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#1 Edited by geekryan (4722 posts) - - Show Bio

@chronicplane

Characters:

  • X2 Nightcrawler
  • MCU Hawkeye

Perks:

  • Morals Off (10)
  • 1 hour of prep anywhere (4)
  • 1 hour of prep on battlefield (1)
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
No Caption Provided

@jsdoctor

Characters:

  • CW R'as al Ghul
  • Blade

Perks:

  • Adamantium Weapon (10) - Blade
  • Mind Link (5)
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Tournament Rules

  • FOX characters are composite (with one exception: Nightcrawler)
  • Feats from tie-in comics are allowed
  • Standard Gear (i.e. regularly uses the gear)
  • Victory by KO, death, or incap only
  • Everyone is in character but determined to win
  • Characters keep the knowledge they already have
  • Character personalities/history are a factor (i.e. Green Arrow and Prometheus will NOT get along if on the same team)
  • All bow/arrow characters come with a quiver of 20 standard arrows, 2 grappling hook arrows, 1 ensnaring net arrow, and 1 flashbang arrow
  • All guns are fully loaded but with no extra ammo or clips
  • Agents of SHIELD characters have their ICERS replaced with handguns (if it is standard for them)
  • No time manipulation of any kind will be allowed (i.e. from Eva Sharpe and Rip Hunter)
  • With prep, each individual character still needs to lose a majority to MCU Captain America in a 1v1 fight
  • Prep takes place in a combined universe
  • If you choose a gear perk for a character that has never used the gear, they will not automatically have mastery over the gear
  • No outside help is allowed into the battlefield (AKA you can't bring in fodder or other characters from prep)
  • 3 posts each with a 14 day limit per post. You will be bumped after 7 days. Extensions may be allowed if you tell me and your opponent before the 14 day limit is over.
  • Link to the tournament

Voting Rules

  • Only the two participants are allowed to debate
  • If you want to be tagged to vote at the end, say "T4V"
  • Vote for whoever was the best debater, or who convinced you more, not for which team you think would win
  • Make sure to provide reasoning for your vote
  • Votes based on obvious character bias will not be counted
  • Be respectful, honourable, and civil

Battlefield

Starting distance is 100 feet. Out of view from the other team. Opposite sides of a dark warehouse. Assume that the height of the warehouse is 100 feet.

No Caption Provided

Best of luck!

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#3 Posted by Chronicplane (9182 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor Ah sweet your my opponent, so do you want me to go first since I have prep?

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#4 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

@chronicplane: Sounds like a good idea. I won't be able to start working on my post until Monday anyway, so feel free to take your time.

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#5 Edited by Chronicplane (9182 posts) - - Show Bio

Hawkeye and Nightcrawler: The Veteran Predators

Hawks and Reptiles join forces
Hawks and Reptiles join forces
Loading Video...
OverviewHawkeyeNightcrawler
Age:30s20-30s
First Appearance:Thor: IX-men: II
Affiliation:Shield(formerly), AvengersX-men
Created by:MCUFOX
Powers/Abilities
  • Superhuman agility and reflexes
  • Unparalleled marksmanship
  • Teleportation

Greatest Marksman on The Planet: Hawkeye

"Really? I retire for, what, like 5 minutes? And it all goes to shit."

Bio:

Clint Barton former agent of S.H.I.E.L.D went on to become apart of the avengers, You probably know the rest so I won't waste anymore time. Hawkeye while being one of shields most skilled fighters, his true specialty lies within his Marksmanship. Being recognized as the greatest marksman on the planet, Clint's preferred choice of weaponry is his Bow and Arrows, equipped with a wide variety of arrows and an eye for never missing a shot. Clint will make for an excellent long ranged fighter of the team.

Powers/Abilities of the Hawk:

Hawkeye will be playing the range game, sticking to his specialties. Although he is good in almost any other situation.

  • Expert-Mastery in Marksmanship
  • Peak human physicals
  • Master hand to hand combatant

Equipment:

  • Bow and Arrows
  • Batons
  • Bo-Staff

The Jumpster of The X-men: Nightcrawler

My name is Kurt Wagner, but in the Munich Circus I was known as the Incredible Nightcrawler!

Bio:

Nightcrawler (also known as Kurt) was founded by the X-men, admittedly there isn't much to really say. He's a reptile boi with teleportation.

Powers/Abilities of the Reptile:

Nightcrawler will be playing the CQC/scout game, abusing his teleportation to his advantage. Will elaborate later on his role.

  • Superhuman agility and reflexes
  • Teleportation
  • Reptile like physique

Quick Overview: Morals off

Pretty self explanatory really, this will make so my team will not be actively holding back. This means all forms of kill moves are now applicable.

Prep Time: I (1 Hour prep anywhere)

For the start of my prep time it will take place at S.H.I.E.L.D headquarters and retrieve weapons and gear for himself and his partner Nightcrawler. Although there isn't really any feats for shield having arrows it's perfectly feasible that they would considering they have all of the advanced weapons on the planet(things such as the destroyer prototype) and if they have all forms of modern day and advance fire arms on the planet I don't think it would be hard to find arrows. Not only that, but shield would most likely keep such weapons in storage(considering they keep weapons that date to WWII, that also includes Hydra weapons).

Thor: I
Thor: I

Now this brings up the question, would they allow Clint to do this, the answer, yes. Clint has been a member of shield for years(if not decades) and has been one of there most trusted, resourceful and skilled elite agents.

With that said, Clint will retrieve the following weapons and equipment for his team:

  • Recurve Bow
    • Bo Staff Function
  • Collapsible Baton
    • Twin Batons
  • Quiver
    • Conventional Arrows
    • Specialized Trick Arrows
      • Explosive Arrows(tho the ones he used against BP, due to tourney restrictions)
      • Electricity Arrows
      • Thermal Arrows
      • Burst Arrows
      • Shockwave/pulse Arrows
      • Hacking Arrows
      • Grappling Hook Arrows
      • Scatter Arrows
      • Smokescreen Arrows
      • Trap Arrows(explosive and electric)
      • EMP Arrows
  • Combat Dagger
  • P30 Gun

Clint should be packed full of all his powers top to bottom(bar large explosives), this should make him far more versatile and flexible with his tool kit.

No Caption Provided
  • TOP - Night Vision Goggles x1
  • BOTTOM LEFT - Bullet Proof Vest x2
  • BOTTOM RIGHT - Ear Pieces x2

Alongside all of his arrows, Clint will also gather a set of ear pieces and bullet proof vests for himself and Kurt for communications and extra protection.

Clint will also equip himself with a pair of night vision goggles(TOP) for the mission.

This is all for now so it's a start.

Prep Time: II (1 Hour on Battlefield)

After gathering all of the equipment from shield is complete, Clint and Kurt will make there way to the battlefield with an additional hour of prep time. During prep on the battlefield my team will get use of knowing each other and devising a formulation plan/strategy of taking down your team.

Clint Barton will start by setting up various traps all around the compound with his sticky arrows, the same type he used in Civil War.

Captain America: Civil War
Captain America: Civil War

It will be something similar to this except there will be a few differences, the arrows will be packed full of explosives but there will also be taser arrows as a means of immobilizing your characters. For some context, these taser arrows were the same type that temperately immobilized Vision. Now these arrows could've very well have been specially designed for Vision however Clint isn't unfamiliar with electric arrows, as another example he's even used one to incap Wanda(also shows as an impressive reaction feat).

While these types of arrows are unlikely to finish of your team they should at the very least disorientate them, leaving them wide open for attack and initially caught by the element of surprise. (will elaborate on later)

The blue circle is where Kurt will teleport Clint
The blue circle is where Kurt will teleport Clint

Finally, to wrap things up with prep Kurt will teleport Clint up onto on of the high beams of the warehouse, this will allow for Clint to utilize his range and marksmanship advantage to a great degree. This shouldn't be difficult at all for Kurt seeing as he's been capable of teleporting people from hundreds of feet in distance.

X-men: II
X-men: II

So transporting Clint up to the sealing won't be an issue, with that said let's go over a quick recap on my prep.

  • Clint gathers gear/equipment for himself and Kurt
  • Team devises a formative plan/strategy of taking your team down
  • Various explosive/electric traps are set across the location
  • Kurt teleports Clint to the sealing, high beams

This is just a start for now.

Entering the Battle/How I Think the Fight Will Play Out:

The way I plan to make this battle play out is as follows:

The fight will begin with Hawkeye camping(like a Hawk) on top of the high beams within the compound(as pictured) while Nightcrawler will also stick on the side beams, keeping out of sight of the enemy team until the moment is just right. The team will also be staying in contact via ear pieces and Hawkeye utilizing his extreme eye sight and night vision goggles to pin point your team.

Enemy team(Ghul and Blade) will enter the compound with my team on stand by, until all the hidden traps set up by Hawkeye will be detonated, Ghul and Blade completely caught by the element of surprise and disoriented will be wide open for Kurt to strike by using his momentum and striking power to send your most intimidating/threat looking character flying which will be Blade, now from what I know Kurt's kick won't knock out Blade it should still send him flying and knocked down for a short period of time which will be more than enough for my plan to work. Right after the kick Kurt will teleport right back onto the disorientated Ghul(still recovering from the traps) and tele-drop him dozens of feet into the air.

X-men II
X-men II

Now can Kurt do all of this, Yes. As you can see his teleportation is instantaneous. He should be easily capable of tele-kicking Blade and teleport straight to Ghul right after for a nice tele-drop. Plus, as you can see he easily sends full grown men flying with his momentum kicking power, so sending Blade of his feat shouldn't be an issue. But for reinsurance Hawkeye won't just be standing on the beams, as soon as Blade is knocked off his feat Hawkeye will fire smokescreen, explosive and net arrows to keep Blade down and injure him.

Avengers; Age of Ultron
Avengers; Age of Ultron

Clint as shown above should be most certainly capable of firing of multiple arrows at extremely fast speeds, In fact he fires off exactly 3 arrows in 1.9 seconds and it's even implied he could go faster.

Now can Kurt tele-drop Ghul, Yes thanks to the morals off perk his religious and pacifism ways will be completely nullified for this battle and seeing as he's been a master of teleportation for years, knowing of it's capabilities and after discussing a formulation plan with Hawkeye to take down your characters, there's no reason why Kurt wouldn't utilize tele-dropping in this scenario.

With the helpless Ghul falling and Blade temp knocked down and bombarded with multiple arrows headed for him, Clint will fire of scatter arrows targeted right for Ghul.

Captain America: Civil War
Captain America: Civil War

Now there is no way Ghul is avoiding all of these arrows headed for him while falling dozens of feat, If even one hits him he's good as dead and seeing as Hawkeye is the greatest marksman on the planet he should be certainly capable of accomplishing this.

No Caption Provided

This just leaves Blade, that as far as I can tell is very easily except-able to piercing and electric weapons. Fortunately, Hawkeye has the best of both worlds with his electric arrows and pretty much anything else.

This is all for now, will elaborate on my plan/strategy later on the debate.

Conclusion:

  • Clint and Kurt have the element of surprise and your team won't be prepared to deal with all the traps planted by Clint
  • My team has prep time over yours, which means we will be more prepared and the team will be amped with a but tone of gear thanks to prep.
  • Morals off means both Clint and Kurt won't be actively holding back, nor will there morals intervene. Each shot, strike and action will be to go for the kill.
  • Clint has your team beat in range/versatility and marksmanship, you simply have no way to reach him from the high beams while in contrast he can easily bombard you with arrows left and right.
  • You have no counter towards Kurts instantaneous teleportation and your team can be easily ragdolled or tele-dropped by him
  • Once Kurt tele-drops your characters in the air, they will be wide open to a free snipe. And even if they are still grounded Hawkeye can still snipe/overwhelm your team with scatter arrows and explosives(keep in mind this is the same guy who baited T'Challa into his arrows, Clint can most certainly replicate it here if need be)
  • Clint his the means to put down Blade with his taser and electric arrows, he can also easily exploit his weakness to piercing weapons with basically anything in his arsenal.
No Caption Provided

@geekryan@jsdoctor Da post is up, ball is in your court now. . .

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#6 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

@chronicplane: Nice opener. I'll have my post up early next week.

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#7 Posted by Chronicplane (9182 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor: Is it okay if I go ahead and tag some additional voters that might be interested?

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#8 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

@chronicplane: Sure, go ahead. We don't have anyone signed up to vote yet so may as well. I may do the same at some point.

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#10 Posted by the_real_seamAn (2126 posts) - - Show Bio

tag for votes once this is complete, that was a good opener

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#11 Posted by geekryan (4722 posts) - - Show Bio

This thread got deleted somehow, but I got it back up! Just in case you tried to access it but were unable to

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#12 Posted by Chronicplane (9182 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for voters.

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#13 Posted by geekryan (4722 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan said:

@jsdoctor: 7 day bump

Have started working on this - will get to it within the next few days.

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#15 Posted by geekryan (4722 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor said:
@geekryan said:

@jsdoctor: 7 day bump

Have started working on this - will get to it within the next few days.

Sounds good! Thanks for the update

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#16 Posted by Chronicplane (9182 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

@chronicplane: I'm assuming so as I'm still working on my post - will get it finished soon, just been a bit busy the last couple of weeks. Apologies for the delay.

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#18 Posted by geekryan (4722 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Edited by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

Blade & Ra's Al Ghul (Post 1, Part 1 of 3: The Daywalker)

No Caption Provided

Introduction

Chronicplane has presented a detailed strategy for Nightcrawler and Hawkeye in this battle. In my post, I'm going to show how Ra's and Blade would react to it, allowing them to take the win over their opponents.

