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#1 Edited by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps

Characters:

  • FOX Ajax
  • MCU Black Widow

Perks:

  • Adamantium Weapons (10) - Ajax
  • DCEU Batman Martial Arts (3) - Ajax
  • Earpieces (2)
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

No Caption Provided

@chromtheexalt

Characters:

  • MCU Killmonger (no suit/herb)
  • DCEU Batman

Perks:

  • 1 week of prep anywhere (15)
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Tournament Rules

  • FOX characters are composite (with one exception: Nightcrawler)
  • Feats from tie-in comics are allowed
  • Standard Gear (i.e. regularly uses the gear)
  • Victory by KO, death, or incap only
  • Everyone is in character but determined to win
  • Characters keep the knowledge they already have
  • Character personalities/history are a factor (i.e. Green Arrow and Prometheus will NOT get along if on the same team)
  • All bow/arrow characters come with a quiver of 20 standard arrows, 2 grappling hook arrows, 1 ensnaring net arrow, and 1 flashbang arrow
  • All guns are fully loaded but with no extra ammo or clips
  • Agents of SHIELD characters have their ICERS replaced with handguns (if it is standard for them)
  • No time manipulation of any kind will be allowed (i.e. from Eva Sharpe and Rip Hunter)
  • With prep, each individual character still needs to lose a majority to MCU Captain America in a 1v1 fight
  • Prep takes place in a combined universe
  • If you choose a gear perk for a character that has never used the gear, they will not automatically have mastery over the gear
  • No outside help is allowed into the battlefield (AKA you can't bring in fodder or other characters from prep)
  • 3 posts each with a 14 day limit per post. You will be bumped after 7 days. Extensions may be allowed if you tell me and your opponent before the 14 day limit is over.
  • Link to the tournament

Voting Rules

  • Only the two participants are allowed to debate
  • If you want to be tagged to vote at the end, say "T4V"
  • Vote for whoever was the best debater, or who convinced you more, not for which team you think would win
  • Make sure to provide reasoning for your vote
  • Votes based on obvious character bias will not be counted
  • Be respectful, honourable, and civil

Battlefield

Starting distance is 100 feet. Out of view from the other team. Opposite sides of a dark warehouse. Assume that the height of the warehouse is 100 feet.

No Caption Provided

Best of luck!

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#3 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2645 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by Chronicplane (9182 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP.

Online
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#5 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#6 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2645 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2645 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Do you want me to make a post since Chrom isn't coming back (this is the 3rd time he's pulled this stunt against me alone)?

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#10 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by DiarrheaRegatta (5170 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps: So since DR doesn't want to take over and Tomtheawesome hasn't replied, either I go up against you or I just pass you on to the next round. Your choice!

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#15 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2645 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: I say just move me ahead, get this tourney going quicker.

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#16 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps: I've given it some thought, and I don't like moving someone through so easily. You'd essentially move on straight to semi-finals since this was an 8-person tournament. I'll give you 3 options:

1) I make up a scenario for you that you need to prove your team could overcome. I make the scenario, you counter, I counter, you close. Nothing crazy, and then people vote on if they were convinced your team could overcome the scenario I gave you.

OR

2) I move you on to the next round but I give your team some sort of handicap in the next round, i.e. loss of a perk, a side objective, etc.

OR

3) You go up against me and my team but we can limit our debate to 2 posts each

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#18 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2645 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Alright fair enough. Let's try and go for the scenario, have a change of pace.

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#19 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps:

Scenario

Similar to the BvS Warehouse scene with Batman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEaX_uHHFUA

Loading Video...

There are 15 mercenaries spread throughout the warehouse. They are unaware of your arrival but are on high alert as they know they will be attacked by two dangerous and highly-trained agents (your team). The mercenaries do not have earpieces or any means of communication between each other, but they will be alerted if they hear or see you. Natasha and Ajax spawn together on one side of the warehouse.

You have two objectives:

The first objective is to save Martha. Martha is being held hostage in the center of the warehouse, surrounded by 3 of the mercenaries, with one of them pointing a flamethrower at her. They have orders to kill Martha should your team be spotted approaching her. Once you find and save Martha, you need to make it to the extraction zone, located on the opposite side of the warehouse from where you spawned.

No Caption Provided

The second objective is to knock out, incapacitate, or kill FOX Wolverine. He will be waiting for you at the extraction zone. He won't appear or engage until your team has made it to the extraction zone. He will be bloodlusted and will do everything within his power to kill Natasha and Ajax. Your team will not be aware of Wolverine until you see him standing in the way at the extraction zone. Your team will know that he needs to be dealt with in order to complete the mission.

No Caption Provided

Good luck!

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#20 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2645 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Don't worry I saw, I'll try and get this up relatively soon.

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#22 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Edited by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2645 posts) - - Show Bio

Ajax and Black Widow: The Best In The Business

No Caption Provided
Loading Video...

