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#201 Posted by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio
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#202 Posted by Greysentinel365 (1650 posts) - - Show Bio
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#203 Posted by Hush114 (833 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith: are we talking starkiller from the videogame or the novel.

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#204 Posted by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio

@hush114: We use all material from the same continuity when assessing a character.

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#205 Edited by ElSebbe (22 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith said:
@elsebbe said:

@ordeith: Better dueling feats. Windu held his own against Palpatine, Starkiller, on the other hand, is incapable of that. Windu is Dooku's equal in terms of lightsaber skills who didn't from blood lusted Yoda. In the force they are comparable but due to Shatterpoint Mace should be able to win a majority

I'm unaware of a dueling feat in Mace's repertoire better then Galen's defeat of Vader in TFU.

Mace beating Palpatine fair and square in a lightsaber duel > Galen defeating Vader

Yoda was not bloodlusted in either of his fights with Dooku so I'm not sure what you're referring to here.

Yoda was going for the kill, but Dooku held his own for a time.

How exactly is shatterpoint going to make a difference? Both Mace and Caedus possessed shatterpoint but it didn't help the latter in his fight against Jaina and it didn't help the former in his fight against Sidious because neither gave openings that they could exploit. Shatterpoint only came into play in Mace's fight against Sidious because of something completed unrelated to combat. He thought he sensed fear in Sidious but it was really Anakin. I don't think I remember a single instance of Mace utilizing shatterpoint in a major duel.

Fair enough.

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#206 Edited by kbroskywalker (12446 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperordmb, there seems to be a conflict on whether there were mountains nearby

Online
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#207 Posted by LordOfTheLight (1625 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith

Please don't tell me this is your evidence for the claim that the planet was somehow sentient and focusing all of its' energy on trying to kill Kenobi. Because if it is, then the only thing you've convinced me of is that the planet was an especially powerful DS nexus that would not only have weakened lightsiders ( as all Darkside nexuses do ) but actively drained their life force. I'm not going to take a leap of logic and assume this was a sentient world that was focusing planetary levels of energy on killing Kenobi just because an author took artistic license with their descriptions.

Yes, it was stated that the planet itself was trying to kill him. It was a sentient planet, kind of. The power of the nexus was being channeled through the Sith temple, and that was trying to kill him.

It is even stated that the Sith were focusing on him. The voice in his ear, the dark side trying to kill him, and the Sith trying to get to him through visions( similar to Zannah's sorcery) were all stated to be a part of his war against the Sith.

It is also stated, that the planet hated him and tried to kill him, as though it were sentient. And considering everything, the fact that the planet knew exactly where his memories would be weak and where there would be maximum pain, drawing those memories and buried fears and bringing them to the surface, yes, one can say that the planet was sentient. Or at least, close to it. At any rate, we know that the planet was indeed, specifically trying to kill him. Every single one of its efforts were aimed at him specifically. Had there been more Jedi, it would have been distributed among them, but there weren't.

And there is simply no way that Sidious would leave something like that to chance. Even in the most powerful DS Nexus, the Jedi can simply escape, especially as he has a non-force sensitive with him. There is no other nexus being referred specifically as a "trap", there is no other nexus being stated to kill him directly( by the author, nonetheless), there is no other nexus that specifically focuses on one particular Jedi( it has been stated so many times in the novel, don't bother to refute it) trying to kill him. Sidious is sure that Kenobi and Organa will die there, and we know he rarely miscalculates.

And no, Obi Wan has been to two extremely potent DS Nexuses, Vjun and Korriban. Vjun even for Jedi padawans, did nothing more than affect their powers. Korriban too, there was little more aside from that.

In this nexus:

1. It was specifically causing him headaches from light years away.

2. Capable of causing him physical injuries like bleeding.

3. Capable of actually warping him and making him a murderer until he resists.

4. Capable of at least, trying to kill him in the force.

5. Continuously battering his mind by fears and memories buried deep within, and bringing them to the surface, like Zannah's attack( not surprising because this is a Banite nexus).

If there were two or multiple Jedi, the nexus's powers would be distributed between them, the effects growing weaker when the number increased. However since there is only one, he is handling all of the nexus's power and attempts to kill him.

Besides, there are a huge number of implications in the novel as to this.

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#208 Posted by LordOfTheLight (1625 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker

none of the quotes say anything about how the mountain was cut, that's at best a loose assumption.

I mean, why is such a simple thing so difficult to understand?

It was an effing legend. In other words, there was no real giant stabbing the mountains with a dagger creating holes.

Look, the entire landscape was described as "unreal" and the height of the towers so high, they were stated to climb to the sky. Obviously, the towers are insanely tall. So, as it happens in tribes, legends spring up:

1. A giant stabs mountains with a dagger. The act creates holes in between, and the remaining parts, the ones that are still standing, are called "The Pillars".

The only thing, we take away from this, is that the towers are indeed so tall, that the tribe is comparing them to mountains. The tribe are living in the holes that are created when the "would be giant" stabbed the ground of the mountains, but the rest of the pillars would obviously be of the same height as the mountains themselves, since they were untouched. Again, this is a legend, we only need the implication from this, not the physics.

2. Some of the people even said that the towers were the younger sun himself, flailing against his brother. Now obviously, this is a huge hyperbole, but this implies an insane amount of height.

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#209 Posted by Greysentinel365 (1650 posts) - - Show Bio

@hush114: Leeland Chee confirmed only cutscenes from the games apply. Not gameplay.

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#210 Posted by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio

@elsebbe: Mace beating Palpatine fair and square in a lightsaber duel > Galen defeating Vader

Mace disarmed Palpatine whilst amped...

Yoda was going for the kill, but Dooku held his own for a time.

Yes, and?

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#211 Edited by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight: Yes, it was stated that the planet itself was trying to kill him. It was a sentient planet, kind of. The power of the nexus was being channeled through the Sith temple, and that was trying to kill him.

Give me a quote stating that the planet was using "all of its' energy" in an attempt to kill Kenobi otherwise I can't support such a notion.

It is even stated that the Sith were focusing on him. The voice in his ear, the dark side trying to kill him, and the Sith trying to get to him through visions( similar to Zannah's sorcery) were all stated to be a part of his war against the Sith.

The Sith? I thought you said it was the planet attacking him. Sounds like it was Sith spirits assaulting his mind from how you describe it.

It is also stated, that the planet hated him and tried to kill him, as though it were sentient.

Yes... That's what we call artistic licence. I'm sure the planet didn't care much about Kenobi much either way because, generally speaking, planets in Star Wars aren't sentient.

And considering everything, the fact that the planet knew exactly where his memories would be weak and where there would be maximum pain, drawing those memories and buried fears and bringing them to the surface, yes, one can say that the planet was sentient. Or at least, close to it. At any rate, we know that the planet was indeed, specifically trying to kill him. Every single one of its efforts were aimed at him specifically. Had there been more Jedi, it would have been distributed among them, but there weren't.

You're aware that Darkside nexuses and focal points can cause painful memories to surface, weaken a Force user of the opposing alignment and even cause visions, correct? That doesn't mean the planet is some sentient creature directing all of its' energy towards attacking specific individuals.

And there is simply no way that Sidious would leave something like that to chance. Even in the most powerful DS Nexus, the Jedi can simply escape, especially as he has a non-force sensitive with him. There is no other nexus being referred specifically as a "trap", there is no other nexus being stated to kill him directly( by the author, nonetheless), there is no other nexus that specifically focuses on one particular Jedi( it has been stated so many times in the novel, don't bother to refute it) trying to kill him. Sidious is sure that Kenobi and Organa will die there, and we know he rarely miscalculates.