This will be a post in three parts. First, I will present Blade and his capabilities. Second, I will do the same for Ra's and finally I will counter CP's points and strategy with my own.

Let's begin with Blade.

Bio

Eric Brooks is the son of Vanessa Brooks, a nurse who was attacked and bitten by a vampire while in pregnancy. Eric was born while his mother was dying, inheriting some of the vampire's abilities. Young Eric lived most of his life on the streets, until the day he's attacked by Abraham Whistler, a vampire hunter who mistakes him for a true vampire. However, when understanding the nature of the child, Whistler takes him with himself. Eric, who now calls himself Blade, is trained by Whistler to become the most lethal vampire hunter ever. - https://marvel-movies.fandom.com/wiki/Eric_Brooks

Abilities & Gear

Blade, as a half-vampire, has all of their strengths yet none of their weaknesses. These abilities include enhanced strength, durability, speed agility and senses, as well as a slight healing factor.

His gear is suitable for both ranged and melee fights. He carries on him:

  • A sword (which is Vibranium here, due to one of my selected perks)
  • Multiple sharp throwing weapons
  • Multiple guns including a pistol, SMG and shotgun
  • Dagger on a retractable cable
  • Incendiary devices
  • Solar light grenades

Some of this gear will not be relevant to this fight, so I will present feats for the gear that is later in this post.

Strength

No Caption Provided

One of Blade's greatest advantages as a fighter is his enhanced strength. In the above gif, he kicks a vampire across a room hard enough to dent and knock down a thick metal door. Some of his other strength feats are presented below.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
  1. Blade punches a vampire into the ceiling hard enough to kill him with a single blow.
  2. Blade kicks a vampire across a room hard enough to send him clean through a wall.
  3. [Presented above]
  4. Blade punches a fully armoured bodyguard high into the air, and into a rafter hard enough to KO him.

Durability

No Caption Provided

As voters may expect, Blade has the durability to match his impressive strength. Above, he gets slammed into the ground by Mick Rory Dracula hard enough to create both a shockwave and a crater. Despite this, he engages in a prolonged fight with him afterwards. More durability feats are below.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
  1. Blade leaps from one building to another, falling a number of storeys in the process and no-selling it.
  2. Blade no-sells a fall that appears to be around five storeys.
  3. Blade no-sells being punched across a room into a metal support beam and then a short fall.

It is also worth noting that all of Blade's armour is bulletproof, as can be seen below.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Both his vest and coat easily take a significant quantity of bullets.

Speed

Blade's speed is slightly odd, featwise. He has never bullet-timed himself, yet consistently fights evenly with incredibly casual bullet-timers. Other elite vampires in the films are clearly shown to be highly casual bullet-timers, and Blade keeps up with and sometimes even surpasses them in speed. Even if he isn't a bullet-timer himself, he is certainly very close and his combat speed is exceptional.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
  1. Deacon Frost easily dodges three bullets after they're fired in slow-motion.
  2. Blade fights evenly with Frost at high speeds and manages to slice him to pieces.
  3. Mick Rory Dracula dodges a bullet casually after it is fired.
  4. Blade fights evenly with him, though not quite at the high speed that he fought Frost at.

Skill

Links are not working for some reason, so I'm just going to past the URLs in bold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3BcIftlU0A: In this first showing, Blade with his sword takes down 7-8 vampires in 9 seconds whilst surrounded, demonstrating not only incredibly speed but also great combat efficiency & skill.

https://youtu.be/W3BcIftlU0A?t=11: Here, Blade defeats 16 vampires in quick succession without using any weapons, and without being touched except for one point where he is grabbed from behind. This demonstrates, once again, a high level of combat speed and skill.

https://youtu.be/W8pZdrPSt4c?t=114: The above clip is even more impressive. First, Blade takes out 13 armed, armoured and trained vampire guards in 40 seconds without the use of any weapons despite a reach advantage. He is only tagged once, when he is grabbed from behind. Next, he picks up an electric baton takes out a further 13 guards in just 20 seconds. This electric baton, as a melee weapon that can one-shot enemies, is comparable to his sword so this is a valid indication of his capabilities with that weapon. Finally, he takes out another four guards in H2H.

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#20 Edited by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

@chronicplane@geekryan: Part 1 of my post is up. My computer was getting some lag, which is why I've split it into three parts. Sections 2 & 3 will be up either later today or tomorrow.

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#21 Edited by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

Blade & Ra's Al Ghul (Post 1, Part 2 of 3: The Head of the Demon)

Bio

Ra's al Ghul is the leader of the ancient League of Assassins. Having lived for hundreds of years, he has honed his skills to an incredible level and is a deadly combatant. He has personally trained esteemed fighters such as Oliver Queen, Sara Lance, Nyssa al Ghul, Talia al Ghul, Malcolm Merlyn and Al-Owal. His death came at the hands of Oliver Queen in Arrow Season 3.

Abilities and Gear

Ra's has peak human strength and durability, borderline superhuman speed and incredible skill with a sword. His gear consists of the unique sword wielded by the League's leader, as well as durable armour that can tank sniper rounds.

His feats are limited yet impressive, so this part of the post will be on the shorter side.

Strength

No Caption Provided

As almost all of his showings are with a sword, Ra's' striking generally isn't particularly relevant in a fight. With that being said, we can see just how powerful his sword strikes are in the above gif. He slices cleanly through Oliver Queen's steel sword, demonstrating a degree of power that is hard to counter.

Durability

No Caption Provided

Again, Ra's has few durability feats but his pain tolerance is quite incredible. Above, he catches a full force sword strike from Oliver Queen without even flinching. This is the same Oliver who can casually kick open a padlocked door and decapitate a stone statue with a blunt weapon.

Speed

No Caption Provided

Where Ra's really shines is in his speed and skill. His travel speed is straight-up superhuman, as he moves faster than the eye can perceive.

No Caption Provided

The above gif is not canon - Ra's is in the rather peculiar position of never having arrow-timed in the show, as he never fought anyone whilst they were armed. Despite that, he is certainly intended to be one. Not only is shown slicing arrows out of the air in the above promo, but practically every named League member can arrow-time, many of them incredibly casually (eg Nyssa, Merlyn), and Ra's dwarfs all of them. He also, as can be seen below, dominates Oliver in combat speed. Oliver was an incredibly casual arrow-timer even before he fought with Ra's, able to catch them from behind his head.

No Caption Provided

CP can try to argue that Ra's isn't an arrow-timer if he would like to, but the way in which he absolutely dominates casual arrow-timers, combined with the fact that so many inferior League members are casual arrow-timers, should prove that he certainly is one. Even if his reaction speed isn't shown to be on that level, his combat and travel speed are certainly incredible.

Skill

(Link: https://youtu.be/igY1-lJEpmk?t=21 if the above video isn't working properly. I've been having some issues embedding YT clips for some reason.)

The above fight is one of the most impressive fodder feats in the entirety of Arrow. Ra's effortlessly defeats 8 League members in 12 seconds whilst surrounded without being touched. What makes this even more impressive is that League members are very high-level fodder. Lyla Diggle has been taken down by a single assassin here - note that this was in Season 3. I'm not going to use Season 2 showings for them as they are inconsistent with how they were portrayed later on in the show. Lyla easily takes down Ghosts here. Ghosts are stated to be highly trained and efficient mercenaries, more powerful than regular mercenaries. By scaling, therefore, League members are significantly better fighters than even highly trained mercenaries - and Ra's still manages to decimate 8 in 12 seconds. He scales to an even higher level than this, but I'll save that for a future post if necessary.

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#22 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27737 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me folks

Online
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#23 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

@chronicplane@geekryan - Part 2 up as well. 1 & 2 were just establishing the combatants' general capabilities whereas 3 will be counters & strategy, so it will be substantially longer but once again should be up either later today or tomorrow.

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#24 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

Blade & Ra's Al Ghul (Post 1, Part 3 of 3: The Battle at Hand)

This part of the post is going to consist of my counters to CP's strategy, and my team's response to it.

Counters: Prep Time 1

CP suggests that Hawkeye & Nightcrawler will use their first hour of prep to take a substantial amount of gear from SHIELD. Whilst this plan is fine in theory, there is a significant issue with it in practise - as far as Clint is concerned, SHIELD doesn't exist anymore. SHIELD currently consists of two people in Tahiti (it's a magical place to be fair) and a few more in space searching for a copy of Leopold Fitz. As an official organisation, it was dissolved following the LMD debacle. He doesn't know that a version of SHIELD currently exists, and even if he did he would have no way of reaching them in space, particularly within an hour. Even if he somehow managed that, they wouldn't have the specific gear required by an archer, and even if they did, none of the current agents have met Clint before.

This part of the plan simply isn't feasible. But for the sake of debate, I'll continue my post by showing what would happen even if Clint got this gear from somewhere else.

Counters: Prep Time 2

CP suggests here that Hawkeye will set out various trap arrows, and Nightcrawler will then teleport him to the rafters where he will wait for my team to arrive. I have no issues with the second part of this plan - Hawkeye waiting in the rafters is a perfectly valid strategy. I have two counters to the first part of it, however.

First, CP suggests that Hawkeye will use arrows rigged with electricity and explosives. Him using rigged electric arrows is completely feasible - the same cannot be said of arrows rigged with explosives. At no point in the MCU have we ever seen Hawkeye, or anyone else, use explosive arrows that don't detonate immediately after being fired. There is no reason to assume that this is part of his gear, or something that SHIELD ever had, as we have never seen it on-screen. This part of the strategy therefore isn't valid as it involves Hawkeye using gear that simply has not been shown to exist in the MCU.

Second, I'd like to respond to the rigged electric arrows. We've only seen them incapacitate Vision (the arrows used on Wanda required contact to shock her so were a different type that I'll get to later - even so, one-shotting someone with no electric resistance and average human pain tolerance is nothing special.) It's established in Civil War that Vibranium is vulnerable to electricity - we see here, for instance, that Black Widow is able to briefly hold back Black Panther with her ranged electric weapons. Vision, as not just a synthezoid but specifically a Vibranium synthezoid, should logically have the same weakness - him being vulnerable to electricity certainly seems more logical than Hawkeye having arrows capable of casually incapacitating Thor-level characters and only ever using them on Vision. With that being said, these arrows have been shown to temporarily freeze a being who is not only technology-based, but also made of a material specifically shown to be vulnerable to electric attacks. As CP himself states, these won't be putting either of my combatants down. They may temporarily incapacitate Ra's (though this isn't guaranteed considering Ra's' highly impressive pain tolerance), but they certainly aren't doing anything to Blade. Ironically, the gif used by CP to show his vulnerability to electricity is actually a great electricity resistance feat for him.

Note that Blade was only struck here because he was in shock after unexpectedly seeing his mother alive - he had believed her to be dead
Note that Blade was only struck here because he was in shock after unexpectedly seeing his mother alive - he had believed her to be dead

It takes around a dozen taser shocks to actually put the Daywalker down - bear in mind that just one shock from a weapon like this will cause a human severe pain and bring them down. Hawkeye's rigged electric arrow's aren't doing anything.

To conclude my counters to CP's prep: Even if Clint manages to acquire the suggested gear despite having no access to the small SHIELD that he isn't even aware exists, the traps he will actually be able to rig won't do anything more than temporarily incapacitate Ra's.

Counters: The Battle & My Counterstrategy

CP's plan for the battle itself can be summarised as follows:

  1. The traps rigged by Hawkeye will be used against my combatants.
  2. Nightcrawler will ragdoll Blade.
  3. Nightcrawler will tele-drop Ra's, and Hawkeye will fire arrows at him.
  4. Hawkeye will beat Blade from a distance.

I've already dealt with the first point of this plan - I will do the same in turn for each of the others.

Looking first at the issue of Nightcrawler ragdolling Blade - this isn't hurting him at all. As far as I know, Nightcrawler has no striking feats even close to the hit that Blade no-sold below - though I am more than happy to take back this statement if CP can present such a feat. He was ragdolled at high speed across a room into a metal support beam (which he dented) and then fell a short distance - taking absolutely no damage and continuing to fight as if nothing had happened.

No Caption Provided

Next, on the issue of Nightcrawler tele-dropping Ra's, and Clint firing various trick arrows at him as he falls. I am willing to concede that this will almost certainly kill Ra's - but he will more than likely be taking Kurt with him. Kurt is fast, but Ra's' combat speed is incredible. As shown in part 2 of my post, he casually dances around Oliver Queen, someone who even at that point in the show could pluck arrows out of the air from behind him without so much as blinking. In the gif presented below, he manages to stand opposite him in clear view and strike him in the face before Oliver can do anything to react. This was not a sneak attack, nor was it dependent on skill. It was purely Ra's hitting an incredibly casual arrow-timer in the face before he could react to dodge or block. He has more similar showings that I can present in a future post if necessary.

No Caption Provided

Nightcrawler hasn't reacted to anyone with this speed. If he grabs Ra's and teleports him to the ceiling, Ra's will stab him before he can teleport away. And with the striking power to cut clean through a steel sword, he will one-shot Nightcrawler (who, to the best of my knowledge has no notable piercing durability feats).

Finally, we have the argument that Hawkeye will be able to shoot Blade once Nightcrawler/Ra's are out of the picture. I want to consider four factors here.

