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#1 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

  • Daenerys + Drogon (4)
  • Movie Hellboy (3)
  • Hawkeye (MCU) (1)

@major_hellstorm:

  • Joker (BatB) (1)
  • Human Fly (2)
  • Tenzin (2)
  • Quan Chi (2)
  • Kazar and Zabu (1)

Rules

  • 8 points to spend on characters. Once a character is picked, they are gone. Henchmen can be picked multiple times.
  • All Characters with Expanded Universe are allowed there EU feats. Manga/Anime gets both feats. Game characters get Manga/Anime feats. Comics with Reboots get Pre Reboot and Post Reboot feats.
  • All characters are in character, but no rivalries. All will work together.
  • No BFR, but can teleport others around the battlefield.
  • Time Manipulation is allowed only on the character who has it only. Can not Increase speed past hypersonic.
  • Intangibility Dismemberment, Teleporting Dismemberment, Shrink Attacks, and Transmutation allowed on surroundings, gear, summons, and fodder only.
  • Gear must remain Street Level.
  • Summons/Duplicates limited to Navy Seal Team quality. You cannot summon anything or duplicate enough to overwhelm a 6 man Navy Seal Team with ease.
  • Unsure, then ask. If things get out of hand, rulings will be made.

Battlefield.

Top team starts far right. Bottom team starts far left.

No Caption Provided

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#2 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Mind going first?

I'm actually in the middle of writing a lengthy post in my CaV with @wyldsong at the moment. Might be a couple of days before I'm done so I don't really mind going first but it would be a few days before I'm able to drop an opener. You can open yourself if you want or I can if you don't mind waiting.

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#5 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: I am the smae with Jlone. So I guess who ever finishes first posts first then. Or if you want, I can just re-use my opener with some edits.

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#6 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: When I get access to my PC I will just make a few quick edits and post.

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#8 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Here it is re-posted. I decided to leave out strategy for later.

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The Joker

The Joker is the clown prince of crime, the red hood the....well I am sure you and everyone here knows him already. I am using Batman the Brave and the Bold Joker who is pretty much the same as his comic book counter part only more kid friendly and less sinister. But make no mistake, he is every bit as deadly.

Feats:

This clip should cover it for the most part

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As you can see he has an assortment of weaponry. The most notable of which is his Joker Gas which one shot a whole battlefield of Amazons (which as stated in the video have the endurance to battle for days on end) and even took out Wonder Woman herself.

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The Human Fly

Richard Deacon is a lesser known Spidey villain. He has the powers of a fly, including super strength, super speed, flight, superhuman durability, acid spit and the ability to fire ultra sonic backlashes. With his powers he has challenged both Spider Man and Spider Woman as well as Moon Knight, Agent Venom and several others.

Feats:

Here is he is taking a beating from Spidey yet he remains standing. He also fights Spidey in the first page and claims to be two times stronger than him (a claim that basically every Spidey rouge, including Kraven, made so it doesn't matter much).

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
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Tenzin

Tenzin is the youngest child of AvatarAang and Katara and the oldest living airbending master. He lives on Air Temple Island with the Air Acolytes, his wife Pema, and their four children: Jinora, Ikki, Meelo, and Rohan. During the resurfacing of airbending across the Earth Kingdom after the Harmonic Convergence of 171 AG, Tenzin and his family temporarily relocated to the Northern Air Temple.[7] A calm and serious man, he represented the Air Nation on the United Republic Council in Republic Cityprior to its dissolution and was responsible for educating Avatar Korra in the art of airbending and spirituality.[4]

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Tenzin

Feats:

Here he is beating Zaheer and even taking on 4 master benders on at once for a short period of time. For reference, those 4 were all extremely dangerous criminals that have been locked up for years.

Loading Video...
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Quan Chi

Quan Chi is the most powerful sorcerer and necromancer in the Netherrealmand a primary villain in the Mortal Kombat series. Quan Chi combines both cunning and brute force in his never-ending plots to overtake not only Earthrealm, but all of reality. He is an opportunist and will ally himself with anyone who can help him further his own goals. He is notable in particular for his ruthlessness and pragmatism. His manipulative and deceptive nature has earned him many enemies, including Sub-Zero and Scorpion, the latter whose entire family and clan that he destroyed.

Only Shinnok, Shao Kahn, Shang Tsung and Delia can match Quan Chi's skills as a sorcerer.

http://mortalkombat.wikia.com/wiki/Quan_Chi

Feats:

Here he is beating Raiden, the thunder god, wWith Shang Tsung as backup. Then hestomping Shang Tsung.

Loading Video...
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Ka-Zar and Zabu

The son of an English nobleman, Ka-Zar grew up in the Savage Land alongside his loyal tiger Zabu after the death of his parents.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/ka-zar/4005-3558/

Feats:

Here Ka-Zar is beating Daredevil in combat under a pitch black room.

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And here is Zabu fighting off three crocodiles in the water.

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#10 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Hope you don't mind if I re-post my intros too.

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I have a demon, a master archer, a huge dragon and a hot blonde. Resistance is futile.

Introductions:

Hellboy (movie version):

In 1944, a group of Nazi occultists lead by Obersturmbannführer Karl Ruprecht Kroenen and Russian mystic Grigori Rasputin, built an interdimensional portal device off the coast of Scotland with the intent of freeing the Ogdru Jahad - the Seven Gods of Chaos - in the hopes that it would win the world war for them. They were intercepted by an American army team guided by paranormal expert Professor Trevor Bruttenholm (pronounced "Broom") before the ritual was completed. However, an infant demon was summoned forth through the portal before its destruction. The infant was given the name "Hellboy" by the team, and was adopted as a son by Prof. Bruttenholm. Sixty years later, Hellboy is an agent of the BPRD - the FBI's Bureau of Paranormal Research and Defense, whose purpose is investigating and protecting the world from occult and paranormal dangers. In his missions and exploits, Hellboy has encountered and defeated all manners of abnormalities and monsters, and was shaped into a very formidable combatant. His true name is Anung un Rama, Son of the Fallen One.

Powers and abilities:

  • Super strength.
  • Super durability and endurance.
  • Complete immunity to fire.
  • Expert hand-to-hand and melee combatant.
  • Proficient marksman.

Gear:

  • Right Hand of Doom - has better strength and durability than the rest of his body.
  • The Good Samaritan - a huge pistol that fires bullets with great force.

Daenerys Targaryen and Drogon:

Daenerys Stormborn of the House Targaryen, the First of her Name, Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains, the Unburnt, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lady Regent of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm - is the blonde chick. Drogon is the dragon she's riding =P

But I assume most people know that already, lol.

Powers and abilities - Drogon:

Anything you'd expect of a dragon, really. He's huge, he can fly, breathe fire (and is immune to fire), rip men apart in his jaws, smash things with his limbs and tail, has super-durable scales all over is body... a generic dragon basically.

Powers and abilities - Daenerys:

Other than being completely fireproof, she's just the pretty face of the team lol.

Hawkeye (MCU):

We all know who he is.

Abilities:

  • Master marksman.
  • Expert hand-to-hand and melee fighter.

Gear:

  • Bow (that can also be used for melee).
  • Conventional arrows as well as various trick arrows which include several levels of explosives, grappling hook, and others.

