Street PYP 5.0: Boschepg vs Major Helstorm VOTING IS OPEN NOW

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#1 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Round One

@boschepg:

  • Kraven (4)
  • Kazar and Zabu (1)
  • Mockingbird (1)

@major_hellstorm:

  • Shocker (3)
  • Mysterio (2)
  • Darthhawk (1)

Rules

  • Comics are all current canon. Valiant is Pre and Post Reboot. Live Action gets feats from Expanded Universe based on said film. Manga gets Anime and Manga feats. Video Games get Expanded Universe feats based on said game.
  • All characters are in character, but no rivalries. Teamwork is not perfect with characters they never worked with before.
  • No BFR, but can teleport others around the battlefield.
  • Cannot Mentally KO or Mentally Control the enemy team. Applies to soul abilities as well. Anything else goes of Summons, Fodder, and Bystanders.
  • Time Manipulation is allowed only on the character who has it only. Can not Increase speed past Hypersonic.
  • Transmutation is allowed, but not directly on characters bodies.
  • Intangibility, Teleporting, and Transmutation forms of dismemberment are not allowed on enemy teams bodies, but everything else is fine.
  • Gear must remain Street Level.
  • Summons/Duplicates limited to Navy Seal Team quality. You cannot summon anything or duplicate enough to overwhelm a 6 man Navy Seal Team with ease.
  • Unsure, then ask. If things get out of hand, rulings will be made.

Battlefield

Top Team Starts far left. Bottom team starts far right.

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#2 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

Introducing My Team

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The Shocker

Since Shocker is the star of my team (and also because I already made an opener for him in one of my other CaVs), I will be posting an in-depth opener for him. Anyway......

Let me introduce to you Spidey's most underrated villain, the Shocker! The Shocker was a safe cracking engineer named Herman Schultz who escaped prison one day by making what will become his vibroshocker gauntlets, in his first very first issue (Amazing Spider-Man #46) he was able to best Spider-Man (although Spidey had a cast in the fight) and since then he joined multiple teams including the Sinister Six and Seven. But in recent years he has become a jobber so some people only know him as a jobber so I want to change that.

Stats:

The Shocker really relies on his smarts and his gauntlets so he doesn't have too many physical feats, that is not to say that he isn't impressive though.

Speed:

In terms of speed he is able to tag the likes of Spider-Man at a close range with a surprise attack. This may not seem to impressive but consider that Spidey should have better reaction speed than Tai so this proves that Shocker can tag him even at a further range.

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Shocker can also tag Spidey with physical attacks.

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Strength:

His strength is 12x more than that of an average human and he can hurt Spidey with his blows (albeit Spidey was already injured here but keep in mind this was Shocker's first issue, he got upgraded since then).

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Durability:

There are times where Shocker has shields this powerful

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But sadly that is inconsistent (he had an upgraded suit here). But he does still have auto shields which can deflect a punch from the Spider-Man

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And this isn't a one time thing either, he tanks another blow from Spidey below

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Smarts:

This is how the Shocker wins fights, not only did he build his suit but he can also use his powers in creative ways and use the environment to attack his opponents. You can see him use his gauntlets for temporary flight

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Left to right

And he gained the upper hand on Spider-Man after getting a shot off by using the environment

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And here is another creative use and example of environment manipulation.

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Gauntlets:

The real star of the show, the vibro shock gauntlets. These puppies can stagger the Spider-Man himself

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And with two gauntlets nearly put SPidey down (even though he says above that he can finish Spidey off with this attack, that really isn't the case)

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You also see his smarts here as Spidey cannot get him to come close with his taunts.

But Spidey isn't the only people that the Shocker used them on, he also OHKOd/BFR'd the Punisher with them

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Take out Sandman

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And even harm Luke Cage

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Technically this is a strength feat but whatevs.

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Mysterio

A master illusionist and a pain to deal with no matter who you are, Quentin Beck is one of Spider-Man's most dangerous foes because of his sharp wit and incredible special effects. He will be my team's distraction and support.

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Darkhawk

Christopher Powell is a super hero who basically has the powers of street level Iron Man, his amulet is what gives him power and with he can do a variety of useful things. He will act as my team's ranged support.

Strategy

The strategy is pretty simple, thanks to the large battlefield and distance my team will have enough time to find an empty space for the battle (ideally an indoor parking lot or warehouse). Once they find a place they are comfortable with they take briefly discuss strategy and take their positions. Myserio will ready his illusions and Darkhawk will turn invisible.

