Street Tier Deathmatch tourney: TomTheAwesome123 vs Chronicplane(Open for votes)

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#1  Edited By emperorthanos-  Moderator

Welcome to the first round of my new Deathmatch Tourney

@tomtheawesome123

1. Ultimate Kars

2. Scar from FMA

3. Sing from Kung Fu Hustle

Perks

Full knowledge on enemy

Perfect Team Work

Character:

Teleporter for Scar

Invisibility for Scar

No Caption Provided

@chronicplane

No Caption Provided
  • Luther Strode
  • MCU Iron Man (IM1/Civil War)
  • Edward Elric

Perks:

Team:

  • Perfect Team Work
  • Full Knowledge

Character:

  • Invisibility(Edward)
  • Teleportation(Edward)

Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap, KO
  2. In character
  3. No Prior Knowledge.
  4. Energies are not equalized.
  5. Characters start on opposite ends of a map
  6. Teamwork is not perfect but characters won't attack each other.
  7. There is Friendly Fire
  8. No BFR
  9. Standard Gear
  10. Character Limits and Banned Abilities

Battleground - City Escape D

OK this is the map for round. You start on opposite sides of the map. Team 1 on the north and team 2 on the south. You are dropped off on the ground between buildings

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Information on the the map

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TAEP

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#4 stormshadow_x  Online

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#6  Edited By tomtheawesome123

Sing

No Caption Provided

Speed

Is able to contend well with The Beast until the beast uses the Frog Style which is a special technique.

The Beast is able to catch this bullet at point blank

The bullet is from a a Webley Mk Vi

The bullet has a minimum speed of 180m/s (The actual source is from a paper called Revolvers of the British Services 1854-1954 - W.H.J. Chamberlain and A.W.F. Taylerson)

Now the bullet speed is only 180m/s , but you have to consider the fact that The Beast moves his hans at several times the distance that the bullet did in the same time frame.

I have ran this video through Adobe Premiere Pro and extracted the frames, and then used Microsoft paint to measure the pixels. And it turns out that The Beast moved his hands a horizontal distance of about 5.45x that of the bullet. This means The beast's movement speed is 5.45x of the bullet,

Applying that to 180m/s gives mach 2.83.

Note that I am ultra lowballing here, a lot of modern articles put the gun at 190m/s minimum in speed which raises the speed of The Beast to about mach 2.99

Sing reacted to the Beast's attacks (which would be his movement speed) which means he reacted to Mach 2.83 attacks at close quarter range.

This is impressive when you consider the nature of reacting to attacks.

If I dodged a bullet fired 1 meter away, that is twice as impressive as me dodging the same bullet from 2 meters away, and three times as impressive as me dodging it from 3 meters away etc.

A supersonic character can even dodge a hypersonic attack if the distance is high enough due to this. In fact, distance playing a factor is a reason why humans can easily perceive massively hypersonic meteorites before they hit the ground. Distance matters

And if you make an even more extreme case. A regular human can even react to a light speed attack if the distance is horrendously big. If someone fired a laser at you from the sun, you can easily do a lot of things before it reaches you, this is because it takes around 8 minutes for light from the sun to reach the Earth.

The reason I am emphasizing distance here, is because a lot of "supersonic" and "bullet timing" feats posted by a lot of users in CAVs show characters reacting to supersonic attacks from a couple of meters away. Although the bullet The beast reacted to is subsonic, since it was point blank and his hand moved several times faster than it. It puts him at very high supersonic. And puts Sing at incredible speeds too. Reacting to a mach 2.83 attack at close quarter range is very rare for supersonic characters.

I also want to emphasize the consistency of arguing Sing at this level of speed. Kung Fu Hustle is literally just one movie, meaning I don't have to post a lot of feats to be able to prove this isn't an outlier like in comics. There are also no antifeats which put Sing at below this level of speed.

I will give another piece of evidence in order to cover my bases.

This fight scene shows characters reacting to sound based attacks from a harp . The attacks are mach 1 but the distance the characters begin reacting to it make me put them at high subsonic. The harpists themsleves at the beginning physically contend with these characters which put them at the same speed too.

Both harpists then get manhandled by a sleeping mustache guy

Mustache guy and his wife who is equal to him then gets overpowered and blitzed by the beast

So the portrayal of the verse also does not contradict Sing's speed here.

DC , Durability and Strength

His main attack at the end of the movie is the Buddha Palm

This should put him at the limits considering that this is the reference house for the limits of DC . This image is from ET himself.

Note that when Sing did that feat, the height of the damage was higher than that of the reference house, but don't worry it isn't above the limits since the house makes up for it in width. It kind of evens out because although the section of the apartment building he busts is higher than the house, the width of the house makes up for it.

Sing's durability is able to tank this

Now, as for pure strength. Sing obviously could hurt the beast with pure strength as shown in a video I posted already. The beast himself is able to tank crashing into multiple walls when he smashes into things with his frog technique without complaint which Sing also tanked.

Sensing

Kung Fu masters in this verse can sense others. It is implied it only works on people who are strong but it should be useful here.

Context here is that The beast located the two masters in another room

Ultimate Kars

No Caption Provided

Speed , Strength , Regen and Durability

The Ultimate Lifeform

Kars is the pinnacle of life. He has many unique abilities due to this.

He can turn his body or parts of it into that of any other lifeform.

When he fires Pirahnas at Joeseph, he can at a distance morph them into an octopus. Note that the octopus is strong enough to break through that plane

If you look at this image He also has other assortment of abilities too. He has his horn which can detect heat and air pressure. This means he basically has the sensing abilities of Wammu, Wammu can sense air pressure with his horn too and is an inferior being to Ultimate Kars. If you watch the Joeseph vs Wammu fight from the video and after you will see that Wammu does the entire rest of the fight while blind because he can use his airhorn sensing.

He has really good vision, comparable to a telescope. Now since the manga at that point is set in the 20th century, we go by telescopes during the 20th century. But if we ultra lowball then we can go by inferior telescopes from earlier points of history such as Isaac Newton's one that is a magnification of 35x . Now that means he can see with 35x more range than a normal human can.

Can also sense people through heat

With his arm blade he can emit light to blind people

Being a pillarmen, he also has the basic pillar men abilities such as:

Being able to digest others with any part of his body, he can just absorb people into his body and digest them

Every cell releases digestive fluid which allows them to eat with every cell of their body , the ability can be countered with a very specific power called Hamon though.

Can do this in a dangerous way where walking into someone bifurcates them due to absorption and digestion of half their body

Now you might be wondering, why didn't Kars just do this to all his enemies? The answer is that its because Joseph and Lisa Lisa, the enemies he actually fights can use Hamon which is a counter to this digestion. Hamon is not something your characters have.

(The section above gets crossed out because ET in the Discord banned the ability, I still want to actually physically include it since it is cool feats for anybody who wants to learn more about Kars and JJBA)

Can morph their body to fit through gaps

Another thing you might have noticed from the picture above laying out his abilities is that he has 400 IQ. This is actually not a joke and there are intelligence feats for pillarmen inferior to Kars.

Santana the stupidest Pillarmen can learn a new language in a short period of time.

Santana can understand a new piece of machinery like a gun enough to accurately disassemble it after just seeing it once

Wammu in combat can calculate the trajectory of this crossbow shot . Wammu is an inferior pillarmen.

Another display of Kars' intellect is shown in a previous scan I posted where he survives being vaped by Lava by creating a suit using the correct animal species.

He has access to Hamon. Originally Hamon is suppose to be like an anti undead energy source. But his Hamon is so powerful that it can even hurt those that aren't undead. Here it melts Joseph's skin like lava

Scar

No Caption Provided

Speed and Reflexes

Scar vs Edward and Alphonse, . Able to scale to him

But how fast is Edward?

Alphonse also has bullet reacting feats

So since Scar can react to both of them at once, he is sort of fast. Not really as fast as the other 2 on my team but decent with regards to the tourney.

Alchemy

So in FMA the magic system is called Alchemy, essentially speaking... FMA characters can reconstruct and deconstruct items. Scar is very special, Scar didn't actually learn Alchemy normally but instead had tatoos on him which allow him to deconstruct and reconstruct material without the training. He uses his right arm to deconstruct:

Alchemy has utility, by deconstructing the ground he can create a dust cloud.

Can deconstruct a mass of spikes and consequently creates a dust cloud.

Can do it on people . Deconstructs them

Has enough skill to move his deconstruct to a distance and attack opponents from there.

He can use his other arm to reconstruct things.

Physical Strength and Durability

He is superhuman, able to throw a pipe so fast that it impales and then knocks back a grown man a couple of meters. There is not much reason to show off his physical strength except one (revealed during prep).

Tanks this, gets slammed so hard he dents metal.

Now I know these feats are unimpressive. The only reason why I showed them is because of what im gonna do during prep.

Perks and Planning

Since the team has full knowledge and Perfect team work. My characters will work together optimally and will devise a strategy that is optimal against your team.

Kars will fly into the air along with Scar and Sing. Carrying them both. He can then use his eye sight to locate your team, after locating your team Sing and Kars will use ranged attacks to whittle yours down over time and eventually pull out a win. Scar is back pocket just in case.

Scar should be able to react to almost every attack your team can do from my knowledge of them.

Furthermore, Sing's DC is no joke. he can fire Buddha Palms at your team which will for sure leave a mark. And multiple would result in a KO or death and that is assuming your entire team is at the limits of the tourney in durability which I doubt.

Buddha Palms would also logically be able to deflect most attacks fired at my team. So it can also serve as a shield too.

The reason why my team is going to go airborne is because only one person in your entire team who can actually hit airborne targets at a distance high up in the air is Iron Man. Edward might be able to fling things like rocks with alchemy but that does nothing to my team. Luther can only throw things to hurt my team but Kars regen and Sing reaction negs that.

If the fight ever goes close combat, which my team can initiate at any time due to having the teleporter perk. Kars can also use Hamon to liquify and vaporize your entire team and Sing is too strong there too. Scar unlike Edward has the correct morals to use deconstruction to kill your team.

Note that Hamon can be channeled through objects such as metal and even spaghetti . This means it can channel through the weapons of your characters and then fry your team. It should go through Ironman's armor to fry the human level Tony Stark too. Note that Kars can also enhance his weapons with Hamon the same way Joseph enhanced soft cooked spaghetti to pierce through glass like in the clip. So he would also be able to slice clean through Iron Man's armor with his light blade from what I believe from his feats.

I don't know if your team has the correct senses but both Sing and Kars can sense the invisible edward, idk if your team can sense the invisible scar.

Conclusion

Essentially speaking, my 2/3 of my team has solid statistics in speed and power. They have feats that unambiguously put them as being able to react to a very quick event after it happens. None of my feats displayed are aim dodging or have context which degrades them.

They also have really good hax, particularly with Kars and Scar. Both of which have one shot power. Luther has some pseudo-regen feats but even he can get KO'd or put out of the fight against that hax. Sing in particular with raw DC should be able to one shot a good chunk of your team too.

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Luther Strode | The Man With Many Strange "Talents"

"I know how to kill these men. I know that I could dance between the bullets. I know that they are all just meat for the butcher's block"

Miscellaneous info:

This is just a quick segment which I want to make clarified to the following readers and to my opponent, the franchise of Luther Strode has a grand total of 3 books and all of em are an establishment of Mr. Strodes growth as both a character and with his abilities, if that hasn't cleared it up he gets progressively stronger throughout all three and with each one there is a 5-year timeskip. With a little discussion with ET and other LS debaters it was agreed upon an allowed that I would be allowed up to book 2 and prior.

No Caption Provided

Little tip of, I'll just post all three here in order from beginning to the last book. As said above I'll be using versions from up to book 2 and below.

  • The Strange Talent of Strode - B1
  • The Legend of Strode - B2
  • The Legacy of Strode - B3

Alright, think that's enough of these charades let's dive into the meat ;)

Speed:

First things first let's discuss speed. It is well established that "method" users in the LSverse are easily casual bullet timers able to dodge gunfire, wipe out hoards of lads at reaping FTE speeds and Mr. Strode is most certainly no exception being a method user himself and one of the most talented in fact. Even when he was still a rookie relatively speaking in book #1 Strange Talents of Strode he went toe to toe with the Librarian in combat. Librarian is also a method user an a long time one at that.

Strange Talent of Strode Issue #6 Page#21-22
Strange Talent of Strode Issue #6 Page#21-22

The Librarian is able to easily dodge a bullet fired from a .357 magnum handgun at near point blank range after it was fired whilst even appearing to be daydreaming an more so bothered about other things, this looks to be more than several meters apart more or less but it's close enough. Now typically speaking magnums gun speed can vary depending on the mass/type of the bullet, going based of a quick google search they can range anywhere from 380 m/s - 520 m/s.

Strange Talent of Strode Issue #5 Page #16
Strange Talent of Strode Issue #5 Page #16

With this in mind and considering the distance it would make this a pretty solid high mach 1 - mach 2 feat, tbh one could argue this being within the higher end spectrum of mach 2 but alas it fits comfortably, Strode was able to match blow for blow with this man, countering attacks, parrying, getting in grapples and all the sort so he def scales to this.

Think that should cover reactionary/ like speeds and should prove that Luther can handle lads just fine in this tourney, this ain't even taking into account that this is Strange Strode, by book #2(which is what I've been told by the OP I'm allowed up to) Legend Strode went through a time-skip and got noticeably stronger in his capabilities and further honing his abilities. But to top it of I'll quickly glimpse over one more speed feat in case one would make arguments towards heavy suppressive fire. After the timeskip his abilities improved noticeably an here we see him being able to easily weave through suppressive fire and reach to the pimp in seconds after.

Legend of Strode Issue #1 Page #16
Legend of Strode Issue #1 Page #16

Another casual bullet timer level feat, alright this should be enough of an establishment for now but if need be I can pull more material to further hammer down this department. Should prove if nothing else that Mr. Strode is certainly no slouch when it comes to speed.

Strength/Durability/DC:

Now onto the next segment, Luther boasts some rather impressive raw strength, capable of tearing through hoards of human fodder like a hot knife cutting right through butter. He outright slashes right through em with nothing more than with his bare hands, splitting them in half. It's also worth noting that Luther is a character that "doesn't pull his punches" an always goes straight for the kill, these levels of attacks would absolutely shrek characters like Daredevil or Batman. Another a display of good bullet timing speed as a side note.

Legend of Strode Issue #2 Page #12-13
Legend of Strode Issue #2 Page #12-13

Mr. Strode should also scale to the Librarian, now he in terms of pure striking is capable of busting right through a air pressure tight steel door on a cargo ship with his bare hands. Now typically these doors are designed to withstand pressure from the water depths so for him to bust through would exhibit around 4-6 tons, Luther was capable of matching him this would place them both within that tonner spectrum at the worst an I say that excruciatingly as Luther grows throughout the timeskips just speaks volumes on his true talents.

Strange Talent of Strode Issue #1 Page #19-20
Strange Talent of Strode Issue #1 Page #19-20

To finally end this segment for his durability and raw DC I'll quickly cover in one feat, his fight against the Libarian ended up busting this storage building they were in. Both of em boasted both in tanking and power output however were injured which puts em on the absolute cap for this tourneys DC and Durability of house busting.

Strange Talent of Strode Issue #22-23

Neitherless, Luther is one durable boi who his actions speak louder than words of his talents.

Method Powers: Body Move-Reading/Super Senses & Awareness/HF

Those who've learned from the method book are granted supernatural abilities beyond just great strength or agility which I'll quickly go over here an establish what Mr. Strode can do.

First things first and this is probab one of his most powerful abilities aside from his HF is Body Move-Reading which is just exactly as it says, allows the user to perceive, see and read the opponents potential actions before they even do it similar to the likes of DC characters Cassandra Cain but if it was on steroids basically. The very first example when he was just starting to learn from the book he could body-read one possible prediction an some time after he could body-read numerous outcomes. Something to make clear though this is when he is just learning thus we are introduced to the ability.

Strange Talent of Strode Issue #1 Page #11-12 & 18

By the end of his training he could effectively use this ability against the Librarian, an it is established that this is a passive ability that all method users use as Librarian we was untouchable to Luther prior cause his training was incomplete an the latter can use body-reading passively at all times thus is why the artists stop drawing the blue lines as much after his fight with Librarian as Luther has now mastered the ability.

Strange Talent of Strode Issue #6 Page #16
Strange Talent of Strode Issue #6 Page #16

So yeah, this ability of Luthers combined with his already impressive speed is going to be an extremely dangerous opponent to go up against as he'll be able to body-read numerous possibilities your character would make, this will allow Luther to predict, counter and avoid any nasty-nasties your characters may bring and strike for the kill. A very very useful ability not only for himself but for his teammates as well which I'll elaborate.

Aside from his insane body-reading he boasts a rather potent an strong HF. After withstanding countless blows, stabs an injures from his fight against both Jack and The Binder he's healing factor repaired him in just the next comic. His endurance is also pretty nuts as well so it'll take at lot to put this beasty down.

Legend of Strode Issue #5 Page #18
Legend of Strode Issue #5 Page #18

As shown machine gun wounds, knife wounds, broken bones an the lot aren't enough to put him down as he's able to regenerate very quickly, so combined with his durability he'll be one hell of a pain for any team to take down. This and the feats above shown demonstrate on top of his HF that Luthers endurance is nothing short of but incredible which can be very important as perseverance can make or break most fights when it comes to stamina or being able to fight with severe or even fatal wounds.

Legend of Strode Issue 2# Page #21-23, Issue #3 Page #5
Legend of Strode Issue 2# Page #21-23, Issue #3 Page #5

Finally to end this of, Luther can sense, smell and hear sounds, organs and flesh from miles away. It is an ability method users have used to detect an counter stealth attacks. Mr. Strode has used this ability to pin point civilians hiding in the mall by listening to there heartbeats. A niche but very handy ability for hard-countering those with camouflage or other various means of cloaking. It's even been stated that method users can fight blind by using there other various senses.

Legend of Strode Issue #2 Page 9, Issue #6 Page #3

Overall one hell of a force to be reckoned with.

Edward Elric | The State Alchemist

"Get up you novice, I'm about to show you how outclassed you really are"

Alchemy:

Alright, now this is without a doubt the most important aspect for Edward Elric and is the primary power system for the FMAverse. It's pretty much there version of magic that allows them to bend the scientific laws to create or destroy material. These are reconstruction and deconstruction. It's basically street tier hax offering the ultimate best forms of offense and defence, Edward is one of the best alchemist in the series. He can use alchemy without making a transmutation circle. Alchemy is not without limits though as aside from imagination there must be an equivalent exchange as explained below.

FMA Chapter #1 Page #26
FMA Chapter #1 Page #26

Alchemy comes with a lot of utility and for construction, Edward can manipulate the very environment around him and can nigh-instantly create numerous ranged attacks from all omnidirections to attack his opponents.

Can create weapons right on the fly with construction alchemy. All that Edward needs is a little bit of ground or material of some form to work with and boom he can create anything from spears, guns, swords and all sorts of constructs. With this sheer utility he can aid his allies by arming them with weapons for either CQC or for longer distances, a somewhat simple but very powerful ability especially in street tiers.

Though one of Ed's go to's is to create an arm blade from his automail for CQC combat. As shown in his physical section it can withstand sheer pressure of a Chimera Lions bit so this can for sure leave scars on whoever's on the other side of this bladed weapon, it's even stated that Edward can actually further hardon his automail arm with similar atoms to that of Greed's carbon shield.

FMA Chapter #2 Page #27-30

Further environmental manipulation, crowd control and aggro barrage of attacks Ed can create giant walls to block an control his enemies movements great for defence measures an separation.

Ed's not afraid either of going offense by utilising alchemy to create barrages upon barrages of spikes, he's utilised deconstruction alchemy to.

So as far as both offence and defence is concerned Ed can cover himself pretty solidly in both categories. Since he can unleash long ranged projectiles to deal with enemies from a distance or for close range distance to.

Speed/Agility/Reactions:

Edward boasts some rather impressive speeds, especially as he progresses throughout the series an growing stronger with experience and through obtaining a new automail arm which I'll cover right here. To establish first things first, Edward reacts to the Priests machine gunfire "before" the bullets were fired by putting a wall up. This is probab one of his most famous feats and puts his reactions at comfortable bullet timing speeds.

FMA Chapter #2 Page #8-9

Now something to not here is this was Edward at the start of the series and before the upgrade of his automail arm, once he did his speed and agility went up significantly an that of which I'll get into in a bit. Ed's combat speed also matches up to his reactions.

Edward holds his ground against the failed Bradley soldiers, whome whilst obviously aren't on the same level as the genuine article should still be relative to supersonic+ speeds as they've shown to be capable of dodging Riza Hawkeye's gunfire an whilst one did graze considering she's an expert marksman of the military this should still make for a bullet timing speed.

So precise to say Ed is certainly no slouch when it comes to speed.

Physique Miscellaneous:

Won't dabble much here since it ain't very much that important for him, but I'll just post some showings to show of his nigh-peak human physicals and automail arm.

Chapter #1 Page #52-53

A chimera lion bits straight into Edwards automail arm, withstanding it completely and proceeds to send the lion flying with a kick. A Good display of durability for the arm and should proof enough that it can withstand your typical bullet rounds,.

Can tank being smashed through a wall.

Tony Stark. aka Iron Man | The Iron Avenger

"I am Iron Man"

Speed/Flight/Reactions:

The IM suits are capable of supersonic speed flight and can enter into said speeds in an near instant, now technically the suits could achieve hypersonic but since ET has limited the speeds to mach 3 this is pretty much the utmost cap for IM's travel speed in this tourney.

Suits are pretty damn fast, they can go from the ground to 100s of feet in the matter of seconds so choosing to keep distance from enemies is easy for him and he can be just as devastating when bullrushing against them..

The suits haven't just proven to be fast in travel, even the MKII armours been capable of dodging a shot from the tank which would make for a very impressive perception speed feat. Doing a quick google search tank shells speed can vary depending on the tank as shown below ranges anywhere from 472 m/s to 1,750 m/s and now given the latter would deliberately put him over limits and that is very unlikely given characters with supersonic+ reactions have tagged him it's more likely in the middle.

No Caption Provided

So this is anywhere from a mach 1-2 perceptions speed feat, an whilst he ain't gonna be exactly tangling with fighters with such levels in combat speed it should least be evident enough to say he can hold his ground, can leave his HUD to cover his back.

Durability:

All IM suits are bullet proof, few examples (1, 2).

IM suit has been able to tank the shell gun shot from a tank, falling from probab 100s of feet in the air and crashing down into the ground creating a small crater and pulls himself up. Placing his durability at the very cap of this tourney.

Not much else to say here other than IM suits are very sturdy and are capable of tanking a lot of punishment.

Firepower & Artillery:

Repulsor Blasts and Unibeams

all standard IM suits come with your typical repulsor blasters that can be used for close to mid range combat, these repulsor blasters have feats of sending fodder armed soldiers flying through walls and into the air. With a little more additional charge a unibeam of his can obliterate the WS's bionic metal arm.

His repulsor & unibeams are pretty strong depending on how much energy output he puts into them, his more charged beams are strong enough to even blast back and knock down Iron Monger even despite shortly moments after Jarvis stating the suit was only at 15% power, this model used was obv sub-optimal given the circumstances so it'd speak volumes on what a fresh, standard suit could do.

Missiles/Homing Rockets

The Anti-Tank busting missile Tony first displays in his showdown against terrorists when he busted a tank with one, this is pretty much the cap of DC for this tourney as any missile that can flat out tank bust would most certainly be house busting tier to.

He's used arm-missiles before in CQC against Bucky Barnes and to blow up the vault hinges caving them all in. Whilst IC he probab won't be using these this aggressive it's still a testament to his arsenal an with full knowledge on how strong his opponents are more likely he won't be pulling his punches either.

There are also the shoulder mini-missiles, not quite as powerful as the singular anti-tank busting one above but in exchange numerous can be fired in rapid succession and are strong enough to bust up airplanes, vehicles and the sort. One on it's own won't pose much of a threat but a sheer number certainly could.

Miscellaneous

He also has EMP tech to use on hand at any given point an time, very effective for yeeting away any usefulness tech or machinery may be to an enemy team.

Shoulder launchers that act similar like to sniping, uses them to yeet an entire squad of armed terrorists before they could react.

Red Laser Cutters for close quarters, a laser cuts the ceiling which causes rubble to collapse and block any entry. Meaning he can give anyone third degree burns if things get dicey up close in a said scenario.

There are other means for offense but think I've covered IM's main options so I'll leave it here.

HUD/AI/Miscellaneous:

As standard with all IM suits they come built with there own heads-up-display(HUD) and a super artificial intelligence system. Nothing overly special but it does come with numerous useful tools. Gives him a detailed analyse of everything around him an basically gives him super awareness all around him. It has the ability to locate people/things from very long distances.

All interfaces come with an auto-aim targeting system which locks onto any target in his lines of sight, essentially nigh-Hawkeye AI level accuracy. They can also be used for communication, transmissions, internet and many other niche things.

Speaking of location, his suits later on have built in thermal vision an thus allows him to pick up heat signatures. Considering this is built into the interface Tony has options on dealing with stealth, camouflage or just enemies hiding by locating there heat signatures. He's even likely have done this in IM1 to quickly find terrorists. Also is a nice display of wall strength.

Anti-fight pattern counters can be put in place to find weaknesses in an opponents fight patterns, an they can even be so precise as to find weak points of an opponent.

Not much else to say here, Jarvis will aid Tony in taking the most optimal route to dealing with the enemy.

Planning/Some Pre-Counters

_ _ _ _

Alrighty so with all the grit out of the way it's time to get into the planning and first things firsts I'll go right ahead an establish the perks I've selected for my time, with them I'll go over why I have chosen these said perks and how my team will be using these perks to the utmost advantage.

Team Perks:

  • Perfect Team Work
  • Full Knowledge

Character Perks:(Both For Edward Elric)

  • Invisibility
  • Teleportation

Perfect Team Work means that everyone on my team will be co-operating everything to a tee, co-ordinating all of there attacks and abilities to prevail against the enemy. This also means no quorums or problems with Luther butchering his foes which they'll aid him in planning, any intel they can gather they will inform to the others around my team, enemy locations and many more.

Full Knowledge is self-explanatory which doesn't need an in-depth explanation, nothing will surprise my team and will know everything which combined with this other perk makes for whilst a simple but very powerful combo.

As for character perks I've invested everything into Edward Elric by giving him both Invisibility and Teleportation, with the former Ed will be completely invisible to the naked eye and thus anyone who doesn't have a means of detection via other senses or tech will be in danger to him and it further helps keeping him safe, latter perk gives an already agile Edward tons of mobility an will be able to zip and zap around the map, close distances or co-ordinate in attack patterns with IM and Luther. This'll make Edward an even more dangerous threat for any team with his street hax packing.

My team will be doing the same in being within sync an co-ordinate with eachother to find an utmost optimal route of coming out in top.

Tony Stark will scan the area and use his long range HUD to pinpoint the enemies exact location using thermal vision as a means of reading there movements an inform his allies of there location.

Our teams will enclose in with eachother, Edward will aid Luther by having him teleport as he teleports. With the aerial enemies in sight IM will bombard the skies with missiles to limit there manoeuvrability, using fight patterns and aim-bot targeting he'll nuke your team out of the sky with anti-tank level missiles which from what you've shown would one shot Scar, Sing and severely injure the Kars. Should least knock em out of the air and IM has the aerial manoeuvrability to avoid Sings buddapalms.

Now taking a look at the map it seems to be plague to the brim with tall buildings, Edward can take full advantage of these and here's how. First he'll teleport himself and Luther on top and then will with his Alchemy to help them traverse hundreds upon hundreds of feet in order to catch up to your team. Ed can also spam an fling all of these dozens of long ranged attacks to further pressure your team to further aid alonside IM's firepower. Luther can also aid in further projectile support by flinging rocks and spears directly at your team that Edward can constantly create for him using construction Alchemy.

Luther with the aid of Edward's Alchemy will traverse across the buildings, going further an further up until he gets within range and can fling himself directly towards your discombobulated team with his tremendous launching speed he did here against Jack.

IM could also just as easily enter mach 3 supersonic speeds(stated the suits can go hypersonic but since tourney cap is mach 3 he'll be going to the absolute cap here) for an insta-bullrush which I highly doubt your team will be able to react to with all the missiles, Edward's Alchemy and the flinging Luther heading your way, which means your team will be bullrushed to the ground and being dazed Tony will take advantage of this by using the full knowledge and disintegrate Kars wings with his heat red lasers.

From what I know and what you've shown Luther with his superior speed, physicals, body-move reading and regen can easily stomp all three of your team members and they don't have any counters to his precog, Edward has been proven to be Scars superior by the end of the series and was already more intelligent and creative with his alchemy not to mention latters most powerful ability is restricted here.

