Street PYP Tournament: ILoveParis vs KingCrimson (OPEN FOR VOTES)

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KingCrimson

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@iloveparis

  • MCU Cap (2)
  • MCU Moon Knight (2)
  • MCU Hawkeye (2)
  • DCEU Bloodsport (2)

Perks

  • basic knowledge
  • morals off

@KingCrimson

  • Tetchō Suehiro (5)
  • Ichiro Sato (1)

Perks:

  • Trade 2 character points, gain 3 perk points.
  • Mind Link & Perfect Teamwork (4)
  • Wiki knowledge (4)
  • Lightsaber (Suehiro) (4)
  • MCU Super Soldier Serum (Sato) (1)

Setup

  • Start at opposite ends of the curved wall, in sight of each other
  • Helms deep is abandoned
  • Win by death/KO/complete incap
No Caption Provided

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KingCrimson

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#2  Edited By KingCrimson

Paris - Post 1

Opening post :

Before we get stared, I just wanted to say that I am not an expert in English (I am not from an English speaking country and English isn't my mother tongue) so there may be spelling mistakes and it is also my first contest/CaV so the layout may not be perfect and finally, some gifs don't upload so I just put their link.

the h2h fighters :

Captain America and Moon Knight :

strenght :

No Caption Provided

Cap is a supersoldier and he is strong enough to lift huge I-beam while taking gun shots and knives hit just before

No Caption Provided

Not only Cap has a good lifting strenght but he also has a good striking strenght, as he is able to send an at least 200 kg punching bag, breaking the chain holding it in the process (and also breaking the bag in the process)

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Thanks to his divine empowerment, Moon Knight also has a superhuman level strenght, here he is able to casually one-shot and adult man

To conclude this first part, both Cap and Marc have the strenght to hurt and beat your team down.

speed :

No Caption Provided

Both Cap and Moon Knight have an incredible speed, here Cap run faster than cars in a highway

https://media.tenor.com/sUtWmJmEmxQAAAAd/captain-america-cap.gif

here, run fast enough to cross a Wakandan battlefield, blitzing outriders on the way and he also keep up with Panther who has an incredible running speed

No Caption Provided

Cap also has a great rection speed, on the gif above, he reacts to a bullet and he ducks after the bullet is fired

No Caption Provided

Moon Knight also has a great reaction speed, as he is able to dodge a blast from Harrow's scepter after it is shot by using a flip (also a great agility feat)

No Caption Provided

https://media.tenor.com/ATESJJy1zn4AAAAC/moon-knight-run.gif

Like Cap, Moon Knight also runs really fast, here he outspeed a quadruped creature

Both Cap and Moon Knight should be able to blitz and dodge the attacks of your team

durability :

No Caption Provided

On the gif above, Marc no-sell some bullets to the chest at point-blank range

No Caption Provided

here, he survived being impaled by three spears, he is unhurt only angry

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11124/111241908/5793247-7342922328-NocrC.gif

Here, Cap tank being thrown at high speed by a Ultron bot

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11134/111345556/6369733-cap-chitauri%20bomb.gif

And finally, Cap tanked a powerful Chitauri bomb that destroyed an entire building floor and that create a very large explosion

After all this durability feats, I think it's fair to say that your team will have troubles putting down my team

the snipers :

Hawkeye and Bloodsport :

accuracy :

shot Starro's stars in air

https://media.tenor.com/cNquVs5HK74AAAAd/peacemaker-bloodsport.gif

On this gif, Bloodsport shot and destroys Peacemaker's bullet after it was fired with a smaller bullet

shot chitauri spaceship without looking (Clint)

weapons :

https://media.tenor.com/TRu2BgPLLu0AAAAd/bloodsport-the-suicide-squad.gif

Bloodsport uses high tech guns

his guns are powerful enough to knock back King Shark

trick arrows (exlosive arrows can destroy chitauri vehicles) (Clint)

Battle Scheme:

My plan is simple, Cap and Moon Knight will engage and take down your team in h2h and Clint and Bloodsport will snipe your team (they have both the accuracy and weapons powerful enough to take your team down)

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KingCrimson

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KC - POST 1 - Mind over matter?

