Street Level Live Action Tournament 2019 - Round 2 - ANTHP2000 vs. Ashrym (OPEN FOR VOTES)

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geekryan

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#1  Edited By geekryan  Online

@anthp2000

Character:

  • MCU Black Widow

Perks:

  • Full Knowledge (9)
  • 1 Day of Prep Anywhere (8)
  • Night Vision Goggles (3)
No Caption Provided

@ashrym

Character:

  • DCEU Deadshot

Perks:

  • Unlimited Ammo No Reload (10)
  • Full Knowledge (9)
  • 1 hour of prep on battlefield (1)

Tournament Rules

  • FOX characters are composite
  • Feats from tie-in comics are allowed
  • Standard Gear
  • Victory by KO, death, or incap only.
  • Everyone is in character but determined to win
  • Characters keep the knowledge they already have
  • Character personalities/history are a factor (i.e. Green Arrow and Prometheus will NOT get along if they are on the same team)
  • All bow/arrow characters come with a quiver of 20 standard arrows, 2 grappling hook arrows, 1 bola arrow, and 1 flashbang arrow
  • All guns are fully loaded but with no extra ammo or clips
  • Agents of SHIELD characters have their ICERS replaced with standard handguns (if it is standard for them)
  • No time manipulation of any kind will be allowed (i.e. from Eva Sharpe and Rip Hunter)
  • With prep, each individual character still needs to lose a majority to MCU Captain America, MCU Black Sky, CW Mirakuru Deathstroke, Titans Deathstroke, and FOX Beast in a 1v1 fight.
  • Prep takes place in a combined universe
  • If you choose a gear perk for a character that has never used the gear, they will not automatically have mastery over the gear
  • No outside help is allowed into the battlefield (i.e. you can't bring in fodder or other characters from prep)
  • You must have at least 500 posts or have completed a CaV/Tournament in order to participate
  • 3 posts each with a 14 day limit per post. You will be bumped after 7 days. Extensions may be allowed if you tell me and your opponent before the 14 day limit is over.
  • Link to the tournament sign-up thread

Voting Rules

  • Only the two participants are allowed to debate
  • If you want to be tagged to vote at the end, say "T4V"
  • Vote for whoever was the best debater, or who convinced you more, not for which team you think would win
  • Make sure to provide reasoning for your vote
  • Votes based on obvious character bias will not be counted
  • Be respectful, honourable, and civil

Battlefield

Starting distance is 100 feet. Out of view from the other team. Opposite sides of a dark warehouse:

No Caption Provided

Assume that the height of the warehouse is 100 feet. As pictured, there is a metal bridge spanning the length of the warehouse.

Best of luck!

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geekryan

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ANTHP2000

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Oooh.

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ComicGirl21

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@anthp2000: damn. Best of luck man. You're gonna need it.

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ANTHP2000

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@ashrym: Who do you wish to go first? I'm fine both ways. I'll prolly take my time since it's the holidays.

Good luck in advance!

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King-Ragnar

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I'm voting for Anthp

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ANTHP2000

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@king-ragnar: Can't you just wait till we're done for once.

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Ashrym

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@anthp2000: You can start if you like. You have more prep. I understand the holidays and expect to be pretty busy too.

If you don't have a post by the time I get to it then I'll just go ahead.

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#9 geekryan  Online
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Ashrym

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Introduction

No Caption Provided

Bio:

Floyd Lawton is a professional hitman and assassin in the DCEU. He's considered an expert in all firearms and a skilled hand-to-hand combatant, and has only ever missed a single target -- Batman. His young daughter intervened to protect Batman, after which Batman brought him into custody. From there Deadshot was inducted into Amanda Waller's Task Force X, "the Suicide Squad".

Deadshot's typical equipment includes his customized AR 15 assault rifle, dual wrist mounted mini-machine guns, and multiple custom side arms for backup. He wears body armor and uses a high tech eye piece to improve targeting. The eye piece is linked to his weapons and cameras.

Preparation

This is pretty straight forward. Deadshot has access to small cameras linked to his targeting eye-piece that he can also use as a reflective surface for richochet shots. Deadshot has full knowledge of Black Widow, and her perks. He uses this knowledge to light the pallets on fire so that the heat can mask his body temperature from her goggles perk.

He has an hour to plan the best locations to maximize his options. Deadshot judges his angles right down to the curvature of the earth. The range on his ricochet is from the point of the actual ricochet and not his distance to the target. Deadshot is high up on a roof top while the deflection point is down low in an alley some distance away.

The cameras only take seconds to mount and adjust. The rest is planning when he is ex special forces with plenty to demonstrate his understanding of those angles. There is no place in the warehouse Widow can be located where she cannot be tagged with a kill shot because of Floyd's accuracy and richochet shots.

The Initial Attack

Deadshot is lethal at 4000 meters (~2.5 miles). He's ricochet is lethal and accurate easily shown with a 38 yard shot after the richochet in his feats, which is farther than the initial encounter distance.

The fires brighten up the area to restrict Widow's ability to use stealth and gives Deadshot cover from the NV/Thermal goggles. Deadshot can use the shelving, pallets, and catwalks for cover from Widow's firearms plus his own body armor. She needs to close to make effective use of combat skill or her stings and she will not have that opportunity because Deadshot bypasses her cover via ricochets with his lethal shots an any range in this area.

That's enough for now.

