Storm and Bishop vs Kitty Pryde and Iceman

@Iamlovewithin500: Not trolling. It's just a very predictable turn of events. When a Storm thread crosses a certain number of posts, there is a very good chance the words "Rogue Storm" and/or "magic potential" are going to get tossed around like they mean something. I haven't seen anyone here bringing up AoA Iceman, and that does not surprise me either. I don't expect that to happen. I expect this to.

iceman does not have to eat, breathe, etc like a human.. he simply exists.. a true elemental; which is why he is a true omega level mutant 

This is a good fight but im leaning toward team 1 cause Storm can just man lighting go in any direction or make it rain lighting and kitty pride is bound to get hit, The strong like is iceman im not sure that makes the fight more interesting and harder to choose. Yeah i think storm can think of some thing but for me actually it is a BUMP

The reason why people can't really take Storm seriously is because she is a glass cannon. She is powerful I'll give you that but that's all. So you don't know Bobby's feat when he literally became one with everything? hmmm...

Look. Let's say Bobby's power works like that of Jean Grey as pheonix when she is rearranging molecules. She does not emit psionic energy and redirect it as an energy projectile. If Bishop can even absorb indirect effects of psionic energies then hell he'd be one of the most powerful beings in existence. But that is not the case on how Bishop's powers work. How can he absorb psionic energy which is not even directed to him? If he can absorb energy not even directed to him then why didn't he absorbed Onslaught? He's a pure psionic being.

Flawed...

@Iamlovewithin500: I've already touched on the flaws in his bishop argument..his contridictions where addressed

@Iamlovewithin500: I've already touched on the flaws in his bishop argument..his contridictions where addressed

@Iamlovewithin500: I never implied that it was a requirement...i was just simply making an observation..Although not a requirement it seems as if most of the omega level mutants have shown to transcend a corporeal form and exist as a a self-sustaining consciousness that may inhabit inorganic matter and/or energy (with Elixir and Franklin being the only exception).

it's relevancy was used to show that although storm is BEASTY offensive adversary, she's a glass cannon, which puts her at a disadvantage because she would be vulnerable to Bobby's attacks while her attacks against him will more than likely be useless in his current state. This is where the "transcending her human body" point gets involved...because of it, he is at a advantage while she is at a disadvantage, that's where the validity of my argument came from..

evolving into something bigger than himself... something storm has yet to sustain (she has yet to fully and permenantly become one with nature itself; for she stilll relies on her human being) and for this..  i

Kitty can be effected by energy. Harpoon was able to affect her with his bio-energy-charged harpoon during the Mutant Massacre.

With how beastly Iceman is becoming, it is hard to say that he will have much difficulty with this at all.

kitty has phased through energy attacks as well. it really depends on the writer. she definitely has phased through storm's lighting and it tickled.

couldn't kitty bfr bishop by phasing the floor and letting him fall through ?

@BMEZY said:

prove to me that Bobby is emitting psionic energy directly at Bishop when he activates his powers.

So what magical energy is Bobby emitting when he creates ice....I really need to know?

@BMEZY said:

Even if Bobby releasespsionic signatures to psionically control his element what proof do you have that they will directed at Bishop..the element itself is affecting Bishop..not the psionic energy

What are you talking about? I never said the elements wouldn't effect Bishop if Bobby willed it. You're stuck on one attack, like it's all Bobby can do. I've already admitted Bobby would win but it probably won't be through Flash Freezeing.

@BMEZY said:

You have two psionic beings (Onslaught and Legion) that used their powers against Bishop...shouldn't some of their energy been absorbed by him (even if he could have been overloaded, Bishop didn't absorb anything at all..so how do you know that he will absorb Bobby's)

Interesting, if you actually read either one of those stories, you would know that Bishop did absorb energy from both of their attacks. As a matter of fact it was Key-Points in both of the storylines. So have you actually read the stories or are you just going off what you read here?

@BMEZY said:

What's the difference between incasing bishop in ice and affectively flash freezing him at the molecular level? Bobby still emits "psionic energy" why would one work and not the other..shouldn't Bishop be able to absorb both?

This is where you start contridicting yourself. You said "I've already said that Bobby can stop Bishop by simply incasing him in ice" , then you turn to around and say " but once it strikes his body, he will absorb it" ..you're not making any sense.. the ice would be "striking" his body (to incase him) and according to you, he will absorb it, but yet this can stop Bishop... when freezing his molecules via flash freezing can't.