Initial thoughts:

My team will start by taking to the air, right after Hawkeye and Hellboy climb on Drogon's back. Drogon will then just carpet-bomb the whole battlefield with his fire:

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While Hawkeye snipes your team with arrows. He can accurately fire arrows from a speeding truck and even from on board a fighter jet so sniping targets from atop Drogon's back should pose no real challenge for him:

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Your team is kinda useless against Drogon honestly. The only flyer on your team is Human Fly and I don't really see what he can do here, lacking ranged weapons. Other than him, well Joker, Quan Chi, Ka-Zar and Zabu are sitting ducks, and maybe Tenzin can survive for a bit if he can redirect the fire with his airbending but I'd like to see how powerful are the winds that he can summon because Drogon's fire is pretty intense.

If things for some reason go hard, Hellboy can hop down to the ground and engage your team head on. Drogon doesn't even have to land, Hellboy can jump from great heights with no damage. For example, here he gets thrown out of a 4th/5th story window and gets up immediately (it did cause him a bit of pain, but he got up and was able to keep fighting just fine after that):

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The best part is, that Hellboy can stay in the thick of combat while Drogon is breathing fire thanks to his fire-immunity:

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I'll post strength/skill showings for Hellboy if and when necessary. He should be able to give a hell of a fight if not outright beat anyone on your team individually, and with Drogon and Hawkeye helping him, he can't lose.

Your move mate.

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#11 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Sorry, been busy. Will make a quick post. If needed we can go to votes after your second post.

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#13 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Sorry, been busy. Will make a quick post. If needed we can go to votes after your second post.

I'm in no rush mate, I'd rather you take your time and make a good post than rush it out and make a bad one.

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#14 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:I made this on mobile so excuse all the links (didn't have access to PC).

Strategy

Joker first uses the poison he used against the Amazons (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPggqLoNM9w) which is then bended by Tenzin using powerful winds (https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11130/111305092/5828734-7204839888-44620.gif) towards Quan Chi portals which he opens right in your teams faces (https://streamable.com/j8asz). So basically your team will be caught off guard and will be forced to breath in poisonous gas.

Quan Chi will also transmute (https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/128535/5092333-8642847704-_lJIy.gif) your gear when he sees fit.

Contingencies

  • Gas Mask. Basically, if you think you have any sort of protection that saves you from gas, it gets spit on......literally. Human Fly can spit acid powerful enough to easily destroy thick metal and wood (https://m.imgur.com/9z7uq4D) through one of Quan Chi's portals.
  • Holding Your Breath. If for some reason, winds that knock mechs back fails to force the air into your stomach, well you will just be forced to do it by Quan Chi (not sure if this is hypnotism or TK but neither are banned) who can force someone to open their mouths and walk towards their death (https://streamable.com/4ae80).
  • Healing Factor. This ability will prolong the fight, but it can still be countered by Quan Chi who can absorb life essence (https://streamable.com/a87mc) which should counter act healing.
  • Immunity. Most annoyingly, you could just be straight up immune. Which is fine, because Human Fly will eat you instead (https://i.imgur.com/bhGRYRF_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium). How? Well I don't think anyone has a team of poison immune characters, at most I think people will have 1 immune character. Lucky for me, Human Fly is going to be one of the fastest ones in any fight, as he has speed to contend with the king of street levelers himself (https://m.imgur.com/w1iLqtR) and the speed to catch Spider Woman by surprise (https://m.imgur.com/5Ctt61w). Why does this matter? Because all it would take is one shot from his wings to KO most street levers, ask Moon Knight (https://i.imgur.com/LdFTNnF_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium) or Black Cat (https://m.imgur.com/kDEL8QU).

Questions

I can think of 2 things that you ask, so I will answer them right off the bat.

  • Where do you get the synergy? Good question, and while I would argue that when you break the plan down to its roots it doesn't need much team work, I will instead take the easy way out and will explain that both Quan Chi and the Joker are both master strategists and manipulators, and both have teamed up with their nemesis and had good synergy.
  • Range Of Portals. Well, Quan Chi himself can teleport across realms quite easily. It also seems as though he can create inter-realm portals as he is able to somehow kill a person in-between portals (https://streamable.com/elpsh).

TL;DR

Basically, unless you are 100% immune to poison, you will be poisoned at the start of the battle. And if you are immune, then you will have to deal with the Human Fly catching you by surprise and zapping you with his Ultra Sonic Backlash which should KO any street leveler (even that dragon since his wings can crack even large overpasses https://i.imgur.com/FF3IxAN_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium).

Counters

My plan should make quick work of your team, meaning your plan is moot. But I will counter this anyway.

Drogon will then just carpet-bomb the whole battlefield with his fire:

Against a guy who has shields that tank lightning (https://streamable.com/1jqip) and a guy who can shield explosions point blank (https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11130/111305092/5828799-1853931356-giphy.gif)? Well, good luck then.

While Hawkeye snipes your team with arrows. He can accurately fire arrows from a speeding truck and even from on board a fighter jet so sniping targets from atop Drogon's back should pose no real challenge for him:

Even assuming his bow isn't transmuted as soon as he pulls an arrow (which it would be). Quan Chi and Human Fly deal with bullets no problem so I don't see Hawkeye doing anything (https://streamable.com/4ljx1) (https://i.imgur.com/jr1TUCk_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium).

Your team is kinda useless against Drogon honestly. The only flyer on your team is Human Fly and I don't really see what he can do here, lacking ranged weapons.

Acid that can melt steel and sonic attacks that crack roads, Human Fly has powerful ranged attacks. Which doesn't even matter since he should be able to speed around the dragon to choose the distance. So yeah, unless the dragon is really durable and immune to acid, I would say that the Human Fly solos him

Other than him, well Joker, Quan Chi, Ka-Zar and Zabu are sitting ducks, and maybe Tenzin can survive for a bit if he can redirect the fire with his airbending but I'd like to see how powerful are the winds that he can summon because Drogon's fire is pretty intense.

Assuming they can't just port attacks to your and block your fire, but alas they can do both.

I'll post strength/skill showings for Hellboy if and when necessary. He should be able to give a hell of a fight if not outright beat anyone on your team individually, and with Drogon and Hawkeye helping him, he can't lose.

First, you need to show poison immunity for him. Then you need to show that Ultra Sonic Backlash does not OHKO him. After that, I would like to see his feats, especially ones above KaZar's (my weakest member) own feat if over powering Kraven the Hunter (https://i.imgur.com/f4oIoks_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium).

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#15 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm:

Your strategy - flaws:

Joker first uses the poison he used against the Amazons (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPggqLoNM9w) which is then bended by Tenzin using powerful winds (https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11130/111305092/5828734-7204839888-44620.gif) towards Quan Chi portals which he opens right in your teams faces (https://streamable.com/j8asz). So basically your team will be caught off guard and will be forced to breath in poisonous gas.

Well, that's very creative, I'll give you that much. However I don't see this working at all. Joker, as far as you have shown, can only unleash his gas in small puffs:

No Caption Provided

It isn't a thick substance and it disperses into the air very quickly, like perfume. If Tenzin uses his airbending on it, he will just make it disperse that much faster and that would make it kinda useless. Fact is, Joker's gas is only effective if he puts it right in your face, from point blank, and trying to use powerful winds on it would make it absolutely null and void.

Second point I;d like to make, is that our teams start out of sight so Quan Chi won't know where he needs to open his portal. He will only see my team when they're up in the air and on the move, and he would have to open his portals at exactly the right place and time, which I don't see him doing.