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@ashrym: Excellent. I'll get back to you ASAP.

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#14  Edited By ComicGirl21

Interesting. T4V

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#15 geekryan  Online
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#16 geekryan  Online
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#18 geekryan  Online
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@geekryan: No seriously I'll try to post within these 2 days. I'll definitely make the deadline.

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#20 geekryan  Online

@anthp2000: Final bump.

You got until tomorrow night! But it's your opener, so just copy > paste your last opener with some edits lol

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#21 geekryan  Online
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@geekryan: It will be up by night time, no worries. In a few hours.

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#23 the_magister  Online

GOAT ANSJW

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#24  Edited By ANTHP2000

Counters I: Opening Post

No Caption Provided

Most likely everyone reading this is familiar with the MCU and Black Widow's training and general history, so I'll skip that part to avoid a big post. To start off, here's a fresh theme for the match.

I. Perks. Prep Time. Equipment.

The perks I've picked for this are full knowledge on my opponent's character, a day of prep time in any location of my choice - with direct access to the battlefield - and a set of night vision goggles. First off, let's be clear on what knowledge Widow has on her opponent here: his full biography, abilities, skills, powers, weaknesses, equipment and track record. She is also aware that Floyd will prep in the battlefield before the fight and that he has full knowledge on her just as she does on him.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, for my prep time, I'll place Natasha inside the Triskelion, S.H.I.E.L.D.'s primary HQ. We'll take a different approach here for the best: Natasha knows Deadshot is more than reliant on his tech. The most obvious, and yet pretty much uncounterable, strategy would be to bring in an EMP and shut down every piece of tech in the warehouse, including the lights and both Floyd and Natasha's own electronic equipment. Keep in mind that S.H.I.E.L.D. agents often do rely on EMPs for OPs, both techies and specialists like Black Widow:

  • Leopold Fitz uses a miniature EMP he picked up from the Hub to shut down the electronics of an entire building [1] - Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. S1E07 'The Hub'
  • Mockingbird uses a custom EMP to shut down the power of the entire Playground, S.H.I.E.L.D.'s second largest and most advanced HQ [2] - Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. S2E15 'One Door Closes'
  • S.H.I.E.L.D. has even embedded EMPs on Hawkeye's specialised trick arrows [3] - Marvel's The Avengers S.H.I.E.L.D. Files: Hawkeye, [4] - Marvel Studios Visual Dictionary

So it's clearly pretty easy and straightforward for Natasha to get her hands on one of those. Which leaves us to more traditional military weapons to use in battle, as well as a custom sniper riffle of hers, an M249 SAW, equipped with a scope and an RM M203 grenade launcher set. She's going to put silencers on her glocks and carry full reloads for her weapons.

Finally, Natasha has a habit of concealing Glocks around the environment to use in case she needs one, as we see her do before she recruits Bruce Banner and before Stark's house party. Firearms spread on the battlefield will make sure she never runs out of ammo, while also saving time from reloading. From there on, she's getting herself in a sniping position and waits.

II. Firearms. Stealth. Tactics.

After the EMP's set off, the setting is pretty simple: the burning pallets you set up are the only source of light, and all Deadshot has in his arsenal are firearms and a penetrable armor. Due to this, stealth, awareness and tactics are gonna be crucial here, and I definitely think Widow has the edge in those categories. But before that, I wanna establish her skill in firearms: Natasha's both a trained sniper and a crazy good general hitwoman, who can consistently shoot while both her and the target are in motion.

Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015)
Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015)

In the flashbacks from Age of Ultron, we see a young Natasha training at shooting range in the Red Room. Take note because it's hard to see what she does without going over it again (here's frame by frame). She lands 2 headshots, she then switches arm and goes for a '10' and a '9' shot. The second quick switch between her arms is not a continuing part of the same sequence - it's a new shooting range with a new target, where in less than a single second she replicates the 4 shots we see her landing beforehand (2 headshots, a '9' and a '10') plus an additional fifth one on the '9 points' range. So not only did she land 5 shots in brief moments/a split second, they were also extremely precise shots, 4 of them actually hitting the exact same spots of the previous ones.

Captain America: The Winter Soldier (2014)
Captain America: The Winter Soldier (2014)

Natasha crosses the bridge's width to the other side and hides from Bucky, who while above her targets Cap's position. Just in time, Nat pops up and takes a shot at him, hitting his goggles. A couple of things to note here: Natasha had zero line of sight on him, so she used his shadow to calculate his position and succesfully quickscope him in the face - the fires you set up make this feat all the more relevant in this scenario. Unfortunately most of his face was covered in bulletproof material so he survived. Anyway, this does not only show exceptional precision, but also good tactics. Another thing to note is the draw speed/rapid firing here. Again, it's too fast to catch with a blind eye, but for a split second after Bucky's goggles are shot, we see Natasha's already shot 5 more times in that direction - once again, in less than a single second. The first one did hit the target, the others were less accurate for obvious reasons that cannot be used against her considering the target wasn't in her line of sight.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

She's also very stealthy, described as someone who can 'disappear in plain sight'. While Loki is walking up and down his cell, Natasha pops up in front of the entrance. Notice that a moment before she's nowhere to be seen inside the room, as well as the fact that someone like Loki - with situational awareness good enough to catch arrows in mid-air without looking - couldn't tell she ghosted him until she reached her wanted position in front of him. He even notes not many people can sneak up on him.