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Knowing your team you would be able to find out where my team is easily but in case they take to long we will give you a hint to lure you in. When your team goes in they will be surrounded by illusions much like this

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Except with Shocker illusions as well. With the illusions your team wouldn't know who to hit (unless you have beer senses than Spidey that is or AoE, which I doubt). Darkhawk will then fly around and blast you while invisible, his blasts would probably be enough to deal with Kazar and Zabu as his blast were powerful enough to blow up cars with ease

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This will most likely panic your team and cause them to attack all the clones, with that chance Shocker will take Kraven by surprise (him being the biggest threat and the only one Shocker would know about) with a double vibroblast, this should knock Kraven on his butt but Shocker won't stop blasting Kraven till he is defeated (as shown in my Shocker potion Shocker is a real powerhouse who came close to taking Spidey out more than once). While this happens Darkhawk and Mysterio will take on Mockingbird as she should be the only other person left standing, using his invisibility and ranged attacks Darkhawk alone should be able to beat her but with Myserio's help it will be easy as Mysertio uses tranq darts that can take out an elephant herd (and Mockingbid doesn't seem to be armored).

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Conclusions

Even if things don't go perfectly my team will be very hard for yours to deal with as my team uses powerful ranged attacks and yours focuses on CQC, on top of that to my knowledge only Kraven would be tough enough to handle more than 1 or 2 blasts from the Shocker or Darkhawk. Buyt what really hammers home my team's win is the fact that you can't just close the distantce and overwhelm my team in CQC as my team has the master of illusions and a n invisible ranged flyer on their side.

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#6 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Edited by boschePG (6325 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Its going to take me a couple of days to get back to you. Getting ready to ship to Houston but Im saving scans as we speak

Your Shocker scans were quite impressive. Did you cut and crop them yourself?

Also, did you get Darkhawk scans from me??? They look familiar, lol

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#8 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg: Okay.

Some of them were from me but others I found editted online so I used.

Nah, didn't know you used Darkhawk.

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#9 Edited by boschePG (6325 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Hmm...my turn

Mockingbird, the bio pretty much says it all

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Remember she is a trained SHIELD agent. Espionage is what she does.

She was enhanced to Captain America levels

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Making her able to do stuff like...well what Super Soldier Serum Cap would do

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Her gear. Most people just think of her with her staves, which she can fight with due to her SHIELD training but she also has wings given to her by Spider Man and has this nice image inducer, which she has used plenty of times in Mockingbird and Hawkeye and Mockingbird series

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KaZar and Zabu

Zabu is a sabertooth tiger that is protective of KaZar, and able to track by scent

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Now before I get to KaZar, let it be known that they live in the Savage Land - a place where Jurassic Park is a day of life and if they weren't good they would be dead, as stated by Skaar, son of Hulk.

Just to point it out, if you want a good comic server to increase your scans than I suggest the link below on the below scan ;)

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Due to all that constant living training, KaZar has some skill, that actually would put him on peak human level that could go against Spider Man

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vs DareDevil, who stated KaZar is stronger and hitting him actually threw him off. This was from two different early Dare Devil comics so they did not retcon the Hand yet, but he still had boxing knowledge - so take it how you want

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vs Kraven himself, who they have fought many of times and Kraven gives Spider Man a run for his money and Kraven has admitted they are on equal terms even tanking Kraven's tranq darts that could take out an elephant. KaZar has never lost to Kraven and as stated a physical equal. Kraven was worth 4 points in this tourney. KaZar soloed the early X-Men

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vs Rhino - just to continue establish he is on peak human level since he is very little used in battles

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can one shot T-rexs throwing spears through skulls

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that's KaZar. I didn't think it was necessary but as you can see he has similarities to Tarzan. He can also climb city buildings with his hands and fling across the city with various environmental aides

Kraven the Hunter.

My powerhouse at 4 points and the highest scored person in the battle

As it is known, the dude is a Spider Man villain that alone makes him at peak human level. Here even Kaine admits Kraven's speed advantage

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Here is a very simple way how Kraven moved from a laying bed position to choking a female in a blink. I used this because I don't believe your team actually has enhanced reflexes, thus I used a human level comparison on how Kraven would look

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He has an assortment of gear like explosive blow darts, netting, tranq gas, laser nipples

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I actually think that Kraven uses psychological warfare better than anyone not named the Joker

Remember when he drugged Kaine and didn't even know it, and thus making Kaine see hallucinations

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Strategy:

As you stated, I have trackers on my team, so yes I would find you

Where I think where your version of the battle differs is that my team probably wouldn't just rush in. Mockingbird is trained in intelligence gathering and espionage. Kraven will study an opponent until he knows how to get an advantage. KaZar and Mockingbird used to date, thus he would listen to Mockingbird

Kraven has past experience with Mysterio and Shocker. If we cant use that experience, I would tranq Shocker while hiding as my team surrounds your HQ. Using Mockingbird's image enducer, Kraven would infiltrate your HQ as the Shocker.

KaZar has defeated Klaw, a person with a similar power set to Shocker due to KaZar having some vibranium

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Just to state a counter for Darkhawk's invisibility, unless you can mask your scent, your location would be found

Conclusion:

My team picks off your team as my powerhouse infiltrates your team while you not even knowing what his happening

Im done

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#10 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by boschePG (6325 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg: So when is it my turn?