With this in mind I'm just gonna go over some pre-counters:

Since the team has full knowledge and Perfect team work. My characters will work together optimally and will devise a strategy that is optimal against your team.

An my team will have access to the exact same resources ;)

Kars will fly into the air along with Scar and Sing. Carrying them both. He can then use his eye sight to locate your team, after locating your team Sing and Kars will use ranged attacks to whittle yours down over time and eventually pull out a win. Scar is back pocket just in case.

One of the biggest flaws with this strat is that Scar basically becomes completely useless as he'll have no way to access construction alchemy unless if Kars flies to the buildings, which'll just put your team in an even worse position from not only IM's tank missile spam but Edward's long ranged alchemy attacks and against Luther one-shotting 2/3 of your team with a single direct punch. IM can also locate your teammates with his HUD infrared vision that he used in Civil War. Another issue here is that your assuming my team will be staying completely stationary when Edward will have teleportation to quickly zippy zappy around, Luther can easily avoid everything with his speed and body-reading and IM's manoeuvrability, Scar won't be doing much here since his deconstruction is restricted.

Scar should be able to react to almost every attack your team can do from my knowledge of them.

With Luthers body-reading combined with his speed feats against Jack The Ripper he can easily out-speed him in CQC, Edward has been stated to be faster than Scar and has blitzed Kimbleee, someone whom Scar had problems with doing despite Kimblee being rusty. Sure he was faster than Edward before his automail but after his upgrade there's no doubt he's faster than him and will be getting in more attacks.

Furthermore, Sing's DC is no joke. he can fire Buddha Palms at your team which will for sure leave a mark. And multiple would result in a KO or death and that is assuming your entire team is at the limits of the tourney in durability which I doubt.

Several things I'd wish to bring up with Sing's buddapalm technique an whilst it is certainly a force to be reckoned with it isn't without it's faults, the most obvious point being Sing has actually never shown to spam these in rapid succession to the degree of let's say Edwards Alchemy or IM's repulsor blasts so it's pretty clear these take some serious wind up time to perform, on that note he's only used it twice and both were when the Beast was at point blank range with him so your gonna have to try(which from my knowledge of KFH you can't) and prove he can for utmost certainty spam this otherwise they can be easily avoided.

No Caption Provided

On another note, taking a look at the Buddapalm's range it doesn't seem to be covering very much in length. It doesn't even cover the entirety of the building just a small portion. With full knowledge and the precog/fight pattern abilities of 2/3 of my team we will be able to easily avoid these unless if you can prove the prior points in question.

Buddha Palms would also logically be able to deflect most attacks fired at my team. So it can also serve as a shield too.

With how slow it is and how long he takes to unleash these I doubt he'll be able to deflect everything.

The reason why my team is going to go airborne is because only one person in your entire team who can actually hit airborne targets at a distance high up in the air is Iron Man. Edward might be able to fling things like rocks with alchemy but that does nothing to my team. Luther can only throw things to hurt my team but Kars regen and Sing reaction negs that.

An interesting strategy but one that ultimately ends up backfiring against you, as stated before Scar becomes useless in the air and Sings only option of attack is the Buddha Palm and as established has limitations in it's applicability. IM and Edward can attack from both close and long range(Edward with his teleportation to further enhance this) and Luther has shown to be capable of traversing long distances with his own physicals and with Edwards aid will be even easier.

If the fight ever goes close combat, which my team can initiate at any time due to having the teleporter perk. Kars can also use Hamon to liquify and vaporize your entire team and Sing is too strong there too. Scar unlike Edward has the correct morals to use deconstruction to kill your team.

This so-called Hamon doesn't appear to be a passive ability and something that he himself needs to initiate, Luther can easily out-speed him with his superior speed and precog, Edward can spam constant ranged alchemy so you'd have to proof he can react to all of that coming his way or IM can just blow him to kingdom come with tank missiles which would leave a serious mark to say the least. From what you've shown Luther can kill Sing in CQC since he has no outs to precog and he hasn't ever faced an opponent that's completely invisible either like Edward so he'll have an even tougher time against him. Scar has looser morals yes but at the expense of inferior physicals(particularly speed) and creativity with Alchemy, deconstruction would be devastating but is a none factor here which leaves us with Edward having clear cut advantages over him.

Note that Hamon can be channeled through objects such as metal and even spaghetti . This means it can channel through the weapons of your characters and then fry your team. It should go through Ironman's armor to fry the human level Tony Stark too. Note that Kars can also enhance his weapons with Hamon the same way Joseph enhanced soft cooked spaghetti to pierce through glass like in the clip. So he would also be able to slice clean through Iron Man's armor with his light blade from what I believe from his feats.

Refer to my comments above, IM's Civil War suit(his weakest suit) was capable of withstanding Vibranium piercing attacks from Cap's shield and even he couldn't slice him through so he should be sturdy enough to tank this. Regardless our team will have full knowledge and will exactly know how to approach this.

I don't know if your team has the correct senses but both Sing and Kars can sense the invisible edward, idk if your team can sense the invisible scar.

2/3 of my team can sense invisible. Luther refer to my comments above but TL;DR can fight blind through smell and detection of organs. IM suits have HUD thermal vision which he can fall back on and fight through your invisibility. Edward admittedly doesn't but he is also invisible and also has teleportation which will make it even harder for our team to fight him since neither of them have fought an invisible opponent. With full knowledge+perfect team work Tony and Luther will co-ordinate with Edward to strike at the exact point and time, he'll be able to put 2 & 2 together to figure out opponents are invisible and that are fighting with the other 2 will know where & when to strike.

Scar and Edward both have invisibility so I think we can both agree they'll be basically ignoring each other for most of this fight.

Conclusion/TL;DR

Overall I think I've established that my team packs one hell of a punch. Boasting solid hax of Edward's alchemy and Strodes body-move reading, sheer firepower from Tony's suit+Edward & Strodes alchemy projectiles to seriously hurt if not KO Kars and the physical might to match and overwhelm the opposing team.

  • Our team has full knowledge+perfect team work so we'll know everyone on your team and with the latter will be an absolute sync. Allowing for our team to co-ordinate, strategize and plan for the best course of action to take in order to triumph.
  • Invisibility+teleportation will make the Edward Elric that much more difficult for your team to deal with, you need to proof Sing and Kars have experience fighting an invisible opponent up-close.
  • Tony will be spamming AoE tank missiles to bombard the sky from all omnidirections. His firepower should be enough to simply blow Kars into kingdom come and out of the air with tank level explosions.
  • Edwards spam to raining fire alchemy projectiles and Luther hurdling projectiles & spears directly at your team to further pressure them to the ground
  • With IM's flight manoeuvrability and knowledge he'll be able to avoid the slow-winding up Buddha Palms from Sing, his travel speed is so great it opens up windows for bullrushing, completely countering your aerial strat, dazing ya team which will leave them open to an frontal assault
  • Luther Strode's regeneration an endurance will be more than enough to power through almost any attack with ease and with his body-move reading will know every action your team will make.

I'll leave it at this for now, saving the real juice for later on.

No Caption Provided

That's all from me, now this is where the real fun begins ;)

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Post #2

A Comparison of Speed: Luther Strode

Speed:

First things first let's discuss speed. It is well established that "method" users in the LSverse are easily casual bullet timers able to dodge gunfire, wipe out hoards of lads at reaping FTE speeds and Mr. Strode is most certainly no exception being a method user himself and one of the most talented in fact. Even when he was still a rookie relatively speaking in book #1 Strange Talents of Strode he went toe to toe with the Librarian in combat. Librarian is also a method user an a long time one at that.

I see. I am a bit skeptical though since there was a statement by one of the writers that Luther with pure speed can't actually dodge a bullet at point blank range unless he inferences with reading body language skill. I will still look at your feats and compare them to my character.

The Librarian is able to easily dodge a bullet fired from a .357 magnum handgun at near point blank range after it was fired whilst even appearing to be daydreaming an more so bothered about other things, this looks to be more than several meters apart more or less but it's close enough. Now typically speaking magnums gun speed can vary depending on the mass/type of the bullet, going based of a quick google search they can range anywhere from 380 m/s - 520 m/s.

Ok so let us look at the feat: (I am going to paste the links and not the actual images to not clog my posts)

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11128/111289255/7917139-issue%235page%2316.jpg

You are right in saying that it is several meters apart, and although this feat is impressive for the common street leveler, it pales in comparison to what my team can do. Let us be very generous and assume the bullet was travelling at the high end of 520m/s.

Now look at The Beast's feat: https://youtu.be/GMQSJ9x9fMc?t=146

If we assume the ultra lowball of 180m/s for the Beast's gun (It is ultra lowball because modern articles put the gun at 190m/s, but im lowballing to 180m/s for the sake of argument). You can see that the distance is literally point blank. In fact, I would say it is like around 9 times less distance than your feat.

I will remind everyone one more time, the impressiveness of projectile reacting feats is also dependent on the distance it is dodged at. Dodging a bullet 1 meter away is twice as impressive as dodging the same bullet 2 meters away etc.

Your gun if we high ball is less than 3 times as fast as The Beast's gun. But the Beast's gun was fired like at 9 times less distance. This puts The Beast's feat at 3 times more impressive than your gun. This is me lowballing The Beast's own gun and highballing your gun btw. Furthermore, catching a bullet is > dodging a bullet. If someone threw a marble at you it is easier to dodge it than catch it. Dodging requires more precision to be honest.

If we are being fair, both guns would be lowballed but im doing this for the sake of argument.

But here is the thing though... I didn't actually stop there with my post. I only used The Beast's bullet catching feat to measure his movement speed , not his actual reaction and combat speed which is higher since the bullet catch was in a non serious combat scenario.

The Beast's combat speed is actually higher than that. I calculated the Beast's speed of movement as above mach 2.8 . Sing reacts to The Beast's mach 2.8 movement (Again, this is a serious lowball) at close quarter range

Now this puts him at far above what your Librarian feat shows.

1. Sing is reacting to Mach 2.8 attacks. Your gun is at most Mach 1.51 if we go by the highball of 520m/s which would be unfair but im gonna do it for sake of argument.

2. Sing reacting to actual martial arts attacks is much harder than reacting to a projectile which is going to be fired from a gun which you can already see. The Librarian already saw the direction the gun was pointing at, so it is much much easier to dodge and react to, since you already know the direction of the bullet and which way to dodge. All that is left is reacting to the bullet coming out. Sing on the other hand was fighting a martial artist, and so the martial artist's attacks are less predictable. Its not like a gun where you know the direction of the bullet by looking at the direction of the barrel.

3. The distance he is reacting at on top of that is several times shorter than the Librarian feat.

Now Kars also has a bigger speed feat too. He reacts to rounds from actual plane machine guns at similar distances from multiple angles after they were fired. These machine guns would be faster than Mach 2 (Since airplane mounted guns would be that fast , think about how even assault rifles meant to be carried by humans are already mach 2 and this is a gun for planes) and Kars blocked them from multiple directions all at once.

I will admit though that Scar is a little bit on the slower end of speed for my team, but him outspeeding Early series Edward and Alphonse at the same time (Edward can do the minigun feat and Alphonse scales to Edward since they regularly spar) should put him a speed level which can rival Luther.

With this in mind and considering the distance it would make this a pretty solid high mach 1 - mach 2 feat, tbh one could argue this being within the higher end spectrum of mach 2 but alas it fits comfortably, Strode was able to match blow for blow with this man, countering attacks, parrying, getting in grapples and all the sort so he def scales to this.

Understand that this pales in comparison to Sing and Kars.

Think that should cover reactionary/ like speeds and should prove that Luther can handle lads just fine in this tourney, this ain't even taking into account that this is Strange Strode, by book #2(which is what I've been told by the OP I'm allowed up to) Legend Strode went through a time-skip and got noticeably stronger in his capabilities and further honing his abilities. But to top it of I'll quickly glimpse over one more speed feat in case one would make arguments towards heavy suppressive fire. After the timeskip his abilities improved noticeably an here we see him being able to easily weave through suppressive fire and reach to the pimp in seconds after.

Alright let me look at the feat

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11128/111289255/7917176-issue%231page%2317.jpg

Ok this image is a bit too low definition, I will paste a more high definition one:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11120/111207460/4897078-0736147898-rsz_3.png

I will now post the same image but annotated by me with red circles

No Caption Provided

The earnest is on you to prove that this is a legitimate feat where Luther avoids bullets on reaction since it is your character and you were the one who first provided this scan.

Now that being said, I will provide arguments against this feat.

As you can see on the first panel up top Luther is actually inside the room, you can see his legs. He then begins moving on the 2nd panel. Note that this has to be an aim dodge feat unlike the actual true reaction dodge feat that the Librarian did. The reason I deduce this is that if you look at the yellow sparks, there are some on the walls.

What I am trying to say is, is that the people shooting at Luther are prostitutes, and they do not really have the best aim. If they actually could aim, they would have hit Luther. The yellow sparks on the wall prove this. Those are bullets hitting the wall behind Luther. They just missed. If they were actually aimed at Luther, he would have been hit since he is in front of the wall.

Furthermore, my image is annotated with 2 bullets circled in red, they appear to be behind Luther as well. Meaning this is pretty much mostly an aim dodge feat.

Even if we take the feat seriously, it is important to note that the vast majority of the women are carrying pistols which are not impressive to dodge at this distance. It is also ambiguous whether the people who actually carry rifles were even aiming properly at Luther at all.

Overall compared to the Librarian feat this is actually less impressive, the Librarian feat was unambiguous, we have a panel where a gun was pointed at him, a panel where the gun was fired but the Librarian hasn't moved yet, then a panel where he dodges the flying bullet. Unambiguous.

Due to the nature of the feat and the reasons I lay out, I think there is too much evidence for skepticism to take this feat as anything impressive.

Note that there is also bits and pieces of the comic which support my view as well

Jack the Ripper who I would say is actually faster than Luther in Book 2 has been tagged and knocked back by handguns. Note that when an actual competent person who can aim uses handguns, it can actually tag method users. And you cannot claim he wasn't looking since the bullet came in the same direction as he was facing in the previous panel.

Note that Jack was able to in terms of speed really flex on Luther

There are also times that Luther has been tagged by bullets as well.

1) He gets tagged by a pistol on the shoulder

2) Gets tagged in the legs even at long range.

Note, that this is actually Book 3 Luther, so he should be more competent than the version you are using here. Note, that when people are actually competent in using fire arms and are actually able to at least aim their shots so that they travel in the direction of Luther's body. He can get tagged.

All of this evidence leads me to believe, that the feat you showed of heavy gunfire was aim dodging. The Librarian feat is legitimate but revolver fire from that range is not that impressive. And the reason why the feat is even mediocre and not trash is because I was generous to highball the revolver speed to 520m/s. Something that realistically nobody should do.

Another casual bullet timer level feat, alright this should be enough of an establishment for now but if need be I can pull more material to further hammer down this department. Should prove if nothing else that Mr. Strode is certainly no slouch when it comes to speed.

This is very liberal use of the word casual. I would say Luther in that panel was less casual than Sing fighting The Beast. The way he is drawn makes it look like he is out for blood.

What I will agree with though is that Mr Strode is no slouch in speed compared to the typical street leveler. What I will argue is that compared to my team he is pretty trash.

A Comparison of Damage Capability and Capacity to Take Damage: Luther Strode

Now onto the next segment, Luther boasts some rather impressive raw strength, capable of tearing through hoards of human fodder like a hot knife cutting right through butter. He outright slashes right through em with nothing more than with his bare hands, splitting them in half. It's also worth noting that Luther is a character that "doesn't pull his punches" an always goes straight for the kill, these levels of attacks would absolutely shrek characters like Daredevil or Batman. Another a display of good bullet timing speed as a side note.

Alright let me look at these feats. But at first glance your description of tearing through fodder is not impressive since fodder is fodder.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11128/111289255/7917279-issue%232page%2312and13.jpg

So again, this is obviously an aim dodging feat. He was just too fast for them to get a clean hit. After all, these are just regular humans. This is not unambiguous like the Librarian feat where I will remind there is a panel where the gun is aimed but not fired, a panel where the gun is fired where Librarian doesn't move, then a panel where he moves out of the way of the bullet.

Now as for cutting through human fodder, it is cutting through human fodder. I don't really have to say anything else.

Mr. Strode should also scale to the Librarian, now he in terms of pure striking is capable of busting right through a air pressure tight steel door on a cargo ship with his bare hands. Now typically these doors are designed to withstand pressure from the water depths so for him to bust through would exhibit around 4-6 tons, Luther was capable of matching him this would place them both within that tonner spectrum at the worst an I say that excruciatingly as Luther grows throughout the timeskips just speaks volumes on his true talents.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11128/111289255/7917289-9334615902-JojzJjoH.jpg

Trash compared to Sing and Kars. Ive already shown that Kars can slice clean through Stroheim's steel hull and Sing just walks over this feat. I will say though that Scar has tanked Gluttony's attack which is similar to this and he was fine, and Scar is not really picked for his durability.

To finally end this segment for his durability and raw DC I'll quickly cover in one feat, his fight against the Libarian ended up busting this storage building they were in. Both of em boasted both in tanking and power output however were injured which puts em on the absolute cap for this tourneys DC and Durability of house busting.

Ok now I believe this is a little bit of an exaggeration.

First off, the pair were fighting for a long time and they don't display any of this DC or durability which you have claimed.

Sift through these scans in the warehouse fight and find me one feat which supports your Tourney cap statements. You won't be able to.

Secondly, the timeframe between the warehouse being in stable condition and the warehouse being destroyed is ambiguous. Let us look at the scans again in more detail

1) Warehouse is fine, cops aren't there yet

2) Cops come, warehouse than explodes.

I have so many issues with your arguments that is hard to find where to start. But I will try my best to list them

Reason 1. The warehouse was not like destroyed in one attack or one clash. If you assume this is the case which it is not it is an outlier, since every other scan I have posted in the same warehouse fight show feats hilariously below that.

Reason 2. The time period between the warehouse being stable in the first scan and the warehouse being destroyed after the cops come in the second scan is most likely not short. The cops have not arrived yet in the first scan. If you assume that the time in between the warehouse being displayed as stable and the warehouse collapsing is very short. And not something like a couple of minutes since that is kind of the typical response time for police. That is an assumption that you have to prove since this is your scan. Even if we both assume this is the case, it is an outlier for the reasons I have already said.

Reason 3. Even if we assume the time period between the 2 scans is short, and we accept the feat and ignore it being an outlier as proven by previous pages. The previous pages themselves show the warehouse, especially the beams and pillars which support its structure being destroyed one at a time throughout the course of the fight. This means that even if we make this plethora of generous unproven assumptions, the feat still is not that impressive.

Reason 4. Even if we go balls to the wall and make all these very generous, and flat out wrong assumptions, and we ignore the previous scans and assume the warehouse was just destroyed all at once. It is still not impressive at all in terms of damage per second.

If we have a character that is at the tourney limits of strength that is mach 2, and a character with the same strength but is mach 1. The mach 2 character can dish out more damage in the same time frame since his attacks do the same damage in one burst, but he can just do it faster.

Since the speed of Luther is not that impressive from the arguments I have posted, his overall "damage per second" is also low if we make all these ridiculous assumptions. Sing is both fast as heck and is at tourney limits with one burst for example.

An Analysis on Abilities: Luther Strode

Method Powers: Body Move-Reading/Super Senses & Awareness/HF

Those who've learned from the method book are granted supernatural abilities beyond just great strength or agility which I'll quickly go over here an establish what Mr. Strode can do.

Ok let me take a look at the scans

Those who've learned from the method book are granted supernatural abilities beyond just great strength or agility which I'll quickly go over here an establish what Mr. Strode can do.

First things first and this is probab one of his most powerful abilities aside from his HF is Body Move-Reading which is just exactly as it says, allows the user to perceive, see and read the opponents potential actions before they even do it similar to the likes of DC characters Cassandra Cain but if it was on steroids basically. The very first example when he was just starting to learn from the book he could body-read one possible prediction an some time after he could body-read numerous outcomes. Something to make clear though this is when he is just learning thus we are introduced to the ability.

.

Strange Talent of Strode Issue #1 Page #11-12 & 18

By the end of his training he could effectively use this ability against the Librarian, an it is established that this is a passive ability that all method users use as Librarian we was untouchable to Luther prior cause his training was incomplete an the latter can use body-reading passively at all times thus is why the artists stop drawing the blue lines as much after his fight with Librarian as Luther has now mastered the ability.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11128/111289255/7917329-issue%236page%2316.jpg

Note that this is actually pseudo precog , it is not actually hard precog as explained by one of the authors.

No Caption Provided

He can only see all the possible moves , but he has to calculate which one is most likely. This is why initially he couldn't read the Librarian , its because it is just pseudo precog. If he is against someone with vastly higher statistics he won't be able to use this practically. Its just too fast and unless you have actual hard precog where you know 100% what your opponent is going to do, it makes negligible difference.

Even against the Librarian, when he actually is able to "see" and pseudo precog him. He still gets tagged by the Librarian and they have a decent fight. And Kars and Sing are hilariously above that. It only tells him the possibilities but he has to guess which possibility is the one that is going to be picked.

Furthermore, body reading doesn't really work on Alchemy for obvious reasons you should know since you are debating an FMA character.

So yeah, this ability of Luthers combined with his already impressive speed is going to be an extremely dangerous opponent to go up against as he'll be able to body-read numerous possibilities your character would make, this will allow Luther to predict, counter and avoid any nasty-nasties your characters may bring and strike for the kill. A very very useful ability not only for himself but for his teammates as well which I'll elaborate.

You are exaggerating here. It allows him to see possibilities, but not the exact option the opponent chooses. Which makes it negligible against people who outstat him.

Aside from his insane body-reading he boasts a rather potent an strong HF. After withstanding countless blows, stabs an injures from his fight against both Jack and The Binder he's healing factor repaired him in just the next comic. His endurance is also pretty nuts as well so it'll take at lot to put this beasty down.

If you look at the link here you will see that the healing factor is also not that impressive. The stabs and slashes are very superficial for this tier. The cuts he sustained against jack are drawn to be very shallow and it didn't seem deep enough that it accessed any arteries which would result in more explosive blood loss. Even then the healing wasn't even that fast since the symbol Jack carved on his torso was present for quite a bit of pages before it managed to heal.

This regen is so negligible that it might as well be non existent if I am being honest.

As shown machine gun wounds, knife wounds, broken bones an the lot aren't enough to put him down as he's able to regenerate very quickly, so combined with his durability he'll be one hell of a pain for any team to take down. This and the feats above shown demonstrate on top of his HF that Luthers endurance is nothing short of but incredible which can be very important as perseverance can make or break most fights when it comes to stamina or being able to fight with severe or even fatal wounds.

Very negligible given that I have debunked your tourney cap durability statement. Kars has better regen due to his volcano feat. And although my other members have 0 regen, in a one on one they would be able to maul Luther. Especially Sing.

And again, healing from bullet holes in a couple of panels is not that big of a deal.

Finally to end this of, Luther can sense, smell and hear sounds, organs and flesh from miles away. It is an ability method users have used to detect an counter stealth attacks. Mr. Strode has used this ability to pin point civilians hiding in the mall by listening to there heartbeats. A niche but very handy ability for hard-countering those with camouflage or other various means of cloaking.

Saying that it hard counters is an exaggeration. The cloaked person will still actually have an advantage over you. Especially when Luther is CQC character. Listening to heartbeats only allows you to pinpoint the location of their heart. But you won't be able to see the rest of their body. If he was fighting an invisible martial artist, he won't be able to see the person's kicks or the direction they are aimed at to react properly. Meaning he is at a hard disadvantage regardless.

It's even been stated that method users can fight blind by using there other various senses.

This is not the exact statement made by the librarian. The librarian said that using various senses such as hearing and smelling, Luther should be able to find him. This does not mean one can actually realistically fight as though they are not at a disadvantage while blind.

If you can't see where your opponent's kicks and punches are aimed at, and only know their position through knowing the location of their heart. How on earth are you going to be able to react to their attacks?

Legend of Strode Issue #2 Page 9, Issue #6 Page #3

Overall one hell of a force to be reckoned with.

These feats are not what you claim. You claimed that he can sense people from miles away. Show me the context and evidence for this claim.

An Analysis on Abilities: Edward Elric

I am not going to lie, I really don't think any of your claims are technically wrong in this section of your post. I will make one comment though

Alchemy comes with a lot of utility and for construction, Edward can manipulate the very environment around him and can nigh-instantly create numerous ranged attacks from all omnidirections to attack his opponents.

Since Scar in the scan is able to react to these alchemy attacks. So can every single other character on my team who has shown greater speed feats than him.

A Comparison of Speed: Edward Elric

To establish first things first, Edward reacts to the Priests machine gunfire "before" the bullets were fired by putting a wall up. This is probab one of his most famous feats and puts his reactions at comfortable bullet timing speeds.

Yeah this is the same feat I scaled Scar above.

Now something to not here is this was Edward at the start of the series and before the upgrade of his automail arm, once he did his speed and agility went up significantly an that of which I'll get into in a bit. Ed's combat speed also matches up to his reactions.

Edward holds his ground against the failed Bradley soldiers, whome whilst obviously aren't on the same level as the genuine article should still be relative to supersonic+ speeds as they've shown to be capable of dodging Riza Hawkeye's gunfire an whilst one did graze considering she's an expert marksman of the military this should still make for a bullet timing speed.

So precise to say Ed is certainly no slouch when it comes to speed.

I will admit. reacting to those soldiers is actually decent but it is no way the same level as the bullet timing feats Kars has shown, and it is nowhere near Sing's speed who can react to mach 2.8 attacks at close quarter range

Edward's Physicals

Physique Miscellaneous:

Won't dabble much here since it ain't very much that important for him, but I'll just post some showings to show of his nigh-peak human physicals and automail arm.

Chapter #1 Page #52-53

A chimera lion bits straight into Edwards automail arm, withstanding it completely and proceeds to send the lion flying with a kick. A Good display of durability for the arm and should proof enough that it can withstand your typical bullet rounds,.

Can tank being smashed through a wall.

Yeah I know its not supposed to be a big thing for FMA characters but I want to say that none of these showings put him outside of one shot attacks for Kars and Sing. He would give a good fight to Scar though.

A Comparison of Speed: Iron Man

The IM suits are capable of supersonic speed flight and can enter into said speeds in an near instant, now technically the suits could achieve hypersonic but since ET has limited the speeds to mach 3 this is pretty much the utmost cap for IM's travel speed in this tourney.

Suits are pretty damn fast, they can go from the ground to 100s of feet in the matter of seconds so choosing to keep distance from enemies is easy for him and he can be just as devastating when bullrushing against them..

Yeah these seem like solid travel speed feats. But what matters most is combat speed.

I will say though that all of my characters can react and handily dodge or counter the bullrush since it is only Mach 1.

The suits haven't just proven to be fast in travel, even the MKII armours been capable of dodging a shot from the tank which would make for a very impressive perception speed feat. Doing a quick google search tank shells speed can vary depending on the tank as shown below ranges anywhere from 472 m/s to 1,750 m/s and now given the latter would deliberately put him over limits and that is very unlikely given characters with supersonic+ reactions have tagged him it's more likely in the middle.

Ok I knew you were going to use this feat.

Now the link is a little bit slow to load so im going to post a youtube version

Lets take the highball of 1750m/s , this puts the projectile at Mach 5.1

Now remember, the impressiveness of a character's reflexes is actually not just about the speed of the attack they dodge but the distance as well.

Dodging a mach 1 attack 1 metre away is just as impressive as dodging a mach 5 attack 5 metres away. Being fired at 5 times the distance means the time it takes to actually hit the target (aka, the window of time to react) is multiplied by 5 times.

So the distance between the tank and Tony was ludicrous. Absolutely ludicrous. It would be a lowball to say it is 10 metres away.

Meaning, this is equivalent to dodging a mach 0.51 projectile from 1 metre away. Something that is unimpressive. The librarian scan you posted for Luther is actually more impressive than this.

Of course... This is highballing your feat. Tank shells could be mach 3 and not mach 5.1 making the feat even worse. And the distance was obviously lowballed to 10 metres when it was much more.

This means that Iron Man's combat speed is the slowest by far in this match.

Doing a quick google search tank shells speed can vary depending on the tank as shown below ranges anywhere from 472 m/s to 1,750 m/s and now given the latter would deliberately put him over limits and that is very unlikely given characters with supersonic+ reactions have tagged him it's more likely in the middle.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11128/111289255/7918145-capture.jpg

I mean I agree with you. The tank shell really shouldn't be highballed to Mach 5.1, its most likely around mach 2. Meaning the feat is even worse.

So this is anywhere from a mach 1-2 perceptions speed feat, an whilst he ain't gonna be exactly tangling with fighters with such levels in combat speed it should least be evident enough to say he can hold his ground, can leave his HUD to cover his back.