My team doesn't have any of those contingencies that you proposed, but that's fine because the Joker gas will just be useless here.

As for the transmutation, I'd like to know how far away can Quan Chi use this ability from. Could he do it to someone flying high above him? The guy in this GIF (Liu Kang?) appeared to have been very close to Quan Chi. I mean, Quan Chi didn't appear in the GIF but if this guy was going to use a melee weapon I;d guess he was right in front of him.

Dealing with Human Fly:

He's the only one on your team who can actually engage my team in this fight, but I don't see him lasting very long. He has ranged attacks, true, but my team's ranged attacks have better range by far. First of all, there's Drogon's fire. Human Fly might have good combat speed, but his flight speed isn't good enough to avoid being roasted. Drogon's fire-breath has pretty damn good range:

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His flames can reach a lot farther than Human Fly's attacks, so he would be the first to attack. Then you have to consider the actual surface that the flames cover, which is pretty big. Here's what the one of the show's directors said regarding that (source):

“The dragons this year are the size of 747s,” director Matt Shakman tells EW. “Drogon is the biggest of the bunch — his flame is 30-feet in diameter!”

So I highly doubt Human fly can avoid Drogon's fire.

Then there's Hawkeye, who is definitely skilled enough to tag Human Fly while he's on the move. He's tagged fast-moving targets before:

Here in "Age of Ultron" for example:

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Or here in "Avengers", which he did without even looking:

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He also has trick arrows that can help him catch Human Fly by surprise:

For example there's this one that he used in "Civil War", that splits into numerous smaller arrows in mid-flight:

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Also there's this one that he used in "Avengers", which releases automatic fire in a circle after it hits:

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Or this one, also from "Age of Ultron", that is triggered by a timer (which means it can go off in mid air) and releases a huge shockwave:

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He has very impressive rate of fire, he can shoot faster than an arrow per second:

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With Drogon and Clint around, I don't see Human Fly lasting very long. His attacks are powerful but they have very short range. I can totally see him getting one-shot by an explosive arrow honestly.

Dealing with the shields:

Quan Chi and Tenzin both have pretty good shields, but they've only protected them against attacks that cover very small surface and only from one direction. What are they going to do when Drogon flies right above him while breathing a flame that's 30 ft in diameter? Also, Drogon's fire is far more intense than anything that they dealt with in what you've shown so far. It's so intense that it literally reduces men to ash in a matter of seconds:

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Hellboy:

Honestly I think he'd be too much for anyone on your team in a 1v1. His durability is pretty absurd:

Gets up immediately after having his head repeatedly run over by a train:

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Here Hellboy gets repeatedly slammed into marble floor by Sammael hard enough to create huge holes in it, then thrown across an entire room while going through several museum display boxes and out the window, and falling from a 4th/5th story window, and he's completely fine and gets back up immediately:

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Shakes off a blast from Liz Sherman that's powerful enough to blow down an armored steel door and a thick concrete wall like it was nothing:

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Uses his own body as a conductor to fry Sammael with electricity:

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Sets off an entire belt of Vulcan-65 grenades (they aren't standard gear) inside the Ogdru Jahad's belly and shakes it off with minimal damage:

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Also as you've seen he is 100% fireproof.

His strength is somewhere in the multi-ton category:

A very casual punch from Hellboy can stop a speeding car and send it flying several meters up in the air:

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Punches a huge hole in a meter-thick concrete wall (off-screen):

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Lifts a huge metal cog:

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And he might not look the part but he is extremely skilled as well:

While Hellboy is heavily drunk and seriously holding back, he keeps up with Prince Nuada for a while (but loses eventually):

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Puts Prince Nuada on the defensive in their rematch:

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. Here's a testament of Prince Nuada's own skill, where you can see him solo-stomping a large number of warriors with absolute ease. There's also this scene of Nuada training, and he displays great speed, agility, dexterity and precision.

Then there's his gun, the Good Samaritan:

Fires with enough force to blast holes through stone pillars and knock Sammael a few meters back:

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Accuracy - can hit 2 Tooth Fairies (about the size of a tarantula) in mid-air with one shot:

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Hellboy can reload it in under 2 seconds:

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If Hellboy gets on the ground, he can beat anyone on your team in a 1v1. He can take out Joker, Tenzin, Ka-Zar and Zabu with his gun as none of them have any feats to suggest otherwise, and then proceed to out-muscle Quan Chi, while Drogon and Hawkeye make it easier with air-support, which works very well with Hellboy's fire immunity.

I don't see anyone other than Human Fly lasting very long against him, and if Human Fly engages him then there'd be absolutely nothing stopping Drogon and Hawkeye to smite your whole team from above.

Summary:

  • Your strategy, while creative, is not very applicable. Joker's gas is only useful from literally point blank and trying to blow it into the portals with Tenzin's winds would make it disperse into the air.
  • Quan Chi would have to place his portals very accurately as well which I don't see him accomplishing.
  • Human Fly is out-ranged, since even his ranged attacks have pretty lousy range compared to Drogon and Hawkeye, both of which capable of tagging him pretty easily.
  • Your team's shields have never dealt with an attack as intense as Drogon's fire, nor with an attack that covers so much surface.
  • Hellboy can beat anyone on your team in a 1v1 if he chooses to get on the ground.

Your move my friend.

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#16 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

Counters: Strategy

Well, that's very creative, I'll give you that much. However I don't see this working at all. Joker, as far as you have shown, can only unleash his gas in small puffs:

It isn't a thick substance and it disperses into the air very quickly, like perfume.

That would be true if he only used his littler puffer to disperse the gas but he does not. His flower can also disperse gas, which is important because gas from his flower acts differently, unlike puffs and more like a small cloud until breathed in.

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If Tenzin uses his airbending on it, he will just make it disperse that much faster and that would make it kinda useless. Fact is, Joker's gas is only effective if he puts it right in your face, from point blank, and trying to use powerful winds on it would make it absolutely null and void.

He would't just use a powerful blast to push the gas, no, he will bend the gas itself with air. Making the Joker Gas even more stable. Like so

No Caption Provided

Except Tenzin would be using the the move in a combat situation so he apply a lot more force. Also, keep in mind that the people bending the smoke in the GIF are all noob benders, so this is basically child's play for a master like Tenzin.

Second point I;d like to make, is that our teams start out of sight so Quan Chi won't know where he needs to open his portal. He will only see my team when they're up in the air and on the move, and he would have to open his portals at exactly the right place and time, which I don't see him doing.

From the GIF you showed of the dragon moving, it didn't seem like it was so fast that Quan Chi can't keep up. Especially when Quan Chi can use magic to defend from bullets and lightning. And remember the bolt of lightning started to travel before Quan Chi put up his shield, as you can see here.

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My team doesn't have any of those contingencies that you proposed, but that's fine because the Joker gas will just be useless here.

Your team had a good run. May they rest in peace.

As for the transmutation, I'd like to know how far away can Quan Chi use this ability from. Could he do it to someone flying high above him? The guy in this GIF (Liu Kang?) appeared to have been very close to Quan Chi. I mean, Quan Chi didn't appear in the GIF but if this guy was going to use a melee weapon I;d guess he was right in front of him.

In that particular scene they were just across a room from one another. But Quan Chi's range for using magic is much greater than that, as I have said before, his portals can cross realms.

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So I would argue that his actual range is as far as he can see.

Counters: Dealing with Human Fly

He's the only one on your team who can actually engage my team in this fight, but I don't see him lasting very long.