Wait....are you serious? One an outside attack and the other is an inside attack. First of all, I never said an outside attack would be absorbed by Bishop, you just made that up in your head. (At least I think you did, I might have to reread my post) It's only when Bobby tries to manipulate Bishop's molecules with his abilities do I call the outcome into question. Can Bobby use his enviroment to incase Bishop in ice.....yes. Can Bobby use his abilities to flash freeze Bishop...I don't know.

@BMEZY said:

Although he can absorb psionic energy from blasts or telekinetic attacks, Bishop is not immune to telepathic attacks.

Now telepathic attacks are pure psionic energy..with your logic, Bishop should be able to easily absorb these, but according to marvel, these attacks affect him too. freezing Bishop's water molecules with a sentient thought doesn't take a blast/projectile/water-ice medium...he thinks and it happens. .it works the same way as telepathy. He psioncally activates his powers by projecting his thoughts....and the elements obey his every command..much like telepathy -which can be used to put bishop down ;D-

I really don't care as Marvel has already answered the question for you. While he can't fully absorb telepathic energy, he has no problem absorbing telekinetic energy....which happens to be the form of psionic energy Bobby uses.

Storm and Bishop wins here.

Kitty can still feel cold and heat and needs to breathe.

iceman can still be hurt and be knocked to unconsciousness.

@jhazzroucher said:

Storm and Bishop wins here.

Kitty can still feel cold and heat and needs to breathe.

iceman can still be hurt and be knocked to unconsciousness.

Kitty phased through magma and displayed no discomfort while in the vacuum of space, which is about as cold as it gets. Temperature is not a problem for her. Storm/Bishop can also be hurt and knocked unconscious so I fail to see how that is an advantage for team 1.

Storm and Bishop wins here.

Kitty can still feel cold and heat and needs to breathe.

iceman can still be hurt and be knocked to unconsciousness.

@Illuminatus said:

@jhazzroucher said:

Storm and Bishop wins here.

Kitty can still feel cold and heat and needs to breathe.

iceman can still be hurt and be knocked to unconsciousness.

How's life, Rby?

Lol that makes so much sense.

@Erik said:

@Illuminatus said:

@jhazzroucher said:

Storm and Bishop wins here.

Kitty can still feel cold and heat and needs to breathe.

iceman can still be hurt and be knocked to unconsciousness.

How's life, Rby?

Lol that makes so much sense.

I'm doing just fine. lol : )

@Erik: You didn't know?

@Mercy_ said:

@Erik: You didn't know?

I seem to be the last to know just about everything lol.

wait ... if bobby is an element , and storm is "mistress of the elements"

does that make storm his mistress ? XD

sorry im new here and couldnt help myself ...

Storm and Bishop win.

Storm could stop Kitty from breathing before she even thought about becoming intangible.

Bishop could take care of Iceman until Storm is done with Kitty which shouldnt be long. at all.

Obviously..

@bmezy: so we meet again huh ...

It's hilarious to me that someone is saying that Bishop is going to "take care" of someone able to instantly and effortlessly subject someone to absolute zero temperatures. Bishop, the guy who requires energy to use his powers (not to mention to live) is going to hold off a guy that can simply make energy vanish? And that's not getting into other tricks. Bishop's not holding off Iceman for any length of time. Granted this argument comes from the same post where it's suggested that Kitty breathing is relevant at all to her phasing (when it's been made clear it's not and was explicitly stated that it wasn't, within the last month). Iceman has one of his clones end this fight and doesn't even bother getting out of bed.

iceman solos

@buckshot: I think you completely missed the point of the argument Lord Shiva was making, and you also missed the part of the argument that she stated that ice powers would work on him but she didn't agree that flash freezing would work. One important reason why is that iceman would have to direct his psionic control over moisture molecules in Bishop's body. She was stating that when Bobby did this, that it would automatically activate Bishops powers. Because his body reacts to psionic and kinetic energies directed at him. So his body would be actively gathering energy in his body cancelling the process out iceman was doing, Part of Bishops powers are also to enhance the energy being directed at him, and making it stronger. That is what they were saying, which makes sense.

