CW Steel vs Albert Wesker

Pure Straight up Hand to Hand

Win by Death

Who wins?

@cramandman

@assemblesquad: My money's on Wesker. Faster, stronger, more skilled.

@cramandman: Can he able to hurt his metal form body?

@assemblesquad: I'm not sure if he can hurt Steel but I know Steel isn't capable of landing a punch on Wesker if he doesn't let him!

Still Wesker

I don't see how wesker wins. He is faster but its not like steel can't react to him. In his steel form Nate was able to catch a bullet between his teeth and block other bullets with his hands. Yes these were bullets from the old west but I don't think wesker can catch bullets that casually, even from guns of that era. In his human form Nate reacted to a blitz from Thwayne as well who is much faster than wesker. Wesker is much more agile, has greater combat speed, but Nate has better reactions and reflexes in his steel form in a knee jerk type of way. And considering his human form can react to a blitz from Thwayne I think he can steel up before wesker blitzes him.

With all that out of the way wesker can't hurt Nate and Nate is strong enough to stop a train. So worst case scenario this ends in a war of attrition which Nate will win as well.

@jashro44: Nate has never took a rocket blast before like Wesker, and Wesker's also a bullet timer, he's survived falling from a great height into a volcano, having multiple steel girders falling on him and he also has a healing factor that makes him extremely hard to kill. And he's fought Chris who can punch a boulder.

I don't understand how any of those feats compare to stopping a train. I don't see why Steel couldn't tank a rocket....And didn't wesker die from an RPG to the face?

I mentioned in a subsequent post that i'm not sure if Wesker can hurt Nate, so it might be a draw. You make a good case for Steel's feats of super-speed reaction, so you're probably right in that Nate can just outlast him and eventually tag him and put him down. I still think Wesker's speed and skill could allow him to at least stalemate Nate as he won't be able to catch him if he doesn't want to be caught.

@jashro44: He catches a rocket with his hands and tanked explosion after someone shot it

But why? Nate's reacted to faster and when it comes to reaction feats Nate actually has better feats than wesker. Likewise wesker mostly moves in short bursts of speed, so his movements can be timed. Wesker will dance around Nate for a while but not forever.

OK? Nate still one shots when he connects....

Honestly, i don't recall him reacting to Thawne's speedblitz, what episode was that again?

Based on my own recollections, I think Wesker's durable enough to take a few shots by Steel and skilled/fast enough to avoid the rest. He'll press the advantage and if he can't hurt Nate, Wesker will play a game of hit-and-run/keep away. Honestly, I don't think we've seen enough of Nate or Wesker for us to know with certainty how this will play out!

Him catching a bullet is an outlier, especially since random humans can react to Nate. And him reacting to a serious Thawne is just a low showing for Thawne, especially since Speedsters job highly unless they fight another speedster like Barry. Wesker is downright faster than Nate and combat speed is much more important in a fight anyways.

Don't see how Wesker is unable to hurt Nate, especially since Wesker can casually punch clean through steel while weakened. And it doesn't take that much power to KO Nate, especially since a box of explosives KO'd Nate for an extended period of time. In fact, there are other of instances probably like this to where his train and bullet showings are just high end while Wesker is consistently portrayed.

If Steel catch him he wins, otherwise stalemate

I don't see why we need to see more of Nate. Even assuming wesker can tank hits from Nate, Nate could just pin him down. Seems more likely than wesker winning.

I can see an argument for him catching a bullet being an outlier but Thwayne was clearly utilizing his super speed and visibly running when Nate reacted to him. We can visually see Thwayne's speed so you can't actually say its just Thwayne jobbing. Concerning the bullet stuff I feel there is a difference between reaction speed and combat speed so even though Nates had trouble tagging Malcolm and the shogun I still think he is fast in his knee jerk type reactions.