Stopping you right there. Not only can Quan Chi just port my team onto your dragon. As he is able to make portals around any given battlefield.

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But Joker also has ranged attacks, in the form of a rocket launcher, which is powerful enough to knock out 4 heroes including Captain Marvel. I couldn't turn this into a GIF but I time stamped it here (you only have to watch about 5-10 seconds of the vid). So even if Quan Chi couldn't port Joker to your team for some reason, and my poison fails (even with you having no contingencies). Joker can just fire RPGs at your dragon and blow it up.

He has ranged attacks, true, but my team's ranged attacks have better range by far. First of all, there's Drogon's fire. Human Fly might have good combat speed, but his flight speed isn't good enough to avoid being roasted. Drogon's fire-breath has pretty damn good range:

Human Fly can fly many times faster than a car (takes him less than 15 minutes to cross a distance that would take a car an hour).

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With that speed, he can just fly behind the dragon to avoid his attacks. Also while Human Fly has good combat speed, showing like the one below is also travel speed.

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Again, catching Spidey by surprise.

Then there's Hawkeye, who is definitely skilled enough to tag Human Fly while he's on the move. He's tagged fast-moving targets before:

Do you really think that the things Hawkeye was hitting is even as fast as Spidey? Because Human Fly is fast enough to surprise Spidey consistently. Even if those speeders where somehow faster than anyone ever thought they were, it is not like arrows will do much of anything, not even bullets from Frank Castle's gun fazes him.

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He also has trick arrows that can help him catch Human Fly by surprise:

Nothing you showed here is that impressive when Human Fly can block bullets easily. Except maybe the shortwave arrow, but Human fly is the guy who took a beating from a mad Spidey yet remained conscious until the last blow (heck he was still talking like nothing happened to him while Spidey paused from beating on him).

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So your shockwave arrow that just knocks people of their feet, will do nothing against HF.

With Drogon and Clint around, I don't see Human Fly lasting very long. His attacks are powerful but they have very short range. I can totally see him getting one-shot by an explosive arrow honestly.

I can tot6ally see him closing the distance, spitting acid on your, dodging your attacks then repeating the process until you die. Only one of us has recovered from a venom blast in seconds, and it isn't you.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And Venom Blasts are strong enough to KO WBN.

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So even if you hit HF, he can shake it off. But every attack he lands, eats away at your health, his acid should be extremely damaging, one hit to your wings and you go down.

Counters: Dealing With Shields

Quan Chi and Tenzin both have pretty good shields, but they've only protected them against attacks that cover very small surface and only from one direction. What are they going to do when Drogon flies right above him while breathing a flame that's 30 ft in diameter?

They don't need to care about how good your AoE is, it could be 100 feet wide but it makes no difference if Tenzin can create shields that cover his entire body and what's behind him.

Also, Drogon's fire is far more intense than anything that they dealt with in what you've shown so far. It's so intense that it literally reduces men to ash in a matter of seconds:

Funnily enough P'Li's attacks can take down a dragon (legendary firebenders in the Avatar universe).

Loading Video...

That is more impressive to me then buring normal humans. Also Quan Chi blocked lightning, how is any fire more intense than lightning?

Hellboy:

Honestly, anyone in my team beats him 1v1. But since I don't want to focus on this too much (since poison, and acid should easily wreck him) I will show how Kazar and Zabu could beat him by themselves, assuming for some reason that Joker doesn't try to use the RPG on him or his acid or his poison, and Quan Chi and Tenzin don't blast him with magic or air that can tear through demons and launch mechs. Assuming none of that happens for some weird reason, KaZar and Zabu still beat him.

Speed:

You missed this oh so important category. Speed will make it so Hellboy doesn't land a shot.

No Caption Provided

Seriously, KaZar is crazy agile.

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Strength:

Hellboy was impressive but KaZar can match him.

KaZar is strong enough to use a tree as a weapon (which he broke off with Zabu's aid)

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And lift and throw boulders above his head.

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He can even snap chains like nothing.

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Fighting Ability:

Instead of showing you KaZar's skill, I will instead show you how he does against people with great skill.

Like Black Panther.

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Or Daredevil

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Or Kraven

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All 3 of whom, would dance around Hellboy.

How The Battle Goes:

Basically, all you have is durability but KaZar is faster than you and has the aid of Zabu. I imagine the battle to go something like this.

No Caption Provided

Conclusion:

By your own admission my plan should work

My team doesn't have any of those contingencies that you proposed,

And the only thing you offered was a holes in my strategy which I countered. So my plan makes it so your team dies in about 15 seconds, GG. Even if it didn't work, my team is overwhelmingly versatile with enough firepower to match and beat your dragon. And in a a 1v1 fight Hellboy would get eat by KaZar and Zabu while Human Fly can take down your dragon and Hawkeye.

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#17 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm:

Your plan - why it won't work:

That would be true if he only used his littler puffer to disperse the gas but he does not. His flower can also disperse gas, which is important because gas from his flower acts differently, unlike puffs and more like a small cloud until breathed in.

I honestly don't see the difference. It's the same substance and these little puffs are the exact same size whether he uses the puffer or the flower.

He would't just use a powerful blast to push the gas, no, he will bend the gas itself with air. Making the Joker Gas even more stable. Like so

The problem is that the Joker "gas" isn't really in gas state, it's just very thin liquid. It's called aerosol. Tenzin is an airbender and cannot manipulate aerosol.

From the GIF you showed of the dragon moving, it didn't seem like it was so fast that Quan Chi can't keep up. Especially when Quan Chi can use magic to defend from bullets and lightning. And remember the bolt of lightning started to travel before Quan Chi put up his shield, as you can see here.

I don't see how his reaction speed has anything to do with his ability to accurately position his portals for your tactic to work.

In that particular scene they were just across a room from one another. But Quan Chi's range for using magic is much greater than that, as I have said before, his portals can cross realms.

So I would argue that his actual range is as far as he can see.

I don't see how portals have anything to do with transmutation. Two completely different abilities, you can't use one to scale the other.

Human Fly:

Stopping you right there. Not only can Quan Chi just port my team onto your dragon. As he is able to make portals around any given battlefield.

And?

But Joker also has ranged attacks, in the form of a rocket launcher, which is powerful enough to knock out 4 heroes including Captain Marvel. I couldn't turn this into a GIF but I time stamped it here (you only have to watch about 5-10 seconds of the vid). So even if Quan Chi couldn't port Joker to your team for some reason, and my poison fails (even with you having no contingencies). Joker can just fire RPGs at your dragon and blow it up.

Cool. Accuracy feats for him? Hitting 4 people who weren't even moving from a few meters away is easy. Hitting a moving target that's very far is something else entirely.

Human Fly can fly many times faster than a car (takes him less than 15 minutes to cross a distance that would take a car an hour).

How fast would the car be moving? 40 kph? 60 kph? 150 kph? That's a very broad comparison and not very applicable here. Hawkeye was sniping targets moving extremely fast as well. Since you've shown Human Fly tanking projectiles, I would say that he won't try to dodge Hawkeye's arrows which would be his downfall. One explosive arrow is all it would take. Y'know, like the one that destroyed the Chitauri vehicles and sent Loki flying:

No Caption Provided

With that speed, he can just fly behind the dragon to avoid his attacks.

Drogon doesn't have to aim his fire breath though, he can just trace Human Fly and keep on breathing, his flame will catch him eventually, and if it doesn't then Hawkeye will.

showing like the one below is also travel speed.