Im doing Kraven now. Ill tag you when Im done and say Im done in the post above

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#12 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by boschePG (6325 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg: Cool. I will read trough it later and will have a counter up in the weekend (hope you didn't make it too hard for me to survive, lol).

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#15 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg:

Counters 1:

There isn't a lot in your introduction portion to counter but I will touch on a few things.

vs Kraven himself, who they have fought many of times and Kraven gives Spider Man a run for his money and Kraven has admitted they are on equal terms even tanking Kraven's tranq darts that could take out an elephant. KaZar has never lost to Kraven and as stated a physical equal. Kraven was worth 4 points in this tourney.

Now this is important, because you latter imply that Kraven will be blitzing my team but if KaZar can compete with or is equals with Kraven (your scans even say he might be superior) then my team should be able to do as well as you haven't shown any speed feats KaZar has that trumps my team's (will expand upon this more later).

KaZar soloed the early X-Men

It is pretty clear that there was context behind that, Iceman could have frozen him but didn't. Also the fight lasted two panels, not that impressive.

As it is known, the dude is a Spider Man villain that alone makes him at peak human level. Here even Kaine admits Kraven's speed advantage

No, he did not. Scarlet says that he is faster and stronger than Pete yet Kraven still had the upper hand (not an exact quote), nothing about a speed advantage. He also says that Kraven is fast but again, he didn't say Kraven was faster. But there was also contxt to those scans, Scarelt was distracted as you can see below (Scarlet Spider #23, for the readers):

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That happened directly before and after your scans and as you can see, Scarlet was not focused on Kraven. he tries to rush past him twice, not fight him. When Scarlet did fight Kraven, he one shot him before he could react.

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I used this because I don't believe your team actually has enhanced reflexes, thus I used a human level comparison on how Kraven would look

You must have missed the part where Darkhawk dodges a shot from Gladiator, shown in my invisibility scan. So he is clearly peak human with enhanced stats. But he has other feat, like getting in the way of bullets to protect Spider Woman.

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In terms of Shocker, he can catch Spidey so Kraven won't be doing any better.

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And that isn't the last time Shocker tags Spidey as he closes the distance. Now for Mysterio's case, his speed doesn't matter as much as he can use illusions and distractions to keep people off him (in fact he can do this for everyone so speed doesn't matter as much) but he certainly isn't as slow as an average human, he is fast enough to react to Spidey's webbing.

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Where I think where your version of the battle differs is that my team probably wouldn't just rush in. Mockingbird is trained in intelligence gathering and espionage. Kraven will study an opponent until he knows how to get an advantage. KaZar and Mockingbird used to date, thus he would listen to Mockingbird

Even if you don't rush in, I don't see how your team would be able to plan right outside my HQ without us detecting you.

Kraven has past experience with Mysterio and Shocker. If we cant use that experience, I would tranq Shocker while hiding as my team surrounds your HQ.

That's nice, now my team will definitely know your location. Your traq darts won't do a thing.

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Using Mockingbird's image enducer, Kraven would infiltrate your HQ as the Shocker.

Unlikely, everyone is inside so they would notice if someone got knocked out.

KaZar has defeated Klaw, a person with a similar power set to Shocker due to KaZar having some vibranium

That is because KaZar closed the distance which we won't be able to do here, especially with all the illusions. But Shocker already dealt with a similar situation against a more physically superior foe than KaZar, Spider-Man.

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As you can see Spidey, like KaZar, tackles Shocker (this is also a speed feat as Shocker was clearly surprised but still reacted to Spidey, like I said Shocker regularly does this), but unlike Klaw who got overpowered, Shocker easily throws Spidey off him.

Just to state a counter for Darkhawk's invisibility, unless you can mask your scent, your location would be found

You can detect where he is, yes. But accurately to land a shot? I doubt it.

My team picks off your team as my powerhouse infiltrates your team while you not even knowing what his happening

I don't think that strategy is going to succeed. Even if it does what will Kraven do once he infiltrates my team?

My Conclusions:

Your strategy only makes it so my team has to fight outside the warehouse we chose, which isn't a big change. My team just steps out of the warehouse and fights you there. If things get real messy Mysterio will use more illusions to make you fight each other while Shocker and Darkhawk distract you from attacking him.

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#16 Posted by boschePG (6325 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: to keep this going so you can get more practice. It took you four days to respond so Im assuming you did research.

There isn't a lot in your introduction portion to counter

I like straight and to the point

Now this is important, because you latter imply that Kraven will be blitzing my team but if KaZar can compete with or is equal to Kraven (your scans say might even be superior) then my team should be able to do as well as you haven't shown any speed feats KaZar has that trumps my team's

Im assuming you mean Kraven and not KaZar as you stated at the end of your reply.

Point 1- Never, ever urge your opponent to place a scan of said feet. It doesn't read well in battles for votes.

