to take out your entire team quickly and easily. Let's recap:

  • Typhoid Mary: Not only does she have very good physicals, but her pyrokinesis will be used to destroy all your weapons
  • Elektra: She may not even be needed if you can prove how your team counters the first step of my strategy, but even if you do, Elektra has the physicals and skill to kill everyone on your team.
  • Azazel: He may only be worth 1 point, but his teleportation tactic is very deadly to all but those with the best of durabilities. Seeing as 3/4 of your team members don't have superhuman durability, they will not survive the fall.
  • My perks allow my team to know who we are facing, work together, and come up with a strategy during prep. Because of our ear pieces, we can also keep communication going during the encounter.
  • You have a solid team, but since we have prep and decent teamwork and you don't, we hold a significant advantage over your team

Your move!

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#7 Posted by geekryan (3170 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Edited by Ashrym (2675 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Should have my post by Saturday

edit: just running a bit behind. working on the reply today

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#9 Edited by Ashrym (2675 posts) - - Show Bio

Post 1

Katana

No Caption Provided

After the death of her husband at the hands of the Yakuza, martial arts expert and samurai master Tatsu Yamashiro journeyed to America, where she became the vigilante hero known as Katana.

Trained in martial arts and swordsmanship from a young age, Katana possesses vast combat skills and tactical expertise. Katana wields the mystical Soultaker. The souls of her dead husband and countless others currently reside in her sword, and she is able to communicate with them (among other things).

Katana has been associated with the Outsiders, Birds of Prey, Justice League of America, and the Suicide Squad.

Comic Vine page: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/katana/4005-9547/

Katana is pretty straight forward. She is a master of the sword, martial arts, stealth, and tactics.

The interesting part of those images is that Katana has demonstrated superiority over her competitor as the world's greatest assassin as well as the predecessor holding that title. Katana is one of the few people to earn Shiva's respect.

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An injured Katana is capable of facing opponents like Shiva. Shiva chose to leave so that she because she wanted to face Katana when Katana is not fighting at a disadvantage. However, it's not Katana's skill that truly sets her apart. It's her speed and agility. The below group demonstrates Katana moving from behind someone to intercept Green Arrow's point blank knocked and drawn arrow and cutting it in half. I also included a reminder of speed blitzing a master swordman in Black Lantern Maseo, avoiding chains that are fast enough to create whirl winds, casually overtaking a car doing 60, speed dashing past an opponent to cut him off from the weapons to where he was racing, catching an aircraft after it took off, various sword deflecting, and an opening into early Katana developing her danger sense while also blocking a lot of simultaneous attacks.

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I originally thought the GA arrow feat was pretty impressive but then she duplicated it save Waller from Flag. She caught the bullet with her sword.

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Bullets and projectiles are nothing to Katana. Even energy is something she deflects casually and redirects strategically.

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Even more impressive is the fact she repeated the GA and Flag feats by intercepting General Zod's fist.

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I included Katana blocking Zod's heat vision in this intentionally, as well as a demonstration in the final image of the condition she was in after he tossed her into a wall (ie barely conscious).

Katana and Harley can wade through troops faster than Boomerang (ie a Flash villain and used to speed) can drop a single opponent.

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And there is her level of stealth, of course.

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I included Katana sensing attacks without seeing earlier. She's developed that to the point Enchantress cannot magically cloak herself, for example. Meanwhile, Katana can disappear from the middle of her team without a trace to the point even Martian Manhunter is unable to detect her, or demonstrate how she can hide in plain sight. Even if someone manages to overcome this sixth sense, her sword has it's own senses and will warn her.

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Her stealth puts her beyond even characters like Batman.

Red Hood

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Jason Todd was the second Robin, but was brutally murdered by the Joker. After he was resurrected, Jason learned Batman did nothing to avenge his death. Anguished and seeking vengeance, he initially turned against his mentor and took on the Clown Prince's former identity: the Red Hood. Eventually coming back to the Bat-Family and assembling a team of anti-heroes known as the Outlaws (New 52 and Rebirth), Jason once again fights for justice...on his own terms.

Jason has an impressive list in his training. Originally a Robin he trained how to fight under Batman. After he was resurrected he trained with the League of Assassins, including under Lady Shiva, and later Talia sponsored additional training with top world class specialists in a variety of fields. That's how he learned to kill. Eventually, Talia introduced Jason to the All Caste for mystical training and he was the first person in a thousand years to survive the cleansing.

Comic Vine page: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/jason-todd/4005-6849/

Jason Todd is also straight forward. He is an expert in multiple forms of martial arts and weapons, a master detective, and has access to tremendous wealth and technology. Additionally, Red Hood has peak human physicals that were enhanced beyond normal human limits after his resurrection in the Lazarus Pit and with additional mystical training from the All Caste.

Strength

Jason Todd has significantly higher strength than a peak human like Batman.

Skill

This is better than Joker's daughter

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Both shot, Jason was chained up point blank, and he easily evaded both. He also demonstrated that he could kill a man while chained up using a fountain pen and his foot. Boomerang and the other two guards were dropped by Jason's chest taser. More on that later.

It is also good to point out that Red Hood was holding back against Batman.

Speed

Durability

Stealth and Intelligence

He is multiple doctorate level in criminology.

No Caption Provided

Red Hood typically carries an assortment of devices including a grappling gun, high tech blades and knives, high tech pistols, surveillance equipment, miniature explosives, lock picks, a crowbar, and often an assortment of more exotic high tech alien weapons for special occasions. His All Caste training allows him to manifest the mystical all-blades, and we will go over his chest taser mentioned earlier.

All-Blades

The taser plate deserves a specific mention because it will be important later.

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The taser can bypass Batman's insulated armor, and not having a full charge can drop Artemis briefly. This is what a big charge looks like...

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It one shots a large room with many opponents.

Killer Croc

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Waylon Jones was born with a genetic mutation giving him a reptile's skin, sharp claws, and teeth; due to genetic atavism. Croc became a circus wrestler who would rise to conquer the Gotham Mob racket only then to become one of Batman's most physically imposing rogues. Croc was later infected with a mutagenic virus that led to his more bestial appearance.

Comic Vine page: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/killer-croc/4005-3725/

Killer Croc is a tank. After becoming his current form he developed animalistic senses, speed, and reflexes as well as super human strength and durability, thick armored bullet-proof hide, natural weaponry in claws and bite, the ability to remain submerged for an indeterminate amount of time, and significant regeneration.

Strength

Durability

Speed

Croc's speed is not prominent as the statements show. Speed is occasionally there, but nothing exceptional compared to some of the characters in the match. He more often tanks or takes damage and heals.

Arsenal

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Born as Roy Harper, Arsenal was orphaned and taken in by Green Arrow. Oliver Queen took Roy's strong archery skills and trained him until Roy became an expert marksman. However, knowing how to hold your own in combat doesn't prepare you for all of life's challenges. A run of unfortunate events, including the Teen Titans disbanding, a break-up, and some struggles with Green Arrow, opened the door to a treacherous path for Roy. He leaned on drugs to get through the hard times.

While Roy’s since gotten clean, like everyone who’s struggled with substance abuse, addiction remains a constant conflict for him. But Arsenal’s thrived as a hero in spite of it. He's exhibited courage and skill at Green Arrow's side, as a member of the Teen Titans, and fighting alongside another hero with a dark past, Red Hood. Though he's perhaps suffered more than most, Arsenal continues to battle bravely, both against foes and his inner demons.

Comic Vine page: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/roy-harper/4005-3404/

Unlike my other characters, Roy has no physical mutations or supernatural abilities. He is an expert marksman, a technological guru, and rides the line between bravery and stupidity.

Skill

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Four shots at once, two shots three times in such rapid succession the first couple is still there after the third couple is fired (speed feat and skill), blows up a truck following with a kick and simultaneously shooting an electrically charged arrow behind him, disarms Cheshire by shoot through her blade while she is in active combat, ricochet shot, easily dodges rapid fire surprise attacks, easily overwhelms room full of armed drug dealers, and shoots and arrow with an arrow. I can find more skill and speed feats if needed.

Strength

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Easily strong enough to hold a man up by his throat one-handed. Also strong enough to through Donna Troy with her own lasso.

Arrows

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Piercing and explosive arrows are common for Arsenal to use. The two images provided show that the explosive power exceeds Donna Troy's attack. Other assorted arrows include zip lines and grappling lines, shock arrows, glue arrows, flares and incendiaries, net arrows, and more. These are used offensively, defensively, and for mobility. He also carries surveillance equipment. Let me know you need more info on gear.

Perks -- important

1 -- character not on list (Katana)

This gives me a powerful offensive and defensive character.

3 -- unlimited ammo (Roy Harper)

Arrows are one of the easiest things to run out of with ammo

3 -- basic knowledge

Your assessment in your own perks was way off base in advantages. We are not surprised just because you have prep and we do not need prep to discuss weaknesses. The basic knowledge is there for versatile characters like Arsenal so he knows which specialty arrows would be most effective as an example of it's relevance. Surprising my team does not exist simply because prep exists. That's something you would need to prove. Instead, it mean he won't do something dumb like shoot Typhoid Mary with a net arrow that she's just going to incinerate or TK off.

2 -- 3 C4's (Red Hood)

Red Hood does not need prep to use the C4 either. He only needs opportunity during the battle. Given his level of stealth and expertise with explosives he can make use of it.

1 -- ear pieces

This might blow your mind, but Suicide Squad and the Outlaws already use earpieces as standard equipment. I included these for the team so that our techie guys have the option of using earpieces to create remote detonators without destroying communication or other devices that might be needed. The best use of explosives requires the best options in rigging those explosives. Given the level of technical skill and knowledge Red Hood and Arsenal have, it's a cheap remote detonator addition.

Rebuttals

  • Beast cannot possibly be ragdolling a grown man with metal bones as mentioned because Wolverine was bone only in Days of Future Past
  • Not only is scaling pushing it without additional feats, Beast also appeared to continue developing his additional mutation with no indication he was strong enough to throw a car in First Class. Azazel did ragdoll man-sized opponents but let's not try to push that too far.
  • I see Elektra being stabbed in the chest, not necessarily the heart. Where was that established?
  • There is no indication that Luke Cage or Jessica Jones were using full strength striking Typhoid Mary. She can take quite a bit of punishment but this gets back to over scaling. Accepting those as legitimate would mean accepting Zod hit Katana full force. Is that really the rabbit hole you want to go down?
  • You are assuming all of Mystique's skill came from Azazel. For that to be true we would need to see an indication of it somewhere or show a similar level of skill. Again, too much scaling.
  • The Azazel vs Beast battle you are using was not as one-sided as you mention. Beast saved Havoc from a surprise attack at the beginning and prevented Azazel from teleport dropping them. Beast ended up on the losing end but still had his moments.
  • I got a laugh out of your comment that my team would not work together. It's a clear demonstration that you and the sources you checked aren't as familiar with my team as you might think.
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Killer Croc is Roy Harper's AA sponsor. They have a close personal relationship that started with Roy trying to commit suicide by Croc, Croc recognizing what was going on and helping Roy straighten out. Jason and Roy are close friends from their time in Red Hood and the Outlaws, followed by the Red Hood and Arsenal series. They just had the two together in the Outlaws annual before Roy was killed at Sanctuary. Batman knew how close they were and delivered the news personally. These guy know each other well and have worked together.

There are issues with your strategy:

  • First, it is very much in line with Azazel to teleport drop opponents. I agree. The problem with this is that everyone knows to expect it because that comes with basic knowledge. My entire team has the reflexes to cut him in half, rip him in half, or shoot him point blank. He has nothing on Katana's speed, deadly attacks, and danger sense. That's if he can even find them. They have stealth too. Stealth that stopped Martian and Kryptonian senses.
  • Typhoid Mary cannot combust Soultaker or the All-Blades. Zod couldn't melt Soultaker. Even if she could combust the All-Blades Jason just make more. Crock doesn't use weapons. Her range has not been established as exceeding the range of Arsenal and Red Hood. She also cannot combust what she cannot see from what I understand so stealth easily stymies that.
  • Elektra's sai don't need to be sharp enough to pierce Croc's skin. They need to be long enough to do significant damage. Not that it matters. Katana is faster than Elektra, capable of cutting through her sai, and capable of a stealth attack. You demonstrated stealth vs Daredevil senses. I demonstrated stealth vs Martian and Kryptonian sense. Martian and Kryptonian senses >>>>> Daredevil.
  • And, since you were mistaken about being unarmed, Elektra would never be facing unarmed opponents.

This is what I expect really happens...

Azazel teleports in as expected. He gets stabbed by Red Hood, who has the reflexes to tag speedsters when he is serious. In the unlikely event he gets teleported up, he still stabs Azazel, who was grabbed by Beast (who is slower than Jason Todd) as demonstrated when Azazel could not teleport away from Beast. In either case Azazel dies quickly. If Jason is falling he has demonstrated solid impact durability in his armor such as the Frankenstein scan, skills to avoid damage from high falls as per the Supergirl scan, often has glider technology, definitely has a grappling line to use in order to save himself, can be caught by Croc to help break his fall, and Arsenal definitely has lines to put out, and also at least two net arrows to save Jason from the fall.

There is no possible way your scenario works to take out my team. Unfortunately for you, Azazel does go for Jason first because that is what you planned out and all it does is lose your one pointer.

Honestly, Jason can one shot your whole team with his chest taser. They don't have that level of durability.

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#10 Posted by Ashrym (2675 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by Thatoneguy887 (1098 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#12 Posted by geekryan (3170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym said:

@geekryan: okay, your turn. :)

Awesome! I should have my post up by Friday

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#13 Posted by geekryan (3170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym: sorry for the delay. My post should be up by tomorrow or Sunday at the latest!

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#14 Posted by geekryan (3170 posts) - - Show Bio

Post #2

Katana Counters

Basically, everything you posted for Katana has been replicated by Elektra or could be replicated by her... Everything from unarmed combat, feats with weapons, stealth, speed, agility, skill, statements of being the greatest assassin, etc. In fact, for most of what you posted, I demonstrated to a similar degree in my opener.

The only thing Katana has over Elektra is a magical sword. However, as I demonstrated in my opener, Elektra has far superior feats of strength and durability/pain tolerance. I would also argue that Elektra's bullet-timing feats are much more impressive, as she has reacted to sniper rounds. Katana can block energy with her sword, but that isn't a huge deal in this fight.

Elektra has also fought and/or defeated far more powerful and established opponents than Katana has, i.e. Bullseye, Taskmaster, Lady Bullseye, Silver Samurai, Iron Fist, Daredevil, etc. Katana's only notable fight from what you presented is against Lady Shiva.

An injured Katana is capable of facing opponents like Shiva.

This wasn't even a legit fight. It lasted like 3 panels and wasn't conclusive at all. You can't use this to compare Katana to Lady Shiva.

Even more impressive is the fact she repeated the GA and Flag feats by intercepting General Zod's fist.

I included Katana blocking Zod's heat vision in this intentionally, as well as a demonstration in the final image of the condition she was in after he tossed her into a wall (ie barely conscious).

The feats with General Zod are more about Katana's use of skill and technique rather than strength. Very much an outlier too as Katana has never faced an opponent anywhere near Zod's level.

Katana and Harley can wade through troops faster than Boomerang (ie a Flash villain and used to speed) can drop a single opponent.

Losing to Flash for a majority of fights doesn't mean Boomerang should be faster and more efficient at killing fodder.

Meanwhile, Katana can disappear from the middle of her team without a trace to the point even Martian Manhunter is unable to detect her

J'onn didn't even react, nor did it seem like he cared. He didn't even say anything, so you can't assume he was unaware where she went. When Elektra did this to Daredevil, he was actually surprised and demonstrated that. His senses are also a lot more developed than J'onn's, minus the obvious things like the super vision.

Elektra does this on the regular. She's even done this to Iron Fist DURING a fight, which is much more impressive:

No Caption Provided

While we're here, I'd like to emphasize this showing:

  • Elektra steps off the edge of a building
  • Danny was already running to the edge to catch her
  • Danny looks over the edge and Elektra is nowhere to be found
  • Elektra appears behind Danny, coming down at him from above
  • She strikes Danny with a kick, essentially blitzing him, and hard enough to make him spit out blood from the mouth

Here is the full fight again.