Eh... Peter had his back turned and he was also still dazed by the ultra-sonic wings.

Do you really think that the things Hawkeye was hitting is even as fast as Spidey?

Yes. Far faster. They were easily keeping up with Iron Man:

No Caption Provided

Anyway, you're mixing up combat speed with reaction speed with travel speed and those things are all very different. Human Fly can travel fast but not as fast as Iron Man. Hawkeye can tag him easily.

Even if those speeders where somehow faster than anyone ever thought they were, it is not like arrows will do much of anything, not even bullets from Frank Castle's gun fazes him.

Cool, that serves to show that he won't try to dodge and an explosive arrow will do for him. There's also Hellboy's Good Samaritan which is a lot more powerful than a normal gun.

So your shockwave arrow that just knocks people of their feet, will do nothing against HF.

No, it knocks people unconscious, not just off their feet. In any case I see the explosive arrow playing a part here and that will one-shot Human Fly.

I can tot6ally see him closing the distance, spitting acid on your, dodging your attacks then repeating the process until you die. Only one of us has recovered from a venom blast in seconds, and it isn't you.

I believe I have proved how my team can tag him easily. Drogon can just breathe fire and the size of the flame will do the rest, or Hawkeye can just snipe him.

So even if you hit HF, he can shake it off. But every attack he lands, eats away at your health, his acid should be extremely damaging, one hit to your wings and you go down.

He won't get that close.

Shields:

They don't need to care about how good your AoE is, it could be 100 feet wide but it makes no difference if Tenzin can create shields that cover his entire body and what's behind him.

Suuuuuure, like he did here? Wait...

No Caption Provided

Or here?

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Yeeeeeah no.

Funnily enough P'Li's attacks can take down a dragon (legendary firebenders in the Avatar universe).

Those blasts are very weak compared to Drogon's fire. You need only look at the video from your opener to see it. Her blasts did no damage to the building:

No Caption Provided

Now let's compare it to the fire created by Drogon's brothers, Viserion and Rhaegal, who easily brought down the stone walls of the Great Pyramid:

No Caption Provided

They are both smaller and weaker than he is, and besides it was season 6 when they were all far smaller and weaker than they are now. Drogon's fire is FAR more powerful than these blasts, and far more powerful than the lightning that Quan Chi blocked.

That is more impressive to me then buring normal humans. Also Quan Chi blocked lightning, how is any fire more intense than lightning?

Show me either Raiden or P'Li disintegrating humans into dust with a singe puff of flame and I'll concede that they are more powerful. Raiden failed to do more than knock Quan Chi and Shang Tsung on their asses with his lightning even when it hit, it's not nearly as powerful as Drogon's fire. The worst I remember Raiden's casual lightning doing in any MK game is inflicting some bad burns. Not reducing men (in armor) to literal dust.

Hellboy:

He will beat anyone on your team 1v1, and easily at that. The feats you've shown of Ka Zar's speed aren't really bullet timing, it only shown people missing him. Hellboy can, and will tag him with the Good Samaritan. If they get to a straight-up fight, then I don't see Ka Zar doing anything to him. His strength is impressive but Hellboy endured much worse. He was repeatedly run over by a train and barely seemed to notice... Ka Zar is doing nothing more than annoy him, seriously his durability is way too much. There's also this that Hellboy survived with no injury other than a small bruise on his forehead:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Seriously, I won't even delve into other categories such as speed. Ka Zar is too weak to do anything to Hellboy other than annoy him. He might be able to avoid him for a bit (which is also arguable given Hellboy's performance against Prince Nuada) but he isn't doing anything to him. The moment Hellboy tags him, he is dead. I will also point out that most of your showings for him are REALLY old and those characters weren't as good back then as they are currently.

assuming for some reason that Joker doesn't try to use the RPG on him

Did you miss the part where Hellboy took a blast that broke through a meter-thick concrete wall right to the face without even feeling it? Or a whole belt of grenades exploding right in his face with little to no damage? Hellboy will just shoot him, that's literally it.

and Quan Chi and Tenzin don't blast him with magic or air that can tear through demons and launch mechs. Assuming none of that happens for some weird reason, KaZar and Zabu still beat him.

The only thing I can see Tenzin doing to him is keeping him at a distance. It will only delay Hellboy from killing them but nothing else really.

Hellboy alone will give your team fits without even considering the aid from Hawkeye and Drogon.

Conclusion:

Nothing has changed. Your plan is creative but very applicable and has too many flaws to work. All my team has to do is just carpet-bomb the whole battlefield with fire that's far more intense than anything your team has ever dealt with. Your shields will do you no good at all.

Human Fly is fast but not as fast as the Chitauri which Hawkeye was sniping with ease like fish in a barrel. Those things were keeping up with Iron Man in flight and Hawkeye was bringing them down without even looking. Human Fly will go down either to Drogon's flames, and if not then he will go down to Hawkeye's explosive arrows that could destroy the Chitauri vehicles and send Loki flying.

If Hellboy decides to go down and fight your team on the ground, he will be able to bring down most of them with bullets from his Good Samaritan. The ones that he doesn't, he will be able to out-muscle. His durability is far too good for even Ka Zar who is the strongest on your team, his skill is very good as well and he is a multi-tonner in strength. A casual punch from him sent a speeding car flipping in the air, he is far stronger than anyone on your team.

If you want we can open this for votes. If not we can go another round.

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#18 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: One more round, browsing through your post, I can see problems already.

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#19 Edited by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

Counters: Strategy

I honestly don't see the difference. It's the same substance and these little puffs are the exact same size whether he uses the puffer or the flower.

Looking at the GIFs already shows you the difference, the puffer puffs gas which disperse right away, the flower sprays gas that has some sustain.

The problem is that the Joker "gas" isn't really in gas state, it's just very thin liquid. It's called aerosol.

Based on what? In the show he calls it his Joker Gas, which I can prove, but I won't have to because........

Tenzin is an airbender and cannot manipulate aerosol.

You are acting as if those benders did not just bend smoke from a scented candle. As you may know, smoke is not a gas, and in fact contains solid, liquid and gas particles (source) not only that but scented candles have oils in their wax, which is what is responsible for the scent (source), meaning when they burn they release more liquid particles than normal smoke does. So yes, airbenders can bend aerosol. If you need more proof in the form of scans here is Zaheer using airbending to bend steam

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And create a large snow storm

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So again, as long as air can carry it, it can be bent with air.

I don't see how portals have anything to do with transmutation. Two completely different abilities, you can't use one to scale the other.

They are both magic, unless stated otherwise it should always be assumed that all spells have the same range. And it is not as if he is only good with teleporation, here he uses necromancy on people not in the room

Loading Video...

And here he uses illusions across realms.

Loading Video...

Human Fly

And?

This statement is 100% wrong.

"He's the only one on your team who can actually engage my team in this fight"

Cool. Accuracy feats for him? Hitting 4 people who weren't even moving from a few meters away is easy. Hitting a moving target that's very far is something else entirely.

Out of all the GIFs you have shown, this is the dragon at its highest

No Caption Provided

From that GIF we get a ground perspective, meaning the dragon would be that big of a target. A normal real life soldier target could hit a size that big easily. And remember, that is the dragon's highest (as you have shown thus far), it flies even lower when it attacks in the other GIFs you have shown like this and this. So as of this moment I have no reason to look for feats for the Joker as anyone could land that shot.