Clearly Sidious's plan wasn't foolproof since it failed. The Darkside Cave on Dagobah and the hut Galen Marek encountered on Kashyyyk didn't let either Luke or Galen leave until it had forced them to experience visions, so you'd be wrong. I'm not attempting to refute anything, you're the one who made the claim which is why I'm requesting that you post evidence supporting the notion that the planet was attempting to kill Kenobi specifically. Again, Sidious apparently did miscalculate given the fact that both of them survived.

And no, Obi Wan has been to two extremely potent DS Nexuses, Vjun and Korriban. Vjun even for Jedi padawans, did nothing more than affect their powers. Korriban too, there was little more aside from that.

Vjun is an oddity in that, while it's stated to be a DS nexus, somebody who was a Lightsider ( Scout ) had her own powers amplified. Bane states Korriban is a world that is weak and faded.

In this nexus:

1. It was specifically causing him headaches from light years away.

2. Capable of causing him physical injuries like bleeding.

3. Capable of actually warping him and making him a murderer until he resists.

4. Capable of at least, trying to kill him in the force.

5. Continuously battering his mind by fears and memories buried deep within, and bringing them to the surface, like Zannah's attack( not surprising because this is a Banite nexus).

1. We've seen many such sites having differing range based on their potency. And I never claimed this nexus wasn't a potent one.

2. Quote?

3. This, or things like this, are rather common amongst Darkside nexuses.

4. Quote?

5. This, or things like this, are rather common amongst Darkside nexuses.

If there were two or multiple Jedi, the nexus's powers would be distributed between them, the effects growing weaker when the number increased. However since there is only one, he is handling all of the nexus's power and attempts to kill him.

This would only be true if the planet was indeed sentient and capable of distributing its' energy in the manner you're describing.

Besides, there are a huge number of implications in the novel as to this.

I don't really care. I'm not going to assume a Darkside nexus that demonstrated unusual effects is some sentient world devoting a planet's worth of energy towards killing Kenobi unless that's outright stated.

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#212 Edited by LordOfTheLight (1625 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith

The Sith? I thought you said it was the planet attacking him. Sounds like it was Sith spirits assaulting his mind from how you describe it.

It wasn't a Sith spirit. There were no Sith spirits on Zigoola. The Sith temple, with the power of the nexus was attacking him.

Yes... That's what we call artistic licence. I'm sure the planet didn't care much about Kenobi much either way because, generally speaking, planets in Star Wars aren't sentient.

I don't really care. I'm not going to assume a Darkside nexus that demonstrated unusual effects is some sentient world devoting a planet's worth of energy towards killing Kenobi unless that's outright stated.

And then, even I don't care. Because it is stated as such. It is you is dismissing it as an author's whim. So even when a direct statement is made, if you are to dismiss it, there is not much anyone can do to convince you.

The planet itself isn't sentient. I already said it, it was the Sith Temple on the planet that was, and that was trying to kill him. The temple simply channeled the power and directed it into killing Obi Wan. The temple was the only artificial structure on the planet.

You're aware that Darkside nexuses and focal points can cause painful memories to surface, weaken a Force user of the opposing alignment and even cause visions, correct? That doesn't mean the planet is some sentient creature directing all of its' energy towards attacking specific individuals.

Yes. But nowhere even remotely close to the potency and the "detail" as exhibited here.

Clearly Sidious's plan wasn't foolproof since it failed.

It failed because he didn't understand the resiliency and strength of his would be victims in greater detail.

And considering his arrogance, considering his "necessity" to remove Kenobi and make the way for Skywalker clear, which was one of the most important things in his plan, considering his surety that they would die there( and this is coming from Sidious, I don't need to make it clear how accurate he usually is), yes, it would have succeeded had it been anyone else, and I am pretty sure he know what he was doing. As it is, it failed by the skin of his teeth.

The Darkside Cave on Dagobah and the hut Galen Marek encountered on Kashyyyk didn't let either Luke or Galen leave until it had forced them to experience visions, so you'd be wrong.

Luke was entangled into the vision and didn't leave of his own accord.

Besides, the cave on Dagobah was strong enough to negate Yoda's presence in the force( in legends) and the emperor didn't know about Yoda until he saw through Luke's mind. So, it is already extremely powerful as it is.

Again, once you are entangled in visions, it is difficult for you to leave.

Vjun is an oddity in that, while it's stated to be a DS nexus, somebody who was a Lightsider ( Scout ) had her own powers amplified. Bane states Korriban is a world that is weak and faded.

And yet, Korriban is stronger as a nexus than Ziost, a very potent nexus in the first place. Besides, all that is confirmed is that Korriban is weaker than Lehon. Bane's prejudices against the BoD, not to mention, his limited experience also color his observations.

2. Quote?

Yes:

Kenobi howled, a shocking sound of rage and pain. His hand on the helm controls wrenched their small ship's nose up, dropped its tail, dropped speed, tried to undo what he had done. And then, still howling, he let go of the helm completely. Unfisted his other hand, finger by finger, and turned away from the sight of oncoming death. Blood was pouring from his eyes, his nose, his mouth. He looked like a bleeding ghost, blood jeweled in his beard.

Credit: Wild Space

He was still in the starship and the only thing out of the ordinary was that he was possessed/controlled temporarily by the Sith. He tries to resist here, and obviously, the Sith attack him.

4. Quote?

Yes:

Awkward, nearly crippled, nearly weeping because the light side had been so long denied him, because the shouting was so loud, because his body wanted to obey it, he pushed over the temple threshold and into a place that was anathema to him...that hated him as though it were sentient...that with every step and gasping breath tried to end him in the Force.

Credit: Wild Space

3. This, or things like this, are rather common amongst Darkside nexuses.

You don't understand. The planet/Temple was specifically attacking him:

As soon as he touched it he shouted in revulsion-because he recognized it. Remembered it. Could feel its echo in his mind. This. This thing. This monstrosity had begun the nightmare. Had reached from this temple into the starship, into him, and warped him. Tried to make him a murderer by compelling him to crash the ship. The stench of death was on it, even though it was destroyed.

Credit: Wild Space

In dark side nexuses, the power is distributed and diffused throughout. In here, the power was directed( one specific power that is of telepathy, there were obviously other kinds of power, directed by other parts of the temple), specifically aimed at him by Sith technology( in this case, a modified holocron).

This would only be true if the planet was indeed sentient and capable of distributing its' energy in the manner you're describing.

Yes. It has already been stated that the planet was attacking him, that it hated him as though it were sentient:

Awkward, nearly crippled, nearly weeping because the light side had been so long denied him, because the shouting was so loud, because his body wanted to obey it, he pushed over the temple threshold and into a place that was anathema to him...that hated him as though it were sentient...that with every step and gasping breath tried to end him in the Force.

Credit: Wild Space

We have already seen that holocrons inside the temple direct their power specifically at him, from hundreds of thousands of kilometres away.

And also, it is stated that an army of Sith were trying to attack him. Even if the "Sith" mentioned here, aren't particularly strong( obviously that is so, I doubt if he would be capable enough to resist an army of competent Sith), it means that an insane amount of power is trying to attack him:

This time it was as though an army of Sith had bent their malevolent minds upon him. And though he'd fought against them, battled the shattering compulsion to fly the ship to its death...battled until he thought his sanity would give way...in the end, the Sith had won.//( because the spaceship was destroyed in the crash, not because they actually beat him, which as I have already said, he drove them back with force light)//

Jedi, submit.