  1. Blade will know Clint's position. CP's strategy involves him firing arrows at Ra's before Blade, which will alert Blade to his location.
  2. After Blade is struck by Kurt, he will be free to do as he wishes (as I've already shown that he won't be hurt by the blow). Clint, on the other hand, will be occupied firing a barrage of arrows at Ra's, according to CP's plan.
  3. Consider their respective locations. Blade is on the ground with crates and other means of cover that Clint can't bypass without his large explosive arrows or shockwave arrows (these aren't allowed in this tourney as the organiser considered them to be too powerful.) Clint, on the other hand, is on a rafter without really having anywhere to go except along more visible rafters.
  4. Blade, as shown above, should be more than fast enough to dodge some arrows. This point isn't even relevant, however, as due to the above and below arguments Clint won't have the opportunity to fire a clean shot at him.

Now let's examine Blade's proficiency with thrown projectiles. First, his accuracy:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
  1. Blade curves a bladed weapon in a circle so that it decapitates three vampires and returns to him. Note that this is also a feat for throwing strength as it cleanly decapitates three individuals without losing any momentum.
  2. Blade casually tosses his sword high into a wall with enough accuracy to carefully dislodge some of his gear so that it falls into his hands.
  3. This feat is pretty insane - Blade perfectly curves a bladed projectile in almost a rectangle, killing six vampires at multiple heights and meeting him at a position that he jumps to.

These three feats show not only that Blade is accurate enough to hit Clint through a curved throw even if he somehow manages to get behind cover, but also that he is strong enough with the projectiles to one-shot him. Now let's look at his throwing speed:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
  1. This is to establish that Deacon Frost can dodge bullets incredibly casually.
  2. Here, Blade throws a projectile into Frost's torso from a similar range to that from which he dodged bullets. He simply throws it fast enough that a casual bullet-timer cannot react to it.
  3. In a literal blur of motion, Blade throws a series of projectiles at FTE speeds.

These feats establish that not only is Blade more than fast enough to tag Hawkeye, he is also fast enough to shoot him before he gets hit with anything. To summarise this section:

  • Blade has cover; Clint does not
  • Blade has ways of bypassing cover; Clint does not
  • Clint is occupied shooting Ra's according to CP's plan; Blade is focussed solely on Clint here
  • Blade is faster on the draw than Clint
  • Blade throws projectiles too fast for Clint to react to them.

And that's without even getting into his marksmanship - I can get into that in a future post, if necessary. Blade will, under these conditions, beat Clint at range.

Conclusion

  • Clint may not be able to acquire the gear that CP suggests he will, but even if he does then Blade/Ra's still win for the reasons below
  • The traps laid by Clint will not harm Blade, and will at best temporarily hinder Ra's
  • Blade will no-sell Kurt's initial hit
  • Ra's will take down Kurt if he is tele-dropped, though he will likely die in the process
  • Under these conditions, Blade will beat the preoccupied and hindered Hawkeye at range due to a variety of reasons
Sheer, unbridled early-2000s combat skill
Sheer, unbridled early-2000s combat skill

@geekryan@chronicplane: All parts of the post are up! Your move now.

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#25 Posted by geekryan (4722 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by Chronicplane (9182 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor: @geekryan: Apologies for the delay, I'll try to get my counter post up by the end of this week.

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#27 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

@chronicplane: No worries, I certainly took a while to do my post.

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#28 Posted by geekryan (4722 posts) - - Show Bio

@chronicplane: 2 more days to post! Unless you need an extra day or two?

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#29 Edited by geekryan (4722 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Edited by Chronicplane (9182 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor: @geekryan: Could I get an extra three day extension, work has been building up quiet a bit. Should be able to get it up by then. Apologies for the delay.

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#31 Posted by geekryan (4722 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor: @geekryan: Could I get an extra three day extension, work has been building up quiet a bit. Should be able to get it up by then. Apologies for the delay.

I can give you until Wednesday, but no later than that.

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#32 Posted by Chronicplane (9182 posts) - - Show Bio

Rebuttal #I | Hunters and Prey

No Caption Provided

I'll be mainly countering your points towards my prep time and gear which I will be using in this battle, with this being said let's get started.

Counters Towards Blade:

Now this is an interesting character, and while I concede in terms of raw stats he has both of my members beat. However I don't intend to defeat your team through physicals alone as I've already made myself clear in my opener.

Counters Towards Ra's:

As almost all of his showings are with a sword, Ra's' striking generally isn't particularly relevant in a fight. With that being said, we can see just how powerful his sword strikes are in the above gif. He slices cleanly through Oliver Queen's steel sword, demonstrating a degree of power that is hard to counter.

Not going to be very relevant if he's being sniped from a far away distance, but okay.

Again, Ra's has few durability feats but his pain tolerance is quite incredible. Above, he catches a full force sword strike from Oliver Queen without even flinching. This is the same Oliver who can casually kick open a padlocked door and decapitate a stone statue with a bluntweapon.

This doesn't exactly translate to making him immune to piercing weapons tho, and Hawkeye's arrows have pierced through stuff greater than what you've shown so far.

Captain America: Civil War
Captain America: Civil War

Here you can clearly see Clints arrow doing damage to the suit, now you maybe be thinking it was just the explosion but no. Admittedly it is a bit hard to see in a full speed gif so I took the honor of snapping a shot of the arrow piercing the armor, just before it detonated.

As you can see above, the arrow did do damage to the armor.
As you can see above, the arrow did do damage to the armor.

Any well placed shot from Clint would undoubtedly kill Ra's seeing as he obviously has no feats that put him above Iron Man.

Where Ra's really shines is in his speed and skill. His travel speed is straight-up superhuman, as he moves faster than the eye can perceive.

Don't really think this is combat applicable, has he ever done this in an actual fight. Even so it shouldn't be anything my team can't handle which I'll elaborate on in a bit.

The above gif is not canon - Ra's is in the rather peculiar position of never having arrow-timed in the show, as he never fought anyone whilst they were armed. Despite that, he is certainly intended to be one. Not only is shown slicing arrows out of the air in the above promo, but practically every named League member can arrow-time, many of them incredibly casually (eg Nyssa, Merlyn), and Ra's dwarfs all of them. He also, as can be seen below, dominates Oliver in combat speed. Oliver was an incredibly casual arrow-timer even before he fought with Ra's, able to catch them from behind his head.

No Caption Provided

CP can try to argue that Ra's isn't an arrow-timer if he would like to, but the way in which he absolutely dominates casual arrow-timers, combined with the fact that so many inferior League members are casual arrow-timers, should prove that he certainly is one. Even if his reaction speed isn't shown to be on that level, his combat and travel speed are certainly incredible.

Fighting someone who has arrow timed =/= Having experience catching arrows, especially from someone as skilled and precise as Hawkeye. Even then, Clint has tango'd with Black Panther in close quarters combat.

Captain America: Cival War
Captain America: Cival War

This is the same Black Panther who has diced a bullet in the air after being fired. Not only that but Clint has tagged T'Challa with his arrows as you will see below.

Captain America: Civil War
Captain America: Civil War

Clint deliberately lets T'Challa dodge the arrows, each shot planned for that tag which he got(and would've messed up T'Challa if not for the suit), From what you've shown so far I have no doubt Clint will be able to tag Ra's, especially while falling from the air.

I'll leave the skill section as I don't plan on taking you out in CQC.

Defending Prep I:

CP suggests that Hawkeye & Nightcrawler will use their first hour of prep to take a substantial amount of gear from SHIELD.

Whilst this plan is fine in theory, there is a significant issue with it in practise - as far as Clint is concerned, SHIELD doesn't exist anymore.

SHIELD currently consists of two people in Tahiti (it's a magical place to be fair) and a few more in space searching for a copy of Leopold Fitz. As an official organisation, it was dissolved following the LMD debacle. He doesn't know that a version of SHIELD currently exists, and even if he did he would have no way of reaching them in space, particularly within an hour.

Even if he somehow managed that, they wouldn't have the specific gear required by an archer, and even if they did, none of the current agents have met Clint before.

I mean, fair enough. Tho Clint being a highly trained shield agent and one of the best I wouldn't think it would be completely infallible for him to gather equipment as h's always been the resourceful type, like he was considered one of the best(next to Natasha) and was considered an elite you wouldn't think he'd know how to get some arrows, his connections with SHIELD alone should be enough to achieve this. As for whether my team can reach to said locations, this won't be an issue as I've already clarified with the OP.

No Caption Provided

Geekryan has basically confirmed that with prep anywhere my team can be teleported to any location and back which makes the whole "reaching to x place" argument moot.

This part of the plan simply isn't feasible. But for the sake of debate, I'll continue my post by showing what would happen even if Clint got this gear from somewhere else.

Already addressed above.

Defending Prep II:

CP suggests here that Hawkeye will set out various trap arrows, and Nightcrawler will then teleport him to the rafters where he will wait for my team to arrive. I have no issues with the second part of this plan - Hawkeye waiting in the rafters is a perfectly valid strategy. I have two counters to the first part of it, however.

Concession accepted on this part of my strategy.

First, CP suggests that Hawkeye will use arrows rigged with electricity and explosives. Him using rigged electric arrows is completely feasible - the same cannot be said of arrows rigged with explosives. At no point in the MCU have we ever seen Hawkeye, or anyone else, use explosive arrows that don't detonate immediately after being fired. There is no reason to assume that this is part of his gear, or something that SHIELD ever had, as we have never seen it on-screen. This part of the strategy therefore isn't valid as it involves Hawkeye using gear that simply has not been shown to exist in the MCU.

Avengers Assemble
Avengers Assemble

On the contrary Hawkeye has actually displayed explosive arrows that don't detonate immediately as you can see above, he's used such arrows and manually set them off so he isn't unfamiliar with them. Although for this tourney I am restricted of the larger explosives it's still feasible for Clint to use explosive traps just on the scale shown above. With that said you've basically conceded Hawkeye would have electric arrows which I'll further elaborate on in a bit and how they'll be put into play.

Second, I'd like to respond to the rigged electric arrows. We've only seen them incapacitate Vision (the arrows used on Wanda required contact to shock her so were a different type that I'll get to later - even so, one-shotting someone with no electric resistance and average human pain tolerance is nothing special.) It's established in Civil War that Vibranium is vulnerable to electricity - we see here, for instance, that Black Widow is able to briefly hold back Black Panther with her ranged electric weapons.

Alright, tho I wasn't gonna argue these arrows being Thor level. But as you can tell they are clearly above your average tasers.

No Caption Provided

With a quick google search(Here's a link to the full site), it's stated that a standard taser can admit up to 1,200 volts through the body (50,000 volts in an open air arc). I shouldn't have to really elaborate why Clints electric arrows are stronger than your average arrows(in fact they should be massively stronger) considering they disabled a damn robot.

Vision, as not just a synthezoid but specifically a Vibranium synthezoid, should logically have the same weakness - him being vulnerable to electricity certainly seems more logical than Hawkeye having arrows capable of casually incapacitating Thor-level characters and only ever using them on Vision. With that being said, these arrows have been shown to temporarily freeze a being who is not only technology-based, but also made of a material specifically shown to be vulnerable to electric attacks.

And how does this translate to Blade exactly, the same person who got incaped by your standard tasers. Just by the sheer looks of Clints electric traps demonstrates it's vastly superior to your standard electrics which I doubt Blade could tank, It took vision a good amount of time to break out of the trap so I doubt Blade will fair any better considering his natural vulnerability towards tasers.

As CP himself states, these won't be putting either of my combatants down. They may temporarily incapacitate Ra's (though this isn't guaranteed considering Ra's' highly impressive pain tolerance), but they certainly aren't doing anything to Blade.

So far you haven't posted any electrical resistance feats for Ra so he just gets immediately immobilized from the taser arrow(or get blown in the face with one of Clints explosives placed and charged). Having a good pain tolerance ain't gonna do much against Clints gear.

Ironically, the gif used by CP to show his vulnerability to electricity is actually a great electricity resistance feat for him. It takes around a dozen taser shocks to actually put the Daywalker down - bear in mind that just one shock from a weapon like this will cause a human severe pain and bring them down. Hawkeye's rigged electric arrow's aren't doing anything.

Not really, he's clearly being hurt from being tasered just once. Repeated attacks brought him down but I've already elaborated above why Clints electric arrows should be and are greater than your standard run of the mill tasers. At best Blade might be able to resist but he surely ain't breaking out of the trap, especially since from being stun by multiple normal taser arrows brought him to his knees I don't really see how he'd break out of something like this.

Take not of the amount of electricity coming out of the traps, clearly something above your everyday tasers.
Take not of the amount of electricity coming out of the traps, clearly something above your everyday tasers.

If Blade gets caught in Clints electric net trap (which he will since he doesn't know there will be traps placed) he'll be immobilized and brought to his knees, leaving him wide open for a clean placed headshot and he wouldn't be able to dodge or block because he'll essentially be frozen in that electric net and since you've basically conceded he is vulnerable to this it's more than likely he'd go down by the sheer amount of electricity pumping through him.

To conclude my counters to CP's prep: Even if Clint manages to acquire the suggested gear despite having no access to the small SHIELD that he isn't even aware exists, the traps he will actually be able to rig won't do anything more than temporarily incapacitate Ra's.

Already addressed why is fallible for Clint to obtain gear, how prep anywhere makes my teaming reaching to said location makes questioning it moot and from what you've shown your members will get taken out by the traps, especially ra's with a well placed explosive or taser leaving him immobilized and wide open. Blade due to his natural weakness towards electricity will in fact get brought down by this level of electricity unless if my opponent can provide any further resistance feats.

Initial Counters towards Your Counter Strategy:

Looking first at the issue of Nightcrawler ragdolling Blade - this isn't hurting him at all. As far as I know, Nightcrawler has no striking feats even close to the hit that Blade no-sold below - though I am more than happy to take back this statement if CP can present such a feat. He was ragdolled at high speed across a room into a metal support beam (which he dented) and then fell a short distance - taking absolutely no damage and continuing to fight as if nothing had happened.