Nope he gets blitzed. Distance matters. If we are playing soccer and someone kicks a ball from 10 metres away you bet its gonna be much much easier for the goalie to react to it than if the ball was kicked from 2 metres away. This is why people even dribble the ball close to the goal as possible before shooting.

A Comparison of Damage Capability and Capacity to Take Damage: Iron Man

All IM suits are bullet proof, few examples (1, 2).

Fodder to my entire team

IM suit has been able to tank the shell gun shot from a tank, falling from probab 100s of feet in the air and crashing down into the ground creating a small crater and pulls himself up. Placing his durability at the very cap of this tourney.

Not much else to say here other than IM suits are very sturdy and are capable of tanking a lot of punishment.

Now this is impressive, but the fact that he even got downed by a tank hitting him means he didn't exactly no sell or shrug it off. It obviously had some sort of effect on the armor.

All in all with these feats I am willing to believe that Scar would take some time to KO Iron Man, and wouldn't necessarily be a one shot. But Kars with his Hamon conduction and Light blade for sure is carving through this in one hit or/and fries Tony by conducting hamon through the suit. Sing Buddha Palm KO's this no problem.

Now we move on to damage:

all standard IM suits come with your typical repulsor blasters that can be used for close to mid range combat, these repulsor blasters have feats of sending fodder armed soldiers flying through walls and into the air.

Exaggeration, the first person he hits gets hit into a wall but doesn't go through it. I see no reason why Sing and Kars can't just shrug this off. Scar can flat out dodge it. Even Scar's feat of being sent into a metal container and denting it and being ok after that puts him at above the AP of these repulsors.

With a little more additional charge a unibeam of his can obliterate the WS's bionic metal arm.

I will believe that this is enough to harm Scar as long as he doesn't dodge it. But Kars and Sing will no sell this.

His repulsor & unibeams are pretty strong depending on how much energy output he puts into them, his more charged beams are strong enough to even blast back and knock down Iron Monger even despite shortly moments after Jarvis stating the suit was only at 15% power,

I want to clarify something. The gif link is slow to load so im gonna post a youtube version

The feat requires some time to charge, which he aint going to get when facing characters who could practically blitz him. Even if he gets the shot. its only feat is knocking Iron Monger into a car. Nothing suggests it can hurt any of my team realistically speaking.

You cannot even scale this attack above Iron Monger's durability since he is fine soon after

So I don't see what this proves. You can't even definitively multiply this feat several times to account for "15% power" since 15% power doesn't mean he is at 15% attack potency. It just means his "battery" is at 15%. Like how a laptop at 15% power doesn't mean it runs games at 15% speed.

I don't see how he hurts anyone in my team realistically. Its already bad that he gets blitzed. But this level of AP means nothing.

this model used was obv sub-optimal given the circumstances so it'd speak volumes on what a fresh, standard suit could do.

So show me the feats of these new suits then

The Anti-Tank busting missile Tony first displays in his showdown against terrorists when he busted a tank with one, this is pretty much the cap of DC for this tourney as any missile that can flat out tank bust would most certainly be house busting tier to.

Ok im not gonna lie I will agree that this level of DC would in fact be at the tourney cap.

That being said though the actual anti tank missile has weaknesses which make it absolutely negligible in this fight.

The first is that Ironman in general can't tag anyone on my team. They have avoided things that are several times faster

The second is that after the missile hits there is lag time until it explodes, It is around 2 seconds if you watch the gif or the same scene on youtube. That is a shit load of time and anybody that gets hit by it can easily toss it out. This is assuming they even get hit by this attack.

The third is that Sing blows it away with his buddha palm. Even if you argue it explodes when hit by the buddha palm (Why did it not explode immediately when it hit the tank then?) Sing has enough reflexes to palm it before it gets close. Since my team has full knowledge they have full knowledge of the nature of this missile and so they will deal with it accoringly.

He's used arm-missiles before in CQC against Bucky Barnes and to blow up the vault hinges caving them all in. Whilst IC he probab won't be using these this aggressive it's still a testament to his arsenal an with full knowledge on how strong his opponents are more likely he won't be pulling his punches either.

Now these instant exploding missiles would actually be non negligible. But the question is, how do any of them hit my team? If they do hit my team, how does my team not shrug it off? The explosion shown in the gif only hurts Scar who has the reflexes to dodge anyways with the teleporter.

There are also the shoulder mini-missiles, not quite as powerful as the singular anti-tank busting one above but in exchange numerous can be fired in rapid succession and are strong enough to bust up airplanes, vehicles and the sort. One on it's own won't pose much of a threat but a sheer number certainly could.

Again, Sing and Kars have actually tanked more. And every person on my team can avoid the missiles given there is even a visual cue that the missiles are going to be fired since Ironman has to open his shoulder first.

Analysis of Abilities: Iron Man

He also has EMP tech to use on hand at any given point an time, very effective for yeeting away any usefulness tech or machinery may be to an enemy team.

Needs to hit with projectile. Good luck doing that on Scar who is the only person with tech. It seems you even have to specifically hit the tech as well.

Shoulder launchers that act similar like to sniping, uses them to yeet an entire squad of armed terrorists before they could react.

Does no damage to anyone except Scar, who again like I said before reacts to it and dodges or teleports

Red Laser Cutters for close quarters, a laser cuts the ceiling which causes rubble to collapse and block any entry. Meaning he can give anyone third degree burns if things get dicey up close in a said scenario.

Kars has tanked being in lava for a bit of time. Sing has tanked terminal velocity (Watch the end of his fight with Beast). I will admit though Scar is like the glass cannon of my group but he can teleport to dodge this too.

As standard with all IM suits they come built with there own heads-up-display(HUD) and a super artificial intelligence system. Nothing overly special but it does come with numerous useful tools. Gives him a detailed analyse of everything around him an basically gives him super awareness all around him. It has the ability to locate people/things from very long distances.

Yeah Kars can do a similar thing too

All interfaces come with an auto-aim targeting system which locks onto any target in his lines of sight, essentially nigh-Hawkeye AI level accuracy. They can also be used for communication, transmissions, internet and many other niche things.

Even if this is true that doesn't mean my characters cannot avoid the attack after it is fired. Aim only counts before the shot is made

Speaking of location, his suits later on have built in thermal vision an thus allows him to pick up heat signatures. Considering this is built into the interface Tony has options on dealing with stealth, camouflage or just enemies hiding by locating there heat signatures. He's even likely have done this in IM1 to quickly find terrorists. Also is a nice display of wall strength.

I want to comment that although I do not dispute the authenticity of this ability. I want to say that Tony is the only one who can properly see Scar, and he does not have the speed to react to him.

Anti-fight pattern counters can be put in place to find weaknesses in an opponents fight patterns, an they can even be so precise as to find weak points of an opponent.

Not much else to say here, Jarvis will aid Tony in taking the most optimal route to dealing with the enemy.

This has limits

In this video it shows that after Cap is able to mount him the countermeasures to fight patterns become mute. As he is in a situation too disadvantageous for the fight pattern reading to matter.

That being said, this ability in of itself does not increase his reaction speed or stats. Meaning he still gets blitzed all the same.

Plan Counters

Alrighty so with all the grit out of the way it's time to get into the planning and first things firsts I'll go right ahead an establish the perks I've selected for my time, with them I'll go over why I have chosen these said perks and how my team will be using these perks to the utmost advantage.

Team Perks:

  • Perfect Team Work
  • Full Knowledge

Character Perks:(Both For Edward Elric)

  • Invisibility
  • Teleportation

I just want to take note of the coincidence here. We both have the same perks. It can be argued our perks cancel out due to this so the deal breaker is stats, which my team mauls yours in.

Perfect Team Work means that everyone on my team will be co-operating everything to a tee, co-ordinating all of there attacks and abilities to prevail against the enemy. This also means no quorums or problems with Luther butchering his foes which they'll aid him in planning, any intel they can gather they will inform to the others around my team, enemy locations and many more.

Full Knowledge is self-explanatory which doesn't need an in-depth explanation, nothing will surprise my team and will know everything which combined with this other perk makes for whilst a simple but very powerful combo

Yeah this is the same reason why I picked the same perks as well. Full knowledge and Perfect Teamwork is nice.

As for character perks I've invested everything into Edward Elric by giving him both Invisibility and Teleportation, with the former Ed will be completely invisible to the naked eye and thus anyone who doesn't have a means of detection via other senses or tech will be in danger to him and it further helps keeping him safe, latter perk gives an already agile Edward tons of mobility an will be able to zip and zap around the map, close distances or co-ordinate in attack patterns with IM and Luther. This'll make Edward an even more dangerous threat for any team with his street hax packing.

My team will be doing the same in being within sync an co-ordinate with eachother to find an utmost optimal route of coming out in top.

The same can be said for Scar. I will say though that Scar is fast enough that one of the character's who can actually sense him, that being Iron man can't react anyways.

Whereas Kars can for sure sense Edward and react to him. The same can be said for Sing.

Tony Stark will scan the area and use his long range HUD to pinpoint the enemies exact location using thermal vision as a means of reading there movements an inform his allies of there location.

I want to clarify something. You have shown no feats suggesting that Thermal vision can actually see across an entire area the span of the distance between our starting locations. Look at how big the battlefield is in the OP.

You showed Tony stark zooming in on things at a distance, but that doesn't see through buildings and walls. Thermal vision sees through walls but the range is not good.

It doesn't really matter anyways since my team is in the sky. And being in the sky we can see over buildings and everything. Furthermore Kars has eye sight equivalent to a space telescope which when ultra ultra lowballed is magnification of 35x

Our teams will enclose in with eachother, Edward will aid Luther by having him teleport as he teleports.

With the aerial enemies in sight IM will bombard the skies with missiles to limit there manoeuvrability,

Are Ironman's missiles even the same speed as the bullets Kars dodged? They are not since they are animated as very slow compared to bullets in the scans you posted. Even if they were, Kars can dodge airplane bullets from relatively close range. Ironman's projectiles get easily dodged at long range. Remember distance matters. If Ironman wants a chance to hit, he will have to get close which is a death sentence.

using fight patterns and aim-bot targeting he'll nuke your team out of the sky with anti-tank level missiles which from what you've shown would one shot Scar, Sing and severely injure the Kars.

The aim bot targeting doesn't mean he can hit targets which can literally dodge these projectiles on reaction. Aim bot only makes you aim so that you are pointing in the right direction. But once the projectile is fired any movement the target does will not be accounted for. I can have the perfect aim when shooting a target with an arrow for example. I can be so good I hit the bullseye, But if the target moves after I fire the arrow I can miss all the same.

Even then, the anti tank missiles have the 2 second delay so the entire team can actually toss the missile away, or even literally at your team before it detonates.

Should least knock em out of the air and IM has the aerial manoeuvrability to avoid Sings buddapalms.

I call lies. I call absolute lies here. Do you honestly think IM dodges anything Sing throws at him? His Buddha palms are fast enough that the Beast couldn't avoid it. Iron Man is not even the same ball park of speed as what is required in a typical speed tourney. The only reason why you even think he can contend is because of the tank feat which is done at ludicrous distances. The only way you can argue Iron Man at even mach 1 combat speed is by ignoring how distance matters, which is not a feature of reality.

You have absolutely no basis for this argument at all. I posted Sing feats in my first post. I don't know how you can look at those feats, and then look at Iron Man's and claim he can avoid these attacks.

Even if we go by your mach 2 estimation of Ironman's reflexes which are dubious. Sing tags Beast who is mach 2.8 lowballed. You have no contention or argument against where I put my characters at, so how does Ironman dodge this?

Now taking a look at the map it seems to be plague to the brim with tall buildings, Edward can take full advantage of these and here's how.

And Kars could go even higher. The buildings are kinda tall. But it is nothing that Kars cannot do. Kars can always maintain a vertical distance of a couple of hundred meters from your team.

If the building is 10 metres tall . Kars can fly 310 meters of altitude to get a distance of 300m , if the building is 100m tall (Something im not willing to believe from the scans in the OP), Kars can fly 410 m of altitude to still maintain the 300 m distance. I am not saying the distance will be 300m, it could be 100, 150 or whatever depending on the optimal distance.

So what difference do the buildings actually make? Do you really think Kars who has 400 IQ and all the intelligence feats I displayed would just stick to a suboptimal altitude and not adapt to whatever your team does?

First he'll teleport himself and Luther on top and then will with his Alchemy to help them traverse hundreds upon hundreds of feet in order to catch up to your team.

There are several things wrong with this argument.

The first thing is that Alchemy as you have explained requires the transmutation of one substance into another through the process of equivalence exchange. One of the panels you had in your post mention the law of conservation of mass.

So what does this mean? It means that what Edward is doing in that scan is he is transmuting the earth, so that it moves upwards to give him platforms to run on as he is chasing the girl. remember, the law of conservation of mass forbids creation of mass from nothing , this means that in order for Edward to create the necessary building blocks to create an elevator, he must push the rock beneath upwards like he is doing in the scan. He can't just make rock from nothing.

The reason this cannot be done in this strategy is that buildings are hollow. Meaning the amount of "earth beneath your feet" you can draw from is miniscule. You will push the roof of the building you are standing on upwards but that does nothing since it aint thick enough.

The second is that even if the buildings weren't hollow, and that Edward can just raise an elevator pillar without worrying about running out of earth below. You still have to prove he can in fact move hundreds of feet off the ground. I have reason to be skeptical here, the reason is that you are drawing from the earth below and pushing it upwards to create this elevator. This logically means that the range of Edward's alchemy has to be hundreds of feet to be able to reach hundreds of feet depth worth of earth in order to raise it up. Then you have to prove Edward's alchemy has the power to move this volume of earth.

The third is that even Scar has reacted to Edward's alchemy. This means Scar can just teleport out if the team wanted to. Of course.... They don't actually need to since my team just mauls this pair of characters anyways. But it shows that the plan is not quite solid.

Ed can also spam an fling all of these dozens of long ranged attacks to further pressure your team to further aid alonside IM's firepower.

And judging from the scan showing its destructive powers it is nothing compared to the damage Kars took when he was hit by an airplane, then crashed with the airplane into a volcano, then tanked the volcano for little bit. Then saved himself using some air bubble science, then regenned from that lava damage. Kars flies through this it doesn't even register to him honestly. The same goes for Sing. And if it gets really bad Scar on like 2 occasions has deconstructed Edward's alchemy on reaction at much closer ranges. So I really don't see any problem here.

I even posted a scan of Scar deconstruction Edward's own alchemy on reaction. I don't know why you ignored that and made this argument.

I know you said "pressure" and not "hurt" but even that is an exaggeration.

Luther can also aid in further projectile support by flinging rocks and spears directly at your team that Edward can constantly create for him using construction Alchemy.

And Kars dodges all of this, and my team defends against all of this. Sing's buddha palm glides through these projectiles and then One hit KO's your team.

There is no feats you have shown that can argue Luther can:

1. Throw projectiles with enough speed to bypass my team's reaction speed even at close range let alone at a far distance

2. Has the strength to throw projectiles with enough power to hurt anyone on my team. Remember, he is not at the cap of the tourney. That was just an out of context scan. The feats shown in the literal same issue just show him busting pillars and walls. I have already posted the scans people can check it themselves.

Luther with the aid of Edward's Alchemy will traverse across the buildings, going further an further up until he gets within range and can fling himself directly towards your discombobulated team with his tremendous launching speed he did here against Jack.

There is nothing to suggest that the speed of this launch can bypass my team's reflexes. There is nothing to suggest Luther can beat Sing or Kars in this circumstance let alone do a 3v1. You argued my team are discombobulated, but I think even someone who has only read my first post could reason from the stats that my characters are at your "pressure" is nothing.

IM could also just as easily enter mach 3 supersonic speeds(stated the suits can go hypersonic but since tourney cap is mach 3 he'll be going to the absolute cap here) for an insta-bullrush which I highly doubt your team will be able to react to with all the missiles,

Where in the link does it show Mach 3? Furthermore, the hypersonic statement comes from a specific suit , and it is a suit that specializes in high speed travel. So no you cannot just claim that Ironman's suit in this fight is Mach 3. You need to post actual evidence.

He is not wearing the mach 5 suit here. I know this because the collage that you posted which is in the OP shows him not wearing this suit.

And the bullrush is far from instant. My characters easily react to this since they can see it coming from a distance. They can do a dozen other things in response that I have listed already.

Edward's Alchemy and the flinging Luther heading your way, which means your team will be bullrushed to the ground and being dazed Tony will take advantage of this by using the full knowledge and disintegrate Kars wings with his heat red lasers.

Edward's alchemy does no damage to everyone except Scar, and Scar in canon has multiple times reacted to these attacks at close range and disintegrated them. Flinging Luther gets ragdolled by Buddha Palm. Ironman gets buddha palmed too. His best feat you posted was Mach 1 how on earth does he make it past my team? Even then Kars just regens the wings like he regenned from the lava. He can just grow new wings as well, remember. He can morph his body to like any animal part, and he can also just flat out create animals and their parts.

From what I know and what you've shown Luther with his superior speed, physicals, body-move reading and regen can easily stomp all three of your team members and they don't have any counters to his precog,

Ok, show me an analysis as to why you think my team is inferior in physicals and speed then. You have posted no analysis, and are making unsupported statements.

Look at my post and how I analyzed every scan and piece of evidence you posted and provided arguments against it. Then look at your arguments and tell me which person is more comprehensive.

And the pseudo precog is not true precog for reasons I have already written.

Edward has been proven to be Scars superior by the end of the series and was already more intelligent and creative with his alchemy not to mention latters most powerful ability is restricted here.

The latter's most powerful ability has been shown to completely negate Edward's own alchemy on 2 occasions, with each occasion showing it negging the alchemy multiple times at all sorts of angles and at all sorts of ranges.

With this in mind I'm just gonna go over some pre-counters:

Since the team has full knowledge and Perfect team work. My characters will work together optimally and will devise a strategy that is optimal against your team.

An my team will have access to the exact same resources ;)

Yep this is true I can't argue with that.

Kars will fly into the air along with Scar and Sing. Carrying them both. He can then use his eye sight to locate your team, after locating your team Sing and Kars will use ranged attacks to whittle yours down over time and eventually pull out a win. Scar is back pocket just in case.

One of the biggest flaws with this strat is that Scar basically becomes completely useless as he'll have no way to access construction alchemy unless if Kars flies to the buildings,

Yes he is not at maximum power but he can still deconstruct anything anyone throws at him with the exception of possibly missiles which with Knowledge he will know to avoid.

Furthermore, the team in general gains bigger advantages as well. And the advantages they gain by doing this are more valuable than Scar's ability to create constructs with alchemy.

The advantage is that none of your team can effectively hurt mine in any meaningful way. If my team maintains an optimal distance, they can dodge every attack or defend against it because the distance will be big enough that reacting to all your attacks is completely doable. Remember, almost any attack can be dodged if there is enough distance. A character who can dodge mach 1 at 1 meter away, can also dodge mach 20 if the distance is big enough (In this case 20 meters). The team can move to the optimal distance where none of your attacks can land, but Sing's buddha palm which tagged the Beast can. Furthermore Sing's buddha palm is pretty insane AOE anyways, so its not like your team can just dodge it even if it is slower than other projectiles they have dodged. My team has full knowledge so Kars can just 400 IQ calculate the right distance. I will give you an example calculation:

Kars can react to mach 2 bullets at decent range, lets say this range is 6 meters for the sake of argument. Since none of your team can actually attack at this speed from what you have shown. Kars can fly 10 meters above your team and he never gets hit since a distance of 10m is bigger than 6m.

But at 10 meters, I highly highly doubt your team can avoid the Buddha Palm. From the arguments I have made from this post analyzing your scans you can easily tell why.

Of course, the distance my team chooses won't necessarily be 10, that is just an example. My argument is that Kars will calculate the optimal distance, and whatever the distance is he will fly at that distance above your team.

Another reason for this is that from the arguments and evidence I have posted Luther basically can't hurt my team. He just can't even if his thrown projectiles are actually un-dodgeable magically. He just doesn't have the strength feats. Again to know why I think this just look back on previous sections of this post.

The same goes for Edward, I have watched the scans you have posted and judging from the impact the constructs do to things like walls and the ground it just can't hurt Kars or Sing, and Scar deconstructs it.

The one person who actually can hurt my team is Ironman, but he is just too slow to do anything. And the one attack that can actually hurt my team is the anti tank missile, and that has 2 second delay so even if it magically hits. The team within those 2 seconds tosses it back at yours.

Furthermore, when the situation calls for it, and the advantages gained by this flying tactic is overshadowed by the advantage of having Scar's construction. My team can just teleport to the ground anyways, it is not like they are locked in.

which'll just put your team in an even worse position from not only IM's tank missile spam

Bare in mind that there is a lot of reasonable skepticism I have for the argument of "tank missile spam".

First off, This is iron man before Infinity war. Meaning he doesn't have nano technology which auto reloads his ammunition. He actually has a set amount of ammunition stored in his suit.

Is there a scan which shows that he has enough tank missiles loaded in his suit to be able to spam it? I don't think so. Furthermore, even if he could. Like I said they have 2 second delay so you know how my team deals with that.

but Edward's long ranged alchemy attacks and against Luther one-shotting 2/3 of your team with a single direct punch.

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IM can also locate your teammates with his HUD infrared vision that he used in Civil War.

But he cannot react to anyone and gets blitzed.

Another issue here is that your assuming my team will be staying completely stationary when Edward will have teleportation to quickly zippy zappy around,

That is a little bit of an inaccuracy on my part and I forgot to address teleportation. Sing's palm is still too fast for Edward to react to. And the rest of your team just gets hit. Unless of course you are arguing Edward is nearby to teleport them to by holding them, in which case everybody gets AOE'd.

Luther can easily avoid everything with his speed and body-reading and IM's manoeuvrability, Scar won't be doing much here since his deconstruction is restricted.

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With Luthers body-reading combined with his speed feats against Jack The Ripper he can easily out-speed him in CQC,

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Edward has been stated to be faster than Scar

and has blitzed Kimbleee, someone whom Scar had problems with doing despite Kimblee being rusty. Sure he was faster than Edward before his automail but after his upgrade there's no doubt he's faster than him and will be getting in more attacks.

This is actually a fair argument. Although Scar did also become stronger by the end of the series too I will concede that Edward has higher speed than him. That being said though ,the lighter automail does not affect magic and alchemy so Scar should for the purposes of countering your strategy be able to deconstruct Edward's attacks, especially when Kars is making the distance an optimal range.

Several things I'd wish to bring up with Sing's buddapalm technique an whilst it is certainly a force to be reckoned with it isn't without it's faults, the most obvious point being Sing has actually never shown to spam these in rapid succession to the degree of let's say Edwards Alchemy or IM's repulsor blasts so it's pretty clear these take some serious wind up time to perform,

I mean he clearly can , it doesnt take any wind up. If you watched the link I posted in Post 1 of Beast vs Sing. You would know this. All he has to do is do a Naruto hand sign with his right arm then extend. Which by the way he can do at Tourney cap speeds. Its not like Sing was even tired or there is anything like body language or facial expressions which even suggests he exerts much effort at all by firing one of these.

Even if we assume it takes wind up. what can your team do against one of these?

on that note he's only used it twice

So what? Like its a movie, and he only received this End of Movie state for a couple of minutes. Are you trying to say that since he has only used it twice, it means he has some notable limit as to how many times he can use it?

He shows on sign of fatigue after using two Buddha Palms. What are you trying to say here?

and both were when the Beast was at point blank range with him so your gonna have to try(which from my knowledge of KFH you can't) and prove he can for utmost certainty spam this otherwise they can be easily avoided.

What does the Beast being at point blank range have anything to do with the spam? How does the beast being close take away from him? The proof is in the pudding, he did it twice in one fight. Afterwards, no sign of fatigue.

You are being unfair here. I will show why:

You claim that Iron man can spam tank missiles when there are multiple reasons to be skeptical of that (Nature of iron man's ammunition pre Infinity War is that there is a limited supply tucked in his suit, he has only used it once in like 10 movies etc).

But you are skeptical of Sing spamming when there are multiple reasons to not be skeptical? (Sing actually does it more than once in the span of like 2 minutes, a martial arts technique should not be assumed to have some limited supply like gun or rocket ammunition and should take stamina, but Sing shows no sign of fatigue after firing 2 in a short time span).

On another note, taking a look at the Buddapalm's range it doesn't seem to be covering very much in length. It doesn't even cover the entirety of the building just a small portion.

Yes, and Kim Kardashian doesn't seem to have much wealth. Her net worth doesn't even reach the 100 billion mark like Jeff Bezos just a small portion.

Things are relative. Yes, the buddha palm doesn't cover the entire building I can visually see that. But it is still better than everything you have shown. Kind of like how Kim Kardashian isn't a multi billionaire but is still richer than everyone I know.

With full knowledge and the precog/fight pattern abilities of 2/3 of my team we will be able to easily avoid these unless if you can prove the prior points in question.

I basically already have even if we don't count this post. I reckon readers who have just read my first post could see why your team just does not have the speed and reflexes to avoid even one of these.

With how slow it is and how long he takes to unleash these I doubt he'll be able to deflect everything.

What is your argument for it being slow? Do you even have an opinion of the speed of the palm? If so where do you put it and what evidence proves said opinion?

You didn't even post evidence or base this claim on anything. You just said that its slow. The video I posted back in Post 1 show the palm tagging the Beast before he can react. And he didn't even have time to parry the actual arm and do something like redirect the palm. Or even dodge it instinctively, granted the palm wasn't even aimed directly at him anyways. But it is obvious the palm came out before the Beast could attack.

Furthermore, what is your evidence for Sing taking long to unleash it? The video I posted in post 1 show him doing it very quickly. So what is your argument based off?

An interesting strategy but one that ultimately ends up backfiring against you, as stated before Scar becomes useless in the air

I mean he can still deconstruct everything Luther and Edward throws at him.

and Sings only option of attack is the Buddha Palm and as established has limitations in it's applicability.

Its not "as established". "As established" is like when a statement is validated with evidence, you have posted no evidence to refute any of my claims about the Buddha Palm. You just said some statements, which are not backed by any video or other pieces of evidence. Furthermore, in my first post I had posted a video showing the Buddha Palm, and anyone on who reads it can immediately tell that your claims about it are false and lack substance.

IM and Edward can attack from both close and long range(Edward with his teleportation to further enhance this)

And neither of their attacks can land because Iron Man is just too slow, And Edward's alchemy is too slow.

and Luther has shown to be capable of traversing long distances with his own physicals and with Edwards aid will be even easier.

Ok but what matters is how quickly he traverses that long distance. The best legit feat you showed was Librarian feat. Which doesn't even measure travel speed well but reflexes, and even they are sub par.

If he launches at my team he just dies. Too slow and you can't dodge midair since you can't push off anything. So he eats Buddha Palm.

This so-called Hamon doesn't appear to be a passive ability and something that he himself needs to initiate,

Yes, but I don't see how this takes away anything from my team. Kars knows to activate it because he has full knowledge.

Luther can easily out-speed him with his superior speed and precog,

Except he can't outspeed him, you didn't even post a comparison between Kars feats and Luther feats and argue why Luther is better. You are just assuming Luther is the fastest for no reason. And pseudoprecog means nothing

Edward can spam constant ranged alchemy so you'd have to proof he can react to all of that coming his way

I mean anybody can react to anything if there is enough distance. But I have already posted proof of Kars reacting to mach 2 machine gun fire from multiple sources at close range in my first post. So, prove that Edward can tag Kars since I already posted my scans, so post your argument as to why Edward's alchemy tags him.

or IM can just blow him to kingdom come with tank missiles which would leave a serious mark to say the least.

Already countered this.

From what you've shown Luther can kill Sing in CQC since he has no outs to precog

Everybody can out Luther's pseudo precog by simply outstating him. I have already responded thoroughly to Luther's stats and they don't tickle Sing.

and he hasn't ever faced an opponent that's completely invisible either like Edward so he'll have an even tougher time against him

I mean already posted evidence and said that Sing and KFH masters can literally just sense people's killing intent and aura so yeah he can just one shot Edward after he senses him. You didn't even try to debunk the sensing btw. Its literally a section called "sensing" in my first post.

Scar has looser morals yes but at the expense of inferior physicals(particularly speed) and creativity with Alchemy, deconstruction would be devastating but is a none factor here which leaves us with Edward having clear cut advantages over him.

I would actually argue Scar is more valuable than Edward in this specific scenario here. His greater mastery over deconstruction allows him to neg Edward's and Luther's throwing attacks. So with one member I negate two of your members. And Iron man is slow as heck and gets blitzed so he doesn't count.

So with just Scar I can protect against all the attacks from the relevant members on your team. And that is not including stuff like optimal distance which Kars will do, and stuff like Buddha Palm deflecting everything except some of iron man's attacks which he is too slow to land anyways.

Refer to my comments above, IM's Civil War suit(his weakest suit) was capable of withstanding Vibranium piercing attacks from Cap's shield

I cannot see this piece of evidence in your post. I actually cannot see any argument relating to Ironman tanking Cap's shield and how impressive that is.