So awareness is also very important, and I don't think Floyd can catch Natasha off guard.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While fighting Bucky, Natasha has ran out of ammo, so she's forced to flee and go stealth mode. She sets up a recording of her voice calling SHIELD for backup behind a nearby car, knowing Bucky's gonna be on the lookout for her. He takes the bait and attacks that car, giving Natasha a clean shot. She charges from the opposite direction, disarms him and attempts to strangle him (which if it was Deadshot instead of the Winter Soldier), would've been easy to accomplish). Now, the electronics are shut down here, but Natasha can still use her grenades to achieve similar results and distract Floyd - wether he's gonna fall for it or not doesn't matter as much as the fact that he's gonna get distacted giving Natasha the right opening to gun him down.

I also wanna take note of her general use of the battlefield, for instance when she had to survive in an enclosed space with the Hulk she improvised in a moment's notice and shot the steampipe above his head to blindside him.

III. Conclusion

Once the EMP's set, I think Natasha has an overwhelming amount of advantages in this fight, juxtaposed to Floyd's own, that are basically accuracy and ammo, or to be precise, the amount of ammo he posseses. However he has to deal with:

I don't feel the need to post any CQ feats to prove that Natasha would make short work of Floyd up close, if you want to I can. I think she can end this even before that point though. Unlike in the previous round, knowledge isn't one sided here - something very exploitable.

@ashrym you're up!

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ANTHP2000

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@comicgirl21: Post is up, sorry for the wait.

@geekryan: Am I allowed to use trailer feats for this or the next round if I pass?

@ashrym: I will admit that this is closer than your wick Chuck Norris posts.

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#26 geekryan  Online

@anthp2000: I'm going to say no to trailer feats, sorry

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@anthp2000:That was an awesome post. You've under-estimated Floyd's armor, though; and other things. ;-)

Counters

The first big one is the claim that Widow shot Winter Soldier in the face. I'm going to see more to back that up. It looked to me like all the shot were hitting the concrete you showed later and that he was simply ducking behind cover. I could be wrong, of course, and understand that, but I still need to see the bullet actually hitting Winter Soldier or some other evidence.

I do not disagree that Widow is a highly skilled shot, H2H combatant, or stealthy. There seems to be some relevant missing information, however.

First and foremost, she's not demonstrated to be on the same playing field and Lawton. His range and accuracy dwarf hers, and his quick draw is comparable except he neither needs to draw (wrist mounts) nor reload (opportunity for his shots).

The other big one is in pointing out Widow's armor and claiming Lawton's is penetrable. Floyd wears bullet-proof armor.

Suicide Squad: Behind the Scenes with the Worst Heroes Ever -- Signe Bergstrom
Suicide Squad: Behind the Scenes with the Worst Heroes Ever -- Signe Bergstrom

It's not just costume design telling us this. The Eyes of the Adversary (AE's) were being converted from the military that were there as well as the SEAL's that originally arrived with the Squad.

Suicide Squad: Behind the Scenes with the Worst Heroes Ever -- Signe Bergstrom
Suicide Squad: Behind the Scenes with the Worst Heroes Ever -- Signe Bergstrom

The EA's were using the military grade weapons that were brought in against them. That's why they (the Squad) were shot down coming into Midway.

No Caption Provided
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman

The novelization gives context to the movie. We already knew the armor was meant to be bullet-proof. Context from the novelization his it stopping the highest military grade available. Meanwhile, Widow's armor is flexible so it may stop penetration but it does not stop impact damage. Lawton is also covered head to toe. Widow is covered from the neck down. She was looking a bit rough in that scene you posted with the Winter Soldier. Widow would die pretty quick from a head shot based on Deadshot's capability and he knows all her armor's weak points to boot. There's no way she stands a chance in straight up ranged combat between the two.

That brings up the stealth discussion. Using prep to pull EMP's is a smart move to kill some of Floyd's tracking abilities with it, but he doesn't need the long range capabilities the tech gives him in a place this size. Deadshot can also play cat-and-mouse.

Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
No Caption Provided
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman

In this scene Deadshot had made it through all of the extra security for this high profile case, avoided detection from the security prior to the witness arriving and the marshals checking out the area before bringing the witness out of the vehicle, continued a conversation and waiting for a bank deposit after his window-of-opportunity timer had already gone down to 5 seconds, made a split second shot under those circumstances that was also misleading from where it was fired faster than his targeting software was shown to update, was already at his get away vehicle by the time the target hit the ground, and long gone before the marshals even confirmed the kill. That was done in broad daylight. Lawton has cover and darkness in this match.

The only thing Lawton needs to do is apply a bit of misdirection. Widow is perching in a vantage point looking for Lawton while he is mobile and using cover down below. As long as he keeps mobile using his own stealth skills, uses the flames to hide his muzzle flashes, and richochets shots to look like they are coming from elsewhere (to draw her attention) aiming those richochets anywhere a person might be perching (he is aware of her character) he'll eventually hit her or draw her out. Or smoke inhalation will eventually cause her to start coughing. Smoke rises.

Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman

Deadshot can draw and load fast enough to drop five supermax guards before they can pull a trigger before he's even picked up the weapon. He made a conscious choice not to on the off chance the sixth might be able to pull the trigger and hit him (while he is not wearing his armor) knowing he would still not escape. He's always calculating, always thinking tactically, focused on the real goals, and given a single slip -- any slip -- from Widow he is not going to miss a kill shot.