Well it doesn't necessarily matter since Blade will be frozen in place thanks to the electric arrows and weakened, but I'll concede Kurt doesn't have the striking power to put him down. Tho I will be moving onto your next point that goes over my strategy of tele-dropping Ra's and how he'll do this and teleport back without being killed or injured.

Next, on the issue of Nightcrawler tele-dropping Ra's, and Clint firing various trick arrows at him as he falls. I am willing to concede that this will almost certainly kill Ra's - but he will more than likely be taking Kurt with him.

Concession accepted.

Kurt is fast, but Ra's' combat speed is incredible. As shown in part 2 of my post, he casually dances around Oliver Queen, someone who even at that point in the show could pluck arrows out of the air from behind him without so much as blinking. In the gif presented below, he manages to stand opposite him in clear view and strike him in the face before Oliver can do anything to react. This was not a sneak attack, nor was it dependent on skill. It was purely Ra's hitting an incredibly casual arrow-timer in the face before he could react to dodge or block. He has more similar showings that I can present in a future post if necessary.

So dancing around an arrow timer, that is good and all however it isn't something Kurt can't really handle, as I'll show below.

X-Men: I
X-Men: I

Fortunately Kurt has actually bullet timed and it was in his very opening scene in X-Men: I, the guy fires off numerous shots directly at Kurt and the latter dodges each and every single no of them. If you look close attention to the last one Kurt was mere meters away from the guy. The last bullet fired at Kurt was right in front of him from a mere few feet away. You could perhaps argue this isn't clear bullet timing however he's done this multiple times.

X-Men: I
X-Men: I

The security guard holding the machine gun fires it directly at Kurt, the latter avoids the bullets before they reach him and proceeds to take out said guard. Now this was in slow mo but that doesn't really change the fact that Kurt bullet timed against an assault rifle. At absolute best you could do is argue this to be ridiculous levels of aim dodging(if you ask me) or low end bullet timing. Either way I think I've my point that Kurt can just about handle any of Ra's speeds and probably even beat him in. From what you've presented so far it looks like Kurt is too fast for Ra's.

Nightcrawler hasn't reacted to anyone with this speed. If he grabs Ra's and teleports him to the ceiling, Ra's will stab him before he can teleport away. And with the striking power to cut clean through a steel sword, he will one-shot Nightcrawler (who, to the best of my knowledge has no notable piercing durability feats).

Already addressed, Kurt holds a slight to an considerable speed advantage over Ra's. With that aside your main point in this section is that Ra's will be perfectly prepared to be dealing with a teleporter which I don't really see tbh. Unless you can provide feats of Ra's dealing with such a being then I don't really see any reason why Kurt doesn't get the drop on him and it's not like his teleportation isn't exactly slow(which it isn't). The problem I see here is that Ra's simply won't be prepared to deal with this, and by the time he does figure that out he'll be in the air and seeing as I've established Kurts speed he should have no trouble getting out of the way.

Finally, we have the argument that Hawkeye will be able to shoot Blade once Nightcrawler/Ra's are out of the picture. I want to consider four factors here.

I have no problem with this aside from the Nightcrawler/Ra's part, as Kurt will still be in the fight my friend. At this point it's basically become Nightcrawler and Hawkeye vs a weakened/immobilized Blade.

Blade will know Clint's position. CP's strategy involves him firing arrows at Ra's before Blade, which will alert Blade to his location.

I'm afraid Blade will be too occupied dealing with the bane of his existence being electricity to notice these arrows.

After Blade is struck by Kurt, he will be free to do as he wishes (as I've already shown that he won't be hurt by the blow). Clint, on the other hand, will be occupied firing a barrage of arrows at Ra's, according to CP's plan.

Actually he'll simply be incased in electricity really and I think your overexaggerating the sheer of difficulty of shooting what is essentially a falling duck in the sky(being Ra's). As I've already established in my initial opener Clint can fire off 3 arrows in 1.9 seconds and all he really needs to do is fire of the scatter arrows at Ra and he's basically done for or just fire off multiple arrows in mere seconds. Either way you slice it this isn't gonna take Clint long at all, especially with morals off.

Consider their respective locations. Blade is on the ground with crates and other means of cover that Clint can't bypass without his large explosive arrows or shockwave arrows (these aren't allowed in this tourney as the organiser considered them to be too powerful.) Clint, on the other hand, is on a rafter without really having anywhere to go except along more visible rafters.

I can easily counter with the electric arrows, in fact he'll already be immobilized and completely helpless to take cover. At that point nothings stopping Clint from putting a well placed arrow through his head (and seeing as he can pierce an IM suit, this shouldn't be an issue) And there's also Kurt who will be making sure Blade is focused on him.

Blade, as shown above, should be more than fast enough to dodge some arrows. This point isn't even relevant, however, as due to the above and below arguments Clint won't have the opportunity to fire a clean shot at him.

Blade dodging arrows while completely weakened and immobilized from the electricity pulsing through the traps, I highly doubt that(unless you can show him dodging arrows whilst under the effects of electricity)

Now your entire next section involves Blade throwing a projectile at Clint, however since I've already made clear that ain't gonna happen I'll just leave this the way it is for now. But I will say there's simply nothing stopping Clint from constantly moving on the beams and it's not like it's particularly bright up there as in contrary it's the opposite so I doubt Blade will get a good view of him.

These feats establish that not only is Blade more than fast enough to tag Hawkeye, he is also fast enough to shoot him before he gets hit with anything. To summarise this section:

  • Blade has cover; Clint does not
  • Blade has ways of bypassing cover; Clint does not
  • Clint is occupied shooting Ra's according to CP's plan; Blade is focussed solely on Clint here
  • Blade is faster on the draw than Clint
  • Blade throws projectiles too fast for Clint to react to them.

And that's without even getting into his marksmanship - I can get into that in a future post, if necessary. Blade will, under these conditions, beat Clint at range.

I've basically already addressed all this above, but none of this will come into fruition as electricity will keep him down.

Counters Towards My Opponents Conclusion:

Clint may not be able to acquire the gear that CP suggests he will, but even if he does then Blade/Ra's still win for the reasons below

Already addressed.

The traps laid by Clint will not harm Blade, and will at best temporarily hinder Ra's

It's the complete opposite for Blade and at best Ra's will be stunned by the electricity/explosives(worst he gets completely paralyzed)

Blade will no-sell Kurt's initial hit

While under the effects of electricity, I'm not so sure but even so it doesn't matter as I plan on beating Blade through other means.

Ra's will take down Kurt if he is tele-dropped, though he will likely die in the process

You've pretty much conceded Ra's dies here, and I've provided further evidence that Kurt can and will avoid getting stabbed by Ra. Even then your team will not be prepared in any shape or form to be dealing with a teleporter unless you had a knowledge perk which you unfortunately don't process.

Under these conditions, Blade will beat the preoccupied and hindered Hawkeye at range due to a variety of reasons

Already addressed above.

What my Opponent has Failed to Counter:

Nightcrawlers Teleportation - Pretty self explanatory really, from what my opponent has shown thus far I can safely conclude his team has no real counters towards Kurts instantaneous teleportation. He's provided no addition counters towards being tele-dropped either. His whole argument is built on the idea that his team will deal with him but as of know his characters have never dealt with this sort of thing before and with the perks he has in no way, shape or form will his team be prepared to deal with this.

Hawkeye's versatility, gear and range - From what my opponent as shown Clint still holds the range advantage and can't be tagged from such a distance(being from the ground to the high beams) nor provided any additional counters towards his versatility.

Blades vulnerability to electricity - My opponent thought he could be sneaky and turn around the taser feat as a way of showing phenomenal resistance to electricity but on the contrary he really didn't prove anything. He was even brought to his knees from the first taser(before being strike'd with the other tasers) and now this would be good against normal tasers but I've further proven that Clints electric arrows/traps are clearly greater than your standard run of the mill tasers. Any electric trap that can admit numerous volts, engulfing a victim in electricity isn't a normal taser.

Initial Conclusion:

Nothing has really changed from the conclusion of my initial opener really, but for this rebuttal I'll further elaborate on certain key aspects I didn't focus on as much on the opener:

  • Blade's indisputable weakness towards electricity will lead to his ultimate demise towards Clints electric arrows and traps
  • My opponents team has no initial counter towards Kurts instantaneous teleportation nor will Ra's or Blade be properly prepared to deal with such an opponent
  • Kurt is at the very least fast enough to tele-drop Ra's and bamf out before he can tag him
  • Blade won't be able to deal with the bombardment of Clints versatility and electricity pumping through him, resulting in a well placed clean headshot with an arrow

That's about it, everything else is the same as it was in my openers conclusion.

You're move
You're move
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#33 Posted by Chronicplane (9182 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: @jsdoctor: Sincere apologies for the delay(and if the post may look a bit rough) but here it is.

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#34 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: @jsdoctor: Sincere apologies for the delay(and if the post may look a bit rough) but here it is.

Very nice post - I'll hopefully get round to addressing it relatively soon.

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#35 Posted by Chronicplane (9182 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for voters.

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#36 Edited by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

Blade & Ra's Al Ghul (Post 2: Rebuttals & Defences)

Apologies for the Nightmares
Apologies for the Nightmares

I'm going to split this post into three sections. First, I'll defend my two characters from CP's initial rebuttals. Then, I'll readdress the issue of prep time bearing in mind his new points. Finally, I'll do the same for the battle itself.

Defending Blade & Ra's

In my first post, I gave a rough overview of Blade & Ra's' capabilities for voters that may be unfamiliar with them (perhaps more applicable to Blade than to Ra's. Here, I'm going to be countering CP's rebuttals to that section. He doesn't refute my claims regarding Blade, so there's nothing for me to address there. He has a few rebuttals to my presentation of Ra's, however. Seeing as I've already conceded that Hawkeye's arrows will pierce Ra's' armour, and this battle probably won't come down to close-quarters combat, there's no need for me to counter some of these. I would like to address a point he makes regarding Clint's ranged efficiency here though.

Not only that but Clint has tagged T'Challa with his arrows as you will see below.

Captain America: Civil War
Captain America: Civil War

Clint deliberately lets T'Challa dodge the arrows, each shot planned for that tag which he got(and would've messed up T'Challa if not for the suit). From what you've shown so far I have no doubt Clint will be able to tag Ra's, especially while falling from the air.

Clint does not tag T'Challa with an arrow here. Panther very clearly dodges the first couple of shots, and then catches the last two arrows. It's clear-cut arrow-timing. BP does get hit with an explosion form the arrows that he catches, but that's very different from Clint being effective enough to actually tag a bullet-timer with his arrows. There's no indication that T'Challa would have caught the arrows if he knew that they were explosive.

From what you've shown so far I have no doubt Clint will be able to tag Ra's, especially while falling from the air.

This is not something that I'm doubting - I do believe that Clint can tag a falling Ra's with explosives, but I think that Ra's will take Kurt with him, a viewpoint that I'm going to defend later in the post.

Further Countering Prep I

CP shows that reaching a location isn't a problem for Hawkeye during prep according to the tourney rules, which is fair enough. That still doesn't change the fact that he doesn't know that SHIELD exists currently so wouldn't think to go to them, and it's doubtful that they would even have his arrows & gear.

Though, as I said in my first post, I'm willing to ignore this and assume that he somehow gets the gear for the sake of maintaining a good debate.

Further Countering Prep II

CP shows here that Hawkeye has used remotely detonated explosives before.

Avengers Assemble
Avengers Assemble

On the contrary Hawkeye has actually displayed explosive arrows that don't detonate immediately as you can see above, he's used such arrows and manually set them off so he isn't unfamiliar with them. Although for this tourney I am restricted of the larger explosives it's still feasible for Clint to use explosive traps just on the scale shown above.

Given that the explosive arrow shown in the gif above blew a massive hole in the side of the Helicarrier, I think it's fair to assume that they're restricted for this particular tourney. With that being said, any smaller remotely detonated explosives that he may hypothetically have would be featless, as we've never seen them used. Even if we were to give them the feats from Hawkeye's regular smaller explosives, we have to consider the way in which they would be activated. The ones set up in prep time would be placed on the crates and stands and detonate when my combatants get close to them, not fired directly at them (those don't come into play until later in the battle). There are certainly no feats held by Clint's smaller explosive arrows to suggest that they could hurt someone on Blade's caliber of durability if they aren't fired directly at him.

Immediately after this, he stands up and fights the enhanced, monstrous vampire form of Dracula.
Immediately after this, he stands up and fights the enhanced, monstrous vampire form of Dracula.

So the issues with these remotely detonated smaller explosive arrows are:

  1. We don't know that they exist.
  2. If they exist, they are featless.
  3. Even if they do exist and we grant them feats from Clint's other explosive arrows, they still don't have the feats to hurt Blade when they aren't fired directly at him.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now I want to address the issue of the electric arrows again.

In my first post, I brought up the fact that Vision should be particularly vulnerable to electricity. He is made of Vibranium, and I showed that Vibranium is consistently weak against electrical attacks using the example of Black Panther. The following was CP's response.

And how does this translate to Blade exactly, the same person who got incaped by your standard tasers. Just by the sheer looks of Clints electric traps demonstrates it's vastly superior to your standard electrics which I doubt Blade could tank, It took vision a good amount of time to break out of the trap so I doubt Blade will fair any better considering his natural vulnerability towards tasers.

The way it translates to Blade is that incapacitating Vision is not particularly impressive. He mentions that Blade is potentially vulnerable to electricity (something that I will go on to counter), but Vision is significantly more vulnerable as he is made entirely of a material that is weak against electrical attacks. Incapacitating Vision is not a good enough feat to suggest that the traps can hold Blade.