How fast would the car be moving? 40 kph? 60 kph? 150 kph? That's a very broad comparison and not very applicable here.

Human Fly is more than 4x faster than a car, yet it is not applicable?

Hawkeye was sniping targets moving extremely fast as well. Since you've shown Human Fly tanking projectiles, I would say that he won't try to dodge Hawkeye's arrows which would be his downfall.

Please look at your claim. In my scan he was in a narrow corridor, now look at the battlefield. As you can see there is no reason for him to tank attacks, none.

One explosive arrow is all it would take. Y'know, like the one that destroyed the Chitauri vehicles and sent Loki flying:

The one that failed to damage Loki at all?

Drogon doesn't have to aim his fire breath though, he can just trace Human Fly and keep on breathing, his flame will catch him eventually,

No, he has limited range, due to his neck. If HF goes behind him, he would have to turn his whole body around to chase him ( in that time he would already have acid burning him though but whatever) which leaves him open to an RPG attack from Joker.

and if it doesn't then Hawkeye will.

To be honest, Hawkeye never will.

Eh... Peter had his back turned and he was also still dazed by the ultra-sonic wings.

So what about these?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Yes. Far faster. They were easily keeping up with Iron Man:

MCU Iron man isn't even a bullet timer, I mean come on man, falling cars tagged him.

Anyway, you're mixing up combat speed with reaction speed with travel speed and those things are all very different.

He can fly fast enough to blitz Spidey (travel), he can kick fast enough to catch Spidey (combat) and saying reaction is different when the other two are the same is crazy.

Human Fly can travel fast but not as fast as Iron Man. Hawkeye can tag him easily.

You need to read more Spider-Man comics, this guy is an extremely casual bullet timer.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

And Human Fly catches him by surprise. So HF is much faster than Iron Man, like he would blitz iron man. In fact if you want to do another CaV after this with Spider-Man or Human Fly or any Spidey rogue vs MCU Iron Man, I would be down.

Cool, that serves to show that he won't try to dodge and an explosive arrow will do for him. There's also Hellboy's Good Samaritan which is a lot more powerful than a normal gun.

Again, location matters a lot. You can't just take one random showing and call it in character while ignoring context.

No, it knocks people unconscious, not just off their feet.

Makes no difference.

In any case I see the explosive arrow playing a part here and that will one-shot Human Fly.

1. It is not that powerful. 2. HF is too fast to hit. 3. The explosive doesn't go off right away so he could just spit acid on it as it draws near.

He won't get that close.

An assertion without evidence. HF is more than fast enough and Quan Chi can use portals, I'm not even going to pretend that portals would be applied here anymore.

Shield:

Suuuuuure, like he did here? Wait...

Or here?

Yeeeeeah no.

I don't understand. Are you saying that hidden within your dragon is 4 master benders that can surprise and overwhelm Tenzin? Because if not, then I don't get the point of showing those context ridden scans. It's pretty clear from the video I showed in my first post, that Tenzin was tagged by surprise then dog piled. That does not at all change the fact that he can defend against P'Li.

Those blasts are very weak compared to Drogon's fire. You need only look at the video from your opener to see it. Her blasts did no damage to the building:

Maybe because she hit the floor?

Now let's compare it to the fire created by Drogon's brothers, Viserion and Rhaegal, who easily brought down the stone walls of the Great Pyramid:

Let's not compare random showings to each other, instead let us compare similar showings. Luckily, P'Li has blown up watch towers before.

No Caption Provided

They are both smaller and weaker than he is, and besides it was season 6 when they were all far smaller and weaker than they are now. Drogon's fire is FAR more powerful than these blasts, and far more powerful than the lightning that Quan Chi blocked.

How about we let the voters decide?

Show me either Raiden or P'Li disintegrating humans into dust with a singe puff of flame and I'll concede that they are more powerfu

You are asking me to show you a hero vaporizing people? Or are you asking me to show you a villain from a kid's show vaporizing people? Because it is pretty obvious that such showings do not exist (also a puff of flame? One uses lightning and the other explosions....) although Raiden does do this

No Caption Provided

l. Raiden failed to do more than knock Quan Chi and Shang Tsung on their asses with his lightning even when it hit,

He failed to hurt people who are among the strongest in their realm. Literally everyone in MK is super humanly strong, enough to compete with world conquerors and demi gods.

it's not nearly as powerful as Drogon's fire. The worst I remember Raiden's casual lightning doing in any MK game is inflicting some bad burns. Not reducing men (in armor) to literal dust.

With a charged attack, he brought down an entire temple.

No Caption Provided

Raiden just doesn't like killing people.

Hellboy:

He will beat anyone on your team 1v1, and easily at that.

Maybe if it were opposite day.

The feats you've shown of Ka Zar's speed aren't really bullet timing, it only shown people missing him.

No, it is just an old comic so it couldn't portray motion as well. This one below is KaZar bullet timing in motion (unless he is just the luckiest man in the world.

No Caption Provided

Hellboy can, and will tag him with the Good Samaritan.

Even if KaZar is just an aim dodger, Hellboy would not touch him.

If they get to a straight-up fight, then I don't see Ka Zar doing anything to him. His strength is impressive but Hellboy endured much worse. He was repeatedly run over by a train and barely seemed to notice... Ka Zar is doing nothing more than annoy him, seriously his durability is way too much. There's also this that Hellboy survived with no injury other than a small bruise on his forehead:

KaZar can hurt even Skaar

No Caption Provided

And with that the rest of your section is moot....unless Hellboy can tank more than Skaar, and no that is not PIS for KaZar, he beats monsters and dinosaurs to survive and no Skaar did not lower his durability just cause he didn't catch the first hit. If you want PIS, you can have this

No Caption Provided

Hellboy alone will give your team fits without even considering the aid from Hawkeye and Drogon.

To be honest, I didn't want to fight dirty but this is what actually happens

Loading Video...

Hellboy is forced to kill himself. That's it, that is how easily he would be to deal with. Hellboy is also not immune to acid or poison, so he gets one shot.

Conclusion:

Nothing has changed. Your plan is creative but very applicable and has too many flaws to work.

You have brought to the table no actual flaws. I have proven that Tenzin can bend it if it was gas or not (and it is gas).

All my team has to do is just carpet-bomb the whole battlefield with fire that's far more intense than anything your team has ever dealt with. Your shields will do you no good at all.

You talk big but you have just shown breaking walls and melting people. It's not that different from destroying watch towers and destroying cyborgs. Also, Quan Chi and Tenzin can stack their defenses, so there is no way you are breaking them.

Human Fly is fast but not as fast as the Chitauri which Hawkeye was sniping with ease like fish in a barrel. Those things were keeping up with Iron Man in flight and Hawkeye was bringing them down without even looking.

A lot of what you said is debatable, but this is something I can say is false with 100% certainty. HF is faster than a bullet or is at the very least as fast as one (which is how he catches Spidey, a casual bullet timer), the closest showings Iron Man has to that is in Iron Man 1 where he wore a different armor (which is where his best feats come from) but even then, HF is faster than Iron Man 1 armor.

Human Fly will go down either to Drogon's flames, and if not then he will go down to Hawkeye's explosive arrows that could destroy the Chitauri vehicles and send Loki flying.

Trying to his HF with your flames, is like trying to hit an actual sentient fly with a heavy flamethrower. Hawkeye taging him would be a miracle, HF letting the arrow explode would be an even bigger one.