Credit: Wild Space

Let us review:

1. It has been stated, your objections notwithstanding, that the planet was outright trying to kill him. That means, the DS Nexus of the planet, channeled through the Sith temple, as there is nothing else there that is dangerous( there is no fauna on the planet at all).

2. We know that the temple is capable of projecting its power specifically at Obi Wan. We also know that the temple hates him and attacks as though it were sentient.

3. We know that the amount of power attacking Obi Wan has been equated to an "army of Sith". Now, obviously, for this description, even if the army consisted of weak Sith( obviously), it is an insane amount of power trying to attack him.

Note that this is a Banite nexus, and one probably conceived( at least the temple), centuries ago, so it is perfectly possible and probable for it to be different from other nexuses.

Quotes 3 and 1 should make it obvious, that the planet/DS Nexus of the planet was trying to kill him, specifically. Unless you want to dismiss this too as an author's whim?

As I said before, this wasn't personal towards Obi Wan. But it is personal to any Jedi. Any other Jedi, and the nexus would have reacted in the same way. But it is made obvious that the nexus is reacting. It is not the imprint of the dark side passively reacting to any Jedi, rather it is the Sith reacting to the presence of Jedi on the planet, and trying to kill him.

Note that the "Sith" are always being referred to in person here. Why? There are no Sith spirits over there, and Dooku and Sidious are light years away, which is known to both the would-be-victims. It is because the author itself, wants to say that the power attacking him is sentient( she outright said it in a quote). At least, it is semi-sentient, with enough thought to know that a Jedi is there nearby, and directing massive amounts of power to kill him.

Also, once Obi Wan steps into the temple, it starts shaking, and begins the process of self destruction.

The moment he set foot beneath the temple roof the building's bones began to tremble, revolted by his presence. Rejecting him like poison. Deep beneath him a tremor ran through the Zigoolan ground. And the voice in his head began to scream...and scream...and scream...

Credit: Wild Space

Enough to prove it is semi-sentient, at the very least.

Besides, individual holocrons in the temple are so powerful, Obi Wan thinks Yoda would not have been allowed to touch them safely:

Obi-Wan shook his head. "They were poison, Master. Steeped in the dark side. I think it likely not even you would have been allowed to touch them safely."

That made him stare. "Indeed?"

"Indeed," said Obi-Wan, and held his stern gaze.

Credit: Wild Space

He knows, because he's been in the temple and smashed several holocrons himself, though the whole ordeal on Zigoola nearly kills him.

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#213 Edited by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight

It wasn't a Sith spirit. There were no Sith spirits on Zigoola. The Sith temple, with the power of the nexus was attacking him.

Can you please quote where it says the full power of the nexus was supporting the temple's assault on Kenobi.

And then, even I don't care. Because it is stated as such. It is you is dismissing it as an author's whim. So even when a direct statement is made, if you are to dismiss it, there is not much anyone can do to convince you.

The text doesn't state it was sentient though. It said "as though" it were sentient showing that while the nexus was abhorrent to one such as Kenobi and caused him physical and mental hardships it was not attacking him because it was personally offended by his presence or had been ordered to by Sidious as you seem to be suggesting.

The planet itself isn't sentient. I already said it, it was the Sith Temple on the planet that was, and that was trying to kill him. The temple simply channeled the power and directed it into killing Obi Wan. The temple was the only artificial structure on the planet.

Please provide me the quote stating the the temple was channeling the full power of the nexus to kill Kenobi and that it was "sentient."

Yes. But nowhere even remotely close to the potency and the "detail" as exhibited here.

I never denied the potency of the nexus. I doubted your claim of the planet's sentience.

It failed because he didn't understand the resiliency and strength of his would be victims in greater detail.

Yes. Though I'm curious about Organa. If the planet was truly a sentient creature capable of directing planetary levels of energy rather then a Force nexus, it shouldn't have had any trouble killing Bail.

And considering his arrogance, considering his "necessity" to remove Kenobi and make the way for Skywalker clear, which was one of the most important things in his plan, considering his surety that they would die there( and this is coming from Sidious, I don't need to make it clear how accurate he usually is), yes, it would have succeeded had it been anyone else, and I am pretty sure he know what he was doing. As it is, it failed by the skin of his teeth.

Maybe it would've. Maybe it wouldn't have. Regardless, neither outcome necessitates that the planet is some sentient creature directing planetary levels of energy at its' target.

Luke was entangled into the vision and didn't leave of his own accord. Besides, the cave on Dagobah was strong enough to negate Yoda's presence in the force( in legends) and the emperor didn't know about Yoda until he saw through Luke's mind. So, it is already extremely powerful as it is. Again, once you are entangled in visions, it is difficult for you to leave.

Again, I'm not saying the nexus Kenobi encountered in Wild Space or the cave on Dagobah were weak. I'm simply pointing out that for a nexus to achieve the effect you're describing they don't need to possess sentience.

And yet, Korriban is stronger as a nexus than Ziost, a very potent nexus in the first place. Besides, all that is confirmed is that Korriban is weaker than Lehon. Bane's prejudices against the BoD, not to mention, his limited experience also color his observations.

Quote regarding Ziost's potency in comparison to other nexuses? Though again, I'm not doubting the potency of the nexus in Wild Space. Just its' sentience.

Yes:

He was still in the starship and the only thing out of the ordinary was that he was possessed/controlled temporarily by the Sith. He tries to resist here, and obviously, the Sith attack him.

I thought you said there weren't any Sith spirits on the planet?

Yes:

You don't understand. The planet/Temple was specifically attacking him:

The temple "trying" to end him might have been enough to convince me but unfortunately it's preceded by "as though" in regards to its' sentience showing that while it may appear to be sentient, in reality, it's not.

In dark side nexuses, the power is distributed and diffused throughout. In here, the power was directed( one specific power that is of telepathy, there were obviously other kinds of power, directed by other parts of the temple), specifically aimed at him by Sith technology( in this case, a modified holocron).

Plenty of characters have suffered trying mental and spiritual ordeals on Darkside nexuses. It's not telepathy, it's a passive corruption of their spirit and tainting of their thoughts based on the surrounding Darkside/Lightside energies. You'r going to have to go into more detail regarding this Sith technology.

Yes. It has already been stated that the planet was attacking him, that it hated him as though it were sentient:

Exactly. "As though" meaning, as much as it may seem to be sentient, it's not.

We have already seen that holocrons inside the temple direct their power specifically at him, from hundreds of thousands of kilometres away.

And also, it is stated that an army of Sith were trying to attack him. Even if the "Sith" mentioned here, aren't particularly strong( obviously that is so, I doubt if he would be capable enough to resist an army of competent Sith), it means that an insane amount of power is trying to attack him:

Again, I thought you said there weren't any Sith spirits on the planet?

Let us review:

1. It has been stated, your objections notwithstanding, that the planet was outright trying to kill him. That means, the DS Nexus of the planet, channeled through the Sith temple, as there is nothing else there that is dangerous( there is no fauna on the planet at all).

2. We know that the temple is capable of projecting its power specifically at Obi Wan. We also know that the temple hates him and attacks as though it were sentient.

3. We know that the amount of power attacking Obi Wan has been equated to an "army of Sith". Now, obviously, for this description, even if the army consisted of weak Sith( obviously), it is an insane amount of power trying to attack him.