Francis 'Ajax' Freeman: The Merc's Mortal Enemy

Gear, Powers and Perks:

Loading Video...

(stops at 1:21)

Now before we get into general stats, we should go over what makes Ajax special, that being his powers that he obtained which not only give him confirmed superhuman reflexes, but also the ability to not feel pain, giving his durability a nice boost which I'll discuss later.

Next I want to go over the perks I gave my team. The earpieces are pretty self-explanatory, giving my team constant access to each other's voice and status.

Now the other two are far more important for Ajax in particular, as both benefiting himself. Them being Adamantium weapons and the Bats' skill on top of Ajax's own, and given how you both using a scene where Batman's skill is best highlighted and effectively repping Wolverine, I don't feel the need to go in depth over the changes, but let it be known that these 2 perks cover Ajax's biggest weaknesses.

Stats:

Deadpool
Deadpool

Now whilst strength isn't exactly Ajax's forte, he's still capable of some decently impressive feats, such as this one where whilst stuck in a choke hold, throws Deadpool quite a fair distance. Though fortunately, the Adamantium weapons will make this all the more noteworthy for Ajax,

Deadpool
Deadpool

In terms of durability that comes with Ajax;'s powers, in his final fight with Wade he survived getting a sword right through the chest, and was ready to fight shortly after. Super impressive which will make it so that the only way to really put Ajax down is a hit to the brain.

Deadpool
Deadpool

And in terms of speed, this is undoubtedly what Ajax's best category is, having a legitimate bullet timing feat whilst on a high speed motorcycle, damn impressive stuff for this tier.

Natasha Romanoff: The Black Widow

Now I'll only be going over the fundamentals for Natasha, so let's hop straight into it.

Captain America: Civil War
Captain America: Civil War

For a quick strength feat, here's Natasha Clearly staggering Bucky with a strong punch, meaning that a strong hit will certainly do some damage.

Captain America: Winter Soldier
Captain America: Winter Soldier

As for speed, a good showcase was when Natasha avoided a Grenade launcher after being fired, then flipping between all of the cars and gunfire and escape safely. Pretty solid stuff.

Captain America: Civil War
Captain America: Civil War

And in regards to skill, despite being ambushed and having the lower stat gap, Natasha pretty evidently outskills Crossbones here and would've won had his pain tolerance not be so high. And considering Crossbones could tango with Cap, this is pretty impressive.

Step I: Saving the Plot Device

So then, let's begin with saving Martha, and this is where Natahsa gonna be mvp, as given her agent status, she can use her gadgets and skill in stealth to take out a good number of folks, and secure Martha's safety.

Loading Video...

Now the thing abut Batman being able to stealth hs way into the arena, is that afaik, beyond this scene I don't remember any stealth feats really worth a damn for Bruce, allowing Natahsa, somehow who can already sneak up on in-humans like Loki (note that despite Loki's snarky demeanour, it's clear that Natasha did sneak up on Loki) the ability to use her stealth skills to snag some KOs with her toolkit.

Once Natasha finds Martha, now come the point to which she takes out those who guard her:

Iron Man 2
Iron Man 2

A quick pair of smoke bombs and a couple of headshots from her pistol should be more than enough to secure some quick kills (Natahsa's never really had any true qualms about killing those she knows are enemies, so she should be willing to at the very least leave them incapacitated and ready for a one-punch KO). After-which Natasha will tell Martha to stay where she is and wait until all of the other enemies have been defeated before they reach the exit.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Avengers: Black Widow Strikes #1

Now behind enemy lines, this gives Natasha another chance to stay behind the enemy and take out some enemies, with her Widow bites in particular being incredibly efficient at taking groups of mooks out in a single go.

And now comes Ajax's role in this section, which will be that once Natasha starts taking on some mooks there will obviously be some noise, which is when Ajax busts through the front doors whilst the fodder are distracted, ready to mop the flow with all of them via his speed, skill and adamantium weaponry. And with both soldiers on both ends of the battlefield, it shouldn't take long for the guards to be wiped off the face of the earth, allowing the duo to take Martha home easy as pie.

Step II: Defeating the Mascot

After that, let's focus on The Wolverine, and whilst he might be quite intimidating, he shouldn't be anything my team can't beat in a 2v1. It will be a simple case of Ajax keeping Wolverine busy and doing the brawling whilst Natasha goes for a electric tase for the win.

In terms of stats, whilst I'll admit neither of my character swill last long against adamantium blades, Ajax's weapons being coated in the same metal should make it simple for him to clash with Logan, which combined with his superior strength should make him generally hit harder. And in regards to speed, Ajax can certainly hold his own, being able to tango with Deadpool and having much more concrete/better bullet timing, as well as having the skill advantage since iirc, Wolverine's skill level leaves a lot to be desired. Add onto to that Ajax's powers and durability feats and It'll take a proper blow to the brain to truly put Ajax down.