Steel was stated by Ray to be more than 100X more durable than regular steel in the shogun episode so I don't see why you are bringing up wesker denting steel. I had to look back at the explosion but I think that is a low showing if anything. He was no selling attacks from Ray including his Ion blasts, there is the train feat as mentioned, and both him and Ray were able to tank falling out of the time stream, he also took quite a few hits from Thwayne repeatedly there to.

@reaverlation: @jashro44: That feat is preposterous for a number of reasons. Nate's de-powered and he's in an alternate reality where he never became Steel. It can also be seen as a lucky shot he lands because he knows Reverse-flash is trying to get his hands on the spear. That isn't representative of Nate's reflexes, it's just WIS.

I asked this in the PM and nobody responded, but are we going with Steel as a genuine casual bullet timer, or was all that somehow aim blocking?

You guys can't just dismiss every reaction feat he has as bad writing. Besides the way I always looked at PIS would be that a character doesn't use there abilities fully for the sake of plot. Like when batman gets hit by a blood lusted martian manhunter which sends him through a wall or slammed into the ground by wonder woman that creates a crater the PIS isn't that batman takes those hits, its that martian manhunter and wonder woman didn't hit him harder.

We can apply that same logic to Thwayne in the gif and just assume its PIS and Thwayne wasn't moving at max speed for plot sake but we would still have Nate reacting to Thwayne's blitz at the speeds we visually see which I would say compares to wesker.

@nickzambuto Personal opinion he was aim blocking the bullets with his hands and he reacted to the one bullet he caught with his teeth. You could make the argument it was a casual bullet timing feat but I feel based on his consistent combat speed against characters like Malcolm and the Shogun he doesn't seem to be that fast. So I think he can casually react to bullets in a reflexive response but I don't think he can casually fight at that pace.

Its kind of the same argument you tried to use against me in our solid snake vs spider-man challenge a viner on the difference between combat speed and reaction speed if that makes sense.

I think you missed my point about it being preposterous because he's depowered! If we're to take the feat at face value, it shows a normal human has the reflexes to hit reverse-flash. IT's WIS not PIS, because it's clearly the writer trying to make the scene fun and entertaining and sacrificing the logic of the world/characters as a result. When you watch the full scene, the feat is meant to set-up a comedy beat between Darkh and Nate, it's not meant to be representative of a normal human's reaction time. I'm fine with you using the bullet-timing/aimblocking feats but don't use a feat where Nate doesn't even have his powers and he's reacting faster than when he does. It's not just an outlier for Nate, it's totally ridiculous!

Well again I'm not even assuming Thwayne was moving at full speed. I'm treating it like I treat all feats of speedsters being tagged. Yes it was a comedic scene but so are many scenes in legends of tomorrow. I'm not going to dismiss every scene that is comedic. That is just the tone of legends of tomorrow. It shifts between being extremely ridiculous and silly to being kind of dark.

I'm not suggesting you dismiss every comedic scene. I'm suggesting you dismiss every comedic scene that also fails to adhere to the basic logic of the show. For instance, a beat after NAte tags reverse flash, he gets clocked and KOed by Darkh who is obviously moving much more slowly than RFlash. Where are his vaunted super-speed reflexes? YOu can't have it both ways! AGain, he's depowered in the scene you're referencing, meaning it's not even representative of his normal Steel-based super-reflexes, it's showcasing that regular Nate without the serum can tag ReverseFlash. It's bad writing and you're smart enough to see and admit it!

@jashro44: I'm sorry Jash, I have to go against you on this one. The fact that Nate was depowered at that point is very telling of intent. If we look at the series of events in chronological order, Nate sees Thawne before he has begun running, and begins swinging the staff in anticipation of Thawne coming. Thawne doesn't see Nate behind the machine, so he just runs right into the staff. Nate didn't react to Thawne in motion, his swing just timed up with Thawne running passed him. We know that Nate isn't a super great combatant without his powers. He is a smart and brave person though, so this scene is really just quick thinking, and a fair bit of luck.