CP also brings up the idea that the traps look powerful. Films dramatise electric attacks all the time so I'm not entirely convinced by this argument, but I'm now going to show why even if that is the case, they still won't hold Blade.

No Caption Provided

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

CP and I have different interpretations of this gif. I see it as impressive that Blade can tank around a dozen taser shocks. Even if that isn't the case and even if Blade is just as vulnerable to electric attacks as a normal human, here's why he can still tank the electric immobilisation net.

Let's slow the gif down.

No Caption Provided

At 50% speed we can see that all of the taser strikes either hit blade where his skin is exposed (neck/arms) or on the unprotected parts of his torso. None of them hit the vest that he wears, and there is a very good reason for that - Kevlar offers protection from electricity. I've already shown that Blade's vest is Kevlar.

No Caption Provided
Source: https://www.christinedemerchant.com/carbon-kevlar-glass-comparison.html
Source: https://www.christinedemerchant.com/carbon-kevlar-glass-comparison.html

Furthermore, the coat that Blade wears as standard gear also offer him protection from electricity.

His coat is reinforced leather
His coat is reinforced leather
Leather is an insulator
Leather is an insulator

Leather is a great insulator - there's a reason why electricians typically wear leather gloves.

So between these factors, the trap will not generate the same full-body electric connection with Blade that it does with Vision.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Of course, all this is assuming that Blade is even tagged by the trap.

No Caption Provided

They're three-pronged metal arrows with blue LEDs - not exactly inconspicuous.

Of course, if Ra's is tagged by one of these first then Blade will be specifically on the lookout for them. And, given that Ra's has better travel speed (he moved faster than the eye can perceive to catch Thea when she tried running away from him), it seems likely that Ra's will be caught first as he will move into a trap first.

The only time in the show when Ra's actually had to run, he used this travel speed
The only time in the show when Ra's actually had to run, he used this travel speed

And if Blade becomes aware of that happening (which he instantly will as one of my perks is a mind link between Blade & Ra's), then he'll take particular care to avoid the traps.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So to summarise my view on the electric traps, which are one of the main points of contention in this debate:

  1. Ra's will probably be tagged by a trap first, and once he is then Blade will take specific care to avoid the same fate.
  2. Blade will be able to avoid the traps as they are visible.
  3. Blade probably has some natural electricity resistance.
  4. Even if Blade does not have natural electricity resistance, he wears a full body-length coat that is an excellent insulator and will protect him from electric attacks.
  5. The only feat that Hawkeye's electric traps have are incapacitating someone who is specifically vulnerable to electricity - this is not good enough to suggest that it can hold someone who is wearing clothing that protects him from electric attacks.

How the Battle Unfolds

I'm going to address three things here. First, whether or not Ra's can take down Kurt before he dies. Second, why even if Kurt survives he isn't relevant. Finally, why Blade beats Clint at range.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So, first - why Ra's takes down Kurt before he dies. CP presents the following feat for Nightcrawler.

X-Men: I
X-Men: I

The security guard holding the machine gun fires it directly at Kurt, the latter avoids the bullets before they reach him and proceeds to take out said guard. Now this was in slow mo but that doesn't really change the fact that Kurt bullet timed against an assault rifle. At absolute best you could do is argue this to be ridiculous levels of aim dodging(if you ask me) or low end bullet timing. Either way I think I've my point that Kurt can just about handle any of Ra's speeds and probably even beat him in. From what you've presented so far it looks like Kurt is too fast for Ra's.

Let's interpret it at its absolute strongest for the sake of debate, and assume that Kurt is bullet-timing. It shows that he can teleport away from an attack at very short notice. This would be a perfect counter to Ra's - if Kurt wasn't taking Ra's with him when he teleported. If Ra's were trying to attack Kurt then he could probably teleport away in time to avoid the attack, but that isn't the strategy that CP presents. CP suggests that Kurt will be teleporting with Ra's.

If we look at the gif above, we can see that there is a period of time between Kurt disappearing and reappearing. Whilst he is in the midst of teleportation, there is a delay long enough for an average secret service agent to look around and point his gun at things. I've shown in my first post that Ra's is significantly faster than some average secret service agent, so it follows that he would also be able to react in the time between Kurt grabbing him and letting go of him. Note that Kurt can't let go of Ra's in the midst of teleportation, so he essentially has a free pass to attack him within this timeframe. Kurt can certainly tele-drop Ra's, but Ra's will kill him if he attempts that.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Even if that isn't the case and Kurt somehow survives, he's irrelevant against Blade. CP and I both agree that he doesn't have the means to put him down.

I'll concede Kurt doesn't have the striking power to put him down

I'd go one step further and suggest that he probably can't even hurt him given the durability feat below. Blade takes absolutely no damage from a hit far beyond what Nightcrawler can dish out.

No Caption Provided

He's also tagged an incredibly casual bullet-timer (Deacon Frost) with a thrown projectile before, so should have no problem putting Nightcrawler down, as his reaction speed isn't on par with Frost's.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

So even if Kurt somehow manages to survive against Ra's, he cannot hurt Blade and will be taken down without much difficulty.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So let's look again at why Blade beats Hawkeye at range.

In my opener, I expanded upon five reasons which I summarised as follows:

  • Blade has cover; Clint does not
  • Blade has ways of bypassing cover with projectiles that curve; Clint does not
  • Clint is occupied shooting Ra's according to CP's plan; Blade is focussed solely on Clint here
  • Blade is faster on the draw than Clint
  • Blade throws projectiles too fast for Clint to react to them.

CP's main response is that Blade will be immobilised by the electricity - I've already shown above why that isn't the case.

He also highlights that Clint's draw speed, stating the following:

Clint can fire off 3 arrows in 1.9 seconds

That's certainly impressive, but still not quite as good as Blade's blur-level draw speed.

No Caption Provided

It also doesn't consider all of the other factors in Blade's favour in this ranged fight.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

To summarise this section:

  • Ra's will be able to take out Kurt, as he takes time to teleport.
  • Even if Ra's doesn't defeat Kurt, he won't be relevant against Blade at all
  • Blade still beats Clint at range, as almost all of CP's counters to that section depend on him being immobilised by the electric traps

Conclusion

CP suggested at the end of his second post that there are three things I hadn't yet countered - Kurt's teleportation, Hawkeye's range and the electric traps. In this post I have dealt with all three of those factors and more. To summarise:

  • Blade won't be held by the electric traps for the five reasons given in that section
  • Ra's will take Kurt down with him as there is a period of time between him disappearing and reappearing
  • Even if Ra's doesn't take down Kurt at range, Kurt won't be relevant against Blade
  • Blade still beats Clint at range, holding five distinct advantages
Up next: the finales
Up next: the finales

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#37 Edited by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by Chronicplane (9182 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor: Sweet, so our next posts will be our last then we open for votes right.

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#39 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor: Sweet, so our next posts will be our last then we open for votes right.

Yeah, I think that's right. Not sure how long voting will be open for.

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#40 Posted by geekryan (4722 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor said:
@chronicplane said:

@jsdoctor: Sweet, so our next posts will be our last then we open for votes right.

Yeah, I think that's right. Not sure how long voting will be open for.

Will depend on how the votes roll in.

And don't worry about voters, I'll tag more and get more once we're ready to open for votes

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#41 Posted by geekryan (4722 posts) - - Show Bio
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#42 Posted by Chronicplane (9182 posts) - - Show Bio

Rebuttal/Closer #II | The Elite Assassinations Squad

No Caption Provided

So for this post I will be further defending my overall prep as well as counter any additional points my opponent as brought up with Blades durability and further nail in the coffin why I ultimately come out on top. Let's wrap this thing up shall we.

Addressing Blade and Ra's:

Clint does not tag T'Challa with an arrow here. Panther very clearly dodges the first couple of shots, and then catches the last two arrows. It's clear-cut arrow-timing. BP does get hit with an explosion form the arrows that he catches, but that's very different from Clint being effective enough to actually tag a bullet-timer with his arrows. There's no indication that T'Challa would have caught the arrows if he knew that they were explosive.

While he may not have tagged him in the traditional sense, his arrows(the explosives) did very well in fact tag Black Panther as it's shown and whilst T'Challa may have dodged the following arrows it was in fact all of Clints strategy to have him dodge those arrows as those ones were just ordinary arrows. What my point was here is that even against those who have bullet timed he's been able to tag through planned shots, indicating that with enough arrows he can eventually tag Blade with an effective arrow. This also further shows how far ahead Clint plans in advance, such as with the arrows which basically means he can land the shot.

This is not something that I'm doubting - I do believe that Clint can tag a falling Ra's with explosives, but I think that Ra's will take Kurt with him, a viewpoint that I'm going to defend later in the post.

I'll have to respectively disagree with the second part of this paragraph, tho just as you've said your gonna elaborate on your points within your later posts so I'll save my points for then.

Further Defense Towards Prep I:

Seems that with this section we both have different interpretations on, But I'll still stand by my point why Clint can in fact obtain the following equipment. So I feel this will come down to the voters on this section, but that doesn't mean I'll let certain points slide and will justify mine the best way possible.

CP shows that reaching a location isn't a problem for Hawkeye during prep according to the tourney rules, which is fair enough.That still doesn't change the fact that he doesn't know that SHIELD exists currently so wouldn't think to go to them, and it's doubtful that they would even have his arrows & gear.

I'm gonna say this which I should've went with from my previous post but what evidence is there that Clint doesn't know SHIELD exists, which there really isn't tbh and considering how resourceful and tactical he is it's most likely that he still stays in contact with them and just as I've said in my previous counter post with his rank and elite status and connections with SHIELD it really shouldn't be infallible for him to pull this off. With an hour of prep anywhere and morals off as well as Clints being an assassin, elite agent and soldier it should be very plausible for him to prepare as much as possible

My main overall point with this:

  • Thanks to Clint Bartons connections with SHIELD he should be able to reach them in order to obtain equipment
  • There's no evidence to suggest that he wouldn't know about SHIELD
  • Due to his resourceful, practical and tactical nature he would most likely still be in contact with them

Even then there's all the helicarriers that SHIELD has, such as the one Nick Fury had against the attack on sokovia when fighting Ultron. He could very well reach those, speaking off which it's also highly probable that Clint and Nick are still in touch(since Fury does still keep an eye out for the Avengers, as well as shown to care about them such as when he showed against Tony. It's highly likely he would have similar connections to Clint) with this he can very easily give him codes to some SHIELD bases or a helicarrier that would have this sort of gear.

Second, what evidence is there to suggest SHIELD wouldn't have arrows, ear pieces, stealth mask, knives and bullet proof vest(Basically low level tech and gear, hell even common police stations you can obtain just about everything I mentioned bar Arrows). Especially when SHIELD still keeps hydra weapons and gear that come from the 1940s in their storage department.

If your still skeptical that Clint can obtain gear(which he can) then fortunately there's another location in mind which he can fall back on that would most certainly have the stuff Clint would need.

Avengers: AoU (Clints secret house)
Avengers: AoU (Clints secret house)

It's very likely based on Clints resourcefulness and preparation prowess that he would have this sort of gear stashed away deep within his house(probably somewhere in his locked basement or something like that). Even if Clint couldn't reach SHIELD(which I've debunked and argue he would) he can travel here to get his secret arrow/gear stash. Now I can already guess what you and the general public maybe thinking.

"Clint would never take a stranger to his Secret hideout In-Character"

Ah but as you can see my friend I have the "Morals Off" perk which means Clint won't be like this. Even then he doesn't necessarily have to take Kurt in, just leave him at the battlefield or in the woods whilst Clint goes in and get what he needs which shouldn't take long at all. So either you slice it really Clint just as too many options to obtain equipment and little evidence to suggest he can't. Unless you want to claim that Clint wouldn't be prepared to fight by having gear stashed away in a secret volt which sounds kinda silly, I mean Tony had all of his suits stored in his houses basement, the same logic should apply here.

Further Defense Towards Prep II:

Given that the explosive arrow shown in the gif above blew a massive hole in the side of the Helicarrier, I think it's fair to assume that they're restricted for this particular tourney. With that being said, any smaller remotely detonated explosives that he may hypothetically have would be featless, as we've never seen them used.

Well obviously I wouldn't be allowed to use the large explosive arrows, never once did I say I would use them. My point here is that Clint isn't unfamiliar with explosive trap arrows as claiming he's never used them is kinda false given the example I've posted above. As for the second part, well to put it simply the idea is that he'll be using a similar type of explosive detonator and arrows just on a much smaller scale(which I've mentioned in my initial post). Your second point is kinda wrong as we have seen Clint use smaller explosives before as for given examples.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
AoU, Avengers Assemble and Civil War
  • The first example we see Clint use Close Range explosives against Ultron Fodder.
  • Second example we see him use explosive arrows during the Shield attack.
  • Third we see the infamous clip of him using small explosives against CW Iron Man.

If your still skeptical that Clint could use Small Explosive traps or at the very least remotely detonated explosives which that isn't the only showing for him.

Avengers Assemble (Not I'm not using the actual explosive shown, just as an example)
Avengers Assemble (Not I'm not using the actual explosive shown, just as an example)

Another example were he used remotely detonated explosives is against Loki, with you can see is a much smaller scale explosive in contrast to the other one. So it's highly likely Clint can use explosives traps. In fact he's even used smaller scaled explosives via a timer against T'Challa when he tagged him.