All this duelling with Ajax will give Natasha more than enough time to go for a widow bite, to which repeated exposure should be able to KO Logan. This should be the easier part of the mission, and I think you can see why.

Conclusion:

  1. Widow has the stealth and gear to make sure Martha is safe whilst taking out goons
  2. Ajax's speed, weaponry and skill will allow him to comfortably murder any fodder in one-shot
  3. Wolverine will lose due to Ajax's perks and Natasha's toolkit being his downfall.
Your turn now.
Your turn now.
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#24 Edited by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2645 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Edited by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio

Counters

Ajax Counters

Now before we get into general stats, we should go over what makes Ajax special, that being his powers that he obtained which not only give him confirmed superhuman reflexes, but also the ability to not feel pain, giving his durability a nice boost which I'll discuss later.

Although the treatment enhanced his reflexes and scorched his nerve endings so that he no longer feels pain, this does not in fact enhance his durability. He is just as susceptible to being shot or stabbed as any regular human.

Now whilst strength isn't exactly Ajax's forte, he's still capable of some decently impressive feats, such as this one where whilst stuck in a choke hold, throws Deadpool quite a fair distance. Though fortunately, the Adamantium weapons will make this all the more noteworthy for Ajax,

This feat and his other strengths feats are definitely impressive, but not too important when the mercenaries will be most likely shooting at him rather than engaging him in pure H2H. Additionally, Wolverine has much more impressive strength feats:

Lifts 2 armoured men over himself and tosses them a few feet away
Lifts 2 armoured men over himself and tosses them a few feet away
Sends Sabretooth flying
Sends Sabretooth flying
KOs Sabretooth with a punch
KOs Sabretooth with a punch
Rips apart Silver Samurai's ADAMANTIUM armour
Rips apart Silver Samurai's ADAMANTIUM armour
Blob gets staggered from head butting Wolverine, then Wolverine KOs him with an elbow
Blob gets staggered from head butting Wolverine, then Wolverine KOs him with an elbow
Uses a dirt bike as a blunt object to hit someone with
Uses a dirt bike as a blunt object to hit someone with

Wolverine has Ajax beat in the strength department.

In terms of durability that comes with Ajax;'s powers, in his final fight with Wade he survived getting a sword right through the chest, and was ready to fight shortly after. Super impressive which will make it so that the only way to really put Ajax down is a hit to the brain.

This isn't durability though, this is all a result of his pain tolerance. Durability would be the sword not penetrating him. Although he wouldn't feel himself getting shot, stabbed, hit, etc., they would still have an effect on his body. Any lethal wound (heart, lungs, brain, etc.) would still take him out. Pain tolerance can only help you if the wounds are minor. Being stabbed through the chest and continuing to fight is impressive but it is likely no major organs were hit, which is why he could keep fighting for a short time afterwards. Since his actual durability is human-level, any hits from bullets, knives, or Wolverine's claws will go straight through him.

And in terms of speed, this is undoubtedly what Ajax's best category is, having a legitimate bullet timing feat whilst on a high speed motorcycle, damn impressive stuff for this tier.

This isn't a very clear-cut bullet timing feat because he is on a moving motorcycle. He isn't a still target dodging the bullet(s) based solely on his own speed. The motorcycle moving could have affected Deadpool's accuracy and made it easier for Ajax to lean slightly and dodge the two bullets.

Wolverine isn't the most impressive when it comes to speed, but he did dodge a missile after it was fired

No Caption Provided

Wolverine has also contended with fast opponents such as Sabretooth, Beast, Lady Deathstrike, Mystique, AND Weapon XI (Barakapool), who has an even more impressive feat of deflecting a **** ton of automatic gunfire with his katanas:

No Caption Provided

Moving on.

Black Widow Counters

For a quick strength feat, here's Natasha Clearly staggering Bucky with a strong punch, meaning that a strong hit will certainly do some damage.

This happened right after Bucky got hit by Tony's sonic blast and light pulse, so he was already somewhat disoriented beforehand. Also, Natasha was only able to land those hits because Sharon went in before her and distracted Bucky. Lastly, that punch looked to be a groin shot, which would stagger most men people. Bucky then proceeded to completely out brawl Natasha and almost kill her.

This can't be used as a consistent measure of Natasha's strength as we have seen Bucky tank much more without staggering at all, such as hits from Captain America and Iron Man.

As for speed, a good showcase was when Natasha avoided a Grenade launcher after being fired, then flipping between all of the cars and gunfire and escape safely. Pretty solid stuff.

This is also an impressive set of feats for Natasha, but she lacks any clear-cut bullet timing feats from the MCU movies. Her speed is above the mercenaries for sure, but not superior to Wolverine's if we take scaling feats into account.

And in regards to skill, despite being ambushed and having the lower stat gap, Natasha pretty evidently outskills Crossbones here and would've won had his pain tolerance not be so high. And considering Crossbones could tango with Cap, this is pretty impressive.