Point 2- I NEVER stated speed blitz. My error was I did state reflexes when I should have said senses (hearing, vision) but I would also argue your reflexes too. Your team has no radar sense, no Wolverine smell, nothing like that. I said Kraven with image inducer would easily infiltrate your team since he plays psychological games a lot with his drugs, this time he has SHIELD tech to get even closer. My speed feet is how your team would react to Kraven since you have normal senses (outside of Darkhawk's telescopic vision)

So I ask again, how does your team penetrate my image inducer in which he can incap your team like he did with Kaine.

Or how about even effecting Black Panther???

Kaine and Black Panther were hit and barely knew it. Kaine and Black Panther >>> then any reflex, sense on your team

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KaZar soloed the early X-Men

It is pretty clear there was context behind that. Iceman could have frozen him but didn't. Also, the fight lasted two panels, not that impressive

There was no intent to mislead. I wrote 'early' X-Men. It was around issue 10 - Bobby isn't freezing anyone at that stage. I was merely pointing out that he fought multiple mutants at once.

but there was also context to those scans. Scarlett was distracted. when Scarlet did fight Kraven, he one shot him before he could react

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What was the purpose of showing this scan? Kraven is peak human but did I try to mislead in durability???? I dont think so.

As you stated, there was context, since Kraven had hunted down every friend Kaine had. Which lends credence to why I placed it since Kraven has the image inducer and hits nuero toxins on the regular. You showed Kraven getting his heart stopped but neglect to explain the reason is cuz the Kraven family gutted his friend right in front of him and Kraven is pissed for being resurrected. How does Kaine being bloodlusted at the moment reflect on your team winning this battle?

You must have missed the part where Darkhawk dodges a shot from Gladiator. So he is clearly peak human with enhanced stats. But he has other feat, like getting in the way of bullets to save Spider-WOman

I didn't miss it. Its a decent showing. Gladiator wasn't moving at light speed or anything so I didn't bring it up, but as stated above I meant more about the senses.

In terms of Shocker, he can catch Spidey so Kraven wont be doing any better

Are you trying to say Shocker mind reacts at superhuman levels? If we are going to place actual speed between Shocker and Kraven, we all know Shocker is going to lose this battle cuz we both know Shocker does not react on that level.

As stated above,

  • Can Shocker see through SHIELD image tech
  • Can he heal from the toxins without expecting it

Now for Mysterio's case, his speed doesn't matter as much as he can use illusions and distractions to keep people off him. He is fast enough to react to Spidey's webbing

If we are going to use Spider-Man's webbing as the basis of speed, than we are all at equal speed. That Mysterio webbing scan is also an early showing. Its like when you questioned KaZar's original X-Men fight. It wasn't meant as a speed feet that early in the series. As you stated, Mysterio doesn't rely on speed

Ill ask you this, since my team hunted you down, which is more likely to have an advantage based on Mysterio's and Kraven's prior knowledge??? My team just came across the entire city and hunted you down. I see you first.

Even if you don't rush in, I don't see how your team would be able to plan right outside my HQ without my team detecting you.

I don't see how your team would locate us outside your HQ in the city. As stated, you have no true location abilities. You limit Darkhawk's telescopic vision by placing them inside.

As stated, you have no enhanced hearing, no radar sense. We are hunters. We would talk

That is because KaZar closed the distance

That was part of it. What you didn't post is that as the scan shows, KaZar has vibraniumon him. Its part of the KaZar Plunder mythos. Your shock waves are greatly neutralized. Spider-Man doesn't have vibranium. KaZar does

unlike Klaw who got overpowered, Shocker easily throws Spider-Man off him.

We can say, and probably agree, that Shocker is stronger than Klaw. Shocker isn't on KaZar level though. I think you are showing feats that aren't really speed or strength feats. Just reaction in an ordinary battle. I could place these scans of KaZar and Spider-Man but it isn't really speed. These scans are more for you, so readers please ignore. These aren't speed feats

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You can detect where he (Darkhawk) is, but accurately land a shot, I doubt it.

Darkhawk is one of the biggest wussies in MARVEL. He was a part of the Loners, Avengers Arena, and West Coast Avengers...who happened to have Mockingbird on the team. Mockingbird as shown has enhanced stats, and as you know, once that ruby gets ripped out, bye, bye Darkhawk. It has happened many of times. You would say something about his force fields but then I would reply that he doesn't have it on all the time, which I would be correct

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My team just steps outside the warehouse and fights you there. If things get real messy then Mysterio will use more illusions to make you fight each other

I would argue that Mysterio illusions are more CQC oriented. He isn't Sosuke Aizen. Are you saying that Mysterio is coming out of the building with illusions. I just got to ask, does Mysterio have force fields? I have shown Kraven can tag Kaine and Black Panther from a distance and even have explosive blow darts. If I take out Mysterio, bye, bye, illusions

Ill ask again, how does your team get past my SHIELD image tech - cuz Im going to keep pressing it until you can give an answer. If Darkhawk flies to our location and we look like Shocker and Mysterio, how is that going to favor your team??? It isnt

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#17 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg:

It took you four days to respond so Im assuming you did research.