Even if we were to give them the feats from Hawkeye's regular smaller explosives, we have to consider the way in which they would be activated. The ones set up in prep time would be placed on the crates and stands and detonate when my combatants get close to them, not fired directly at them (those don't come into play until later in the battle). There are certainly no feats held by Clint's smaller explosive arrows to suggest that they could hurt someone on Blade's caliber of durability if they aren't fired directly at him.

Well fair enough about Blade, tho the same cannot be exactly said for Ra's as they would certainly do some good damage against him. Tho my main argument isn't to use explosives as a way on putting down Blade but electricity which you've already conceded on Clint would have here.

So the issues with these remotely detonated smaller explosive arrows are:

  1. We don't know that they exist.
  2. If they exist, they are featless.
  3. Even if they do exist and we grant them feats from Clint's other explosive arrows, they still don't have the feats to hurt Blade when they aren't fired directly at him.

1. On the contrary, there have been multiple times were Clint has used remotely detonated explosives.

2. Not really

3. They will at the very least be effective against the likes of Ra's who from what you've shown thus far would very well be in a bad condition. And just as I've said it's not the matter of explosives but electricity.

Now I want to address the issue of the electric arrows again.

In my first post, I brought up the fact that Vision should be particularly vulnerable to electricity. He is made of Vibranium, and I showed that Vibranium is consistently weak against electrical attacks using the example of Black Panther. The following was CP's response.

First of all what evidence is there exactly that supports this, BP being slowed down by BW's tasers. Throughout all of the MCU it has never been stated nor claimed that Vibranium is in fact vulnerable to electricity and your argument kinda sounds like headcanon from my point of view. I also feel if Vibranium did in fact have this major weakness it would be heavily pointed out in the MCU story-line which would've probably have been from it's debut in TFA. My point here is that while you could use this as a safe assumption it hasn't been flat out confirm.

We also see those with Vibranium get staggered and knocked back by various other things such as:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Captain America: TWS and Black Panther

So it's not exactly the first time, this version of Vibranium has shown multiple times to be exceptable to attacks. Even then my final point is that it's a feat for BW's tasers and less so an anti feat for the suit.

The way it translates to Blade is that incapacitating Vision is not particularly impressive. He mentions that Blade is potentially vulnerable to electricity (something that I will go on to counter), but Vision is significantly more vulnerable as he is made entirely of a material that is weak against electrical attacks. Incapacitating Vision is not a good enough feat to suggest that the traps can hold Blade.

No evidence to suggest this at all, and my initial point was that it's pretty obvious that Clints electric arrows are more powerful than your standard typical tasers which Blade was vulnerable too and incaping Vision with them is still impressive. And if we go by your logic then it'll only make Clints electric arrows more impressive seeing as standard tasers slowed down T'Challa whilst Clints not only did that but essentially froze in place Vision who is basically coated in that stuff.

CP also brings up the idea that the traps look powerful. Films dramatise electric attacks all the time so I'm not entirely convinced by this argument, but I'm now going to show why even if that is the case, they still won't hold Blade.

The idea that standard tasers > Clints electric arrows is just plain silly don't ya think. Like you honestly think your average IRL tech is superior to Shields tech. lol. I'm still not quiet following you here, there is no reason to suggest the movie producers made the arrows visually powerful "Just" so it looks cool, it's very clearly more advanced and a step ahead of modern day standard electric tasers, unless you want to suggest they aren't, tho this has been my argument since the beginning that they are more powerful than standard which was shown to counter Blade.

CP and I have different interpretations of this gif. I see it as impressive that Blade can tank around a dozen taser shocks. Even if that isn't the case and even if Blade is just as vulnerable to electric attacks as a normal human, here's why he can still tank the electric immobilisation net.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree, tho I still claim Clints electric arrows > Standard generic tasers which in the very gif did a number on him.

At 50% speed we can see that all of the taser strikes either hit blade where his skin is exposed (neck/arms) or on the unprotected parts of his torso. None of them hit the vest that he wears, and there is a very good reason for that - Kevlar offers protection from electricity. I've already shown that Blade's vest is Kevlar.

Furthermore, the coat that Blade wears as standard gear also offer him protection from electricity.

Leather is a great insulator - there's a reason why electricians typically wear leather gloves.

So between these factors, the trap will not generate the same full-body electric connection with Blade that it does with Vision.

My opponents argument here is that Blades Kevla suit will not only protect him but will completely nullify the effects of Clint Barton's electricity trap, this is great and all if Blade was hit with a taser on the front of his vest were he's covered in Kevla. However unfortunately you've seemed to have typed yourself in a corner here as I've previously established these aren't your traditional electric tasers.

No Caption Provided
Notice how the electricity isn't focused on just a specific part of the body, it's pulsing through all of Visions body. Plunging him in electricity basically
Notice how the electricity isn't focused on just a specific part of the body, it's pulsing through all of Visions body. Plunging him in electricity basically

Clints electric arrows aren't directly focused to a specific point like a taser does, it's essentially a large AOE of electricity. So whether or not you have a Kevla vest on doesn't change anything tbh. Blade still has parts of his body exposed such as most noticeably his head, eyes, ears, mouth.

Notice that his face and other areas of skill are in fact not covered and are exposed.
Notice that his face and other areas of skill are in fact not covered and are exposed.

With this being said all that the electric trap needs to take effect is just a small portion of skin and exposure, seeing as Blade as exposed parts wide open this shouldn't be an issue. So ultimately while you may have Kevla it chucks up to nothing against the sheer AOE of his trap.

TL;DR

  • Kevla is meaningless as Blade still had exposed parts of his body
  • The electric trap isn't pin point focused, it's a massive AOE trap
  • Blade will get caught in this, that exposed skin will be the Bane of Blades existence seeing as it pulses through the body

My opponent needs to prove that Blade can deal with the sheer AOE of the electric arrow(which thus far he hasn't shown), that Blade can break out of the trap(which he can't due to it's paralyses effects and his natural vulnerability to it) and also prove he can deal with being shot at by Clints arrows which are capable of piercing through the CW Iron Man suit while inside this trap which I find it difficult for him to achieve.

Of course, all this is assuming that Blade is even tagged by the trap.

They're three-pronged metal arrows with blue LEDs - not exactly inconspicuous.

Not really sure what your getting at here, the traps activate almost immediately after being triggered and you seem to forget your characters are essentially entering a fight they have no knowledge of nor what they're up against. I doubt he would be expecting such a trap nor be prepared to deal with it under these circumstances.

Of course, if Ra's is tagged by one of these first then Blade will be specifically on the lookout for them. And, given that Ra's has better travel speed (he moved faster than the eye can perceive to catch Thea when she tried running away from him), it seems likely that Ra's will be caught first as he will move into a trap first.

Tho fair, you seem to forget there won't be just one trap set in each part of the base. They're will be numerous traps planted out through out the map and seeing as majority of them would be electricity and the fact that Blade is basically the brawler of your team it's likely he would be taking the frontal assault which would ultimately get himself caught. Even then as I've previously mentioned I actually need to see Ra's use this form of speed in-combat which I don't think he would tbh. Blade's attention will also be drawn by Nightcrawler and Clints bombardment of arrows from above. I find it very doubtful he could deal with all of that. It also wouldn't make much sense of your team if the weaker of the two went ahead, more likely Blade being overconfident of his stats would charge forward.

And if Blade becomes aware of that happening (which he instantly will as one of my perks is a mind link between Blade & Ra's), then he'll take particular care to avoid the traps.

Again, I find this particularly unlikely as I've mentioned above. Nor do I find it likely he could deal with everything that's going on. Worth mentioning it's also possible Kurt could let's say teleport Blade into one of the traps. And the traps by Hawkeye will be placed behind obstacles, under cover so within the dark and with all the crazy that's going on he'll surely have his hands full to say the least. Another particular move my team would most likely have in store is up close electric traps as I'll show above.

AoU
AoU

Clint has in his quiver up close electric arrows he can use on the head, and whilst under normal circumstances Clint wouldn't be able to pull this off against Blade fortunately he can lend these arrows to Kurt and all he would have to do is slam it on the back of Blades head.

So to summarise my view on the electric traps, which are one of the main points of contention in this debate:

1. Ra's will probably be tagged by a trap first, and once he is then Blade will take specific care to avoid the same fate.

Quiet unlikely under these circumstances, Blades a brawler upmost and would more likely take the lead considering as a team he's stronger than the two and he would be confident in his stats. And keep in mind if you seriously argue Ra's would be taken out by the electric arrow then you've basically dug yourself into an even bigger whole as you would be undoing your strategy of taking out Kurt via Ra's(which I've established already that wouldn't happen)

2. Blade will be able to avoid the traps as they are visible.

Even if he can figure this out which would be very unlikely, my team has other alternative solutions to dealing with this. Such as:

  • Kurt tele-drop an electric arrow on the back off Blades head
  • Kurt teleporting Blade into an electric trap
  • Clint using his various tricks arrows can bait Blade into an electric trap
  • Traps will be hidden as they are planted
  • How would Blade without prior knowledge

Either way you slice it, If Ra's gets taken out by the electric traps that will only leave Kurt active for him to tele-drop Blade into an electric trap or smack one on his head and seeing as Blade doesn't have prior knowledge and wouldn't have seen the teleporter (as based on your argument, Kurt wouldn't need to as Ra's would be basically taken out by the traps) there's no reason why Kurt wouldn't be able to do this, and he'd most likely be able to seeing as he's bullet timed.

3. Blade probably has some natural electricity resistance.

All you've shown thus far is him being incapacitated by generic tasers, he maybe able to tolerate generic ones but that doesn't really change the fact that electricity is the bane of his existence.

4. Even if Blade does not have natural electricity resistance, he wears a full body-length coat that is an excellent insulator and will protect him from electric attacks.

Already addressed above, Kevla doesn't give you full protection and his exposed skin leaves him vulnerable. Nothing changes really, he still gets immobilized and likely in-caped by them, followed up with some nicely lined head shots from Clint.

5. The only feat that Hawkeye's electric traps have are incapacitating someone who is specifically vulnerable to electricity - this is not good enough to suggest that it can hold someone who is wearing clothing that protects him from electric attacks.

MCU hasn't flat out stated nor confirmed any of the sort, and the feat I've established should at least be able to suggest they're stronger than standard tasers which based on the feats you've shown should be more than enough.

How I see The Battle Unfolding:

Here I'll be refuting my opponents points about Ra's vs Kurt, how Kurt will play a relevant role in those fight and further nail in the coffin of Blades ultimate demise.

Let's interpret it at its absolute strongest for the sake of debate, and assume that Kurt is bullet-timing. It shows that he can teleport away from an attack at very short notice. This would be a perfect counter to Ra's - if Kurt wasn't taking Ra's with him when he teleported. If Ra's were trying to attack Kurt then he could probably teleport away in time to avoid the attack, but that isn't the strategy that CP presents. CP suggests that Kurt will be teleporting with Ra's.

Not really following you here, Ra's has absolutely no idea who he is fighting nor does he not know Kurt is a teleporter. Unless if you can prove he can swiftly adapt and counter in time, I don't see no reason why Kurt doesn't tele-drop him before he can figure out. All that Kurt needs to pull teleport him in the air and back is less than a few seconds and considering he has bullet timing speeds he should be able to pull this off. Your argument is that Ra's will stab Kurt as he's being bamfed into the air, and the first thing Kurts going to see on Ra's is a large blade which he should be able to easily avoid.

Overall, you haven't really refuted anything here. More so just went with the assumption that Ra's will be completely prepared as if he had prior knowledge of dealing with a speedster.

No Caption Provided

Further back you started making the argument that Ra's would get caught, if this were the case then all of this is practically meaningless and you've basically countered your own argument. The first scenario were Kurt teledrops him he likely survives in the process given his faster speeds, preparation and that Ra will simply not be prepared to deal with teleportation.

You also have yet to show Ra's could pull all of this off while he's being warped through Kurts teleportation and being placed in the air in combat. Because as of now you haven't shown any evidence which suggests this.

If we look at the gif above, we can see that there is a period of time between Kurt disappearing and reappearing. Whilst he is in the midst of teleportation, there is a delay long enough for an average secret service agent to look around and point his gun at things. I've shown in my first post that Ra's is significantly faster than some average secret service agent, so it follows that he would also be able to react in the time between Kurt grabbing him and letting go of him.

Note that Kurt can't let go of Ra's in the midst of teleportation, so he essentially has a free pass to attack him within this timeframe. Kurt can certainly tele-drop Ra's, but Ra's will kill him if he attempts that.

Multiple things worth mentioning here, first the exact time gap as we can tell is very minimal and Ra's would have to strike him at that exact point. Second, how would Ra's even possibly know that Kurts teleportation has this short gap to perform this and third how will he be able to perform this against someone who is significantly faster than him and again how would Ra's be prepared, if he had knowledge of Kurt or experience dealing with a teleporter then sure but thus far you haven't shown that. The speed gap between Kurt and Ra's should be enough for compensate for this.

Kurts overall speed and element of surprise will leave Ra's helpless as he's being dropped.

Even if Ra's does go straight for the strike with my establishment that Kurts speed is significantly greater there's no reason why he wouldn't be able to counter his attack by dodging, then followed up with teleportation.

I'd go one step further and suggest that he probably can't even hurt him given the durability feat below. Blade takes absolutely no damage from a hit far beyond what Nightcrawler can dish out.

He's also tagged an incredibly casual bullet-timer (Deacon Frost) with a thrown projectile before, so should have no problem putting Nightcrawler down, as his reaction speed isn't on par with Frost's.

So even if Kurt somehow manages to survive against Ra's, he cannot hurt Blade and will be taken down without much difficulty.

