Street PYP 4.0 R2: Major Hellstorm vs Arkbound (Need Votes)

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#1 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm:

  • Kraven 4
  • Roy Mustang 3
  • Scorpion 1
  • Kingpin 1
  • Bolin 1

@arkbound:

  • Gorgon (7)
  • Vampirella (3)

Rules

  • All Characters with Expanded Universe are allowed there EU feats. Manga/Anime gets both feats. Game characters get Manga/Anime feats. Comics with Reboots get Pre Reboot and Post Reboot feats.
  • All characters are in character, but no rivalries. All will work together.
  • No BFR, but can teleport others around the battlefield.
  • Cannot Mental KO or Mentally Control of a enemy team. Applies to soul abilities as well. Anything else goes.
  • Time Manipulation is allowed only on the character who has it only. Can not Increase speed past Hypersonic.
  • Transmutation is allowed, but not directly on characters bodies.
  • Intangibility, Teleporting, and Transmutation forms of dismemberment are not allowed on enemy teams bodies, but everything else is fine.
  • Gear must remain Street Level.
  • Summons/Duplicates limited to Navy Seal Team quality. You cannot summon anything or duplicate enough to overwhelm a 6 man Navy Seal Team with ease.
  • Unsure, then ask. If things get out of hand, rulings will be made.

Start 200 feet from the middle.

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#2 Posted by Vertigo- (17930 posts) - - Show Bio

tag

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#3 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know who Vampirella is and I won't have much time to do a proper opener (cause I run a 5 man team) so I will re-use my last one instead (if I get to R3 I will get a better opener).

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#4 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkbound:

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  1. Colonel Roy Mustang. He is a flame alchemist and the main offense of my team. He can create use exposions with a snap of his fingers and is accurate enough to use those explosions to hit small body parts such as the eye.
  2. The Kingpin. An enemy of both Spider-Man and Daredevil, he is a superhuman who is strong enough to go toe to toe with the Spidey with ease and durable enough to no sell Daredevil's blows . Unlike you may think Kingpin is quick on his feet being able to aim dodge. His role is to support Kraven.
  3. Scorpion (MK). He is an undead ninja, he is a peak human that uses deadly hellfire and teleportation to defeat his enemies, he also uses twin dwprds and a type of rope dart as weapons. He will be my team's quick offense.
  4. Kraven the Hunter. He is a Captain America level superhuman who uses poisons, firearms, clubs, axes and spears to accomplish his goals. He is very skilled in combat and is my team's hax offense as well as it's hunter.
  5. Bolin. He is the brother of Mako, a powerful earthbender and one of the best pro benders in the world. He can throw rocks with extreme accuracy and create lakes of lava, while he is dun loving at heart he can get serious if needed. He is the main defense and ground offense of my team.

Feats will be at the counters/strategy. No strategy yet as I lack knowledge on Vampirella.

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#5 Edited by Arkbound (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: @sirfizzwhizz:

just to be clear your team in OP doesnt equal ten points and is different from what is posted above

OP Team

  • Col. Mustang (3)
  • Kraven (4)
  • Winter Soldier (2)
  • Kingpin (1)
  • MK Subzero (1)
  • MK Scorpion (1)

First Post Team

  • Coloney Roy Mustang
  • The Kingpin
  • Scorpion (MK)
  • Kraven The Hunter
  • Bolin

So please clarifiy

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#6 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: your team is wrong somehow. You have to drop 2 points in either winter soldier or the two MK charcaters.

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#7 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: That isn'y my real team, my real team is Bolin 1, Scorpion 1, Kingpin 1, Kraven 4 and Mustang 3 which is 10.

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#8 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkbound: Meant to tag you as well, if you check the main thread the team in my post is the team that I bought and it is worth 10 points.

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#9 Posted by Arkbound (1666 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkbound: Cool. Also, did I face you last tourney as well? I think you forfieted then.

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#11 Posted by MyLittleFascist (32840 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: lol why are the MK characters cheaper than winter soldier?

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#12 Posted by Arkbound (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: were you using 6 gun gorilla? if so then maybe, I was pretty busy last time around

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#13 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: WS turned my team into ash last time and is very versitile.

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#14 Posted by Arkbound (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm:

Feats will be at the counters/strategy. No strategy yet as I lack knowledge on Vampirella.

I get holding back on a strategy, but you could have at least posted feats. The only reason I can think that you didn't is because you didn't want them countered/ addressed in my first post. The only thing your first post did was confirm who was on your team.

Its honestly not that big a deal but I am hoping for a much better rebuttal phase.

Moving on...

Creatures of the Night

Gorgon

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I will use a modified version of another Gorgon post I did

[Bio]

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Bio Highlights:

  • Genius level intellect
  • Found his primary power was petrification (however via Transmutation rule not much is going to be said about this)
  • Experienced Leader who created a mutant cult
  • Killed, resurrected, then reprogrammed Wolverine into a Hydra agent
  • Almost killed Nick Fury (but who didn't right?)

Basically he has no qualms about killing and (both with and without prep/knowledge advantage) can typically out think his opponents. His use of telepathy to anticipate and distract his opponents gives him a distinct advantage

[Stats]

Speed

He can weave between gunshots, deflect bullets with ease, get the jump on bullet timers like Elektra and Wolverine, and react to speedsters like Yo-Yo

For example here Gorgon is teleported into a hospital that is currently under SHIELD's protection. He proceeds to deflect every bullet back at his attackers and kills them so fast he leaves an after image

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And here Gorgon takes on a dozen or so ninja's at the same time, moving so fast that he creates after images (he also can cut clean through multiple limbs in one stroke)

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And in his first appearance he is known for blitzing and killing Wolverine...

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who comments that no one can be that fast (to get past Logan's senses faster than he can react and then kill Logan faster than he can heal).

And finally he intercepts Yo-Yo (a mid tier speedster) and she says the exact same thing as Logan (before Gorgon cuts off her arms)

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Honestly tagging then mutilating Yo Yo is a feat that imo puts him comfortably above Kraven (and anyone else on your team)

Strength

His strength is immense. He can casually crack concrete, cut throw several limbs or stone with a single stroke, and go toe to toe with meta human heavy weights like Wolverine, Shangi Chi and Iron Fist.

Showings of strength include him tossing Shangi Chi the height of a building, kicking someone into a pillar and cracking it, and stabbing throw two people and a tomb stone (one of those people being adamantium laced Wolverine) ect

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And he has stabbed Wolverine in the neck that it took Wolverine and two random shield agents to pull it out

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Durability & Healing Factor

Gorgon can take hits from Skarr, Shang Chi, Wolverine, Quake & RPG's and then continue fighting.

In the fight I provided above (the Yo-Yo feat) it is also to be noted that Gorgon took Quake' attack full on in the chest being knocked several meters back and yet he was still fine to fight. You can see the blow in the damaged earth.

One of his better durability (and healing factor) feats is when he was attacked with an RPG then Wolverine and Elektra. They stabbed and ripped his body apart (which already suffered from the explosion). Even after they get the jump on him he proceeds to tear them to pieces.

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Gorgon is fast, strong, can soak up damage, and even heal if he is injured

[Powers & Abilities]

Dont be fooled into thinking Gorgon isnt a threat because he isnt allowed to petrify your team (via Transmutation rule). His healing factor is considerable and will spare him from deadly injuries.

Gorgon's telepathy allows him to read the movements and plans of his enemies. But he also uses it to distract his opponents by bring up painful memories that impede them. His mind also scans his surroundings to alert him to any danger. Lastly he can create a mind link between him and other people.

Mind Reading (reads Elektra's mind and brings up deep and personal memories to distract her during battle)

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Gorgon sifts through peoples minds and uses their own thoughts as weapons to off balance and distract them. When he was talking to Elektra he was going through her inner demons, bring old painful memories to the surface all to off balance her. He is doing the same thing here with Wolverine (note this is happening in Wolverine's thoughts, Gorgon doesnt need to talk and taunt for this strategy)

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Mind Link (mind links with Norman Osborn, mind scans, and then comments about Osborn's inner demons)

And the mind scan is almost instantaneous as iv shown but will expand on

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  • Feat 1 Scans the entirety of Elektra's mind to find where Fury is being held
  • Feat 2 Immediately upon linking with Osborn he notes the "inner demons" present within the crazed villain
  • Feat 3 Has an entire convo at the speed of thought

That should be enough. With impressive speed capable of blitzing foes like Wolverine, versatile telepathy keeping him one step ahead of any opponent he faces, and a healing factor that can repair the harshest punishment all this boils down to Gorgon being here for the long haul. Add in genius level intellect and a killing efficiency not found on your team and I think you will be hard pressed to sufficiently counter Tomi.