Iron Fist, arguably THE best and most skilled fighter on Earth-616, with his own impressive set of speed and skill feats. Elektra disappeared from his view by stepping off a building, appeared behind him a moment later, and landed a hard kick on him before he could react. They then fought to a stalemate until Danny brought out his Chi.

demonstrate how she can hide in plain sight

Blending in as a waitress is hardly impressive, especially in a combat situation such as ours.

Her stealth puts her beyond even characters like Batman.

This is an extremely bold statement that you will need to back up with more feats than the 1 image of Katana slicing Batman from behind him that you presented.

Red Hood Counters

The strength and skill feats you presented are impressive, but there are two things you need to provide more context on: his fight against Deathstroke, and his fight against Lady Shiva. I'm willing to bet that there is more context for these two feats.

His speed feats are okay but not too impressive. Green Arrow was taken completely by surprise from close range, Supergirl being impressed with his speed is just a useless statement, and it is unclear if he is aim-dodging, bullet-timing, or just plain lucky.

His durability is good too, but I don't see how Elektra's sai wouldn't penetrate his armour when her sais have stabbed superhumans like Red Hulk and Red She-Hulk. He seems to have more blunt durability than anything, which won't be too useful when getting stabbed or dropped from several hundred feet in the air. Bulletproof armour can only do so much.

His stealth and intelligence are useful, but not in our particular fight. This will be explained more later on. Being able to evade Supergirl's senses is a solid feat though.

The All-Blades could prove troublesome, but he won't last long enough to use them. In CQC, I would argue that Elektra would still dominate Jason even with the All-Blades. She's just way too fast and skilled for him.

The taser will be addressed later on.

Killer Croc Counters

He's definitely stronger and more durable than anyone else in this match, but he is severely lacking in speed and skill. He would be a threat to Azazel only. Elektra would have no trouble at all with him, since he would still be susceptible to getting stabbed in vital spots and/or have pressure points used against him. He could possibly be trouble for Typhoid Mary, but that isn't a concern for me based on my strategy and Mary has shown to be able to stab through durable opponents such as Wolverine anyways. Other than Killer Croc being bulletproof, his piercing durability doesn't seem too exceptional unless you have more to show, and his vital spots are just as vulnerable as anyone else's (AFAIK).

The "survival" of this feat isn't shown in the scans you posted. Can you provide more context for this? Did he survive but was knocked out/injured? Did he immediately get back up after the fall?

Elektra could easily take him, and I'm confident Typhoid Mary could as well with some difficulty. He is the least of my concerns from your team.

Arsenal Counters

Roy isn't too threatening when you're dealing with consistent bullet-timers like Elektra, somewhat-less-consistent-but-still-impressive-bullet-timers like Typhoid Mary, and a teleporter who can react to gunfire. Not to mention that he is severely disadvantaged without his bow, which Mary can combust or TK away, or Elektra can disarm/break. He would also surely die from a fall of a few hundred feet in the air; with no tall buildings to grapple onto, it isn't likely he will be able to correct himself while free-falling and save himself.

Piercing and explosive arrows are common for Arsenal to use. The two images provided show that the explosive power exceeds Donna Troy's attack. Other assorted arrows include zip lines and grappling lines, shock arrows, glue arrows, flares and incendiaries, net arrows, and more. These are used offensively, defensively, and for mobility. He also carries surveillance equipment. Let me know you need more info on gear.

The trick arrows are something I'd be more concerned about, but as I said, without a bow, Roy and his trick arrows are limited. My only question about his gear is how standard all these different types of arrows are for him?

Perk Counters

Your assessment in your own perks was way off base in advantages. We are not surprised just because you have prep and we do not need prep to discuss weaknesses. The basic knowledge is there for versatile characters like Arsenal so he knows which specialty arrows would be most effective as an example of it's relevance. Surprising my team does not exist simply because prep exists. That's something you would need to prove. Instead, it mean he won't do something dumb like shoot Typhoid Mary with a net arrow that she's just going to incinerate or TK off.

It isn't off though. We both have basic knowledge. All that means is that we both know who our opponents are based on a Wikia page. However, since my team has prep, we get to survey the battlefield, plan a strategy, get into position, etc. You get none of that. When your team spawns, it will be in an unfamiliar area, with no chance to discuss a strategy or get into position. Since we know who you are, what you are capable of, and get to plan accordingly, we hold the advantage when the battle begins. The battle starts on our terms and since we have a strategy and we are in position, we get the first strike unless your team is fast enough to react to us before we can execute our initial move, which isn't the case.

Red Hood does not need prep to use the C4 either. He only needs opportunity during the battle. Given his level of stealth and expertise with explosives he can make use of it.

This won't work for a few reasons.

First, as already mentioned, your team will spawn in an unknown area that my team has already scouted. You will not initially see my team until we reveal ourselves, since none of you have x-ray vision or the superhuman senses necessary to detect two extremely skilled ninjas/assassins and a teleporter.

Second, your spawn point is pretty much out in the open. You are vulnerable from the get-go, which will make it impossible for Red Hood to sneak away to plant C4s, especially since we will initiate the attack on Red Hood right away, as stated in my strategy.

Third, you didn't provide any feats that Red Hood has utilized C4s before. We can assume he knows how to use them, I won't deny that, but since he is still fighting in character, what leads you to believe he will immediately go and plant C4s when the battle starts? That seems like a very unlikely strategy for him, especially since he will be targeted from the start.

This might blow your mind, but Suicide Squad and the Outlaws already use earpieces as standard equipment. I included these for the team so that our techie guys have the option of using earpieces to create remote detonators without destroying communication or other devices that might be needed. The best use of explosives requires the best options in rigging those explosives. Given the level of technical skill and knowledge Red Hood and Arsenal have, it's a cheap remote detonator addition.

Can you provide proof that this is standard equipment for all 4 of your characters?

You will also need to provide feats that anyone on your team has used ear pieces as remote detonators and explain how you will plan on setting them up without any prep.

Rebuttal Counters

  • Beast cannot possibly be ragdolling a grown man with metal bones as mentioned because Wolverine was bone only in Days of Future Past

You are right about this, I must admit. My apologies. However, it is still quite impressive that Beast was easily rag dolling a full-grown adult male of at least 200 pounds.

  • Not only is scaling pushing it without additional feats, Beast also appeared to continue developing his additional mutation with no indication he was strong enough to throw a car in First Class. Azazel did ragdoll man-sized opponents but let's not try to push that too far.

FOX characters are composite. All the feats from the movies can apply. Also, Katana, Arsenal, and Red Hood are all average sized adults...just saying.

  • I see Elektra being stabbed in the chest, not necessarily the heart. Where was that established?

I actually can't find where it was established that her heart was stabbed or not. We'll assume it wasn't her heart since I can't find the proof. However, it was still a very fatal stab straight through her chest, which based on the area, at least pierced her lungs or another major organ. Regardless, it is still very impressive that she was stabbed like this and still managed to walk her way to Matt's apartment a few blocks away.

  • There is no indication that Luke Cage or Jessica Jones were using full strength striking Typhoid Mary. She can take quite a bit of punishment but this gets back to over scaling. Accepting those as legitimate would mean accepting Zod hit Katana full force. Is that really the rabbit hole you want to go down?

They may not have been using their full strength, but since Mary set Jessica on fire and tried to stab Luke with her katana, I don't see why they would be holding back that much. Even their lower-end striking feats are enough to cause serious damage:

A casual backhand strike from Luke sends a fodder ninja flying dozens of feet into the air

A casual strike from Jessica goes through the hood of a car

  • You are assuming all of Mystique's skill came from Azazel. For that to be true we would need to see an indication of it somewhere or show a similar level of skill. Again, too much scaling.

It was heavily implied. At the end of First Class, Mystique joined the Hellfire Club. No one else in the Club had fighting skills except Azazel. At the beginning of Days of Future Past, Mystique's fighting skills were already developed. It is possible she sought training from others, but given her affinity for mutants, hatred for humans, and relationship with Azazel, it is more likely she learned from him and unlikely she signed up for Taekwondo classes at the local dojo. We can see from Azazel's limited feats that he incorporated acrobatics in his fighting, so it isn't far off to assume he taught Mystique the same moves.

  • The Azazel vs Beast battle you are using was not as one-sided as you mention. Beast saved Havoc from a surprise attack at the beginning and prevented Azazel from teleport dropping them. Beast ended up on the losing end but still had his moments.

I never claimed it was completely one-sided. All I said was that Azazel held the upper hand and would have killed Beast if not for the intervention of Mystique. Holding the upper hand in a 1v2 fight against a superhuman like Beast and a powerful energy projector like Havoc is impressive given his limited feats.

  • I got a laugh out of your comment that my team would not work together. It's a clear demonstration that you and the sources you checked aren't as familiar with my team as you might think.

Can you please provide feats showing that all 4 have worked together in a combat situation then, instead of laughing my comment off? :)

Killer Croc and Katana have definitely worked together. Arsenal and Red Hood have worked together as well. But what about any other combination of the four?

I found at least 2 occasions where Jason Todd and Killer Croc have been at odds:

  1. Batman #357-359 & Detective Comics #524-526: Killer Croc literally killed Jason's parents
  2. Nightwing: Year One: Dick Grayson and Jason Todd fought against Killer Croc, who had Alfred captive.

Both these instances lead me to believe that Jason Todd and Killer Croc are more likely to fight each other than work together...

You say that Arsenal and Killer Croc are affiliated, but have they ever fought alongside each other?

  • First, it is very much in line with Azazel to teleport drop opponents. I agree. The problem with this is that everyone knows to expect it because that comes with basic knowledge. My entire team has the reflexes to cut him in half, rip him in half, or shoot him point blank. He has nothing on Katana's speed, deadly attacks, and danger sense. That's if he can even find them. They have stealth too. Stealth that stopped Martian and Kryptonian senses.

Basic knowledge is based on a Wikia page. Here is the most informative Wikia page that exists for Azazel. See anything about him teleporting and dropping opponents?

You are Team 1. Your spawn point is the red circle on the map:

No Caption Provided

It is broad daylight. There are places for cover, but not many options for you nearby to completely hide, climb up, etc. Any aspect of stealth that your team may have is severely handicapped in this environment. Elektra will be hiding, waiting to strike, at a vantage point that gives her the best view of the area. As a highly skilled and trained ninja/assassin, this is a common thing for her to do. With earpieces, it allows us to communicate your position the moment you spawn. Mary and Azazel will be hiding out of view. It will take seconds for you to spawn, for Elektra to identify your position, relay the information, and for my team to strike.

Although Azazel has reacted to bullets, your team definitely has the superior speed feats, I will admit. However, you will not know that it is common for Azazel to teleport people into the air, and unless you prove me otherwise, none of your characters have gone up against a rapid teleporter like Azazel. Since Red Hood is the first target, he will be teleported into the air well above cloud-level and dropped before he or anyone on your team can react. This will put your team on high alert and might allow you to counter the next teleport, but you will need to prove they can counter a teleporter like this.

  • Typhoid Mary cannot combust Soultaker or the All-Blades. Zod couldn't melt Soultaker. Even if she could combust the All-Blades Jason just make more. Crock doesn't use weapons. Her range has not been established as exceeding the range of Arsenal and Red Hood. She also cannot combust what she cannot see from what I understand so stealth easily stymies that.

The energy output of Zod's heat vision is definitely superior than Mary's pyrokinesis, but there's a difference. Zod's heat vision was targeting the base of the sword, above the hilt:

No Caption Provided

The sword was clearly getting damaged because it literally screamed "IT BURNNNNS" and asked for release. Mary's pyrokinesis is much larger in AoE, having affected the bodies of people (Wolverine), a school bus, and two of Punisher's guns (a machine gun and a handgun). Perhaps the pyrokinesis won't burn the steel, but what do you have to suggest that the hilt of her katana won't combust? Even if it just burns instead of completely combusting, the heat would most certainly cause Katana to lose her grip. From there, it's very easy for Mary to use her TK to toss the weapon away as I have shown she can do. Even if Katana manages to grab her sword back before that happens, that's long enough of a distraction for Elektra to close in and take her out.

  • Elektra's sai don't need to be sharp enough to pierce Croc's skin. They need to be long enough to do significant damage.

Are you claiming that a stab to the eyes or brain won't be enough to drop Killer Croc...? We have basic knowledge, remember that. We know Killer Croc has tough and thick skin. Elektra won't attempt to stab his torso. She'll go for the vulnerable spots, i.e. eyes, throat, brain, etc. The average Okinawan Sai is 18-21 inches long. Because of the length of the hilt, the center part of the blade is less than that, about 14 inches. You're telling me that 14 inches of depth won't do any harm to Killer Croc?

  • Not that it matters. Katana is faster than Elektra, capable of cutting through her sai, and capable of a stealth attack. You demonstrated stealth vs Daredevil senses. I demonstrated stealth vs Martian and Kryptonian sense. Martian and Kryptonian senses >>>>> Daredevil.

Once again, you are relying on the aspect of stealth that you simply do not have. You have 3 stealthy characters but with little opportunity to take advantage of it. You are in an unfamiliar environment, in broad daylight, with no prep. My team had the chance to survey the area, strategize, and get into position. You have no chance at stealth unless one of your characters can turn invisible.

Also, claiming that Katana is faster than Elektra is laughable when Elektra has significantly better bullet-timing feats. She too has caught arrows, cut bullets, deflected gunfire, etc. Has Katana reacted to sniper rounds? Elektra has been too fast for Wolverine and Punisher, and regularly blitzes opponents from various distances. Want more speed feats? Here you go:

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  1. Dodging point-blank bullets, moving faster than a camera can catch, blitzing people, etc. (For context: IIRC, she allowed herself to be captured)
  2. Deflects an energy blast with her sword
  3. Dodges multiple projectiles thrown by Bullseye, arguably the most accurate villain on Earth
  4. Casually takes down 2 men before they can finish a sentence
  5. While close to death, she's still faster than a rattlesnake
  6. Deflects a point-blank shot with a pipe
  7. Catches an arrow fired by Bullseye (under disguise as Hawkeye)
  8. Blitzes SHIELD agents

Azazel teleports in as expected. He gets stabbed by Red Hood, who has the reflexes to tag speedsters when he is serious. In the unlikely event he gets teleported up, he still stabs Azazel, who was grabbed by Beast (who is slower than Jason Todd) as demonstrated when Azazel could not teleport away from Beast. In either case Azazel dies quickly. If Jason is falling he has demonstrated solid impact durability in his armor such as the Frankenstein scan, skills to avoid damage from high falls as per the Supergirl scan, often has glider technology, definitely has a grappling line to use in order to save himself, can be caught by Croc to help break his fall, and Arsenal definitely has lines to put out, and also at least two net arrows to save Jason from the fall.

There are so many things wrong with this...

  • Reflexes to tag speedsters? Where? What about going up against teleporters?
  • Azazel was free-falling with Beast for a few seconds before Beast grabbed onto him. Against the CIA agents, he was teleporting them up and teleporting away in less than a second, except for the CIA agent dude with glasses. The agents were hitting the ground a second or two apart.
  • An unsuspecting Jason might not have that second to grab his knife and stab Azazel before he teleports away
  • Having blunt durability is not the same as surviving a fall from hundreds of feet into the air...
  • In the Frankenstein feat, he's knocked away into a structure, not dropped from the sky. The end result of that feat isn't shown anyways.
  • For the Supergirl feat, he jumped out and used the buildings to make his way down. Where our battle takes place, there aren't any tall places for him to save himself with. He's also not jumping but being dropped straight down, which makes it much harder to correct your trajectory and stay oriented.
  • Where is this glider technology? Is it standard for him?
  • What about the grappling line? What will he grapple onto to when there's nothing tall in the area?
  • Does Killer Croc catch people whose parents he murdered and who he has fought against before? Will Killer Croc even prioritize saving Red Hood when him and the rest of his team come under attack?
  • What structure is Roy going to use his net arrow to save Jason with?

Honestly, Jason can one shot your whole team with his chest taser. They don't have that level of durability.

Dude...

You provided like 2 feats of him using this chest taser, and both are from really close range. Not only that, but can you show that it's even a common and in-character thing for him to use this? Especially with the last feat of him taking out a room of fodder. He's likely to take out his own team at the same time.