That and I was lazy. Lol. Anyway, how many posts are we going to do? Will I close now or will get go for another round?

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#18 Posted by boschePG (6325 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: SFW has been doing 28 days for his newer tourneys. Its 3 minimum but can extend. You wanted practice so that is why we set this up. Get practice while being smacked up, lol

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#19 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg: Okay then, I will try to get a post up later today.

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#20 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg:

Counters 2:

Im assuming you mean Kraven and not KaZar as you stated at the end of your reply.

Actually I was trying to say that if KaZar and Kraven are equals then if my team can keep up with KaZar, we can keep up with Kraven. Which is why I was asking for KaZar's feats.

Point 1- Never, ever urge your opponent to place a scan of said feet. It doesn't read well in battles for votes.

Hmm, okay.

Point 2- I NEVER stated speed blitz.

You may not have said it directly but it was implied by the you saying

"Here is a very simple way how Kraven moved from a laying bed position to choking a female in a blink. I used this because I don't believe your team actually has enhanced reflexes, thus I used a human level comparison on how Kraven would look"

My error was I did state reflexes when I should have said senses (hearing, vision) but I would also argue your reflexes too. Your team has no radar sense, no Wolverine smell, nothing like that. I said Kraven with image inducer would easily infiltrate your team since he plays psychological games a lot with his drugs, this time he has SHIELD tech to get even closer. My speed feet is how your team would react to Kraven since you have normal senses (outside of Darkhawk's telescopic vision)

So how would we detect Kraven infiltrating out team in time? Well, first of all I doubt you can even do that (not because you lack the ability but because Shocker can't be penetrated by bullets so darts won't touch him) and secondly, as stated before, my team is all in one place, if you take one of us out, it will be pretty obvious, even if you use stealth.

Kaine and Black Panther were hit and barely knew it. Kaine and Black Panther >>> then any reflex, sense on your team

I mean, my team is bulletproof from head to toe, so your drugs will just bounce off us. Except for Mysterio who would already have his illusions ready meaning it would be hard to pinpoint him.

There was no intent to mislead. I wrote 'early' X-Men. It was around issue 10 - Bobby isn't freezing anyone at that stage. I was merely pointing out that he fought multiple mutants at once.

I know, I didn't say you mislead anyone. I was just saying that it is less impressive as it sounds (also I didn't know Bobby couldn't freeze people before).

What was the purpose of showing this scan? Kraven is peak human but did I try to mislead in durability???? I dont think so.

I didn't mention durability, the hit was clearly a targeted one meant to stop the heart so it isn't even a low durability showing. I was merely showing that Scarlet is faster than Kraven when he wants to be.

How does Kaine being bloodlusted at the moment reflect on your team winning this battle?

Not sure what you are asking but Scarlet doesn't get faster when he is bloodlusted.

Are you trying to say Shocker mind reacts at superhuman levels? If we are going to place actual speed between Shocker and Kraven, we all know Shocker is going to lose this battle cuz we both know Shocker does not react on that level.

Kraven is faster yes, but Shocker is close to him in reaction speed. And yes, Shocker is quite superhuman in reaction speed, almost all of Spidey's villains are because other wise Spidey would deal with them easily.

Can Shocker see through SHIELD image tech

You said you were knocking Shocker out before using that so it doesn't really matter.

Can he heal from the toxins without expecting it

Can the toxins even hurt him in the first place? Remember darts aren't touching him.

If we are going to use Spider-Man's webbing as the basis of speed, than we are all at equal speed. That Mysterio webbing scan is also an early showing. Its like when you questioned KaZar's original X-Men fight. It wasn't meant as a speed feet that early in the series. As you stated, Mysterio doesn't rely on speed

I didn't say we were equal in speed. I was pointy out that Mysterio is much faster than a regular person so comparing him to the girl that couldn't perceive Kraven won't work.

Ill ask you this, since my team hunted you down, which is more likely to have an advantage based on Mysterio's and Kraven's prior knowledge??? My team just came across the entire city and hunted you down. I see you first.

Not sure how this relates to what you are currently countering, but you would see us first, but as stated in your strategy you would also do some planning outside (getting KaZar and Kraven to agree to Mockingbird's plan and Kraven using his info on Shocker and Mysterio), and while you do that we would detect you. Even if we don't we definitely will when you try to dart us.

As stated, you have no enhanced hearing, no radar sense. We are hunters. We would talk

And that is how we detect you. The city is empty and you are talking right outside of us, my team would be in high alert so the slightest noise would alarm them or at least alarm Darkhawk enough to look outside while invisible.