1. It's been stated to appear "as though" it possesses sentience which means, while that may seem to be the case, it's actually not. Kenobi went through extreme mental and physical hardships but, artistic license notwithstanding, the attacks weren't personally directed by the nexus.

2. I don't know that. You haven't provided me a quote suggesting or showing me that that's the case.

3. Sure. It's definitely doesn't mean that it's the equivalent of planetary stores of energy though.

Note that this is a Banite nexus, and one probably conceived( at least the temple), centuries ago, so it is perfectly possible and probable for it to be different from other nexuses.

Different? Sure. Sentient? That's a big leap in logic.

Quotes 3 and 1 should make it obvious, that the planet/DS Nexus of the planet was trying to kill him, specifically. Unless you want to dismiss this too as an author's whim?

The first quote you posted has Kenobi bleeding profusely, by your own admission was caused by "Sith." Though since you claimed there were no Sith spirits on the planet earlier this seems to contradict your previous statements.

"He was still in the starship and the only thing out of the ordinary was that he was possessed/controlled temporarily by the Sith. He tries to resist here, and obviously, the Sith attack him."

The third quote you posted is Obi Wan feeling as if he's being corrupted and warped by the nexus. This has happened to nearly every Lightside character on a Darkside nexus so I don't see why you'd think that would be proof of anything.

As I said before, this wasn't personal towards Obi Wan. But it is personal to any Jedi. Any other Jedi, and the nexus would have reacted in the same way. But it is made obvious that the nexus is reacting. It is not the imprint of the dark side passively reacting to any Jedi, rather it is the Sith reacting to the presence of Jedi on the planet, and trying to kill him.

Except it's not since the very quotes you posted state otherwise. The planet, though it may seem to be, is not sentient. What Sith are you referring to here? And why would their whims have anything to do with the nexuses energy? Is there some quote saying they were directing the planet's energy in attacks against Kenobi?

Note that the "Sith" are always being referred to in person here. Why? There are no Sith spirits over there, and Dooku and Sidious are light years away, which is known to both the would-be-victims. It is because the author itself, wants to say that the power attacking him is sentient( she outright said it in a quote). At least, it is semi-sentient, with enough thought to know that a Jedi is there nearby, and directing massive amounts of power to kill him.

So you're saying the Sith refers to the planet? Please give me a quote where the text indicates this.

Please provide this quote stating that it's sentient and that it was directing planetary levels of energy towards ending Kenobi's life.

Also, once Obi Wan steps into the temple, it starts shaking, and begins the process of self destruction.

-

Enough to prove it is semi-sentient, at the very least.

Is this from Obi Wan's perspective or third person?

Besides, individual holocrons in the temple are so powerful, Obi Wan thinks Yoda would not have been allowed to touch them safely:

He also comments that he wasn't sure if Yoda could hold back a theta storm like mid Clone Wars Anakin despite we, the fans, knowings that Yoda is more powerful then a character able to contain planet razing energies. Obi Wan clearly doesn't understand the extent of Yoda's capabilities.

He knows, because he's been in the temple and smashed several holocrons himself, though the whole ordeal on Zigoola nearly kills him.

And?

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#214 Edited by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight: Before you respond, I just need to inform you you're unlikely to convince me that Obi Wan faced a sentient planet that directed all of its' energy towards the goal of ending his life. I find almost any possibility far more likely, including Sidious setting up Darkside traps around the planet in preparation for their arrival or utilizing Sith sorcery to carry out the mental and physical assaults Kenobi found himself under. The planet being sentient is so improbable in my eyes, nothing would change my mind regarding the matter other then an outright statement confirming that the planet is indeed sentient.

To put our differences regarding this matter into perspective, the quote you believe to be a confirmation that it is sentient is an active confirmation that it's not in my eyes.

Putting that to the side though, even if Kenobi had fended off planetary level attacks, I would not put his superior ( Windu ) above Galen ( Starkiller's inferior ). The reason being, Galen fended off an assault from a desperate Sidious and the lightning generated between the two was powerful enough to pierce Sidious's Force defenses. I personally believe that to be above planetary level in scope. We can discuss that if you like and I feel we'd likely make more progress in that arena rather then continuing to discuss the possible sentience of the nexus Kenobi encountered in Wild Space, but I've leaving that up to you.

( Note: If you want, we can get the nexus matter settled by asking whether or not the planet was sentient and directing all its' energy to attack Kenobi to the author themselves. It's a longshot, but they might answer. )

I also created a poll regarding the matter for the public to vote on: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/did-obi-wan-fend-of-planetary-levels-of-energy-fro-1892751/

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#215 Posted by thesithmaster (2217 posts) - - Show Bio

Galen fended off an assault from a desperate Sidious and the lightning generated between the two was powerful enough to pierce Sidious's Force defenses.

Painfully obvious Oneness one-off example is painfully obvious Oneness one-off example.

Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with a strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like child's play.

The Force Unleashed novel

Bombarded by Force lightning, Starkiller did not fight back but instead unleashed all the power of the Force within him, causing a tremendous blast that shattered the Emperor's tower and caused enough of a distraction to allow Eclipse and the Rebel Senators to escape.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Without oneness:

Lightsabers clashed inside the Emperor's observation dome, but Starkiller was ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Yeah, it's non-canon but it was a few minutes after the canon story ended, so it made no sense for the characters' abilities to change.
Yeah, it's non-canon but it was a few minutes after the canon story ended, so it made no sense for the characters' abilities to change.
No Caption Provided

Galen vs Vader:

No Caption Provided

Galen's canonical superior vs Vader one year later:

No Caption Provided

Sidious vs ESB Vader:

Boarding his shuttle, he ordered the pilot to lift off. A pity, my son, he thought. You could have joined me and together...we could have destroyed the Emperor and ruled the galaxy in his place. As he stared at the severed appendage in his hands, a sudden flash of insight struck the Dark Lord, realization dawning like the sunrise of Bespin. Perhaps, if you will not be turned, little Jedi, a suitable substitute may be arranged.

Suddenly, Vader was struck to his knees by the horribly powerful voice that rolled like fiery thunder through his brain. The pilots struggled vainly to ignore the Dark Lord's...discomfort."Yes, my servant," the voice boomed in his mind, dripping raw evil. "Come to Mount Tantiss, immediately. I shall meet you there, and we will discuss my new trophy."

"Yes...my Master," Vader gasped, feeling an icy stab of dread in his soul, as the Emperor's mocking chuckle still echoed in his mind. His Master had detected his rebellious thoughts. This discussion would be most unpleasant. Most unpleasant indeed.

The Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook: Clone B-2332-54

ESB Vader being considerably more powerful than TFU/TFU II Vader Galen/Galen clone faced.

Within the armored forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.

Insider #62

Galen could barely hold a 1600m Star Destroyer and redirect it, nearly dying in the process:

Kota’s voice unexpectedly came in reply. “What’s going on, boy?”

Can’t you see it, he wanted to say, then realized who he was talking to. He described the scene in as few words as he could, unable to tear his gaze away from the sight of the disintegrating shipyards. Huge, molten chunks were tearing free and tumbling either out into deep space or down into lower orbits while further explosions continued to tear the facility apart. The scaffolding around the nearly completed Star Destroyer had bent and torn completely away, leaving the ship free to power down into the atmosphere of Raxus Prime. Already it was visible as a distinct triangle glowing orange around its leading edges and conning tower. It was coming directly toward him.

It was aiming for him.

“Juno can’t fly the ship at the moment,” said Kota firmly, “and neither can PROXY. We have to find another solution.”

“What’s wrong with Juno?”