Conclusion

  • Nothing of my original arguments and strategy has changed. You do have a great team, but I have the better perks and strategy.
  • Katana is very fast, but based on what we have both presented, I would still put Elektra slightly above her. Elektra is also stronger, more durable, and arguably more skilled than Katana.
  • The bulk of your counter to my strategy with Azazel was knowing that he tends to tele-drop people. However, given that basic knowledge is based on a Wikia page and you won't find that piece of information on any Wikia page of his, your team will not in fact know that it is common for Azazel to tele-drop his opponents.
  • Red Hood will get tele-dropped and will die or be too injured to continue fighting. Whether Azazel dies in the process or before he can tele-drop his next target (Roy) doesn't matter much because your team will be on high-alert and the next two steps of my strategy will immediately take effect anyways. However, I would still argue that Azazel gets the chance to tele-drop both Red Hood and Arsenal before Katana and Killer Croc can adapt to what is happening
  • Mary might not be able to completely destroy Katana's sword, but she can at least combust the hilt, which would make the sword either 1) impossible to wield, or 2) too hot for Katana to hold onto. Jason's gear and Roy's bow can easily be combusted.
  • With your team having fallen to their deaths or having been disarmed, this allows Elektra to swoop in and finish you all off with her exceptional skill, speed, and lethality.
  • If for whatever reason Jason can stop Azazel before he teleports, well then your team is screwed when Mary combusts the 3 C4's that Jason is holding :)
  • The element of stealth you keep bringing up is completely null in our scenario given: your lack of prep, the environment, your spawn point, and the fact that it is broad daylight and my team will be waiting for you.

Your move!

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#15 Posted by geekryan (3170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym: my post is up! sorry for the delay

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#16 Edited by Ashrym (2675 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: np. I will lkkely be a day or two.

edit: won't be able to reply until the weekend

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#17 Posted by geekryan (3170 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by Kevd4wg (10830 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
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#19 Posted by Ashrym (2675 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan:

Post 2

Rebuttals

Katana

Basically, everything you posted for Katana has been replicated by Elektra or could be replicated by her...

So you demonstrated Elektra casually overtaking a car doing 60? Practically vivisecting a master swordsman black lantern? I do not see how catching a knife thrown from behind even comes close to reflecting 5 bullets fired at close range from behind back at the opponent after they had already been fired. Do you have feats to compare to that? Maybe outracing an explosion from within an elevator shaft Katana is also in?

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Out of the elevator shaft and also out of the building. Your opening claimed Elektra's best feats while I provided common casual bullet timing.

This wasn't even a legit fight. It lasted like 3 panels and wasn't conclusive at all. You can't use this to compare Katana to Lady Shiva.

Being short does not mean it's not legit. That's all the time it took for Shiva to determine she wanted to face Katana at full capacity. I posted some combat with Deathstroke as well but he created a distraction and left before that could have been concluded. The problem with your skill argument is it's hard to quantify significant Marvel vs DC. Unless you can actually demonstrate similar speed Elektra will have no chance against Katana's speed, and your opening with Azazel is doomed to fail because he does not come close.

The only thing Katana has over Elektra is a magical sword. However, as I demonstrated in my opener, Elektra has far superior feats of strength and durability/pain tolerance.

What good is strength (debatable as both are peak athletes but regardless) or pain tolerance when Katana just cuts off Elektra's arms or whatever? Katana was cutting the arms off OMAC's. OMAC's > Elektra in durability and strength. However, as you argued Typhoid Mary's durability off of Luke Cage and Jessica Jones I did included Zod throwing Katana into a wall, can show and OMAC doing the same and spiderwebbing the wall with her body, and here is Katana with a point blank baby-nuke that required Geoforce to require medical attention from right beside her. That's heat, shrapnel, and impact.

No Caption Provided

The feats with General Zod are more about Katana's use of skill and technique rather than strength. Very much an outlier too as Katana has never faced an opponent anywhere near Zod's level.

The image was self-evident when Zod asked "how" and Katana said "magic". Are you trying to tell me you have scans of Elektra sprinting by an opponent of Hyperion's and casually blocking with "skill"? I see a couple of things wrong with your argument as you said Elektra could replicate Katana's feats and you are ignoring what is stated in the scan as you inject speculation instead. If you can demonstrate a skill feat like that I will accept that Katana's massive skill allows her to block Kryptonian strikes.

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Sabbac when Sabbac was amped with the power of the 7 deadly sins and Shaggyman. Now it's no longer an outlier. Also...

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Cutting Wonder Woman's sword during Trinity. Waller pegged her as a counter for Wonder Woman.

Losing to Flash for a majority of fights doesn't mean Boomerang should be faster and more efficient at killing fodder.

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That's not the Flash but it still makes the point. Deadshot couldn't hit that target while Boomerang flipped the gun around before said fast guy could stop firing. No matter how you try to spin it, Katana and Harley wading through those soldiers faster than Boomerang could tag one is impressive.

J'onn didn't even react, nor did it seem like he cared. He didn't even say anything, so you can't assume he was unaware where she went. When Elektra did this to Daredevil, he was actually surprised and demonstrated that. His senses are also a lot more developed than J'onn's, minus the obvious things like the super vision.

J'onn was asked point blank and could not identify where she had gone even though she was in the middle of the team. Martians have 9 sense to overcome (check here ) and that is just as impressive as disappearing from Kryptonians.

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Those images show MMH looking at his house from space, watching a moon leave Mars' orbit from Earth, listening to media broadcasts from orbit, and shows up at the mention of his name. I can grab more pics of super hearing and xray vision or sensing the temperature of blood at a crime scene if you want. To be clear, my scan was not showing Katana avoiding his TP. Ivo was blocking the TP.

This is an extremely bold statement that you will need to back up with more feats than the 1 image of Katana slicing Batman from behind him that you presented.

There are also danger sense scans in the mix. I'll add Cat Woman for you (because I have it handy), and if you want I can grab an image of Deadshot and Batman failing to get away from Katana as she chooses to let them go.

No Caption Provided

Let me know if you want me to dig out the reference to Batman and Deadshot failing to avoid Katana through stealth.

Red Hood

The strength and skill feats you presented are impressive, but there are two things you need to provide more context on: his fight against Deathstroke, and his fight against Lady Shiva. I'm willing to bet that there is more context for these two feats.

The context is that the technique Red Hood used on Shiva was stated to be a "short cut" that she had taught him. It's never been stated if the "short cut" referred to the block, counter attack, pressure point, or combo but he defeated her in any case. The context on Deathstroke was also listed as part of the link above. Deathstroke did not have his healing factor and had been in recent combat while Red Hood was stated to be playing a game. Here is some real context in both cases.

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Jason excels at taking advantage of openings and mistakes, and he uses his banter to create those openings and mistakes, much like we see him doing against Shiva, Deathstroke, Batman, and even the Demon's Head if you want another example. Those images also demonstrate that while Jason was holding back (as shown in my opening) Batman was not able to deal with Jason and could not hold back. I also added an example of Jason stabbing and pinning Onyx (a trained assassin) to the wall before she could perceive it, moving back into speed.

His speed feats are okay but not too impressive. Green Arrow was taken completely by surprise from close range, Supergirl being impressed with his speed is just a useless statement, and it is unclear if he is aim-dodging, bullet-timing, or just plain lucky.

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That's the low end speedster I mentioned earlier. Jason blitzed her along with the Iron Rule when he gave into becoming a living weapon. She is clearly a bullet timer at minimum and he switched from guns to H2H in his attack on her.

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He's been capable of matching Artemis' Amazon speed (bullet-timer; she also pointed out he was holding back in that fight) and he's capable of firing pistols so rapidly he's replicated automatic fire completely demolishing a large body almost instantly and we can still see muzzle flashes as he's already firing again at different locations. Bizarro built him a supersonic bike that he has the perceptions and reflexes to drive if you want me to pull a scan of that, or the image of him deflecting a bullet with a shovel while dodging other bullets.

I don't think Elektra has the speed advantage you think she does. That means All-Swords ftw win, except it's not necessary given the taser.

Killer Croc

Here is another example of simply landing on his feat while protecting a child during a great fall. Bats needed to dive into the water. The pic I gave in my first post is from Forever Evil: Arkham War and it does not show the actual landing. We see him next the same night in a room full of villains with no damage. Here is a bit more on speed and use.

almost faster than Batman can see

most commonly used as mobile cover

There are examples of broken glass in his back, Batgirl's batarangs, and Batman with a spear stabbing Croc. Generally he ignores what damage he does take and then heals it.

He would be a threat to Azazel only.

That gets back to the issue with your strategy. Everyone is a threat to Azazel and he was your primary assault.

Arsenal

Not to mention that he is severely disadvantaged without his bow, which Mary can combust or TK away, or Elektra can disarm/break.

He's called "Arsenal", not "Bow-guy". ;-)

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Roy was a member of the Teen Titans, Titans, Justice League, Outsiders, Checkmate, and Outlaws off the top of my head. In that time he's has carried a wide assortment of weapons as an expert marksman and weapons expert. He's capable of using anything as a weapon, similar to Bullseye. Above I show him using explosives, disabling a man with a clipboard, attacking Vandal Savage with a paperclip, his hands are lethal weapons, disarming those fake nurses and throwing the syringes like darts, and demonstrating that even when he had PTSD after getting shot in the heart he was capable of H2H with Nightwing pre52. He is not defenseless without the bow.

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Here he is replicating throwing a weapon into a gun to disable it, but in this case pens and chopsticks. He can disable one officer with a single blow and attack the other before that officer can fire, and he's capable of catching arrows from his bow fired at him point blank. There is plenty for him to work with in this battlefield if he loses his bow, including weapons from Red Hood if needed.

Speaking of getting shot, Roy has something similar to what you gave Elektra credit.

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Roy survived the time before Jade returned to him plus 5 minutes to the hospital with a confirmed collapsed lung and shot to the heart. He recovered to active duty from that and eventually overcame the PTSD. He's tough. As for specialty arrows here are some examples.

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The trick arrows are something I'd be more concerned about, but as I said, without a bow, Roy and his trick arrows are limited. My only question about his gear is how standard all these different types of arrows are for him?

He uses explosives, tasers, and grab / zip lines all the time. He's used nets at least 3 times I can recall but to be fair one was almost instantly burned. He's also used foam retardant a couple of times and various unique arrows frequently. Tech characters are very versatile. That's something we see with Jason and Todd.

Perks

It isn't off though. We both have basic knowledge. All that means is that we both know who our opponents are based on a Wikia page. However, since my team has prep, we get to survey the battlefield, plan a strategy, get into position, etc. You get none of that. When your team spawns, it will be in an unfamiliar area, with no chance to discuss a strategy or get into position. Since we know who you are, what you are capable of, and get to plan accordingly, we hold the advantage when the battle begins. The battle starts on our terms and since we have a strategy and we are in position, we get the first strike unless your team is fast enough to react to us before we can execute our initial move, which isn't the case.

Let me remind you what you did with your prep.

During the 15 minutes of prep, my team will discuss their powers and abilities, discuss their opponents' powers and abilities, survey the environment, prioritize our targets, and come up with a strategy.

You discussed wikia knowledge, came up with a plan, and that plan is in your strategy. Your team is still in it's own spawning point and it takes time to move to mine, which you don't know where my team spawns until they do.

Step 1: As shown in his battle against the CIA agents and like he attempted with Beast, it is very much in character for Azazel to teleport people into the air, which will result in them falling to their deaths. This technically isn't BFR since you aren't leaving the battlefield, you're just going far up and back down with a high enough velocity to cause instant death upon impact on the ground :) Kevd4wg also gave me the okay for this.

Jason & Roy are the most immediate threats due to their ranged attacks. Katana and Killer Croc need to get close in order to be a threat. Therefore, our priority will be Jason > Roy > Katana > Killer Croc.

This brings us back to Azazel coming in first, attacking Jason first, and not having in the reflexes and speed to match Jason. That's assuming Azazel knows where Jason is because I demonstrated Jason avoiding Kryptonian detection in broad daylight and Katana avoiding Martian detection in broad daylight. No one on your team can beat that level of stealth and everyone on my team is a problem for Azazel. The time it takes your team to close is the time required for my guys to stealth up and/or discuss.

You mention that prep as a big advantage but my team has greater numbers, more versatility, range damage, magical advantages, intellect.

You will not initially see my team until we reveal ourselves, since none of you have x-ray vision or the superhuman senses necessary to detect two extremely skilled ninjas/assassins and a teleporter.

I demonstrated Katana sensing attacks already and Soultaker has it's own mystical senses. Red Hood has mystical senses too that are unlikely to come into play here, and his hearing is exceptional but not like Daredevil. The problem I'm seeing is eventually my team comes out on top with stealth because they will detect Daredevil / Iron Fist level sense stealth before your team can detect Supergirl / MMH level stealth, especially with Soultaker to give your team away.

Third, you didn't provide any feats that Red Hood has utilized C4s before. We can assume he knows how to use them, I won't deny that, but since he is still fighting in character, what leads you to believe he will immediately go and plant C4s when the battle starts? That seems like a very unlikely strategy for him, especially since he will be targeted from the start.

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There you go. Plenty of feats for Jason Todd using wireless explosives. That last two are using abruptly in combat after taking cover. I see plenty of cover available. No assuming necessary.

Can you provide proof that this is standard equipment for all 4 of your characters?

You will also need to provide feats that anyone on your team has used ear pieces as remote detonators and explain how you will plan on setting them up without any prep.

I can because coms are often used in Outsiders, Suicide Squad, and Outlaws. I don't think I am going to need to based on the way this battle is shaping up, however.

Your Rebuttals

FOX characters are composite. All the feats from the movies can apply.

All the feats for your characters do apply. The problem is you are trying to attribute Mystique's skill to training from Azazel from 30+ years after he died. If you had Mystique on your team she would have that skill. Azazel does not have Mystique's skill. The same is true for Beast. Strength he exhibited 20 years after Azazel died that he did not have during Azazel's fight does not apply. It would if Beast was on your team for Beast but Azazel does not have Beast's strength.

Killer Croc and Katana have definitely worked together. Arsenal and Red Hood have worked together as well. But what about any other combination of the four?

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Red Hood, Arsenal, and Katana worked together during a story arc in the Outsiders to break out Jefferson Pierce from imprisonment. Red Hood went to Nightwing and offered his help to the team to provide intel. I already gave you an image of Red Hood working with Killer Croc, which included the fact Croc and Roy have been talking a lot since Roy went back to the Titans. That pic was from an Outlaws / Suicide Squad crossover after Rebirth.

You are grasping at straws on the "will not work together" angle. Jason works with other teams and individuals regularly. He can be a jerk at times but that doesn't stop him. He was briefly in the Teen Titans, a Robin, a Challenger, and an Outlaw.

I found at least 2 occasions where Jason Todd and Killer Croc have been at odds:

  1. Batman #357-359 & Detective Comics #524-526: Killer Croc literally killed Jason's parents
  2. Nightwing: Year One: Dick Grayson and Jason Todd fought against Killer Croc, who had Alfred captive.

Both these instances lead me to believe that Jason Todd and Killer Croc are more likely to fight each other than work together...

Croc did not kill Jason's parents. That's been retconned. And I showed you Jason on Croc on a mission together in the modern continuity that would trump old showings. They got along fine.

It is broad daylight. There are places for cover, but not many options for you nearby to completely hide, climb up, etc. Any aspect of stealth that your team may have is severely handicapped in this environment. Elektra will be hiding, waiting to strike, at a vantage point that gives her the best view of the area. As a highly skilled and trained ninja/assassin, this is a common thing for her to do. With earpieces, it allows us to communicate your position the moment you spawn. Mary and Azazel will be hiding out of view. It will take seconds for you to spawn, for Elektra to identify your position, relay the information, and for my team to strike.

Your team has no way of knowing where I spawn. There's also no indication of time spent spawning. If your team can hide, my team can hide. If my team is limited in hiding options, your team is limited in hiding options. This is true because they are on the same battlefield.

Although Azazel has reacted to bullets, your team definitely has the superior speed feats, I will admit. However, you will not know that it is common for Azazel to teleport people into the air, and unless you prove me otherwise, none of your characters have gone up against a rapid teleporter like Azazel. Since Red Hood is the first target, he will be teleported into the air well above cloud-level and dropped before he or anyone on your team can react. This will put your team on high alert and might allow you to counter the next teleport, but you will need to prove they can counter a teleporter like this.

That did not work against Beast and my team is far faster than Beast. Plus net arrows or grappling lines that can break falls, or Croc taking care of it similar to the child in my earlier image.