Vampirella

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[Bio]

Comicvine Page

Origin Video

Take away's

  • She has all of the powers of Vamp's without their cliche weaknesses (sunlight, garlic, silver ect). The only weaknesses she shares is a stake through the heart
  • She is a vampire who hunts and kills vampires and other unsavory things

[Stats]

Strength

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1-3 Breaks the ground with a stomp then shatters the ground and foundation bringing down the building

4 Casually picks up a large stone tomb

Speed

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1-2 Runs and shoots at super speeds

3-4 Blitzes a man from yards away before him or the bullet percieving girl can notice

Durability

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1-2 Has no problem getting knocked with stone crushing force through pillars and walls (and continues fighting in both)

3 Shoot with a crossbow in the chest and pulls it out

And finally a xenomorph bursts through her chests and she survives.

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[Powers & Abilities]

First Vampirella is capable of more than what I am showing but as of now this is what I will share.

Transformation

She can transform into a bat and turn invisible.

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Flight

But she can also just grow giant bat wings for flight. She is a skilled acrobat in the air (out maneuvering a military helicopter) and has supersonic flight (catches up to a jet)

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Super Senses

Like Gorgon, Vampirella has great senses. She can hear incoming attackers and asses a persons mental state based on their smell (and other bodily functions)

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Hax'd invisible airborne blood sucking monster from your nightmares. She is strong, quick, and durable (much more than iv shown) with a tendency to rip her opponents apart early on in the fight.

Primary Considerations

[In character Killers]

  • Both Gorgon and Vampirella are essentially serial killers (yes for good or bad reasons but their individual kill counts are high af)
  • In-character my team will go for the jugular with no hesitation

[Telepathy & Senses]

Start 200 feet from the middle.

  • assuming @sirfizzwhizz meant both teams start 200 ft from the middle at opposite ends then we are essentially 400 feet from each other (or roughly two football fields)
  • My teams Telepathy and Super Senses will be able to pick up the gist of what you are doing (though you have yet to provide a strategy)
  • Basically I will read more, and thus know more, of your team than vice versa. You will have almost no knowledge of who you are fighting while I will.

[Stealth]

  • My team has better means of stealth (outside of maybe Kraven)
  • Vampirella has invisibility and Gorgon is basically a super ninja who stealth'd Wolverine
  • Telepathy (and mind link) will also keep me informed of where you team is

[Telepathic Distraction]

  • As I mentioned in my gorgon post my team will distract your team by bring up memories while fighting (attacking psychological scars or remove their fighting composure with deeply emotional memories)

Strategy

First my team will mind link and Vampirella will turn invisible and fly. Then, as my team advances (Vampi from the skies and Gorgon stealthily from the ground) Vampi will rely where your team is back to Gorgon via mind link from her birds eye view. Gorgon (knowing how many and approximately where) will start to read the minds and memories of your team, particularly bringing up and tormenting them with tragic events in the past.

Col. Hughes death, Kraven's suicide ect

At this point its all conjecture because I dont know your strategy. But my team has options.

All Gorgon needs is a moments hesitation and he will blitz and kill like he did with Wolverine. He can attack stragglers or parties that split up (knowing where they are via Vampi and TP)

While that is happening Vampirella could possible, while invisible, fly over to other members of your team and drink them dry or rip them apart.

They could work together or separately. It depends on your strategy and how they will react and read the situation.

Seeing as you said you didn't know much at Vampi I will include specific feats that prove she is capable of what I claimed in my strategy.

Her ability to fly and fight at super sonic speeds coupled with invisibility means she will easily be able to get close to, and mutilate, her opponent

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there are several examples of Vampirella ripping apart enhanced opponents. For example, a vampire she had fought previously had been altered to fight her and she did this to both of his arms

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Alright that's it.

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#15 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkbound: Didn't post feats cause it would take too long to overview all of my characters and I didn't know which stats to focus on. The counter post will have as much proof as needed though.

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#16 Edited by Arkbound (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: If thats the case you should have just asked me to go first, my post would have been 90% the same. Again its not that big of a deal though if your bring your A game for the next one

EDIT

Sorry if I am coming of as blunt I just kind feel like we are a post behind (if that makes sense) but it wont matter as we have no post limit. So ignore me and you do you

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#17 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkbound: I know, but I wasn't sure if you would post or not so I it over with (no offense, but in the last 2 Ult. Street tourneys I won 3 times due to forfeit). Anyway I will put a counter post up soon(ish).

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#18 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by Arkbound (1666 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkbound: Yeah, sorry. Anyway, which sword does Gorgon have here?

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#22 Edited by Arkbound (1666 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by D33tacude (70 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#24 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

Counters: Primary Considerations

Both Gorgon and Vampirella are essentially serial killers (yes for good or bad reasons but their individual kill counts are high af)

No one in my team has a problem with killing as well, not even Bolin who could have killed two people in mech suits but showed no guilt.

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In-character my team will go for the jugular with no hesitation

Gorgon likes to play with his prey as well though.

assuming @sirfizzwhizz meant both teams start 200 ft from the middle at opposite ends then we are essentially 400 feet from each other (or roughly two football fields)

My teams Telepathy and Super Senses will be able to pick up the gist of what you are doing (though you have yet to provide a strategy)

You are 400 feet away, what will your senses pick up?

Basically I will read more, and thus know more, of your team than vice versa. You will have almost no knowledge of who you are fighting while I will.

Only an advantage if you use it correctly.

My team has better means of stealth (outside of maybe Kraven)

True, but with my strategy how will you use it?

Vampirella has invisibility and Gorgon is basically a super ninja who stealth'd Wolverine

Invisibility can be heard also IIRC Gorgon used his speed against Logan not stealth.

Telepathy (and mind link) will also keep me informed of where you team is

You have this, but it isn't a huge advantage.

As I mentioned in my gorgon post my team will distract your team by bring up memories while fighting (attacking psychological scars or remove their fighting composure with deeply emotional memories)

Counters below.

Counters: Mind Attacks

Gorgon (knowing how many and approximately where) will start to read the minds and memories of your team, particularly bringing up and tormenting them with tragic events in the past.

Cool. But it will mostly have no affect, Bolin and Kingpin don't have any tragic events that will thro them off, Scorpion is an undead demon so we can't be sure that Gorgon can even mind read him. The event you mentioned for Kraven won't throw him off it will anger him and make him more dangerous in battle, this may sound weird but his suicide was a happy memory for him, he wanted to dis and still does because he has already proven himself superior to Spider-Man, so bringing up his suicide will only drive him to fight harder so he can win the fight and be killed by Spider-Man. As for Roy, you just made him mad and gave him fuel. Roy accepted the death early on and used it as a fuel to take down Bradley, just see what happened when Envy tried to mock Roy about it, only made him mad but still focused.

At this point its all conjecture because I dont know your strategy. But my team has options.

My strategy will be down below.

My Strategy

Now in character my team would either go on the offensive by hunting you or set up a trap/defense (since Kraven and Mustang are the team leaders), but since my team lacks knowledge on where your team is or who they are the latter is more likely. Now since my team has no idea what is coming they will only put basic defenses which mean lava moat which would look something like this

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Bolin can do this using lavabending he didn't make the one above so to show that he can here are his feats.

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As you can see he can easily make a lava barrier, he makes a whole circle around his team then increases the size of it like this.

At 14 seconds you can see it's size
At 14 seconds you can see it's size

Lastly he can make earth shields taller than himself, incedibly fast (and topple trees).

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This takes seconds only as you can see Bolin is an agile bender. Now while Bolin sets up defense the other team members talk strategy. Roy becomes the watch tower, Kingpin the muscle, Scorpion the doorway, Kraven the sniper and Bolin the defense.

Then my team waits there watching, but I imagine that your team gets to mine very quickly so my team wouldn't have to wait all that long.

Also, SFW never specified where we start so my team will go to a place where there won't be any buildings cutting off our moat.