Crossbones has slightly inferior stats than Cap and he is nowhere near as skilled. Crossbones disarmed Cap of his shield, took him by surprise, and sent him flying twice with punches. Without his main weapon and after having been sent flying twice, Cap then held the upper hand against Crossbones in H2H and would have won if not for his suicide attempt.

As for Natasha, she was completely owned in that fight:

Yeah she was taken by surprise, but Crossbones no sold all of her attacks, including her Widow Bite, and then tossed her into the tank. He wasn't fighting to his fullest too based on the fact that he chose to toss her in the tank and drop a grenade on her instead of beat/stab her.

Cap > Crossbones > Natasha

She might be slightly more skilled than Wolverine and she has the gear advantage, but she is outclassed in every other stat.

Step 1 Counters

Now the thing abut Batman being able to stealth hs way into the arena, is that afaik, beyond this scene I don't remember any stealth feats really worth a damn for Bruce, allowing Natahsa, somehow who can already sneak up on in-humans like Loki (note that despite Loki's snarky demeanour, it's clear that Natasha did sneak up on Loki) the ability to use her stealth skills to snag some KOs with her toolkit.

Natasha has a few impressive stealth feats, but so does Batman:

Appears out of nowhere (removes the warden and guard in the span of a few seconds as well)...
Appears out of nowhere (removes the warden and guard in the span of a few seconds as well)...

***Note: Lex was imprisoned in Belle Reve, a supermax prison that houses some of the world's most dangerous prisoners, including the Suicide Squad***

...then disappears (the guard & warden are nowhere to be seen)
...then disappears (the guard & warden are nowhere to be seen)
So stealthy that the mercs think he is behind the door when he is in fact below the floor
So stealthy that the mercs think he is behind the door when he is in fact below the floor

Disappears from Gordon within 3 seconds. Even The Flash didn't notice Batman, Diana, and Cyborg had disappeared.
Disappears from Gordon within 3 seconds. Even The Flash didn't notice Batman, Diana, and Cyborg had disappeared.

Batman was within the cop's field of vision (a few feet away from the chained-up dude) but wasn't even noticed
Batman was within the cop's field of vision (a few feet away from the chained-up dude) but wasn't even noticed
With the help of a smoke bomb, he was able to trick Superman and appear behind him
With the help of a smoke bomb, he was able to trick Superman and appear behind him

Ajax has like no stealth feats, and I would argue that Batman's stealth feats are superior to Natasha's. Neither Ajax nor Natasha could replicate Batman's level of stealth.

A quick pair of smoke bombs and a couple of headshots from her pistol should be more than enough to secure some quick kills (Natahsa's never really had any true qualms about killing those she knows are enemies, so she should be willing to at the very least leave them incapacitated and ready for a one-punch KO). After-which Natasha will tell Martha to stay where she is and wait until all of the other enemies have been defeated before they reach the exit.

I can believe that Natasha could stealth her way through and take out the 3 mercs standing over Martha, but I'm not entirely convinced Ajax would remain unnoticed. Keep in mind that Ajax also spawns with Natasha in the warehouse and the guards are already on high-alert.

Now behind enemy lines, this gives Natasha another chance to stay behind the enemy and take out some enemies, with her Widow bites in particular being incredibly efficient at taking groups of mooks out in a single go.

Fair enough, but this would only work if they group up.

And now comes Ajax's role in this section, which will be that once Natasha starts taking on some mooks there will obviously be some noise, which is when Ajax busts through the front doors whilst the fodder are distracted, ready to mop the flow with all of them via his speed, skill and adamantium weaponry. And with both soldiers on both ends of the battlefield, it shouldn't take long for the guards to be wiped off the face of the earth, allowing the duo to take Martha home easy as pie.

The moment Natasha takes out the 3 mercs guarding Martha, the noise will put all of the them on super high alert and make them much more trigger-happy.

And now comes Ajax's role in this section, which will be that once Natasha starts taking on some mooks there will obviously be some noise, which is when Ajax busts through the front doors whilst the fodder are distracted, ready to mop the flow with all of them via his speed, skill and adamantium weaponry. And with both soldiers on both ends of the battlefield, it shouldn't take long for the guards to be wiped off the face of the earth, allowing the duo to take Martha home easy as pie.

As stated in my opener, Ajax spawns with Natasha inside the warehouse.

Batman was against a similar number of mercs and he was constantly getting shot, stabbed and hit. The only reason he survived was because of his gear. Ajax doesn't have that. Bullets and knife wounds will still do damage to him, especially headshots, which even Batman was a victim of. Having Batman's skill is useful, but his biggest advantage was his gear.

Step 2 Counters

After that, let's focus on The Wolverine, and whilst he might be quite intimidating, he shouldn't be anything my team can't beat in a 2v1. It will be a simple case of Ajax keeping Wolverine busy and doing the brawling whilst Natasha goes for a electric tase for the win.