The sword was clearly getting damaged because it literally screamed "IT BURNNNNS" and asked for release. Mary's pyrokinesis is much larger in AoE, having affected the bodies of people (Wolverine), a school bus, and two of Punisher's guns (a machine gun and a handgun). Perhaps the pyrokinesis won't burn the steel, but what do you have to suggest that the hilt of her katana won't combust? Even if it just burns instead of completely combusting, the heat would most certainly cause Katana to lose her grip. From there, it's very easy for Mary to use her TK to toss the weapon away as I have shown she can do. Even if Katana manages to grab her sword back before that happens, that's long enough of a distraction for Elektra to close in and take her out.

The handle isn't less magical than the rest, but just look back at the baby-nuke the sword survived that I posted above. Also, the voices always want out and expressing pain is not demonstrating damage.

Also, claiming that Katana is faster than Elektra is laughable when Elektra has significantly better bullet-timing feats.

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Here is a repost of a couple images. One is Katana controlling the defection of 5 bullet from an automatic rifle that was shot at here from behind while she was attacking someone else in front of her. She exerted control of these 5 bullets to shoot the guy who fired them at her. I may have missed your comparable example. The other image is Katana obviously tracking bullets on different trajectories instead of the typical arc a lot of people post and she still deflects each of them in one stroke.

Are you claiming that a stab to the eyes or brain won't be enough to drop Killer Croc...? We have basic knowledge, remember that. We know Killer Croc has tough and thick skin. Elektra won't attempt to stab his torso. She'll go for the vulnerable spots, i.e. eyes, throat, brain, etc. The average Okinawan Sai is 18-21 inches long. Because of the length of the hilt, the center part of the blade is less than that, about 14 inches. You're telling me that 14 inches of depth won't do any harm to Killer Croc?

I'll give you that she can take Croc. Right now you seem to think she's taking Croc and Katana while Mary is burning Roy's bow and Azazel is pulling off miracles with his speed compared to Jason's reflexes. All Elektra does in such a case is open herself up to Katana. I think Katana takes Elektra on her own and I am confident she cannot protect herself from Croc while dealing with Katana or protect herself from Katana while dealing with Croc.

Having blunt durability is not the same as surviving a fall from hundreds of feet into the air...

No, that's exactly what falling does. It's hitting a solid object at velocity up to terminal velocity. I also see multi-story structions, soft canopy roofs, and trees as objects to help break falls. As for getting tossed by Frankenstein, Jason was fine and they both continued to steal a ship from SHADE. The glider is not always there but grappling lines are.

Dude...

You provided like 2 feats of him using this chest taser, and both are from really close range. Not only that, but can you show that it's even a common and in-character thing for him to use this? Especially with the last feat of him taking out a room of fodder. He's likely to take out his own team at the same time.

I showed you 3 instances. Batman, Artemis, and that gigantic room full of fodder. I also referenced Boomerang and 2 other guards when I posted Red Hood avoiding 2 point blank guns while sitting in a chair in chains. Jason also used the taser on Penguins guards before shooting Penguin. In the case of Penguin's guards and the room full of fodder, Jason left the leaders up and continued to speak to them. I can get those scans too if you want them. Here is the room again so you can review your "close range".

No Caption Provided

Unless some of those guys are a foot tall, I'm going to have to say there's more range than you think.

It's obvious you don't want to accept my multiple options to Azazel for preventing falling damage the fact he is simply outclassed in speed. My team destroys him by means of reflexes and damage before he can accomplish what you set out to do.

Additionally, it's clear you don't want to accept Jason's chest taser because you don't have a defense for it other than to try and convince people it shouldn't count.

My team simply waits for attack and plans on ambushing attackers when they arrive. They spawn near a lot of equipment just off to the left when facing towards your team. They have the skill set to do just that. Jason still has the capability to one-shot your team with tech, especially from ambush.

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#20 Edited by geekryan (3170 posts) - - Show Bio

Post #3

Katana

So you demonstrated Elektra casually overtaking a car doing 60?

Where exactly does it show Katana actually overtaking the car going 60...? All it shows is her about to sit in the passenger seat. You are making a plain assumption that Katana actually ran faster than 60mph to catch up to the car, which is absolutely ridiculous and would be an extreme outlier for her speed.

Here is a cheetah going from 0-60 mph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJhTd-r4QhM

Are you seriously claiming that Katana ran that fast? Faster than a cheetah, literally the fastest land animal in the world? To put this into even more perspective, the top speed of Usain Bolt, the fastest man alive, is 27.8 mph. So Katana, considered to be peak human, can run more than twice as fast as him?

The more likely scenario is that Katana landed in the car from above, and the driver telling her that he is going 60 mph is a warning for her to be careful.

Practically vivisecting a master swordsman black lantern?

How is this impressive? First of all, Katana took him by surprise while he was mid-sentence and clearly NOT on guard, so this wasn't a fair fight by any means. Second of all, he isn't an actual Black Lantern, he was reanimated by one as a corpse. He is essentially a zombie, and you can clearly tell that by his appearance. This clearly shows how little you know about your own character, or you're simply lying to make her feat seem more impressive. Third of all, this is even LESS impressive than if she did this to a regular human because a reanimated corpse has far inferior durability than a regular human. You can even tell from the black blood and the pieces of him on the floor that he is rotting.

I do not see how catching a knife thrown from behind even comes close to reflecting 5 bullets fired at close range from behind back at the opponent after they had already been fired. Do you have feats to compare to that?

The feat you are referring to is impressive, but Elektra tends to dodge bullets rather than deflect them.

I provided you with TWO examples of Elektra dodging sniper rounds. This is far more impressive than dodging most other types of gunfire. To back this up, the speed of sound is about 340 m/s. The speed of a bullet from a sniper rifle is anywhere from 800 to 1000 m/s, so almost 3 times faster than the speed of sound. Has Katana done this?

Maybe outracing an explosion from within an elevator shaft Katana is also in?

Out of the elevator shaft and also out of the building.

The initial explosion wasn't that massive... You're implying the explosion was what caused the entire building to go up in flames and explode? The building was already very much on fire before the explosion:

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If that explosion was what caused the building to explode, then why was Katana looking down the elevator shaft right after the explosion? If she was really "outracing" the explosion, she would have went straight for the window rather than stop and look down the elevator shaft. The destruction of the building was a gradual process due to the fire, not the explosion. There was no big, final explosion that destroyed the building, and Katana certainly did not outrace any actual explosion given all of this. It is much more likely that she looked down the elevator shaft after the explosion she caused and then jumped out of the burning building along with the other Birds of Prey.

Your opening claimed Elektra's best feats while I provided common casual bullet timing.

Both Elektra and Katana are casual bullet-timers, neither of us can deny that. However, there are many differences between their feats.

Elektra regularly dodges bullets, including from multiple gunmen surrounding her. She can deflect bullets from close range with her sais, which is more impressive than with a katana given the size difference of the weapons. Katanas are both wider and longer than even two sais combined, so it is more impressive to deflect bullets with sais than with a katana in that respect.

She has shown multiple times to be able to catch or cut arrows while in flight, but she can slice a bullet in half as well. She has even deflected bullets with a pipe from point blank range, which shows she is skilled enough to deflect bullets with unconventional objects.

So whereas Katana is primarily shown to only deflect bullets with her sword, Elektra can dodge bullets while surrounded by multiple gunmen, she can dodge sniper rounds, she can deflect bullets with her smaller weapons, and she can deflect bullets from point blank range with unconventional objects like a pipe.

Hell, she's too fast for Wolverine, who is also a regular bullet-timer by the way. She can also dodge multiple projectiles thrown by Bullseye. For reference, Bullseye's accuracy is unparalleled being the world's greatest assassin, and he has tagged people like Daredevil, Deadpool, Spider-Man, and more. So being able to dodge projectiles from Bullseye is much more impressive than dodging anything from fodder.

Katana's speed and agility are great, I won't deny that; but based on feats, Elektra's speed and agility are superior to hers.

Being short does not mean it's not legit. That's all the time it took for Shiva to determine she wanted to face Katana at full capacity. I posted some combat with Deathstroke as well but he created a distraction and left before that could have been concluded.

The fights with Lady Shiva and Deathstroke that you presented were not even actual fights though. Both lasted 3 panels and were not conclusive at all because neither resulted in a win/loss for the combatants. Lady Shiva ended the fight herself and left, and Deathstroke just disappeared without actually fighting back at all. Katana is nowhere near the level of Lady Shiva and Deathstroke in skill, and you claiming that is absurd.

The problem with your skill argument is it's hard to quantify significant Marvel vs DC. Unless you can actually demonstrate similar speed Elektra will have no chance against Katana's speed, and your opening with Azazel is doomed to fail because he does not come close.

Soooo because our characters are from two different universes, my arguments on skill are rendered null...? It goes both ways. I find it laughable that you still believe Katana is so superior to Elektra in speed when the feats prove otherwise.

What good is strength (debatable as both are peak athletes but regardless) or pain tolerance when Katana just cuts off Elektra's arms or whatever? Katana was cutting the arms off OMAC's. OMAC's > Elektra in durability and strength. However, as you argued Typhoid Mary's durability off of Luke Cage and Jessica Jones I did included Zod throwing Katana into a wall, can show and OMAC doing the same and spiderwebbing the wall with her body,

What...? Strength, durability and pain tolerance are essential in any form of CCQ. It isn't all about speed and skill, which Elektra already outclasses Katana in based on feats.

I'm not too familiar with OMAC, but with the limited research I just did on him, I see that his superhuman durability is based on blunt force and energy, with nothing on slashing durability to go on. Therefore, Katana being able to slice his arm off with a magical sword is not impressive or noteworthy at all. And if we're going to play that game, then Elektra being able to stab both Red Hulk and Red She Hulk and a Ghost Rider Super Skrull >>> Katana being able to slice off OMAC's arm.

and here is Katana with a point blank baby-nuke that required Geoforce to require medical attention from right beside her. That's heat, shrapnel, and impact.

Katana is very much down for the count in that scan... She survived, but she clearly is severely injured, practically KO'd, and probably borderline dying. I don't see how this really helps your case. Geo-Force on the other hand is still very injured but in better shape than her, seeing as he can lift himself up a bit and call out to Katana.

The image was self-evident when Zod asked "how" and Katana said "magic". Are you trying to tell me you have scans of Elektra sprinting by an opponent of Hyperion's and casually blocking with "skill"? I see a couple of things wrong with your argument as you said Elektra could replicate Katana's feats and you are ignoring what is stated in the scan as you inject speculation instead. If you can demonstrate a skill feat like that I will accept that Katana's massive skill allows her to block Kryptonian strikes.

So Katana has magic now...? The only thing magical about her is her sword, and Katana replying with "Magic" while smiling was clearly a sarcastic comment and not to be taken literally. This showing is purely based off of her magical sword and having superior skill to Zod, nothing more. If you're suggesting that Katana = General Zod then oh boy...

I have already provided you with multiple showings of Elektra's skill against opponents like Wolverine, Bullseye, Taskmaster, Iron Fist, etc. She has stalemated Daredevil multiple times too. Most of these guys are wayyyy above Katana in terms of skill. Unless you're claiming otherwise, in which case, oh boy...

Sabbac when Sabbac was amped with the power of the 7 deadly sins and Shaggyman. Now it's no longer an outlier.

And this is impressive why...? You provided zero context for Sabbac, the power of the 7 Deadly Sins, or Shaggyman. Again, her magical sword being able to slash magical beings with little to no piercing/slashing durability is not impressive.

Cutting Wonder Woman's sword during Trinity. Waller pegged her as a counter for Wonder Woman.

Are you.....Did you just....Katana = Wonder Woman??? Oh boy...

That's not the Flash but it still makes the point. Deadshot couldn't hit that target while Boomerang flipped the gun around before said fast guy could stop firing. No matter how you try to spin it, Katana and Harley wading through those soldiers faster than Boomerang could tag one is impressive.

Boomerang being able to tag the gun of a distracted opponent is not very impressive. Your scaling is getting off the charts here.

J'onn was asked point blank and could not identify where she had gone even though she was in the middle of the team. Martians have 9 sense to overcome (check here ) and that is just as impressive as disappearing from Kryptonians.

Okay, woah. Not only is this an extreme outlier for Katana's stealth and a counter-feat for J'onn, but J'onn was specifically asked to get a lock on Katana and find out where she is and what she is doing. This was in reference to his telepathy, NOT his senses, which is further demonstrated by the fact that J'onn then commented on his telepathy being blocked. If he was asked to sense her in any way, including his enhanced senses, why would he comment on his telepathy alone? If J'onn's senses are as good as you hype them up to be, he should be able to locate a peak human like Katana. Katana has no superhuman abilities that result in her having super stealth powers. This would also not translate to our particular scenario, which is a combat situation where you spawn in an unknown, open area that my team has already scoped out and are in position for.

There are also danger sense scans in the mix. I'll add Cat Woman for you (because I have it handy), and if you want I can grab an image of Deadshot and Batman failing to get away from Katana as she chooses to let them go.

So now Katana's stealth > Catwoman's stealth...? Oh boy...

There is a lack of context in this scan. We don't know how or if Katana snuck up on Catwoman, if Katana out-skilled her, etc.

Let me know if you want me to dig out the reference to Batman and Deadshot failing to avoid Katana through stealth.

I would love to this outlier and see you argue Katana's stealth > Batman's stealth, but as this will be your final post, you cannot post more scans & feats.

You are severely wanking Katana, a street-leveler, and comparing her to characters WAY beyond her level.

I'd like to end this section by saying that most of Katana's feats are done with her katana, the only weapon she uses and the only one she a master of. Elektra, on the other hand, is a master of several weapons, including sais, katanas, knives, shuriken, staffs, etc. Elektra is also a master of several forms of martial arts. So who do you think is more skilled: the woman who has mastered only one weapon, or the woman who has mastered several weapons and several martial arts?

Red Hood

The context is that the technique Red Hood used on Shiva was stated to be a "short cut" that she had taught him. It's never been stated if the "short cut" referred to the block, counter attack, pressure point, or combo but he defeated her in any case.

IIRC, Lady Shiva beat Jason pretty quickly and easily in their first fight. In this fight, Jason even acknowledged that he couldn't beat her in hand-to-hand combat, so he uses a shortcut she taught him (a pressure point) to take her out. Also, this is New-52 Shiva, who is far less impressive than Pre-52 Shiva.

The context on Deathstroke was also listed as part of the link above. Deathstroke did not have his healing factor and had been in recent combat while Red Hood was stated to be playing a game. Here is some real context in both cases.

Yes, but there is still a lot of important, missing information from this. Did Jason take Slade by surprise or was it a fair and even fight? Was Slade fighting to the fullest of his capabilities? Deathstroke not having his healing factor is a significant handicap to him... And just because Red Hood wasn't intending to kill him doesn't mean he was playing games and not going full-out.

Jason excels at taking advantage of openings and mistakes, and he uses his banter to create those openings and mistakes, much like we see him doing against Shiva, Deathstroke, Batman, and even the Demon's Head if you want another example. Those images also demonstrate that while Jason was holding back (as shown in my opening) Batman was not able to deal with Jason and could not hold back.

There are several things wrong with this. First, Jason took Batman by surprise. Second, Batman was not fighting back much. Third, Batman only stated he couldn't hold back at the END of the fight.

I also added an example of Jason stabbing and pinning Onyx (a trained assassin) to the wall before she could perceive it, moving back into speed.

What feats does Onyx have as a trained assassin to make this impressive?

That's the low end speedster I mentioned earlier. Jason blitzed her along with the Iron Rule when he gave into becoming a living weapon. She is clearly a bullet timer at minimum and he switched from guns to H2H in his attack on her.

I see we are using the term "speedster" very loosely here....She is fast, but hardly a speedster. In the scan where he "blitzed" her, she was clearly not even moving and just stood there.

He's been capable of matching Artemis' Amazon speed (bullet-timer; she also pointed out he was holding back in that fight)

Matching? Where? All I see is him getting owned pretty easily. And at no point does she say he was holding back.

and he's capable of firing pistols so rapidly he's replicated automatic fire completely demolishing a large body almost instantly and we can still see muzzle flashes as he's already firing again at different locations.

Okay...?

I don't think Elektra has the speed advantage you think she does. That means All-Swords ftw win, except it's not necessary given the taser.

