Starkiller vs Qui Gon Jinn and Obi Wan (TPMl

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frozen

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#1  Edited By frozen  Moderator

Starkiller

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TPM duo

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Rules

  • Morals on
  • Legends feats
  • Everyone at their best
  • All out
  • SK is waiting for them and has had 10 minutes to prepare. He had been instructed the best plan is to split them apart
  • To KO or death

Location

  • Where Maul fought Jinn and Obi

Bonus round

  • Fights each in a 1v1. Obi is rage amped in his 1v1
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last0fth3risen

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Starkiller obliterates them.

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Wolfrazer

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#4 Wolfrazer  Online

Starkiller obliterates them.

Yeah this, they won't really have anything on him that he wouldn't already be prepared for.

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Eredin12

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Starkiller blinks

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deactivated-60ad9ed238b0d

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Starkiller annihilates

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turtleman1878

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Starkiller beats the duo pretty easily

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MyGod000

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Star killer obliterates. GL even said that Star killer is what a Dark side Luke would look like.

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JediSympathiz3r

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Starkiller is too powerful for them, he wins both rounds

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GangOrca

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Starkiller stomps

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Hey_Thatsmildlyadequate

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They get ragdolled

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PiscesMagnus

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Galen

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deactivated-60f8725e36989

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Starkiller. Not close.

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DaddyPrometheus

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Prep time for Starkiller? That's not fair lol, he beats them easily.

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TheinterestedImpulse

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Starkiller doesn't even need his force abilities to win this.

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DaddyPrometheus

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#16  Edited By DaddyPrometheus

@theinterestedimpulse said:

Starkiller doesn't even need his force abilities to win this.

Considering he is dueling at Vader levels, yeah, maybe.

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Lord_God

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Starkiller obliterates the duo.

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laflux

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He's too strong in the Force tbh

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frozen

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#19 frozen  Moderator

Bump.

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Necromancer76

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Starkiller

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frozen

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#21 frozen  Moderator

Bump.

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beastt

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The duo.

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Hey_Thatsmildlyadequate

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Starkiller blasts them

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frozen

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#24 frozen  Moderator

@beastt said:

The duo.

Reasoning?

Also, do you think either could replicate the star destroyer feat?

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hellothere5432

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#25  Edited By hellothere5432  Online

Starkiller

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Starkiller is only around Vader level while both Obi-Wan and Jinn scale above via G-Canon

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Uhu123

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Starkiller is only around Vader level while both Obi-Wan and Jinn scale above via G-Canon

Even if you take the quotes to mean that, it still only refers to dueling ability. What is to stop Starkiller from absolutely stomping them with the force?

OT: Galen blinks.

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RedGuard1an

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Either solo

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Eredin12

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#29  Edited By Eredin12

Galen still blinks yea

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beastt

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@frozen: They're both faster, more skilled, more agile, deadlier and if anything, comparable in force power.

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frozen

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#31 frozen  Moderator

@beastt said:

@frozen: They're both faster, more skilled, more agile, deadlier and if anything, comparable in force power.

So do you think they could replicate the star destroyer feat?

Starkiller is only around Vader level while both Obi-Wan and Jinn scale above via G-Canon

Same question as above.

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beastt

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@frozen: If they are in the same medium, possibly

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frozen

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#33 frozen  Moderator

@beastt said:

@frozen: If they are in the same medium, possibly

How do you reconcile SK's feats with the medium discrepancy?

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beastt

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#34  Edited By beastt

@frozen said:
@beastt said:

@frozen: If they are in the same medium, possibly

How do you reconcile SK's feats with the medium discrepancy?

I instead use statements to gauge his true power level.

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frozen

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#35 frozen  Moderator

@beastt: So his ISD feat isn't his 'true' level?

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beastt

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@frozen said:

@beastt: So his ISD feat isn't his 'true' level?

That's more or less true. The feat did happen, but not in the way that it was portrayed in the game. If you're looking for a deeper explanation, I suggest you to read this or this.

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frozen

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#37 frozen  Moderator

@beastt said:
@frozen said:

@beastt: So his ISD feat isn't his 'true' level?

That's more or less true. The feat did happen, but not in the way that it was portrayed in the game. If you're looking for a deeper explanation, I suggest you to read this or this.

So how would you more broadly reconcile this line of reasoning with someone such as GM Luke? Would it still apply? Given that GM Luke has only ever appeared in books and maybe a comic or two (mediums which are more 'exaggerated').