No Caption Provided

Like this is your entire durability section, and there is no mention of the cap shield.

I do not know anything about the shield piercing vibranium either. I searched up the reddit respect thread for MCU Captain and I would assume it would be there but its not.

But on the otherhand, we can get a good idea of the piercing power of the shield from the respect thread.

In this scan we can know that it is not sharp enough to completely pierce an ultron bot

The ultron bot gets absolutely negged by Arrows so its not impressive when the shield can't even cut through them entirely.

Now, the fact that the shield can actually damage and even disable Tony's armor, and cut through it to remove his helmet. Reinforces my confidence that Kars even without Hamon should be able to cut through the armor for sure.

Regardless our team will have full knowledge and will exactly know how to approach this.

Ok so given full knowledge, how do you counter the one shot Hamon or just the slicing power of Kars? Like. Can anyone on your team hurt Kars at all?

Or even avoid the blade?

2/3 of my team can sense invisible. Luther refer to my comments above but TL;DR can fight blind through smell and detection of organs

Note that Luther can only sense people's location but he can't sense things like the direction of someone's kick due to reasons I have already outlined. Granted, Sing is also like this but it matters less for him since he only needs someone's location to Palm them.

IM suits have HUD thermal vision which he can fall back on and fight through your invisibility.

Yes but my characters can move so fast he can't react to anyone anyways.

Edward admittedly doesn't but he is also invisible and also has teleportation which will make it even harder for our team to fight him since neither of them have fought an invisible opponent.

Kars can fight while blind due to having his horn and a plethora of other sensing abilities. Sing can sense Edward's location and palm.

With full knowledge+perfect team work Tony and Luther will co-ordinate with Edward to strike at the exact point and time, he'll be able to put 2 & 2 together to figure out opponents are invisible and that are fighting with the other 2 will know where & when to strike.

I don't even think there is a correct time to strike or a correct location for your team since they die against mine. The Buddha Palm is just too strong on its own. And the other abilities my team has are also too much. And this same advantage is something my team has as well.

You never really responded to any of my team's capabilities with proper evidence. You just made statements without linking any evidence.

On the other hand, you high balled and borderline wanked your team using out of context scans which are outright contradicted by comic pages right before them such as with Luther.

Scar and Edward both have invisibility so I think we can both agree they'll be basically ignoring each other for most of this fight.

I will argue that Edward's alchemy attacks are not invisible since he is manipulating earth that is on the battlefield which is not invisible. And I will argue Scar can see these attacks and deconstruct them, not that these attacks will even hurt my team anyways.

Conclusion

Conclusion Counters

Overall I think I've established that my team packs one hell of a punch. Boasting solid hax of Edward's alchemy and Strodes body-move reading, sheer firepower from Tony's suit+Edward & Strodes alchemy projectiles to seriously hurt if not KO Kars and the physical might to match and overwhelm the opposing team.

I disagree here, Edward's earth bending shouldn't constitute as "hax". It has set destructive capabilities and set durability, and people with stats that are above that can shrug it off.

Strode's body move reading as explained by the literal author, and is also portrayed in the story as a pseudo precog where he sees possibilities, but doesn't exactly know the one that is chosen. Meaning it is practically useless here against a team which outstat him with Kars and Sing.

Tony can't hit anything, and the only attack he has that does notable damage is a tank missile which has a 2 second delay, and logically would have limited ammunition.

You have provided no arguments as to why Edward or Strode would be able to hurt Sing or Kars. And you have provided no arguments as to why Scar does not deconstruct these projectiles like has done on several occasions against Edward throughout the series.

And still, there are no substantiated arguments against the Buddha Palm negging all of this. Since your arguments against it as well as most of the other capabilities of my team are not substantiated by any evidence like a video or a scan.

Our team has full knowledge+perfect team work so we'll know everyone on your team and with the latter will be an absolute sync. Allowing for our team to co-ordinate, strategize and plan for the best course of action to take in order to triumph.

Same goes for my team.

Invisibility+teleportation will make the Edward Elric that much more difficult for your team to deal with, you need to proof Sing and Kars have experience fighting an invisible opponent up-close.

Not necessarily, Sing can just sense and palm at the location. Kars has the air horn which should allow him to do what Wammu does and fight while blind.

If anything, Luther is the one that needs proof on fighting while blind. I am not saying Luther can't fight blind. I am just saying that he would be at a disadvantage while fighting blind since he would only know the location of the opponent but can't see the direction of their attacks. Something that is essential for CQC martial artists.

This disadvantage doesn't apply much to Sing since he just AOE palms in their general direction.

Tony will be spamming AoE tank missiles to bombard the sky from all omnidirections. His firepower should be enough to simply blow Kars into kingdom come and out of the air with tank level explosions.

Aoe tank missiles have limited ammunition logically. There is only so much you can fit into your suit after taking account other stuff like other circuitry. The burden of proof is actually on you here since there is reasonable doubt on this statement due to you only logically having a limited amount of these.

Its not like martial arts techniques which draw from stamina and have no set ammunition.

And I will say that the missiles have 2 second delay, so even if they magically hit (Which I have no reason to believe since I have no reason to believe they are any faster than what Kars can dodge) Kars can just throw it back at you.

Edwards spam to raining fire alchemy projectiles and Luther hurdling projectiles & spears directly at your team to further pressure them to the ground

I have debunked Luther's strength and there is no proper evidence he can hurt anyone on my team. Scar disintegrates all edward projectiles fired towards him like he has in the series. And can do it to Luther's as well. Buddha Palm negs everything listed here, and kars can tank everything listed here.

With IM's flight manoeuvrability and knowledge he'll be able to avoid the slow-winding up Buddha Palms from Sing,

Its not slow when it hit the Beast before he could attack man. And you have no substantiation for your statement that even has a slow wind up, Sing just did one naruto hand sign then extended his hand and it wasn't even tiring.

his travel speed is so great it opens up windows for bullrushing, completely countering your aerial strat, dazing ya team which will leave them open to an frontal assaul

Travel speed is mach 1. Too slow for anyone on my team. His bullrushing would be below Sing and Kars. And Scar can teleport on reaction.

Luther Strode's regeneration an endurance will be more than enough to power through almost any attack with ease

Only if you wank him by posting 2 scans taken out of context. Ignoring 12 previous pages worth of scans depicting wall level fighting, assuming the time frame between the 2 scans is impressively low and assuming the warehouse was not damaged on its support structures prior to the scans in quesiton.

and with his body-move reading will know every action your team will make.

Only if you ignore the author statement and assume his precog is true precog and not pseudo precog.

I'll leave it at this for now, saving the real juice for later on.

That's all from me, now this is where the real fun begins ;)

Ok then post more scans next post I guess.

My Conclusion

As I have stated again in the post. Your arguments against my characters have no substantiation.

You have posted no proper comparison or writing about how characters you think are faster than mine are actually like that.

You didn't explain why Luther is the fastest here. All his feats are aim dodging. The librarian one is legit but mediocre.

You even posted out of context evidence such as the warehouse one.

As for Iron Man, you ignored distance and just scaled Ironman to the projectile speed without taking into account distance. Which is wrong.

You make assumptions when there is obvious doubt on them such as Iron man being able to spam the tank missiles, which are obviously limited in supply.

Not much has changed for me, I believe the arguments I presented solidly give my team the advantage

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T4V

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TAEP. This seems like my kind of match.

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#16 emperorthanos-  Moderator
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#17  Edited By Chronicplane

Post #2 Counters | Engineers, Alchemists & Nerds Align

The team making up of heroes with splitting ideologies, morals and convictions. About to enter the round two fray. Now before we delve into counters there's just little something that needs to be said.

No Caption Provided

Kind of a half-assed post I'm sure some of you are probably thinking(either that or I feel like that lol), my interest for this has died of quite a bit due to the apparent headaches that sparked with Luther Strode and my opponent on Discord and other various reasons I'd prefer not to go on about here(if not at all) but alas here it is, I'll admit some of what my opponent said was deserved but there were was still megatons of misconception, out of context and just blatant lowball on LS which I wanted to address. Didn't make a counter section for Edward since it seems generally(plan section aside) my opponent and I have no disagreements there.

Defending Luther Strode:

I see. I am a bit skeptical though since there was a statement by one of the writers that Luther with pure speed can't actually dodge a bullet at point blank range unless he inferences with reading body language skill. I will still look at your feats and compare them to my character.

Since when is it on the vine author statements >>> feats now?, especially since the sheer consistency of Luthor's feats blatantly contradicts what Jordan says since let's be real he doesn't know what he talks about when it comes to the verse's power levels. Since the general consensus is that feats take precedent I'll take this won't be an issue but was still something I wanted to address.

You are right in saying that it is several meters apart, and although this feat is impressive for the common street leveler, it pales in comparison to what my team can do. Let us be very generous and assume the bullet was travelling at the high end of 520m/s.

Now look at The Beast's feat: https://youtu.be/GMQSJ9x9fMc?t=146

If we assume the ultra lowball of 180m/s for the Beast's gun (It is ultra lowball because modern articles put the gun at 190m/s, but im lowballing to 180m/s for the sake of argument). You can see that the distance is literally point blank. In fact, I would say it is like around 9 times less distance than your feat.

It seems my opponent has taken a lowball approach to saying this feat isn't impressive(even though it's only the first early on feat I used) but to address this I'll also bring up the feat again here

No Caption Provided

This looks to my definition that this feat was pretty much point blank, only less than a couple feet apart and considering the gun used here was a lot faster I only don't see how this feat ain't comparable to your characters in speed. Keep in mind Librarian performed this feat "casually" to at that so it's quite obvious he's a lot faster. Now we have different interpretations for what point blank is but this to me should fit among that spectrum. My opponents suggests that distance makes this feat unimpressive even though it was only a couple feet like don't ya see the contradictory here, they were literally an average couch distance apart lol.

1. Sing is reacting to Mach 2.8 attacks. Your gun is at most Mach 1.51 if we go by the highball of 520m/s which would be unfair but im gonna do it for sake of argument.

Concrete proof that Sing's attacks are Mach 2.8 so specifically? an your estimate for the Librarian feat is inaccurate when you failed to observe the short couch distance between the 2 and as you said the gun being 3 times faster that would place the feat within the mach 2 spectrum wouldn't it not, well your gonna have to show some evidence to your calcs otherwise they are head-canon and unreliable.

The Librarian already saw the direction the gun was pointing at, so it is much much easier to dodge and react to, since you already know the direction of the bullet and which way to dodge. All that is left is reacting to the bullet coming out. Sing on the other hand was fighting a martial artist, and so the martial artist's attacks are less predictable. Its not like a gun where you know the direction of the bullet by looking at the direction of the barrel.

What?, how does seeing the gun make any difference. The gun wielder aimed the weapon right at his face, was couch distance apart and fired AFTER it moved and at point blank. These levels of speed and beyond would apply to all method users so they would need to be that fast in order to land attacks on each other so I don't see where your getting at here.

3. The distance he is reacting at on top of that is several times shorter than the Librarian feat.

Even IF I admit Beast's feat may be better it ain't so much so than Luther wouldn't keep up, especially since he grows stronger throughout the series. Again this is one of the earlier showings which if anything speaks volumes if this feat is debatable against this one.

The earnest is on you to prove that this is a legitimate feat where Luther avoids bullets on reaction since it is your character and you were the one who first provided this scan.

Now that being said, I will provide arguments against this feat.

As you can see on the first panel up top Luther is actually inside the room, you can see his legs. He then begins moving on the 2nd panel. Note that this has to be an aim dodge feat unlike the actual true reaction dodge feat that the Librarian did. The reason I deduce this is that if you look at the yellow sparks, there are some on the walls.

What I am trying to say is, is that the people shooting at Luther are prostitutes, and they do not really have the best aim. If they actually could aim, they would have hit Luther. The yellow sparks on the wall prove this. Those are bullets hitting the wall behind Luther. They just missed. If they were actually aimed at Luther, he would have been hit since he is in front of the wall.

Furthermore, my image is annotated with 2 bullets circled in red, they appear to be behind Luther as well. Meaning this is pretty much mostly an aim dodge feat.

Even if we take the feat seriously, it is important to note that the vast majority of the women are carrying pistols which are not impressive to dodge at this distance. It is also ambiguous whether the people who actually carry rifles were even aiming properly at Luther at all.

Overall compared to the Librarian feat this is actually less impressive, the Librarian feat was unambiguous, we have a panel where a gun was pointed at him, a panel where the gun was fired but the Librarian hasn't moved yet, then a panel where he dodges the flying bullet. Unambiguous.

Due to the nature of the feat and the reasons I lay out, I think there is too much evidence for skepticism to take this feat as anything impressive.

Knew you was going to try and downplay this feat, to which I can counter all of this easily. What my opponent is saying here is nothing more than blatant head-canon in an desperate attempt to try and disprove Luther Strode characters for some reason can't dodge bullets which is contradicted by the very first feat I've shown, Tom has no concrete evidence that the bullets were aim dodged, but to further break this down. They are in a small room with people armed to the brim with machine guns all lined and pointed at in Luthers direction in this small room, all bullets hurdling in Luthers direction looking pretty clear based on the way it's shot making it so he couldn't have simply just aim dodged them since several dozens upon dozens of bullets were fired, this can't be anything else but bullet timing an to say otherwise would be ignorance of a normal human aim dodging and a metahuman shown prior to dodge bullets so why would future instances be any different and them being prostitutes doesn't change anything and is just further head-canon.

Legend of LS Issue #6

Now my opponent tries to go for a cheap shot in saying Jack flexed on Luther in speed and whilst yes he was proven to indeed be faster not so much so that Luther couldn't react to him as if anyone has read LS they would know Luther starts adapting to Jack's speed not only in there first instance but in there rematch to. It's made quite clear that later on Jack didn't prove to be so fast that Luther would not be capable of reacting to him at all, which he does in numerous instances.

Legend of LS Issue #4

So I've proven that Luther is relative to Jack in speed being capable of reacting to his attacks, thus speed feats Jack may have performed should scale to Luther.

Jack the Ripper who I would say is actually faster than Luther in Book 2 has been tagged and knocked back by handguns. Note that when an actual competent person who can aim uses handguns, it can actually tag method users. And you cannot claim he wasn't looking since the bullet came in the same direction as he was facing in the previous panel.

Blatant downplay, And what are you actually talking about. He WAS distracted fighting Luther the whole time an not paying any attention to anything else around him, any character in fiction that has high speed reactions and no super spider-sense can get tagged by bullets if they don't see them coming. So Jack ain't slow and this is nothing more than another attempt of head-canon to disprove LS characters can dodge bullets which is wrong, as I've proven that Luther's capable of reacting to Jack I'll go right ahead and show more speed feats of Jack to show Luther would be comparable to.

Legend of LS Issue #5

Pretty blatant, clear cut bullet timing at pretty close and similar distance to the LS one we had discussed earlier, however pay more attention the 2nd half panels on the bottom is where things get actually even more impressive. Jack just outright deflects the bullets casually at point blank, less than a door apart whilst taunting and playing around. As I've already proven Luther is relative to Jack in speed. Now these I'd say would easily be a mach 2-2.5 spectrum feat an whilst I am aware the level of speeds my opponent is arguing his characters at these should still proof enough that Luther can keep pace, my opponents characters lack the same body-move reading abilities that Luther Strode has which basically more than compensates for that.

There are also times that Luther has been tagged by bullets as well.

1) He gets tagged by a pistol on the shoulder

2) Gets tagged in the legs even at long range.

Note, that this is actually Book 3 Luther, so he should be more competent than the version you are using here. Note, that when people are actually competent in using fire arms and are actually able to at least aim their shots so that they travel in the direction of Luther's body. He can get tagged.

LMAO, does my opponent actually know that shooter(pun intended) is a method user just like Luther is. That alone invalidates this desperate attempt of lowball considering he'd be relative at worst to him in speed on top of body-move reading, this doesn't any water in the slightest and on top of using book 3 material which was blatantly not allowed here, just lol. Whilst I could leave this here I'll actually go ahead an proof why Shooter(and book 3 Luther's) speeds are in fact even more ridiculous than past versions.

Legacy of LS Issue #3 - Credit goes to Vertigo for finding this feat

Basically shooter has hypersonic spectrum level speeds. He fired his gun and it completely overpowered the sniper bullet mid-flight and punctured through the sniper round, based on how kinetic energy works this would arguably make this feat hypersonic. Mow this feat is quite a headache to discuss for both me, my opponent an various others, book 3 ain't even relevant to the characters I'm using this is just further example beyond Shooter being a method user and scaling to others in speed. So I'd prefer if we could just put aside this attempt of lowball an focus on the actual debate, cause even at worst either way you slice it these claims are invalid.

So again, this is obviously an aim dodging feat. He was just too fast for them to get a clean hit. After all, these are just regular humans. This is not unambiguous like the Librarian feat where I will remind there is a panel where the gun is aimed but not fired, a panel where the gun is fired where Librarian doesn't move, then a panel where he moves out of the way of the bullet.

Look to the comments above already addressed, baseless head-canon and the room was filled to the brim with trained human mercs armed with machine guns. He dodged them thus this would easily be a mach 1-2 speed feat.

So in terms of speed think I've proven enough that Luther can fight your characters.

Ok now I believe this is a little bit of an exaggeration.

First off, the pair were fighting for a long time and they don't display any of this DC or durability which you have claimed.

Sift through these scans in the warehouse fight and find me one feat which supports your Tourney cap statements. You won't be able to.

Secondly, the timeframe between the warehouse being in stable condition and the warehouse being destroyed is ambiguous. Let us look at the scans again in more detail

1) Warehouse is fine, cops aren't there yet

2) Cops come, warehouse than explodes.

I have so many issues with your arguments that is hard to find where to start. But I will try my best to list them

The warehouse was busted, more head-canon based on how long it took which you don't know. The sheer force coming from both the combatants energy output had to be relative enough to destroy it otherwise it wouldn't have been destroyed at all. So I don't see where he is lacking in damage output. We don't know the exact time in-between the panels but based on how in one panel the warehouse was stable and in the next it was completely destroyed it couldn't have been more than several seconds. Either way you slice it destroying the warehouse like this would have to put his striking output within building spectrum.

Note that this is actually pseudo precog , it is not actually hard precog as explained by one of the authors.

He can only see all the possible moves , but he has to calculate which one is most likely. This is why initially he couldn't read the Librarian , its because it is just pseudo precog. If he is against someone with vastly higher statistics he won't be able to use this practically. Its just too fast and unless you have actual hard precog where you know 100% what your opponent is going to do, it makes negligible difference.

Even against the Librarian, when he actually is able to "see" and pseudo precog him. He still gets tagged by the Librarian and they have a decent fight. And Kars and Sing are hilariously above that. It only tells him the possibilities but he has to guess which possibility is the one that is going to be picked.

Furthermore, body reading doesn't really work on Alchemy for obvious reasons you should know since you are debating an FMA character.

Feats >>>> Author quotes so all of this is not only invalid but a complete waste of time, the feats on panel themselves completely contradict what Jordan says and as I've already said he has no idea what he talks about so a desperate attempt of lowballing by using this as a only means of dealing with it won't hold any water and what "can only see all possible moves" LMAO. And he couldn't read the Librarian because he was still in training and learning how to use his abilities, that entire sequence was literally Librarian getting Luther to accept who he is an to further awaken his inner talent by having him accidently killing his mother, which triggered the ability. Right after that he could body-read Librarian just fine.

No Caption Provided

But I'll pull a page out of your book just as you tried to do with lowballing his speed. I confirmed the OP that I'm allowed to use feats from book 3 to debunk any misconceptions.

Legacy of LS Issue #1

If this isn't anymore blatant then I don't know what is, it outright shows every possible move your opponent makes just as I've said. Now this is obviously in book 3 but the general point should still stand. There is no "has to calculate most likely" as it shows him every outcome, so if opponent makes x move he'll know it before they make it. Aside from the unreliable Jordan quote my opponent attempted to use which is contradicted by the feats shown within the story, everything else my opponent said here was baseless head-canon and a show of ignorance of the series. Thus far my opponent has shown nothing of Kars or Sing to proof that they can counter body-move reading.

Furthermore, body reading doesn't really work on Alchemy for obvious reasons you should know since you are debating an FMA character.

Irrelevant as you've said yourself Scars in the air and thus construction alchemy is out the window for him, next.

You are exaggerating here. It allows him to see possibilities, but not the exact option the opponent chooses. Which makes it negligible against people who outstat him.

Already addressed above. You are misinterpreting here, it allows him to see all possibilities an which one his opponent is about to make. When stat gaps are negligible/small and the opponent lacks any sort of ability to counter this it'll certainly make a difference.

If you look at the link here you will see that the healing factor is also not that impressive. The stabs and slashes are very superficial for this tier. The cuts he sustained against jack are drawn to be very shallow and it didn't seem deep enough that it accessed any arteries which would result in more explosive blood loss. Even then the healing wasn't even that fast since the symbol Jack carved on his torso was present for quite a bit of pages before it managed to heal.

This regen is so negligible that it might as well be non existent if I am being honest.

What?, he literally regrows his entire limbs and intestines back in a matter of moments. As shown in the Librarian fight his intestines are all over the place and he regenerates them back how is that not impressive. My opponents downplaying the impact of Luthers healing here as already stated above.

Saying that it hard counters is an exaggeration. The cloaked person will still actually have an advantage over you. Especially when Luther is CQC character. Listening to heartbeats only allows you to pinpoint the location of their heart. But you won't be able to see the rest of their body. If he was fighting an invisible martial artist, he won't be able to see the person's kicks or the direction they are aimed at to react properly. Meaning he is at a hard disadvantage regardless.

This is not the exact statement made by the librarian. The librarian said that using various senses such as hearing and smelling, Luther should be able to find him. This does not mean one can actually realistically fight as though they are not at a disadvantage while blind.

If you can't see where your opponent's kicks and punches are aimed at, and only know their position through knowing the location of their heart. How on earth are you going to be able to react to their attacks?

Wrong, wrong and more wrong. "sigh" Once again baseless head-canon an proof my opponent hasn't even touched Luther Strode, that is literally not what it is at all. It's made pretty clear that method users don't need eyes to fight there opponent otherwise Librarian wouldn't have put such a big emphasis on it's capabilities. Like seriously, he uses these abilities to fight people he cannot see, it's what all method users do and if your still sceptical I'll show various examples right now.

Legacy of LS Issue #3, Issue #4

Various examples of blind method users detecting and fighting through there other senses, implying that Luther "cannot fight" invisible opponents is choosing to be ignorant of LS's power system being put in place. Luther can detect an fight opponents he can't see just fine.

these feats are not what you claim. You claimed that he can sense people from miles away. Show me the context and evidence for this claim.

I already explained the feat, try reading it over.

Defending Iron Man:

Yeah these seem like solid travel speed feats. But what matters most is combat speed.

I will say though that all of my characters can react and handily dodge or counter the bullrush since it is only Mach 1.

Yeah this is fair, but still with a bombardment of projectiles and attacks co-ordinated it should still prove to be difficult combined.

I can see there is a lot of scepticism here when it comes to this tank feat, my opponent did a decent job of discussing distance/time which yes you'd be correct I'll concede on that one part however I still stand by my point that Tony has supersonic perceptions an I'll further elaborate on this right here. So Tony in the Civil War suit(based on showings an film intent is one of his weakest suits) was capable of tangling with Winter Soldier and Captain America in CQC respectively and I'm sure you are aware but these characters do have supersonic reactions as shown with this very famous feat widely known to LA debaters(or infamous) Bucky capable of dodging gun fire after it was fired.

Whilst yes Tony would still be considered the slowest in this match combined with his already ability to dodge subsonic projectile as early on as his first movie should be of further indication that Tony's perceptions would be in the speed realm here, combined with his HUD and aim-bot interface he should have little issues targeting your characters and doing his job of blowing up your characters in the sky.

Now this is impressive, but the fact that he even got downed by a tank hitting him means he didn't exactly no sell or shrug it off. It obviously had some sort of effect on the armor.

All in all with these feats I am willing to believe that Scar would take some time to KO Iron Man, and wouldn't necessarily be a one shot. But Kars with his Hamon conduction and Light blade for sure is carving through this in one hit or/and fries Tony by conducting hamon through the suit. Sing Buddha Palm KO's this no problem.

My opponents forgetting that Edward and Luther exist, you think they are just going to stand around. Your teams going to be bombarded with attacks and Tony can simply play keep away or enter supersonic speeds for attempt bullrushing. Buddha Palm he still needs to hit a constant moving target in-mid air which you can't prove and even if he did the tank feat suggests he can tank a few of these, enough time to simply blow up your team.

Ok im not gonna lie I will agree that this level of DC would in fact be at the tourney cap.

That being said though the actual anti tank missile has weaknesses which make it absolutely negligible in this fight.

The second is that after the missile hits there is lag time until it explodes, It is around 2 seconds if you watch the gif or the same scene on youtube. That is a shit load of time and anybody that gets hit by it can easily toss it out. This is assuming they even get hit by this attack.

My opponent here claims that Tony's missiles have a time delay on them that he can't simply just fire explosives that activate on demand, here I am going to disprove this notion by showing numerous examples of Tony using missiles that blow up on demand and with full knowledge an preparation he can simply just switch time delays of. (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)Tony has used missiles numerous times and he has shown to be capable of choosing between activating them on demand or setting a timer on them, some may wonder though why he decided to not use one that explodes on demand against the tank and that was simply for the sake of dramatic effect/show of a badass scene but is of no indication that he can't use on-demand explosives. So as far as I can tell Tony still blows up your team out of the sky.

The third is that Sing blows it away with his buddha palm. Even if you argue it explodes when hit by the buddha palm (Why did it not explode immediately when it hit the tank then?) Sing has enough reflexes to palm it before it gets close. Since my team has full knowledge they have full knowledge of the nature of this missile and so they will deal with it accoringly.

Forgetting Luther and Edward exist how's he going to deal with such a bombardment of attacks?, you haven't shown Sing spamming these palms fast enough to take down the hell storm of attacks heading at you from every direction, whilst your team may have full knowledge that doesn't tell you which attacks are simply ones tasked of distracting you from the tank missile ones.

I want to comment that although I do not dispute the authenticity of this ability. I want to say that Tony is the only one who can properly see Scar, and he does not have the speed to react to him.

Already addressed above.

In this video it shows that after Cap is able to mount him the countermeasures to fight patterns become mute. As he is in a situation too disadvantageous for the fight pattern reading to matter.

Tony needed knowledge on his fight patterns before he could initiate countermeasures and here he's given full knowledge which provides him and the AI with everything they need, so Tony still uses this to find most optimal route of attacking your team.

Everything else my opponent has said about the power of Tony's other weapons is of little relevance since there only purpose is to discombobulate the enemy backed up alongside Luther & Edward long enough to land clean tank explosive hits.

Initial Defences Towards My Plan:

I just want to take note of the coincidence here. We both have the same perks. It can be argued our perks cancel out due to this so the deal breaker is stats, which my team mauls yours in.

Not how it works lol, if both parties have prep that doesn't mean prep is gone.

I want to clarify something. You have shown no feats suggesting that Thermal vision can actually see across an entire area the span of the distance between our starting locations. Look at how big the battlefield is in the OP.

You showed Tony stark zooming in on things at a distance, but that doesn't see through buildings and walls. Thermal vision sees through walls but the range is not good.

Head-canon, you have no evidence to disprove Tony can use thermal vision long distances.

Are Ironman's missiles even the same speed as the bullets Kars dodged? They are not since they are animated as very slow compared to bullets in the scans you posted. Even if they were, Kars can dodge airplane bullets from relatively close range. Ironman's projectiles get easily dodged at long range. Remember distance matters. If Ironman wants a chance to hit, he will have to get close which is a death sentence.

The way they are animated is only done for cinematic effect it makes little sense why Tony's advanced weaponry would be slower than even primitive century-year old guns. You seem to be assuming Tony's firing one but he's unloading all of them at once, in every direction, every angle towards your team. You have to prove your team can deal with this bombardment.

The aim bot targeting doesn't mean he can hit targets which can literally dodge these projectiles on reaction. Aim bot only makes you aim so that you are pointing in the right direction. But once the projectile is fired any movement the target does will not be accounted for. I can have the perfect aim when shooting a target with an arrow for example. I can be so good I hit the bullseye, But if the target moves after I fire the arrow I can miss all the same.

The aim-bot still goes a long way when you throw into the equation of Luther, Edward and all the other attacks being thrown your way. Fight patterns companied with full knowledge will only make it that much easier to execute.

Even then, the anti tank missiles have the 2 second delay so the entire team can actually toss the missile away, or even literally at your team before it detonates.

Already addressed above.