No Caption Provided

Physicals & Abilities

Almost polar opposites in their capabilities, Sato and Suehiro are similar in temperament. They’ll do what needs to be done in order to completely crush their enemies, and their abilities complement each other perfectly.

Suehiro is the tip of the spear, so to speak. As a 5 pointer, he possesses monstrous physical capabilities that far outclass any member of your team.

The person he yeets through a concrete pillar, Kenji, is far stronger than any of your team, able to tear off a piece of train track and use it like a baseball bat with ease. If Suehiro can overpower him, your close quarters fighters stand no chance, and engaging directly with him would be tantamount to suicide.

Unfortunately, your team doesn’t have the luxury of keeping their distance from him either. Suehiro’s ability allows him to freely alter the shape, length and form of his blade, which makes it exceedingly difficult to deal with.

He has, amongst other things, used this ability to strike two separate fighters at the same time, despite them being apart from each other. The technique is also fast enough to instantly catch up to a speeding car that was out of sight of him, and to dice up a plane in midair. Both of these feats should put his sword speed into supersonic territory (instantly crossing over 200m of distance and cutting through a diving jet plane several times over before it can move any real distance), and way out of reach of your characters. Just in case there’s any doubt about that, he has easily cut a swathe of supersonic, gravity-enhanced sniper bullets out of the air;

To make matters worse, Suehiro also has access to a lightsaber here on top of his standard sabre, meaning double the trouble for your lot.

Honestly, Suehiro could solo your team on his own without any assistance whatsoever, but the nail in the coffin here is his partner, Sato. Whilst not a physical fighter, he is a telepath. His ability, Psycho Share, allows him to forcibly transmit images into people’s heads.

He can use this ability to transmit some pretty horrific images that usually cause unconsciousness or permanent mind crush, but here he only needs show your team an altered environment, and one where my team will effectively be invisible. He can change the shape of the walkway in your mind so you step off the ledge, he could add objects in front of you that aren’t there, or he could have you fighting shadows whilst my team can freely manoeuvre around the battlefield.

Strategy

Fairly simple. Sato obscures the minds of your team with telepathy, making them fight things that aren’t there and being unable to actually see my team. Suehiro will then cut your team into tiny little chunks without any trouble or resistance

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KingCrimson

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Paris - POST #2 AKA COUNTERS

"Suehiro is the tip of the spear, so to speak. As a 5 pointer, he possesses monstrous physical capabilities that far outclass any member of your team.

The person he yeets through a concrete pillar, Kenji, is far stronger than any of your team, able to tear off a piece of train track and use it like a baseball bat with ease. If Suehiro can overpower him, your close quarters fighters stand no chance, and engaging directly with him would be tantamount to suicide."

-Ok but so did Cap (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg1rtWXHSKU, 3:05) and Arthur Harrow (Moon Knight equal) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwqLo6VypNY, 1:25), so I don't see why this feat put Kenji above Cap and Marc in strenght

Cap also has better strenght feats like the punching bag feat (post 1) or this feat, why is this feat impressive? because Ultron is bulletproof and no-sold the Quinjet's minigun just before (see link above, 2:35 of the video)

No Caption Provided

So, I think it's fair to say that Cap and Marc are at least as strong as Kenji

(and to be honest, I don't really see why the train track feat is impressive, especially compare to the Cap and Marc feats I post above, in this post and in the first)

"Unfortunately, your team doesn’t have the luxury of keeping their distance from him either. Suehiro’s ability allows him tofreely alter the shape, length and form of his blade, which makes it exceedingly difficult to deal with."