Conclusion

There's no doubt that Widow is impressive. When it comes to a sniper fight Deadshot is better with or without the camera's and monocle. He impressed that elite team of SEALS, Rick Flag, and Amanda Waller when Waller has statements that Flag is the best soldier in the world and greatest tactician she has ever known.

Widow has over a decade worth of movies and tie-ins from which to draw feats. Deadshot has been in one movie, has a book behind-the-scenes regarding that same movie, and has a book that is the same movie from which to draw context or confirmation. Give him more movies and I predict the impressiveness only goes up. ;-)

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@ashrym: That's a fantastic post. I'll get back to you ASAP.

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#31  Edited By ANTHP2000

Counters II

I. Firearms. Armor.

First of all, I'll mention that I agree that Floyd is a miles better shot than Natasha (pun intended just a little bit). What I disagree with, is how relevant this is next my own character's advantages. To get some things out of the way first,

The first big one is the claim that Widow shot Winter Soldier in the face. I'm going to see more to back that up. It looked to me like all the shot were hitting the concrete you showed later and that he was simply ducking behind cover. I could be wrong, of course, and understand that, but I still need to see the bullet actually hitting Winter Soldier or some other evidence.

You missed it in the gif I guess. He was shot and his bulletproof goggles saved him, hence he takes them off after. I've broken down how impressive this feat is, and it shows Natasha can be just as calculative about her shots as Floyd. To hit a target out of your line of sight using their shadow shows both awareness and knowledge in angles and advanced marksmanship, and it's also a valid strategy here considering Deadshot's position should be exposed next to the fires.

Apart from this, Widow's range and accuracy isn't at all lacking. Here, for instance, she takes a headshot on an armor of the Iron Legion at what's easily 50-60 ft. distance:

Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015)
Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015)

For reference, here's the scene. We see her covering Banner and climbing the stairs to the balcony opposite to the one the armor Tony jumps on is, so basically the opposite end of the room at Avengers Tower. And in the same sequence, we see her landing a headshot on another moving armor attacking her, even without looking, so she can successfully drop targets in motion too.

And I've already shown she is armed here with a sniper riffle with a scope, we've seen her pinpointing a target from a distance where she isn't even visible. The point is, yes Deadshot can shoot from farther away, but does it matter here that he's lethal from 4,000 meters? Neither fighter here is going to miss their shots because they're both masters, what's mostly going to matter are other categories, which you haven't adressed yet. We'll look at those right after one more thing, draw speed. You mentioned this:

his quick draw is comparable except he neither needs to draw (wrist mounts) nor reload (opportunity for his shots).

It's true that Floyd's wrist magnums allow for higher draw speed than Natasha's firearms in general, but the difference between them here is that Natasha has scenes demonstrating faster draw speed than Floyd, even with that small disparity in mind. In the GIF I posted in my opener of her training in the Red Room, she drew a glock and made 5 pinpoint accuracy shots all in less than a second. I recall Deadshot being very fast, but I don't recall he's this fast. She's trained to draw her glock in a tiny fraction of a second, and she's trained to pull the trigger in an even more tiny fraction of a second - this should suffice to say Deadshot's wrist magnums don't grant him enough of an advantage.

As for the reloads, well, with 34 handgun bullets and a fully armed riffle, I doubt she's going to have to reload before one of the two gets shot, and I've also covered the battlefield with concealed firearms to use without the need for reload.

Deadshot can draw and load fast enough to drop five supermax guards before they can pull a trigger before he's even picked up the weapon.

That's impressive, but nothing out of Natasha's capabilities unless any of these guards can draw and shoot in a fraction of a second, which I doubt they can. And it's worth noting that picking up the weapon he would use to gun them down shouldn't be taken into account because they would allow him to do that without suspicion regardless, since he was there to be tested on his gun skills. I'd also like to mentioned a couple of other showings: [1] - Natasha could deflect an arrow from Hawkeye at point blank range with her gauntlets and [2], she could draw and make 2 pinpoint shots dual wielding while outpacing automatic gunfire.

Most you can really argue regarding draw speed between them is parity, which I'm fine with since Floyd is pretty impressive in his own right, but he isn't faster by any means. Now, one final thing you haven't addressed yet is firepower; Natasha will be carrying a monster of an RPG in this fight, and Deadshot cannot hope to survive if he's anywhere near this radius. Even if he doesn't get killed because of an indirect shot, he'll get dropped and gunned down.

The other big one is in pointing out Widow's armor and claiming Lawton's is penetrable. Floyd wears bullet-proof armor.

I'm aware of Deadshot's bulletproof suit, but it is still penetrable because, as I've listed in my opener, Widow has access to armor piercing bullets, which are the highest caliber of bullets you can carry, and they do just as their name suggests; they are made to penetrate bulletproof material, traditionally kevlar. This is ammo Floyd has no access to, so even though they are both covered in bulletproof material, my character has ammo rendering yours useless.

Of course if Natasha gets shot she won't no sell it, that's not the purpose of bulletproof armor. As noted in the lines from the novel you posted, Deadshot couldn't no sell it either, they "hurt like hell", he just powered through.