Counters: Strategy

All Gorgon needs is a moments hesitation and he will blitz and kill like he did with Wolverine. He can attack stragglers or parties that split up (knowing where they are via Vampi and TP)

Except he will have no one to blitz since he can't get inside my lava moat, unless Vampirella carries him.

While that is happening Vampirella could possible, while invisible, fly over to other members of your team and drink them dry or rip them apart.

Not happening, if she flies as fast as a helicopter (your jet scan showed that she doesn't fly at those speeds normally) she creates noise as loud as a rushing wind moving at incedible speeds even if invisible, meaning my team can detect her if see gets close enough, however they cannot pinpoint her exact location but it does not matter Roy can shoot her down from a far as long as he knows her general direction as you can see here.

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Remember Roy's power works by changing the oxegen in the air so he can do this even bigger if he uses it against sky bound enemies, not onky that but he can spam this all he has to do is snap his fingers and an explosion accurs, I do not remember there ever being a limit to his abilities in the series, in fact while injured he spams his explosions to kill Lust and it doesn't seem to make him tired at all. The only limit seems to be oxygen, as long as there is he can use his power. But he is attacking out in the open he basically has ulimated ammo.

Now if Vampirella survives that Kraven would be the one to take her using his jungle senses to detect where she is.

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Detects someone from across the street. Also matched young Spidey's Spider Sense as you can see here.

Then kill her with a spear like he did Angel.

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They could work together or separately. It depends on your strategy and how they will react and read the situation.

Okay, I will wait for what you have to say but the lava moat should seperate them, not sure how Gorgon will bypass it and even if he gets inside Scorpion can just teleport him away or double team him with Kraven, taking away his speed (re-Deadpool scan) so Scorpion can crush his skull.

Initial Thoughts

Your primary considerations/advatages are smalll and not significant enough go change the course of the battle.

My team has many ways to counter yours, I just need to know your exact strategy to get the right counter up.

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#26 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkbound: I can't edit my post for some reason, the videos are keeping me from doing it. I will finish my post tommorow, my vids will be links now.

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#27 Posted by Arkbound (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: you are trying to spoiler block videos right? that never works for me so I use links now

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#28 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkbound: Yeah, also just videoes in general stop you from editting.

Okay I am done, post was a little erratic so sorry about that.

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#29 Edited by DeathHero61 (18876 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto said:

@sirfizzwhizz: lol why are the MK characters cheaper than winter soldier?

Dude in his most recent tourney he has Kenshin for only two points(whereas Bane, Batman, and the like are 3 pointers) while Toph Beifong is 6 points as opposed to Aang and Korra who are 4s and Katara who is also a 2.(despite the fact that Katara has feats on par with Toph, same applies to the Avatars.) There's always going to be a steal in his tourneys.

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#30 Edited by Arkbound (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: @major_hellstorm:

Strong post, I'v very much enjoyed making this rebuttal. So here it is.

[Primary Considerations] - Round 2

No one in my team has a problem with killing as well, not even Bolin who could have killed two people in mech suits but showed no guilt.

Just because Bolin isn't remorseful doesn't mean his first instincts during a random encounter is to melt his opponents.

The reason he used lava bending was because he had encountered the mechs before and knew that no earth bending would stop them effectively. That's why pretty much all of Bolin's lava feats are ether against other benders or Kuvira's machines. When another opponent shows up he goes back to earth bending until lava bending is made necessary to use.

This is why I made the distinction between just being willing to kill and being a serial killer. Essentially all of Gorgon's and Vampirella's fights end in death in some form, and killing their opponents is often their default. There is a big difference between the two. Death by lava bending simply isn't his go to.

Gorgon likes to play with his prey as well though.

If you assume he will "play with his food" in this scenario then your knowledge of Gorgon is limited. Assuming you are referring to the Elektra fight where he "offered her a sword to fight him" then you are forgetting two things:

  1. The reason he wanted to beat her was because she had a score to settle with Hydra. Literally saying "why not settle it now?"
  2. Gorgon had in-depth knowledge of his opponent. He already knew he was leagues superior to her and thus decided to break her spirit as well as her body.

Thus it isn't a decision he would make for random enemies he doesn't have any relation too. If you look at other fights I provided (him vs non-hydra affiliated characters) you will see that even in character a serious Gorgon doesn't screw around:

And Wolverine was the only fight where he had prep and knowledge like Elektra (some of the knowledge he attended by observing Wolverine before the fight as Il show later on). And if you were not referring to the Elektra fight please explain.

Simply put there is no reason for Gorgon to hold back. He will go for the kill.

You are 400 feet away, what will your senses pick up?

First off I know where your team is and I plan to move closer. I covered this in my strategy:

...as my team advances (Vampi from the skies and Gorgon stealthily from the ground) Vampi will rely where your team is back to Gorgon via mind link from her birds eye view. Gorgon (knowing how many and approximately where) will start to read the minds and memories of your team, particularly bringing up and tormenting them with tragic events in the past.

So no i'm not 400 ft away at the time when this ability would be used.

But its not like I have to move that far. You realize 400 feet isn't that long for my characters? As I said in my primary consideration section, our distance is only that of about two soccer fields. Given the advantage that I will know exactly where you are, I can get to you rather quickly. I have already posted Gorgon's speed against Wolverine and Yo-Yo from a distance. Per my strategy he will use the buildings and alley's as cover as he closes the distance in moments and use his telepathy. (all before your team has begun to move to a "building-less area")

But what you are really asking for is the range of Gorgon's telepathy/ senses right?

Well as I have already shared he is most certainly able to (passively mind you) use his TP against things several dozen feet away. In fact, despite the psi shields the helicopters were employing, Gorgon was able to sense (through hearing or telepathy) an incoming attack

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So yes once my team advances he wont have an issue with range (again we are only dealing with about two soccer fields in total space)

Only an advantage if you use it correctly.

You realize that of course Gorgon has feats of using mind reading and anticipation to his advantage right? I already shared some of them with you. And Vampi also has mental control feats (most of which she cant use per rules) but prove she will competently understand and interpret the information Gorgon is sending her and vice versa.

Mental Domination

Vampirella can mentally dominate people in to doing her bidding. It isnt perfect but its very effective.

She will have no trouble full utilizing the connection with Gorgon as she herself is familiar with the power.

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Not to mention a mental link aids in teamwork and decision-making immensely. If they can use it correctly or not is a non-issue.

True, but with my strategy how will you use it?

Your strategy is largely out of character and unlikely.

Getting away from that, stealth can be used to gather information as well as blitz. I know the lay of the land, and if you plan searching for a building less area to set up this mote, then as a team who knows where you are, Gorgon can effectively stealth blitz while you are on the move. I talk about it below when Gorgon stealth'ed Wolverine to get info and a perfect moment.

Invisibility can be heard

I have shown you Vampirella flying as fast as a military jet. She may have been pushing herself but as she is both invisible, attacking from above, and casual sonic flight (supersonic if she tries) I am seriously doubting anyone but Kraven sensing her (which you still haven't proved, I'v discussed both of Kraven's "sensing feats" below and exactly what is wrong with them hint: both are not 616 Kraven ) And that doesn't mean he can react to or stop her ether.

also IIRC Gorgon used his speed against Logan not stealth.

Il post more of the fight because Tomi uses both his speed and stealth against Wolverine.

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Gorgon clearly was using the fact that Wolverine didn't know he was there (kinda like your team and this fight) to assess and then strike.

Also take in how far he blitzed from. Gorgon got to a superhuman opponent like Wolverine from several feet away before Logan knew what hit him. Gorgon has enough of an advantage here (information from Vampirella, Mind Reading, Speed ect) to pull off my strategy with no problem.

You have this, but it isn't a huge advantage.

How is mind linking and telepathy not a huge advantage? Especially given your strategy. I know exactly where your team is and what strategies they have employed as well as who set them and how. For example I know Bolin is responsible for this lava mote you are claiming. You shouldn't underestimate this advantage.

[Telepathic Distraction] - Round 2

Counters: Mind Attacks

Gorgon (knowing how many and approximately where) will start to read the minds and memories of your team, particularly bringing up and tormenting them with tragic events in the past.

Cool. But it will mostly have no affect, Bolin and Kingpin don't have any tragic events that will thro them off,

It doesn't have to be "tragic" just emotional/ distracting. Look again at Gorgon vs Elektra

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The things he taunted her about were more than just tragic (some were tragic but he also attacked her pride, memories ect)

And I can think of several instances that Gorgon could potentially bring up for those two such as Kingpin's Wife Vanessa or Bolin growing up as an orphan.