That was part of it. What you didn't post is that as the scan shows, KaZar has vibraniumon him. Its part of the KaZar Plunder mythos. Your shock waves are greatly neutralized. Spider-Man doesn't have vibranium. KaZar does

Where does he keep the Vibranium? Also, I am pretty sure Darkhawk could still take him out with his Darkforce blasts, which took out Iron Clad, a guy almost as strong as the Thing.

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We can say, and probably agree, that Shocker is stronger than Klaw. Shocker isn't on KaZar level though.

And KaZar isn't on Spidey's level. Shocker can do the same thing to KaZar if he charges in.

I think you are showing feats that aren't really speed or strength feats. Just reaction in an ordinary battle. I could place these scans of KaZar and Spider-Man but it isn't really speed. These scans are more for you, so readers please ignore. These aren't speed feats

Those scans were just of KaZar grabbing unto things and not really reacting to Spidey.

You would say something about his force fields but then I would reply that he doesn't have it on all the time, which I would be correct

That doesn't really prove you can accurately land a shot. And Darkhawk can activate his force fields easily. Here is him blocking a rocket with it.

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He can also make it a dome if needed.

I would argue that Mysterio illusions are more CQC oriented. He isn't Sosuke Aizen. Are you saying that Mysterio is coming out of the building with illusions.

Yeah. he basically always walks around with smoke and gas surrounding him which he uses for illusions. If you are talking about the more complex stuff like clones, then no, but he can create them later.

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I just got to ask,does Mysterio have force fields? I have shown Kraven can tag Kaine and Black Panther from a distance and even have explosive blow darts. If I take out Mysterio, bye, bye, illusions

Nope but he has illusions which make him hard to hit, and like I said he would already have prepared his illusions before you get there so he will already be smoke when you dart him. Smoke that makes him hard to hit (and as stated he almost always has that smoke surrounding him).

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He will only use the clone thing to surround your team.

Ill ask again, how does your team get past my SHIELD image tech - cuz Im going to keep pressing it until you can give an answer. If Darkhawk flies to our location and we look like Shocker and Mysterio, how is that going to favor your team??? It isnt

You are skipping the first part of the battle where you supposedly dart my team. But to answer your question, my team would know if one of us falls so if we see Shocker get KO'd then another Shocker walks in, we would all know what's up and attack the fake Shocker.

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#21 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg: I'll give my post a read through and might edit it later. I will tell you when I am done.

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#22 Posted by boschePG (6325 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Ill be waiting for the tag then. I can se already the one posted is going to be a good rebuttle. Let me know when

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#23 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg: Okay. Do you mean you have a good rebuttal already?

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#24 Posted by boschePG (6325 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg: Okay. Do you mean you have a good rebuttal already?

No. Im saying even without any edits, the direction you are going is good. Im going to try and dismantle it though

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#25 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg: Oh, thanks. You will but I will repair it in my last post. Lol.

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#26 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by boschePG (6325 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: my towns power has been out all day due to the weather down South. Ill get to you when it come sup

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#28 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg: Okay. Hope the weather clears up soon.

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#29 Posted by boschePG (6325 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm:

sorry this took so long. Hurricane processing has been quite tedious

So how would we detect Kraven infiltrating out team in time? Well, first of all I doubt you can even do that (because you lack the ability because Shocker can't be penetrated by bullets so darts won't touch him) and secondly, as stated before, my team is all in one place, if you take one of us out, it will be pretty obvious, even if you use stealth

That is the importance of stealth my friend. My team are the hunters and you are the hunted that locked yourself into a building??? In character, why is my team just breaching your building? They take their time. Im not questioning your strategy, and Ill break down each of your defensive positions

If you stay inside, it provides better defensive position for sure, but...

  • how long are you guys holding firm in that building...together with everything powered up? As stated, Kraven knows Shocker and Mysterio.
  • hiding in the building severly limits Darkhawk's flight abilities and quite possibly Shocker's vibration ability
  • you still haven't stated how you can tell us apart with SHIELD image tech
  • about the force field thing, incap is usually used first by Kraven. As you stated, Shocker may have force fields, but Im pretty sure he breathes through that field and as you know, Kraven has that nifty vest that does shoot out gas attacks that are tranqs. Even if one goes down at first, I have capable people in Mockingbird and KaZar and Zabu to go with Kraven once Shocker goes down.
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Just to state it again (rule 2, if you think you have an advantage, keep pressing it if you don't feel its been ignored or not answered completely)

Ive already stated, Shocker's ability are going to be dulled due to KaZar's vibranium and Kraven's tranq gas going through force field...unless he has some sort of oxygen supply in his outfit???

If you go outside, its more likely your team gets split, either by choice or by design. My team knows your team. My team can just stake out your team and my team with semi-prep does amazing things like below. Its not a stat thing. Its a semi-prep and ability thing

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You said you were knocking Shocker out before using the SHIELD image tech so it doesn't really matter.

Are you admitting that Shocker is getting knocked out?

Can the toxins even hurt him in the first place? remember darts aren't touching him.