All which are impressive, there is still options for Kurt that he can take against Blade. For one, which I've previously mentioned he can teledrop him into one of Clints traps assuming he isn't in one already or can implant a sticky electric trap onto him. And from what you've shown I'm not entirely convinced he's outright faster than Kurt either, and on top of his speed he could surely avoid being hit by him.

So let's look again at why Blade beats Hawkeye at range.

In my opener, I expanded upon five reasons which I summarised as follows:

CP's main response is that Blade will be immobilised by the electricity - I've already shown above why that isn't the case.

He also highlights that Clint's draw speed, stating the following:

Already addressed most of this, and nothing really changes with the electric traps but let's just say for the sake of the argument Blade isn't caught in the traps and instead Ra's gets taken out by them this would still be in my favor for multiple reasons, being that it now turns into a 2 v 1 which gives me the numbers advantage and two Blade will now have to worry about being tele-dropped into an electric trap, even if Blade has the speed to take Kurt out it wouldn't happen before he falls into the trap.

That's certainly impressive, but still not quite as good as Blade's blur-level draw speed.

Well I was more so using this as an argument for swiftly dropping Ra's as he wouldn't be able to deal with it, and from what I can tell from the feat he launched all of them knives at that vampire before he dropped to the ground from like what 5 feet. Tho he did this slow mo so I'll concede he's quicker on the draw however I'd want to question Blades accuracy as that guy was particularly close to him, Clint is going to be like over 100+ feet in distance to him and covered in the dark as well, I have doubts he would be able to tag someone from that distance in the dark, even if he could see through the dark there's nothing stopping Clint from keeping mobile as he's shown to be capable of shooting arrows whilst moving at the same time.

To summarise this section:

- Ra's will be able to take out Kurt, as he takes time to teleport.

Already addressed and rebutted.

- Even if Ra's doesn't defeat Kurt, he won't be relevant against Blade at all

On the contrary, with his speed and teleportation he would most certainly be in combination with all the traps. Again, this is the assumption Blade wouldn't get caught which is very unlikely.

Blade still beats Clint at range, as almost all of CP's counters to that section depend on him being immobilised by the electric traps

Problem still remains, you haven't provided enough evidence to suggest he wouldn't be immobilized. And electricity can be applied in various other ways such as with sticky electrics or bamfing into a trap.

Initial Overall Summary/Conclusion/TL;DR:

Nothings changed from my opener and counter conclusion, which still stands. However will show how my opponents plan has backfired on him in this fight as for the following:

  • If by the off chance Ra's gets caught by the traps, it becomes a 2 v 1 were Kurt then just does either the following
    • Tele-dropping him into one of Clints electric traps
    • Bamf right behind and stick an electric trap on Blades forehead
  • Kurt is significantly faster based on Ra's arrow speeds and should be able to outreact him and live through his teleportation
  • There's more evidence suggesting Clint can obtain gear than the opposite, even then he has other locations he can go to obtain gear
Let's finish this
Let's finish this

@jsdoctor@geekryan Donzo. . .

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#43 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice conclusion, @chronicplane. Hopefully shouldn't be too long before I get my post up, and then we can open this up for voting.

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#44 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

Blade & Ra's Al Ghul (Post 3: The Torment of the Fire)

No Caption Provided

Forgive and have mercy upon him.

Excuse him and pardon him.

Make honorable his reception.

Protect him from the punishment of the grave... And the torment of the fire.

- Ra's Al Ghul

In this post, I will conclude my argument for Blade & Ra's. I intend to show not only why they win should my plan go ahead, but to provide even more 'even if' scenarios, just as I did in my last post. These will continue to consolidate why, even if aspects of CP's plan succeed, my team will still emerge victorious.

This post will be split into sections to address CP's specific points. With that said, let us begin this final bout...

Clint's Archery Against Black Panther

While he may not have tagged him in the traditional sense, his arrows(the explosives) did very well in fact tag Black Panther as it's shown and whilst T'Challa may have dodged the following arrows it was in fact all of Clints strategy to have him dodge those arrows as those ones were just ordinary arrows. What my point was here is that even against those who have bullet timed he's been able to tag through planned shots, indicating that with enough arrows he can eventually tag Blade with an effective arrow. This also further shows how far ahead Clint plans in advance, such as with the arrows which basically means he can land the shot.

Here CP presents an argument in favour of Clint's archery skills based on his showing against T'Challa. And whilst it is of course an impressive showing of his zoning capabilities, it is still important to remember that he only tagged BP with explosions from his arrows, and not in the traditional sense with the arrows themselves. What this means is that some of the showing was down to chance - if BP had dropped the arrows, or dodged them, or really done anything other than catch and hold onto them then he wouldn't have been hit.

The takeaway from this is that yes, Clint's zoning is impressive - but not impressive enough to tag Blade with a direct hit, or to deal with him easily. And maybe he could use this zoning and his explosives to tag Blade - if he weren't firing back. But Blade will be, which makes things far harder for Clint. I intend to do a very direct comparative of their ranged capabilities later in this post which will further address this issue, so I'll expand upon this there.

Prep Time I (Clint Obtaining Relevant Gear)

I'm gonna say this which I should've went with from my previous post but what evidence is there that Clint doesn't know SHIELD exists, which there really isn't tbh and considering how resourceful and tactical he is it's most likely that he still stays in contact with them and just as I've said in my previous counter post with his rank and elite status and connections with SHIELD it really shouldn't be infallible for him to pull this off.

CP suggests here that it is likely that Clint knows of SHIELD's continued existence. I'll respond to this in a few ways.

First, the burden of proof falls on him to prove that Clint does know about their existence. We don't simply assume that a character possesses a particular piece of knowledge unless there is something to suggest that they do. It is not my burden to prove that Clint doesn't know about them, in the same way that it wouldn't be my burden to show that any other character doesn't know about them. Given that we have no evidence suggesting his awareness of the organisation, we shouldn't assume that he knows about it. On the contrary, we should assume that he doesn't. But even if this isn't the case then here's why it's more likely than not that he doesn't have this awareness.

To almost everyone, SHIELD doesn't exist. As viewers of Agents of SHIELD will be aware, after a series of events involving LMDs the organisation was officially disbanded in Season 4. The organisation was underground throughout the entirety of Season 5, and the only individuals aware of it's existence were characters on the show (members of Coulson's team, HYDRA, the Kree, Remorath etc). Frankly, there is no reason why Clint would know of their existence. He believes that they were shut down by the government in Season 4.

They never contacted anyone in the Avengers, Cap's team or anyone else from the movies. In fact, there are explicit statements from the time when Infinity War was released that characters in the movies do not know of Coulson's ressurection after the first Avengers film. And it would be odd, to say the least, for them to know of Coulson's small team but not Coulson himself.

Finally, SHIELD isn't an expansive organisation anymore. Their headquarters, archives and everything other than their own individual gear were all seized by the government when SHIELD was shut down. Even if we assumed that Clint knew of their existence despite all evidence to the contrary, it's highly unlikely that they would still have his specific gear (though they would of course have general gear.)

Even then there's all the helicarriers that SHIELD has, such as the one Nick Fury had against the attack on sokovia when fighting Ultron. He could very well reach those, speaking off which it's also highly probable that Clint and Nick are still in touch(since Fury does still keep an eye out for the Avengers, as well as shown to care about them such as when he showed against Tony. It's highly likely he would have similar connections to Clint) with this he can very easily give him codes to some SHIELD bases or a helicarrier that would have this sort of gear.

This argument involves a lot of conjecture. We have no idea what Fury was doing before Infinity War - the last we saw of him (in the Captain Marvel prelude tie-in comic), he was speaking to an imprisoned Captain America about the possibility that Stark may need him. Much like Clint, there is nothing to suggest that he has ties to the current SHIELD. With the regard to the point about Helicarriers, Age of Ultron took place before SHIELD was disbanded and lost all of their resources - including, most likely, their Helicarriers. And even if Fury somehow had ties to SHIELD, and even if they somehow had access to bases and/or helicarriers, there's nothing to suggest that Clint would even know how or where to contact the highly secretive and off-the-radar former SHIELD director. The rules of the tourney state that Clint & Kurt can be teleported to any location they wish - that doesn't include things they don't know exist, or people whose whereabouts they have absolutely know idea of. But even they could get to Fury, there isn't anything to suggest that he would have access to SHIELD gear either.

It's very likely based on Clints resourcefulness and preparation prowess that he would have this sort of gear stashed away deep within his house(probably somewhere in his locked basement or something like that). Even if Clint couldn't reach SHIELD(which I've debunked and argue he would) he can travel here to get his secret arrow/gear stash.

Similarly, there's no reason to assume that he has a stash of his gear at the house that he made a significant effort to keep entirely separate from SHIELD, the Avengers and his work. This scenario is more likely than the previous two, but there's still a lack of evidence to support it. It's possible that he has some light gear at his house, but I'm unconvinced that he has the entire extensive list of gear set out in CP's opener.

Though, as with my previous posts, I'll continue to show why even if they acquire the gear my team would still win.

Prep Time II (Explosive & Electric Arrows)

In this section I'll be further addressing Clint's electric and explosive arrows, starting with the latter.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

With regard to explosive arrows, CP brings out a few examples of Clint using small-scale explosives. These are fine, and I have no issue with him using instantaneous small-scale explosives. He then presents another showing of a delayed explosive:

Avengers Assemble (Not I'm not using the actual explosive shown, just as an example)
Avengers Assemble (Not I'm not using the actual explosive shown, just as an example)

Another example were he used remotely detonated explosives is against Loki, with you can see is a much smaller scale explosive in contrast to the other one. So it's highly likely Clint can use explosives traps. In fact he's even used smaller scaled explosives via a timer against T'Challa when he tagged him.

Again, he himself states that he wouldn't be using this particular explosive due to it's large scale so we're still yet to see an arrow that is both small-scale (so allowed in this tourney) AND remotely detonated. We've seen small-scale ones, and we've seen remotely detonated ones, but we simply haven't seen them combined into one arrow. And even if he has them and even if we grant them feats from Clint's regular small-scale explosives then CP himself agrees that they won't do much against Blade as they won't be directly on him, but simply in the vicinity:

There are certainly no feats held by Clint's smaller explosive arrows to suggest that they could hurt someone on Blade's caliber of durability if they aren't fired directly at him. - JSDoctor

Well fair enough about Blade, tho the same cannot be exactly said for Ra's as they would certainly do some good damage against him. Tho my main argument isn't to use explosives as a way on putting down Blade but electricity which you've already conceded on Clint would have here. - Chronicplane

He argues that they could hurt Ra's, so let's look at some of these showings again. Remember that this is only relevant if small-scale, remotely detonated arrows exist and if we grant them these feats.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Of these three explosives, I'd say that only those from the latter two gifs are relevant here - the arrow in the first gif casually annihilated around five Ultron bots which can swim through concrete, so is probably above this level. Those in the latter two gifs are limited in AoE, so Ra's would have to be quite close for them to do damage. And given that the remotely detonated arrows we have seen Clint use (eg on the Quinjet) start beeping and flashing before they go off, someone on Ra's' level of speed should be able to move out of the way of them before they explode.

No Caption Provided

Simply put - for small-scale, remotely detonated explosives to be relevant here, we would have to assume four things.

  1. Clint can acquire them - possible though not certain.
  2. They exist - there hasn't been a single showing of him using small-scale, remotely detonated explosives in the MCU.
  3. They have the feats of regular small scale arrows - I don't see why we would assume this.
  4. Ra's won't be able to react to them - they're telegraphed attacks that he should be able to respond to.

Remember also that CP has agreed to them not being relevant against Blade.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The first thing I want to bring up is the showing of Clint's electric arrows against Vision. I have argued that Vibranium is consistently shown to be vulnerable to electricity in the MCU, and the following is CP's refutation to that argument:

First of all what evidence is there exactly that supports this, BP being slowed down by BW's tasers. Throughout all of the MCU it has never been stated nor claimed that Vibranium is in fact vulnerable to electricity and your argument kinda sounds like headcanon from my point of view. I also feel if Vibranium did in fact have this major weakness it would be heavily pointed out in the MCU story-line which would've probably have been from it's debut in TFA. My point here is that while you could use this as a safe assumption it hasn't been flat out confirm.

We also see those with Vibranium get staggered and knocked back by various other things such as:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Captain America: TWS and Black Panther

So it's not exactly the first time, this version of Vibranium has shown multiple times to be exceptable to attacks. Even then my final point is that it's a feat for BW's tasers and less so an anti feat for the suit.

As far as I am aware (I could be wrong, in which case please correct me) there have only been three instances of Vibranium VS electricity the MCU. One of these is BP VS BW, another is Hawkeye VS Vision and the third is another Hawkeye VS Vision instance that I don't think has been brought up yet. Here it is, for completion's sake:

Clint takes out Vision in the background
Clint takes out Vision in the background

This arrow took Vision out for about five minutes of the fight. The fact is that every single time MCU Vibranium has encountered electricity, it has struggled. That is consistent evidence.

As for the idea that it has to be explicitly stated for us to accept it as truth - if we accept this logic, surely CP's point about Clint having weapons on his farm falls apart? In fact, there is evidence to support my point here - there is none to support that point of CP's. Arguing that something has to be explicitly stated to be true detriments his case far more than mine.

Regardless, there is precedent in the MCU for weaknesses being shown and not stated. For instance, Thanos cannot use the gauntlet unless he closes his fist - this is something that has been explicitly stated by the Russo brothers, but was only alluded to in the film. We can also look at Thor's lightning cloak - it went away when Hela's blades hit him, and again wasn't present after Thanos & the Black Order beat him - it's consistently shown but never stated that if he is seriously hurt, his lightning cloak disappears. One of the great things about the MCU is that they consistently trust that they don't need to explicitly explain everything.