It won't be as easy as you make it out to be.

In terms of stats, whilst I'll admit neither of my character swill last long against adamantium blades, Ajax's weapons being coated in the same metal should make it simple for him to clash with Logan, which combined with his superior strength should make him generally hit harder. And in regards to speed, Ajax can certainly hold his own, being able to tango with Deadpool and having much more concrete/better bullet timing, as well as having the skill advantage since iirc, Wolverine's skill level leaves a lot to be desired. Add onto to that Ajax's powers and durability feats and It'll take a proper blow to the brain to truly put Ajax down.

I already proved how Wolverine's strength and durability are far superior than Ajax's, and his speed and skill aren't anything to scoff at. Also keep in mind that Wolverine is bloodlusted. Ajax might be skilled when comparing him to Deadpool, but Wolverine has tons of fodder feats (from Yakuza to ninjas to SWAT to cops to mutants) as well as fights against several established opponents who are more skilled than Ajax, i.e. Lady Deathstrike, Mystique, etc. One slash to Natasha and she is done for, and one good swipe to Ajax's limbs or head and he is also done for.

All this duelling with Ajax will give Natasha more than enough time to go for a widow bite, to which repeated exposure should be able to KO Logan. This should be the easier part of the mission, and I think you can see why.

Easier said than done. Wolverine has some insane damage soak, durability, and a healing factor. Other than his many blunt and piercing durability feats, he has tanked a nuke, explosions, and disintegration by the Phoenix. More relevant to our fight, he has this:

Unaffected by 3 tranquilizers
Unaffected by 3 tranquilizers

And this:

*Starts at 1:24*

After having been poisoned, resulting in his healing factor being severely weakened, he remained conscious and managed to fight back. He dodges a bullet (while hallucinating), gets pushed off the building, tanks 2 tasers and gets shot in the head. And he's totally fine. That's from a weakened healing factor. He has tanked worse but this is more relevant because of the two tasers.

Conclusion

Widow has the stealth and gear to make sure Martha is safe whilst taking out goons

The stealth remains to be seen, and you'll have to showcase her gear a bit more.

Ajax's speed, weaponry and skill will allow him to comfortably murder any fodder in one-shot

His speed isn't that great and his skill (i.e. Batman's skill) wasn't really addressed, so his only advantage is his adamantium axes.

Wolverine will lose due to Ajax's perks and Natasha's toolkit being his downfall.

The issue with adamantium axes is that Ajax needs the strength to actually do any damage to Wolverine, and continue to do damage until his healing factor can't keep up. You'll also have to show why he can't tank Natasha's gear.

You'll have to provide more feats, arguments, and counters to what I presented in order to justify your strategy for saving Martha, and how you could take down a bloodlusted Wolverine.

Your move, and good luck!

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#27 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2645 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Just so I know before starting my post now, should I follow standard CaV ethics and not post any new scans given this'll be our final post, or can I get away with posting new scans?

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#29 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Just so I know before starting my post now, should I follow standard CaV ethics and not post any new scans given this'll be our final post, or can I get away with posting new scans?

You can post new scans

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#30 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2645 posts) - - Show Bio

Counter Post: Assault on Warehouse

No Caption Provided

Ajax:

Although the treatment enhanced his reflexes and scorched his nerve endings so that he no longer feels pain, this does not in fact enhance his durability. He is just as susceptible to being shot or stabbed as any regular human.

A true statement, but this still allows Ajax to stay in the game far longer than any human could ever do.

This feat and his other strengths feats are definitely impressive, but not too important when the mercenaries will be most likely shooting at him rather than engaging him in pure H2H.

Fair enough, but it's not as if Ajax is strictly forced to just walk at people and swing his axes at them.

Deadpool
Deadpool

He has shown the ability to throw his axes, which combined with the skill of the Bat, should allow him to get some good ol' fashioned headshots, quickly chipping away at the numbers. Not that given Deadpool's bullet timer status, this feat shouldn't really be seen as an anti-feat worth anything, if anything it's a buff of Ajax, given how he was able to go toe-to-toe with Wade.

Additionally, Wolverine has much more impressive strength feats: Wolverine has Ajax beat in the strength department.

Not gonna go over every strength feat you posted, but I'll say that whilst I'll concede the general strength advantage, this isn't enough to say that Ajax can't at least contend for a bit in this regard.

This isn't durability though, this is all a result of his pain tolerance. Durability would be the sword not penetrating him. Although he wouldn't feel himself getting shot, stabbed, hit, etc., they would still have an effect on his body. Any lethal wound (heart, lungs, brain, etc.) would still take him out. Pain tolerance can only help you if the wounds are minor. Being stabbed through the chest and continuing to fight is impressive but it is likely no major organs were hit, which is why he could keep fighting for a short time afterwards.