He actually doesn't solo, one thing that people completely forgot to mention is that Iceman after Emma frost took over his body and used his powers in a way He didn't think he could, He refused to asked Emma for help in understanding his abilities, instead he went to be tutored under Storm in how to use his powers better. Storm has better control than Bobby does, although Iceman's power supply is seemingly endless. Storm could easily cancel his affects out. Also she isn't limited to just moisture, although she has the same degree of control, if not better. There are very few elemental who have over powered Storm in an actual fight over the elements.

true ... she has shown the ability to wrest control of other elementals control over their respective elements that fall under her command .. diffrence is iceman just waves his hands and behold ice! most of the time ive seen her create ice was in the form of hail and such .. but bobby is cryokinetic she is not they kinda dont make ice the same way tho

I think you completely missed that I was referring to Stormultt's comments. But on Shiva's comments, it's a bunch of speculation and her opinion is just that, so I won't let it slow me down until there are some examples of Bishop doing what is being claimed (instead of just lots of examples of psionic attacks working on him and attacks generated by thought also working on him). You guys can agree on speculation, but that doesn't actually affect my decision making. As for your claim that Storm has better control (or even the same), I'll wait until I see her animate and coordinate numerous clones of herself composed of the elements or effortlessly disperse her consciousness amongst the same. When Storm can control ice in the way Bobby has been, get at me.

Team 2 ftw

@buckshot: controlling clones is indeed very difficult, like when Bobby was training himself in actually doing that, and could barely get inch models to move at all. AoA had even better control over his clones than 616 bobby, that didn't stop him from being killed when completely devoid of moisture by Sunfire, in 616 when they were fighting archangel for the seed. It's canon fact that Storm trained Bobby in how to use his powers in better and different ways, is it possible the student has surpassed the teacher, sure. But he hasn't done anything in his powerset to show he is actually more powerful at manipulating moisture than Storm. Whom has manipulated more on both sub-atomic, atomic, hemispheric, or global scale. I have never seen Bobby whisk away control of a blizzard from anyone, but i wouldn't downplay his powers simply because of that fact.

Yeah, it looks so difficult. So difficult he says he did it on a whim and didn't have a problem explaining it and then making out at the same time.

So difficult he does it while cracking jokes and making giants.

So difficult he does it while sleeping.

@buckshot: do you make it a point to misunderstand the context in which people are speaking? I was referring to when he was first trying to control ice and make it move for the first time, and the complexity in which it takes to be able to make clones and control them in the way he does. It's taken him years to be able to do that so easily. So you showing these scans don't really mean anything at all.

You said controlling clones is difficult, not that it was. I assumed, maybe erroneously, that you were referring to the present. You used an example from the past, but it seemed to be only in support of what you thought the position was in the present. I don't see why you'd be pointing out that it was difficult before and now wasn't, because the fight is in the present, not the past, and if anything, it being difficult before and effortless now would only suggest that "the student has surpassed the teacher", which came across as something you were barely considering, let alone a point you were making. As for him taking years to be able to do that so easily, you act like he's been working on this for years when he clearly hasn't. Him toying around with ice miniatures was about as meaningful as when we catch him making ice sculptures in his office now. The first image I posted was basically the first time he really got into the ice clones and he said he did it on impulse. It's not something he had been preparing for. He was able to do it because he finally felt like stepping into his power, not because he trained for a long time at something that was really difficult for him.

@buckshot: you are right we are talking about present time, however you brought up clones as a some standard of power over ice, which as i have admitted is a great ability and feat. However it wasn't something Bobby just woke up and decided to do, it's also not an ability that a lot of people could do period unless they similarly trained themselves to do so with a similar powerset in ice/moisture manipulation. i believe at some point in the school Iceman was teaching Idie some things about temperature manipulation, who's to say with study she wouldn't be able to do something similar or Storm for that matter, however neither has shown an interest in doing this, but i wouldn't put it out of the scope of their abilities if they trained as Bobby did.