Scorpion is an undead demon so we can't be sure that Gorgon can even mind read him.

Unless you have feats or some sort of rational behind this, i'm not entirely sure why you feel justified implying Scorpion's physiology will save him from telepathy. So until otherwise if it thinks then Gorgon can read its mind.

The event you mentioned for Kraven won't throw him off it will anger him and make him more dangerous in battle,

Bring up those memories will still act as a distraction from the battle. And even more so this reaction would be favourable one. Kraven would be easier to read, reckless, and generally more predictable to a telepathic opponent. A fairly desirable outcome for Gorgon (who is arguably faster and stronger as I have no doubts that between the two Gorgon would emerge the victor) And his healing factor would recover any wounds Kraven would manage to inflict.

Not to mention while I doubt the legitimacy on your mote strategy and will wait for your response to my points, I can hardly see Kraven, Roy and Scorpion staying patient and steadfast behind a mote while being telepathically taunted. If emotionally my strategy angers them to action than all the better.

this may sound weird but his suicide was a happy memory for him,

Your missing the point though. The nature of the memory doesn't matter, its the fact that anything at all can distract from battle. Every split second Kraven thinks about his suicide (good or bad) is a second he isn't concentrating on the fight.

And iv proven Gorgon can strike during those split seconds.

he wanted to dis and still does because he has already proven himself superior to Spider-Man, so bringing up his suicide will only drive him to fight harder so he can win the fight and be killed by Spider-Man.

Then Gorgon will just bring up other memories. I have shown how quickly he can scan the mind of character (a notable ninja that is used to guarding her thoughts)

As for Roy, you just made him mad and gave him fuel. Roy accepted the death early on and used it as a fuel to take down Bradley, just see what happened when Envy tried to mock Roy about it, only made him mad but still focused.

That was because he was facing Hughes' killer (or accomplice I cant remember if Lust or Envy killed Hughes) All he will face here is the memory and the emotions. The fact he failed his best friend, the feeling of helplessness as he apologized to a widowed Mrs Hughes and looked at Hughes' orphaned daughter.

And let me put it another way. For Roy this strategy is essentially a guaranteed kill. Why? Because Gorgon has so much to work with.

No Caption Provided

Now you are telling me a telepathic opponent adept at pulling out memories like this (and who unlike Edward would kill Roy in a second) is going to be no problem for Roy? Come on...

Roy may have the mental fortitude to get over it quickly if he had the time, but it really wouldn't take ether Vampirella or Gorgon more than a split second to kill him and move on.

[Countering Your Strategy]

My Strategy

Now in character my team would either go on the offensive by hunting you or set up a trap/defense (since Kraven and Mustang are the team leaders), but since my team lacks knowledge on where your team is or who they are the latter is more likely. Now since my team has no idea what is coming they will only put basic defenses which mean lava moat which would look something like this

No Caption Provided

Bolin can do this using lavabending he didn't make the one above so to show that he can here are his feats.

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As you can see he can easily make a lava barrier, he makes a whole circle around his team then increases the size of it like this.

At 14 seconds you can see it's size
At 14 seconds you can see it's size

Lastly he can make earth shields taller than himself, incedibly fast (and topple trees).

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This takes seconds only as you can see Bolin is an agile bender. Now while Bolin sets up defense the other team members talk strategy. Roy becomes the watch tower, Kingpin the muscle, Scorpion the doorway, Kraven the sniper and Bolin the defense.

Then my team waits there watching, but I imagine that your team gets to mine very quickly so my team wouldn't have to wait all that long.

Im going to say this now and try not to harp on it later. But I think it is highly unlikely your team would do this. Not only is a defensive strategy (that assumes a lot about the battlefield your team wouldn't know) but it also is something Bolin's never actually done before, much less as a first resort in an unknown situation.

Furthermore If all you claim my TP will do is anger your team, then why do you think they will turtle and wait the entire match? You yourself admitted that several members of your teams first instinct would be to hunt down/ confront my team. So why are you so confident that everyone will listen to Bolin's defensive strategy (a strategy he himself has never utilized this way or to this degree). You entire strategy is largely out of character and made even more so by my powers.

But even if your team does attempt it. Why would my team engage right away? I have proven that I can read your mind from a distance. I have also proven that Gorgon can be patient and scope out a target before a kill. If by your own admission half your team will be aggressively affected by my TP distraction then why (if my characters can play the long game) would you assume yours would be content to wait out in a mote while an unknown enemy mentally taunts them from the shadows?

Initially your team knows as little of the area as my team. But unlike my team who can gather information quickly, your team has no way to scope out a suitable "no buildings" area to cut off the mote. But yet your plan made it clear that Bolin would suggest this fairly out of character strategy to teammates far more likely to engage in direct combat, move the whole team to this building free zone, designate positions and set up the mote, all before encountering or being intercepted by my team. A team who is faster and knows (via mind link and birds eye view) where your team is and where they are heading too. And you expect this to work? I might not be fast enough to engage you during the planning phase, but while you are moving or before you set up shop I could easily attack you. I can even read your mind (im sure you are tired of hearing that) but as such I would have a good sense of what your plan is and who it relies on.

Ok assuming you get to an ideal location without encountering me...so what? I will explain below but you can nether effectively sense or counter Vampirella. My team can prode you and your more strong headed members into action, and my team knows the vulnerabilities of your team (Bolin being crucial to your plan). What is stopping Vampi from flying over and killing half of your unsuspecting team.

All in all you haven't shown why this mote strategy will work.

Also, SFW never specified where we start so my team will go to a place where there won't be any buildings cutting off our moat.

Im not certain what you mean

1. If you mean you will pick a building less area as your starting position, then no. You don't get to do this as an afterthought. That is called meta-gaming. IMO this type of thing is treated like prep time. You should have committed to it in a prior post.

2. If you mean your team will seek out a building less area (what the rest of my post assumes you meant) then fine.

If your stuck on number 1 then ask SFW for a ruling.

[Defending My Strategy]

Counters: Strategy

All Gorgon needs is a moments hesitation and he will blitz and kill like he did with Wolverine. He can attack stragglers or parties that split up (knowing where they are via Vampi and TP)

Except he will have no one to blitz since he can't get inside my lava moat, unless Vampirella carries him.

And your lava mote can't last for long if Bolin is down (as it will eventually cool). Not to mention my immediate plan doesn't require Gorgon to even entire the mote. Counter that and then we will talk about this.

[Roy Counters]

While that is happening Vampirella could possible, while invisible, fly over to other members of your team and drink them dry or rip them apart.

Not happening, if she flies as fast as a helicopter (your jet scan showed that she doesn't fly at those speeds normally) she creates noise as loud as a rushing wind moving at incedible speeds even if invisible, meaning my team can detect her if see gets close enough, however they cannot pinpoint her exact location but it does not matter Roy can shoot her down from a far as long as he knows her general direction as you can see here.

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Firstly, I have already explained this mote scenario is unlikely.

Secondly, the above approach was conjecture and an example of what she was capable of against an opponent she could get to. I.E in circumstances that are conducive to this tactic (like while your team is on the move)

Thirdly, I have shown Vampirella flying at both high and low speeds, with large wings and small bat ones, there is more than one way of her accomplishing this if the situation presented itself.

Fourthly, if she is travelling quickly, is heard by Roy, and he reacts, why do you think he will be able to tag her? You have provided no reaction or sensing feats for the alchemist.

Fifthly, if Vampirella does sneak up on Bolin or Roy do you honestly expect that they could use their AoE lava and fire attacks all willy-nilly in a (assuming your strategy holds) confined space with their allies and lava all around them?

Keep in mind only Scorpion has an out so assuming he teleports another person out, but that still leaves most of your team trapped. And nothing you have shown indicates that ether Mako or Roy could handle the others attacks fire/lava attacks if they attempted to combat Vampirella without liquefying each other (their durability is that of regular humans). And I very much doubt Kingpin or Kraven have many heat resistance feats.

What does that mean?