Based on her bullet-timing feats and her showings against very skilled and fast opponents (i.e. Wolverine, Taskmaster, Iron Fist, etc.) I'm quite confident she has the speed advantage necessary to win. Jason holds the advantage in gear, and a slight advantage in strength/durability, but Elektra is far superior in skill, and decently superior in speed.

Killer Croc

Here is another example of simply landing on his feat while protecting a child during a great fall. Bats needed to dive into the water.

The height of the fall is not clear, and I doubt it was several hundred feet in the air. Not only that, but he clearly jumped down, rather than being teleported several hundred feet into the sky and dropped down. There is a big difference. Jumping down will mostly maintain your orientation and keep you upright so that you land on your feet due to the momentum and trajectory of the jump. Being dropped from a great height, however, will make it very difficult for someone to maintain their orientation to stay upright and land feet-first.

The pic I gave in my first post is from Forever Evil: Arkham War and it does not show the actual landing. We see him next the same night in a room full of villains with no damage. Here is a bit more on speed and use.

Can you confirm the amount of time between him landing and him appearing in the room with no damage? Because unless you can, you can't assume there was some time in between where he was not KO'd or injured and then recovered after an hour or a few hours.

almost faster than Batman can see

You'll need to do better than 1 example of Killer Croc being too fast for Batman from point-blank range to justify his speed as being anywhere near my team's...

That gets back to the issue with your strategy. Everyone is a threat to Azazel and he was your primary assault.

He was my first assault to take everyone by surprise; this doesn't mean he is my best assault. Even if he only manages to tele-drop just Red Hood, and it is unlikely he will only get to tele-drop just him, then I take out your 2-pointer with my 1-pointer and cause a momentary distraction for your team, which leads to the next 2 steps of my strategy.

Arsenal

Roy was a member of the Teen Titans, Titans, Justice League, Outsiders, Checkmate, and Outlaws off the top of my head. In that time he's has carried a wide assortment of weapons as an expert marksman and weapons expert. He's capable of using anything as a weapon, similar to Bullseye. Above I show him using explosives, disabling a man with a clipboard, attacking Vandal Savage with a paperclip, his hands are lethal weapons, disarming those fake nurses and throwing the syringes like darts, and demonstrating that even when he had PTSD after getting shot in the heart he was capable of H2H with Nightwing pre52. He is not defenseless without the bow.

Here he is replicating throwing a weapon into a gun to disable it, but in this case pens and chopsticks. He can disable one officer with a single blow and attack the other before that officer can fire, and he's capable of catching arrows from his bow fired at him point blank. There is plenty for him to work with in this battlefield if he loses his bow, including weapons from Red Hood if needed.

That's great and all, but only his bow and arrows are considered standard equipment... So yeah, without his bow, he is quite useless in this match. Based on our image of the battlefield, there isn't much he can use as a weapon anyways. No clipboards, paperclips, syringes, pens, chopsticks, etc. His best chance are scavenging the weapons from Red Hood's dead corpse :) But by then, it will be too late for him.

Speaking of getting shot, Roy has something similar to what you gave Elektra credit.

Roy survived the time before Jade returned to him plus 5 minutes to the hospital with a confirmed collapsed lung and shot to the heart. He recovered to active duty from that and eventually overcame the PTSD. He's tough. As for specialty arrows here are some examples.

While it is impressive that he survived 5 gunshots, including to the heart/lung, he was KO'd. Elektra, after getting stabbed straight through the chest and at least one major organ given the location of the stab, managed to walk her way several blocks before going down. Much more impressive.

He uses explosives, tasers, and grab / zip lines all the time. He's used nets at least 3 times I can recall but to be fair one was almost instantly burned. He's also used foam retardant a couple of times and various unique arrows frequently. Tech characters are very versatile. That's something we see with Jason and Todd.

Since you provided a few feats, I'll agree that his zip lines and net arrows are standard for him. However, you didn't really provide any feats to suggest that his explosive arrows, foam retardants, and other unique arrows are considered standard equipment for him.

My conclusion remains that without his bow, he is quite useless against characters like Elektra and Typhoid Mary.

Perks

You discussed wikia knowledge, came up with a plan, and that plan is in your strategy. Your team is still in it's own spawning point and it takes time to move to mine, which you don't know where my team spawns until they do.

@kevd4wg can correct me if I am wrong, but because I have prep on the battlefield, I start where I want to start. Since you do not have prep, you begin at your designated spawn point.

Assuming I can start where I want due to my prep, I already explained how Elektra will start off hidden at a high vantage point that provides her with the best view of the area. This will enable her to locate your team before you even see anyone on my team, which she can then relay to her teammates via earpieces.

Assuming I have to start at my spawn point, it alters my strategy a bit but not by much. Since my team had the chance to survey the area, we are much more familiar with it than your team will be. This, coupled with Elektra's far superior stealth, will enable her to locate your team before you can locate anyone of my team, and from there, the rest of my strategy stays the same. Mary and Azazel will still stay hidden while Elektra scouts out your team. Even if your team detects Elektra as she detects you, your position is still compromised, which leads to Azazel beginning the assault while your team's focus is being held by Elektra.

This brings us back to Azazel coming in first, attacking Jason first, and not having in the reflexes and speed to match Jason. That's assuming Azazel knows where Jason is because I demonstrated Jason avoiding Kryptonian detection in broad daylight and Katana avoiding Martian detection in broad daylight. No one on your team can beat that level of stealth and everyone on my team is a problem for Azazel. The time it takes your team to close is the time required for my guys to stealth up and/or discuss.

You never provided me with any feats showing Jason going up against a rapid teleporter like Azazel. The most you showed is him going up against an opponent with barely-superhuman speed. Not the same. Jason is definitely faster than Azazel, I'm not denying that. But he still isn't fast enough to react to a teleporter appearing from behind him, teleporting him hundreds of feet into the air, and dropping him. Jason would have to strike Azazel (who is behind him) in less than the 1 second it would take for Azazel to teleport him. Even in the air, it is less than a second before Azazel teleports away to his next target. You provided nothing to prove that Jason could react to something like that.

If your plan is to stop and discuss once the battle begins, then you are even more doomed than I initially believed.

You mention that prep as a big advantage but my team has greater numbers, more versatility, range damage, magical advantages, intellect.

You have 1 extra person...

More versatile than a deadly assassin with melee and ranged options, a ninja with pyrokinesis and telekinesis, and a teleporter...?

Both Mary and Elektra can attack from range, just like how Arsenal and Red Hood can attack from range as well. Katana and Killer Croc NEED to be in melee range in order to be of any use.

Magical advantage...? Katana has a magical sword and Red Hood can conjure up swords. Not a big deal nor a noteworthy advantage.

I will admit that your team holds the advantage in intelligence, but the difference is marginal and it is one of the least important factors in our fight.

I demonstrated Katana sensing attacks already and Soultaker has it's own mystical senses.

No. You provided one or two very limited examples of Katana and/or her sword being able to sense danger. Danger sense isn't an ability that is commonly associated with Katana and it is by no means an important factor in our fight.

Red Hood has mystical senses too that are unlikely to come into play here, and his hearing is exceptional but not like Daredevil.

Okay great?

The problem I'm seeing is eventually my team comes out on top with stealth because they will detect Daredevil / Iron Fist level sense stealth before your team can detect Supergirl / MMH level stealth, especially with Soultaker to give your team away.

Oh boy....this wanking & scaling is out of hand.

There you go. Plenty of feats for Jason Todd using wireless explosives. That last two are using abruptly in combat after taking cover. I see plenty of cover available. No assuming necessary.

None of these are actual combat scenarios though. And it takes time to set up explosives, get away, and detonate them. Time that Jason will not have in this fight, in an environment he is completely unfamiliar with as opposed to my team. It seems highly unlikely that as Jason spawns, his first instinct will be to set up explosives.

I can because coms are often used in Outsiders, Suicide Squad, and Outlaws. I don't think I am going to need to based on the way this battle is shaping up, however.

*Says coms are often used*

*Doesn't provide proof*

*Decides his team won't need them anyways*

My Rebuttals

All the feats for your characters do apply. The problem is you are trying to attribute Mystique's skill to training from Azazel from 30+ years after he died. If you had Mystique on your team she would have that skill. Azazel does not have Mystique's skill. The same is true for Beast. Strength he exhibited 20 years after Azazel died that he did not have during Azazel's fight does not apply. It would if Beast was on your team for Beast but Azazel does not have Beast's strength.

30+ years...? It was about a decade. First Class took place in 1962 and DofP took place in 1973. Azazel died sometime within that time frame. Not sure where you got 30+ years from.

But anyways, it is called "composite" for a reason. ALL FOX characters are considered composite, therefore, all of their feats apply.

Red Hood, Arsenal, and Katana worked together during a story arc in the Outsiders to break out Jefferson Pierce from imprisonment. Red Hood went to Nightwing and offered his help to the team to provide intel. I already gave you an image of Red Hood working with Killer Croc, which included the fact Croc and Roy have been talking a lot since Roy went back to the Titans. That pic was from an Outlaws / Suicide Squad crossover after Rebirth.

You are grasping at straws on the "will not work together" angle. Jason works with other teams and individuals regularly. He can be a jerk at times but that doesn't stop him. He was briefly in the Teen Titans, a Robin, a Challenger, and an Outlaw.

Given what you have presented and the research I have done, I will agree that they would work together. However, this by no means they will have anything close to good teamwork, since all 4 of them have never worked together.

Your team has no way of knowing where I spawn. There's also no indication of time spent spawning. If your team can hide, my team can hide. If my team is limited in hiding options, your team is limited in hiding options. This is true because they are on the same battlefield.

I addressed this already. If my team is allowed to start anywhere on the battlefield because of prep, we hold a significant advantage over your team. If my team has their prep on the battlefield and then start at the spawn point, we still have the advantage albeit a smaller one. A huge part of your "strategy" involves going into hiding. The main difference is that my team will have had time to scope out the entire area, whereas your team will be spawning very much out in the open, in broad daylight, and in an area completely new to them. This provides my team with the field advantage, and we can better assess the hiding spots.

You also contradict yourself. First you claim that your team will immediately find hiding spots, but you also claimed they will first take time to discuss with each other and Red Hood will plant the C4s. You can't exactly do both at the same time.

That did not work against Beast and my team is far faster than Beast. Plus net arrows or grappling lines that can break falls, or Croc taking care of it similar to the child in my earlier image.

Beast was there when Azazel attacked the CIA agents, and he saw his technique in tele-dropping them from the sky. He even saw Azazel fight on the ground against the remaining CIA agents. Your team, with their limited knowledge based on a Wikia page, will not know any of his specific fighting techniques. Beast knew of Azazel and his techniques, which was how he knew to counter him by digging his claws into Azazel. Your team does not know the specifics of Azazel's powers and will not know to counter him the same way.

Again, how do you expect net arrows and grappling lines to work when 1) There are no high structures for the lines/ropes to attach them to, 2) Your team will be taken by surprise, and 3) Mary and Elektra will immediately assault your team at the first teleport?

The handle isn't less magical than the rest, but just look back at the baby-nuke the sword survived that I posted above. Also, the voices always want out and expressing pain is not demonstrating damage.

There is no indication that the hilt of the sword is as magical and durable as the metal the blade is made from.

Based on the scan, you can't even see the sword on or near Katana when the explosion goes off. All we see is the sword laying near her as she is KO'd.

Are you really claiming that the souls of the sword screaming "IT BURNNNNS. RELEASE USSSSS" and Katana even stating that the souls are screaming has nothing to do with the fact that Zod is burning the blade with his heat vision...? Pain is an indication that damage is being done. That is how the physiology of pain works. For example, that's why putting your hand on a stove hurts and your reflex is to draw it away: because it is causing damage. Why else would the souls be screaming "IT BURNNNNS"? Because they enjoy the pain of being burnt and need to scream it out loud?

Here is a repost of a couple images. One is Katana controlling the defection of 5 bullet from an automatic rifle that was shot at here from behind while she was attacking someone else in front of her. She exerted control of these 5 bullets to shoot the guy who fired them at her. I may have missed your comparable example. The other image is Katana obviously tracking bullets on different trajectories instead of the typical arc a lot of people post and she still deflects each of them in one stroke.

But these are still just bullet-deflecting feats...Elektra not only has more bullet timing/dodging/deflecting feats, but they are far superior, such as doing it with sniper rounds or deflecting a point blank bullet with a pipe from the ground or deflecting bullets with her sais while in the air. Whereas Elektra is more consistent with her speed and bullet-related feats, Katana is far less consistent and has lots of outliers.

I'll give you that she can take Croc. Right now you seem to think she's taking Croc and Katana while Mary is burning Roy's bow and Azazel is pulling off miracles with his speed compared to Jason's reflexes. All Elektra does in such a case is open herself up to Katana. I think Katana takes Elektra on her own and I am confident she cannot protect herself from Croc while dealing with Katana or protect herself from Katana while dealing with Croc.

Elektra can most definitely take an unarmed Katana at the same time as Killer Croc. Remember, even if Mary's pyrokinesis doesn't combust Katana's blade, the hilt is still vulnerable and at the very least, the burn on the hilt will cause Katana to drop her blade in pain. From there, Mary can TK the sword away and Elektra can close in while she is unarmed. Hell, Mary can TK the sword even while Katana is holding it. With the basic knowledge we have on Katana, she will be deemed a threat, so it isn't unlikely that Mary would try to TK her sword right off the bat. If the sword won't burn, Mary can also combust Katana's armour, which Kevd4wg said was allowed:

No Caption Provided

This provides Mary with additional options to use her pyrokinesis on. If Katana's sword doesn't combust, her armour certainly will. The same goes for Red Hood and Arsenal's costumes. Killer Croc is the only one on your team who will be immune to this since he has no armour/costume.

No, that's exactly what falling does. It's hitting a solid object at velocity up to terminal velocity. I also see multi-story structions, soft canopy roofs, and trees as objects to help break falls. As for getting tossed by Frankenstein, Jason was fine and they both continued to steal a ship from SHADE. The glider is not always there but grappling lines are.

It isn't though. You can't compare having strong blunt force durability to being able to survive falls of great heights. The physics are completely different. More times than not, someone getting hit by a blunt force travels horizontally, sometimes with a slight arc in the trajectory. Someone falling from a significant height is falling straight down, vertically.

To put the fatality of falls into perspective: in most cases, a fall of 30 feet or more will kill a regular human upon landing on a solid surface. Azazel was dropping them from above cloud-level. The lowest level clouds are roughly 6500 feet up from ground level, which is over 200 times the distance needed to kill a regular human. You have provided no feats of any of your characters getting up and continuing to fight, let alone survive, after a fall from that height. Based on what you have presented and all of Red Hood's feats, this fall will certainly kill him.

You'll notice in the video I had posted of Azazel's feats that all the bodies he tele-dropped landed flat on their stomachs or backs, even though they were dropped feet-first. Landing feet first might allow Killer Croc to survive, but being dropped from such a height rather than him jumping of his own will will make it extremely difficult for him to correct his orientation mid-fall.

I'm not sure what image you are looking at, but the majority of the area of our battlefield is solid ground. There are very, very few trees, barely any "soft canopy roofs", and certainly no multi-story structures. Again, it is also much easier to use a grappling line while falling feet first from a jump than it would be from being dropped from the sky.

I showed you 3 instances. Batman, Artemis, and that gigantic room full of fodder. I also referenced Boomerang and 2 other guards when I posted Red Hood avoiding 2 point blank guns while sitting in a chair in chains. Jason also used the taser on Penguins guards before shooting Penguin. In the case of Penguin's guards and the room full of fodder, Jason left the leaders up and continued to speak to them. I can get those scans too if you want them. Here is the room again so you can review your "close range".

There are several things wrong with Red Hood and his taser:

  1. With Batman and Artemis, he was right on them when he used it. That is close range.
  2. It is likely he only used it on Artemis because he couldn't take her down by any other means
  3. The AoE of his taser can be large, as evidenced in your scan, but he used it on fodder while surrounded by them
  4. You provided no feats of him using his AoE taser against 3 actual opponents that are not fodder
  5. If he decided to use his large AoE taser, your entire team would be compromised as well
  6. You should have provided more scans in your first two posts, because now it is your last post and would be unfair if you brought in new scans that I could not get a chance to address.

It's obvious you don't want to accept my multiple options to Azazel for preventing falling damage the fact he is simply outclassed in speed. My team destroys him by means of reflexes and damage before he can accomplish what you set out to do.