And making reference to when he started using Ice clones, which was i believe about a decade ago, showed a clear progression in Bobby trying to learn to use this particular skill, and his skills with his powers over all. Yes it's easy for him now, but that wasn't always the case. And probably would have been impossible for him if not for Emma Frost and the Tutelage of Storm. That being said. Bobby still hasn't shown more ability to manipulate moisture in a way that would trump Storm's power over it. He's only shown a different way in using his ice/Water powers. Storm could simply remove his power source from the field, making it harder to use his powers at all. Ice clone or no. Storm could manipulate his iceform is various ways that even iceman himself would not be able to outright counter.

iceman solo's . team 1 does absolutely nothing to him. those storm scans prove nothing. she will not have more control than bobby of his own body. also it doesnt matter if she can change his state, she's getting flash freezed and so is bishop

bobby solo's. those storm scans don't prove anything. storm won't have more control of bobby's body than he will. also, bobby stays conscious in all the states of matter. before storm can even do anything, she and bishop are getting flash freezed.

because that wouldn't happen. Storm sees energy in forms of weather patterns and changes she can react faster than Iceman, and counter him. Again Storm has a very long record of overpowering Elemental in their own elements that she also can control, her best showing is beating the Trion Gods, but Shaman from Alpha Flight, Gale Force, Living Lighting.. Hydroman, etc. Bobby does not have that same record. It doesn't matter if he stays conscious or not if he can't get control over his body or the elementals he is essentially powerless. Which is exactly what happened to Hydroman.

Also Storm's body automatically adjust to extreme temperatures, it's highly doubtful a flash freeze would work on her. Bishop was the one that people were debating, and Shiva's logic was pretty valid.

Iceman making clones won't do him any good. Storm has shown the ability to hit multiple targets with an arc of lightning simultaneously. Team 1 should be able to take this with some difficulty.

@batnorris said:

Storm is highly resistant to nearly all of Bobby's attacks. Her endurance in cold extremes is at a very high level.

don't bring in hydroman. he's one of the villans that have great power but are too brain dead to use it. bobby does not have the same flaw. where does it show she reacts faster than iceman? and she's not going to have more control over bobby's body than he is.

it doesnt matter how well she can adjust. unless she can take absolute zero which i know she can't she's getting flash freezed. adjusting to extreme temperatures isn't enough.

highly resistant isn't completely resistant. like i said, she can't take absolute zero. game over

@batnorris: What does Hydroman's brains have to do with the fact that she completely over powered him as his own element? Nothing. What have you shown of Bobby that proves he's faster than Storm, Storm has a ton of reaction and speed feats, and her ability to use Flash Freezing and other powers are instantaneous, have both worked subconsciously (to protect herself on several occasions even when she fought the Trion gods in their own dimension) and consciously. That's faster than even Storm can think, Bobby isn't faster than her.

For Bobby to bring something to absolute zero he has to manipulate moisture, which would be apparent to Storm and she could counter and over power him , as she has constantly done in her history. Since she is one with her environment & has energy sight which relates to weather pattern/temperature change she would already know what Bobby is doing. Bobby does not have that same abilities as her where she can manipulate energies he has no access to and won't know what she is doing, especially on as large a scale as storm has use her powers before. Storm has flash frozen the entire savage land killing several creatures instantly, show me anywhere that bobby wasn't in close proximity of someone to flash freeze them. She has flash frozen someone from the outer most atmosphere, Bobby doesn't have her range.

Then you have the fact that Storm can use electrolysis on Bobby rendering him useless.

The statements of Bobby, Beast, and others in Wolverine and the X-Men #2 (posted above) suggest your position is entirely incorrect.

And it appears this thread has returned to levels of Stormitude that I'm not interested in being around.

what does range even matter? i don't get what you're trying to say about her reaction. she can use her powers subconsciously and that's why she's faster? so what, bobby has clones do stuff subconsciously but it's not faster than thought. just because you do something subconsciously doesn't mean it's faster than you can think. i would love to see those feats. storm would still lose but i'd like to see you back that up

whole second paragraph is comepletely moot. what time will she have to counter? bobbie's flash freezing is INSTANTANEOUS. she won't have time to counter, once that happens she's done.

@batnorris: That would only work if Bobby got the jump on Storm. She controls thermal energy as well as moisture just like Bobby and has on occasion channeled entire blizzards with no ill effect. I doubt Bobby would even be able to pull this off before he's shot with a lightning bolt.

Kitty and Iceman. Bishop brings nothing to the table.

There was a time when Storm would have beat Bobby. When all Bobby did was make ice slides and throw snowballs. That time has passed. Bobby is living up to his potential now.

@buckshot:

The scan above is talking about Wolverine's speech of motivation... that doesn't prove anything in terms of Bobby's ability because they aren't even talking about that in that scan. And i love the passive aggressive way you have of labeling people who are arguing the fact that Bobby hasn't shown the range or control that storm has when asked about it...