@jashro44: I honestly don't see Nate in Wesker's league when it comes to overall speed. He casually go across large rooms as if he were a speedster himself. He literally dodges bullets as if they were going too slow for him. I honestly don't see Nate touching Wesker anytime soon. I'm not denying Nate isn't durable, which he clearly is, but he's far from being invulnerable to someone as powerful as Wesker. And Wesker didn't dent steel but he clearly put his fist and forearm right through steel. The only thing Nate has going for him is durability honestly and Wesker is pretty darn durable himself to where even Chris Redfield hurts his hands punching Wesker.

@reaverlation: That's not fair. You make it sound like Wesker can tank Chris's strikes. Wesker gets flat KTFO when Chris lands that combination. He regenerates and stands back up seconds later, but that doesn't change the fact Chris definitely inflicts damage. The bit where he waves his hand as if it stings after the combo is a nice detail, but Wesker has better feats to prove his durability than that.

@cramandman: I never made the arguement steel needs super human reflexes and reacting to speedsters is a peak human level feat (depending how fast they are moving).

Is it? I didn't think Stein or Ray were great combatants but Stein beat those pirates and Ray fought that shogun in the atom suit and held his own. I think people are over thinking this. Now I can see your point about Nate anticipating Thwayne but he can do the same thing to wesker. All I am saying is Nate can tag wesker eventually. Wesker will dance around him for a while but he isn't untouchable.

Yes wesker is faster than Nate but all my argument is, is that Nate can tag wesker. Even if we assume Nate has no enhanced speed (I think he does because during the crossover he was shown out running some people including Oliver IIRC). But even assuming he has no enhanced speed, and is only as fast as a regular person he can still tag wesker. Wesker blitzing him would be like if we ran into a brick wall, which will give steel a chance to tag him. Again your comparing punching to steel to someone who is said to be 100X more durable than steel.

I'll leave the Chris stuff to Nick but Steel is clearly stronger than Chris. Both on paper and based on feats.

Steel for me

@reaverlation: @nickzambuto:

Nate isn't supposed to be a peak human on the show, he has a serious health condition without the serum. IIRC, he's a hemophiliac who can't be cut without risking his life. He's not particularly athletic as his parents wouldn't even let him go outside as a kid.

He was also hiding behind an object that while helping him surprise Thawne also should have prevented him from timing/seeing Rflash run. At best, him landing that shot without the super-reflexes and clear line of sight should be considered an outlier/lucky shot.

Also, I still think you're overlooking the second part of what I said. A moment later Darkh who is much slower than Thawne KO's Nate, who is unable to even realize he's being attacked. IF we grant that normal hemophiliac Nate indeed has super-reflexes, they are at best totally inconsistent. It's much more likely that the Writer just wanted a funny moment between him and Darkh and so ignored Nate's normal human reflexes for that action beat, making it WIS and by the rules of this forum invalid as a feat. You should rule it invalid yourself, if for no other reason then it's not representative of his Steel/serum enhanced abilities.

As I said on legends even people like Ray can fight a shogun in the atom suit, and Stein can beat up space pirates by himself despite being an old man. Nate isn't out of shape and he isn't a hemophiliac anymore. My point was you don't need to be super human to react to a speedster. I already said to Nick I can get behind the fact that Nate timed Thwayne's blitz but as I said he can do the same to wesker.

We clearly do see that Nate saw reverse flash.

I read it I just don't see the point. Damien knocking out Nate doesn't mean anything. I never claimed that you need to be as fast as Thwayne to tag steel or dodge him, in fact I've stated the opposite repeatedly.

Nate is out of shape and a hemophiliac in the alternate reality that fight plays out in, remember Thawne uses the spear to change reality so that Nate never took the serum. Again, the feat of normal Nate tagging a speedster shouldn't be used as evidence of him being able to tag speedsters generally. It's a lucky shot at best. Also, if he's as inconsistent as you're saying, Wesker shouldn't have any problems with hit and run tactics. He can take the occasional lucky shot.