I call lies. I call absolute lies here. Do you honestly think IM dodges anything Sing throws at him? His Buddha palms are fast enough that the Beast couldn't avoid it. Iron Man is not even the same ball park of speed as what is required in a typical speed tourney. The only reason why you even think he can contend is because of the tank feat which is done at ludicrous distances. The only way you can argue Iron Man at even mach 1 combat speed is by ignoring how distance matters, which is not a feature of reality.

Based on his fights with super soldiers who have supersonic speeds and capable of piloting his suit at mach speeds companied with fight patterns and aid of Luther and Edward I'd say at a distance he's more than capable enough of avoiding the Palms, as my opponent has said himself it's much easier to avoid a hypersonic projectile at a distance and Tony's not going to be up close like the Beast was he will be at a distance simply blowing your team outta the sky with tank-missiles.

And Kars could go even higher. The buildings are kinda tall. But it is nothing that Kars cannot do. Kars can always maintain a vertical distance of a couple of hundred meters from your team.

If the building is 10 metres tall . Kars can fly 310 meters of altitude to get a distance of 300m , if the building is 100m tall (Something im not willing to believe from the scans in the OP), Kars can fly 410 m of altitude to still maintain the 300 m distance. I am not saying the distance will be 300m, it could be 100, 150 or whatever depending on the optimal distance.

So what difference do the buildings actually make? Do you really think Kars who has 400 IQ and all the intelligence feats I displayed would just stick to a suboptimal altitude and not adapt to whatever your team does?

How's Kars going to keep flying up if the skies are going to be bombarded with explosives from IM and if he attempts this it'll also leave your team wide open to bullrushes, finally this is a battle meaning you can't simply just stay in the air forever your gonna have to come down and fight my team, Budda Palms become a lot more ineffective when your firing them at my team from such a far away distance so this strategy if anything is even more counterintuitive not only for Scar but for Sing to.

The reason this cannot be done in this strategy is that buildings are hollow. Meaning the amount of "earth beneath your feet" you can draw from is miniscule. You will push the roof of the building you are standing on upwards but that does nothing since it aint thick enough.

The second is that even if the buildings weren't hollow, and that Edward can just raise an elevator pillar without worrying about running out of earth below. You still have to prove he can in fact move hundreds of feet off the ground.

My opponent claims here that Edward can't use the materials of the buildings in order to help him and Luther traverse hundreds upon hundreds of feet because they are hollow which I think is really reaching to be honest. We've seen both Ed & Al capable of making so much as even smaller constructs in order to traverse 100s of feet. Know what he says about laws of alchemy is correct an Ed has all the raw material he needs, Ed doesn't need to pull everything from underneath so long as there is rock around him he can simply just pull the materials from the building, whether the buildings are hollow are not is unclear but what we do know is Ed needs to have access to material and the entire building structure, rooftops an sides of the building are made of stone which he can pull from so even if they are hollow it doesn't mean he can't pull from them.

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As stated they've created smaller Alchemy to traverse distances so I don't see this being an issue. This feat also disproves any doubt of Ed not being to able to move hundreds of feet of the ground

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Ed's has actually used alchemy on top of buildings like when he did against Scar so saying they can't use alchemy at all on a building is reaching, especially as I've said it doesn't necessarily need to come straight from underneath so long as there's sufficient enough material(i.e entire rooftop, sides of a building) to work with then performing this plan should still be feasible, so all things said and done my plan of Edward creating Alchemy to help traverse hundreds of feat still applies which will help reaching your team and aid Luther in bombarding your characters with attacks.

And judging from the scan showing its destructive powers it is nothing compared to the damage Kars took when he was hit by an airplane, then crashed with the airplane into a volcano, then tanked the volcano for little bit. Then saved himself using some air bubble science, then regenned from that lava damage. Kars flies through this it doesn't even register to him honestly. The same goes for Sing. And if it gets really bad Scar on like 2 occasions has deconstructed Edward's alchemy on reaction at much closer ranges. So I really don't see any problem here.

Did I say seriously injure?, no I said pressure to further add fuel to the fire. How's your team exposed to deal with all these attacks, the looming threat of tank missiles?

And Kars dodges all of this, and my team defends against all of this. Sing's buddha palm glides through these projectiles and then One hit KO's your team.

How are you going to dodge throwing projectiles from Luther strode, someone who I have already proven to be fast enough to keep pace with. On that note I'm going to further emphasis here just how dangerous Luther's projectile throwing can be as I have already established before. This of course has to do with his body-move reading. Even so far early on as during his training phase and before he even smacked the hero mask on he was utilising this body-move reading in a standard game of dodgeball, as stated it let's him see all possibilities happen before they are initiated so he knew exactly which course to take. From there it was only acting on it an through body-move reading he was able to land the projectile right at his opponents face.

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Now obviously, after mastering his abilities, defeating Librarian and becoming the ultimate method user using this will be no issue. Thus far my opponent hasn't provided any counters beyond head-canon(which I've debunked) for this nor do they have any move reading of the sort. Meaning combined with such numerous attacks Luther will easily knock you outta sky with such attacks, now I don't expect stuff like sharp spears or giant boulders to do the trick but it'll at worst daze your team an thus leaving them even more wide open to attacks

There is no feats you have shown that can argue Luther can:

1. Throw projectiles with enough speed to bypass my team's reaction speed even at close range let alone at a far distance

2. Has the strength to throw projectiles with enough power to hurt anyone on my team. Remember, he is not at the cap of the tourney. That was just an out of context scan. The feats shown in the literal same issue just show him busting pillars and walls. I have already posted the scans people can check it themselves.

Already addressed above.

There is nothing to suggest that the speed of this launch can bypass my team's reflexes. There is nothing to suggest Luther can beat Sing or Kars in this circumstance let alone do a 3v1. You argued my team are discombobulated, but I think even someone who has only read my first post could reason from the stats that my characters are at your "pressure" is nothing.

Already addressed above, Luther has stats to keep pace, hit your team and you have no counters to body-move reading and honestly from what you've shown thus far Luthers striking is sufficient enough to hurt your team alone.

Bare in mind that there is a lot of reasonable skepticism I have for the argument of "tank missile spam".

First off, This is iron man before Infinity war. Meaning he doesn't have nano technology which auto reloads his ammunition. He actually has a set amount of ammunition stored in his suit.

Is there a scan which shows that he has enough tank missiles loaded in his suit to be able to spam it? I don't think so. Furthermore, even if he could. Like I said they have 2 second delay so you know how my team deals with that.

Already addressed above, already shown Tony capable of spamming projectiles through numerous instances and with full knowledge no reason why he wouldn't do it here.

That is a little bit of an inaccuracy on my part and I forgot to address teleportation. Sing's palm is still too fast for Edward to react to. And the rest of your team just gets hit. Unless of course you are arguing Edward is nearby to teleport them to by holding them, in which case everybody gets AOE'd.

Ed can react to these just fine from a distance as you've said it's easier to react to projectiles from a distance so going by that logic he should be reacting to these and the only way to land these would be by getting in closer.

I mean he clearly can , it doesnt take any wind up. If you watched the link I posted in Post 1 of Beast vs Sing. You would know this. All he has to do is do a Naruto hand sign with his right arm then extend. Which by the way he can do at Tourney cap speeds. Its not like Sing was even tired or there is anything like body language or facial expressions which even suggests he exerts much effort at all by firing one of these.

Nope, in that video Sing takes around a few seconds to wind up and fire this attack and it seems his hand needs to stay in motion before he can fire another one so they do need wind up time, what I mean by rapid succession I mean something like machine gun firing speeds or how fast Tony can fire his shoulder missiles. Here they certainly don't appear to be that fast.

Even if we assume it takes wind up. what can your team do against one of these?

Dodge, outmanoeuvre, evasive manoeuvres?. As I've shown Tony can react to a tank missile from a distance, Edward can dodge a bullet being fired at point blank and Luther has outright fought characters that casually dodge gunfire and bullets at point blank so reacting to the Budda Palms from a distance should be relatively simple.

He shows on sign of fatigue after using two Buddha Palms. What are you trying to say here?

There's no evidence that he can spam em like let's say like this, on that note trying to tag fast opponents from a far distance whilst being bombarded with projectiles make it even harder for him especially since you haven't posted any feats of this tagging a constant moving target not charging at him.

Yes, and Kim Kardashian doesn't seem to have much wealth. Her net worth doesn't even reach the 100 billion mark like Jeff Bezos just a small portion.

Things are relative. Yes, the buddha palm doesn't cover the entire building I can visually see that. But it is still better than everything you have shown. Kind of like how Kim Kardashian isn't a multi billionaire but is still richer than everyone I know.

The wealth of the land owner is of little relevance, what I'm getting at is it has limited range and with full knowledge my team will know of the Pudda Palm so keeping a distance and abusing persistent firepower is optimal.

I basically already have even if we don't count this post. I reckon readers who have just read my first post could see why your team just does not have the speed and reflexes to avoid even one of these.

To the readers I've already addressed the LS issue and how Edward & Tony are fast enough to where they can avoid these Palms from a distance.

What is your argument for it being slow? Do you even have an opinion of the speed of the palm? If so where do you put it and what evidence proves said opinion?

Readers if we take a minute to overlook the scene again, at 8:49 we see that it takes a few seconds for the Palm to reach the building from that distance and based on my opponents strategy he'll be much further away. This will be slow in the attacks travel speed based on how long it took for it to reach the building I have no doubt that with prior knowledge my team will be able to avoid these unless if my opponent chooses to fight up close, which Luther can simply blitz via body-move reading an pummel him.

I mean he can still deconstruct everything Luther and Edward throws at him.

Based on what I've shown I'd say Luther is a lot faster than Scar and thus any projectiles(let's say sharp spears made by Ed) he throws at him in conjunction with his body-move reading could very well impale him before he gets the chance to deconstruct.

Its not "as established". "As established" is like when a statement is validated with evidence, you have posted no evidence to refute any of my claims about the Buddha Palm. You just said some statements, which are not backed by any video or other pieces of evidence. Furthermore, in my first post I had posted a video showing the Buddha Palm, and anyone on who reads it can immediately tell that your claims about it are false and lack substance.

I've already proven that the Budda Palm takes time to travel based on when he used it against Beast, I've proven that he cannot fire these in rapid succession thus there will always be windows for opportunity to exploit, I've established that at a distance and against moving targets it becomes a lot harder for Sing to successfully land em.

Ok but what matters is how quickly he traverses that long distance. The best legit feat you showed was Librarian feat. Which doesn't even measure travel speed well but reflexes, and even they are sub par.

If he launches at my team he just dies. Too slow and you can't dodge midair since you can't push off anything. So he eats Buddha Palm.

Already addressed above.

Yes, but I don't see how this takes away anything from my team. Kars knows to activate it because he has full knowledge.

Irrelevant since he still needs to be up close to use it, my team has full knowledge so they will know how to approach it.

Except he can't outspeed him, you didn't even post a comparison between Kars feats and Luther feats and argue why Luther is better. You are just assuming Luther is the fastest for no reason. And pseudoprecog means nothing

Luthers body-move reading already addressed, it'll allow him to outspeed him, your character has no counter towards this ability and he ain't fast enough either.

Everybody can out Luther's pseudo precog by simply outstating him. I have already responded thoroughly to Luther's stats and they don't tickle Sing.

Except no one here outstats him, or at least not by enough. Once it again it ain't pseudo precog it literally shows the method user every possible move your going to make before one makes it, don't know why you keep insisting on downplaying this ability be neitherless I've already addressed above.

I mean already posted evidence and said that Sing and KFH masters can literally just sense people's killing intent and aura so yeah he can just one shot Edward after he senses him. You didn't even try to debunk the sensing btw. Its literally a section called "sensing" in my first post.

Except he can't since he won't be tagging him from a distance, on that note Edward wouldn't even have a murderous aura so I'm not so sure but even then just because Sing can sense someone's killing intent doesn't concretely prove he can tag a constant moving invisible opponent.

I would actually argue Scar is more valuable than Edward in this specific scenario here. His greater mastery over deconstruction allows him to neg Edward's and Luther's throwing attacks. So with one member I negate two of your members. And Iron man is slow as heck and gets blitzed so he doesn't count.

Just going to say that Edward knows more of Alchemy than Scar, he's used it numerous times to gain advantages so I don't know what this is about. Scar uses it to kill people yes, that doesn't mean Ed ain't unknowledgeable in deconstruction and no he doesn't neg two members Luther is faster and with body-move reading will tag him and Tony's rapid firing explosives and Edward's spamming construction alchemy.

So with just Scar I can protect against all the attacks from the relevant members on your team. And that is not including stuff like optimal distance which Kars will do, and stuff like Buddha Palm deflecting everything except some of iron man's attacks which he is too slow to land anyways.

Not from every direction.

Ok so given full knowledge, how do you counter the one shot Hamon or just the slicing power of Kars? Like. Can anyone on your team hurt Kars at all?

Anti-Tank Missile Spam?, Luther Strodes building level striking power? these should be sufficient enough.

Note that Luther can only sense people's location but he can't sense things like the direction of someone's kick due to reasons I have already outlined. Granted, Sing is also like this but it matters less for him since he only needs someone's location to Palm them.

Already addressed above, other method users have fought blinded and Librarian outright tells him to fight by using your other senses. Sensing killing intent, aura whatever from Sing ain't nearly potent from what I've seen.

Yes but my characters can move so fast he can't react to anyone anyways.

In CQC sure, but with range he's in the spectrum of speed where it's feasible. Especially with the aid of Luther and Edward.

Kars can fight while blind due to having his horn and a plethora of other sensing abilities. Sing can sense Edward's location and palm.

A constant, moving, invisible target from a distance whilst dealing with everything else I doubt. As said the Palm's travel attack speed took a few seconds to obliterate the building so from further distance with teleportation he can avoid these.

On the other hand, you high balled and borderline wanked your team using out of context scans which are outright contradicted by comic pages right before them such as with Luther.

Uno reverso, you lowballed and slept on Luther Strode clearly taking scans like the Shooter one from book 3, Jack in his fight against Luther out of context and misinterpretation his body-move reading as a means of countering it when in truth be told you have no counter towards it..

I will argue that Edward's alchemy attacks are not invisible since he is manipulating earth that is on the battlefield which is not invisible. And I will argue Scar can see these attacks and deconstruct them, not that these attacks will even hurt my team anyways.

They serve as persistent pressure that can discombobulate your team, pretty big when your also dealing with Luther Strode throwing spear projectiles and anti-tank missiles.

What My Opponent Has Failed to Counter:

Luther Strode's stats/Body-Move Reading

Simply put he misinterpreted all of his feats including the body-move reading and what it actually does, made an attempt to downplay his speed by claiming he got tagged by the superhuman Shooter who boasts the exact same method abilities as him let alone taking into account the bullets actual speed being waaayyyyy higher, to the point where it makes book 3 Luther to much for this tourney. My opponent didn't deliver a proper means of dealing with Luther's body-move reading nor countering so Luther will have an advantage unless my opponent argues way above mach 3 which would put him over limits.

Tony's Versatile Oppressive Firepower/Anti-Tank Missile Spam

Opponent may have a means of taking them out but he failed to deliver the necessary counters for dealing with numerous projectiles heading in there direction and don't forget they aren't just going to be in a linear line they will be coming from all omnidirections, making it that much more difficult to avoid. One good hit and they'll get blown up and based on the tourney Caps limits these will have to severely hurt Kars or else calls into question whether he's over limits. From what I know Sing dies and Scars gets blown to bits. I've debunked the tank missiles having any time delay to and even IF THEY did it's not particular hard to co-ordinate and time precise attacks but of course Tony can choose which mode to use.

Edward's Alchemy Artillery/Traversing

My opponent ended up reaching suggesting Edward cannot use materials that make up a building to create Alchemy when I have disproven this notion, Edward can use Alchemy to traverse 100s of feet to more than reach your characters and to further aid Luther in attacking. His counters didn't go in depth as to how his teams going to be dealing with Edward's oppressive alchemy constructs further pressuring the team as Budda Palm's are to slow to deal with my entire teams co-ordinated combined attack. Edward supplies Luther with constructs like sharp spears or boulders to launch right at your team.

Conclusion/TL;DR

As far as I can tell nothing much as changed, everything I said in my opponent I still stand true to and the reasons my teams beats yours already said but to give a re-cap and summary of why my team wins they are stronger, fast enough to keep up, OP precog abilities and sheer firepower that will prove to be to much for your team and from what I've seen thus far I'm confident that my team wins this battle.

  • I've debunked misinterpretation my opponent has attempted to use of lowballing Luther Strode characters, anything else he claimed is nothing more than baseless head-canon
  • Jordan statements hold no water here as it's generally given that feats >>> author quotes, especially if the feats are consistent with the series.
  • Simply put opponent putting himself at distance puts his team at a disadvantage since Scar can't fight up close, Sing's Palms will take to long to travel and Kars can't use Hamon.
  • Mean whilst Tony's anti-tank missiles still prove to be my win condition, as well as Luther Strode simply overpowering your team once they are discombobulated
  • Edward has more than enough resource materials needed to utilise Alchemy on the buildings to traverse and make weapons as proven.
  • All my team members(even IM) have the necessary speeds needed to react to any of the Palms, and if my opponent chooses to go into CQC Luthers body-move reading will allow him to overpower them all
  • All in all, my team has anti-tank missiles, sheer projectile firepower and manoeuvrability needed to bring your team down.
  • Luther with his move-reading paired with Alchemy projectiles will pose a major threat to Scar and anyone that lacks piercing durability.
You're Move
You're Move

Aight that's all folks, guess I'll now throw the ball back to my opponent.

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@tomtheawesome123 Here it dis, sorry for the delay.

P.S I know you must be itching to counter but mind if ya could withhold from starting your counter post for 24 hours in order for me to make some tweaks. Thanks in advance :)

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#20 emperorthanos-  Moderator
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Post 3

Counters for Iron Man: A further comment on Ironman's role in this battle.

Yeah these seem like solid travel speed feats. But what matters most is combat speed.

I will say though that all of my characters can react and handily dodge or counter the bullrush since it is only Mach 1.

Yeah this is fair, but still with a bombardment of projectiles and attacks co-ordinated it should still prove to be difficult combined.

So you and the readers can now understand why Ironman is slow. And why I do not hold him in high regard. You claimed that Ironman will matter due to coordination between your team on top of his projectiles, but like I have argued in my first post. The nature of Ironman's arsenal is negligible. I will elaborate on this in another section.

However, I want to further comment on something. You have now at the very least made 2 statements and arguments that are blatantly questionable if not utterly wrong. And I want this to set a precedent for the readers. Since you have made arguments that are based on unsound evidence and logic, I think everybody who is reading this debate can understand why I am so thorough when analyzing your scans, and why I have a vigilant skepticism for things that you have claimed.

Here are the 2 statements/arguments and my corresponding debunks to them in question (Numbered left to right):

1) First scan shows a statement you made in your first post. You claimed there was a statement saying Ironman could go Hypersonic

2) I debunked this with this statement. Note that you never responded to this debunk in your 2nd post. Meaning my debunk goes through, and we can continue with our discussion and your hypersonic statement has been proven wrong. This is a significant hole in your team's strength and strategy since you argued in your first post that Ironman would bullrush my team at Mach 3, reasoning that since his suits can go Hypersonic (They can't in this fight) they can go at mach 3. Now that has all been debunked

3) You using the tankshell feat.

4) Me showing that the tankshell feat is nowhere near impressive, and is a very slow feat. Not one that would put Ironman near any of the other characters here. You also never really disputed my reasoning in your 2nd post.

It is always good to have a touch of skepticism, and as we can see from these claims you have made that turned out to be false (Since you didn't respond to my debunks of these points in your post). You can see why it is so important, because with scrutiny we can get closer to the truth. This does not just go for Iron Man, but for your other characters as well.

Many people on discord have claimed that I "lowball" just because it is convenient to downplay my opponent's characters. I want to use these 2 statements that you have made that have been proven wrong (Since you didn't respond directly to these debunks in your 2nd post). I want to send a message to future voters and readers. I don't lowball because it is convenient, I argue against a portrayal or statement about a feat, if I think my opponent is exaggerating its impressiveness or is wrong about it. And as you can see, already just for the Ironman section my opponent has made 2 wrong statements, where I proved with reasoning that they were wrong and they could not dispute it.

In fact, my opponent even directly agreed with one of my debunks

No Caption Provided

So there you go readers and discord people. I don't just lowball.

I just want to get all this out of the way before I continue.

I can see there is a lot of scepticism here when it comes to this tank feat, my opponent did a decent job of discussing distance/time which yes you'd be correct I'll concede on that one part however I still stand by my point that Tony has supersonic perceptions an I'll further elaborate on this right here. So Tony in the Civil War suit(based on showings an film intent is one of his weakest suits) was capable of tangling with Winter Soldier and Captain America in CQC respectively and I'm sure you are aware but these characters do have supersonic reactions as shown with this very famous feat widely known to LA debaters(or infamous) Bucky capable of dodging gun fire after it was fired.

Alright so I want to argue something here. When you present a movie or a fight scene as evidence for your character's capabilities. It goes both ways. What I mean by this is that if you are using Ironman's fight against Captain and Bucky as evidence to show how strong your character is, it is fair if I as your opponent use it to show his limitations and weaknesses.

I will be using the same link you posted of Ironman vs Captain and Bucky as evidence.

One thing I noticed when watching the entire clip, was that Ironman only fought both Captain and Bucky at the same time at the end of the clip.

You can see that throughout the video before the end, Ironman only faces them on one at a time. At first he smacks Captain America away (Bucky wasn't fighting him there so it was just his speed vs Captain's). He then fights Bucky, then Captain hits him with the shield and he turns to fight Captain whilst Bucky was still on the ground recovering, after he locks Captain's legs Bucky strikes again and he 1v1's Bucky and so on. He is able to land in hits before they can react at times, but it goes both ways. In the video Steve and Bucky were also able to tag Iron man. Now Ironman being very durable MCU wise was able to tank these hits but in terms of speed I just want to point out to the readers that through most of the video, Ironman only engaged in direct combat with one of the two at a time, and not both at once.

So what actually happens when both of them are engaging in CQC with Iron man at once?

Here is the scene where Bucky finally is able to help Captain fight Ironman , now to anybody watching it is very clear that Bucky and Captain are able to land way more hits than Ironman did. In terms of speed he was not really able to keep up with them together. Now he was still able to defeat Bucky at least but that is due to his durability of him being able to tank the Duo's punches. The duo landed more hits they just didn't hurt that much.

I want to point this out because a lot of readers will read your post and not actually watch the video, and they will get the impression that Ironman can keep up with both characters at the same time in speed, which he really can't.

Now how impressive are these characters anyways?

You mentioned the Bucky dodging gunfire feat. Here is a youtube version since that is easier to load for some people and it is easier to link to a specific timestamp.

So the 2 frames that I want to discuss take place between 0:46 and 0:49 in that video.

1) First scan shows the distance between Bucky and Falcon at first

2) Second scan shows the distance between Bucky and Falcon when Falcon actually fires shots at Bucky.

As you can see. The distance is absolutely horrendous, it is around 5 meters away. But it is less bad than the tank shell feat. But If you compare this to my characters it is very poor.

Now of course... If Falcon's guns were light speed or something. That would put this feat above my characters even if the distance is long.

But we actually know the muzzle velocity.

They are Steyr sub machine guns , the SPP version

Muzzle velocity is 400m/s (Note that both the TMP and SPP should have the same muzzle velocity, because they are just gun design variants, and what actually determines bullet velocity is the cartridge) . This is less than Mach 1.2

Womp womp, so you are dodging less than Mach 1.2 at like 5 meters away.

So even Scar my slowest character can blitz that. Even beginning of series Edward who Scar blitzed along with Alphonse could react to minigun fire from a similar distance away. And unlike this submachine gun, minigun rounds actually go faster than mach 2 generally speaking.

So I have pointed out 2 things about this scaling which should be important to readers:

1. Ironman can't actually in terms of speed fight Captain and Bucky at the same time, he is only going pound for pound in terms of reflexes when he is fighting one on one with one of them. At the end of the clip he faces 2 at once and couldn't keep up with speed, only being able to stand a chance due to durability. Its a shame Bucky and Captain America are so physically weak, or else Ironman would have been defeated sooner.

2. Each of them are very slow. Mach 1.2 at 5 meters is so slow. So slow. even Mach 1.2 at 1 meter way (A feat that is 5 times faster than your feat) is slow compared to someone like Sing who can react to the same thing except it being Mach 2.7 (or mach 2.99 if I stop ultra lowballing him, and decided to instead simply normal lowball him)

So if you put two on two together. The conclusion is that Ironman's combat speed and reflexes is only at the level where he can replicate Bucky's feat of dodging Falcon's guns at 5 meters away. Which is not enough for you to argue he is even in this fight at all.

Whilst yes Tony would still be considered the slowest in this match combined with his already ability to dodge subsonic projectile as early on as his first movie should be of further indication that Tony's perceptions would be in the speed realm here, combined with his HUD and aim-bot interface he should have little issues targeting your characters and doing his job of blowing up your characters in the sky.

Scar has 0 problem with outright blitzing characters faster than Bucky and Ironman. Scar can even blitz Edward and Alphonse who have the minigun feat which is faster than Bucky's feat here. And Kars and Sing are even faster than that. And like I said in my first post, Aimbot doesn't matter when your opponents can literally dodge an attack after it is fired. And Ironman's other HUD options such as the Siri combat adaptation he used against Captain in Civil war has already been countered by me in my previous post.

The Beast was able to blitz both landlords at the same time here. And does it to each of them more times during the video. The landlords are portrayed narratively to be equal to each other. Kind of like Bucky and Captain.

One of the landlords was able to move so fast 2 harpist assassins couldn't react to him, here he moves in between them without them noticing. He then proceeds to casually demolish them in combat while presumably half asleep.

The harpists individually can scale to one of the 3 masters in Kung Fu Hustle . These "3 masters" are the mid tiers of Kung fu Hustle and are equal in strength due to a sparring session they had which I can show on request.

Now the scaling goes that the harpists later on in the video have a harp which can fire Sound based attacks (Mach 1). Now there is some context here. There are 2 of the "3 masters" featured in this fight, one is the hand to hand guy who wears the arm rings at the beginning and one is the spear wielder.

Now it may not look like it at first glance but the arm ring guy can actually react to the sound based attacks even at close range. Some of the sound based attacks are actually portrayed like sound... Something you can't really see well in real life.

Here one harpist fires a barely visible sound attack, and the arm ring master only starts reacting to it when it is up close to his face

It may be difficult to notice but if you look at that timestamp and then use the "," and the "." keys of your keyboard to go frame by frame, you can just slightly see what looks like a tiny sound needle flying right to left towards the guy's head from close range. He could only possibly start reacting from that range because the attack being literal sound is a bitch to see. He then dodges more of the sound attacks and blocks one on reaction as well.

So the arm ring guy doing this feat many times is already several times more impressive than Iron man. And one harpist scales to him, and Landlord was able to blitz 2 harpists and then casually manhandle them while half asleep, and then The Beast casually blitzes both Landlords.

Now at one point in the video Arm Ring master actually gets tagged by sound fists punching him, But again the attacks are a bitch to see (They are shaded blue so the audience can see them, but you can clearly see that when the fists get close they go invisible). That is just one low end instance of him getting attacked by the sound attacks after reacting to so many after they were being fired as shown in prior points of the scene. The fists are also big in surface area compared to the needle he dodged before and there were several so it was much harder to dodge.

That being said though, right after that scene the spear master gets in and reacts very very well to the attacks, this is because he actually has a weapon that can deflect the sound attacks unlike Armring who's weapon (The arm rings) got destroyed. Now the spearmaster and the arm ring master are portrayed as equals.

So all in all Sing can blitz 2 characters who each individually can blitz 2 characters who perform better feats than Bucky and Ironman. And Scar can blitz 2 characters at once who perform feats better than Ironman. And Scar himself reacted to plane guns that were faster than Falcon's trashy smg at a much closer range.

So yes, Ironman is wayyyyyy too slow. He can't tag any of my team in any way, his bombardment doesn't matter. Furthermore the only attack he has that can hurt my team is the tank destroying missile which logically has limited ammunition, and Ironman has never spammed those in his numerous movies. I will elaborate on this more when I get to it.

Now this is impressive, but the fact that he even got downed by a tank hitting him means he didn't exactly no sell or shrug it off. It obviously had some sort of effect on the armor.

All in all with these feats I am willing to believe that Scar would take some time to KO Iron Man, and wouldn't necessarily be a one shot. But Kars with his Hamon conduction and Light blade for sure is carving through this in one hit or/and fries Tony by conducting hamon through the suit. Sing Buddha Palm KO's this no problem.

My opponents forgetting that Edward and Luther exist, you think they are just going to stand around. Your teams going to be bombarded with attacks and Tony can simply play keep away or enter supersonic speeds for attempt bullrushing. Buddha Palm he still needs to hit a constant moving target in-mid air which you can't prove

Again I will say that supersonic bullrushing is fodder to my team, since it is not even mach 2. Edward and Luther ain't standing around but that doesn't mean that Iron man himself is almost if not literally a non factor in this fight. My team also has 3 members, and the fact that one of yours is so weak means that your other 2 members really have to carry here.