As for Starkiller, he's a game character who has only appeared in games, books and comics. There's no film counterpart to question the validity of his feats. Although you could raise the point of Vader scaling, that could just mean it's an outlier for Vader, rather than SK.

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Wolfrazer

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#38 Wolfrazer  Online

@frozen: Or that retcons happen with characters and their powers. Vader being this sub TPM Obi-Wan and Jinn makes no sense.

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beastt

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@frozen: Yes it would still apply, but Luke's feats would be near impossible to scale down since Luke, or the people he scales off of, don't appear in grounded mediums.

True, but we can still somewhat measure them via his relativity to Vader. I also recall Witwer saying that Lucas wanted the TFU medium to be exaggerated as he thought that would be suitable for a video game.

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Eredin12

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#40  Edited By Eredin12

@frozen: MuH MeDiuM ThOuGH:

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Cope from fanboys when characters they don't like have better feats is funny ngl. You can show the same feats in any medium if there is intent for characters to be that strong, Reeves pulled feats like this, which rival Post Crisis Superman himself, in the movie more than a decade older than Prequels, with a small budget at that. Fact that people that made Prequels intended Qui Gon/Maul/Obi-Wan to be fodder is something else though, and should not be blamed on Film Medium

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frozen

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#41 frozen  Moderator

@beastt:

Yes it would still apply, but Luke's feats would be near impossible to scale down since Luke, or the people he scales off of, don't appear in grounded mediums.

So in the case of Luke, it wouldn't really apply for the reasons you just said. He can only be assessed by the feats he performs.

True, but we can still somewhat measure them via his relativity to Vader. I also recall Witwer saying that Lucas wanted the TFU medium to be exaggerated as he thought that would be suitable for a video game

Even if I were to accept this medium argument, this could simply just bind Vader and not SK - if it's a high PIS feat for Vader, then it would be because SK was just that good. This happens in many verses, not just SW.

@eredin12 said:

@frozen: MuH MeDiuM ThOuGH:

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Cope from fanboys when characters they don't like have better feats is just funny. You can show the same feats in any medium if there is intent for characters to be that strong, Reeves pulled feats like this, which rival Post Crisis Superman himself, in the movie more than a decade older than Prequels, with a small budget at that. Fact that people that made Prequels intended Qui Gon and others to be fodder is something else though, and should not be blamed on Film Medium

Lol I forgot how crazy those feats were. He's stronger than comic Superman.

I'd reason that the movies aren't grounded at all. Aankin survived being burned to a crisp. Maul survived being cut in half. The new sequels show force users pulling ships from the sky - and of course, Palpatine's feats.

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Eredin12

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#42  Edited By Eredin12

@frozen: Oh yea grounded movies...

Loading Video...

Quite sad when the best they can come with is this, to try to get around fact that characters they are backing are not intended to be anywhere near this level

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frozen

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#43 frozen  Moderator

@beastt:

I also recall Witwer saying that Lucas wanted the TFU medium to be exaggerated as he thought that would be suitable for a video game.

Also, if Lucas wanted SK to be introduced in an exaggerated medium, then that's likely SK's 'true' representation. As he was specifically conceived as being more exaggerated relative to what we have seen before.

If anything, it's a point in favour of SK, not against him.

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beastt

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@frozen:

So in the case of Luke, it wouldn't really apply for the reasons you just said. He can only be assessed by the feats he performs.

He can also be assessed by statements and stats, rather than unquantifiable feats.

Even if I were to accept this medium argument, this could simply just bind Vader and not SK - if it's a high PIS feat for Vader, then it would be because SK was just that good. This happens in many verses, not just SW.

Leland Chee says that the Force as a whole is amped up in TFU, not just Starkiller:

Q: “Tasty, have you given any thought to the canon level of the sheer Force power Darth Vader's Apprentice displays in the upcoming Force Unleashed game?”

Leland Chee: The Force is definitely amped up to enhance gameplay. Star Wars in its various forms is always going to be taylored to specific mediums, whether it be for gameplay, artistic, or technical reasons. What we see in the films are the true representation of Force abilities.

https://web.archive.org/web/20070702212436/http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=1395

Witwer also says that the force "is amped up to 11":

Loading Video...