I mean, he got stabbed through the heart and was fine (you cans see the sword going through that area), and I don't know how you can get any more fatal than an attack like that.

Since his actual durability is human-level, any hits from bullets, knives, or Wolverine's claws will go straight through him.

More than enough to not only not be bothered by anything that isn't a headshot from the fodder, and more than enough tolerance to keep Wolverine busy.

This isn't a very clear-cut bullet timing feat because he is on a moving motorcycle. He isn't a still target dodging the bullet(s) based solely on his own speed. The motorcycle moving could have affected Deadpool's accuracy and made it easier for Ajax to lean slightly and dodge the two bullets.

Well I'd disagree on his for a multitude of factors, but mainly that:

A. Ajax was moving in straight line (at least for the first shot), not really moving in any crazy directions, making the bike factor not really much of a factor,

B. either way he still clearly dodged after the bullet was fired, so he could still react to a bullet even if it'd miss him,

Deadpool
Deadpool

And C. Deadpool's isn't a bad marksmen, not by a long shot, as shown above, so saying the motorcycle screwed him up this level seems a bit hard to truly say.

Wolverine isn't the most impressive when it comes to speed, but he did dodge a missile after it was fired

This shouldn't be enough to truly outpace Ajax, as at best this would put him at about the same speeds, given his feats and who Ajax scales too.

Wolverine has also contended with fast opponents such as Sabretooth, Beast, Lady Deathstrike, Mystique, AND Weapon XI (Barakapool), who has an even more impressive feat of deflecting a **** ton of automatic gunfire with his katanas:

To say that Wolverine is on people like Barakapool's level isn't exactly fair, given how, particularly in Wade's case, feels a bit iffy a best.

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Sticking with the Barakapool example, This clip clearly demonstrates that Logan was pretty overwhelmed in terms of speed, especially in the latter 2 parts of what we see.

Black Widow:

This happened right after Bucky got hit by Tony's sonic blast and light pulse, so he was already somewhat disoriented beforehand.

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Not really, dude shrugged both off like it was nothing and was 1v1ing Tony without any issue, so it was hardly a factor, if at all.

Also, Natasha was only able to land those hits because Sharon went in before her and distracted Bucky.

Fair enough, but this was a strength feat showing, not a speed or skill feat, so not relevant to my point.

Lastly, that punch looked to be a groin shot, which would stagger most men people. Bucky then proceeded to completely out brawl Natasha and almost kill her.

Credit to Anthp2000's Respect Thread
Credit to Anthp2000's Respect Thread

Not really true, given how a frame-by-frame analysis shows that Natasha only really hit Bucky's leg, not so-much groin.

This can't be used as a consistent measure of Natasha's strength as we have seen Bucky tank much more without staggering at all, such as hits from Captain America and Iron Man.

Even without this feat, Natasha's plenty strong in her own right.

Avengers
Avengers

Take the instant for her KOing Hawkeye, the guy who can take Quicksilver's Ultron Bot destroying punches (as you should know, said bots are bulletproof), and whilst you can argue their's some context regarding Loki, this is still impressive all the same. So even disregarding the Bucky feat, Natahsa still has more than enough feats to one-shot any common thug.

This is also an impressive set of feats for Natasha, but she lacks any clear-cut bullet timing feats from the MCU movies. Her speed is above the mercenaries for sure, but not superior to Wolverine's if we take scaling feats into account.

2 things to consider with that:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Captain America: Civil War

First comes that, as shown earlier, she can be scaled to Hawkeye and his infamous duel with Black Panther, the most clear-cut bullet timer in the MCU.

Avengers: Black Widow Strikes #1
Avengers: Black Widow Strikes #1

And in the tie-in comics, so even has some pretty solid bullet dodging, so all in all saying she's at least close to bullet timing levels isn't infallible in the slightest.

Crossbones has slightly inferior stats than Cap and he is nowhere near as skilled. Crossbones disarmed Cap of his shield, took him by surprise, and sent him flying twice with punches. Without his main weapon and after having been sent flying twice, Cap then held the upper hand against Crossbones in H2H and would have won if not for his suicide attempt. As for Natasha, she was completely owned in that fight: Yeah she was taken by surprise, but Crossbones no sold all of her attacks, including her Widow Bite, and then tossed her into the tank. He wasn't fighting to his fullest too based on the fact that he chose to toss her in the tank and drop a grenade on her instead of beat/stab her.

She would've won that fight if it weren't for Crossbones' pain tolerance, otherwise that Widow Bite would've done him in, and he clearly won through sheer physical dominance, not skill.

She might be slightly more skilled than Wolverine and she has the gear advantage, but she is outclassed in every other stat.

That's all I need her to be.