-Ok but Hawkeye can easily dodge the blade, he easily dodged Loki's scepter blast which is supersonic (it reached cloud level in few seconds) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQKYN-yR2oM, 1:18) and he has stealth+ grappling hook arrow to get away and keep his distances (Hawkeye's stealth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RszPIqZDCK8, all along the video and at the begining he also one-punch a guy, good strenght feat for a peak human)

Cap can also counter the blade with his shield and Marc can tank and heal from the blade (post 1 for Marc tanking being impaled by several men)

"He has, amongst other things, used this ability to strike two separate fighters at the same time, despite them being apart from each other. The technique is also fast enough to instantly catch up to a speeding car that was out of sight of him, and to dice up a plane in midair. Both of these feats should put his sword speed into supersonic territory (instantly crossing over 200m of distance and cutting through a diving jet plane several times over before it can move any real distance), and way out of reach of your characters. Just in case there’s any doubt about that, he has easily cut a swathe of supersonic, gravity-enhanced sniper bullets out of the air;"

nice feats and abilities but Cap can also keep up with speeding cars (post 1) and he has some bullet timing feats (post 1) so unless you show me that the sword can move at supersonic speed, Cap should be able to block it and Marc can also tank it

plus, the plane was taking off so it wasn't at full speed

"To make matters worse, Suehiro also has access to a lightsaber here on top of his standard sabre, meaning double the trouble for your lot."

-same as the sword and as the blade, Marc can maybe dodge it (he dodged Arthur Harrow's blast, see post 1) and if he can't dodge it, he can definitely tank it and Cap should be able to block it with his shield (and his shield can tank it since it blocked Iron Man's repulso-rays which are more powerful than your lightsaber)

No Caption Provided

"He can use this ability to transmit some pretty horrific images that usually cause unconsciousness or permanent mind crush, but here he only needs show your team an altered environment, and one where my team will effectively be invisible. He can change the shape of the walkway in your mind so you step off the ledge, he could add objects in front of you that aren’t there, or he could have you fighting shadows whilst my team can freely manoeuvre around the battlefield."

-pretty op ability, I have to admit it, it is even allowed? and even if it's allowed, how can it take down my team? It can just incap my team and your team still can't hurt Moon Knight

Hawkeye's trick arrows:

Hawkeye can also solo your team at distance with trick arrows like this one (explosive arrow):

https://imgur.com/cJhqPc5 (explosive arrow powerful enough to blow up SHIELD helicarrier's engine and create a massive explosion) This arrow can one-shot your team if they are close to each other and if not, Clint can shoot 2 arrows at the same time (one for each member of your team)

https://imgur.com/sgicXw6 this arrow can also one-shot the members of your team individually

https://imgur.com/TwfcNUd, so can this arrow

https://imgur.com/dZhcMWy and of course this one will definitely take down your team

TLDR:

Moon Knight and Captain America will still beat your team in h2h with their superior stats and Hawkeye/Bloodsport will take down your team at distance (Hawkeye can also get away and keep his distances with grappling hook arrows and stealth if needed)

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KingCrimson

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KC - POST 2 - Counters

-Ok but so did Cap (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg1rtWXHSKU, 3:05) and Arthur Harrow (Moon Knight equal) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwqLo6VypNY, 1:25), so I don't see why this feat put Kenji above Cap and Marc in strenght

A nice try, but neither are even close to the same thing.

Cap uses a throw with momentum to break the side of the support column. Suehiro uses a one-inch punch against a physical peer who was actively pushing in the opposite direction, and yet he completely smashes the pillar (and it’s iron rebar support) to pieces. I stress, with a one-inch punch.

Arthur just blows him through an old wall - not in the same league.

Cap also has better strenght feats like the punching bag feat (post 1) or this feat, why is this feat impressive? because Ultron is bulletproof and no-sold the Quinjet's minigun just before (see link above, 2:35 of the video)

The punching bag feat is nowhere close to as good. Not sure what you’re talking about.

So, I think it's fair to say that Cap and Marc are at least as strong as Kenji

(and to be honest, I don't really see why the train track feat is impressive, especially compare to the Cap and Marc feats I post above, in this post and in the first)

I don’t think so. Neither Cap nor Marc are strong enough to casually pick a minivan up over their heads with one hand and smash it through the asphalt like a baseball bat;

No Caption Provided

And to remind you, Suehiro is stronger than this version of Kenji. He quite literally stomped him into the ground.

He would manhandle Marc and Cap like a pair of toddlers.