Just because Edward and Luther exist, doesn't mean my arguments against Tony's worth as a team member is just automatically debunked.

The Buddha Palm is like AOE and in addition to that it comes out fast enough that the Beast can't react, seriously. Are you really gonna argue that for some reason Iron man is gonna dodge it?

I guess you can make the argument that Tony technically can dodge it if my team were far enough away from yours... But if my team were that far away that even Iron man can dodge the buddha palm which has AOE size of a building and can tag the beast. I don't think any of your team's attacks can hit my team either.

and even if he did the tank feat suggests he can tank a few of these, enough time to simply blow up your team.

WHAT? So you are saying Tony tanking a tank shell is comparable to being able to tank the Buddha palm? I am not going to even comment that much further on this point here. I think it is obvious to the reader that Tony tanking the tank shell does not put him anywhere near being able to not get KO'd by one Buddha palm let alone several.

Now you showed Iron man firing the tank destroying missile. I will elaborate on my explanation yet again, that weapon has limited ammunition, can be dodged easily or intercepted by Kars' shells and Ironman in his numerous movies has never spammed this, meaning there is no proof the fire rate is that good. You tried to debunk this in your 2nd post but made an obvious error which I will talk about later.

Ok im not gonna lie I will agree that this level of DC would in fact be at the tourney cap.

That being said though the actual anti tank missile has weaknesses which make it absolutely negligible in this fight.

The second is that after the missile hits there is lag time until it explodes, It is around 2 seconds if you watch the gif or the same scene on youtube. That is a shit load of time and anybody that gets hit by it can easily toss it out. This is assuming they even get hit by this attack.

My opponent here claims that Tony's missiles have a time delay on them that he can't simply just fire explosives that activate on demand, here I am going to disprove this notion by showing numerous examples of Tony using missiles that blow up on demand and with full knowledge an preparation he can simply just switch time delays of.

Here is where you made an incredibly obvious error. Tony obviously has different types of missiles and not all of them have the same properties. Showing that one type of missile has no time delay does not show that the specific missile type which blew up the tank has no time delay.

(1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)Tony has used missiles numerous times and he has shown to be capable of choosing between activating them on demand or setting a timer on them, some may wonder though why he decided to not use one that explodes on demand against the tank and that was simply for the sake of dramatic effect/show of a badass scene but is of no indication that he can't use on-demand explosives. So as far as I can tell Tony still blows up your team out of the sky.

Ok, well let me go through all 7 examples. Some examples have one problem. And that is that they are not the same missile type.

Let us compare scan number 1 to the tank destroying missile. Now my question to you is.

The missiles shown in Scan number 1 match do not match the tank destroying missile. Meaning they are different, and you cannot assume that the tank destroying missile can be spammed like the ones that Ironman are shown spamming such as the shoulder missiles and the leg ones in scan 2, nor can you assume the tiny missiles shown in Scan 1 are tank destroying level.

I will admit though that for scans 6 and 4 the missiles appear to indeed by the tank shell missile due to them being fired from Tony's wrist. But it is obvious that these missiles cannot actually be spammed, since again I will remind there is logically a limited supply of ammunition of this specific missile in his wrists.

I do not deny that Tony can spam other types of missiles such as the tiny ones in Scan 1. But Tony's missile supply in general, even for the tiny spammy ones would be limited. So you cannot spam these for long at all, and you still have not debunked my team simply dodging these attacks.

Note that the spammable missiles (Which are limited in ammo anyways) such as the shoulder missiles have no feats to put them on the level of hurting my characters. So my team and Kars with full knowledge can just outright tank those specific missiles with no problem and then can deal with the rest.

Furthermore, since you have not proven that the missiles are even Mach 2. Kars reacts and intercepts them by firing his feathers which harden into shells , nullifying them.

Unlike Ironman, Kars regens his feathers or simply grows new ones. So he has a far less limited supply of these to counteract your own missiles. Furthermore, Scar can just teleport the team on reaction. Sing with his insanely higher reflexes can palm the missile before it gets close enough that the resulting explosion can do much damage. In fact, the wrist missile has an obvious visual cue, that being a missile rising out of Tony's wrist.

Sing with his ludicrous reflexes I will argue can in fact react when Tony's wrist raises a missile, and he can then fire his buddha palm so that it explodes the missile when it hasn't gotten too far away from Tony, resulting in Tony's own missile exploding in his face.

I will even go as far as to argue that as soon as Tony arms the missile on his wrist (Tony has to bring out the missile from his wrist before firing it) Sing buddha palms it before Tony's reflexes allow him to fire the missile, meaning the explosion is point blank to tony before he can even fire it.

Sing's reflexes are just that much superior, and I think the readers can see why I think it is reasonable to argue this.

Every single member of my team has a way to out my entire team against Tony's missiles.

The third is that Sing blows it away with his buddha palm. Even if you argue it explodes when hit by the buddha palm (Why did it not explode immediately when it hit the tank then?) Sing has enough reflexes to palm it before it gets close. Since my team has full knowledge they have full knowledge of the nature of this missile and so they will deal with it accoringly.

Forgetting Luther and Edward exist how's he going to deal with such a bombardment of attacks?,

I mean it goes both ways dude, you are forgetting Scar and Kars exist. The two can handle your other 2 characters. I can even wager that Kars with his regen, Hamon and stats has no trouble against Edward and Luther all at once. I will go into this later on in my counters towards the other 2 characters.

So while the 2 (Or just Kars) handles your other 2 characters. Sing can just palm in the direction of ironman and destroy the missiles in its path, effectively KOing Tony and destroying his missiles. And then he turns back to help the others.

Or, Sing can even fight your entire team by himself. And I will elaborate on this later on as well.

you haven't shown Sing spamming these palms fast enough to take down the hell storm of attacks heading at you from every direction, whilst your team may have full knowledge that doesn't tell you which attacks are simply ones tasked of distracting you from the tank missile ones.

I already argued its spamming Speed. All he has to do is do a naruto hand sign then extend his palm. He can do this at Tourney cap speeds. I have already stated this in my previous post. You have provided no arguments against this in your post. You are just ignoring my arguments outright and not providing any reasoning or logic or evidence as to why they are wrong.

I want to comment that although I do not dispute the authenticity of this ability. I want to say that Tony is the only one who can properly see Scar, and he does not have the speed to react to him.

Already addressed above.

This was not addressed above. If you actually took a closer look at your scans you being someone with knowledge of FMA would be able to know Ironman isn't even Beginning of Series Edward Level, let alone someone who can blitz BoS Edward and Alphonse.

In this video it shows that after Cap is able to mount him the countermeasures to fight patterns become mute. As he is in a situation too disadvantageous for the fight pattern reading to matter.

Tony needed knowledge on his fight patterns before he could initiate countermeasures and here he's given full knowledge which provides him and the AI with everything they need, so Tony still uses this to find most optimal route of attacking your team.

You just missed the point of the argument. I said, that with a substantial enough advantage over Tony his fight pattern algorithm becomes negligible. And this is clearly shown in the video linked above, at the beginning of the video Tony analyzes fight pattern of captain america, and then when he gets mounted and is at a disadvantage it doesn't mean jack.

Everything else my opponent has said about the power of Tony's other weapons is of little relevance since there only purpose is to discombobulate the enemy backed up alongside Luther & Edward long enough to land clean tank explosive hits.

It actually is pretty darn relevant when you consider that with every other weapon getting countered. And you providing nothing to refute my debunks of these other weapons. It means the only relevant weapon Tony has is his Tank explosive missile.

The tank explosive missile btw, is a projectile you have never once even tried to prove that they are fast enough to tag my team. Your only argument is that "Luther and Edward distracts" essentially. And even then that falls apart when you consider that my team also has 3 people.

Each of my team members individually has a way to nullify Tony's missiles completely, whether it is interception with shells, Fast palming, or teleportation. One of the members can handle the tank missile, or /and KO tony before he can even fire it, and the other 2 can deal with this "Distraction" of the other 2 members.

Luther Strode Counters

You are right in saying that it is several meters apart, and although this feat is impressive for the common street leveler, it pales in comparison to what my team can do. Let us be very generous and assume the bullet was travelling at the high end of 520m/s.

Now look at The Beast's feat: https://youtu.be/GMQSJ9x9fMc?t=146

If we assume the ultra lowball of 180m/s for the Beast's gun (It is ultra lowball because modern articles put the gun at 190m/s, but im lowballing to 180m/s for the sake of argument). You can see that the distance is literally point blank. In fact, I would say it is like around 9 times less distance than your feat.

It seems my opponent has taken a lowball approach to saying this feat isn't impressive(even though it's only the first early on feat I used) but to address this I'll also bring up the feat again here

No Caption Provided

This looks to my definition that this feat was pretty much point blank, only less than a couple feet apart and considering the gun used here was a lot faster I only don't see how this feat ain't comparable to your characters in speed. Keep in mind Librarian performed this feat "casually" to at that so it's quite obvious he's a lot faster. Now we have different interpretations for what point blank is but this to me should fit among that spectrum. My opponents suggests that distance makes this feat unimpressive even though it was only a couple feet like don't ya see the contradictory here, they were literally an average couch distance apart lol.

Yes, I will agree that it would technically be point blank distance, but the distance itself is still around 9 times the distance the Beast reacted to his revolver.

You never disputed this. Now you can argue the Librarian was casual, but so was the Beast who caught his bullet with his fingers.

My opponents suggests that distance makes this feat unimpressive even though it was only a couple feet like don't ya see the contradictory here, they were literally an average couch distance apart lol.

"Impressive" and "unimpressive" are usually used in relation to something else. This feat is impressive if we compare the Librarian to regular humans for example. What I actually argued in my post was that it was unimpressive compared to my characters. Sing is much faster for reasons you have not disputed. And Kars can react to mach 2 fire from multiple sources and angles at a similar distance.

You never really disputed the speed of my characters, if I am being frank the speed that I argued my characters at is grounded in solid evidence all the way back in Post 1. I was simply saying this feat was unimpressive compared to them, and I have provided arguments which you haven't even tried to directly dispute.

1. Sing is reacting to Mach 2.8 attacks. Your gun is at most Mach 1.51 if we go by the highball of 520m/s which would be unfair but im gonna do it for sake of argument.

Concrete proof that Sing's attacks are Mach 2.8 so specifically?

I mean I already did in my first post, and I repeated the same argument in my 2nd post. And you didn't directly dispute anything I argued in both of those posts. You have had 2 posts to dispute Sing's speed and you haven't even tried to do so. This is just pointless skepticism. If you are going to be skeptical then provide some logic as to why my line of reasoning and evidence to Mach 2.8 Sing is wrong. Go through my 2 posts again, or at least go through the speed section of my first post for Sing. And tell me what you think is wrong with my reasoning.

Now of course, since your next post is going to be your third post. I think it is fair if I am allowed a 4th post which at least allows me to respond to brand new arguments. If you are going to suddenly provide a new argument against my character's capabilities when you basically accepted it throughout the entire debate at this point. I deserve a chance to defend my characters when you are just going to suddenly dispute them in your 3rd post.

an your estimate for the Librarian feat is inaccurate when you failed to observe the short couch distance between the 2

I mean if we use the length of the couch is kind of a bad reference due to various things like me not knowing the length of the couch. If you want to calculate the metrics and variables of your feat then you should have done it yourself. But for the sake of debate I will do it for you using a better estimate than the couch.

The average human arm is 63.5 cm

doing some pixel measurement with paint I arrived at around 1.6 meters for the distance

The distance for the Beast feat would be around 15cm to 20cm due to the length of the revolver barrel used being 15cm

So we have the distance between this feat being 8-10 times shorter than this feat give or take.

Of course.... If you can dispute these calculations you can just analyze your feats yourself and prove why my conclusions are wrong.

and as you said the gun being 3 times faster that would place the feat within the mach 2 spectrum wouldn't it not,

I said that as a generous highball. I also said that in reality you shouldn't be highballing. In reality if you are being reasonable you should at most only use the midball. Which is not 3 times faster than the Beast's revolver.

Now "Mach 2 spectrum" is vague. Since dodging projectile feats depend on distance as well. That is how you can dodge way faster rounds if the distance is high enough.

I will use more specific language. And say that it is not equivalent to reacting to a mach 2 projectile at the range Sing reacts to the Beast's attacks (CQC range) . The feat should not be anything impressive compared to what my team can do.

well your gonna have to show some evidence to your calcs otherwise they are head-canon and unreliable.

I mean if you want to nitpick my evidence then it goes both ways. I have presented more comprehensive evidence throughout my post than you have.

Even without doing specific calcs you can just eyeball the distance The beast fired the gun, and then eye ball the distance in the librarian scan and see The Beast's distance is several times larger.

The Librarian already saw the direction the gun was pointing at, so it is much much easier to dodge and react to, since you already know the direction of the bullet and which way to dodge. All that is left is reacting to the bullet coming out. Sing on the other hand was fighting a martial artist, and so the martial artist's attacks are less predictable. Its not like a gun where you know the direction of the bullet by looking at the direction of the barrel.

What?, how does seeing the gun make any difference. The gun wielder aimed the weapon right at his face, was couch distance apart and fired AFTER it moved and at point blank. These levels of speed and beyond would apply to all method users so they would need to be that fast in order to land attacks on each other so I don't see where your getting at here.

I pretty much explained my reasoning in the same paragraph. It makes a difference compared to Sing's feats. The reasoning is literally in that paragraph.

Librarian saw the gun pointed at him, so he knew what was about to come. And he knew the direction the bullet was going to come. Fighting a martial artist however is harder on your reflexes assuming the attacks are the same speed since you can't tell the direction they are coming at initially, and you would have to determine the direction as you are reacting.

3. The distance he is reacting at on top of that is several times shorter than the Librarian feat.

Even IF I admit Beast's feat may be better it ain't so much so than Luther wouldn't keep up,

I mean you pretty much have to admit the Beast's feat is better because you have provided no arguments or evidence of your own. You are just saying skepticism without providing any annotations or evidence against my scans. You haven't even outlined a reason as to be skeptical about the stats I put my characters at at all.

Now I have provided a substantiated argument in my 2nd post already, and even feats posted in my 1st post illustrate why Luther cannot keep to Sing if we just go by this Librarian feat. I will repeat them here again.

1. Sing reacts to the Beast's attacks at CQC range easily. The beast's attacks when ULTRA lowballed are mach 2.8 . When they are only "normally" lowballed you get more than Mach 2.95, I specifically got Mach 2.99

2. This Librarian feat was done at more than the range Sing was reacting to the Beast's attacks. You can watch Sing vs The Beast and visually confirm with your eyes yourself.

3. So higher speed combined with shorter distance makes him several cuts above the feat shown here. Now you have more feats so I am going to respond to them too

especially since he grows stronger throughout the series. Again this is one of the earlier showings which if anything speaks volumes if this feat is debatable against this one.

Ok so you can simply just show the better feats then. Just show the better feats. You wasting time with this librarian feat just needlessly lengthens the debate.

The earnest is on you to prove that this is a legitimate feat where Luther avoids bullets on reaction since it is your character and you were the one who first provided this scan.

Now that being said, I will provide arguments against this feat.

As you can see on the first panel up top Luther is actually inside the room, you can see his legs. He then begins moving on the 2nd panel. Note that this has to be an aim dodge feat unlike the actual true reaction dodge feat that the Librarian did. The reason I deduce this is that if you look at the yellow sparks, there are some on the walls.

What I am trying to say is, is that the people shooting at Luther are prostitutes, and they do not really have the best aim. If they actually could aim, they would have hit Luther. The yellow sparks on the wall prove this. Those are bullets hitting the wall behind Luther. They just missed. If they were actually aimed at Luther, he would have been hit since he is in front of the wall.

Furthermore, my image is annotated with 2 bullets circled in red, they appear to be behind Luther as well. Meaning this is pretty much mostly an aim dodge feat.

Even if we take the feat seriously, it is important to note that the vast majority of the women are carrying pistols which are not impressive to dodge at this distance. It is also ambiguous whether the people who actually carry rifles were even aiming properly at Luther at all.

Overall compared to the Librarian feat this is actually less impressive, the Librarian feat was unambiguous, we have a panel where a gun was pointed at him, a panel where the gun was fired but the Librarian hasn't moved yet, then a panel where he dodges the flying bullet. Unambiguous.

Due to the nature of the feat and the reasons I lay out, I think there is too much evidence for skepticism to take this feat as anything impressive.

Knew you was going to try and downplay this feat, to which I can counter all of this easily. What my opponent is saying here is nothing more than blatant head-canon in an desperate attempt to try and disprove Luther Strode characters

I want to state what I said in my Ironman section above, I don't "Downplay" or "lowball" for the sake of it. If I find someone misrepresenting a feat or arriving at a wrong conclusion. I feel I have the write to dispute their claims with evidence. I find that it is good to do so and it gets people to the truth. This is shown in my debunks to Iron man where even you agreed with some of my arguments.

Now you are misrepresenting me by saying that I am desperate to lowball Luther Strode. It should be obvious to people that I have Sing who is pretty much at the cap of the tourney already, and you have made no actual substantiated dispute of this at all.

for some reason can't dodge bullets which is contradicted by the very first feat I've shown,

Nonononono, you miss the point.

I never said that Luther Strode characters cannot dodge bullets. The closest thing I ever claimed to that was at the beginning where I made the author statement. But then I retracted my statement by acknowledging the validity of the Librarian feat in the same post.

So in the end I have proven that I have acted in good faith, and that my opinion can change when presented with evidence.

What I did claim was that this specific feat was an aim dodge mostly if not entirely. Please stop misrepresenting me.

Tom has no concrete evidence that the bullets were aim dodged, but to further break this down.

I presented evidence in the paragraph you are responding to. And I even marked the scan in areas of interest. This is more thorough evidence and a more substantiated argument than anything you have actually posted in this entire debate.

They are in a small room with people armed to the brim wdith machine guns all lined and pointed at in Luthers direction in this small room,

This is an exaggeration. And it can be easily debunked if even the most casual readers would just check the scan

No Caption Provided

As you can see. If you simply look at the top panel. Only 2 women, 2nd woman to the left of the man, and 3rd woman on the right of the man are carrying machine guns. And the machine guns they are carrying are not high caliber. They are actually SMGs which have muzzle velocities no faster than that of normal pistols (Smgs are literally defined as automatic weapons which fire pistol rounds. The speed of a bullet is actually dependent on the cartridge, so the fact that it is a weapon which fires pistol rounds means the speed is pistol speed. In fact a good example of SMG speed is the SMGs used by Falcon in your post which are only mach 1.2, not faster than a regular modern pistol) .

all bullets hurling in Luthers direction looking pretty clear based on the way it's shot making it so he couldn't have simply just aim dodged them since several dozens upon dozens of bullets were fired, this can't be anything else but bullet timing an to say otherwise would be ignorance of a normal human aim dodging and a metahuman shown prior to dodge bullets so why would future instances be any different and them being prostitutes doesn't change anything and is just further head-canon.

Actually you are correct, I am willing to believe that Luther did in fact dodge some of these pistol rounds on pure reflex, and weaved through them.

That being said, all of the bullets fired here are from pistols or SMGs (which also fire pistol rounds).

Meaning the bullets would just be around mach 1.2 ish which isn't impressive to dodge.

Now my opponent tries to go for a cheap shot in saying Jack flexed on Luther in speed and whilst yes he was proven to indeed be faster not so much so that Luther couldn't react to him as if anyone has read LS they would know Luther starts adapting to Jack's speed not only in there first instance but in there rematch to. It's made quite clear that later on Jack didn't prove to be so fast that Luther would not be capable of reacting to him at all, which he does in numerous instances.

So I've proven that Luther is relative to Jack in speed being capable of reacting to his attacks, thus speed feats Jack may have performed should scale to Luther.

Blatant downplay, And what are you actually talking about. He WAS distracted fighting Luther the whole time an not paying any attention to anything else around him, any character in fiction that has high speed reactions and no super spider-sense can get tagged by bullets if they don't see them coming. So Jack ain't slow and this is nothing more than another attempt of head-canon to disprove LS characters can dodge bullets which is wrong, as I've proven that Luther's capable of reacting to Jack I'll go right ahead and show more speed feats of Jack to show Luther would be comparable to.

This is also quite fair. I will admit that I was wrong about Luther not scaling to Jack. I will comment though that the feat you shown before was him dodging pistol rounds from a couple of meters away. He waved through many of them but its not that impressive since it is around mach 1.2 at a couple of meters away. Luther in Book 2 should be faster so I am going to look at your feat.

Legend of LS Issue #5

Pretty blatant, clear cut bullet timing at pretty close and similar distance to the LS one we had discussed earlier, however pay more attention the 2nd half panels on the bottom is where things get actually even more impressive. Jack just outright deflects the bullets casually at point blank, less than a door apart whilst taunting and playing around. As I've already proven Luther is relative to Jack in speed. Now these I'd say would easily be a mach 2-2.5 spectrum feat an whilst I am aware the level of speeds my opponent is arguing his characters at these should still proof enough that Luther can keep pace, my opponents characters lack the same body-move reading abilities that Luther Strode has which basically more than compensates for that.

The guns Petra are using are not that fast. The machine gun she is using is similar to if not literally the Thompson gun which has muzzle velocity of 285m/s . Remember, SMGs are not faster than pistols they are equal.

So Jack moving faster than that Thompson gun is not in the mach 2-2.5 spectrum.

Now that being said, I notice that you have the point blank feats which are pretty fair. And I will acknowledge Luther scaling to him and being able to keep up with Kars and Sing

I will be skipping over the Shooter argument since it will get us nowhere , and I will also skip over the warehouse mercs and you have proven Luther's speed so that is fair. Mach 2-2.5 reflexes is fair ballpark for Luther I will admit.

Now we move on to the strength section

The warehouse was busted, more head-canon based on how long it took which you don't know. The sheer force coming from both the combatants energy output had to be relative enough to destroy it otherwise it wouldn't have been destroyed at all.

That is false, when given enough time. Characters can destroy above their capacity if given enough time. If there is a character that can destroy a building in one shot. If you give them enough time they can end up destroying every building in town. That doesn't mean they are town level. So yes in the course of a fight Luther can destroy the warehouse.

Now you have blatantly ignored the 12 scans that I posted in my post, detailing Librarian and Luther's strength which was like wall level.

So I don't see where he is lacking in damage output. We don't know the exact time in-between the panels but based on how in one panel the warehouse was stable and in the next it was completely destroyed it couldn't have been more than several seconds.

He is lacking in damage output because of 2 combinations of reasons which I detailed in my 2nd post.

1) in the 12 comic pages prior you can obviously see his level of fighting was wall level.

2) You can't claim that destroying the warehouse overrides and contradicts the 12 scans prior showcasing wall level fighting. Because it makes sense that Luther and Librarian would given enough time be able to collapse the warehouse.

Either way you slice it destroying the warehouse like this would have to put his striking output within building spectrum.

Nononono, Striking within the building spectrum means when he does one strike it busts a building. Meaning, in one punch he can destroy the house I live in.

The 12 comic pages I posted in my 2nd scan of the entire fight of Luther vs Librarian was him showing wall level striking, since every time he strikes or does an attack that singular attack does that much damage. Of course over time it can accumulate and destroy a building. But I think most people wouldn't call that building level.

Compare this to Sing who with one attack destroys a building sized portion of an apartment complex. Or Kars who can tank a plane crashing into him (Which would destroy ET's reference house for the tourney cap). And Kars using Hamon could also hurt your team as well and his pure strength is no joke, being 950kg/cm^2 in just grip strength.

Note that this is actually pseudo precog , it is not actually hard precog as explained by one of the authors.

He can only see all the possible moves , but he has to calculate which one is most likely. This is why initially he couldn't read the Librarian , its because it is just pseudo precog. If he is against someone with vastly higher statistics he won't be able to use this practically. Its just too fast and unless you have actual hard precog where you know 100% what your opponent is going to do, it makes negligible difference.

Even against the Librarian, when he actually is able to "see" and pseudo precog him. He still gets tagged by the Librarian and they have a decent fight. And Kars and Sing are hilariously above that. It only tells him the possibilities but he has to guess which possibility is the one that is going to be picked.

Furthermore, body reading doesn't really work on Alchemy for obvious reasons you should know since you are debating an FMA character.

Feats >>>> Author quotes so all of this is not only invalid but a complete waste of time, the feats on panel themselves completely contradict what Jordan says and as I've already said he has no idea what he talks about so a desperate attempt of lowballing by using this as a only means of dealing with it won't hold any water and what "can only see all possible moves" LMAO. And he couldn't read the Librarian because he was still in training and learning how to use his abilities, that entire sequence was literally Librarian getting Luther to accept who he is an to further awaken his inner talent by having him accidently killing his mother, which triggered the ability. Right after that he could body-read Librarian just fine.

But I'll pull a page out of your book just as you tried to do with lowballing his speed. I confirmed the OP that I'm allowed to use feats from book 3 to debunk any misconceptions.

If this isn't anymore blatant then I don't know what is, it outright shows every possible move your opponent makes just as I've said. Now this is obviously in book 3 but the general point should still stand. There is no "has to calculate most likely" as it shows him every outcome, so if opponent makes x move he'll know it before they make it. Aside from the unreliable Jordan quote my opponent attempted to use which is contradicted by the feats shown within the story, everything else my opponent said here was baseless head-canon and a show of ignorance of the series. Thus far my opponent has shown nothing of Kars or Sing to proof that they can counter body-move reading.

Note that this is actually book 3, and you cannot extrapolate that Books 2 and 1 Luther Strode can do the same. In prior issues Luther's precog is portrayed differently.

1) This is him before improving under Librarian. He sees several possibilities of where the High school guy goes. He later tags him

2) After improving under the librarian he can detect Method users. However he still sees only several possibilities. He does not know exactly what his opponent is going to do next.

So no, you cannot use Book 3 feats and extrapolate and assume that Book 2 Luther can do the same with his precog. There is a noticeable difference between portrayal of his precog in prior volumes.

Also note that the author statement was made somewhere 7 years ago (2014) whilst Legacy of Luther Strode, the volume you are using as reference for your argument was released in 2015.

What this means is that the Author statement doesn't actually contradict anything. Since it was made in 2014, and then Legacy (Where Luther has gotten stronger) was released in 2015. Meaning he was talking about the series that was already published, Meaning he was talking about Book 1 (Released in 2011) and Book 2 (Published from 2012 to 2013).

This author statement is pertains to the Luther Strode you are using. Since you can't use Book 3.

Now as for Kars and Sing. I will provide arguments with the assumption that Luther's precog is actually exact precog. Kars can do attacks that would clip Luther even if he can predict it. He can simply spam his Feather shells like I have shown all the way back in post 1. The Feather shells are as fast as Machine gun fire and stronger than them since they are fast enough to intercept them after they are fired, and are also strong enough to no sell them. Kars can also amp these with Hamon as well.

Now that being said. I understand that you put Luther at Mach 2.2 - 2.5 which I will accept since you have provided sufficient evidence. That being said that doesn't mean he can avoid all of the feather shells if they are spammed in all directions even with exact precog. These shells are several dozens bigger than bullets so they are several times harder to weave through. It is harder to weave through bigger projectiles.

Kars also cannot realistically be touched by Luther since Hamon will in fact one shot.

Now as for Sing, Sing does not really need precog. He has reacted to the Beast's attacks which are essentially speaking the tourney cap. So the best case scenario even if we assume exact precog is that Luther and Sing just continuously block each other's strikes.

However that being said. Sing has the Buddha Palm which is AOE, meaning just because Luther sees it coming, it doesn't mean he can actually avoid it since it is AOE and it would clip him regardless of whether he sees it or not.

Another important thing is that Luther really isn't that physically strong. Yes, his fight with the librarian showed him destroying a warehouse after some time fighting. However this does not prove that he can just level a building with a single punch, since the warehouse was destroyed throughout an entire fight.

The 12 comic pages prior to the warehouse scan show Luther and Librarian's strikes are not actually building level, they are far far below it. You and readers of this debate can look at the scans themselves they are in my Luther section in my 2nd post.

Attacking your Plan

I want to clarify something. You have shown no feats suggesting that Thermal vision can actually see across an entire area the span of the distance between our starting locations. Look at how big the battlefield is in the OP.

You showed Tony stark zooming in on things at a distance, but that doesn't see through buildings and walls. Thermal vision sees through walls but the range is not good.

Head-canon, you have no evidence to disprove Tony can use thermal vision long distances.

I mean it is your character, and the thermal vision and zoom vision are different abilities of the suit and you have never shown him using both at once. I was just stating a fact. You've never shown a feat of him doing both at once.