See tranq gas above due to the vest. Im just stating Kraven is the incap king as he did with Hulk above

I didn't say we were equal in speed. I was pointing out that Mysterio is much faster than a regular person so comparing him to the girl to perceive Kraven won't work

I think placing scans of Mysterio vs Spider-Man as a baseline of stats is somewhat misleading since Spider-Man has stated multiple times that Mysterio gas not only effects his Spidersense and his webbing. I do not have spider sense or webbing

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Not sure how this relates to what you are currently countering, but you would see us first, but stated in your strategy you would also do some planning outside and while you do that we would detect you.

And when you talk that is how we detect you. The city is empty and you are talking right outside of us, my team would be in high alert so the slightest noise would alarm them or at least alarm Darkhawk enough to look outside while invisible.

  1. Your team does not have super hearing as I have stated. You saying the human ear is going to hear us across in another building???
  2. I may be wrong, but I don't believe Darkhawk can go invisible and force field up at the same time. We can infer that he can, but it actually hasn't been shown to my knowledge

Where does he keep the Vibranium? Also, Im pretty sure Darkhawk could still take him out with his Darkforce blasts,

  • In the scan he has a belt of it. He usually carries a locket of it, as is part of the mythos of the Plunder family mythos. I could easily place more scans of vibranium if you are requesting it?
  • Im pretty sure he could. Im was stating more of how it related to Shocker of dampening his power output, which we believe would be lowered anyways since you are inside. Im never said KaZar could tank everything. I was just putting the Klaw and Shocker comparision together on power and relating it to vibranium
  • If we assuming that Shocker is getting taken out first, I could easily state that Darkhawk would have a hard time vs numbers inside (Mockingbird, KaZar, and Zabu) . Ive already shown Mockingbird able to punch through Hydra robots. We both know that nifty chest gem that powers Darkhawk can be gutted out too

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#30 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg: Cool. I should have a closer up by tommorow (it could be up by today if I had the chance).

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#31 Posted by boschePG (6325 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg: True. But I like getting things done quicker, I mess up more when I forget parts of the debate. Lol.

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#33 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg:

Closing Counters:

sorry this took so long. Hurricane processing has been quite tedious

It's no problem. I hope you are doing fine over there.

how long are you guys holding firm in that building...together with everything powered up? As stated, Kraven knows Shocker and Mysterio.

As long as it takes or as long as it takes a suspiciously long time, then we will look.

hiding in the building severly limits Darkhawk's flight abilities and quite possibly Shocker's vibration ability

Not exactly, as I said before "my team will have enough time to find an empty space for the battle (ideally an indoor parking lot or warehouse)." Which would not hinder Shocker at all and while Darkhawk will not be able to go too high he will still have more than enough space to acrobatically fly around. Not like it matters too much for him though, because he is invisible and already really hard to hit.

you still haven't stated how you can tell us apart with SHIELD image tech

I said a lot of times that it won't happen. My team would be within sight of one another and thus know if a member gets taken out so if you walk in disguised as Mysterio or Shocker my team would notice. It is also unlikely that Kraven will be able to act like Mysterio and Shocker because his character is vastly different (even if he does know them, it doesn't mean he is a good actor) so we would eventually find you out (especially considering that both Shocker and Mysterio know each other and are 2 of Spidey's smartest villains).

about the force field thing, incap is usually used first by Kraven. As you stated, Shocker may have force fields, but Im pretty sure he breathes through that field and as you know, Kraven has that nifty vest that does shoot out gas attacks that are tranqs. Even if one goes down at first, I have capable people in Mockingbird and KaZar and Zabu to go with Kraven once Shocker goes down.

Shocker can just hold his breath like KaZar did in your scan, KaZar is a jungle man, Shocker is one of the world's best engineer's, if KaZar can counter the smoke, so can he. It is also very unlikely that you will get close enough to Shocker to even hit him with the gas, as shown in your scan the gas only travels like 3 feet and Shocker can keep Kraven at a distance with ease. Even Spidey has a hard time dodging Shocker's blasts.

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There is also the illusions which make him hard to target and the fact that he controls the battlefield. So he can destroy the floor near him to keep Kraven away if he becomes too troublesome.

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And before you say Kraven gets close via SHIELD imaginary, remember Shocker is your first target so unless you change your strategy you aren't getting close to him (and even if you do, you won't be able to take Mysterio out to disguise as him nor will the disguise actually trick Shocker for reasons stated above).

Ive already stated, Shocker's ability are going to be dulled due to KaZar's vibranium

How does KaZar's vibranium dull Shocker? Sure it would allow him to tank a shot or two, but I doubt it will affect Shocker's ability to vibrate at all unless I am missing something. I already countered the gas.

If you go outside, its more likely your team gets split, either by choice or by design. My team knows your team. My team can just stake out your team and my team with semi-prep does amazing things like below. Its not a stat thing. Its a semi-prep and ability thing

Those scans weren't of semi prep so they won't be happening. Kraven also doesn't carry that gear as standard.