Step 1:

Natasha has a few impressive stealth feats, but so does Batman:

Not gonna go through all of these, but none of these really dictate to me that Widow can't stealth round in at least a similar manner to Bruce. Honestly to me a lot of those feats were actually very in line with the fat of sneaking up on Loki (namely the 1st, 2nd and 4th gifs), expect those were on regular joes compared to an Asgardian like Loki, making it much more impressive. And as the ones on the super-humans, with regarding Superman, he required gear to help hid from him, and clearly couldn't have done that naturally (something Natasha didn't need for Loki), and as much as it's kind of a done-to-death argument, Flash's lack of experience is pretty clear in that scene, so it's hard to truly be that impressive.

Ajax has like no stealth feats, and I would argue that Batman's stealth feats are superior to Natasha's. Neither Ajax nor Natasha could replicate Batman's level of stealth.

So long as he keeps quiet and only engages when the start to realise Natasha's there, it should be fine. If need be he can start a little early, and Natahsa can still work around it via stealth kills.

I can believe that Natasha could stealth her way through and take out the 3 mercs standing over Martha, but I'm not entirely convinced Ajax would remain unnoticed. Keep in mind that Ajax also spawns with Natasha in the warehouse and the guards are already on high-alert.

I mean if need be, he can fulfil the role of a distraction as well should he be spotted, as you've mentioned all the guards are split up across the entire warehouse, so it's not like they are all going to immediately dog-pile on Ajax and make it a 15v1, and I doubt the 3 by Martha will move regardless, so at most it'd be like 5 opponents at a time, to which the skill of the Bat, plus adamantium weapons should be enough to kill every mook crazy fast, giving Natasha breathing room to continue what she does best.

Fair enough, but this would only work if they group up.

Not necessarily what I was going for, my idea was to have the duo seperated the whole time, not so much them 2v1ing a large group.

The moment Natasha takes out the 3 mercs guarding Martha, the noise will put all of the them on super high alert and make them much more trigger-happy.

And they'll hear which guards get taken out and likely meet up at that location, giving Ajax the opportunity to get the jump on them and start cutting them down to pieces.

As stated in my opener, Ajax spawns with Natasha inside the warehouse.

Makes Natasha's job even easier, doubt t'll take more than a minute and a half's time, absolute tops.

Batman was against a similar number of mercs and he was constantly getting shot, stabbed and hit. The only reason he survived was because of his gear. Ajax doesn't have that. Bullets and knife wounds will still do damage to him, especially headshots, which even Batman was a victim of. Having Batman's skill is useful, but his biggest advantage was his gear.

Ajax is also faster, as more than enough pain tolerance to last, and weapons which makes things much easier for him to one-shot every opponent he comes into contact with.

Step 2:

I already proved how Wolverine's strength and durability are far superior than Ajax's, and his speed and skill aren't anything to scoff at.

Strength yeah, but you haven't posted a single durability feat, so I don't have much to compare, speed's at worst roughly the same.

Also keep in mind that Wolverine is bloodlusted. Ajax might be skilled when comparing him to Deadpool, but Wolverine has tons of fodder feats (from Yakuza to ninjas to SWAT to cops to mutants) as well as fights against several established opponents who are more skilled than Ajax, i.e. Lady Deathstrike, Mystique, etc.

Again, no feats provided, but with what I've seen, Bats seems to be Logan's superior in skill

Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice
Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice

As you should be aware of, being able to fend off 4 mooks at once, which of whom were handpicked by Luthor himself. should be a better skill feat than anything Logan's shown, with this being stacked on top of Ajax's inherent skill.

One slash to Natasha and she is done for, and one good swipe to Ajax's limbs or head and he is also done for.

Gonna have to plow through Ajax fist, and he'll be stacked full off Widow Bites by the time that happens.

Easier said than done. Wolverine has some insane damage soak, durability, and a healing factor. Other than his many blunt and piercing durability feats, he has tanked a nuke, explosions, and disintegration by the Phoenix.

As you mentioned, this isn't all that relevant to my plan, I have no intention of winning this via killing Logan, I'm winning via incapacitation.

After having been poisoned, resulting in his healing factor being severely weakened, he remained conscious and managed to fight back. He dodges a bullet (while hallucinating), gets pushed off the building, tanks 2 tasers and gets shot in the head. And he's totally fine. That's from a weakened healing factor. He has tanked worse but this is more relevant because of the two tasers.

The lack of a link makes this hard to judge from my perspective, but the only part of this that really matters to me are the tasers, as that seems to be Logan's resistance to electricity, and quite frankly that won't be enough.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Captain America: Civil War

Natasha's bites are strong enough to incapacitate the like of Black Panther even through the suit, so naturally it's way stronger than some taser, and should still be enough to overpower Logan's tolerance with enough pressure applied.

Conclusion:

The stealth remains to be seen, and you'll have to showcase her gear a bit more.

I've shown that Batman's stealth isn't as great as what Natasha has shown to be able to pull off, most of Bruce's best feats against non-regular dudes have some level of context to them.

His speed isn't that great and his skill (i.e. Batman's skill) wasn't really addressed, so his only advantage is his adamantium axes.