But let's, for a moment, consider the alternative. Let's consider that Vibranium isn't weak against electric attacks, and it really is just good feats for Hawkeye & Widow's gear. What would that mean? It would mean that Clint has arrows capable of seriously hurting a straight-up high-tier with him in the airport battle. They are on his person, yet he only uses them against Vision. Not against War Machine - not even against Iron Man, who he actually fights in the scene. If his electric arrows really were that good, then why would he use the less effective explosives?

Why would he distract Tony for Wanda to pull down cars on him? Things make far less sense if Clint's arrows really are just that good than they do if there's something else at play here.

And even if we ignore all of my arguments above, and all of the issues with that line of reasoning, then what do we see? Clint doesn't consistently use these arrows even when they would be incredibly useful - he will favour less effective small explosive arrows like he did against Stark.

So either Vibranium is vulnerable to electricity, or it's our of character for Clint to use these arrows effectively. The first option seems far, far more likely to me but either way, this hurts CP's argument.

[Completely unrelated sidenote: Every damn time I get a gif from that airport scene I end up rewatching the whole thing.]

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So what does that leave us with? The visuals of the trap. Here's CP's take on the matter:

The idea that standard tasers > Clints electric arrows is just plain silly don't ya think. Like you honestly think your average IRL tech is superior to Shields tech. lol. I'm still not quiet following you here, there is no reason to suggest the movie producers made the arrows visually powerful "Just" so it looks cool, it's very clearly more advanced and a step ahead of modern day standard electric tasers, unless you want to suggest they aren't, tho this has been my argument since the beginning that they are more powerful than standard which was shown to counter Blade.

I still claim Clints electric arrows > Standard generic tasers which in the very gif did a number on him.

Of course the trap is more powerful than a standard taser - it wasn't my intention to suggest otherwise, and I do apologise if my post came across that way. But there has to be a line somewhere - of course it's more powerful than one. What about two? Five? Ten, twenty, a hundred? It took around a dozen baton shocks to get Blade into the position where he was unable to fight back - can we really say, purely by visuals, that Clint's electrics are more powerful than a dozen electric batons? I just don't think that this holds up. And this was right after Blade found out that his mother was alive after he had believed her to be dead for his entire life - he was in a state of shock.

CP next argues that these will be effective on Blade despite his full-length electrically insulated coat and body armour:

Clints electric arrows aren't directly focused to a specific point like a taser does, it's essentially a large AOE of electricity. So whether or not you have a Kevla vest on doesn't change anything tbh. Blade still has parts of his body exposed such as most noticeably his head, eyes, ears, mouth.

Notice that his face and other areas of skill are in fact not covered and are exposed.
Notice that his face and other areas of skill are in fact not covered and are exposed.

With this being said all that the electric trap needs to take effect is just a small portion of skin and exposure, seeing as Blade as exposed parts wide open this shouldn't be an issue. So ultimately while you may have Kevla it chucks up to nothing against the sheer AOE of his trap.

The exposed parts of Blade's body are his head - and sometimes, when he's reaching out or stretching, part of his arms. This is not much. CP suggests that the traps will be just as effective if only hitting a small part of Blade's body - to me, this seems really counterintuitive. Surely they are more effective if they hit more of someone's body? Any physical trap - chains, cuffs, rope - will be harder to break out of if it is tying up a larger portion of someone's body. I don't see why the same wouldn't apply to this. So now we would have to assume not only that Clint's electric arrows are better than a dozen tasers - but that they're better than a dozen tasers even whilst only working on a small portion of someone's body.

We can take this a step further. What is there to suggest that it doesn't need to cover someone's whole body to immobilise them? And, even further: Why do we assume that it's effective against organic, or even non-Vision individuals? This would be a valid explanation for Clint only using them on Vision if, as he claims, Vibranium isn't vulnerable to electricity. Maybe it's not Vibranium, but Vision's unique physiology? Restraining a synthezoid is very different to restraining an organic being, and it seems more than possible that the arrows are designed specifically to interface with Vision's unique body. This could explain why they weren't attempted against, say, Iron Man. Though even if the argument in this paragraph doesn't stand, the argument in the previous paragraph is still more than enough to counter CP's argument here.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Let's look now at his final argument regarding these electric arrows:

Another particular move my team would most likely have in store is up close electric traps as I'll show above.

AoU
AoU

Clint has in his quiver up close electric arrows he can use on the head, and whilst under normal circumstances Clint wouldn't be able to pull this off against Blade fortunately he can lend these arrows to Kurt and all he would have to do is slam it on the back of Blades head.

The best feat that these arrows have is incapacitating someone with, at absolute best, good durability for an un-enhanced human. Even if Blade's showing against the electric batons is unimpressive then surely it is at least better than a standard human. A dozen tasers would do far more damage to a regular human than they did to Blade - given this, these close-up arrows would not be effective.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

To summarise:

  1. Vibranium is almost certainly vulnerable against electricity, making Clint's showing against Vision contextual.
  2. If they aren't, and we accept CP's argument that something has to be explicitly stated or shown for it to be true (which we shouldn't), then massive chunks of his argument become invalid. This would hurt him more than me.
  3. If Vibranium isn't vulnerable against electricity and Clint's electric arrows really are just that good, then he doesn't consistently use them in character when he should.
  4. There is nothing to suggest that the effect of Clint's arrows on a small, exposed portion of Blade's body is better than a dozen tasers - and that's if they're even effective against only a small part of an individual, and an organic individual at that.
  5. Clint's close-up electric arrows are far less effective by feats than his regular ones, so they certainly aren't relevant here.

Even if just one of those first four arguments is true, then CP's plan fails.

The Battle Itself

I've been doing each part of my post in a PM to myself, and CV kindly decided to eat this entire section so I'm typing it out for a second time now. This is irrelevant to the CaV, but I want to vent my frustrations anyway. At least all the gifs are already uploaded this time. Take two!

In my second post, I elaborated on why Ra's would be able to take Kurt with him, looking specifically at the gap that he consistently has between disappearing and reappearing. Here I'm going to deal with CP's refutations to that argument.

Not really following you here, Ra's has absolutely no idea who he is fighting nor does he not know Kurt is a teleporter. Unless if you can prove he can swiftly adapt and counter in time, I don't see no reason why Kurt doesn't tele-drop him before he can figure out. All that Kurt needs to pull teleport him in the air and back is less than a few seconds and considering he has bullet timing speeds he should be able to pull this off. Your argument is that Ra's will stab Kurt as he's being bamfed into the air, and the first thing Kurts going to see on Ra's is a large blade which he should be able to easily avoid.

Overall, you haven't really refuted anything here. More so just went with the assumption that Ra's will be completely prepared as if he had prior knowledge of dealing with a speedster.

First I want to deal with the idea that Ra's will be thrown off or confused. He's led the League for at least hundreds of years, and seen some stuff in that time. For instance, here he sees two people merge into one fiery person and fly off:

No Caption Provided

He just raises his eyebrows and moves on. Any argument that he'll be in shock simply isn't valid.

And setting the criteria that Ra's must have dealt with a teleporter before to do so here is odd, to say the least. It's not as if there's only one specific way of countering Kurt that he has to be aware of - he simply has to be able to tag him, which he can. Speaking of which, I want to deal with each of CP's points here individually.

Multiple things worth mentioning here, first the exact time gap as we can tell is very minimal and Ra's would have to strike him at that exact point.

Sure, it's minimal, but still more than enough time for Ra's to react. Let's look again.

No Caption Provided

In the delay between Kurt disappearing and reappearing, a secret service guard is able to get up, look around and point his gun. I've already shown in my first post that Ra's is far faster than an average guard. This isn't a one-off gap either - it's consistent, and CP doesn't present any gifs showing otherwise because Kurt's teleportation simply isn't instantaneous. And as he'll be holding onto Ra's for long enough to teledrop him, this is the length of time that Ra's will have to react.

Second, how would Ra's even possibly know that Kurts teleportation has this short gap to perform this

I don't see why he has to know. He doesn't need to know how long he has to react - once he is grabbed he will start to move, and he will have long enough to do this as I've already shown. He can react without knowing the amount of time he has to do so, and that's all he has to do - swing his sword.

Third how will he be able to perform this against someone who is significantly faster than him and again how would Ra's be prepared, if he had knowledge of Kurt or experience dealing with a teleporter then sure but thus far you haven't shown that

I've already established why Ra's won't be thrown off his game, and why he doesn't have to already have dealt with a teleporter in order to deal with one here.

There's no reason why he wouldn't be able to counter his attack by dodging, then followed up with teleportation.

There absolutely is a reason for this. Kurt has to be holding onto Ra's to teledrop him, so can't move out of the way or dodge his attack.

Ultimately, Kurt's teleportation has a fatal flaw: it isn't instantaneous, allowing Ra's to react during this timeframe. I've dealt with each of CP's arguments that suggest otherwise.

CP then presents a few uses for Kurt if he survives the initial assault on Ra's - these all rely on things that I've countered earlier in the post, so I won't repeat myself by doing so again.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Finally, I want to further address Clint VS Blade at range. This, in the end, is what the battle comes down to. Here is what CP had to say on the matter:

Tho he did this slow mo so I'll concede he's quicker on the draw however I'd want to question Blades accuracy as that guy was particularly close to him, Clint is going to be like over 100+ feet in distance to him and covered in the dark as well, I have doubts he would be able to tag someone from that distance in the dark, even if he could see through the dark there's nothing stopping Clint from keeping mobile as he's shown to be capable of shooting arrows whilst moving at the same time.

First, on the issue of the dark. Vampires in the Blade films can perceive the ultraviolet part of the electromagnetic spectrum so don't depend on visible light. They can see in total darkness, an ability which Blade shares. The dark won't be hindering him at all.

Now, on the issue of his accuracy at range. Let's first examine the showing below:

No Caption Provided

Blade effortlessly hits six moving targets across multiple levels of a building. I'm no expert in judging distance, but the overall path of this projectile seems to be around 80 feet, possibly more. If Blade is this incredibly accurate from that distance, then we can extrapolate it to say that adding another 20 feet or so won't throw him off to the point where he can't hit a single target.

No Caption Provided

The showing above also illustrates Blade's incredible accuracy. He hits three vampires in a single line, and manages to avoid a fourth standing directly next to them in the same line.

CP questions Blade's accuracy at range; the first feat feat in particular should deal with that. I now want to do an overall comparative of Blade VS Clint at range, comparing each factor.

FactorBladeHawkeye
Draw SpeedBlur-level draw speed.CP has conceded that Clint is inferior in this department.
Projectile SpeedBullet+ level speed, as casual bullet-timers are unable to react to Blade's projectiles.Arrow speeds, which are inferior to the speed of Blade's projectiles.
ManoeuvrabilityOn the ground, so able to manoeuvre easily.In rafters, so unable to manoeuvre easily.
CoverOn the ground with plenty of shelves and boxes for cover. Also has curved projectiles that can bypass cover.In rafters with little to no cover. Also unable to bypass Blade's cover.

The key takeaway from this is that the ranged fight won't be long, or drawn out. Blade will fire first, due to the better draw speed that CP and I agree he possesses. Blade will also tag Clint before the latter reacts, due to the incredible speed with which he can throw these projectiles. Ultimately, Clint doesn't stand much of a chance under these conditions and CP hasn't spent much time at all explaining why Clint would win at range.

Summary & Conclusion

Let's take everything I've analysed across all three posts and condense it into one conclusion.

  • It is doubtful that Clint will be able to obtain the gear that CP suggests he will.
  • CP and I agree that pre-set explosives aren't relevant against Blade, and I've shown why they won't be relevant against Ra's either.
  • Electric arrows aren't a factor because either they don't have the feats to affect Blade whilst only in contact with the small, non-covered part of his body or it isn't in character for Clint to effectively use them. With either of these options (though the first is far more likely), CP loses this argument.
  • Ra's won't be thrown off by Kurt, and will have enough time to tag him due to the delay in his teleportation and the fact that he will be occupied holding onto Ra's.
  • Blade will beat Clint at range due to his incredible draw speed & throwing speed.

I've expanded upon each of these reasons across my posts. Critically, I've provided a significant number of 'even if' scenarios and contingencies - showing why even if aspects of CP's plan succeed his team will still lose. He hasn't done so at certain key points throughout the debate - most notably, he spends little time exploring Blade VS Clint at range, which is the endgame for this battle. These are the reasons why, ultimately, Blade & Ra's will beat Clint & Kurt.

Thanks for Reading!
Thanks for Reading!
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#45 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

@chronicplane@geekryan- My final post is up! This is my first CaV to go to voting (I'm in the middle of one other which hasn't reached that stage yet), so I've enjoyed it regardless of the outcome.

Geekryan, will the winner retain their team going into the next round or will they be able to make a small alteration?

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#46 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Posted by Chronicplane (9182 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Posted by geekryan (4722 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor said:

@chronicplane@geekryan- My final post is up! This is my first CaV to go to voting (I'm in the middle of one other which hasn't reached that stage yet), so I've enjoyed it regardless of the outcome.

Geekryan, will the winner retain their team going into the next round or will they be able to make a small alteration?

Teams stay the same! However, if everyone moving on to the next round wishes to make some changes, I'll allow it

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#50 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor: Bro, about that, sorry to derail but just a quick update. I've pretty much finished the writing side of my rebuttal but I'm self editing to rework some of the rhetoric, doing source insertion and researching, I've found some really sweet feats for Bruce that I need conformations on ect and to try to apply logic and research to. Anyway when it's up I hope you enjoy it.