“Concentrate on what’s important, boy. That Star Destroyer is coming down fast. You’ll never get clear in time. You need to pull it into the cannon.”

The apprentice was temporarily lost for words when he realized what Kota was suggesting.

Kota wanted him to move the Star Destroyer using nothing but the Force.

“You’re insane,” he gasped. “It’s massive!”

“What is mass?” Kota said. “It’s all in your mind, boy. You’re a Jedi! Size means nothing to you!”

Kota’s voice had changed. The surly, drunken slur was completely absent; in its place was the durasteel bark of the seasoned combat veteran the apprentice had first met.

“Can you hear me, boy? Reach out and grab that ship, or you’ll die on this trash heap!”

The Star Destroyer was growing visibly larger and hung like a burning, triangular moon low in the sky of Raxus Prime.

You’re a Jedi! Size means nothing to you!

He wasn’t a Jedi but the message was the same. The Force didn’t recognize big or small, heavy or light, hard or easy. The living flows of the galaxy encompassed all scales, from the very small to the extremely large. The Star Destroyer was part of it, and so was he. The Force bound them as surely as gravity. He could make its invisible muscles flex, if he dared.

Had his Master ever done anything like this? Had the Emperor? Had any Sith or Jedi in the history of the galaxy?

He doubted anyone would ever know about his success or failure in the next few minutes.

“Be quick about it, boy!”

Fast or slow were also irrelevant to the Force, but the apprentice took Kota’s point. The sooner he started, the sooner it would be done.

Deactivating his lightsaber and attaching the hilt to his belt, he adopted the opening stance of the Soresu form, with his right arm and fingers outstretched, pointing at the Star Destroyer. His empty left hand he tucked in next to his heart. With his legs braced firmly in the trash, he reached as deep as he had ever reached into the Force, and then went farther still, feeling as though a mighty chasm had opened up under him and his mind and will plunged down into it. The chasm filled. His mind opened. The physical existence of the Star Destroyer slid painlessly inside.

Nearly sixteen hundred meters long and capable of carrying a crew in excess of thirty-seven thousand, the ship was a familiar design. Its engines and armament weren’t fully installed, but its Class One hyperdrive would have taken it anywhere in the Empire at speed, there to deploy walkers, fighters, barges, and shuttles. Armed with a host of turbolaser and ion cannons, plus no less than ten tractor beams, it could have blockaded an entire system on its own. The reinforced durasteel hull was solid enough to rip a gouge in Raxus Prime that might take centuries to fill. Scavenger droids would have a field day when it came down.

Wherever it went down …

There is no wherever, he told himself. There is only where I tell it to.

Focus.

The tip of his right index finger and the Star Destroyer became as one in his mind. Every nut and bolt and plate and wire of the massive machine was contained within that tiny space. It wasn’t hard to move an arm, a finger, a single human cell. He could direct one barely without thinking, so why not the other, too? Instinct was clearer on that point than the workings of his mind. Ignoring perspective, the two were about the same size in his field of vision.

Except the Star Destroyer was growing larger with each passing second, and waves of TIE fighters and TIE bombers were pouring forth from its brand-new hangar decks. Laserfire cut huge super-hot channels through the atmosphere ahead of them.

The apprentice ignored it all. While the illusion held, he moved his hand a very slight distance to his right. The sensation of containing a vast, million-ton machine in the tip of one finger was deeply disorienting. He felt as though every muscle fiber, nerve, and bone groaned along with the metal seams and joints of the ship. What it felt, he felt, too, and even a small acceleration had a profound effect on such a large scale. It resisted with all the momentum it possessed. Hatches swang open; rivets popped; bulkheads twisted; pipes burst.

The Star Destroyer didn’t appear to have moved much in the sky. It was still coming in low on the horizon, aiming to pass over him and strafe him from above. He shifted his hand a second time, but instead of changing its course he mistakenly gave it a slight tumble. He needed to apply the Force the right way for this to work, taking the growing forces of friction and the shifting of its center of gravity into account. A spinning Star Destroyer would do more damage than one burying itself nose-first into the cannon and its superstructure. Damage was good, when it came to destroying the Emperor’s handiwork, but too much damage could destroy him and perhaps the Rogue Shadow as well under a deadly rain of molten shrapnel.

Bring it down in one piece, he told himself. Bring it down hard.

The ship growled and squealed in metal torment. He was getting the hang of it; he could see how its course was slowly shifting. As wide across as his outstretched hand now, it was hitting the atmosphere at a steeper angle than he had intended, burning bright red and already gouting a trail of black smoke and sparkling debris. He became aware of a sound communicated through his feet: a rumbling much deeper and more sustained than the pounding of the cannon, which had fallen silent after the firing of the third projectile. The Star Destroyer’s incomplete frame was acting like a giant tube, and the atmosphere was resonating inside. His whole body sang with it.

More. The Star Destroyer was really picking up speed now. The thickening atmosphere had a slight braking effect, but nothing could prevent the inevitable. It was going to hit soon. A wild exodus of droids ran past him, fleeing the crash site. The TIE fighters it had launched raced ahead of the chaotic atmospheric waves it generated. He ignored them and concentrated on shifting ground zero as close to the cannon as he could.

Sparks danced in front of his eyes. The edges of his vision faded to black. Light and dark swirls spun around him, wraith-like. He felt momentarily faint and wondered if it was possible to dissolve into the Force. He was a speck caught in the updraft over a forest fire—yet somehow he had the audacity to try to command the fire to do his will.

Who did he think he was?

A sudden panic almost made him lose control. The Star Destroyer, now a burning, shrieking meteor, filled his entire forward vision. The hull was peeling away in fiery, golden strips, each one weighing hundreds of tons, exposing the darker skeleton beneath. It looked like a death’s-head, a ghastly mask not dissimilar to his Master’s, but one molten like lava. This could well be the end of everything, he thought distantly. Of him, of his plans, of his feelings for Juno, and of the boy called Galen who had lost a father a long time ago and whose grief had already been effectively erased.

But his name had survived, and names had power. The apprentice clutched at it with desperation, needing to regain control of the Star Destroyer lest it tear itself apart and disperse the impact. He needed to find his focus again, to ignore the feeling of dissolution eating at the edges of his self, and to tip the balance of power back toward him.

Galen had stood up to Darth Vader as little more than a child. Galen had wrested the lightsaber from a Dark Lord of the Sith and stood bravely in the face of death. Galen may have been ground down by years of training and darkness since, but was he truly gone—or had he just gone into hiding until the opportunity came to emerge back into the light?

Are you there, Galen? I need your help!

No answer came.

The Star Destroyer’s catastrophic reentry made the world shake. There was no time to try again.

For Juno, then.

He gritted his teeth and snarled at the sky. The dead weight of the Star Destroyer shifted one last time, changing its angle of descent just enough to hang together those last few hundred meters, but not enough to risk bouncing. Only seconds remained before it hit and it was still getting bigger. It was impossible that the sky could contain so much metal!

Abandoning his control over the ship, knowing there was nothing now that he could do to alter its course, the apprentice staggered backward, dazed. The Force fled from him, leaving him wrung out and drained. With a sound like the world ending, the Star Destroyer completed its first and final journey. It hit the cannon, exactly as it was supposed to, and the sky turned white. The ground buckled beneath the apprentice’s feet. He pinwheeled, unable to find his balance, as a tsunami of junk and waste rose up ahead of him and blotted out the sun.

The Force Unleashed novel

Heck, he was failing until he did it for Juno, a circumstance that has been shown to amp him. So, without Juno for Galen to try this for, he most likely wouldn't have achieved it.