I've addressed batman's skill above, and those Weapons will do wonders in letting Ajax keep Wolverine busy, remember, Ajax's goal is not to 1v1 Wolverine and win, but to keep him distracted from Natasha's gear and leave Logan vulnerable. he may die in the process, but by that point he's fulfilled his role.

The issue with adamantium axes is that Ajax needs the strength to actually do any damage to Wolverine, and continue to do damage until his healing factor can't keep up. You'll also have to show why he can't tank Natasha's gear.

With no really relevant durability feats provided, Ajax can still do some good damage with his axes, even if he can't outright kill him.

You'll have to provide more feats, arguments, and counters to what I presented in order to justify your strategy for saving Martha, and how you could take down a bloodlusted Wolverine.

I like to think I've justified my case.

Time To Finish This.
Time To Finish This.
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#31 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2645 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Edited by DiarrheaRegatta (5170 posts) - - Show Bio

Voting for @geekryan because of two decent reasons-

A. Don't see the team working together at all. This means that there's really no room for coordination, because it seems more likely that Ajax will start doing his own thing simply due to his nature. I don't see them in character as a coherent team, which messes up the battle plan quite a bit.

B. Don't see them fighting off Logan. Geek did a poor job in some areas (barely any durability feats) but I don't buy them clearing him.

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#36 Posted by Chronicplane (9182 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2645 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio

bump for votes

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#39 Posted by Chronicplane (9182 posts) - - Show Bio

This was an interesting debate, as initially entering this thread I didn't expect it to turn into a scenario v player battle. This being said ultimately my vote is gonna go to @gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps as I feel he further proved that his team would be capable of saving Martha and holding off the boss. @geekryan did show that Wolverine did hold the stat advantage and has demonstrated he "could very well take Ajax out however didn't quiet convince me it was enough to completely wipe out Ajax nor did I feel he truly debunked gilga's team IC, as his opponents strategy for his characters isn't exactly overly complicated(basically a massive brawler/distraction and a stealth operator/support) and was able to prove that even if Ajax did blow there cover it would still work out in the world.

Good debate I'd say overall.

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#40 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio
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#42 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

Apologies for not voting on this earlier - I completely forgot about it after the initial tag.

I thought this was an interesting debate, as it was a team vs a scenario - and generally it was a good debate. Both debaters argued well, particularly in the stealth sections and the first part of the scenario, against the mercs. Ultimately I was convinced by @gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps that the team could probably clear the mercs, having good enough feats in both stealth and other departments even if Ajax leads to them getting spotted early. I do think that him having both the first and last post gave him a bit of an advantage over @geekryan though, as he had an extra round of counters. Strong debating on this front though from both participants.

The debate got a little messier on the Wolverine front, in two ways. First of all, there were issues with the arguments on Widow's electric gear. GR apparently had an electricity resistance feat for Wolverine, but a link wasn't provided (or if it was then I can't see it) so I can't really judge that. GTPTEAP (long acronym) using the Black Panther feat to show that her weapons are powerful enough to take down Logan felt problematic - Vibranium logically should conduct electricity, and between Panther and Vision it has been consistently shown as vulnerable to it. There were better feats available, like her taking down Chitauri or men in electrically insulated body armour.

And the other aspects of the Wolverine debate is where it got weird. GR focussed a lot on stats, strength and regeneration but presented little in the way of skill feats. He made some assertions, like Wolverine beating people more skilled than Ajax, without showing why they were more skilled than him. He mentioned feats of Wolverine's without linking them or showing gifs of them. GTPTEAP suffered from the opposite issue - plenty of skill feats and good analysis of them, but little in the way of stats (durability in particular was really lacking). This could have been helped if either debater showed why one category was more important than the other, but this didn't really happen so we were left with one case about certain categories and another about others without much explanation as to which was more important, making it quite hard to judge.

Ultimately though, I'd give my vote to @gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps. I felt like the skill feats he did present were enough to show that Logan would be beaten, even if there wasn't too much clarity surrounding the healing factor and electric weapons.

Sorry if a lot of this post sounds negative BTW - I did think it was a good debate, particularly in the sections that didn't focus on the Wolverine part of the scenario. :)

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#44 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by Chronicplane (9182 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#46 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio

Gilgamesh: 2

Geekryan: 1

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#48 Edited by Subline (8393 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote goes to @gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps.

He / She successful convinced me that:

  • Natasha's Stealth will be a perfect counter to rescuing Martha undetected.
  • Ajax's Superhuman Stats & Skill will mean that the fodder can't really do much if anything.
  • Ajax has a strength, speed and skill advantage over Wolverine as well as Adamantium weaponry, he can more than hold him off and can have the upper hand, plus Widow is there to clean up using her gadgets.
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#49 Posted by Subline (8393 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio

Gilgamesh: 3

Geekryan: 1

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