Ok but Hawkeye can easily dodge the blade, he easily dodged Loki's scepter blast which is supersonic (it reached cloud level in few seconds) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQKYN-yR2oM, 1:18) and he has stealth+ grappling hook arrow to get away and keep his distances (Hawkeye's stealth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RszPIqZDCK8, all along the video and at the begining he also one-punch a guy, good strenght feat for a peak human)

Even ignoring the fact that if you were arguing Hawkeye as a bullet timer or above he should have been at least 3 points (so you’re capped at arrow timing), dodging a linear blast is not even close to the same as dodging two swords that can statue a full-speed private jet and change course at the behest of a character with genuine supersonic reactions.

It doesn’t matter where any of your characters run or hide, the swords will follow and easily outspeed them.

Cap can also counter the blade with his shield and Marc can tank and heal from the blade (post 1 for Marc tanking being impaled by several men)

Cap can try and block the blade, but it will just change shape and come from behind him;

And Marc might be able to heal from being pierced, but not decapitation or cut into several pieces (like the plane).

nice feats and abilities but Cap can also keep up with speeding cars (post 1) and he has some bullet timing feats (post 1) so unless you show me that the sword can move at supersonic speed, Cap should be able to block it and Marc can also tank it

plus, the plane was taking off so it wasn't at full speed

Cap keeping up with a speeding car is irrelevant. Suehiro’s sword instantly caught up to a speeding car when it had a 100m+ headstart, so it’s clearly several times faster.

Again, if you thought Cap was a bullet timer you should have taken him as a 3 pointer. As it is, he’s capped at arrow timing, which shouldn't really matter as the feat you provided doesn’t really look like an example of bullet timing anyway.

And the plane was being crashing into the ground, when it was already flying at full-pelt.

pretty op ability, I have to admit it, it is even allowed? and even if it's allowed, how can it take down my team? It can just incap my team and your team still can't hurt Moon Knight

Allowable per the rules mate yeah. Just plain old telepathy.

Suehiro could just cut Marc’s head off without issue.

Hawkeye can also solo your team at distance with trick arrows like this one (explosive arrow):

Be impossible to do when my team are effectively invisible and your team can see walls in front of them that aren’t there.

Not to mention, Suehiro can just cut them out of the air before they get anywhere close.

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KingCrimson

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@iloveparis Yo mate.

I accidentally deleted the OG thread so I’ve reposted the arguments here. 2 days are up and so I’ve opened this for votes.

Nice debating with you, and good luck!

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KingCrimson

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ProfessorRespect

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Definitely Paris, he had a more straight-forward style that appealed better to the style of debate that this was

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KingCrimson

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ParisKC
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darthjhawk

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#10 darthjhawk  Moderator

This one seems fairly cut and dry, and I’d give it to KC after reading through a couple of times. He seemed to hold all the advantages in terms of physicality, strategy and battle control. Comparatively it was hard to envision the other side being able to focus on their direct confrontation when dealing with telepathy from the start let alone with combatants with greater prowess than them in general.

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Vertigo-

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Tbh, reading through this, KC just presented the better gameplan all around. There wasn't really a counter to the telepathy KC presented, which matters, because a lot of the counters seem to revolve around dodging, which is kind of impossible when you can't even focus on the right opponents. Based on what's here, Im not seeing a wincon for Paris' team. Voting for King Crimson

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maestromage

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Seems pretty cut and dry, both teams have some knowledge of each other going in, and whilst Paris had the numbers advantage, I wasn’t convinced that they would make up for KC’s greater killing power with something that can insta-shred a plane, especially not if they’re being distracted or mislead by illusions and such. Voting for KC.

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mr_ingenuity

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#13 mr_ingenuity  Moderator

Short debate so it was a quick read. The fact that there was no counters to telepathy is enough to state KC teams wins.

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ProfessorRespect

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#14  Edited By ProfessorRespect  Online

definitely didn't post link on discord etc

should've waited longer between votes lads

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IloveParis

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@iloveparis Yo mate.

I accidentally deleted the OG thread so I’ve reposted the arguments here. 2 days are up and so I’ve opened this for votes.

Nice debating with you, and good luck!

ok no nice yeah it was fun indeed, good luck too

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KingCrimson

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@professorrespect: I did post the link on discord; the match had gotten 1 vote in like 12 hours and we’re trying to move on to R2.