Sidious buried a 19000m Star Destroyer with less effort.

Years before, one of a number of Super Star Destroyers comissioned by the Emperor had disappeared. In fact, as a demonstration of Palpatine's dark side powers, he had buried the Lusankya at the edge of Imperial City.

The Official Star Wars Fact File #9

Last but certainly not least:

The Emperor appeared out of the settling smoke, glee on his face. He raised one hand as though to touch the apprentice. The apprentice felt a wave of hypnotic suggestion flow through him.

Yes! Kill him! He is weak, broken! Kill him and you can take your rightful place at my side!

The apprentice remained frozen, mesmerized by the Emperor's ghastly charisma. Why not? Wasn't this what he had considered on Raxus Prime? If he agreed to that plan, he would be free of one Master and slave to another - but what was to stop him from attacking that Master in turn, one day? He would not make the same mistake Darth Vader had.

Darth Vader - who had murdered his father, lied to and betrayed him, killed PROXY, branded Juno a traitor, and kidnapped Kota and the others. Didn't he deserve to die a thousand times over?

And power - he had become used to it in the service of his Master. When the dark side sang through him, others danced to his will. That would be hard to give up.

"No!" Kota's voice came through as though from a great distance. The apprentice noted, as though viewing the world in slow motion, the Jedi Master telekinetically snatching the Emperor's lightsaber from his waist and, with surely belying his physical blindness, using it to cut down the Imperial Guards watching the prisoners. Lunging forward, he struck next at the Emperor, who stood, apparently unarmed, with one hand still reaching out for the apprentice.

But the Emperor was never unarmed. Raising his other hand, he blasted Kota with lightinng before the blow came close to falling. Sith energy crackled between them and the Jedi Master fell back, caught in the Emperor's deadly grip.

"Help him!"

Bail Organa's voice snapped the apprentice out of his trance. He shook his head, feeling the Emperor's influence sliding off him like oil. What had he been thinking? He didn't want to return to the dark side after everything he had been through. he had seen what it did, in Maris Brood, on Felucia, and in the eyes of Darth Vader.

And while doing all of this (stomping Galen with Lightning while visibly toying, dominating a version of Vader considerably superior to the one that dominated Galen's canonical superior, burying a 19000m Star Destroyer with much less effort than it took Galen to slightly hurl aside a 1600m Star Destroyer, telepathically influecing Galen) Sidious wasn't using his full power, due to using some of it to achieving this:

Almost mindless under the oppression of the Emperor's dark side influence, the people of Byss find their life energies constantly leeched off during the Emperor's vile machinations.

Throughout the worlds submissive to the Empire, Byss is renowned as a paradise, whose siren call multitudes to willingly apply for emigration to its shores. Once there, wrapped in the power of the dark side, the immigrants become completely submissive, their life energy forever enslaved to the mind that would devour a galaxy.

Dark Empire Endnotes

The galaxy is choked with beings. Billions die every instant. It is better to make use of this resource. At my retreat on Byss, the life force of its colonists supplied an energy pool to sustain my dark side experiments.

Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

Imperial ships ferried millions of immigrants to the planet Byss, where the Emperor fed off their life energies through the dark side.

The New Essential Guide to Characters

After choosing Byss as his resort world, Palpatine lured eager nobles to the planet—then used his dark powers to enslave its people, channeling their life energies for use in his own vile experiments within the fell Imperial Citadel.

The Essential Atlas

Years ago, Emperor Palpatine chose Byss as his private retreat, and Imperial architects and engineers were commissioned to build him an opulent palace. Several million humans were allowed to emigrate to the world, where the Emperor and his adepts used the dark side to feed off their life energies. The planet's population eventually reached almost 20 billion, and all outgoing communications were censored by security agents.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

No Caption Provided

Telepathically dominating/draining 20 billion people. Sidious clearly had to devote some of his power to that.

So basically, while never using his full power, a toying Sidious curbstomped Galen with Lightning, stomped ESB Vader, who's much better than TFU II Vader who dominated Galen's canonical superior, buried a 19000m Star Destroyer with much less effort than it took Galen, with favorable circumstances, to somewhat redirect a 1600m Star Destroyer.

If this does not prove Sidious>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Marek, I don't know what does.

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#216 Edited by LordOfTheLight (1625 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith

Before you respond, I just need to inform you you're unlikely to convince me that Obi Wan faced a sentient planet that directed all of its' energy towards the goal of ending his life. I find almost any possibility far more likely, including Sidious setting up Darkside traps around the planet in preparation for their arrival or utilizing Sith sorcery to carry out the mental and physical assaults Kenobi found himself under. The planet being sentient is so improbable in my eyes, nothing would change my mind regarding the matter other then an outright statement confirming that the planet is indeed sentient.

Before you respond, let me tell you this: the planet is nothing here. It is the Sith temple which is the real deal. It is that, which has at least moderate amounts of sentience. Are you so adverse to technology or Banite Dark side technology being sentient? You surely know that even droids are sentient, some of them at least.

Look, it is outright said that the Sith technology mentioned here, is sentient:

With each jarring footfall Bail felt the lightsaber gently slap him. He resented its presence. Dreaded what it meant. Dreaded that Obi-Wan would finally succumb to this place. He couldn't begin to understand the kind of technology that could do this, that could reach into a Jedi's mind, a mind as strong and disciplined and formidable as Obi-Wan's, and tear it apart piecemeal, memory by memory.

He couldn't understand a sentient being who'd want to.

Credit: Wild Space

However, you continuing to mention "the planet is sentient" doesn't cut it. The Sith temple is the nexus of the planet, and so far, we have seen that these attacks are carried out by the temple, personally.

There are no Sith spirits. That is the deal here, everything, every single attack is carried out by Sith technology in the temple.

Bail let go of his shoulders and struck him open-handed across the face, hard. "Stop listening to it! It's just a voice, Obi-Wan! It's not even that, it's a machine, a stinking Sith machine, and it's trying to kill you. It's trying to get you to kill yourself. Don't give in to it. Remember who you are. You're Master Obi-Wan Kenobi, one of the greatest Jedi we have. You've beaten the Sith three times now. You can beat them again. You can."

Credit: Wild Space

All the references to "Sith" is the technology in the temple.

The text doesn't state it was sentient though. It said "as though" it were sentient showing that while the nexus was abhorrent to one such as Kenobi and caused him physical and mental hardships it was not attacking him because it was personally offended by his presence or had been ordered to by Sidious as you seem to be suggesting.

It "was" personally offended by his presence. Sheesh, didn't you see this:

The moment he set foot beneath the temple roof the building's bones began to tremble, revolted by his presence. Rejecting him like poison. Deep beneath him a tremor ran through the Zigoolan ground. And the voice in his head began to scream...and scream...and scream...

Credit: Wild Space

It is the narrator's perspective. I mean, that should be obvious. He is describing Obi Wan in the third person perspective here.

And tell me, would a non-sentient thing be "revolted by his presence"?

Yes. Though I'm curious about Organa. If the planet was truly a sentient creature capable of directing planetary levels of energy rather then a Force nexus, it shouldn't have had any trouble killing Bail.

It was stated forthright that it focuses on force sensitives, or Jedi in this case. That the nexus deemed Bail as a non-entity.

I thought you said there weren't any Sith spirits on the planet?

Yes, there aren't. It is Sith technology.

The temple "trying" to end him might have been enough to convince me but unfortunately it's preceded by "as though" in regards to its' sentience showing that while it may appear to be sentient, in reality, it's not.