Are you admitting that Shocker is getting knocked out?

No.

See tranq gas above due to the vest. Im just stating Kraven is the incap king as he did with Hulk above

1. The gas is too short range and Kraven can't close the gap.

2. Shocker can hold his breath.

3. Kraven had prep when he battled Hulk and brought non-standard gear.

I think placing scans of Mysterio vs Spider-Man as a baseline of stats is somewhat misleading since Spider-Man has stated multiple times that Mysterio gas not only effects his Spidersense and his webbing. I do not have spider sense or webbing

Spider sense doesn't affect the speed of which web lines travel nor does being able to dissolve webs slow down the speed at which they travel before being caught.

Your team does not have super hearing as I have stated. You saying the human ear is going to hear us across in another building???

When did you mention going to another building?

I may be wrong, but I don't believe Darkhawk can go invisible and force field up at the same time. We can infer that he can, but it actually hasn't been shown to my knowledge

That doesn't mean he can't do it, and even if that is true then he just drops his camo and projects a force field at the same time. Even if for some reason you tag him, the possibility of you hitting the gem while he is invisible is extremely slim and the rest of him is really durable, so durable that even the Iron Avenger comments on how durable he is.

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In the scan he has a belt of it. He usually carries a locket of it, as is part of the mythos of the Plunder family mythos. I could easily place more scans of vibranium if you are requesting it?

So only his belt is protected? Shocker could just aim for the head or body in that case.

Im pretty sure he could. Im was stating more of how it related to Shocker of dampening his power output, which we believe would be lowered anyways since you are inside. Im never said KaZar could tank everything. I was just putting the Klaw and Shocker comparision together on power and relating it to vibranium

Itg can only dampen Shocker's power if Shocker directly shoots him IIRC and no where in your scan did Klaw mention vibranium dampening his powers. In fact KaZar hints that only his belt buckle is protected saying

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And while I don't have a scan of the previous page, I am guessing Klaw tagged him in his belt buckle (and got knocked down for 6 seconds). Also I am not sure why being inside limits Shocker, he couldn't care less about property damage.

If we assuming that Shocker is getting taken out first

Assuming he goes down at all.

I could easily state that Darkhawk would have a hard time vs numbers inside (Mockingbird, KaZar, and Zabu) . Ive already shown Mockingbird able to punch through Hydra robots. We both know that nifty chest gem that powers Darkhawk can be gutted out too

Darkhawk can easily take KaZar and Zabu out, then beat Mockingbird (who seems like a shieldless version of Cap, meaning Darkwak's car busting attacks should be able to KO her in a prolonged blast). Mockingbird isn't touching Darkhawk, he is invisible, can fly, is fighting at a range and is really agile. I'm betting Darkwak alone can take out 3 members on your team if it came down to it. Remember he can fire multiple blasts at once, so him overwhelming your team and taking out KaZar and Zabu at the same time is possible.

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I'm not saying Darkhawk solos but even if it was a 1 on 3 battle he would win and since this is a 3 on 4, my team has an even better chance to win.

Conclusion:

You can't tranq any of my team members (Mysterio is too hard to hit and can breath poison gas, as he has his own, Darkhawk doesn't need oxygen and is bullet proof, Shocker is bullet proof and can keep Kraven away to prevent him from gassing him or simply hold his breath).

You still haven't explained how you infiltrate my team when we all can see if someone goes down.

My team is more versatile and possess way more fire power, while also having more counters to your team than your team has counters to them.

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#34 Posted by boschePG (6325 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: do you need to extend for practice or do you want to go to votes?

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#35 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg: I'm good, that was my last post. I'm not sure what else to say if I get another post.

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#36 Posted by boschePG (6325 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg: I think I did. Thanks. Aren't you going to get a last post in?

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#38 Posted by boschePG (6325 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: I tend to finish a lot of my posts with points of attention so to avoid repetitive back and forth. Unless I feel that my opponent left something that needed to be addressed, in which I will address it, all my post are pretty much my closing post.

I found it that many don't close correctly since I see some dropped information on the closing that wouldn't get addressed since it was the final word post. I try to avoid that last minute attack

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#39 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: You might have missed the tag, but we are ready for votes.

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#41 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg: @major_hellstorm: Done. Hit up the sign up thread and tag everyone in there in the matches made post to get some voters.

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#42 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#43 Posted by boschePG (6325 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by DeathHero61 (18876 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Posted by nerdchore (8276 posts) - - Show Bio

Ill read tonight and vote

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#50 Posted by deactivated-5b3daad020468 (2228 posts) - - Show Bio

I give my vote to @major_hellstorm. He showed how his two main hitters (Darkhawk ans Shocker) are able to triumph over boschepg's main hitters (Kraven and KaZar). Not only that major_hellstorm has proven to have better support in terms of Mysterio's illusions. While boschepg never dove into deep Mockingbird's capabilities.