@jashro44: Hey, don't undersell Ray. He's been training and improving steadily for years now, and at this point, he's an accomplished and peak human martial artist, samurai, and knight. He earned that fight with the Shogun.

wait , did he actually send thawne flying when he was depowered? wtf?

Also flash could barely react to thawne but thawne can't react to a regular depowered character?

People really need to stop accepting every feat they see, and question them

@cramandman: Why is this different from any other speedster tagging feat? It sounds like your judging Nate based on what you believe he should be capable of rather than what he's actually done....

We can agree to disagree.

That's my point though. He's never trained with a sword as far as we know, and this shogun was suppose to be some samurai master. Not to mention the shogun had the enhancement of the atom suit. Logically the shogun should have stomped but he didn't.

Wesker stomps.

Steel would never tag him.

That was because of the spear of destiny.

steel wins.

1. Took a nitroglycerin explosion at point blank.
2. Got KO'D by a free fall from space.
3. Stopped a train full of dwarf star alloy.
4. Casual bullet timer and even reacted to Reverse Flash blitz when he was with and without his power.

@jashro44: Maybe my recollections of the flash are bad, but i don't remember too many normal humans hitting flash with a melee weapon other than Ollie who is clearly more than peak human. They usually use some kind of super-fast projectiles or energy.

Barry's been tagged a few times by regular humans like everyman or peekaboo. Regardless my view is that if Thwayne was moving at max speeds he could blitz steel but we can't fully quantify the feat. Still I think based on what is visually shown on screen Thwayne was moving at similar speeds to wesker.

Both of your examples also include superpowers of mass multiplication and teleportation, not normal humans.

In any case, even if we grant you the Thawne hit, it still relies on the element of surprise, him hiding behind something, him knowing he was going for the spear and him perfectly timing the shot with a bit of luck. The spear is also superpowerful. Wesker won't fall prey to any of those circumstances and again even if he connects with another lucky shot, Wesker can take it and dish out more of the same.

@cramandman: Why wouldn't wesker fall prey to those circumstances aside from the element of surprise? Even than Chris has beaten wesker using stealth, obviously steel isn't stealthy or skilled but its not like wesker can't be surprised. You guys keep saying wesker can dish out the damage to hurt steel....despite the fact he's been said to be 100x more durable than steel, and has stopped a train....

The speed advantage is just too much paired with his super-strength and more importantly his skill. He'll wear Steel down with hit and run tactics until he finishes him off. His durability has it's limits.

....And those limits far exceed what wesker can do. If Chris can tank hits from wesker than I think steel can handle it....

Again, it's not that Wesker is going to one-shot him or even two-shot him, it's going to be a process. AT the very least we agree that Wesker is faster and more skilled, as we agree Steel is stronger and more durable. I'll take skill and speed over strength and durability in this case.

@cramandman: My point is wesker can't hurt steel at all. Agree to disagree because this is getting repetitive.

You must not have much respect for Wesker's speed in concert with his strength, but yes let's agree to disagree.

@cramandman: Out of curiosity how strong do you think wesker is exactly?

As I understand it, Wesker is strong enough to punch through a man's chest, a steel missile with one shot, and a steel door with relative ease. He can also bend steel bars with ease. We don't really know what his limits are in strength exactly. For me, it's when you pair this level of strength with his level of superspeed that he becomes a danger to guys like Steel, the speed acts as a force multiplier for his strength.

More than you'd think, but less than you'd hope.

OK I agree with you on weskers strength level I just don't agree his speed acts as a multiplier (he's never shown that). Even if it did how much of a multiplier do you think it is exactly?

I would like to believe Albert Wesker would be able to win, due to his ability and intellect. Wesker is not someone who will chose to fight fair, we would need more clarification on what field of power Wesker is operating at before or after the umbrella genetic alteration. In all honesty, Steel (CW) is just not established well enough to combat Wesker.