Not only could Vampirella sneak up and down Bolin (who from telepathy with Gorgon, she would know is the only controlling the lava) but in such a close quarters arrangement your team would be unable to effectively retaliate

Remember Roy's power works by changing the oxegen in the air so he can do this even bigger if he uses it against sky bound enemies,

Not quite...I mean your right but also miss leading. Yes he creates a spark via his gloves then shifts the airs density to create bombs, but how does that lead to bigger bombs against flying opponents? There isn't anymore oxygen to work with just because she is flying.

not onky that but he can spam this all he has to do is snap his fingers and an explosion accurs, I do not remember there ever being a limit to his abilities in the series, in fact while injured he spams his explosions to kill Lust and it doesn't seem to make him tired at all. The only limit seems to be oxygen, as long as there is he can use his power. But he is attacking out in the open he basically has ulimated ammo.

There are other restrictions on his powers, but mainly his powers rely on his ability to create sparks. So if his gloves were ruined or wet he wouldn't be able to preform his alchemy (without then making a transmutation circle)

And even if you make a point of his ability to rapidly attack, how will repetitively loud and blinding explosions help him find an invisible airborne opponent? Are you going to claim he can hear accurately over the explosions?

Also you say Kraven and Roy will be able to sense Vampi but all these explosions will do is blind Roy and your team. He has done it to himself before (that left an opening for Edward while a much faster Vampi or Gorgon could just tear out his throat)

So in essence you want to use repetitively loud and blinding attacks against an invisible airborne opponent you claim he can sense via sound. That makes sense.

All this is well and good (its not but all of my before points were inconsequential to this next part) but how are you expecting this to hurt Vampirella? She walks away from explosions like a bollywood movie star or an emo superhero

Car Explosions

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Tank Shells

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Plane Crashes

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Take your pick because Its All Good

So Roy cannot effectively sense, tag, or even hurt Vampirella. Not to mention all of his efforts at doing so will only be a further detriment to his own team (hindering them with blinding smoke and loud explosions). Further more if Vampirella goes in close to kill, his AoE attacks will hurt members of your own team in the enclosed space. So nothing is stopping her from killing Bolin and Roy.

Its honestly as if Roy is working for my team at this point.

[Kraven Counters]

Now if Vampirella survives that Kraven would be the one to take her using his jungle senses to detect where she is.

No Caption Provided

Detects someone from across the street. Also matched young Spidey's Spider Sense as you can see here.

Firstly, all this would have proven is that Kraven would know someone was somewhere around him. Vampirella is travelling faster than a bunch of walking street thugs and is not visible to the naked eye. Kraven would be unable to identity or pinpoint her based off of this feat.

Secondly, I say "would have" because these two feats are un-admissible as you have 616 Kraven. Both scan and link you posted is not canon to earth 616.

The scan is from Deadpool Vol 1 Issue #11 where 616 Deadpool goes to Earth 9712 and encounters a non canon version of Kraven. So no random "speed stealing ray" for Kraven.

Next that link is from the comic Spidey (2016) #9 which is non-canon (and not usable in this match) because it takes place in Earth TRN576.

Oh the pit falls of random scans.

Lets re-cap, both "sensing" feats you posted are not of 616 Kraven, thus nothing you have shown of your Kraven indicates he will be able to sense Vampirella at all.

Then kill her with a spear like he did Angel.

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Few things:

  1. Angel was visible, talking out loud and heading right for Kraven (so obviously Kraven expected the attack and could counter)
  2. A spear isn't going to stop Vampi, I think iv also proven its not even going to tag her ether. (and I HIGHLY doubt Kraven would be able to tag an invisible Vampirella through the heart)

Case and point nothing you have shown of Kraven (or your team) shows he will be able to accurately sense an invisible Vampirella much less counter her.

They could work together or separately. It depends on your strategy and how they will react and read the situation.

Okay, I will wait for what you have to say but the lava moat should seperate them, not sure how Gorgon will bypass it and even if he gets inside Scorpion can just teleport him away or double team him with Kraven, taking away his speed (re-Deadpool scan) so Scorpion can crush his skull.

Firstly Vampirella has been shown to be able to tank what your "watchtower" Roy can dish out. So her flying in and kill Bolin is a likely scenario.

Secondly you provided no admissible sensing feats for Kraven (and thus he also doesn't have that ludicrous "speed stealing ray" you posted)

[Conclusion]

[Character Counters Re-Cap]

Roy

  • you have shared no reliable way of sensing Vampi
  • his "rapid" explosions will blind, cloud with smoke and deafen (further hindering his and your teams ability to sense anything)
  • and Vampi has been shown to tank explosions
  • finally he is very vulnerable to TP Distraction (even canonically he has hesitated with faced with memories of his past)

Kraven

  • Both sensing feats you proveded for Kraven were of an alternate earth Kraven and not 616

Bolin

  • no effective counter has been given for Vampi (and as I know who created the mote) he will be quickly killed by my invisible flying vampire

Kingpin & Scorpion

  • you provided nothing to counter

[Strategy Counter Re-Cap]

Your team does not know the lay of the land, where my team is, or its relative composition. You plan to move to a buildingless area to create a lava mote assumes that there is such an area (again your team wouldn't know) and that it is in-character for your team to follow this defensive strategy.

Furthermore you have failed to sense or counter a flying Vampirella. And you counter strategy for her using Roy's alchemy just cements my belief you wont be able to hear or sense her. Assuming you make a mote (and my team doesn't gut you on the way) then Vampi can simply fly over invisible and kill your weaker members with ease (as she has done) while you have proved no durability feats for Bolin or Roy, so any close range AoE attacks they try will likely hurt or kill their teammates (might even knock them off mote and into the lava)

Roy, Bolin, and Kingpin all have no way to stop Vampirella. While Scorpion may teleport away, you haven't shown him be able to deal with her ether. That's Vampi and Gorgon vs Scorpion and Kraven.

Honestly I could say a lot more but there is much you have to prove so il let you get too it. But before you do...praise the epicness that is this post!

No Caption Provided

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#31 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkbound: Nice post, will mention that Earth TRN576 is non-official according to your link.

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#32 Edited by Arkbound (1666 posts) - - Show Bio
@major_hellstorm said:

@arkbound: Nice post, will mention that Earth TRN576 is non-official according to your link.

what do you mean, you are still going to use that feat?

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#33 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkbound: Depends on whether I can prove it is 616 or not. Post will be up sometime this week.

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#34 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by Arkbound (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkbound: Depends on whether I can prove it is 616 or not. Post will be up sometime this week.

No Caption Provided

cool let me know when its up

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#36 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkbound: Let's do one more post each after this?

Edit: Or two more for you if you want since I started.

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#37 Posted by Arkbound (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: whatever you want, thought it will save time if we iron out a few things before another round

  1. are you getting those 2003 anime feats?
  2. were you planning on requesting a specific starting location

Also, SFW never specified where we start so my team will go to a place where there won't be any buildings cutting off our moat.

Im not certain what you mean

1. If you mean you will pick a building less area as your starting position, then no. You don't get to do this as an afterthought. That is called meta-gaming. IMO this type of thing is treated like prep time. You should have committed to it in a prior post.

2. If you mean your team will seek out a building less area (what the rest of my post assumes you meant) then fine.

If your stuck on number 1 then ask SFW for a ruling

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#38 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkbound: Okay, I wilk want to get another post after this if you don't mind (although I am not too confident about this match).

No, I didn't watch it and you have Roy getting distacted there so...

No, I meant the second option but I don't mean the location has zero buildings just relatively empty spot (like the car part but not since it's far).

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#39 Edited by Arkbound (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm:

Okay, I will want to get another post after this if you don't mind (although I am not too confident about this match).

yes we can do a post after this next one

No, I didn't watch it and you have Roy getting distacted there so...

Well I assume you had 2003 as well, but the gif I shared was more a character/ situation demonstration than a feat. Anyway try pm'ing SFW

No, I meant the second option but I don't mean the location has zero buildings just relatively empty spot (like the car part but not since it's far).

Gotcha

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#40 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkbound: Cool.

I did too but I asked (although up till now my team in the OP is wrong so I am not sure he will answer...)

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#41 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2: Counters

Serial Killing VS. Killing Without Remorse

Okay so to begin I would like to say that killing as your first move is not actually an advantage against an opponent that will incap/KO/kill you as their opening move because they do not care about killing their opponent just exploiting anything they can use against their opponent, this means that instead of going out of their way to land a killing blow right off the bat they instead go for more tactical moves as their initial attacks which aims to either incap, weaken, KO or kill their opponent, whatever they can land.