And that is from Obi Wan's perspective, not the narrator's.

Obi Wan actually thinking that the temple might be sentient is enough. He's been to Korriban before, and he clearly never thought anything like that there, not to mention, there the proceedings were actually being controlled by Dooku.

2. We know that the temple is capable of projecting its power specifically at Obi Wan. We also know that the temple hates him and attacks as though it were sentient.

2. I don't know that. You haven't provided me a quote suggesting or showing me that that's the case.

Yes, and what is this:

As soon as he touched it he shouted in revulsion-because he recognized it. Remembered it. Could feel its echo in his mind. This. This thing. This monstrosity had begun the nightmare. Had reached from this temple into the starship, into him, and warped him. Tried to make him a murderer by compelling him to crash the ship. The stench of death was on it, even though it was destroyed.

Credit: Wild Space

This is not the "passive" effect of the nexus. It is specifically saying that Sith technology had, personally, reached into the starship and warped him. The effects are vastly more potent, and while they may be similar to other nexuses, the manner of attack is completely different.

In other nexuses, the power is diffused. You can understand, that the power was directed by this technology, specifically to attack him. It is not diffused.

So you're saying the Sith refers to the planet? Please give me a quote where the text indicates this.

It refers to the Sith technology of the temple. The planet isn't Zonama Sekot.

Please provide this quote stating that it's sentient and that it was directing planetary levels of energy towards ending Kenobi's life.

IDK, didn't I provide the quote that the "planet" was trying to kill him? Which means, the nexus of the planet, obviously. That is planetary levels of energy trying to kill him.

And haven't you seen the ton of quotes stating that the technology of the temple was personally carrying out all the attacks against him? Haven't you seen Obi Wan's perspective where he compares the nexus of the planet/temple to a sentient being? Haven't you seen the other quote which says that it was sentient?

Haven't you seen those quotes which say that the "Sith" attacked him? Those are not spirits, but Sith technology. Which is being referred to as in person here. In person, because it actually might be. The thing even gets "revolted by his presence", and here, you are still parroting the same old things from the 1st conversation?

3. Sure. It's definitely doesn't mean that it's the equivalent of planetary stores of energy though.

Except that "planetary stores of energy" have already been stated, directly, because it has already been stated that the "planet" was trying to kill him. Look, the way you are going, you act as though the writer has to be as blunt as a primary school kid.

Also, an "army of Sith" were trying to direct their power against him. This statement complements the one that says that the "planet was trying to kill him".

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#217 Edited by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio

@thesithmaster: Painfully obvious Oneness one-off example is painfully obvious Oneness one-off example.

I'm not sure whether you're making this argument because you're ignorant or because you're blatantly ignoring context, regardless of your intent, here's the sequence of events that occurred in the novel which shows your argument is incorrect.

"Kota fell with his arms upraised, and the apprentice knew that it wasn't over yet. The moment of truth had arrived. Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body. The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells, skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor. "Go!" he hissed at Kota. "Hurry!" The general hesitated only for a moment. He, too, had seen a glimpse of the future, the apprentice remembered. He knew that it came down to a simple choice: him and the Rebels or the apprentice and darkness forever. Gathering up the Rebels, Kola ushered them toward the descending ship. Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain. Darkness threatened to envelop the apprentice's mind, but he clutched to consciousness with feverish will. He had to see this through. He had to. A squadron of stormtroopers ran into the room, led by a limping Darth Vader. They raised their blasters to gun down the Rebels as they fled up the Rogue Shadow's ramp. "No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava. He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor. Shrapnel filled the air like dust caught in the beam of the Death Star's powerful laser." - The Force Unleashed.

I can only hope it was the former and that now that I've shown you the sequence of events you'll stop spreading this bit of misinformation, though admittedly my hopes aren't high.

Without oneness:

"Lightsabers clashed inside the Emperor's observation dome, but Starkiller was ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious." - The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia.

Sorry, but can you explain how this contradicts my claim? I don't believe I ever said Galen was Sidious's equal.

Yeah, it's non-canon but it was a few minutes after the canon story ended, so it made no sense for the characters' abilities to change.

Sorry, but what does that have to do with anything? A non canon event is a non canon event. It has no relevance to the character's capabilities within the lore.

Addressing the scan you posted of Sidious downing Galen with lightning, he does the same to Yoda in their fight in RotS despite the two being near equals as Force user's.

No Caption Provided

What makes a feat like this evidence for Sidious being far above one character but only slightly more powerful then another?

Galen vs Vader:

Vader grips him before throwing him across the room. Galen accomplishes an even better feat battering Vader into submission despite Vader trying to defend and free himself from Marek's grip. What does this have to do with the quote you're addressing?

Galen's canonical superior vs Vader one year later:

As we've been over many times, Starkiller had used up vast amounts of energy prior to fighting Vader meaning what Vader accomplished against him in their fight is not necessarily something he can replicate against a prime Starkiller. And again, what does this have to do with the quote you're addressing?

Sidious vs ESB Vader:

And? You're aware that Sidious's power would have increased from TFU to ESB due to his constant draining of Byss, correct? Also, much like Dooku with Sidious, Vader couldn't show any resistance lest he bring further punishment down upon himself.

ESB Vader being considerably more powerful than TFU/TFU II Vader Galen/Galen clone faced.

It doesn't say "considerably more powerful" in the quote you provided or even that he's grown more powerful at all. Only more masterful.

Galen could barely hold a 1600m Star Destroyer and redirect it, nearly dying in the process:

Sorry, where does it say that Galen nearly died attempting to alter the descent of the Star Destroyer? The most it says in the quote you provided is that he's "dazed" after accomplishing the feat. This isn't mentioning that he'd overcharged an ore cannon to blast apart a superstructure that dwarfed ISD's in size prior to accomplishing the feat. The superstructure wouldn't have even been hit without the energy Marek added to the blast given it would have needed to have been re-aimed without it meaning the blast that destroyed it was all him. He goes on to face an army of droids and a core amped Proxy after he guides the Star Destroyer down as well.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Consider also that he's stated to grow in power after nearly every mission and that he's able to easily use abilities that he had been unable to as of his mission to Raxus Prime prior to facing Vader and Sidious.

Heck, he was failing until he did it for Juno, a circumstance that has been shown to amp him. So, without Juno for Galen to try this for, he most likely wouldn't have achieved it.

This is false. He's actively guiding it down prior to having any thoughts about Juno. He only starts to struggle near the end because he loses confidence in himself.

Sidious buried a 19000m Star Destroyer with less effort.

Cool. And that's relevant to my statement, why?

Last but certainly not least:

Yes, Sidious caused conflict and indecision in a Lightsider who less then a few weeks ago had been a Sith apprentice who primarily used the Darkside. Don't know why this is so surprising.

And while doing all of this (stomping Galen with Lightning while visibly toying, dominating a version of Vader considerably superior to the one that dominated Galen's canonical superior, burying a 19000m Star Destroyer with much less effort than it took Galen to slightly hurl aside a 1600m Star Destroyer, telepathically influecing Galen) Sidious wasn't using his full power, due to using some of it to achieving this:

The first half of your post were all either pitiful attempts to ignore relevant context or straight out lies. As for Sidious's draining of Byss, you can't have it both ways. Either Sidious believed the extra Force energy he gained from draining Byss was more beneficial to him then fully concentrating on carrying out a Force feat or vice versa. Unless you're actively suggesting Sidious allowed his Force defenses to be broken through while he was in a desperate state, we have to assume he was doing everything in his power to prevent such a thing from happening.