Your "multiple options" are his grappling lines and someone else on his team having to save him. I have already explained why none of your options are plausible or likely to happen, and Red Hood simply does not have the feats to prove how he could survive a fall of that height. Same goes for Katana and Arsenal. The only person who MIGHT survive is Killer Croc, but even then, I am certain he will be injured.

As for your speed argument, it is useless. Your team won't anticipate Azazel teleporting in and out within a second to tele-drop Red Hood. No one except someone with superhuman speed (i.e. a speedster) could react fast enough to react within the one second it would take to for Azazel to tele-drop them. The knowledge perk is too basic to know this is a common strategy for Azazel. There is literally nothing stopping Azazel from teleporting behind Red Hood, touching him, and teleporting him away.

Additionally, it's clear you don't want to accept Jason's chest taser because you don't have a defense for it other than to try and convince people it shouldn't count.

Not only is his chest taser clearly not a standard, go-to move of his, but I provided several counters to it already.

My team simply waits for attack and plans on ambushing attackers when they arrive. They spawn near a lot of equipment just off to the left when facing towards your team. They have the skill set to do just that. Jason still has the capability to one-shot your team with tech, especially from ambush.

It is apparent you have no concrete strategy because you keep saying different things. You said your team will discuss things first, you said your team will immediately go into hiding, and you said Jason will go plant the C4s. You can't do all 3. There is also no way you will be ambushing a teleporter and two highly-trained and skilled ninjas/assassins.

Yeaaa I don't really see someone like Killer Croc being able to hide well behind a tractor...I'm also not sold that anyone on your team barring Katana and MAYBE Red Hood would be good enough to hide from my team.

Jason one-shooting my team is improbable and unlikely given the points I addressed before.

Since you brought up Elektra's supposed lack of skill and inferior stealth, I'll reiterate what she has done:

Elektra's Stealth

  • Disappears from view from Iron Fist and appears behind him and lands a kick on him before he can react (link)
  • Disappears from view from Daredevil and his enhanced senses/radar can't pick up on her (link)
  • Disappears from view from Stick (link), who is known for this trick and has trained Daredevil and Elektra. Stick is a master of stealth/detection who has been able to pick up on Daredevil many times and even Sentry admits Stick is one of the few people who can hide from him.
  • Disappears from both Red Hulk and Ghost Rider (link)

Here are a few new ones for you:

  • Disappears from Spider-Man 2099 (link)
  • Appears and disappears in a room with Nick Fury and a few SHIELD agents (link)
  • Even as of 12 years old, she could move across snow without leaving any footprints (link)
  • "Broke into a SHIELD base like it was the local Wendy's" (link). SHIELD bases tend to be heavily secure, with lots of agents, guards, and cameras.
  • Jumps from a massive height and lands with nothing but a whisper (link)
  • Jumps and sneaks around a terrorist camp without anyone detecting her (link)

Elektra's Skill

Elektra has matched or bested highly-skilled opponents such as Iron Fist, Daredevil, Bullseye, Lady Bullseye, Taskmaster, Wolverine, Silver Samurai, The Punisher, and various super villains. She has literally dozens of fights against named opponents (including the ones I already mentioned), most of which are far above Katana, Killer Croc, Red Hood, and Arsenal in both stats and skill.

Elektra has a much more extensive mastery over various forms of martial arts and weapon styles. She also uses pressure points and nerve strikes often enough, so these will be very problematic for anyone on your team to deal with.

I already posted some of these fights in my previous posts, so I won't bother reposting them. But everything I have shown so far demonstrates that Elektra has superior skill than Katana and the rest of your team.

I'd like to remind you that Typhoid Mary has also deflected bullets with her sword, and she is also a master swordswoman and martial artist. All that, plus her enhanced strength and durability, plus her powers, will make her a threat to any individual on your team.

Conclusion

  • You ignored a HUGE amount of my counters simply because you have no way to refute them, whereas I addressed every single one of your arguments
  • You heavily-relied on wanking Katana and your other team members and scaling them off of far superior characters in order to justify them as comparable to my team
  • You don't really have any concrete strategy or plan; in fact, you provided multiple plans that can't all be done at the same time
  • You heavily-relied on your team's "superior" stealth without actually proving that your stealth is far superior
  • You failed to prove that anyone except Killer Croc would survive a fall from a great height
  • You also failed to prove how anyone could successfully prevent/break their fall given our battlefield
  • You have no answer for Elektra; individually, every person on your team is outclassed by her
  • You have no true answer for Azazel tele-dropping your team; your only counter is Red Hood's speed, which is not enough to stop Azazel
  • You have no answer to Mary combusting your gear and/or armour or TK'ing your weapons away, all of which severely handicap the usefulness of Arsenal, Red Hood, and Katana
  • My team can make much better use of our perks, allowing us to survey the battlefield, talk & strategize, and put our plan into action, while maintaining communication throughout the fight
  • You may have one extra member on your team, but quality > quantity
  • Even IF Azazel only manages to tele-drop Red Hood, that's still enough of a hit to your team for Elektra and Typhoid Mary to sweep the rest

Your turn for the final post! Regardless of the outcome, this was a very fun match and I thoroughly enjoyed debating against you. Best of luck in the voting!

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#21 Posted by geekryan (3170 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by Ashrym (2675 posts) - - Show Bio

Post 3

What I see is that when you do not have better feats to present you use buzzwords like "outlier" and "wank", or you try to invent your own context. The issue with those buzzwords is that they really are nothing more than words if you do not provide an argument that backs those words up. So moving forward, here are my responses.

Katana

Where exactly does it show Katana actually overtaking the car going 60...? All it shows is her about to sit in the passenger seat. You are making a plain assumption that Katana actually ran faster than 60mph to catch up to the car, which is absolutely ridiculous and would be an extreme outlier for her speed.

I am not making any assumptions. I read the story. The only assumptions being made here are by you. For example, the image does not state 60 mph and neither did I. It states "60" and I followed suit. They are in Japan in that image so the writer may or may not have meant 60 mph but it's also possible it's 60 kmph. It's also very assumptive that a peak comic book character is not faster than Usain Bolt. Usain is the fastest until someone beats him, lives in a completely different universe, and comics often demonstrate "normal" people performing what is thought to be beyond humanly possible. Here is me backing up my context for you instead of using the context you fabricated (aka your headcanon if we want to apply buzzwords).

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

She had been following him around, he left before she did, she appeared in his rearview mirror in a blink, and then her speed lines match the surrounding speed lines of the car as she leaps in. She caught the car. I also fail to see how you can possibly call this an outlier after I posted images of Katana moving to intercept a point blank arrow, moving to intercept a point blank bullet, moving to intercept Zod, and sprinting past other people like they were nothing to get between them and their weapons. She is consistently fast and there is no doubt about it. I am more inclined to believe it was 60 kmph in Japan but yes, definitely much faster than Usain Bolt.

What I would point out is I had presented the scans and now I have backed up what I was saying. Why didn't you give scans of Elektra's similar feats if she is supposed to be faster than Katana?

How is this impressive? First of all, Katana took him by surprise while he was mid-sentence and clearly NOT on guard, so this wasn't a fair fight by any means. Second of all, he isn't an actual Black Lantern, he was reanimated by one as a corpse. He is essentially a zombie, and you can clearly tell that by his appearance. This clearly shows how little you know about your own character, or you're simply lying to make her feat seem more impressive. Third of all, this is even LESS impressive than if she did this to a regular human because a reanimated corpse has far inferior durability than a regular human. You can even tell from the black blood and the pieces of him on the floor that he is rotting.

This shows more of that fight. It takes place right before she blitzed him into steaks. It's a speed feat that you did not replicate with Elektra. Again, I provided a scan and you responded with calling me a liar (poor form for a debate) and created your own context without providing support for that headcanon. As we can clearly see when looking at the action events leading up to the feat Maseo knows all about their history, is clearly capable of fighting (he was a master swordsman), and it was after Soultaker gave her a premonition that she blitzed him. How is he not on guard when he's been fighting her already? We can even see she was injured when she did it.

The featyou are referring to is impressive, but Elektra tends to dodge bullets rather than deflect them.
I provided you with TWO examples of Elektra dodging sniper rounds. This is far more impressive than dodging most other types of gunfire. To back this up, the speed of sound is about 340 m/s. The speed of a bullet from a sniper rifle is anywhere from 800 to 1000 m/s, so almost 3 times faster than the speed of sound. Has Katana done this?

Dodging bullets gets back to your earlier arguments about aim dodging, luck, or the shooter simply missing. Your scan of the snip shot looks like the sniper simply missed her, for example. Interacting with bullets demonstrates true bullet timing. Katana does this time after time after time. She also has bullet dodging feats if you prefer but I went with the better demonstration of control over dodging.

High caliber bullets do leave the barrel in the mach 2-3 range but the range from sniper shots prevents them from maintaining the speed over distance. Point blank timing is better. That's something your images were not supporting on Katana's level.

I gave images of Katana deflecting fully automatic fire from point blank range and from behind her. It's easy to give more. She does this all the time.

Both Elektra and Katana are casual bullet-timers, neither of us can deny that. However, there are many differences between their feats.
Elektra regularly dodges bullets, including from multiple gunmen surrounding her. She can deflect bullets from close range with her sais, which is more impressive than with a katana given the size difference of the weapons. Katanas are both wider and longer than even two sais combined, so it is more impressive to deflect bullets with sais than with a katana in that respect.
She has shown multiple times to be able to catch or cut arrows while in flight, but she can slice a bullet in halfas well. She has even deflected bullets with a pipe from point blank range, which shows she is skilled enough to deflect bullets with unconventional objects.

The bullet dodging from multiple gunmen surrounding Elektra was nothing more than presenting a difficult target to hit. That's not bullet timing. Deflecting bullets from close range using two weapons while facing the shooter < deflecting bullets from point blank using one weapon while the shooter is behind and controlling the deflection that to use those bullets against the shooter. Catching a bullet shot at someone else point blank using a weapon after moving to intercept > cutting a bullet in half aimed at Elektra. I really don't see how you think Elektra is as fast as Katana when it comes to bullet timing.

You have convinced me Elektra is faster than Roy given Roy caught a point blank arrow (which is far faster than the thrown dagger you presented) and dodged bullets from automatic fire (at close range and shot from behind him) just because he doesn't have the blocking bullets feats to her extent. I would be on the fence with her being faster than Jason given his speed showings at times but you might have an argument there. Elektra is not as fast as Katana.

The initial explosion wasn't that massive... You're implying the explosion was what caused the entire building to go up in flames and explode? The building was already very much on fire before the explosion

I am not implying anything. I know exactly what happened. The building was on fire before the explosion but it was Katana who caused the explosion in the elevator shaft. That was something she planned and had warned Batgirl and Black Canary in advance to scope out an exit and be ready for her signal. She set her target up to ignite when they went into the elevator shaft, and, unlike Canary and Batgirl, Katana did not need to be ready at an exit. The images I gave were a direct sequence of events after Katana caused the pack on her opponent to explode in that elevator shaft. Why would you post an out-of-context image of a burning room from earlier in the issue as the cause of the hotel exploding with nothing to back that up as the cause of the explosion? It's from 2011's Birds of Prey issue 8 for anyone to see why the hotel exploded.

Did you not have an example of Elektra matching that feat?

The fights with Lady Shiva and Deathstroke that you presented were not even actual fights though. Both lasted 3 panels and were not conclusive at all because neither resulted in a win/loss for the combatants. Lady Shiva ended the fight herself and left, and Deathstroke just disappeared without actually fighting back at all. Katana is nowhere near the level of Lady Shiva and Deathstroke in skill, and you claiming that is absurd.

The fight was Shiva was longer than 3 panels. It's not necessary to post the entire sequence to demonstrate the point that Shiva wanted to face Katana when Katana was not hampered by injuries. Deathstroke did attack Katana in that sequence as well. He missed as she dodged and countered by cutting him through his armor. He would have died by a stealth attack if it weren't for luck in that sequence. See more here and here.

The only thing that's absurd is your strawman argument regarding a conclusive win or loss. I never said Katana defeated them. Deathstroke admitted he was convinced she would have ended his life and Shiva left because she wanted to face Katana when Katana was at her best. In both cases there was a back and forth to place Katana in that level regardless of a win or a loss. In my scans, it's true Katana did not defeat either and it's equally true she was demonstrated facing both.

Where was your evidence Katana is not in their league? Again, you added headcanon and tried language emphasis like "absurd" with nothing to actually dispute what I presented.

Soooo because our characters are from two different universes, my arguments on skill are rendered null...? It goes both ways.

Your argument is rendered null because there isn't a quantifiable measurement for skill. Your arguments are based on a supposed skill level for other individuals that cannot be measured and then you scale Elektra off of that lack of measurement and then you compare to DC universe characters than cannot be quantified then make the presumption that the characters you could not quantify are somehow better than the characters in the DC universe for comparison. That goes into a never ending cycle of proving who is better and why that eventually will always come down to something that can somehow be quantified. IE we cannot see if Daredevil has ever beaten Batman for a direct comparison. It's better to skip straight to what we can see to demonstrate speed and skill.

That's why I showed Katana dealing with a massively superior physical opponent like Wylde with her H2H, and vampires with her H2H, and using pressure points or breaking bones with her H2H. Those demonstrate skill that we can see.

I'm not too familiar with OMAC, but with the limited research I just did on him, I see that his superhuman durability is based on blunt force and energy, with nothing on slashing durability to go on. Therefore, Katana being able to slice his arm off with a magical sword is not impressive or noteworthy at all. And if we're going to play that game, then Elektra being able to stab both Red Hulk and Red She Hulk and a Ghost Rider Super Skrull>>> Katana being able to slice off OMAC's arm.
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Those are some images of an OMAC fight to help with your research. Some of he keys moments in that fight are trashing Power Girl, tanking Steel, facing King Shark's father (a god) and winning, and (most importantly) an example of piercing / slashing durability against someone like King Shark. His bite specifically. King shark could not bite off OMAC's arm so Katana's repeat demonstrations of cutting OMAC arms is superior and easily all it would take to cut apart the durability of anyone on your team. She's cut off so many hands in her time it was added to the Suicide Squad movie against Incubus; a classic move from her.

Katana is very much down for the count in that scan... She survived, but she clearly is severely injured, practically KO'd, and probably borderline dying. I don't see how this really helps your case. Geo-Force on the other hand is still very injured but in better shape than her, seeing as he can lift himself up a bit and call out to Katana.

She's still conscious (barely, I admit) and it helps my case because Geo-Force is very durable and was also injured, and your team does not have that damage output.

So Katana has magic now...? The only thing magical about her is her sword, and Katana replying with "Magic" while smiling was clearly a sarcastic comment and not to be taken literally. This showing is purely based off of her magical sword and having superior skill to Zod, nothing more. If you're suggesting that Katana = General Zod then oh boy...

Another strawman. I never said Katana = Zod. I showed her barely conscious on the floor after Zod threw her into the wall. This is just another example of context that you have simply fabricated. The feat is that Katana moved in to block Zod's strike. The explanation given is that she was able to do so regardless of Zod's strength and speed because of magic. The magic is that she draws on the power of the sword to do more than she can normally do and has other examples to demonstrate it. Here is an image to demonstrate how that works from before she was accepted by the sword as it's master.

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Katana's sword isn't just a magic sword to cut and block things. We aren't even on the tip of the iceberg of what it can do because of tournament restrictions. Soultaker is an instrument of vengeance with it's own self contained dimension of which Katana is the master as the sword's master.

I have already provided you with multiple showings of Elektra's skill against opponents like Wolverine, Bullseye, Taskmaster, Iron Fist, etc. She has stalemated Daredevil multiple times too. Most of these guys are wayyyy above Katana in terms of skill. Unless you're claiming otherwise, in which case, oh boy...

I am claiming that those opponents are not wayyyy above Katana because that gets back to what I was saying earlier. It's not a measurable comparison. How have you shown that they are wayyyy above Katana? You say Elektra stalemated Daredevil. I say Katana > Daredevil based on feats provided that you simply continue to try and dismiss.

They aren't wayyyy above Katana based on your say so. Katana is wayyyy better than you are willing to acknowledge.

And this is impressive why...? You provided zero context for Sabbac, the power of the 7 Deadly Sins, or Shaggyman. Again, her magical sword being able to slash magical beings with little to no piercing/slashing durability is not impressive.