Are Ironman's missiles even the same speed as the bullets Kars dodged? They are not since they are animated as very slow compared to bullets in the scans you posted. Even if they were, Kars can dodge airplane bullets from relatively close range. Ironman's projectiles get easily dodged at long range. Remember distance matters. If Ironman wants a chance to hit, he will have to get close which is a death sentence.

The way they are animated is only done for cinematic effect it makes little sense why Tony's advanced weaponry would be slower than even primitive century-year old guns.

You ignored my question, are Ironman's missiles even the same speed as the bullets Kars reacted to?

Do you even have an opinion or calculation as to the speed of these missiles? Or are you going to assume they are faster than century year old guns. Which is a blatant logical fallacy. Because bullets play by different mechanics than rocket propelled stuff. Bullets are light and so when shot they can reach very high speeds despite the explosive behind their launch being comparatively little in energy.

Black Powder muskets have a max speed of about 370m/s , these are muskets btw. RPG 7 a more modern technology has a max speed is 300m/s.

So the question stands. Are Ironman's missiles even the same speed as the bullets Kars dodged?

So my argument still stands, The missiles are slow as heck. Since they are your character's missiles. You should have the burden of proof to prove if they are even fast. You have shown 0 proof of their speed, so the only thing I can go off is the animation. Which is slow. When there is no other proof, the only thing you can go by is animation. And the animation tells me it is subsonic.

The aim bot targeting doesn't mean he can hit targets which can literally dodge these projectiles on reaction. Aim bot only makes you aim so that you are pointing in the right direction. But once the projectile is fired any movement the target does will not be accounted for. I can have the perfect aim when shooting a target with an arrow for example. I can be so good I hit the bullseye, But if the target moves after I fire the arrow I can miss all the same.

The aim-bot still goes a long way when you throw into the equation of Luther, Edward and all the other attacks being thrown your way. Fight patterns companied with full knowledge will only make it that much easier to execute.

Ok think about it this way. Every single one of my characters is fast enough to react to things faster than Ironman's relevant projectiles (Basically only missiles, and only the tank missiles and no other missile variant) when perfectly aimed.

Characters who would get blitzed many times over by Sing are able to dodge attacks that are actually the speed of sound. And they can do it at close up range since the attacks are nearly invisible otherwise. And the attacks by the way were perfectly aimed by the harpists. They were just dodged after they were fired.

BoS Edward reacted to a perfectly aimed minigun fire. And Scar blitzed both BoS Alphonse and Edward.

Kars also reacted to machine gun fire from multiple sources, and they were all aimed properly at Kars.

Aiming properly makes 0 difference here.

So your only argument here. Is that Luther and Edward will come in and save the day. Well my team has 3 members as well. Not all 3 of them have to focus on Iron man, we can have 2 people fight Luther and Edward and oneshot Ironman no problem.

I call lies. I call absolute lies here. Do you honestly think IM dodges anything Sing throws at him? His Buddha palms are fast enough that the Beast couldn't avoid it. Iron Man is not even the same ball park of speed as what is required in a typical speed tourney. The only reason why you even think he can contend is because of the tank feat which is done at ludicrous distances. The only way you can argue Iron Man at even mach 1 combat speed is by ignoring how distance matters, which is not a feature of reality.

Based on his fights with super soldiers who have supersonic speeds

Ok you should calm down here. Bucky reacted to a slower than mach 1.2 projectile from far away. And he dodged by jumping so that the bullets miss him.

The Buddha Palm is area of effect.

Its not like a bullet. With bullets you can usually dodge by shifting your body since bullets are small, all you need is to move your body so that the tiny bullet does not touch your skin. Since bullets are tiny, this is possible.

With the building sized buddha palm. You actually have to move a couple of meters, instead of jumping and shifting your body. On top of that, the Buddha Palm is faster than Falcon's submachine gun.

and capable of piloting his suit at mach speeds companied with fight patterns and aid of Luther and Edward I'd say at a distance he's more than capable enough of avoiding the Palms,

I mean. If he is at such a distance, that he can avoid the buddha palm completely in all its AOE glory. Then that just means our teams are not in range of each other yet.

It is as simple as that, for the distance to be so much that Ironman can avoid the buddha palm it would need to be a range where none of your attacks can hit my team either. Meaning that distance is just beyond the range of combat.

But of course, my team can teleport in or just move into engage in an actual combat distance. In fact I have stated this on multiple occasions but my team will be maintaining optimal distance with the full knowledge we have. The distance to which my team can tag yours and yours can't tag mine.

as my opponent has said himself it's much easier to avoid a hypersonic projectile at a distance and Tony's not going to be up close like the Beast was he will be at a distance simply blowing your team outta the sky with tank-missiles.

Well again, the distance would have to be pretty huge. If this was the case My team can dodge the tank missiles casually anyways. It goes both ways. At high distances my projectiles become more dodgeable and so do yours. And bare in mind. There logically is a limited supply of the wrist tank missiles, so he can't actually spam them the way Edward can spam alchemy or Kars can spam feather shells.

And furthermore, Ironman has not been shown in all his movies spamming the specific missile on the wrist which has the tourney cap firepower. He can spam weaker missiles but not that specific wrist one.

And Kars could go even higher. The buildings are kinda tall. But it is nothing that Kars cannot do. Kars can always maintain a vertical distance of a couple of hundred meters from your team.

If the building is 10 metres tall . Kars can fly 310 meters of altitude to get a distance of 300m , if the building is 100m tall (Something im not willing to believe from the scans in the OP), Kars can fly 410 m of altitude to still maintain the 300 m distance. I am not saying the distance will be 300m, it could be 100, 150 or whatever depending on the optimal distance.

So what difference do the buildings actually make? Do you really think Kars who has 400 IQ and all the intelligence feats I displayed would just stick to a suboptimal altitude and not adapt to whatever your team does?

How's Kars going to keep flying up if the skies are going to be bombarded with explosives from IM

Because Kars can just dodge the tank missile from iron man, and then my entire team can just tank every other missile since the other missiles with 0 damage since they are so weak? They have full knowledge so they know which ones are relevant and which ones aren't.

Sing can Buddha palm them before they get close? Scar can teleport? Kars can on reaction intercept all missiles, even the trashy little ones with his feather shells? Which I have shown in my very first post?

You seem to imagine that my team will somehow get paralyzed and overwhelmed by Ironman's missiles. They won't since only his wrist missiles can do jack to my team. And those logically have limited ammo. And are too slow anyways. They really can only be fired one at a time assuming he can even fire more than one in a reasonable time frame at all. (Only one missile per wrist, it then has to be reloaded. This is how it is portrayed every time he uses it) and Kars can just intercept them with shells.

and if he attempts this it'll also leave your team wide open to bullrushes,

How? Kars is the one who is flying my other 2 members can still react. Even Kars who is flying uses his horn to sense things and react to them.

finally this is a battle meaning you can't simply just stay in the air forever your gonna have to come down and fight my team,

Its still a battle if Sing sends palms down on your team since he is still attacking. Kars with 400 IQ and the intelligence feats you still haven't debunked can calculate the optimal distance using his full knowledge. A distance where your team can't avoid the buddha palm but mine can avoid everything you throw at it or at least intercept, block or nullify in another way.

The buddha palm is AOE, meaning it takes more travelling to actually completely avoid it. Its not like a bullet where you can move your head 10 cm and the bullet misses.

This means combined with the Buddha Palm's Beast level speed the distance where it can tag your team before they can avoid it is relatively large compared to say... The distance at which Iron man's missiles would have to be fired from my team to not be able to nullify.

Ironman with his subsonic missiles would have to fire his missiles literally centimeters away from my team's face for them to be unable to react. I don't have to explain to the readers why this is unrealistic as hell.

I would estimate that Sing can actually fire the buddha palm from more than 10 meters away, and it would still be unavoidable to your team due to the sheer AOE of it. I will elaborate on how I got this calculation later on in the post.

Budda Palms become a lot more ineffective when your firing them at my team from such a far away distance so this strategy if anything is even more counterintuitive not only for Scar but for Sing to.

I mean this goes for literally every projectile. Edward's alchemy, Luther throwing things and Ironman projectiles also become useless if the distance is high enough

You are missing the point of my strategy. My team is going to get close so that the buddha palm is just unavoidable. This distance is also at the same time far enough so that the attacks of your entire team are ineffective against mine due to the distance they have to dodge.

Think about it this way.

The Buddha palm is faster than pretty much every projectile your team has. I have already made my argument for its speed in my 2nd post which you didn't even try to actually dispute. And this said undisputed speed is faster than the speeds at which you argue your projectiles at. And faster than what your scans show of your projectiles whether it be Edward alchemy or Ironman projectiles.

The Buddha palm is aoe and it is building sized AOE. Meaning that in order to avoid it and not get clipped, you have to actually move several meters. This is unlike something like Iron man missiles where you can move centimeters and the missile doesn't hit you.

Meaning, Even if The Buddha palm was actually slow , due to its wide area of effect. It would still be pretty hard to dodge.

My opponent claims here that Edward can't use the materials of the buildings in order to help him and Luther traverse hundreds upon hundreds of feet because they are hollow which I think is really reaching to be honest. We've seen both Ed & Al capable of making so much as even smaller constructs in order to traverse 100s of feet ...

it doesn't necessarily need to come straight from underneath so long as there's sufficient enough material(i.e entire rooftop, sides of a building) to work with then performing this plan should still be feasible,

Actually this is fair enough. It won't really help much though as I have explained in my post. You mention 100's of feet into the air. Well Kars has actual flight meaning his range is a whole lot higher than a couple of hundreds of feet. Inferior life forms like normal birds can reach thousands of feet into their air. So my point honestly still stands.

Furthermore, you mentioned that Edward would propel Luther using Alchemy. It is true that Edward uses Alchemy to launch and fling himself and possibly others upwards. Note that Luther has no teleportation, so if he does it to Luther my team can react and fly out of the trajectory of Luther's Launch. Since Luther has no aerial capabilities he is basically powerless midair since he can't push off the air to move. My team can just circle around Luther and attack him at his back with Sing's Buddha palm or Kars Hamon.

And judging from the scan showing its destructive powers it is nothing compared to the damage Kars took when he was hit by an airplane, then crashed with the airplane into a volcano, then tanked the volcano for little bit. Then saved himself using some air bubble science, then regenned from that lava damage. Kars flies through this it doesn't even register to him honestly. The same goes for Sing. And if it gets really bad Scar on like 2 occasions has deconstructed Edward's alchemy on reaction at much closer ranges. So I really don't see any problem here.

Did I say seriously injure?, no I said pressure to further add fuel to the fire. How's your team exposed to deal with all these attacks, the looming threat of tank missiles?

You did not actually debunk or try to dispute the claims I have made here. You admit that you can't seriously injure them, and you also don't dispute the fact that it doesn't register to Kars who flies through the alchemy and that Sing takes no damage from it.

You also did not dispute the fact that Scar can deconstruct them and therefore nullify them for himself and the entire team.

What this means.... Is that two members of my team can just ignore Edward's existence and they take no damage. They have full knowledge of your team and so they will know to just not care about the alchemy. Especially with Scar there who you don't dispute can just deconstruct the alchemy.

Now I will admit that maybe Scar will have his attention on Edward. But that is the best case scenario in terms of the pressure argument, and it is a one to one trade. Where one of your team members is occupied and one of my team members are occupied, so then it becomes Sing and Kars vs Ironman and Luther.

And Kars dodges all of this, and my team defends against all of this. Sing's buddha palm glides through these projectiles and then One hit KO's your team.

How are you going to dodge throwing projectiles from Luther strode, someone who I have already proven to be fast enough to keep pace with.

Ok let us assume Luther's projectiles are undodgeable for the sake of argument

His strength as shown all the way back in my 2nd post, from the Librarian fight is not anywhere near building level. In fact from the librarian fight it is way below anything Kars and Sing or even Scar can tank. This is illustrated in the 12 pages before the warehouse collapsed.

Now anyway, they are not going to magically hit. So I will assume again for the sake of generosity that Luther is Mach 3 (Which he is not since even you don't argue him here) , the cap of this tourney. Meaning when he throws something it will at max come out at mach 3.

So we have Luther throwing a Mach 3 projectile. Kars can easily react to Mach 2 projectiles from up close. Since we are assuming the projectile is Mach 3 that is less than 50% faster than the guns Kars dodged since they surpass Mach 2.

Meaning, Kars would be able to react to them as long as the distance between Luther and him is 50% higher than the one in the scan. Which honestly speaking is not that much distance. So Luther would have to get real close in order to bypass Kars' reflexes.

Now Sing is faster than Kars.

Now I argued for optimal distance all the way back in my first post. Lets assume that my team flies at twice the distance shown here between Kars and the gun. That is still very freaking close. And Kars would be able to react to Mach 4 here. But I highly doubt your team can dodge the Buddha Palm from this distance due to the Buddha Palm's Aoe making it a bitch to dodge even if you otherwise would be able to do it if it was a bullet of same speed.

Now Scar would in fact have some trouble if we assume the projectiles are Mach 3, but he has his teams to back him up. And if the distance widens at some point and becomes 50% bigger than BoS Edward's minigun feat then he should be very fine.

But of course. This is just me being generous. Even you never actually argued Luther Strode to be Mach 3,

On that note I'm going to further emphasis here just how dangerous Luther's projectile throwing can be as I have already established before. This of course has to do with his body-move reading. Even so far early on as during his training phase and before he even smacked the hero mask on he was utilising this body-move reading in a standard game of dodgeball, as stated it let's him see all possibilities happen before they are initiated so he knew exactly which course to take. From there it was only acting on it an through body-move reading he was able to land the projectile right at his opponents face.

Again like I said, even if we assume that the precog is exact there is no reason from your evidence for me to suggest Luther can hurt Sing or Kars. The precog is not actually exact precog as portrayed in this scan, since it only shows him multiple possibilities. And not the exact option the opponent chooses.

Now obviously, after mastering his abilities, defeating Librarian and becoming the ultimate method user using this will be no issue. Thus far my opponent hasn't provided any counters beyond head-canon(which I've debunked) for this nor do they have any move reading of the sort. Meaning combined with such numerous attacks Luther will easily knock you outta sky with such attacks, now I don't expect stuff like sharp spears or giant boulders to do the trick but it'll at worst daze your team an thus leaving them even more wide open to attacks

I mean its not like Luther is actually building level with a single strike or throw. Your best feat was him bringing down a warehouse over the course of a fight. And the 12 pages prior to that exact warehouse scan, he was showing Attack potency that isn't anywhere near what Kars and Sing have tanked.

So no his projectiles get deconstructed by Kars. And outright tanked by the other 2 members.

Bare in mind that there is a lot of reasonable skepticism I have for the argument of "tank missile spam".

First off, This is iron man before Infinity war. Meaning he doesn't have nano technology which auto reloads his ammunition. He actually has a set amount of ammunition stored in his suit.

Is there a scan which shows that he has enough tank missiles loaded in his suit to be able to spam it? I don't think so. Furthermore, even if he could. Like I said they have 2 second delay so you know how my team deals with that.

Already addressed above, already shown Tony capable of spamming projectiles through numerous instances and with full knowledge no reason why he wouldn't do it here.

You didn't address the point at all. I was specifically talking about tank missiles . Ironman has different types of missiles each with different properties and damage output. You have shown evidence of him spamming weaker missiles. But not the one that can destroy the tank.

That is a little bit of an inaccuracy on my part and I forgot to address teleportation. Sing's palm is still too fast for Edward to react to. And the rest of your team just gets hit. Unless of course you are arguing Edward is nearby to teleport them to by holding them, in which case everybody gets AOE'd.

Ed can react to these just fine from a distance as you've said it's easier to react to projectiles from a distance so going by that logic he should be reacting to these and the only way to land these would be by getting in closer.

Yes, and the team can if they wish actually get just close enough that Edward can't react to these. And at this distance they themselves can react to anything you throw at them. Since none of your projectiles are as fast as the Buddha Palm.

Now this isn't the only strategy btw. Another strategy could just be to one shot the other members of your team, then 3v1 Edward.

I mean he clearly can , it doesnt take any wind up. If you watched the link I posted in Post 1 of Beast vs Sing. You would know this. All he has to do is do a Naruto hand sign with his right arm then extend. Which by the way he can do at Tourney cap speeds. Its not like Sing was even tired or there is anything like body language or facial expressions which even suggests he exerts much effort at all by firing one of these.

Nope, in that video Sing takes around a few seconds to wind up and fire this attack and it seems his hand needs to stay in motion before he can fire another one so they do need wind up time, what I mean by rapid succession I mean something like machine gun firing speeds or how fast Tony can fire his shoulder missiles. Here they certainly don't appear to be that fast.

(I fixed the link btw guys, it was deleted some time after Chronic read it and I posted it in my 2nd post)

And no Chronic, that is cinematic timing obviously, you can easily tell due to the distorted sound effects. He was able to fire another one just as the Beast from that distance was able to reach him.

Beast's travel speed is good enough that he could blitz the Landlady from a respectable distance , and she is equal to the Landlord.

So the time in between palms is not really that much. Now you can maybe argue it is not in the level of automatic gunfire. But the time frame is still hella small. And it is for sure enough to really kill your team.

Dodge, outmanoeuvre, evasive manoeuvres?. As I've shown Tony can react to a tank missile from a distance,

But the tank missile was dodged because it was small compared to the Buddha palm. Tony just had to shift his body a couple of centimeters which is not something he can do against the Buddha Palm.

I have said this several times but my team's plan is to go close enough so that the Buddha Palm will hit. I have repeatedly called this strategy the "optimal distance" strategy so I don't see how you can argue this. The distance would have to be huge for the buddha palm not to hit Tony. And if this was the case, none of your attacks hit either. So this distance where Tony can dodge is essentially non combat distance where they haven't even engaged in combat yet. But the team will just enter combat distance and One shot Tony.

Edward can dodge a bullet being fired at point blank and Luther has outright fought characters that casually dodge gunfire and bullets at point blank so reacting to the Budda Palms from a distance should be relatively simple.

I mean bullets don't take much movement to dodge. If you move your body a couple of centimeters you can dodge a bullet since they are small and not AOE. The buddha palm is both faster than those bullets they dodged and it is AOE so yeah it is not really simple to dodge.

Now of course if the distance is high enough it would be simple dodge I guess. But you would still have to deal with the fact that the Buddha palm is basically invisible. Furthermore, like I have said time and time again if the distance was really that huge. None of your attacks will land either. So my team can just get close enough to fire the Buddha Palm and hit. My strategy revolves around getting just close enough so that the Buddha Palm is unavoidable. This ensures that my team is far enough away that none of your attacks can hit either. Since none of your projectiles are that fast, nor are they several dozen times bigger than missiles and hence takes several dozen times more movement to dodge. The exception is Edward who can make alchemy constructs of a decent area but that as shown in multiple times is negated by Scar. And it gets brutally tanked by Sing who takes no damage, and Kars who also takes no damage.

He shows on sign of fatigue after using two Buddha Palms. What are you trying to say here?

There's no evidence that he can spam em like let's say like this, on that note trying to tag fast opponents from a far distance whilst being bombarded with projectiles make it even harder for him especially since you haven't posted any feats of this tagging a constant moving target not charging at him.

Again you are not considering that distance works both ways. Far distance means that none of your "bombardment" does jack squat either.

Now as for the spamming thing. Yes it cannot be spammed relatively quickly like a machine gun. But the interval is still respectably small. Small enough that he can do it pretty frequently, as proven when he does it before the Beast can even travel several meters.

Yes, and Kim Kardashian doesn't seem to have much wealth. Her net worth doesn't even reach the 100 billion mark like Jeff Bezos just a small portion.

Things are relative. Yes, the buddha palm doesn't cover the entire building I can visually see that. But it is still better than everything you have shown. Kind of like how Kim Kardashian isn't a multi billionaire but is still richer than everyone I know.

The wealth of the land owner is of little relevance, what I'm getting at is it has limited range and with full knowledge my team will know of the Pudda Palm so keeping a distance and abusing persistent firepower is optimal.

I mean if you keep a distance so huge that even your team can fully avoid the buddha palm, none of your projectiles will land on my team either. It goes both ways.

What you should be countering, is what happens when my team moves just close enough that the Buddha palm can hit your team. What would you do then?

Remember, if my team moves just close enough (Which Kars can easily calculate due to having full knowledge) that the Buddha palm becomes just too close to avoid for your team. That distance is still too big for any of your own projectiles to hit. The buddha palm is AOE enough, and fast enough that the maximum distance before your team can dodge it fully is very large relative to the distance my team needs to counter your stuff.

To the readers I've already addressed the LS issue and how Edward & Tony are fast enough to where they can avoid these Palms from a distance.

I won't agree with Tony though for reasons I outlined above

What is your argument for it being slow? Do you even have an opinion of the speed of the palm? If so where do you put it and what evidence proves said opinion?

Readers if we take a minute to overlook the scene again, at 8:49 we see that it takes a few seconds for the Palm to reach the building from that distance

I mean you are fair to use animation. But animation is only used as a last resort when you have no other lines of evidence to point to.

Animation is faulty in the sense that cinematic timing exists and, slow down exists in filming and fiction. So it should only be used as a last resort and is overrided by other lines of evidence.

The line of evidence I have stated multiple times in Post 2 is that it is fast enough that The Beast cannot even attack as it came out. Couldn't even attempt to dodge it or parry it or something. Furthermore the speed of the palm relative to the Beast is also pretty fast.

You can see from these images that the palm comes out very fast relative to the beast's movement. Sing's hand fully extends in first scan, 2nd scan shows the beast's head moves a little bit compared to the air from the palm.

And remember, the Beast's movement speed is fast enough to blitz people, who can blitz people who can dodge and react to Mach 1 attacks that are so hard to see you have to dodge them when they are point blank. And I have already calculated the speed of his movement as like Mach 2.83 ultra lowballed , and mach 2.99 when just normally lowballed.

and based on my opponents strategy he'll be much further away.

I mean honestly from what you have shown even if the distance was the same as the distance between the building and Sing in that clip. Your team won't be able to dodge due to the sheer AOE of the buddha palm. At the same distance my team can react to everything you do.

So no my strategy won't put my characters further away than the distance between the building Sing destroyed and him.

This will be slow in the attacks travel speed based on how long it took for it to reach the building I have no doubt that with prior knowledge my team will be able to avoid these unless if my opponent chooses to fight up close, which Luther can simply blitz via body-move reading an pummel him.

I mean you are being unfair here to be honest. You criticized me for using animation to get an idea of Tony's projectile speed when I had nothing else to go off of. Tony was your character, and you provided no calculation or evidence for how fast Tony's projectile speed was so I had to do all the work. And all I could go off was the animation. And I was criticized by you for it due to "the directors animating them as slow to look cool".

Whilst I gave you actual reasoning for where I put the palm at in my 2nd post. That being it is fast enough to tag Beast before he can react or do any action. And yet you start using audience time and animation as well.

I mean he can still deconstruct everything Luther and Edward throws at him.

Based on what I've shown I'd say Luther is a lot faster than Scar and thus any projectiles(let's say sharp spears made by Ed) he throws at him in conjunction with his body-move reading could very well impale him before he gets the chance to deconstruct.

You never disputed him doing it to Edward though. And that is fair since I won't dispute that if Luther was close enough he could tag Scar.

That being said though. My team will probably be a couple of meters away, probably the distance between the building and Sing in the Buddha palm scene so he should have no problem reacting to Mach 2.5 attacks from Luther.

But the fact that you never disputed him negating Edward's attacks is sufficient for me. Since if Scar negates Edward then that is like a 1 on 1 trade.

Its not "as established". "As established" is like when a statement is validated with evidence, you have posted no evidence to refute any of my claims about the Buddha Palm. You just said some statements, which are not backed by any video or other pieces of evidence. Furthermore, in my first post I had posted a video showing the Buddha Palm, and anyone on who reads it can immediately tell that your claims about it are false and lack substance.

I've already proven that the Budda Palm takes time to travel based on when he used it against Beast, I've proven that he cannot fire these in rapid succession thus there will always be windows for opportunity to exploit, I've established that at a distance and against moving targets it becomes a lot harder for Sing to successfully land em.

You didn't do it in your 1st post though that is what I was responding to. And you are also holding a double standard by criticizing me for going by the way projectiles are filmed, when you are doing it to the Buddha Palm.

As for the buddha palm landing Ive already addressed that

Ok but what matters is how quickly he traverses that long distance. The best legit feat you showed was Librarian feat. Which doesn't even measure travel speed well but reflexes, and even they are sub par.

If he launches at my team he just dies. Too slow and you can't dodge midair since you can't push off anything. So he eats Buddha Palm.

Already addressed above.

You didn't address the fact that he can't dodge midair since he can't push off of anything. If he launches himself at my team Kars can just fly behind him and fire a barrage of Hamon enhanced shells at him and he can't do anything since there is no ground to push off of. He can't even dodge since to move your body that much to dodge the barrage of shells you need to push off of something. Sing could even buddha palm and one shot here.

Yes, but I don't see how this takes away anything from my team. Kars knows to activate it because he has full knowledge.

Irrelevant since he still needs to be up close to use it, my team has full knowledge so they will know how to approach it.

Or he could imbue a projectile with Hamon and then fire it like even Joseph has done. (The narrator said the iron ball had Hamon in it). He could imbue something like his shells.

Except he can't outspeed him, you didn't even post a comparison between Kars feats and Luther feats and argue why Luther is better. You are just assuming Luther is the fastest for no reason. And pseudoprecog means nothing

Luthers body-move reading already addressed, it'll allow him to outspeed him, your character has no counter towards this ability and he ain't fast enough either.

Look even if I assume it is true precog (Which it is not how it was even portrayed before Book 3 with the exception of the falling dish scene) Kars can do attacks that cannot be avoided even if you can see them. Such as a spam of Hamon enhanced shells in a wide angle.

Everybody can out Luther's pseudo precog by simply outstating him. I have already responded thoroughly to Luther's stats and they don't tickle Sing.

Except no one here outstats him, or at least not by enough. Once it again it ain't pseudo precog it literally shows the method user every possible move your going to make before one makes it, don't know why you keep insisting on downplaying this ability be neitherless I've already addressed above.

I will accept that I was wrong about his speed, which even then you only put at Mach 2.5 so that is slower than Sing and comparable to Kars who could individually react to mach 2.1 bullets from multiple angles at close range.

But what I never agreed with you on was his strength and durability. Luther through the course of an entire fight brought down a building. Its not like he can just punch a building and then it topples. You can obviously see this in the 12 pages prior to the warehouse scene where he is seen fighting with Librarian. You never even tried to address this.

I mean already posted evidence and said that Sing and KFH masters can literally just sense people's killing intent and aura so yeah he can just one shot Edward after he senses him. You didn't even try to debunk the sensing btw. Its literally a section called "sensing" in my first post.

Except he can't since he won't be tagging him from a distance, on that note Edward wouldn't even have a murderous aura so I'm not so sure but even then just because Sing can sense someone's killing intent doesn't concretely prove he can tag a constant moving invisible opponent.

I mean if he can sense your general location he can just tag you with AOE which I have proven is fast enough and difficult enough to dodge due to being AOE. And the Landlord and Lady through just aura and not necessarily killing intent.

I would actually argue Scar is more valuable than Edward in this specific scenario here. His greater mastery over deconstruction allows him to neg Edward's and Luther's throwing attacks. So with one member I negate two of your members. And Iron man is slow as heck and gets blitzed so he doesn't count.

Just going to say that Edward knows more of Alchemy than Scar, he's used it numerous times to gain advantages so I don't know what this is about. Scar uses it to kill people yes, that doesn't mean Ed ain't unknowledgeable in deconstruction and no he doesn't neg two members Luther is faster and with body-move reading will tag him and Tony's rapid firing explosives and Edward's spamming construction alchemy.

You didn't address my specific argument. I said, that Scar tactically speaking was more valuable, because with one member. I can negate 2 members. And this is because Scar can just negate Edward's alchemy as it arrives at my team. And you have shown no strength feats for Luther that put him on the level of hurting anybody on my team. Even Luther's throwing gets reacted to by Scar, due to you arguing Luther at mach 2.5 , and the optimal distance strat.

So with just Scar I can protect against all the attacks from the relevant members on your team. And that is not including stuff like optimal distance which Kars will do, and stuff like Buddha Palm deflecting everything except some of iron man's attacks which he is too slow to land anyways.

Not from every direction.

I mean how will you even attack from every direction? I simply don't understand. Are you going to shadow clone and then surround my entire team?

The only thing I can think of is Ironman curving his missiles. Now like I said only his wrist missile can hurt my team in any meaningful way. And that gets dodged casually.

And another possibility would probably be Edward's alchemy? Which gets negated by Scar and Kars and Edward can just tank it.

Anti-Tank Missile Spam?, Luther Strodes building level striking power? these should be sufficient enough.

The anti tank missile specifically has no evidence of being able to be spammed. Other missiles yes, but the anti tank missile specifically no.