II. Stealth. Positioning. Tactics.

First thing you brought up is Deadshot's introduction scene from Suicide Squad. While this does highlight how dangerous and efficient Deadshot is as an assassing, it's not really the cat and mouse tactics he needs here. It's pretty clear cut what he does there, he waits, takes the shot from high ground where he isn't visible to any of the target's security and quickly escapes from the back. It's good, however it doesn't show the ninja-like stealth required to keep up with Widow at this. If Loki or the Winter Soldier couldn't help getting ghosted by her, why is Deadshot going to be any different? She can either sneak behind him at a distance and shoot him/blow him up or close in and beat him down hand to hand or garrotte him.

The only thing Lawton needs to do is apply a bit of misdirection. Widow is perching in a vantage point looking for Lawton while he is mobile and using cover down below. As long as he keeps mobile using his own stealth skills, uses the flames to hide his muzzle flashes, and richochets shots to look like they are coming from elsewhere (to draw her attention) aiming those richochets anywhere a person might be perching (he is aware of her character) he'll eventually hit her or draw her out. Or smoke inhalation will eventually cause her to start coughing. Smoke rises.

A few things here, firstly, if I wasn't clear enough, Widow's not gonna be sitting on a vantage point the whole fight. If Deadshot survives the initial assault from her in the position of a sniper, she's going to go stealth mode to take him out.

One more thing worth noting is that full knowledge isn't one sided here; Widow knows Deadsdhot as much as he knows her. She's fully aware of his ricochets, and unlike him, she's shown a lot of use of misdirection and tactics. Sure in theory Floyd could pull a strategy like that, but he's up against a person with plenty of experience and a brain that operates fast enough to prevent the assassination of both her and two more Avengers from an elite secret super-assassin ambushing them in a moment's notice inside a moving car. The same person that faked getting blown up behind cover to switch positions and catch the Winter Soldier off guard to shoot him in the face. I've also shown a couple of instances of Natasha using misdirection and abusing the environment, which Floyd hasn't really done before on screen, I think overall it's more likely he will lose this exchange than win it.

III. Conclusion.

I stand by my initial claims: Deadshot is undoubtely the superior marksman, but that's more or less all he has on Black Widow. I don't see him having a reliable counter to her level of firepower or her stealth. To add to that her combination of armor/ammo outdoes his. She's a master markswoman and sniper on her own right, so she isn't going to miss shots at any reasonable distance inside the warehouse. If the initial assault fails, which I haven't seen enough from Deadshot to suggest it will, she can play cat and mouse and take him out from the ground. Either way, she should win more often than not.

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#33 BOC  Online

>Anthp

>Making short posts

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@boc: Is nothing good enough for you?

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So much female wank

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A Final Post

Some counters.....

You missed it in the gif I guess. He was shot and his bulletproof goggles saved him, hence he takes them off after.

It's not really missed so much as your analysis is presumptuous. I was asking to see the bullet hit the face piece because taking it off can just as easily be an emotional response from an attack he was not expecting. Look at that scene again. You are arguing her accuracy based on a shot that you claim struck the face piece with snipers take forehead shots that was not protected in ignoring all the shots she fired that didn't hit him at all as seen in the shots hitting the cement. That's a low accuracy rate with what almost looks like a stray shot hitting him based on the number of shots fired compared to the number of claimed hits.

Plus, Lawton's bullet proof mask covers his entire head, not just part of his face.

Apart from this, Widow's range and accuracy isn't at all lacking. Here, for instance, she takes a headshot on an armor of the Iron Legion at what's easily 50-60 ft. distance:

That doesn't actually look like 50-60 ft to me. A bit over estimated, but a minor detail given we're looking at 100 ft starting distances in the battlefield. Accuracy shown at less than that distance doesn't help demonstrate her killing shots.

I recall Deadshot being very fast, but I don't recall he's this fast.

That's why I quoted a novelization to give it context and demonstrate, much like using comic tie-ins. ;-)

As for the reloads, well, with 34 handgun bullets and a fully armed riffle, I doubt she's going to have to reload before one of the two gets shot, and I've also covered the battlefield with concealed firearms to use without the need for reload.

Weapon swapping takes enough time for Lawton to take shots during the swap when he doesn't need to trade out weapons. That's an opportunity he won't waste.

I'd also like to mentioned a couple of other showings: [1] - Natasha could deflect an arrow from Hawkeye at point blank range with her gauntlets and [2], she could draw and make 2 pinpoint shots dual wielding while outpacing automatic gunfire.

Non-casual arrow timing is not bullet timing by any stretch, and the "outpacing automatic gunfire" was keeping on the move while presenting a harder target against less skills shooters. That's not a concern here. I'll point out that Widow does not demonstrate abilities like that in the movies as well. That's why I included novelization context to demonstrate his draw speed you were writing off. ;-)

Deadshot did actually demonstrate that draw speed in the his fight against Batman.

Now, one final thing you haven't addressed yet is firepower; Natasha will be carrying a monster of an RPG in this fight, and Deadshot cannot hope to survive if he's anywhere near this radius.

That's why the demonstration against Incubus came up in the first posts. Incubus casually destroyed subway support columns and military choppers. Deadshot's armor protects him from the shrapnel, and from the impact like it did this blow from Incubus. Floyd's expression of pain in the scene is relevant because the book demonstrated the blow actually busted his ribs and he completed that fight against Enchantress ignoring those busted ribs.

Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman

That legitimizes taking Incubus's attack so that it's not just PIS and also demonstrates more of the pain tolerance Lawton demonstrates repeatedly.

I'm aware of Deadshot's bulletproof suit, but it is still penetrable because, as I've listed in my opener, Widow has access to armor piercing bullets, which are the highest caliber of bullets you can carry, and they do just as their name suggests; they are made to penetrate bulletproof material, traditionally kevlar. This is ammo Floyd has no access to, so even though they are both covered in bulletproof material, my character has ammo rendering yours useless.

They are not both covered in bullet proof material. Deadshot is covered. Widow is covered from the neck down. She doesn't survive a headshot.

Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman

Those EA's are shooting with every state of the art weapon available to the US military and designed for maximum damage as shown in my earlier quote. There's no indication simply using Kevlar piercing round exceeds what Deadshot's armor already demonstrated blocking. He already demonstrated the pain tolerance to deal with the impact in my second post.

Of course if Natasha gets shot she won't no sell it, that's not the purpose of bulletproof armor. As noted in the lines from the novel you posted, Deadshot couldn't no sell it either, they "hurt like hell", he just powered through.

He can power through a hit. She cannot tank a headshot. That's an "end of story" fact. ;-)

It's pretty clear cut what he does there, he waits, takes the shot from high ground where he isn't visible to any of the target's security and quickly escapes from the back.

How do you think he got in to that position and than out of it again in the first place? He got to a selected point of extreme advantage because of his skill in that department as well has demonstrating his abilities with exit strategy.

She's fully aware of his ricochets, and unlike him, she's shown a lot of use of misdirection and tactics. Sure in theory Floyd could pull a strategy like that, but he's up against a person with plenty of experience and a brain that operates fast enough to prevent the assassination of both her and two more Avengers from an elite secret super-assassin ambushing them in a moment's notice inside a moving car.

The misdirection was shown in the US Marshals having no idea where the shot came from. Therefore, it's not a theory. The brain operation speed is a meaningless statement. Labelling the "elite secret super-assassin ambushing..." is reaching. It was a definitely an impressive assassin but he was shooting blind through the roof of the car.

If Loki or the Winter Soldier couldn't help getting ghosted by her, why is Deadshot going to be any different?

Deadshot is not Loki or Winter Soldier, and the ghosting is over-stated. She's good, but Loki definitely detected here from inside his cell while his back was turned before she revealed herself. Deadshot is tracking enhanced speed EA's the entire movie and not always with his eyepiece.

Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman

Deadshot is keeping track of and destroying physically enhanced citizens, police offices, military, and special forces. I am not sure I conveyed his ability earlier so here is some background to see where he sits.

Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman

The SEAL team with the Squad was "the best of the best" and armed to the extreme.

Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman

Members of the Squad are better than the best of the best. Deadshot > Boomerang. He's the number one in the world.

Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman
Suicide Squad: The Official Movie Novelization -- Marv Wolfman

There's nothing you've shown for Widow to demonstrate she beats Deadshot by comparing her to other combatants in the MCU.

Conclusion

You are trying to demonstrate a level of ability for Widow that does not exceed what Deadshot dealt with. Many of the EA's were super soldiers because they were special forces with super soldier enhanced levels of physicals after Enchantress transformed them into the Eyes of the Adversary.

They used the best weapons available. They used ambush and stealth. They died. Not just a few of them. A small army. Not with a shot that hit and several that missed. Every shot was precise.

Her head is unprotected. That's a huge problem for her regardless of everything else.

Simply applying massive suppressing fire can pin her down because unlimited ammo and no reload means no gaps in shooting that she needs. Every time she empties a weapon and need to reload is an opportunity. Every time she needs to move to a hidden weapon is an opportunity.

I am having a hard time seeing Widow taking this.

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#38 geekryan  Online
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#39  Edited By ANTHP2000

Counters III: Closing Post

I. Firearms. Armor.

It's not really missed so much as your analysis is presumptuous. I was asking to see the bullet hit the face piece because taking it off can just as easily be an emotional response from an attack he was not expecting. Look at that scene again. You are arguing her accuracy based on a shot that you claim struck the face piece with snipers take forehead shots that was not protected in ignoring all the shots she fired that didn't hit him at all as seen in the shots hitting the cement. That's a low accuracy rate with what almost looks like a stray shot hitting him based on the number of shots fired compared to the number of claimed hits.

  1. Well, no, you literally just missed it since it's right there in the gif and the image and you didn't notice. I'm not accusing you or anything so there's no need to deny it.
  2. My analysis was perfectly accurate and didn't ignore anything. I clearly address what you said here in Post #24:

Another thing to note is the draw speed/rapid firing here. Again, it's too fast to catch with a blind eye, but for a split second after Bucky's goggles are shot, we see Natasha's already shot 5 more times in that direction - once again, in less than a single second. The first one did hit the target, the others were less accurate for obvious reasons that cannot be used against her considering the target wasn't in her line of sight.

The first shot was a headshot. The others were less accurate because after that point you just shoot in the general direction to ensure he's dead - not knowing bulletproof material would protect him. I don't see why you would hold that against her when the target was completely out of her line of sight, which is the entire point of the scene and it's what makes the feat noteworthy in the first place.