I didn't provided additional information for Zod or OMAC and the time either. Why question some and not others, particularly when you were doing research on OMAC per your responses. I would point out you did not provide context on most of your examples and spent all your time trying to dismiss my valid examples instead. Here is some info on why these characters are impressive.

Shaggyman is a known Justice League team buster. He normally requires BFR to defeat and if you read Waller's Justice League of America issues 4 and 5 you see that Katana's sword was instrumental in creating an opening for Stargirl. You also see Green Arrow's arrows and Hawkman's nth metal morning star and spiked gauntlet being useless.

Sabbac is a Marvel family villain who moved over to the Outsiders while Captain Marvel Junior was on the team. Originally he said the name "Sabbac" to gain the strength of Satan, invulnerability of Any, the wisdom of Belial, the flames of Beelzebub, the courage of Asmodeus, and the flight of Craeteis. The version Katana and the Outsiders was facing was a Russian hitman who had stepped up to mob boss and then taken over the powers of Sabbac in a ritual from the previous and no longer needed to speak the name, and he did not turn back. Base Sabbac was a 9ft tall demon with physicals on par with Shazam (Captain Marvel). He was capable of taking on the team in his base form (before Katana returned). When he absorbed the powers of the seven deadly sins he doubled in size and gained emotion manipulation abilities. Physically he was stomping the Outsiders (including Jade, Starfire, and Captain Marvel Jr) when Katana showed up. Her sword was instrumental in defeating Sabbac as well when Captain Marvel Jr managed to impale Sabbac and then Donna Troy was able to seal the deal when she drove it in further. This was a time when the sword was weaker with magic in flux during countdown.

Are you.....Did you just....Katana = Wonder Woman??? Oh boy...

That is not a rebuttal and is another strawman. It's an attempt to mock something not stated hoping voters think there's an argument there and I said no such thing. Amanda Waller said it based on ARGUS research. Argue with her if you disagree, lol. Katana was placed on that version of the JLA as a direct counter to Wonder Woman. Speed and stealth are more likely the reasons (it was never stated in what way Katana was meant to be a counter) and the feat was cutting Wonder Woman's swords before Wonder Woman could use them while facing Wonder Woman in open combat. This is consistent with other examples of Katana's speed as provided.

Katana did not actually defeat Shaggyman (she created the needed opening), or Sabbac (she provided the tools necessary), or Zod (she protected someone from him and injured him), or Wonder Woman (she demonstrated a fast attack breaking a mystical metal and was later kicked into Hawkman). The Katana = blah blah is your attempt to argue something not actually said instead of the actual feats provided. The feats demonstrate speed and damage against opponents well beyond street level durability. Katana has defeated OMAC's, however.

Also...

Boomerang being able to tag the gun of a distracted opponent is not very impressive. Your scaling is getting off the charts here.

Boomerang was a spy for Australian government before he turned to crime and fought the Flash. He's highly skilled and he's fast too.

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That's 3 images showing how he destroys a marketplace full of gun traffickers and one of him throwing a boomerang in synchronization with Deadshot to match hitting targets simultaneously.

Okay, woah. Not only is this an extreme outlier for Katana's stealth and a counter-feat for J'onn, but J'onn was specifically asked to get a lock on Katana and find out where she is and what she is doing. This was in reference to his telepathy, NOT his senses, which is further demonstrated by the fact that J'onn then commented on his telepathy being blocked. If he was asked to sense her in any way, including his enhanced senses, why would he comment on his telepathy alone? If J'onn's senses are as good as you hype them up to be, he should be able to locate a peak human like Katana. Katana has no superhuman abilities that result in her having super stealth powers. This would also not translate to our particular scenario, which is a combat situation where you spawn in an unknown, open area that my team has already scoped out and are in position for.

And MMH is what? Some kind of idiot who doesn't understand that the intent is to locate Katana so he uses only one method of detection out of his 9 senses and we ignore how good those senses are? It's the same feat Red Hood has against Supergirl that you agreed was a good feat in that case but choose to dispute in this case. In any event, Martians and Kryptonians have senses superior to what you have shown and this demonstrates Katana has incredible stealth.

So now Katana's stealth > Catwoman's stealth...? Oh boy...

That's not a rebuttal and yes Katana is stealthier than Catwoman. That's mockery pretending to be a rebuttal again. The context is that after a fight against robot versions of the Justice League, Katana stealthed in behind Catwoman without Catwoman noticing.

I would love to this outlier and see you argue Katana's stealth > Batman's stealth, but as this will be your final post, you cannot post more scans & feats.

It's nothing new because we were discussing it. It's also not an outlier just because you say it is given how much stealth we've seen from Katana. Also, why did you post new links in your final post and try to claim I cannot? You said this...

Here are a few new ones for you

You cannot post new information in your final post and then tell me I cannot do the same because it's my final post. I won't start posting things to which it's not fair that you do not get a chance to respond but I will provide information based on what we were already discussing.

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With context, the images show Katana sneaking up on Deadshot and Batman, who were sneaking out of Belle Reeve and no one could find them. Katana not only easily found both, she was clearly there undetected at least long enough to have been listening to their conversation about Deadshot's daughter and could have easily dropped both like she has in the past instead to prevent them from leaving. I included the reference to Deadshot's hand that she mentioned in the second image where she took her sword back from stealth and cut off Deadshot's hand before he could react. The other two are just another example where Katana and Harley were both able to sneak up on Enchantress and Batman because you like to call "outlier".

Katana can find Batman when he's being stealthy. Katana can sneak up on Batman.

I'd like to end this section by saying that most of Katana's feats are done with her katana, the only weapon she uses and the only one she a master of. Elektra, on the other hand, is a master of several weapons, including sais, katanas, knives, shuriken, staffs, etc. Elektra is also a master of several forms of martial arts. So who do you think is more skilled: the woman who has mastered only one weapon, or the woman who has mastered several weapons and several martial arts?

You mean except for the pressure point strike I showed where she dropped Geo-Force, facing and throwing Wylde, breaking the neck of a vampire with a single strike, kicking Shiva or catching Shiva's sword? Two things wrong with this:

  1. It doesn't matter how many weapons or martial arts a person knows if the other is superior with one. That does not guarantee victory at all.

  2. Katana has mastered more than just the blade anyway. That was another assumption you made about what Katana does or does not know. Off the top of my head: Karate, Akido, Judo, Kendo. Katana has demonstrated her skill with unarmed combat (as shown), the sword (as shown), and regularly uses shuriken or a short blade. She has demonstrated her skills with fans, escrima sticks, bow, and ribbon sword too.

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That's a couple with shuriken, one with sticks, and three showing an arsenal of concealed weapons. The Soultaker is definitely her predominant weapon but she carries a few shuriken for range. Pre52 gave her shuriken as standard equipment. Rather than make assumptions or invent context or restrictions, it would have been better to ask. If you ask and I give information for you to work with it looks better than if you give incorrect information that I then correct. The information comes out the same but your credibility can take a hit through something that might be nothing more than a misunderstanding or oversight.

Red Hood

IIRC, Lady Shiva beat Jason pretty quickly and easily in their first fight. In this fight, Jason even acknowledged that he couldn't beat her in hand-to-hand combat, so he uses a shortcut she taught him (a pressure point) to take her out. Also, this is New-52 Shiva, who is far less impressive than Pre-52 Shiva.

The fight they had previously was with an amnesiac Jason, who took her and Cheshire both out anyway with a flash bang (RHatO 21). The only thing she did before getting grenade popped was kick him once from behind after his motorcycle was blown up. It was Greystone (Blood Mage) who captured Jason. Also, what happened to your argument that we are using composite characters?

DC is composite Post-Crisis/New52/Rebirth

As it is, Rebirth Shiva boot-stomped Batman. She didn't do the same to Jason and did not reappear in RHatO after that. It was also stated Cassandra Cain could bead Shiva or Batman in various series, did beat Nightwing, and Jason easily took her too.

What the image I gave demonstrated was non-amnesiac Jason dodge her kick that came from behind, counter by sweeping the leg, and then drop her with a pressure point. Who taught him that isn't really relevant. What's relevant is that he can do it. During the process he is distracting her in the way he speaks to facilitate the opening per my scans of facing Batman.

This also ties back to what I mentioned earlier with respect to what is considered top street level skill. As soon as Shiva comes up, you looked for a reason to dismiss her and therefore the feat but there isn't a valid reason that the feat should be dismissed.

Yes, but there is still a lot of important, missing information from this. Did Jason take Slade by surprise or was it a fair and even fight? Was Slade fighting to the fullest of his capabilities? Deathstroke not having his healing factor is a significant handicap to him... And just because Red Hood wasn't intending to kill him doesn't mean he was playing games and not going full-out.

He's playing games because that's what Slade said during the fight.

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You are looking for additional context that doesn't exist. Slade did not have his healing factor, as mentioned, and had been in combat not long before that. There was, however, no indication that Slade's skills and speed were compromised. There was definite confirmation that Jason was playing a game. During that encounter, Jason did shoot Slade once from stealth and gave him a flesh wound. That would have been the death of Slade if Jason meant it, similar to the scenario I have been stating for Jason to be able to take out your team. After Jason did not kill Slade when he had the chance, Jason avoided return fire, they went to a back-and-forth CQC, it led to this, and the entire time Jason was playing that game and using his ability to distract through conversation.

There are several things wrong with this. First, Jason took Batman by surprise. Second, Batman was not fighting back much. Third, Batman only stated he couldn't hold back at the END of the fight.

Batman did not say that at the end of the fight. That being the end of the fight was one of your assumptions. I can only post so many images and all I needed was to demonstrate that Batman could not beat Jason unless Batman was not holding back while my earlier scan demonstrated that Jason was holding back. I also wanted to demonstrate that Jason was skilled enough and fast enough to disarm Batman's utility belt (that's a rare feat indeed) and Jason's method of distraction through conversation because he does it a lot.

Where did you get Jason taking Batman by surprise in those images? The comment "he would indeed be surprised"? That's commentary about a person in the alley 5 stories below and not an indication of Jason surprising Batman in that scan. That story opened up to them being in the middle of a fight. You are adding context again, but it might have been a comment taken out of context in that image. My apologies for missing that when I posted.

Bottom line: holding back Jason Todd is a challenge for non-holding back Batman. Jason distracts through conversation and you have demonstrated nothing to indicate this would not be effective against anyone on your team.

What feats does Onyx have as a trained assassin to make this impressive?

Pinning someone to the wall before they notice being pinned to the wall or being stabbed would be impressive with fodder. Onyx is a typical street level assassin turned vigilante who sneaks around unseen, dodges bullets, kicks doors of their hinges, and beats up rooms full of bad guys. A person only needs to understand she's well trained to add to how impressive that was beyond just fodder.

I see we are using the term "speedster" very loosely here....She is fast, but hardly a speedster. In the scan where he "blitzed" her, she was clearly not even moving and just stood there.

We used the term "speedster" because that's the style of combat she demonstrated when she weaved around bullets he was shooting. When I first mentioned it I called her a low end speedster and when you questioned it I pointed out that she's easily at least bullet-timing. You are implying I was over-selling it when I was being clear on her abilities. She does appear to be moving in the second image unless you think that stance is her casual standing around stance but she is the second target in his blitz and he blitzes her before she can fully react. What did you think blitzing meant?

Matching? Where? All I see is him getting owned pretty easily. And at no point does she say he was holding back.

The first scan showed him dodging her speed and the second her bullet-timing level speed. And to be sure, he's mostly just surviving her striking power but that's still pretty good considering she's a Wonder Woman knock off. He's not faster than she is otherwise I would have said faster instead of matching and he would have been avoiding those hits.

And what she actually says is "pulling his punches".

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That scan shows the comment and that he's fine after taking the blows she gave. It also shows how he manipulates positioning in combat working with someone whom he just met, without her actually working with him yet. Anyone in the Bat-family kicks ass at tactics.

Okay…?

Again, that's not a rebuttal. Aside from needing to be stupidly fast in order to fire pistols to simulate automatic fire while the muzzle flash is still going off from other shots, that's nearly 2 dozen shots almost instantly. You don't have any feats showing that level of blocking on your team. Imagine if he had done that to Deathstroke instead of 3 non-kill shots.

Based on her bullet-timing feats and her showings against very skilled and fast opponents (i.e. Wolverine, Taskmaster, Iron Fist, etc.) I'm quite confident she has the speed advantage necessary to win. Jason holds the advantage in gear, and a slight advantage in strength/durability, but Elektra is far superior in skill, and decently superior in speed.

His advantage in strength and durability is more than slight. He's been shown to be stronger than Batman. Punching through a sub hull or tossing around 600 lbs like nothing beats her holding up 2 grown men of undetermined weight. Getting tossed by Frankenstein and getting right back up is impressive. He's got solid skill, speed, better equipment, better strength, better durability, and she's going to give him an opening while he distracts her through banter if it ever came down to between the two of them.

Killer Croc

The height of the fall is not clear, and I doubt it was several hundred feet in the air. Not only that, but he clearly jumped down, rather than being teleported several hundred feet into the sky and dropped down. There is a big difference. Jumping down will mostly maintain your orientation and keep you upright so that you land on your feet due to the momentum and trajectory of the jump. Being dropped from a great height, however, will make it very difficult for someone to maintain their orientation to stay upright and land feet-first.

No, the higher up a person is the more time he or she has to adjust his or her body to land how he or she wants. Skydivers, divers, and acrobats do this all the time. Also here is a terminal velocity calculator for you to play with. 300 lbs is under 300 fps. Any character who could survive a 200 mph crash is going to survive the distances you want to discuss.

Here are examples of insane falls from great heights in the real world for normal people who come out with minor injuries.

The entire Suicide Squad survived atmospheric re-entry and crash landing. Sure, Enchantress made a hole in the ice but they still hit water after their drop ship was destroyed. Surface tension still existed.

That's all still moot because your plan is to attack Jason first with the drop attack, which would fail based on his reflexes and speed, which doesn't come into play because Azazel does not know where Jason is at the beginning of combat, etc. And Roy can catch targets with nets or set up a string line for Jason's acrobatics to break his fall.

Can you confirm the amount of time between him landing and him appearing in the room with no damage? Because unless you can, you can't assume there was some time in between where he was not KO'd or injured and then recovered after an hour or a few hours.

That's speculation. You are back to creating something that doesn't exist to fit a preconceived outcome. The only evidence is that Croc was thrown from that height and that same night he is shown without injury. That is the only evidence in that instance.

You'll need to do better than 1 example of Killer Croc being too fast for Batman from point-blank range to justify his speed as being anywhere near my team's...

Your team's...? You've shown practically squat for your team's speed other than Elektra. You showed Azazel can react to gunfire when everyone in this match can do that and you showed Typhoid Mary against some fodder with a few shots in one image and one decent image reacting to gunfire. For someone who likes to use the term "outlier" you really didn't demonstrate how those few examples weren't outliers.

But since you brought it up, I demonstrated Croc no selling Robin's speed in my opening and blitzing guards at Belle Reeve. Here is the first again where Croc's heighted sense pick up opponents he blitzes and Robin's speed.

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Here is another example of Croc vs Bats where Croc used enhance senses and was on Batman after warning Batman he was there.

As I said earlier, Croc usually acts like a walking protective barrier but he does have enhanced speed and senses. Azazel is not demonstrated to be faster than Batman.

He was my first assault to take everyone by surprise; this doesn't mean he is my best assault. Even if he only manages to tele-drop just Red Hood, and it is unlikely he will only get to tele-drop just him, then I take out your 2-pointer with my 1-pointer and cause a momentary distraction for your team, which leads to the next 2 steps of my strategy.

Except I gave plenty of reason for this to fail.

Arsenal

That's great and all, but only his bow and arrows are considered standard equipment... So yeah, without his bow, he is quite useless in this match. Based on our image of the battlefield, there isn't much he can use as a weapon anyways. No clipboards, paperclips, syringes, pens, chopsticks, etc. His best chance are scavenging the weapons from Red Hood's dead corpse :) But by then, it will be too late for him.

Standard equipment is from any run.

Standard Gear, which means any gear consistently used for a long period of time(like an entire run for example) and still qualifies as street tier

Per the rules I can use standard gear from Roy's time in various incarnations, which does include times when he carried guns. I used bow and arrow feats because those were his best, and not because those are the only options. Instead of complicating the discussion further, however, I will simply point out that Roy uses his arrows as weapons when his bow is broken just like other times that's happened. He can use them CQC or he can throw them. He has unlimited ammo as a perk so it's not possible for Typhoid Mary to burn all his weapons.