For example in this battle Bolin's first attack was hurling a boulder sized rock at Ming Hua (easily deadly) then he hits P'Li with the same attack Sokka used to kill Combustion Man right before she used it (meaning she couldn't stop the explosion after it landed, the only reason she lived was cause she aimed upwards). If you don't like that example take this one where Bolin threw bombs at people. So again even my team's most moral member would use the most tactical move as his opening move. You could argue that going for the kill isn't also going out of their way but I still don't see the advantage here, it is not like this is strictly a death battle.

Your Advantages

ou realize that of course Gorgon has feats of using mind reading and anticipation to his advantage right? I already shared some of them with you. And Vampi also has mental control feats (most of which she cant use per rules) but prove she will competently understand and interpret the information Gorgon is sending her and vice versa.

Not sure what you are trying to say exactly, I said it will make a big difference if you use the knowledge to your advantage and a small one if you don't (I was countering your basic knowledge here not mindlink).

Il post more of the fight because Tomi uses both his speed and stealth against Wolverine.

Sorry, I was mistaken then, the Gorgon even confirms he used stealth by saying he is that silent. I have a counter to this however which will be in the Kraven and Scorpion vs Gorgon section.

How is mind linking and telepathy not a huge advantage? Especially given your strategy. I know exactly where your team is and what strategies they have employed as well as who set them and how. For example I know Bolin is responsible for this lava mote you are claiming. You shouldn't underestimate this advantage.

Because my team uses AoE attacks which is hard to dodge even if you know it is coming, it is an advantage maybe even a big one but isn't a game changing one.

Mind Attacks

It doesn't have to be "tragic" just emotional/ distracting. Look again at Gorgon vs Elektra

You used the word tragic yourself which is why I used it.

And I can think of several instances that Gorgon could potentially bring up for those two such as Kingpin's Wife Vanessa or Bolin growing up as an orphan.

If his goal was to distract then yes this would work but only for a short while, because looking at your scans of Gorgon using it on Logan, he seemingly whispers things into your head instead of making you see it or remember (A.K.A he uses words instead of images) so it will be easy enough to tune out. I know you make a point to say that Gorgon can kill in a half second but you also say he uses TP when he is in range and that means by the time he gets in the moat they have already tuned out the TP.

Unless you have feats or some sort of rational behind this, i'm not entirely sure why you feel justified implying Scorpion's physiology will save him from telepathy. So until otherwise if it thinks then Gorgon can read its mind.

Scorpion is an undead demon with no brain and Scorpion has never had his mind read, so the burden of proof is on you.

Bring up those memories will still act as a distraction from the battle. And even more so this reaction would be favourable one. Kraven would be easier to read, reckless, and generally more predictable to a telepathic opponent. A fairly desirable outcome for Gorgon (who is arguably faster and stronger as I have no doubts that between the two Gorgon would emerge the victor) And his healing factor would recover any wounds Kraven would manage to inflict.

Well it works both ways, if Gorgon wanted Kraven mad he would become more predictable but he would also drop his code of honour the only thing that kept him from beating Spider-Man. HF would not help against all poisons unless you have feats of it.

Not to mention while I doubt the legitimacy on your mote strategy and will wait for your response to my points, I can hardly see Kraven, Roy and Scorpion staying patient and steadfast behind a mote while being telepathically taunted. If emotionally my strategy angers them to action than all the better.

Once you start making them mad they won't wait around but they won't have to Gorgon and Vampirella will be close enough to attack.

That was because he was facing Hughes' killer (or accomplice I cant remember if Lust or Envy killed Hughes) All he will face here is the memory and the emotions. The fact he failed his best friend, the feeling of helplessness as he apologized to a widowed Mrs Hughes and looked at Hughes' orphaned daughter.

As I said looking at your scans Gorgon does not bring up images or emotions just thoughts which can be tuned out. Also Envy killed Hughes Lust injured him.

And let me put it another way. For Roy this strategy is essentially a guaranteed kill. Why? Because Gorgon has so much to work with.

That came from the 2003 anime and in FMA:B Roy never hesitated to go for the kill or had any memories to distract him, SFW said that you can only use FMA:B and manga feats here.

My Strategy

Im going to say this now and try not to harp on it later. But I think it is highly unlikely your team would do this. Not only is a defensive strategy (that assumes a lot about the battlefield your team wouldn't know) but it also is something Bolin's never actually done before, much less as a first resort in an unknown situation.

Why would we need to know anything about the battlefield? We can literally do it anywherenin the map. Bolin has never done it but i have clearly shown that he can, it will be a first resort as 1. My team knows nothing about yours. 2. My team knows nothing about the location. 3. The only thing my team knows is that they are being hunted and have to beat the enemy team. This means Kraven has nothing to hunt and no one in my team knows where to even start looking for your team so the only logical strategy given the fact that they know you are after them is to set up a defensive position. This is not out of character Kraven has set traps for Spidey before and Mustang being a military man would know that when you have men who are vulnerable to gunfire and use ranged weaponry/powers the best strategy would be similar to trench warfare (although FMA is set during the late 1800, they do have tanks so it is fair to assume that Mustang would know about the tactic).

Furthermore If all you claim my TP will do is anger your team, then why do you think they will turtle and wait the entire match? You yourself admitted that several members of your teams first instinct would be to hunt down/ confront my team. So why are you so confident that everyone will listen to Bolin's defensive strategy (a strategy he himself has never utilized this way or to this degree). You entire strategy is largely out of character and made even more so by my powers

1. Timing, they make the moat before th TP.

2. They do not "turtle" the entire match, they use offense the moment they see your team, but this does not mean they leave the moat (only Roy and Kraven would be mad but they are intelligent enough to tell that is a bad move).

3. As I said my team has nothing to go on, they know nothing, anything they try will leave them vulnerable, these guys know how battles play out (we have a ninja, colonel, hunter, crime boss and pro bender), they know when to strike and when to defend.

3.This is *not* Bolin's strategy and I have proved that he can do it.

But even if your team does attempt it. Why would my team engage right away? I have proven that I can read your mind from a distance. I have also proven that Gorgon can be patient and scope out a target before a kill. If by your own admission half your team will be aggressively affected by my TP distraction then why (if my characters can play the long game) would you assume yours would be content to wait out in a mote while an unknown enemy mentally taunts them from the shadows?

So your team just taunts mine from a distance? Have they ever used that strategy? You called them serial killers and they both seem like aggressive fighters and not hunters (Gorgon is smart but he seems proud as well). Not only that but only Roy and Kraven get aggressive both again are way too intelligent to do something dumb like step out of the moat (Kraven when he got mad started using more guns and fighting unfairly but stayed a smart fighter and Mustang when mad spamed explosions but kept them contained).

Initially your team knows as little of the area as my team. But unlike my team who can gather information quickly, your team has no way to scope out a suitable "no buildings" area to cut off the mote. But yet your plan made it clear that Bolin would suggest this fairly out of character strategy to teammates far more likely to engage in direct combat, move the whole team to this building free zone, designate positions and set up the mote, all before encountering or being intercepted by my team. A team who is faster and knows (via mind link and birds eye view) where your team is and where they are heading too. And you expect this to work? I might not be fast enough to engage you during the planning phase, but while you are moving or before you set up shop I could easily attack you. I can even read your mind (im sure you are tired of hearing that) but as such I would have a good sense of what your plan is and who it relies on.

You make it sound so hard but it isn't by buildingless space I only mean not directly beside a building and there is plenty of spaces like that. You seem to think that you can find my team in seconds but later you adjust your plan to say that you can fly under the radar and not be heard. So how fast do you fly?

Regardless of your answer the set up takes less than a minute and Vanpirella has to cover a lot of disatance. The CoD map used is a town in Basrah, Iraq (the wiki calls the map, Basrah, an urban town) no such place exists but Basra is a real city there so Basrah is most probably just a Basra and Backlot is just a small portion of it. To estimate, Basra is 44,730 acres big so if Backlot was only 0.002% of that it would be 0.8946 acres long or 38,969 square feet (in the map a tanks look really small so it isn't far fetched), so if Vampirella travels at military helicopter speeds it would still take minutes for her to search the whole map. Now I can already hear you arguing that she would stop once she spots my team, but would she? Her job is to search for my entire team but how would she know how many we are so why would she stop looking at the sight of my group? She already knows that my team has 5 members so she can't use her own team's to judge how big my team would be. Not only that but if she starts looking in the wrong direction (which is likely) it would still take at least a minute for her to find my team even if she did not look through the whole map (and obviously if she flew upwards to try to get the view in the OP our team would be hard to spot, that would take time and she would possibly be blinded by clouds).