That doesn't actually look like 50-60 ft to me. A bit over estimated,

Hardly an overestimation looking at the environment: the open bar in the central part of the room is a bit over 12 ft. long (keep in mind Steve is confirmed as 6'2") and you can fit at least 2 more bars on each side of the room till you reach the balconies - especially looking at how tiny ScarJo (5'3") and Ruffalo (5'7") look in this shot, at least a 20 ft. distance between the bar and the top end of the staircase. I'd say it's the most accurate rough measurement all things considered.

but a minor detail given we're looking at 100 ft starting distances in the battlefield. Accuracy shown at less than that distance doesn't help demonstrate her killing shots.

She hit the armor's "neck" at this distance (which is after her headshot failed to damage the other armor), a headshot is honestly just being generous with this feat. I'm sure she'd have no issue hitting a target as large as Deadshot somewhere in the body from a higher distance.

Starting distance hardly matters here. Literally, we both have prep time and cover and I've discussed stealth as a mobility tool more than once in our debate.

Weapon swapping takes enough time for Lawton to take shots during the swap when he doesn't need to trade out weapons. That's an opportunity he won't waste.

As I mentioned, I seriously doubt it's going to be a long enough shootout that she'll need to switch arms between 2 glocks and an AR with an RPG set fitted in it. But even if she would, it wouldn't be in sight of Deadshot obviously.

Non-casual arrow timing is not bullet timing by any stretch, and the "outpacing automatic gunfire" was keeping on the move while presenting a harder target against less skills shooters. That's not a concern here. I'll point out that Widow does not demonstrate abilities like that in the movies as well. That's why I included novelization context to demonstrate his draw speed you were writing off. ;-)

I never mentioned anything about bullet timing. It's reaction speed, relevant when discussing who's going to be shooting first. Combined with the rapid firing feats I posted, I really don't see why Floyd is as fast as her, let alone faster. And the latter scan is a testament to how she can incorporate evasion and uncomfortable positioning with draw + aiming in an active firefight, another thing Deadshot hasn't shown.

And I don't know what you mean by saying she hasn't shown abilities like that in the movies, she's shown high reaction speed and extreme evasion plenty of times before. And Geek specifically pointed out tie in comic feats are allowed in the tournament rules.

Deadshot did actually demonstrate that draw speed in the his fight against Batman.

I'm not sure which part of the fight exactly you're referring to, but I don't see any draw speed feat here Widow could not replicate:

Loading Video...

the first shot (0:18) is obviously not anything worth noting, and while the final draw (0:22) is impressive if we assume that Bruce wouldn't be able to counter the shot, I've seen nothing from him to suggest Widow wouldn't just shoot him in a fight either. This version of Batman isn't well known for his speed.

That's why the demonstration against Incubus came up in the first posts. Incubus casually destroyed subway support columns and military choppers. Deadshot's armor protects him from the shrapnel, and from the impact like it did this blow from Incubus. Floyd's expression of pain in the scene is relevant because the book demonstrated the blow actually busted his ribs and he completed that fight against Enchantress ignoring those busted ribs.

That legitimizes taking Incubus's attack so that it's not just PIS and also demonstrates more of the pain tolerance Lawton demonstrates repeatedly.

Okay, impressive? I never denied Floyd's pain tolerance, but that won't help him against a grenade launcher of this caliber. If he's anywhere near the radius of the shot he's getting knocked down, left open and immediately gunned down, if he's directly in the target zone of the explosion itself he's done.

They are not both covered in bullet proof material. Deadshot is covered. Widow is covered from the neck down. She doesn't survive a headshot.

Yes they are both covered. Her head is exposed, no one said it isn't. Only Floyd's entire body is exposed to AP rounds, and your only counter to this is a rather vague statement mentioning the U.S. military were equipped with state of the art firearms when facing Incubus. I'm not saying it's not a possibility, but in order to assume Deadshot's outfit is bulletproof against armor piercing rounds based on this, we need to first assume the Eyes of the Adversary were carrying these arms and then assume they shot Deadshot with them. That is just too many assumptions with too little evidence to back them up IMO.

He can power through a hit. She cannot tank a headshot. That's an "end of story" fact. ;-)

She can power through a hit too. He cannot tank a headshot either. Another "end of a story fact".

II. Stealth. Positioning. Tactics.

How do you think he got in to that position and than out of it again in the first place? He got to a selected point of extreme advantage because of his skill in that department as well has demonstrating his abilities with exit strategy.

Which is fine, yet nothing out of the ordinary compared to Natasha. He used a vantage point of a very good distance from the target and placed an escape vehicle on the back of the building he was on. I fail to see why that's stealth that will help him here.

The misdirection was shown in the US Marshals having no idea where the shot came from. Therefore, it's not a theory. The brain operation speed is a meaningless statement. Labelling the "elite secret super-assassin ambushing..." is reaching. It was a definitely an impressive assassin but he was shooting blind through the roof of the car.

They had no idea where the shot came from because it's a ricochet shot (which only Deadshot was capable of in the world). Natasha has full knowledge on who she's fighting and what he can do, she won't get caught off guard by ricochets. You're using this showing as evidence that Floyd will go for misdirection tactics to distract Widow with ricochets before shooting her - which is still a theory, it isn't what happened. Your scene is just Deadshot killing someone with a ricochet because he was completely out of his line of fire at that point, not because he wanted to misdirect the security team.