While it is impressive that he survived 5 gunshots, including to the heart/lung, he was KO'd. Elektra, after getting stabbed straight through the chest and at least one major organ given the location of the stab, managed to walk her way several blocks before going down. Much more impressive.

There is no evidence of any major organs damaged in the Elektra scan. Only a chest wound. We are assuming the organs and some organ damage can take hours or days to kill a person.

Since you provided a few feats, I'll agree that his zip lines and net arrows are standard for him. However, you didn't really provide any feats to suggest that his explosive arrows, foam retardants, and other unique arrows are considered standard equipment for him.

Zip lines and net arrows is all it takes to stop Azazel from dropping Jason. Glue arrows, tasers, and explosives are also standard although he mentions glue arrows multiple times but I don't recall him using them. The foam retardant requires opportunity to use so it doesn't come up much.

I demonstrated Roy blowing up a truck and dropping a large opponent with explosive arrows in my opening, and here is another example.

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And a quick example of a taser just to show you he has those too. Roy is definitely not useless in the unlikely event his bow gets destroyed.

Perks

Assuming I can start where I want due to my prep, I already explained how Elektra will start off hidden at a high vantage point that provides her with the best view of the area. This will enable her to locate your team before you even see anyone on my team, which she can then relay to her teammates via earpieces.
Assuming I have to start at my spawn point, it alters my strategy a bit but not by much. Since my team had the chance to survey the area, we are much more familiar with it than your team will be. This, coupled with Elektra's far superior stealth, will enable her to locate your team before you can locate anyone of my team, and from there, the rest of my strategy stays the same. Mary and Azazel will still stay hidden while Elektra scouts out your team. Even if your team detects Elektra as she detects you, your position is still compromised, which leads to Azazel beginning the assault while your team's focus is being held by Elektra.

I demonstrated half my team disappearing in broad daylight against high end senses. Your team is lacking in feats detecting that level of stealth. Elektra has good stealth but I have shown Katana no-sell detecting magical cloaking from Enchantress and easily finding and sneaking up on Batman while he was sneaking out of Belle Reve. I have demonstrated detecting high end stealth. I also demonstrated that Soultaker has it's own senses and communicates that information, and I demonstrated that Katana can intuitively sense attacks.

Elektra finds and attacks Croc and Roy at best. This takes time because there is no indication that your team can change the spawn point and no indication that either team knows where the other will spawn.

That gets back to your team coming in and getting ambushed by my stealthy members.

You never provided me with any feats showing Jason going up against a rapid teleporter like Azazel. The most you showed is him going up against an opponent with barely-superhuman speed. Not the same. Jason is definitely faster than Azazel, I'm not denying that.

No, I showed him facing faster opponents than Azazel, compared his reactions to bullet timers who are faster than Azazel, demonstrated that he can hide from and ambush Azazel, and gave solutions to being dropped as a worst case scenario.

If your plan is to stop and discuss once the battle begins, then you are even more doomed than I initially believed.

Is your team talking with their hands and feet or fighting with their mouths? Because everyone on my team can fight and talk at the same time. It was even demonstrated in several scans.

You have 1 extra person...

Which can be a deal breaker. Don't worry though, my numbers advantage increases quickly. :-D

More versatile than a deadly assassin with melee and ranged options, a ninja with pyrokinesis and telekinesis, and a teleporter...?

Yes because the ranged options of your assassin are meaningless given you haven't shown any significant feats for them, they won't damage Croc who sees razor batarangs regularly, they won't hit Katana or Red Hood or Arsenal who have all dodged faster attacks in the feats provides; The ninja with pyrokinesis cannot use those abilities on what she cannot see, has no significant range displayed, and is limited to 10 lbs of telekinetic force, and the teleporter doesn't have the speed or reflexes to deal with his intended targets while the main focus of his attacks has been easily foiled by the versatility of Roy's arrows, among other things.

Both Mary and Elektra can attack from range, just like how Arsenal and Red Hood can attack from range as well. Katana and Killer Croc NEED to be in melee range in order to be of any use.

It's hard to call what you've shown with Mary and Elektra as "ranged". Elektra threw a sai and Mary has been close to all her targets. Certainly nothing like the range we see from Jason or Roy.

Magical advantage...? Katana has a magical sword and Red Hood can conjure up swords. Not a big deal nor a noteworthy advantage.

Both can do more. Your arguments did not bring anything up that would have required Jason's all-caste training to do more and drawing on the power of Soultaker allows Katana to do things she could not normally do, such as block Zod's attacks, as shown.

I will admit that your team holds the advantage in intelligence, but the difference is marginal and it is one of the least important factors in our fight.

Jason was shown to be a master detective and expert in many areas as well as a multi-doctoral level, and capable of understanding and adapting advanced alien technology. Between the two of them Roy is the smart one. I don't see anything you post as putting them even close, let alone marginal.

No. You provided one or two very limited examples of Katana and/or her sword being able to sense danger. Danger sense isn't an ability that is commonly associated with Katana and it is by no means an important factor in our fight.

It's not spider-sense, but she definitely shows a sixth sense and senses attacks as I demonstrated. Soultaker adds even more and often. Soultaker senses souls, seeks vengeance, communicates and warns, and gives advice.

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I would give more examples if time were not a concern but these will suffice for now.

Oh boy....this wanking & scaling is out of hand.

That is not a rebuttal. It's an attempt to discredit without evidence. You don't have to accept the high showing for Kryptonian and Martian senses but you do have to accept they are beyond what you have shown your team can detect.

None of these are actual combat scenarios though. And it takes time to set up explosives, get away, and detonate them. Time that Jason will not have in this fight, in an environment he is completely unfamiliar with as opposed to my team. It seems highly unlikely that as Jason spawns, his first instinct will be to set up explosives.

The one set that I mentioned was during combat took place during combat. He dove behind cover, rigged them, sent them out, and blew them up (and his opponents who had been shooting at him) as he cleared the area. And no, his first instinct will not be to set them to blow. It would be something he does intelligently as needed. It's not needed in the scenario I described. It's simply another option available.

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Those are the fight he was in when he set the bombs while in combat. If he needs longer, he is demonstrated to be capable of avoiding your team to do so.

*Says coms are often used*

*Doesn't provide proof*

*Decides his team won't need them anyways*

Coms are often used. They were in Outsiders, they were in RHatO, and they were in Suicide Squad. I don't need to worry about it because I also have additional coms as a perk regardless of why I have them, and if I do need the C4 (which I have yet to say I'm actually using in this discussion but you seem hung up on it) then I will worry about digging out the additional information.

Your Rebuttals

30+ years...? It was about a decade. First Class took place in 1962 and DofP took place in 1973. Azazel died sometime within that time frame. Not sure where you got 30+ years from.

Because

He trained Mystique in martial arts and acrobatics, and we know how much of a skilled fighter Mystique is

shows her skills in the original trilogy, which came out in the year 2000 and opened with "in the not to distant future". Her skills in your video are from 30 years after he died. He is a composite character of all his feats from each movie. Of which he was in one.

It isn't though....

Please see my above comments on terminal velocity and examples of real life individuals taking minor injuries on such falls that your fodder agents did not survive. Other than that, this has been addressed in Roy's gear at the very least.

I'm not sure what image you are looking at, but the majority of the area of our battlefield is solid ground. There are very, very few trees, barely any "soft canopy roofs", and certainly no multi-story structures. Again, it is also much easier to use a grappling line while falling feet first from a jump than it would be from being dropped from the sky.

I am looking at the building in the top and left for multi-stories. The "tractor" you mentioned is likely the telehandler but I also see excavators and cranes for size. We have also circled back to disagreeing that Jason would have the reflexes to deal with Azazel and ignoring the nets Roy shot at the ground to catch himself and Green Arrow in my earlier scans. Aiming for one of those several trees to break his fall seems likely too if it came down to it. And we're also still back to the fact Azazel needs to find his targets in the first place. There are many arguments against your strategy. The only one you have "but teleporter" ignoring reflexes (seems like neck feats? to me; too specific) and ignoring the stealth strategy I presented.

Not only is his chest taser clearly not a standard, go-to move of his, but I provided several counters to it already.

I will group my response to all of those with this:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7

Another fodder, Anarky (which was bright enough to light up the sky), Captain Boomerang and 2 more fodders, another shot of the fodder in the large room re HIVE and a demonstration that he was selective in his targets as he left one to point his gun at, and Penguin's fodder while also selecting not to target Penguin. Notice the taser was used as an automated defense in the instance of Boomerang. It's been shown to have selective targeting, auto-defense, and manual over-ride. It also was introduced in the Rebirth one-shot when used on Batman and has been used throughout the Rebirth run as shown above, which makes it clearly standard equipment and used often enough that he can make an intelligent decision to use it.

Disappears from view from Stick (link), who is known for this trick and has trained Daredevil and Elektra. Stick is a master of stealth/detection who has been able to pick up on Daredevil many times and even Sentry admits Stick is one of the few people who can hide from him.

Stick being stated to hide from Sentry does not give Stick the same ability to detect Elektra. Also, statement < feats even if this somehow equated to Stick having Sentry's senses instead of Stick beating Sentry's senses. Stick is still less than Kryptonian and Martian senses.

As for the pyro arguments et al, I have demonstrated that it's not possible to take the weapons away from anyone on my team. Soultaker does not have some inherent weakness in the handle to exploit like you implied and it's clear she isn't above Zod's heat vision. It might be possible for her to get at Jason's guns if she can see them but he's left with the all swords. Croc uses clawing, biting, and pummeling. He's also strong enough to hurl some solid equipment in the site. Roy losing his bow leaves his arrows, of which he has an unlimited supply.

Earlier I demonstrated blowback from Soultaker before Katana was chosen as it's master. That isn't the only example from that time in her history.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

She could hold a burning sword even if Mary could burn it. Mary cannot, as we've seen, but that applies to things like gloves.

I already showed naked Jason hand flames. At best for you he's naked and still a major threat here. This is more likely.

No Caption Provided

Jason yanked Superwoman eyes from her sockets to prevent her from using heat vision. Elektra and Katana aren't the only ones who go for the vulnerabilities in their targets. (I slipped that in after my opponent had a section in rebuttals called "Here are a few new ones for you". I don't think that breaks etiquette as just another example of cunning and skill) One sneak attack from either stops her in her tracks, and she cannot take Croc before he bites her head off based on what you have shown. She doesn't have what it takes to overcome his durability.

Conclusion

My team takes this handily. They have demonstrated all they need in order to go for cover, hide, and attack the other team as it comes in to follow the failing strategy as given. They may spot Croc and / or Roy (which is questionable based on the lack of feats the provided) and that only turns Croc and Roy into bait for an easier ambush.

Elektra, Mary, and Azazel have not demonstrated the ability to spot my ambushers. They have not demonstrated equivalent range. They have not demonstrated equivalent durability or the durability to withstand my team's attacks. They have not demonstrated equivalent intelligence. They are outnumbered and outgunned.

Red Hood can literally one shot them with his chest taser while they cannot locate him and they have no real answer to that attack as he opens with it from stealth and then falls back to his typical distracting dialogue and high end combat if necessary.

There really is no way my team is losing this match.

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#25 Posted by Ashrym (2675 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: @geekryan:

Remind me to take less characters next time, lol. Too many creates too much info to go through.

Win or lose, it was enjoyable.

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#26 Posted by geekryan (3170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym said:

@kevd4wg: @geekryan:

Remind me to take less characters next time, lol. Too many creates too much info to go through.

Win or lose, it was enjoyable.

Haha I'm sure!

Best of luck to you :)

@kevd4wg could you open this for votes please?

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#27 Edited by geekryan (3170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym: Just as a heads up though, presenting new scans in your final post without giving me a chance to address them is really not cool and quite frowned upon in debates.

Also, why did you post new links in your final post and try to claim I cannot? You said this...

The difference is that you can address my new scans in your final post. I can't address any of your new scans and feats now since your post was the last of the debate.

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#28 Edited by Ashrym (2675 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: I understand where you are coming from but then that turns into a cycle where you were able to post new scans in your final post where I would have been unable to respond with my own.

I kept it to what we had been discussing. The only one I may gave been pushing it on was the eye gouge and I trust voters to ignore it if they agree.

Best of luck either way. I don't get hubg up on debates. :-)

edit: lol I remembered more I wanted to add and held back as well. I definitely did not want to pull a real nasty move ;-)

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#29 Edited by geekryan (3170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym said:

@geekryan: I understand where you are coming from but then that turns into a cycle where you were able to post new scans in your final post where I would have been unable to respond with my own.

I kept it to what we had been discussing. The only one I may gave been pushing it on was the eye gouge and I trust voters to ignore it if they agree.

Best of luck either way. I don't get hubg up on debates. :-)

edit: lol I remembered more I wanted to add and held back as well. I definitely did not want to pull a real nasty move ;-)

It isn't the same. I went first in the debate, so you go last. I presented a few new scans in my final post because I knew you would be able to address them in the your final post. Since your final post was the last one of the debate, I don't get a chance to address them at all. Do you see the difference?

Kev has given me permission to address your new scans in another post and we end the debate there. But I'm in 3 new tournaments and in finals, so I don't have the time for that.

I will just ask all the voters to keep all of this in mind when making your decision.

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#30 Posted by Ashrym (2675 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: @geekryan: I have no issues with giving you the chance to respond if you have concerns.

I still deserve an equal number of posts, however, and Kev should be including me in any decision making discussions.

It is unfair to deny the last post the opportunity to supply scans in response to a post that introduced new scans and new arguments to be addressed.

If you create a closing with no new info then I will create a closing with no new info. That would reset any disagreement fairly.

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#31 Posted by geekryan (3170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym: You really aren't understanding the issue here...

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#33 Posted by Kevd4wg (10830 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: @ashrym:If you guys want to have one extra round of posts, that's fine(both of you would get an extra one), but I'm capping you at 4. Neither of you use new scans if you want a 4th round.

Online
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#34 Posted by geekryan (3170 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: Not interested. This debate has gone on for too long already, and as I said, I'm too busy with other tournaments and final exams to put work into an extra post. And given Ashrym's last post, there's no guarantee he won't post anything new in the next one.

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#35 Posted by Ashrym (2675 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Are you sure you don't want to go the 4th round? It seems like the obvious solution because it null and voids and argument about final posts in the 3rd round and it seemed like you were finding the time for a final 4th post before changing your mind.

I would respect your decision in any case. I just think the extra round would be a good resolution with clear expectations going in. It's not too late.... I don't see any votes yet...…….

If you choose to forgo it I will still respect that. At least I tried. :)

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#36 Posted by geekryan (3170 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym: No thanks. I don't think you should have added new scans and feats in your last post to begin with, so it shouldn't have to involve more work and time on my part to fix that.

I'll just leave it to the voters at this point to acknowledge that, and hope they vote on the better debater while keeping in mind the etiquette of debates.

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#37 Posted by Ashrym (2675 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by geekryan (3170 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: can you change the OP too to say it is open for votes?

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#40 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (1969 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: my vote goes to @geekryan (that's twice I voted for you now in roughly 24 hours lol), whilst @ashrym certainly held his own, I felt that Geekryan had a better constructed team, a more thought out/better battle-plan, and generally just a better character in the form of Typhoid. Good debate though lads, whoever wins I hope to face in the next round So I can get myself an easy win :).

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#41 Posted by Ashrym (2675 posts) - - Show Bio
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#42 Posted by _KingofLatveria (17942 posts) - - Show Bio

If I dont vote in 24 hours, bump me

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#43 Posted by Kevd4wg (10830 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
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#44 Posted by geekryan (3170 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by cdiddyman911 (5520 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll vote on this sometime tomorrow

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#47 Posted by geekryan (3170 posts) - - Show Bio

bump for votes

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#48 Posted by Chimeroid (8970 posts) - - Show Bio

I really want to read this, but there is soo many characters hit me up tomorrow so i can see if i can do it.

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#49 Posted by Ashrym (2675 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: NP, and appreciate the effort. Several characters does make for long posts and I habitually tend to long responses already. I'm working on that, honest! :)

The characters are all separated individually by spoilers so that should help. I'll tag you tomorrow to hit you up.

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#50 Posted by Ashrym (2675 posts) - - Show Bio