(2:55)

Also, if Lucas wanted SK to be introduced in an exaggerated medium, then that's likely SK's 'true' representation. As he was specifically conceived as being more exaggerated relative to what we have seen before.

I don't think so... Lucas wanted it to be exaggerated solely to enhance gameplay, keep in mind that he also approved Vader's power level, despite him thinking that Vader is a "cripple."

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#46 frozen  Moderator

@beastt:

He can also be assessed by statements and stats, rather than unquantifiable feats.

How is the ISD unquantifiable? It can definitely be calced to an accurate estimate.

Leland Chee says that the Force as a whole is amped up in TFU, not just Starkiller:

The problem here is that:

A) SK is not a film character, so the reference to the films shouldn't bind him and:

B) Its debatable whether the films are less exaggerated. For example, Maul survived being cut in half because of his sheer hatred. The force isn't just TK, and this is arguably more outlandish than anything seen in TFU

I don't think so... Lucas wanted it to be exaggerated solely to enhance gameplay, keep in mind that he also approved Vader's power level, despite him thinking that Vader is a "cripple"

What specifically about the gameplay is exaggerated? The gameplay doesn't look like anything a PT jedi couldn't do. Cut scenes also aren't the same as gameplay.

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beastt

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#47  Edited By beastt

@frozen:

How is the ISD unquantifiable? It can definitely be calced to an accurate estimate.

I was talking about GM Luke's feats in exaggerated mediums.

A) SK is not a film character, so the reference to the films shouldn't bind him and:

This doesn't preclude his power level being exaggerated in TFU, especially when Leland Chee explicitly says it is.

B) Its debatable whether the films are less exaggerated. For example, Maul survived being cut in half because of his sheer hatred. The force isn't just TK, and this is arguably more outlandish than anything seen in TFU

The films can't be exaggerated as when Chee says that something is exaggerated or distorted, he is comparing it to the films, the films are "the true representation of Force abilities" while TFU is "amped up." And Matt Martin seems to agree with me here:

No Caption Provided

And so does Sansweet:

When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves - and only the films.Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies.

The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.

The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Knight Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'

---

Cut scenes also aren't the same as gameplay.

Yeah, cutscenes are exaggerated as well, Sam Witwer says that if it was in a more grounded medium, then Starkiller wouldn't actually drop the ISD but some events would happen that SK is involved in that led to its collapse, or maybe slightly guided it down.

He also says that if the gameplay was in the movie medium then Starkiller would just be fighting small amounts of stormtroopers.

---

I'm not going to reply to Eredin as, in my opinion, he is not worth debating, but if anyone wants counters to his post, I can PM them.

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frozen

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#48 frozen  Moderator

@beastt:

This doesn't preclude his power level being exaggerated in TFU, especially when Leland Chee explicitly says it is

My point is that even if we accept this, it doesn't mean anything. All it would mean is that Starkiller is an exaggerated character. Given that he hasn't appeared in less exaggerated mediums, we assess him by those which he has appeared in.

The films can't be exaggerated as when Chee says that something is exaggerated or distorted, he is comparing it to the films, the films are "the true representation of Force abilities" while TFU is "amped up." And Matt Martin seems to agree with me here:

The operative word here is 'could'. Matt seems to avoid answering the question here. There's also the term of 'looking' more powerful - this doesn't necessarily mean that it is more powerful, which I'll explain soon.

The quote is "the true representation of Force abilities" are the films, but as I said earlier, the force isn't just TK. The force encompasses more then that - such as augmented physicals.

For example, Darth Maul survived being cut clean in half and falling a few hundred feet. The reasoning for his survival was that for hatred and connection to the dark side kept him alive.

Loading Video...

It was TCW (a more exaggerated medium), which recontexualized the films to include this. If say, Starkiller was sliced in half like this, he would most likely die. Many other force users have died to much less than this in more exaggerated mediums. With this in mind, do you not think the above video is exaggerated or not?

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AnderIoan

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Starkiller scales to ANH Vader and (even though Sidious was holding back to test the boy's mettle) Sidious on a good day.

Starkiller is what happens when you take a character with huge amounts of potential in the force and literally not waste a second on their training for nearly 20 years of torturous routine. He's nuts and I don't see a promising padawan and a wise master who's talents are not in battle prowess taking this battle.

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KitFisto98

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What makes you think Qui-Gon's talents are not in battle prowess when one of the most recurring themes in all sources on Qui-Gon are his skill with a lightsaber?