Not sure if you’re implying I’ve done something underhanded.

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Voting for Iloveparis.

Although Moon Knight's capabilities were exaggerated IMO, the strategy of having Cap and MK engage in H2H while Hawkeye and Bloodshot snipe from afar makes sense and wasn't really countered.

While Suehiro's physicals are clearly better than Cap or MK, I wasn't convinced that it was significant enough of a gap. Iloveparis convinced me that Cap's shield and MK's damage soak are enough to deal with him.

As for Sato, it might distract the opponent's team at first but I was not convinced it would be a major factor in any way. Since his physicals are non-existent, he would get one-shotted or taken out by one of Hawkeye's trick arrows.

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Naronu

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Definitely confused as to why MKs damage soak would be relevant against a lightsaber. Additionally there was never really any argument against Sato's ability beyond admitting it could incap and claiming MK could tank. Voting for @kingcrimson, not sure if Suehiro could solo, but he can definitely kill every member of paris' team while they're incapacitated by Sato.

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ProfessorRespect

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@professorrespect: I did post the link on discord; the match had gotten 1 vote in like 12 hours and we’re trying to move on to R2.

Not sure if you’re implying I’ve done something underhanded.

Seem like rig no

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Eisenfauste

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can't believe crimson rigged it smh

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geekryan

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@professorrespect said:

@kingcrimson said:

@professorrespect: I did post the link on discord; the match had gotten 1 vote in like 12 hours and we’re trying to move on to R2.

Not sure if you’re implying I’ve done something underhanded.

Seem like rig no

I learned this the hard way, but people need to understand that simply asking others to vote in a CaV/tournament means they are more likely to vote for you, even if you don't specifically ask them to vote for you.

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IloveParis

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Definitely Paris, he had a more straight-forward style that appealed better to the style of debate that this was

@geekryan said:

Voting for Iloveparis.

Although Moon Knight's capabilities were exaggerated IMO, the strategy of having Cap and MK engage in H2H while Hawkeye and Bloodshot snipe from afar makes sense and wasn't really countered.

While Suehiro's physicals are clearly better than Cap or MK, I wasn't convinced that it was significant enough of a gap. Iloveparis convinced me that Cap's shield and MK's damage soak are enough to deal with him.

As for Sato, it might distract the opponent's team at first but I was not convinced it would be a major factor in any way. Since his physicals are non-existent, he would get one-shotted or taken out by one of Hawkeye's trick arrows.

thank you so much guys, I didn't really expect to get vote since I'm a little inexperienced in tournament unlike my opponent

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IloveParis

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thank you everyone for voting

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KingCrimson

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@geekryan said:

@professorrespect said:

@kingcrimson said:

@professorrespect: I did post the link on discord; the match had gotten 1 vote in like 12 hours and we’re trying to move on to R2.

Not sure if you’re implying I’ve done something underhanded.

Seem like rig no

I learned this the hard way, but people need to understand that simply asking others to vote in a CaV/tournament means they are more likely to vote for you, even if you don't specifically ask them to vote for you.

Not sure I agree with that, but if that’s your experience then fair enough. I’ve been asked to vote on plenty of matches and I’ve never felt inclined to vote for the person asking for votes specifically because they asked me, and I would expect the same level of integrity from any semi-decent user on this site. People are expected to explain their votes for that reason.

Two of the people who voted are mods, and all are well respected veterans of the site. I think PR implying I’ve somehow rigged this is a pisstake and an insult to the guys who voted, especially considering I only joined as a reserve (to my own tourney, no less) due to a dropout.

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ProfessorRespect

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#25  Edited By ProfessorRespect  Online
@geekryan said:

@professorrespect said:

@kingcrimson said:

@professorrespect: I did post the link on discord; the match had gotten 1 vote in like 12 hours and we’re trying to move on to R2.

Not sure if you’re implying I’ve done something underhanded.

Seem like rig no

I learned this the hard way, but people need to understand that simply asking others to vote in a CaV/tournament means they are more likely to vote for you, even if you don't specifically ask them to vote for you.