If Hellboy decides to go down and fight your team on the ground, he will be able to bring down most of them with bullets from his Good Samaritan.

Wow, he can negate magic? I mean, how else would he shot my team which has a sorcerer that can create bullet proof barriers in the time it takes for a bullet to fire?

The ones that he doesn't, he will be able to out-muscle. His durability is far too good for even Ka Zar who is the strongest on your team, his skill is very good as well and he is a multi-tonner in strength. A casual punch from him sent a speeding car flipping in the air, he is far stronger than anyone on your team.

KaZar can hurt a man who would out muscle Hellboy with a single finger. Also, Hellboy is susceptible to my team's hax, so he does exactly zero damage before being one shot 3 different ways. In fact while he is free falling would be the perfect time to get free shots at him, making him dead before he hits the ground.

If you want we can open this for votes. If not we can go another round.

I'm done now.

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#21 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm:

Strategy:

Looking at the GIFs already shows you the difference, the puffer puffs gas which disperse right away, the flower sprays gas that has some sustain.

No, there was literally no difference... I'll give you the point about the aerosol though, even though I can argue that aerosol is different from smoke in that it doesn't contain gas particles whatsoever, and the Joker Gas is definitely aerosol because physics, but I won't argue because it's a boring technical argument. I do stick by my point that Quan Chi won't be able to position his portals accurately enough.

They are both magic, unless stated otherwise it should always be assumed that all spells have the same range.

No, why would we assume that? You're making this up, you can't assume something like that.

Out of all the GIFs you have shown, this is the dragon at its highest

OK then:

No Caption Provided

Better?

The people looking up were also standing on a hill in this scene by the way.

Anyway, is that RPG even standard gear for Joker? I kinda doubt that he carries it around anywhere he goes.

Human Fly is more than 4x faster than a car, yet it is not applicable?

As I said, can you put a number on this speed? 4X faster than a car can be lower than 120 kph or it can be over 500 kph.

Please look at your claim. In my scan he was in a narrow corridor, now look at the battlefield. As you can see there is no reason for him to tank attacks, none.

I don't remember seeing him dodging bullets either. What you're saying basically is "Human Fly never dodged bullets but he can dodge bullets". Cool, then I will argue that my team has never survived poison but they can still survive poison because reasons.

The one that failed to damage Loki at all?

Yes, it failed to damage a god who was trading blows with Thor, but it did blow his vehicle to pieces which is good enough.

No, he has limited range, due to his neck. If HF goes behind him, he would have to turn his whole body around to chase him ( in that time he would already have acid burning him though but whatever) which leaves him open to an RPG attack from Joker.

Or... Hawkeye will bring him down. You also neglect the fact that Hawkeye can bring down anyone on your team that's the ground very easily. One shockwave arrow will pretty much one-shot your team for at least a while.

MCU Iron man isn't even a bullet timer, I mean come on man, falling cars tagged him.

Again, you're mixing up travel speed with reaction speed. Iron Man flies faster than Human Fly, the Chitauri were flying as fast as Iron Man, Hawkeye tagged the Chitauri easily. It's simple math. That is all that needs to be said on the matter, Human Fly either burns to ash or gets blown up with an explosive arrow, piece of cake.

Again, location matters a lot. You can't just take one random showing and call it in character while ignoring context.

That claim would have been relevant if you would have shown bullet-timing feats for him, but you haven't.

1. It is not that powerful.

Is he more durable than the Chitauri vehicles? He isn't.

2. HF is too fast to hit.

He really isn't. He has good combat speed but his travel speed isn't too much for Clint. He was tagging Chitauri vehicles who were keeping pace with Iron Man from very long range without even looking. Human Fly is like a fish in a barrel for him.

3. The explosive doesn't go off right away so he could just spit acid on it as it draws near.

You never showed any reaction feat for him, so we can't just go off assuming that he is an arrow timer.

An assertion without evidence. HF is more than fast enough and Quan Chi can use portals, I'm not even going to pretend that portals would be applied here anymore.

So he's going to go inside the portals along with the poison? Won't that kill him?

Regardless, the moment he comes out of the portal he gets an arrow through his eye. Even if Quan Chi opens the portal behind my team, Hawkeye was able to detect Scarlet Witch sneaking up on him, and Scarlet Witch was able to sneak up on every other Avenger and bewitch them. Hawkeye was the only one who wasn't caught by surprise.

"Shields":

I don't understand. Are you saying that hidden within your dragon is 4 master benders that can surprise and overwhelm Tenzin?

The point was that he hasn't shown the ability to form the omnidirectional shield that you spoke of. If he could then why didn't he do it here?

Because if not, then I don't get the point of showing those context ridden scans. It's pretty clear from the video I showed in my first post, that Tenzin was tagged by surprise then dog piled. That does not at all change the fact that he can defend against P'Li.

The second GIF I posted was actually after Tenzin caught the other benders by surprise. He even launched 2 of them away with air-blasts. Then he clad himself in an omnidirectional air shield... and still got ragdolled like a child. That serves to show that not only are his shields useless, but also that his air-blasts failed to KO the guys that he used them against. He won't survive 5 seconds in this fight.

Maybe because she hit the floor?

Not even a scratch on the walls though? Even the kids that were running didn't even notice the blast and it went off like 3 meters away from them. By the way, this is the result of P'li's blast that Tenzin deflected:

No Caption Provided

Which is... nothing compared to what smaller dragons than Drogon did. Maybe P'Li can unleash blasts more powerful than Drogon's fire (not by what you've shown), but what Tenzin blocked was nothing compared to Drogon's flames.

Let's not compare random showings to each other, instead let us compare similar showings. Luckily, P'Li has blown up watch towers before.

All I see here is a blast from a distance. What is the damage that the building sustained? Did it even create a hole in the wall? Something? As shown by the image above, P'Li has nothing on Drogon, Tenzin has nothing on Drogon, and Drogon might as well be here by himself and solo your team in all honesty.

How about we let the voters decide?

Cool.

You are asking me to show you a hero vaporizing people? Or are you asking me to show you a villain from a kid's show vaporizing people? Because it is pretty obvious that such showings do not exist

Nice cop-out.

also a puff of flame? One uses lightning and the other explosions....

You haven't shown either of them disintegrating people with lightning and explosions so I don't see why that matters.

although Raiden does do this

Funny that you didn't show what the robots looked like after Raiden zapped them. For all we know from that GIF they walked away with no damage at all. I have shown you Drogon reducing people to dust in seconds and smaller, weaker dragons than him wrecking thick stone walls with their fire. You have shown me nothing that compares to it and you also haven't shown me anyone on your team capable of protecting himself from the entire battlefield getting carpet-bombed.

He failed to hurt people who are among the strongest in their realm. Literally everyone in MK is super humanly strong, enough to compete with world conquerors and demi gods.

I also didn't see him hurting other people too bad so that doesn't do much to support your claim. Worst I've ever seen him do (with casual lightning attacks) is inflict some 3rd degree burns on Liu Kang by the end of MK9.

With a charged attack, he brought down an entire temple.

He killed Quan Chi with it too so I don't see how this helps you.

Raiden just doesn't like killing people.

Well that sure isn't my problem. He has no feats to suggest his casual lightning can even come close to match Drogon's flame, therefore it can't. Heck he never even came close to matching the fire breath of Viserion or Rhaegal (Drogon's brothers).