Ok assuming you get to an ideal location without encountering me...so what? I will explain below but you can nether effectively sense or counter Vampirella. My team can prode you and your more strong headed members into action, and my team knows the vulnerabilities of your team (Bolin being crucial to your plan). What is stopping Vampi from flying over and killing half of your unsuspecting team.

I'll counter most of this later but after Bolin sets up the moat he could die and not much would change.

Counters: Strategy

And your lava mote can't last for long if Bolin is down (as it will eventually cool). Not to mention my immediate plan doesn't require Gorgon to even entire the mote. Counter that and then we will talk about this.

Do you have evidence for this? Lava was only ever cooled by Bolin, Ghazan or an airbender, Ghazan's lava in fact was so unstoppable that it melted through an entire temple.

Roy

Secondly, the above approach was conjecture and an example of what she was capable of against an opponent she could get to. I.E in circumstances that are conducive to this tactic (like while your team is on the move)

Thirdly, I have shown Vampirella flying at both high and low speeds, with large wings and small bat ones, there is more than one way of her accomplishing this if the situation presented itself.

Yes, but you said she is invisible in human form working as a scout so she is moving fast, even if she does slow down the second she sees our team my time would hear her, this is about how loud she would be (louder even as she is much bigger than that plane) and my team is filled with peak humans so detecting something as loud as that is no problem.

Fourthly, if she is travelling quickly, is heard by Roy, and he reacts, why do you think he will be able to tag her? You have provided no reaction or sensing feats for the alchemist.

By spamming AoE attacks in her general direction.

Fifthly, if Vampirella does sneak up on Bolin or Roy do you honestly expect that they could use their AoE lava and fire attacks all willy-nilly in a (assuming your strategy holds) confined space with their allies and lava all around them?

Yes, I have already shown Roy use his attacks from a distance it would not harm his team in the slightest and even if Vampirella was so close that Roy would risk burning his own team (which is highly unlikely, you can't get bird's eye when you fly lower than a house) he can just control his blast to make it a flame burst instead of an explosion like this.

Keep in mind only Scorpion has an out so assuming he teleports another person out, but that still leaves most of your team trapped. And nothing you have shown indicates that ether Mako or Roy could handle the others attacks fire/lava attacks if they attempted to combat Vampirella without liquefying each other (their durability is that of regular humans). And I very much doubt Kingpin or Kraven have many heat resistance feats.

Okay what? I think I need to draw you a picture or something so here is my best one.

No Caption Provided

As you can see the explosions are not affecting the base or moat at all. Also Mako isn't part of my team but I assume you mean Bolin, I have no idea why you think his lava will affect the base. But even if it does you are wrong about one thing, Kraven does have feats against explosions.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

See that blast? Bigger than anything Roy could ever do, but in the next issue Kraven is 100% fine (check Rocket Raccoon: Grounded #4-5 if you doubt me).

Not only could Vampirella sneak up and down Bolin (who from telepathy with Gorgon, she would know is the only controlling the lava) but in such a close quarters arrangement your team would be unable to effectively retaliate

But it wouldn't be in close quarters, again, we can hear her coming.

Not quite...I mean your right but also miss leading. Yes he creates a spark via his gloves then shifts the airs density to create bombs, but how does that lead to bigger bombs against flying opponents? There isn't anymore oxygen to work with just because she is flying.

But there is a lot more space and he can create explosions without worrying about hurting his allies if he is aiming at a skybound target. (Also I am pretty sure in the manga he transmutes oxygen to something else and doesn't control density).

There are other restrictions on his powers, but mainly his powers rely on his ability to create sparks. So if his gloves were ruined or wet he wouldn't be able to preform his alchemy (without then making a transmutation circle)

No, in the end he got the powers of Ed & Al, meaning he no longer needs a transmutation circle.

And even if you make a point of his ability to rapidly attack, how will repetitively loud and blinding explosions help him find an invisible airborne opponent? Are you going to claim he can hear accurately over the explosions?

Also you say Kraven and Roy will be able to sense Vampi but all these explosions will do is blind Roy and your team. He has done it to himself before (that left an opening for Edward while a much faster Vampi or Gorgon could just tear out his throat)

He won't aim since there is nothing to aim at but he knows the general direction of where Vampirella is via hearing and he blows that spot up. Also use FMA;B feats because this is Roy spamming explosions (also Roy staying smart even when angered by the person who killed his best friend and was killing his lieutenant, he doesn't do anything stupid here he keeps his flames in check the only difference is he spams his blasts), as you can see he is not blinded nor is Riza.

So in essence you want to use repetitively loud and blinding attacks against an invisible airborne opponent you claim he can sense via sound. That makes sense.

It makes sense, here is the timeline 1. He hears the sound. 2. He blows up that sound. he is not Deadshot he spams his blasts which are AoE in nature so he can hit her without aiming.

All this is well and good (its not but all of my before points were inconsequential to this next part) but how are you expecting this to hurt Vampirella? She walks away from explosions like a bollywood movie star or an emo superhero

1. I highly doubt she can stay invisible after that or stays flying(making it easier to aim for her). 2. Roy's blasts are more powerful, you can see him using blasts that fill a small building and like I have shown before he can use blasts bigger than a small building, this is more impressive than the airplane crash Vampirella tanked, not only that but Roy uses multiple blasts to kill her.

So Roy cannot effectively sense

Yes he can, a normal soldier can, you have not shown Vampirella go from fast to slow in less than a second and if Vampirella was moving so slowly the whole time that no one could hear her, suprise Kraven can detect her via jungle senses (funny since you said she is too fast for that but also too slow to be heard)

Not to mention all of his efforts at doing so will only be a further detriment to his own team (hindering them with blinding smoke and loud explosions). Further more if Vampirella goes in close to kill, his AoE attacks will hurt members of your own team in the enclosed space. So nothing is stopping her from killing Bolin and Roy.

In a distance which was the plan Roy can let a rip and his team would be fine, in close quarters he can use fine control to keep his team from harm. His explosions are also non blinding and while they are loud Vampirella would be the most affected since Vampirella takes it point blank and has superhuman senses.

Its honestly as if Roy is working for my team at this point.

Cool story bro.

Kraven

Firstly, all this would have proven is that Kraven would know someone was somewhere around him. Vampirella is travelling faster than a bunch of walking street thugs and is not visible to the naked eye. Kraven would be unable to identity or pinpoint her based off of this feat.

The thugs were not visible to Kraven as he had his backed against them and just because she was faster, doesn't mean she is harder to sense, it is the opposite actually as she is audible I linked this before but this is the sound of an RC plane going 300 KPH (about the same speed as a military copter or Vampirella's speed) and Vampirella is much bigger than an RC plane so she is much louder (bigger vibrations=louder sounds).

Secondly, I say "would have" because these two feats are un-admissible as you have 616 Kraven. Both scan and link you posted is not canon to earth 616.

The scan is from Deadpool Vol 1 Issue #11 where 616 Deadpool goes to Earth 9712 and encounters a non canon version of Kraven. So no random "speed stealing ray" for Kraven.

Sorry but no, Deadpool Vol 1 Issue #11 (1997) is a parody of The Amazing Spider Man Issue #47 and in the issue yes there are speed stealing rays.

No Caption Provided

But here is the fun part, it isn't just a parody, Earth 9712 has the exact same history as Earth 616 according to the Marvel Wiki except Deadpool messed it up, you can see evidence of this by seeing that Deadpool issue 11 basically ripped panels right off Spidey-Man issue 47.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

In fact here is the jungle senses scan in 616.

No Caption Provided

So the speed ray and jungle senses is 100% canon the only reason I used the DP scan was to show that Gorgon's HF would not work on it (there is no reason to assume the Kravens had different rays they explained it the same way).

Next that link is from the comic Spidey (2016) #9 which is non-canon (and not usable in this match) because it takes place in Earth TRN576.