I definitely agree from extensive experience of seeing the same thing, people tend to lean towards the person asking due to regency bias or being more familiar with them. Asking for votes from certain *cough* groups definitely leads to weird occasions where you have people voting literally minutes between each other for the same person. Now I'm no expert, but not even Church rigging back in the day was that quick. It's pretty impressive in that regard. Oh well.

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Eisenfauste

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imo no contest should be called. 4 votes being posted at the same time or near it is suspicious.

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ProfessorRespect

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#27  Edited By ProfessorRespect  Online
@eisenfauste said:

imo no contest should be called. 4 votes being posted at the same time or near it is suspicious.

For the mobile users here are the dates of the votes cast after my own yesterday: I'm not going to say anything further, just read them for yourself.

First vote: 12:16 PM

second: 12:22 PM

third: 12:26 PM

fourth: 12:27 PM

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KingCrimson

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@professorrespect:

Do me a favour mate; I don’t know you, so stop with the accusations of foul play.

I posted the link in a server where the majority of remaining participants in this tournament are active, and asked them if they could vote so we can move on to R2. They kindly obliged, but that’s it.

I’ll move Paris on regardless, the result of the match makes no odds to me, but you have properly fucked me off. Clown.

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Cheth

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Think the assumption that the contest is rigged just because people voted in close proximity on a super-short debate (that takes 5 min to read if you're a slow reader) is a pretty big reach

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reaverlation

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The level of stupidity and outright foolishness to assume a vote is presumably yours for posting a link to ask people to vote and continue the tourney is nonsense. But of course we can see who is the usual clown that likes to make everything his business on CV cause of the God complex he likes to carry on this site.

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#31 owie  Moderator
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#32  Edited By DeathHero61

@geekryan: I had a losing streak the last time I was on comicvine consistently for tournaments and CAVs. That just isn't true. I ask people to vote for my matches all the time. A lot of the time it comes down to who was more convincing.

The fact you guys made a stink of this is insanely unfair to both debaters and future debates on this site. Especially for a debate so short

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DeathHero61

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#33  Edited By DeathHero61

What baffles me the most is that ProfessorRespect the main one spearheading this gave the least detailed vote compared to the ones who voted for KC and made it just vague enough that you can tell whether or not he actually read the debate.

Neither Geekryan nor ProfessorRespect mentioned telepathy or went into detail about the comparison of stats or who's counters made the most sense and where each party was lacking. Absolutely nothing of substance in their votes but make the bold accusation of rigging a thread that was apparently recreated after the prior one got deleted, and everyone was likely tagged for both threads which is publicly available. Not to mention how short this tourney match is compared to every other one.(the shorter the read the quicker people vote. Look how long it took people to vote on any of Higher Power's matches)

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geekryan

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@geekryan: I had a losing streak the last time I was on comicvine consistently for tournaments and CAVs. That just isn't true. I ask people to vote for my matches all the time. A lot of the time it comes down to who was more convincing.

The fact you guys made a stink of this is insanely unfair to both debaters and future debates on this site. Especially for a debate so short

Just because it may not have been true for you doesn't mean it isn't true in general.

What I described is a pretty universally-accepted psychological concept, which is applied in politics, marketing, sociology, etc. Asking someone for a favour means they are more likely to do the favour for you. Why do you think it is so common for running councillors and mayors to go door-to-door and ask for votes? Because doing so increases the chances of them getting votes.

Denying this is a real possibility and a factor in how people vote would be pretty ignorant.

I have been on both sides of this issue. I don't believe KingCrimson had any ill intent whatsoever in this, so this isn't meant to be a dig against him.

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#35  Edited By TheWatcherKing

I actually would agree that posting a match somewhere can bring slight bias towards the one who posts it, however ultimately bias is everywhere. There’s no voter that has 100% no bias prior to voting unless they equally don’t care about either of the debaters/characters involved but if that’s the case they likely wouldn’t read at all. Bias is inevitable, the most you can do is hope people are impartial enough that both sides have a fair shot at winning. So if a debate is struggling to get voters posting it somewhere and asking people to check it out is fair game

Anyway I can confirm KC didn’t ask anyone to vote for him, and I’ll try to get around to reading/voting on this debate myself.