What does range matter... seriously??? Like Bobby, Storm powers act at the speed of thought, however Storm's powers can activate both defensively and offensively subconsciously in various ways. For example her body's temperature automatically adjust to extreme changes in heat and Cold. When she met Idle, or when he was demons and her and Iceman were dropping the temperature close to absolute zero, neither herself nor iceman were affect, or when she fought Siena Blaze, when she multi-tasked and created a blizzard, and a vortex of electromagnetic energy to syphon off Siena's powers. Her Body was so hot, and she was so exalted that Charles X, has to go into her mind and make her body cool down. When she fought Vampires, offensively producing lighting strikes to defend herself when she didn't want to kill them, and Also manifesting enough energy comparable to the sun to fend herself off from demon horde, or her powers softening her fall when facing Earthquake from the Emperior Guard of the Shi'ar and the when Sparring with Gambit after the Khan incident.

If iceman was controlling them subconsciously he wouldn't be aware he was doing it. So no it's not subconscious control, he is feeding his clone psionic orders, and using his powers to make them move. And subconscious is faster than conscious. But in terms of speed in general Storm is faster, in reflexes and agility. Not to mention in the air and water she can create vortexes and custom jetsteam, and can control tidal speeds. Like when she move the entire blackbird from under the ocean by manipulating the atmosphere underwater.

I'm not posting a bunch of scans if that's what you are looking for I've given you instances of her doing these things and I'm sure you can find them on the storm's feat board.

morals on would be a hard fought battle but bishop and storm could pull it off

morals off team 2 easy iceman wouldnt have to shoot a ice beam at bishop he could throw icicles around and impale storm or bishop.... kitty could take bishop out anytime she wants like come behind bishop unarm him and reach into his heart ... then it would leave 2:1 iceman & kitty vs storm and last i saw was kitty can walk on the air

There are more images there than what you're referencing. You keep talking about training and difficulty, when none of that is shown. You say that what Bobby did "wasn't something he just woke up and decided to" and that others might be able to if they "trained as bobby did". But if anything is suggested by the issue I mentioned (and posted pages from), him "waking up and deciding to do it" is far closer to reality. The reader is given a front row seat as Bobby is struck with the idea and if that weren't clear enough, it's given explicitly. When asked about how he did it he says, "I don't know, the idea just came to me" and he also says he didn't even know he could do it. Do those statement sound like they came after years of training to be able to perform this task?

Glad you like my attitude but I have no idea what you're talking about. Don't see where I labeled anyone anything. Me not being at all interested in reading (let alone being pulled into) more Storm rhetoric is simply that. Also, I don't see where you asked me anything. See the question at the end of my last paragraph? That's how you ask someone something. Oh wait, there goes another one.

Bonus: Talking about Storm "removing Bobby's power source" is silly, since it would require her to kill everyone in the fight...which, ironically, would leave Bobby the only survivor, as his consciousness is not bound to any one body.

@buckshot: If I'm not mistaken, Iceman's powers really work by slowing down molecules by absorbing their heat/energy..effectively stopping the speed and flow of molecules.. no energy can be produced what so ever at A.zero i.e heat, light, etc. So storm wouldn't be able to generate any type of energy until bobby raises the temperature in the area..In essence, she would die instantly if bobby were to concentrate and pinpoint his abilities directly on storm.. her whole entire being...every atom that make up her molecules would cease to operate.

As I do believe Storm has great resistance to extreme temperatures, I must admit that absolute zero may be BEYOND her level of comprehension..and the fact that Bobby can drop the temperatures to this level effortlessly in nearly an instant also puts Storm at a serious disadvantage.

In my honest opinion, storm herself cannot react to something that's instantaneous.. that takes place in a conscious thought... this is not a gradual process anymore, storm wouldn't even be able to react and conjure up anything substantial. The severity of the concept, absolute zero is too much. Storm has never ever demonstrated the ability to withstand this..Storm may be immune to temperatures produced by nature or her own manipulations but I don't see her being immuned to Bobby's

I also don't think range makes Storm the better manipulator of moisture.For instance Iceman having complete control over thermokinetics on a molecular level is a feat more impressive than storm dropping the tempreture in the the enviroment.. (snuffing all the kinetic energy within an "instant" takes serious CONTROL).

Am I getting punk'd?

@buckshot: Do you disagree?? lemme hear it!