That is unofficial according to the wiki itself. When Robbie Thompson was asked about whether he was doing a re-telling or not he said "We’re looking at this book as less a “re-telling” and more of a look at Peter’s younger years." (Note: he says it isn't a re-telling multiple times) which means the stories they write are canon to 616 Spidey, it isn't a re-telling which would make it non-canon but instead is just extra stories about Peter when he was 15. Marvel.com also indirectly says it is canon while describing the first issue by saying "Think you know everything about Peter Parker’s early days? Think again. It’s action, adventure and a rip-roaring romp in classic Marvel style as SPIDEY swings onto shelves this winter! Featuring adventures from throughout the web-slinging wonder’s younger years...." basically saying that this is Spidey in his younger days, the same Spidey as today. So in short it is canon unless directly stated otherwise (and a wiki saying it unofficially isn't won't cut it)

Lets re-cap, both "sensing" feats you posted are not of 616 Kraven, thus nothing you have shown of your Kraven indicates he will be able to sense Vampirella at all.

Wrong. The Deadpool scans are technically not from Earth 616 but have 616 counterparts which I have shown and Spidey was indirectly stated to be canon while having nothing to prove otherwise.

Few things:

Angel was visible, talking out loud and heading right for Kraven (so obviously Kraven expected the attack and could counter)

This is true but it doesn't matter much, the point of the scan was to show that Kraven can hit her mid flight, the scan meant to show he can sense her was above that.

A spear isn't going to stop Vampi,

Issue number please? The scan is blurry and it looks like the spear did hit her heart and that she felt in the last panel. Also Kraven's spears have poison in them so it will definitely affect her and if nother else reveal her location.

I think iv also proven its not even going to tag her ether. (and I HIGHLY doubt Kraven would be able to tag an invisible Vampirella through the heart)

Not really, Kraven is FTE to Agent Venom, a bullet timer, when he moves (and yes Agent Venom was poisoned before this but he had time to heal).

No Caption Provided

Case and point nothing you have shown of Kraven (or your team) shows he will be able to accurately sense an invisible Vampirella much less counter her.

So you are looking for a feat of Kraven tagging and sensing a bullet timing opponent who is hard to see with his spear, a little specific but I have just the thing.

No Caption Provided

That is Kraven's (inferior) son being blinded by Mysterio, sensing Doctor Octopus then tagging him with a spear through the mist. I know Kraven's son is a mutant and has super strength but he is also slower than Kraven and does not poses greater skill or senses, by showings is only ever as good as Kraven (but Kraven has still better feats IMO) and as for Doctor Octopus he is a proven bullet timer who can fight even when blinded.

So her flying in and kill Bolin is a likely scenario.

Even if Bolin died the lava moat would stay, it doesn't change much.

Secondly you provided no admissible sensing feats for Kraven (and thus he also doesn't have that ludicrous "speed stealing ray" you posted)

But now I have, the same feats but in 616's buttery goodness.

How My Team Beats Yours

Alright enough countering, let me show you how my team actually beats yours.

Versus Vampirella

I have talked about this plenty so this will be short.

Here is how it goes down Kraven senses Vampirella (Roy hears her as well but Kraven has more accurate senses) then Roy attacks her with the biggest most powerful blasts he can, he basically only has snap so he can do this many times a second and can do it for a long period of time, when the first blast hits Vampirella will turn visible and/or fall from the sky making it easier for Roy to pin down her location and will lead to more devastating blows. Now before you say that it is OOC remember that because of your TP Roy is in a frenzy (you saw how he was against Envy, that is how he will be here) and will not stop attacking Vampirella until he sees her burnt corpse. Now if this completely fails, Vampirella having no ranged attacks (none that you have shown), will have to get close in which case Kraven senses her and spears her with poison again making her visible and/or making he crash into the ground, afterwards Kraven finishes her (again you made Kraven mad his code of honour is gone) by beheading her or stabbing her.

I have shown you feats before but the final battle of FMA:B really shows how OP Roy is so here is a link to it.

Versus Gorgon

Now it isn't exactly clear to me what Gorgon does, you mentioned stealth and taunting from a distance, the latter I countered. So for this section I will assume that Gorgon is inside the moat and is about to blitz, I will also assume that Kingpin and Bolin have already gotten rid of the mind distraction and that Roy is busy with Vampirella. Now how does my team deal with Gorgon? It takes 3 steps which are...

Step 1: Take away the speed.

Step 2: Take away the sword.

Step 3: Murder.

To make it more exact, the battle goes like this. As soon as Gorgon is in the moat Scorpion spits hellfire at him and Kingpin charges at him, meanwhile Bolin creates a wall for Roy and Kraven gets ready to fire. Then Kingpin, Scorpion, Kraven and Bolin corner Gorgon and before Gorgon can blitz he gets his speed removed. Now you may be thinking that Gorgon could have blizted before that but regardless, Kingpin and Bolin gave Kraven a clean shot so they have outlived their usefulness, as for Scorpion and Kraven well they couldn't care less about getting stabbed, Scorpion being undead and Kraven being immortal.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Moving on, with Gorgon's speed gone, Scorpion traps him by summoning zombies from the underground then he teleport steals the Godkiller and kills Gorgon with it (notice how Kraven is only taking away Gorgon's speed giving his space to deal with Vamiprella if needed also notice how this plan would work even without the moat albeit it would be harder).

Conclusions

Counter Conclusions: Character Recap

Roy

you have shared no reliable way of sensing Vampi

Given the noise she makes while flying and the fact that Kraven is there to help i do.

his "rapid" explosions will blind, cloud with smoke and deafen (further hindering his and your teams ability to sense anything)

From a distance? No, it won't because it would be too far to affect my team. Up close? No, it won't because Roy has fine control over it.

and Vampi has been shown to tank explosions

Not rapid explosions as powerful as Roy's and she hasn't shown to ta k them and stay invisible and in flight.

finally he is very vulnerable to TP Distraction (even canonically he has hesitated with faced with memories of his past)

Those are not canon feats and SFW said they aren't useable (oh the pitfalls of random scans :P), in Brotherhood we have seen what happens twice and it just makes him mad and unhinged but still smart.

Kraven

Both sensing feats you proveded for Kraven were of an alternate earth Kraven and not 616

Not exactly, as I have shown both are canon.

Bolin

no effective counter has been given for Vampi (and as I know who created the moat) he will be quickly killed by my invisible flying vampire

Roy and Kraven is my counter to her and even if Bolin dies he has already served his purpose.

Strategy Counter Re-Cap

Your team does not know the lay of the land, where my team is, or its relative composition. You plan to move to a buildingless area to create a lava mote assumes that there is such an area (again your team wouldn't know) and that it is in-character for your team to follow this defensive strategy.

Your first sentence leads to your last one. My team does not need to assume anything if there are multiple buildings there must be a gap between them aka a buildingless area.

Roy, Bolin, and Kingpin all have no way to stop Vampirella. While Scorpion may teleport away, you haven't shown him be able to deal with her ether. That's Vampi and Gorgon vs Scorpion and Kraven.

I have shown how they can but if need be Kraven and Scorpion can beat your team since you have no way to put down Kraven (KO? Heck no), but it won't come to that at the very least not early on.

My Conclusions

  • My team can deal with yours.
  • My team can sense Vampirella.
  • My team can make the moat quickly but also does not need it.
  • Kraven's scans are canon and Roy's scans are not.
  • My team can negate Gorgon's advantages.

Alright, this post burned through 5,000 words now it's your it's your turn, goodluck.

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#42 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by Arkbound (1666 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: I'm just waiting on Arkbound then I make my final post.

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#46 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Posted by Arkbound (1666 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkbound: Actually, give me 2 minutes, I noticed something I need to point out (it isn't big just a tiny correction).

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#49 Posted by Arkbound (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Iv essentially finished the post (im going to sleep on it then edit tmr) so kindly point out the correction you are going to make

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#50 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkbound: Well in the very top of your second post you quoted me saying "No one in my team has a problem with killing as well, not even Bolin who killed two people in mech suits with no guilt."

And I did say that but I edited to this

"No one in my team has a problem with killing as well, not even Bolin who could have killed two people in mech suits but showed no guilt."

I am 100% in the wrong for not telling you that I changed it (it was before you made your post so I thought it didn't matter) and I'm sorry for that.

I removed it when I saw your post didn't include it but I re-added it again since it's a sleazeball claim but if you want I can remove the edit again.