Hellboy:

First of all, I don't think it will come down to Hellboy making it up-close-and-personal but let's keep toying with the idea.

Maybe if it were opposite day.

Hilarious.

No, it is just an old comic so it couldn't portray motion as well. This one below is KaZar bullet timing in motion (unless he is just the luckiest man in the world.

Cool aim dodging. Do you realize that literally every street level character in comics has showings similar or superior to this one? Besides, you've seen Hellboy's accuracy, I'd say he's more accurate than these fodder.

Even if KaZar is just an aim dodger, Hellboy would not touch him.

Even if he won't, then he will just punch him to pieces.

KaZar can hurt even Skaar

Suuuuuuuure... I'll leave that to the voters to decide whether a street-level character legitimately hurt a high-tier with a punch.

To be honest, I didn't want to fight dirty but this is what actually happens

I'd argue that it requires the target to be dazed or weakened because Quan Chi only ever uses that as a Fatality/X-Ray move, otherwise he would have just used it all the time. Which he doesn't.

Conclusion:

Still nothing has changed. Quan Chi has not shown the ability to place his portals accurately enough to make them effective against a fast-moving target while having to protect himself from fire, therefore your poison won't reach my team. Most of your team are sitting ducks to Drogon's fire and Clint's arrows.

Human Fly will try to reach my team and engage them, but both Drogon and Hawkeye can kill him before he gets close enough to attack. Hawkeye has effortlessly tagged Chitauri that were keeping pace with Iron Man, so he can tag Human Fly. You keep mixing up travel speed with reaction speed and combat speed. Human fly has impressive combat speed but will never get close enough to use it, no reaction speed to speak of (that you have shown at least) and good travel speed but not good enough to suggest he survives very long here. You also kept suggesting that he will dodge the arrows or melt them in mid-air with his acid despite showing absolutely zero reaction feats for him that suggest he is an arrow-timer, much less against a master marksman who can fire at a faster rate than one arrow per second. The sheer size of Drogon's flame will also be an elegant solution for his speed, far harder to outrace such a huge flame.

Your team's shields have never withstood anything half as powerful as the flames of Viserion or Rhaegal, much less Drogon, and will not save your team from a painful death. If Hellboy decides to hop down on the ground he can really beat anyone on your team 1v1 and with his air support he will make quick work of anyone on your team.

I'm done now.

Cool. @sirfizzwhizz you can open this for votes. I will tag some people who may be interested:

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#22 Posted by deactivated-5ab47f6017f34 (3189 posts) - - Show Bio

I will be giving my vote to @the_red_viper. His opponent had good points but they were still a little off. Viper pointed out why his opponents tactics won't work and why Drogon and Hawkeye's teamwork works so well.

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#23 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

@shade555 said:

I will be giving my vote to @the_red_viper. His opponent had good points but they were still a little off. Viper pointed out why his opponents tactics won't work and why Drogon and Hawkeye's teamwork works so well.

Thanks for your vote my friend.

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#24 Posted by DarthFallax (1638 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: @the_red_viper: I'm going to vote for TRV as well. Vipers posts were all-around solid, and I feel like he countered most of MH points pretty solidly. Both openers were pretty meh, but I had the impression that TRV could work around it easier. He explained the teamwork of Clint and Drogon pretty well, and his arguments about Hellboy were pretty good as well. As Tenzin is the only one I really know vs wise, I found that MH could've hyped him far more, and I think that he could've easily won the CaV if he explained the abilities of Quan Chi and Human Fly better and more extensive. That being said, Hellstorms 2nd post was neato, and I actually nearly was convinced by his last post. It was a good CaV, but in the end I'm going with The_Red_Viper.

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#25 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthfallax: Thanks mate, anything you think I could have done better?

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#26 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@shade555: You read the whole debate in 10 minutes? Impressive.

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#27 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthfallax: Can you explain how he countered my strategy further? By TRV's final post his counter to my strategy became accuracy and getting through his team, but at the start it was about the plan being riddled with holes like the gas dispersing.

Also, explain their abilities how? Quan Chi uses magic and Human Fly is a human with the powers of a fly.

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#28 Posted by Sawed_Off_It (13228 posts) - - Show Bio

I will try to give this a vote.

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#29 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#30 Posted by Wyldsong (9725 posts) - - Show Bio

Tomorrow evening I will finish reading this and try and drop a vote=)

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#31 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by Wyldsong (9725 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmmm...let's see if I can organize my thoughts as I type here, and hopefully I will have decided a winner by the time I am done. As a heads up, I am not interested in entering into any side debates about what I am presenting/saying. This is simply how I see the debate based on what was presented. Nothing more, nothing less. Please don't take offense to anything I say, as this is just my opinion, and I am trying to be as objective as possible here=)

@major_hellstorm: Interesting team composition, and I liked the plan of the air bending with the Joker gas. I thought it was very creative. That being said, where I didn't agree with your plans was being able to accurately place a portal versus a flying opponent, nor do I agree with scaling the transmutation magic based on the portals. I also felt the air shielding needed a bit more to be able prove it's ability to withstand damage. Kudos on using the Human Fly. That is not a character I thought I would ever see used in a CaV. I think you did well outlining his physical stats against the likes of Spider-Man. As for Ka-Zar, that was another character that was refreshing to see used in a CaV. I was kind of up and down on how I felt he was used. At some points I felt myself agreeing with a few of your points, but...while I won't scream PIS...I do feel the Skaar feat was a bit of an outlier. I think showing other feats of his striking force may have helped to bolster your argument in this instance.

@the_red_viper: Of course, another interesting team composition. I think for the most part, both of you had teams that had an overall decent synergy. Let's see...for the most part, I think I agreed with many of your points and assessment of the situation. At times though, it felt like you were being a bit dismissive of some of your opponents characters, but you did at least take the time to lay out your counter strategies against these characters. I felt like there was no real ground gained or lost against the Human Fly speed argument. As for the Hellboy/Ka-Zar discussion, I think this was a missed opportunity on your part to expand a bit more on him and his capabilities in combat. You did well in the initial post with discussing him, then we got a good durability feat...then it kind of devolved from there. This is one area where I really felt like you were kind of dismissive of the character, and your debate could have been enhanced a bit more by expanding a bit more on Hellboy and his feats and why he should take a majority over Ka-Zar.

Alright, if I think of anything else, I will come back and update, but after typing those thoughts out, I have to go with TRV in a close and hard fought debate. While there are many areas where I feel the debate was inconclusive, I was sold on the non-accuracy of the portals argument and the range/area of effect of Drogon's fire. Good work to both of you.

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#33 Edited by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: Thanks for reading this and for the vote mate. I'll take all that to mind. About Hellboy, I didn't expand on him a lot because he was more of a "plan B", and I felt confident enough in my "plan A". The feats that I did post for him were in my opinion his best though so I figured that posting more feats wouldn't make much difference anyway.

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#34 Posted by Wyldsong (9725 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: No worries and I get it. Still, my thought is, if you are going to discuss him, go all the way. It will do nothing but enhance your debate overall=)

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#35 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by Wyldsong (9725 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Well, it took two readings, and then typing out my thoughts to even get to a vote. I thought it was a close debate overall, and you did a great job my friend. I really appreciated the fact that you used characters that aren't over used on these forums. It was refreshing to see Ka-Zar and the Human Fly brought out in a debate=)

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#38 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: Thanks. Although I only used them cause they were severely underpriced. Lol