And no, the feat I posted isn't just a meaningless statement. I've shown awareness, experience and tactic demonstrations from Natasha, this is one of them; she predicted exactly what the Winter Soldier was going to do and when he was going to do it and saved herself and two more people from a cut and dry assassination. It is relevant because your strategy revolves a lot around Floyd outsmarting his opponents. And mentioning Bucky was shooting from the top of the car is irrelevant because every shot was going to be a clean headshot regardless.

Deadshot is not Loki or Winter Soldier, and the ghosting is over-stated. She's good, but Loki definitely detected here from inside his cell while his back was turned before she revealed herself.

The ghosting isn't overstated because Deadshot has no counter to it. Loki most certainly didn't detect her in time and that is the entire point of his line 'There aren't many people who can sneak up on me'. He turns around and she's just standing in her wanted position, also noted in the script by Whedon. She had reached the position and casually stood there long before he took notice.

The Avengers (2012)
The Avengers (2012)

Not only that, but literally a second earlier she's nowhere to be seen inside the room. For reference to Deadshot's universe, this is a level of stealth only Batman can reach, and there's no lowballing this showing.

She can just outmaneuver Floyd here and shoot him from behind. We've seen she's willing to use stealth against a super-assassin 1 on 1 before when she fought Barnes.

Deadshot is tracking enhanced speed EA's the entire movie and not always with his eyepiece.

This is just keeping track of superhuman nameless goons in an active battle, something Natasha pretty much does in every Avengers film. It isn't awareness that will help him from getting snuck up on and killed in a cat and mouse game.

I am not sure I conveyed his ability earlier so here is some background to see where he sits. The SEAL team with the Squad was "the best of the best" and armed to the extreme. Members of the Squad are better than the best of the best. Deadshot > Boomerang. He's the number one in the world. There's nothing you've shown for Widow to demonstrate she beats Deadshot by comparing her to other combatants in the MCU.

I don't see why that matters when we've broken down the possible fight in the actual debate already, but, on paper, Black Widow's just as dangerous as Deadshot. Firstly, the Avengers are the best of the best, the Justice League of Marvel. Six hand-picked individuals to defend earth. As is S.H.I.E.L.D., which is a notch above the C.I.A. And Nick Fury stated he considers Natasha the best of his agents. The reason she got into their radar in the first place was because she posed a threat to global security. She's described in the MSVD as one of the most dangerous people on the planet. And so on... being better than Captain Boomerang and his unicorn is whatever.

III. Conclusion.

We've taken note of Romanoff's advantages already so that's just a review: firepower, armor, stealth, draw, initial positioning and tactics are all on our side; yes Deadshot's a better marksman, that's secondary, they'll both successfully shoot each other down in sight, what matters is who will do it first, who can hide better from the other, who can tag the other without the need of a direct gunshot, but a simple high radius explosion.

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@geekryan: @ashrym: Up, we can open this now.

Thank you to Ashrym in advance for a very interesting debate. One of the best representations of Deadshot I've seen in here, and a bunch of cool stuff I wasn't aware of.

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#41  Edited By Ashrym

@anthp2000: You're welcome. If I were repping dceu Bats I would probably use Deadshot for some scaling tbh. We never got into H2H because we both took a sniper approach, but there were some interesting tidbits there too. Plus, your EMP tactic wiped out several feats I would have liked to use with regarding the scope. ;-)

EDIT: Also, thank you for a good match. I almost forgot myself there for a sec.

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@ashrym: Can I ask if you own the novelisation? Cause I can't find any of these scans online for free.

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#43 BOC  Online

@boc said:

>Anthp

>Making short posts

No Caption Provided

Still this. I'll come back to vote soon tho

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@ashrym: Can I ask if you own the novelisation? Cause I can't find any of these scans online for free.

Yes. I own it. I think it might be on scribd in the US iirc but I bought a digital copy through google books. The novel demonstrates the power of the EA's much better than Waller's headshot comment on them in the movie. It also demonstrates Katana's speed and Croc's physical power better.

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@ashrym: Sounds cool, I might get back to you on that cause I've been thinking of making some RTs for the mains of the Squad, so maybe you could help out.

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Ooh, this was a very nice, respectful debate, with an interesting take on both sides!

On @ashrym's posts, he made good use of the fact that Deadshot's armor is full coverage, and he made sure to emphasize this advantage. He also made sure to keep his feats understandable, with the context and characters involved being clear to readers not familiar with Suicide Squad. The feats with deflecting shots were particularly interesting, and his accolades regarding the SEALs was impressive, too. I did think it was a little odd that ashrym didn't see that Bucky's visor was cracked, which anthp2000 noted, though that's a minor nitpick.

As for @anthp2000's posts, I think it was good that he conceded Deadshot's accuracy advantage while focusing on Natasha's own advantages in the fight. I think the context provided for stealthing Loki were particularly useful, and the plan for an EMP was also an interesting take. The argument about armor-piercing bullets against Deadshot's armor didn't seem fully fleshed out from other side, which I think is a pretty important deal, though mentioning the grenade launcher (and ashrym mentioning pain tolerance) partially got around that.

Overall, I vote for anthp2000, mostly for emphasizing the advantage of stealth, which I felt wasn't fully countered by the feats presented for deadshot, while still addressing Deadshot's advantages, and how they were mitigated. They both made use of the knowledge perk well in their arguments, and I think the debate was both close and entertaining to read, so kudos to both debaters!

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#50 geekryan  Online