Luther Strode does not have building level striking power. He can't punch a building once and have it topple over for example. Him destroying the warehouse was through an entire fight. The 12 pages before that warehouse scan confirm he is not strong enough to destroy a building with one hit.

Already addressed above, other method users have fought blinded and Librarian outright tells him to fight by using your other senses. Sensing killing intent, aura whatever from Sing ain't nearly potent from what I've seen.

Its potent enough for him to Palm in your general direction

In CQC sure, but with range he's in the spectrum of speed where it's feasible. Especially with the aid of Luther and Edward.

With range his projectiles become casually dodged so he is still a non factor.

A constant, moving, invisible target from a distance whilst dealing with everything else I doubt. As said the Palm's travel attack speed took a few seconds to obliterate the building so from further distance with teleportation he can avoid these.

Already addressed

Uno reverso, you lowballed and slept on Luther Strode clearly taking scans like the Shooter one from book 3, Jack in his fight against Luther out of context and misinterpretation his body-move reading as a means of countering it when in truth be told you have no counter towards it..

I did and I will admit that he is mach 2.5 . But that only puts him in the fight in the first place in terms of speed. And his striking strength is pretty lackluster when considering that 12 pages prior... Ive already said this argument so im not gonna fully repeat it again.

I will argue that Edward's alchemy attacks are not invisible since he is manipulating earth that is on the battlefield which is not invisible. And I will argue Scar can see these attacks and deconstruct them, not that these attacks will even hurt my team anyways.

They serve as persistent pressure that can discombobulate your team, pretty big when your also dealing with Luther Strode throwing spear projectiles and anti-tank missiles.

I mean their not gonna pressure my entire team since Scar can be the only one who counters them and the rest of my team can focus on other things. And ive addressed Luther and missiles above

Conclusion

I will admit that Luther's speed is close to Kars and Sing, however his striking strength is abysmal as shown in my 2nd post. You can just look at the 12 pages I posted in my 2nd post. Yes Luther over the course of a fight destroyed a warehouse. But that doesnt mean he dishes out building level damage with one punch. Kars, even Scar and Sing just outright tanks Luther's damage. Which I have shown in my previous 12 scans in my 2nd post.

Ironman is a weak link in the team, and his relevant missiles really can't be spammed, nor can they hit even if they could be spammed.

Edward does not have the damage to meaningfully affect Sing or Kars.

So in the end I feel that people can see that Kars with his Hamon attacks and Sing with his Buddha Palm will win the day.

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#22 emperorthanos-  Moderator
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Post #3 Counters | The Three Type Heroes Finale Curtain Closes

No Caption Provided

This final post took me a little while longer than expected but alas here it is, overall I'd say I genuinely speaking enjoyed this debate an being able to represent these characters to the best of my ability, what I found rather interesting in this debate is our vastly different debating styles and how we judge feats, now obviously everyone is different an it might just be me facing against a style I haven't went up against but still fascinating an shoutouts to Tom for his stellar performance.

I'll admit that throughout this debate there has been some back and forth between our characters feats an I'll say my opponents team is certainly a force to be reckon with but that said I'm still confident that my team has what it takes to triumph in this fight, with this said let's close the final curtain shall we.

Tom:

Alright first things first is to go over the IM section an oh boy did my opponent not spare any remorse in this part, lol. Now to the following readers here I'll just say is IM the slowest member here, yeah? can anyone on his team blitz him, yeah? I'm not denying that in terms of combat speed he ain't fast hell arguing supersonic against characters that blitz those that are mach 2-3 but something that needs to be clarified is that I never once pushed for a speed advantage when it came to IM but rather argued the sheer combination of Edward & Luther would be enough so that his arsenal would play a factor.

So long as he's far enough in distance something he can accomplish easily with his flight this should be feasible. To the following readers here you will notice that even my opponent conceded that his tank missiles are the cap of this tourney an thus SHOULD severely hurt/inflict major damage to the enemy team otherwise they DQ through over limits would be put into question.

With this said when it comes to IM I'll be addressing the concerns with his arsenal and application of said weaponry an why Tony one of the smartest characters in the MCU would be capable of.

Here is where you made an incredibly obvious error. Tony obviously has different types of missiles and not all of them have the same properties. Showing that one type of missile has no time delay does not show that the specific missile type which blew up the tank has no time delay.

Wrong, no where is it said his missiles have this limitation and it would be silly for one of the smartest characters to NOT be capable of using missiles that explode on contact an if you concede to that at all in anyway would make them feasible.

Ok, well let me go through all 7 examples. Some examples have one problem. And that is that they are not the same missile type.

Okay, to my readers here you can see Tom went on a rather pointless tangent an blatantly, completely ignored the main point that I was trying to get across. That Tony HAS used on-demand missiles an is familiar with them, Tom claiming not being the same type is wrong as he can't concretely prove Tony the smartest person in the MCU(have to illustrate this) wouldn't be capable of doing this.

I mean it goes both ways dude, you are forgetting Scar and Kars exist. The two can handle your other 2 characters. I can even wager that Kars with his regen, Hamon and stats has no trouble against Edward and Luther all at once. I will go into this later on in my counters towards the other 2 characters.

So while the 2 (Or just Kars) handles your other 2 characters. Sing can just palm in the direction of ironman and destroy the missiles in its path, effectively KOing Tony and destroying his missiles. And then he turns back to help the others.

Or, Sing can even fight your entire team by himself. And I will elaborate on this later on as well.

To the readers I'll show how my opponents shot himself in the foot here, ever since the start of this debate his whole strats been pretty much "group my entire team together with Kars an go aerial", mean whilst my teams going to be all separate and will be attacking from all omnidirections. What I'm getting at is since mines separate an his isn't means he has to stick to his strat of keeping together and in the air otherwise your basically completely changing strats mid way through an I don't need to explain how fallacious that is. So keep together all in one aerial or go completely seperate, which is it?

All my teams members can avoid the budda palms from a distance so that's moot an if you attempt to try and engage Luther in CQC he'll wreck your world.

Yes, I will agree that it would technically be point blank distance, but the distance itself is still around 9 times the distance the Beast reacted to his revolver.

You never disputed this. Now you can argue the Librarian was casual, but so was the Beast who caught his bullet with his fingers.

Already addressed an discussed the impressiveness of this feat in my 2nd counter post.

Now I'm not gonna go on long here since my opponent's basically already conceded that even restricted Luther is capable of keeping up with Kars and Sing, so instead to the following readers I'll be addressing concerns over his precog, strength and other abilities by hammering them down in the coffin.

That is false, when given enough time. Characters can destroy above their capacity if given enough time. If there is a character that can destroy a building in one shot. If you give them enough time they can end up destroying every building in town. That doesn't mean they are town level. So yes in the course of a fight Luther can destroy the warehouse.

Now you have blatantly ignored the 12 scans that I posted in my post, detailing Librarian and Luther's strength which was like wall level.

Nononono, Striking within the building spectrum means when he does one strike it busts a building. Meaning, in one punch he can destroy the house I live in.

Seems me and the opponent have reach an impasse so I'll just leave this to the readers to decide, I've already said my fill that busting such a large structure even with multiple punches would put ones striking within building.

Note that this is actually book 3, and you cannot extrapolate that Books 2 and 1 Luther Strode can do the same. In prior issues Luther's precog is portrayed differently.

Whilst true but it still applies as this is how Method users precog functions, just in book 3 it's to a greater degree but alas what I said is still true based on how body-move reading functions.

Also note that the author statement was made somewhere 7 years ago (2014) whilst Legacy of Luther Strode, the volume you are using as reference for your argument was released in 2015.

What this means is that the Author statement doesn't actually contradict anything. Since it was made in 2014, and then Legacy (Where Luther has gotten stronger) was released in 2015. Meaning he was talking about the series that was already published, Meaning he was talking about Book 1 (Released in 2011) and Book 2 (Published from 2012 to 2013).

Wrong an already addressed, feats >>>> author statements an anyone that actually debates or even reads Luther Strode or even debating battle forums in general should know this.

Now as for the rest my to the readers Tom has pretty much conceded that Luther's precog is what I've been saying but claims his characters have means around it, I'll just say this no. Budda palms are already easily dealth with as he's conceded that they are easier to dodge when at distance an his whole entire strats putting him in such a scenario which in return makes it infinitely easier for Luther to dodge, companied with his body-move reading it should be no trouble for him to avoid. Now as for Kars he suggests that he would be capable of "overwhelming" Luther through projectile spam, this is already debunked the same way the Palms are and that's with distance so he'll dodge these without issue.

So yes overall Luther's speed and OP precog will make it basically impossible for long distance attacks to effectively tag him.

Defending My Plan of Attack:

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I mean it is your character, and the thermal vision and zoom vision are different abilities of the suit and you have never shown him using both at once. I was just stating a fact. You've never shown a feat of him doing both at once.

Can't disprove it either and it wouldn't make sense for such a limitation for a man as intelligent as him :shrug.

You ignored my question, are Ironman's missiles even the same speed as the bullets Kars reacted to?

Do you even have an opinion or calculation as to the speed of these missiles? Or are you going to assume they are faster than century year old guns. Which is a blatant logical fallacy. Because bullets play by different mechanics than rocket propelled stuff. Bullets are light and so when shot they can reach very high speeds despite the explosive behind their launch being comparatively little in energy.

Black Powder muskets have a max speed of about 370m/s , these are muskets btw. RPG 7 a more modern technology has a max speed is 300m/s.

So the question stands. Are Ironman's missiles even the same speed as the bullets Kars dodged?

So my argument still stands, The missiles are slow as heck. Since they are your character's missiles. You should have the burden of proof to prove if they are even fast. You have shown 0 proof of their speed, so the only thing I can go off is the animation. Which is slow. When there is no other proof, the only thing you can go by is animation. And the animation tells me it is subsonic.

To the readers my opponent claims that his arsenal is slow an decided to ignore my argument that it's shown the way they are for cinematic effect. Let's take a quick google search to see how fast supersonic missiles travel at an why such an advanced suit and someone that also created the jericho missiles which in the very movie were emphasised to be waaaayyyyy more powerful then your traditional military weaponry.

No Caption Provided

As we can see it STATES most supersonic missiles can range anywhere between Mach 2-3 which would be right within the sweet spots of this tourney. With cinematic effect to take into consideration I'm more than confident that Tony's missiles are fast enough to tag the enemy and blow them out of the sky. GG.

So your only argument here. Is that Luther and Edward will come in and save the day. Well my team has 3 members as well. Not all 3 of them have to focus on Iron man, we can have 2 people fight Luther and Edward and oneshot Ironman no problem.

Well that ain't happening based of your strat otherwise you would be changing strats mid-way through a debate and contradicting what you've set out to do from the very first opener.

With the building sized buddha palm. You actually have to move a couple of meters, instead of jumping and shifting your body. On top of that, the Buddha Palm is faster than Falcon's submachine gun.

Already addressed above.

Well again, the distance would have to be pretty huge. If this was the case My team can dodge the tank missiles casually anyways. It goes both ways. At high distances my projectiles become more dodgeable and so do yours. And bare in mind. There logically is a limited supply of the wrist tank missiles, so he can't actually spam them the way Edward can spam alchemy or Kars can spam feather shells.

The difference being here is all 3 of my members will be attacking from all different directions whilst everyone on your team are all grouped up together making them a much easier target, Stuff like the Budda Palm Tony can avoid but as for your team they are dealing with not only missile spam but alchemy spam, Luther Strode peer pressure through both closing gaps or utilising Ed's supply of Alchemy constructs to yeet right at your team and among many other things.

Everything else I've already gone over in my 2nd post, my opponent has conceded that Edward can utilise Alchemy from the buildings an shot himself in the foot by not only changing strats mid-way through but grouping his team together and keeping distance which only benefits me more.

Final Conclusion & Summarization:

Wrapping this debate up, at the start I was curious of my opponents team but after a thorough debate an analysing from his posts I am more than confident that my team wins here, to the readers my opponent has made more than several fallacies when it came to approaching Luther Strode an the impact he'd play in this fight an tbh I really don't see how they work around his precog, his own strat of keeping Kars grouped up aerial with Sin & Scars proved to be his demise leaving his team more vulnerable to our combined teams onslaught of attacks, failing to disprove Tony's arsenal capabilities an Edward's usage of Alchemy.

I'll be the first to say that in a CQC fight/ if my opponent had approached IM in any other way I'd be in trouble but his strategy ultimately backfired, playing towards Tony's advantages an making it feasible for him to peform evasive maneuvers against the Budda Palms. I haven't seen any thing from his team to suggest they are tanking the tank missiles.

Closing the final curtain, I see Tony's sheer arsenal of tank missiles & the combined might of Edward and especially Luthers attacks prove to much.

No Caption Provided

Comes to a close.

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Very nice. I'll try to drop a vote soon, probably tomorrow though.

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Bump.

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I'll try to drop a vote tonight after work.

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Please vote. 😔

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I'll read later

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Intruduction

A little late, but I'm dropping my vote right now. As I've done recently, I'm going to address a couple of stuff so that I don't forget about them and aren't fully related to the voting process.

  1. Tom, you okay, my man? LOL. I mean, you indeed were overly agressive and I felt uncomfortable reading some of your arguments due to the (apparent) anger/frustration in your words. I don't know what caused it, but here, have a snickers.
  2. I felt the last post of each participant was completely unecessary. I was mostly "I've already addressed it" and was very tedious to read. The first ones were enterteining to read, but I already had a winner in mind and those last posts didn't do anything to change it.

Now, with that out of the way, let's get to the actual voting. As always, in order to make everything more organized, I'll divide my post in different sections so that it'll be easier to digest my conclusions.

Strength / Attack Potency

I think both sides came to an agreement that both sides are able to harm each other. However, I do have some problems regarding Luther Strode, a character I've heard of, but this is my first time reading a debate about him; and that is his attack potency. Sure enough, during his fight he destroyed a building, however, Tom brought a very good point in saying that it was during the duration of a whole fight, and wasn't done in a single attack. I feel his argument of "attacks look like wall level must be wall level" was entirely wrong and shouldn't have been brought up at all, as attack potency / destructive power, but otherwise I was convinced Luther is not anywhere near building level.

Other than that, IM and Sing seemed to have come to the cap of the tourney, which was house level, and both participants accepted that. Edward and Scar aren't specialized in destructive power and their role seemed to be more as support, so I don't think they matter too much in this aspect. The one I wasn't too clear on was Kars, but considering his attacks are mainly slicing, and cutting, I guess his attack potency didn't have to be argued terribly high for him to be a threat.

Another issue that I came across with Chronic's arguments, or rather "non-arguments" was how he didn't once address Tom's argument about the limit to the amount of missiles IM can carry, which I found very concerning, as he didn't even mention it's existence, and it felt as if he was trying to completely ignore, which obviously lowered point on his side.

In short, because of Luther's "house busting" feat not convincing me, I'd favor Tom.

Durability

Usually I combine strength and durability into a single section, but given how unpaired both stats were in both teams, I'm making a durability category. I'll start by addressing my biggest concern: I felt Kars's plane crashing feat is above limits. I said it, I think it's too much, as IMO a plane crashing into an average house would do more than just destroy it, add lava to it and I think that durability level is too high. Anyways, given how the host of the tourney didn't say anything, I'll act as if it were in-limits.

I'd support Tom. This was easier than the last section, because Chronic didn't really argue his character's durability (I'll elaborate on than on another section) all that much and relied on his strategy to carry.

Speed

The most spicy section in most debates and certainly one of my favorites. I was really skeptical with Tom's calc about the Beast's speed from the very beginning, though that may be because of my innate hate towards pixel scaling (LOL), and was surprised how little it was addressed in Chronic's posts, so I'll have to live with it. Regarding the other members, while Tom tried to argue Luther being slower, he came to the conclusion that he was as fast as he was originally persented...except for one issue: Chronic did say "Luther is the fastest person here" or something like that, without proof or even comparing the speeds of all the characters, which did seem like a bit weird.

On another note, I immensely disagreed with Tom saying "Since my team is faster, I can overwhelm yours." I know he didn't exactly say that, but that was the idea. Since the cap of the tourney is Mach 3, there isn't that big of a difference between Mach 2 and 3 IMO. At least not as big of a difference as Tom was making it out to be.

Another problem I had, but this time with Chronic, is that he didn't bring up the speed of IM's missiles until the last post, which I felt was unfair for Tom, as I myself had some counters to that argument.

Anyways, there was a huge flaw on Tom's strategy that wasn't addressed by Chronic, which I also felt was surprising, as I thought it was very obvious. He came close to mentioning it, but in the end only stratched the surface. But given how it wasn't countered, I'll act as if it didn't exist.

I'll favor Tom here, mainly because IM's speed is deadweight to his teammates.

Strategies

Tom's strategy was basically "I'll bombard you from the sky," while Chronic's was "I'll shoot you down form the sky." However, there was something that bothered me about Chronic's strategy and that is: He barely touched defense. It the idiom "a good offense is the best defense" could be made a strategy, that would be Chronic's, except it wasn't all that good. Tom did prove his team was slightly faster than Chronic and his attacks had a bigger area of effect, points which Chronic didn't even quote and I felt were very vital to the outcome of this match.

In other words, Chronic didn't solve the main threats coming from Tom's team and focused on his own, which isn't entirely a bad idea, but it made him seem cornered. And having him outright ignoring some of Tom's arguments didn't help matters.

Anyhow, I felt Tom's strategy, if maybe a little simplistic, was better than Chronic's and even in the battle of counters, I felt he won.

Conclusions

As most of the people who have read this far will know, I clearly favor someone in this match. And that someone's username is @tomtheawesome123. I believe he argued his characters to be more powerful and overall faster, and had a more solid strategy. However (and I have to say it), he was very repetitive and that made it very tedious to read some parts of his post.

Regarding @chronicplane's strategy, I don't think it's a bad one. In fact, I felt his posts were clearer and easier to read than Tom's. But if I had to state a reason for his "defeat" is that his character choices and the matchup didn't favor him at all. Maybe if Tom's strategy had been different, things wouldn't have gone this way, but that's life for you.

Thank you all for reading and I wish you all a wonderful day.

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#33  Edited By defiant_will
No Caption Provided

Alright look, I am probably the biggest (and only) advocate for long, detailed CaVs and tourney debates. But only when it truly adds and enhances the debate. When that criteria is not met, it is very easy for the best debates to quickly become tedious. Unfortunately, the lack of brevity here did not do this debate any favors. Literally both of your closers were repeating and reiterating arguments that were already made in prior posts, to the point that the debate could've well ended during the second set of posts and my opinion would hardly change. Having the context of the Discord discussions referenced throughout this CaV, I could also tell Tom was overcompensating for the "lowballing" accusations made against him in and out of this debate, which needlessly added to the word count of his posts (ie the multi paragraph long tangent at the beginning of his rebuttal clarifying that he is not a lowballer). Luckily, I was indeed able to finish this entire debate with a clear winner in mind. So without further a due, let's get to the verdict:

Speed

The first talking point is obviously going to have to be speed since the a massive chunk of this debate was centered on that very topic. With Luther Strode, I obviously felt that Tom was lowballing him heavily in the opening rounds of this debate, and by closers, I could tell even Tom could recognize this. The prostitute feat (for lack of a better name) was clearly not just aim dodging (literally from over a dozen shooters from multiple angles and we see a multitude of bullets in motion as Strode tries to clear the hallway). The Jack the Ripper lowballing was also pretty egregious (both him "failing" to react to bullets and him being tiers above Strode), but Tom also came around on that point as well. I think it was clear that Strode was definitely one of the faster characters here, which again, Tom acknowledged by his closer. And though it was good on Chronic to change Tom's perception of Strode's speed... it didn't really implicate much on the debate. As Tom emphasized in his close, his argument was mainly comparing Strode to Sing in speed and I was completely convinced that Sing was faster. Through being relative to if not superior to The Beast, who himself has a feat massively above anything Strode has done or would scale to, along with the Beast alone scaling tiers above casually supersonic characters... it was clear Sing had the edge in speed. Kars and Luther are more competitive, but I was still persuaded that Kars had the speed advantage due to the nuances of both showings (ie the muzzle velocity of both guns involved, the distance it was timed from, etc). Tom was generally far more detailed and thorough in his feat analysis and breakdowns, which made his assertions more credible and convincing. This methodical approach was clearly something Chronic could not match, which became painfully obvious with the MCU Iron Man debate.

Unlike Chronic debunking Tom's Luther Strode downplay, Tom debunking Chronic's overestimation of MCU Tony was far more impactful to the debate. Chronic started the debate claiming MCU Tony was high supersonic by timing a tank shell from dozens of meters, which was pretty easily refuted by Tom without much pushback. Chronic then attempted to scale MCU Tony to LA super soldiers like Bucky, who are not only nowhere near as fast as literally anyone else in this fight, but Tony doesn't even cleanly scale above them given what happened in Civil War. So we are left with Tony's supersonic travel speed (that he needs to accelerate to reach anyway), which is barely combat applicable and has no barring on his reaction speed. I'd also like to note that the whole thing with Chronic using a hypersonic statement for MCU Tony's travel speed and then arbitrarily claiming he will argue Tony at mach 3 was extremely weird and that's not at all how it works, but I digress. Needless to say, I was thoroughly convinced MCU Tony was fodder in speed here and was liable to be blitzed by even the slowest character on Tom's team (Scar). Chronic tried to push the distance argument (which he low key just stole from Tom) to fight a case for Tony, but as Tom put it:

"I guess you can make the argument that Tony technically can dodge it if my team were far enough away from yours... But if my team were that far away that even Iron man can dodge the buddha palm which has AOE size of a building and can tag the beast. I don't think any of your team's attacks can hit my team either."

Which reigns especially true for the Strode projectile BS (more on that later) and the missile spam (again, more on that later). So that argument would benefit Tom more than Chronic. It also doesn't help that Scar is invisible and can literally teleport, so that argument wouldn't hold up by principle. So yeah, I wasn't at all convinced MCU Tony contributed anything of substance or of note to this fight, which in my eyes meant that Strode and Edward would have to carry. Edward and Scar's speed wasn't too relevant since they weren't even the fastest on their respective teams and Tom and Chronic seem to agree on a lot of their feats (understandably so). And there wasn't too much dispute on Kars' feats either. Overall, I would give Tom the comfortable edge in the speed debate, if only for the simple fact that he went out of his way to analyze and quantify feats. Chronic, on the other hand, made several assertions throughout this debate (like attacking Sing's speed) without anything to show for it as far as reasoning goes, which Tom called him out on.

Physicals (Strength/DC/Durability)

This is going to be brief since this aspect of the debate primarily revolved around Luther Strode and Sing. With Luther Strode, Tom was actually right on the money in his refutations to the warehouse feat. We literally can not discern the timeframe, and it astounds me that Chronic placed so much emphasis on this point as well, belaboring that "we do not know the exact timeframe"

The warehouse was busted, more head-canon based on how long it took which you don't know. The sheer force coming from both the combatants energy output had to be relative enough to destroy it otherwise it wouldn't have been destroyed at all. So I don't see where he is lacking in damage output. We don't know the exact time in-between the panels but based on how in one panel the warehouse was stable and in the next it was completely destroyed it couldn't have been more than several seconds. Either way you slice it destroying the warehouse like this would have to put his striking output within building spectrum.

And in that same argument, asserts with chest that this feat is building level. I mean it is obvious that destroying a warehouse in an undisclosed amount of time from within is not building level, especially not to the level of explicitness and clarity that Chronic's arguments imply. As Tom pointed out, the timeframe is clearly implied to be significant since in one panel the outside of the warehouse is vacant. In the next, there are several police cards already parked. So yeah, this argument really wasn't all that convincing. As for the Buddha Palm, it was clear that it was at tourney limits as far as DC and I didn't buy hardly any of Chronic's arguments about its practicality in battle, or lack thereof (once again, more on that later). Besides these two characters, stats weren't really that big of a deal for everyone else as far as the debate went, so I'll move on.

Abilities and Strats

Finally we have the most important section for me. Even with a disadvantage in speed and physicals, a diverse enough array of powers and a well planned strat can easily turn the tables. In terms of abilities, Chronic was mainly banking on Tony's missiles, Strode's precog, and Ed's Alchemy. Tony as a combatant here was pretty irrelevant to me and the missile argument didn't help. Chronic literally did not even make the slightest attempt to quantify the speed of these missiles until the literal end of the debate, and even then, all he did was search the velocity of the faster end missiles. I'm talking big ass missiles like the Indian/Russian BrahMos referenced in Chronic's screenshot

No Caption Provided

Chronic didn't even attempt to draw some level of correlation between the speed of these missiles^^ and the mini rockets Tony launches out of his suit. Chronic really didn't give Tom anything to work with, so I can understand why he felt the need to goto the animation (even if it was a bit convenient to do so). And Chronic calling Tom out on this was extremely hypocritical since Chronic later lowballed the Buddha Palm speed using this same method, despite the fact that Tom had already explained how fast the Buddha Palms are, showing them TAGGING THE BEAST. It was also weird that Chronic argued Tony would spam tank busting missiles (akin to the one used in Iron Man 1) when they have limited ammunition, have clear delay, and that Tony has never spammed them before. It was weird to me that Chronic even believed this given his skepticism on Sing's ability to spam the Buddha Palm, which is actually more realistic given it is just a martial art technique and is not limited by ammunition like the tank shells. And again, missile spamming wouldn't even matter when everyone on Tom's team is more than fast enough to react to them. And no, Aimbot would not help at all (Idk why that was even given so much emphasis).

For Strode's precognition, that one was back and fourth. Initially, Chronic convinced me that Tom was downplaying its potency as an ability. But I was eventually swayed to Tom's side when he cited the clear progression in skill level in regards to Strode's precognition (between Books) along with the fact that the author confirmed that Book 2 Luthor did not have bona fide precog. Citing instances from Book 3 (which would come a whole year AFTER this statement) doesn't really contradict it, and if anything, only adds to Tom's narrative that Book 2 and Book 3 Strode are at different levels in terms of precog proficiency. So while it wouldn't be useless here, I don't think it is nearly as gamechanging as Chronic argued. For the record, the whole Strode using a projectile argument was just poor. Chronic did not even attempt to quantify the speed Strode would throw this projectile at (Tom had to steelman and do it for him), and even then, just because Strode has precog (which as I said, really isn't all that for this specific version), doesn't make the projectile any harder to time. At best, one could say it is well aimed, but the speed and velocity does not change, so if Tom's characters can react to the projectile speed, precog wouldn't change it. Again though, that is me assuming these projectiles are anywhere near fast enough. And as for Ed's Alchemy, Chronic didn't really argue for it that much beyond pressuring the other team with alchemy constructs. I did find it a bit weird that Tom tried to lowball their range and Ed's mobility with it, and Chronic refuted it quite well, but it wasn't really relevant anyway.

Now with Tom's side of things, there was obviously the Buddha Palm. I was not convinced that Tony could deal with it. Additionally, even if Ed is invisible, Sing can detect aura so he should have a general idea of where Ed is and the AoE will quite literally do the rest. As an aside, the whole invisibility dynamic was interesting, but it wouldn't be a problem for either team (Method users can fight while blind). Back to Tom, I don't really have much to say. Kars arsenal was fleshed out and his Hamon should be a oneshot for anyone here. Same goes for Scar's Deconstruction (unless countered by Ed). Finally, I'd like to point out that Chronic was wrong when he said this:

To the readers I'll show how my opponents shot himself in the foot here, ever since the start of this debate his whole strats been pretty much "group my entire team together with Kars an go aerial", mean whilst my teams going to be all separate and will be attacking from all omnidirections. What I'm getting at is since mines separate an his isn't means he has to stick to his strat of keeping together and in the air otherwise your basically completely changing strats mid way through an I don't need to explain how fallacious that is. So keep together all in one aerial or go completely seperate, which is it?

Tom literally referenced CQC encounters as apart of his plan for victory in his opener and given that he has a teleporting CQC-ranged fighter on his team, it makes sense Tom would argue that. In either case, range or CQC, I don't think the winner really changes in my eyes.

The Verdict

If it wasn't obvious, I am voting for @tomtheawesome123. He was hardly perfect and made a few mistakes, but I felt he generally had the more thorough and convincing counters and feat analysis and I felt his team outguns and outmatches Chronic's own.

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#35  Edited By Chronicplane

Damn.....guess I did way worse here than I thought huh? 😂

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ashrym

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@tomtheawesome123: @chronicplane: @emperorthanos-:

I'm going to have to vote for Tom too. I'm not going to give a huge explanation, however. Long reasons have been done.

Overall, Tom gave a better impression on the detailed counters for speed centered around Sing and Luthor Strode.

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#37  Edited By Antebellum

Is great to see some Cantonese content on Vine, few people know these movies.

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tomtheawesome123

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Is great to see some Cantonese content on Vine, few people know these movies.

Thanks man

@ashrym thx for the vote

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