Telepathically dominating/draining 20 billion people. Sidious clearly had to devote some of his power to that.

Addressed above.

So basically, while never using his full power, a toying Sidious curbstomped Galen with Lightning, stomped ESB Vader, who's much better than TFU II Vader who dominated Galen's canonical superior, buried a 19000m Star Destroyer with much less effort than it took Galen, with favorable circumstances, to somewhat redirect a 1600m Star Destroyer.

Addressed above.

If this does not prove Sidious>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Marek, I don't know what does.

Apparently not. Don't take it too hard. I haven't met anyone who can.

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#218 Edited by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight: Before I look your post over, is there anything new in there or just the same arguments you've reworded or altered slightly?

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#219 Edited by kbroskywalker (12446 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith: dude the quote says he's become much more formidable overall, it applies to both his dueling and force ablities

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#220 Posted by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith: dude the quote says he's become much more formidable overall, it applies to both his dueling and force ablities

It states Vader improved in Force mastery and his skill with the blade and that he became more formidable overall. Not that he grew in power. Though I don't doubt that he did as there are quotes stating such.

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#221 Posted by LordOfTheLight (1625 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith

Before I look your post over, is there anything new in there or just the same arguments you've reworded or altered slightly?

All you have asked me is questions. I have answered every single one of them.

Look, it is not my fault if you are being deliberately obtuse.

Your question:"Is the planet sentient"?

I have given evidence for that. The perspective of two people directly entangled in the situation, along with a crap ton of other stuff which would be shown only by sentient beings, like specific technology specifically attacking him, or the temple feeling "revolted by his presence" or anything else.

Your question:"Was the planet directing planetary levels of energy"?

I have given evidence for that too. Whether it is outright stated that the "planet" was trying to kill him, or that he was being assaulted by power equivalent to an "army of Sith"( which would be somewhat roughly equal to a planetary "nexus" of energy).

If you have to bring in "Sith spirits" which have absolutely no relation to this story from nowhere and continue to oppose quotes which I have given by finding some random argument or other to try, or just stating "I don't want to accept this" despite the fact that it is outright stated and has quotes complementing it, there isn't much I can do to convince you.

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#222 Edited by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight: So you did respond to my requests for quotes proving your claims? Fair enough. I'll look it over this weekend since I'll be starting my school semester tomorrow.

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#223 Posted by nerfherder97 (84 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

they're not really the same tho

game starkiller was a gary stu that steamrolled everything that came across his path with zero effort

novel starkiller was an actually character that was fighting for his life and struggling greatly, hell in the vader duel, while he technically won, he was fighting for his life, while game starkiller just smacked vader around

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#224 Posted by kbroskywalker (12446 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith said:
@kbroskywalker said:

@ordeith: dude the quote says he's become much more formidable overall, it applies to both his dueling and force ablities

It states Vader improved in Force mastery and his skill with the blade and that he became more formidable overall. Not that he grew in power. Though I don't doubt that he did as there are quotes stating such.

greater force mastery=greater power

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#225 Posted by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio
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#226 Posted by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

they're not really the same tho

game starkiller was a gary stu that steamrolled everything that came across his path with zero effort

novel starkiller was an actually character that was fighting for his life and struggling greatly, hell in the vader duel, while he technically won, he was fighting for his life, while game starkiller just smacked vader around

Only one feat I've used came from the game. Everything else ( particularly, everything for Galen Marek ) has come from the novel.

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#227 Posted by nerfherder97 (84 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

fair enough

but I don't really consider them the same

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#228 Posted by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerfherder97: Starkiller is basically a more powerful/more unstable version of Galen.

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#229 Posted by nerfherder97 (84 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

I mean I don't consider game starkiller and novel starkiller to be the same, power wise

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#230 Posted by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio
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#231 Edited by nerfherder97 (84 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

..... and nothing apparently XD

I thought you were implying they were the same so I voiced my difference in opinion

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#232 Posted by Killerwasp (15681 posts) - - Show Bio

@thesithmaster: It won't, because people wank SK like it's no tomorrow.

Legends Mace stomps

Canon Idk haven't followed mace enough

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#233 Edited by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio
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#234 Posted by nerfherder97 (84 posts) - - Show Bio

@killerwasp:

no he doesn't

I agree that he wins but he does not stomp

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#235 Posted by nerfherder97 (84 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

I respectfully disagree

I see a CLEAR difference in power between the two

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#236 Edited by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerfherder97: I never said there wasn't. I'm simply noting that in vs threads we take a character's composite showings as their overall capabilities. That's just how it works.

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#237 Posted by nerfherder97 (84 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

I don't think that's entirely fair though

to take multiple incarnations of a character and mishmash their feats, when they should be considered {IMO at least} two separate entities

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#239 Posted by nerfherder97 (84 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

if they don't wanna "play ball" that's their problem, not yours

correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that the whole point of the force unleashed games is to just be an overpowered gary stu and casually stomp everything that is stupid or unlucky enough to cross your path

novel starkiller, actually struggled in his duels, and nearly lost in some

so they contradict each other

one is a fairly interesting character

one is diet kratos

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#240 Edited by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerfherder97: It's not though because technically all those versions are equally canon ( at least in old continuity, now they're equally non canon ) meaning they're equally valid occurrences.

The point was to sell a lot of copies of the game.

Yes. Though a lot of circumstances were involved in all of his fights.

How so? The cutscenes didn't show anything but the end of the fights and gameplay difficulty is decided by the difficulty setting you put it on and the perspective of the player.

Unfortunately, people don't care whether or not the character is interesting in one medium or another when assessing feats.

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#241 Posted by nerfherder97 (84 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

oooooh do you don't consider GAMEPLAY as feats, only cutscenes, during which he did struggle

... that makes more sense

in which case I have nothing else to add to this conversation

this is a little off topic... but what if the younglings killed anakin :^)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK_3vJFJoLA

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#242 Posted by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerfherder97: Sidious would likely have heart palpitations and due to his old age pass out from shock. Yoda finding his unconscious body kills the Dark Lord. The Empire is never formed and the Republic is likely reformed under senators like Padme and Bail Organa.

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#243 Edited by nerfherder97 (84 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

palpatine palpatations :^)

anakin was lucky that the sun was in sors bandeam's eyes, otherwise he'd have wrecked anakin's shit

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#244 Posted by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio
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#245 Posted by Killerwasp (15681 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith: how do you think Mace is going to lose? lol

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#246 Edited by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio

@killerwasp: Via being outpaced against an opponent with solidly superior augmentation and having his Force defenses worn down by an opponent with largely superior power in the Force as happened to Vader.

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#247 Posted by GoodMeme (206 posts) - - Show Bio

If Mace can get up close, he would probably be able to finish Starkiller. But honestly, Starkiller won't let that happen. I mean he is stupid powerful. He did his whole force repulse thing and literally incinerated everyone that was close to him, granted that was a cinematic but still. If Starkiller keeps this a Force battle, he wins easily. If Mace gets up close Mace could win. Could go either way.

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#248 Posted by nerfherder97 (84 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

eh, it COULD happen, but honestly, I see mace closing the distance and ending it

I feel he is the superior duelist

but that's just my opinion.

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#249 Edited by ordeith (1441 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerfherder97: Vader couldn't. And honestly, I don't hold Mace above Vader.

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#250 Posted by nerfherder97 (84 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

well, I, {and many others apparently} feel that mace is indeed, vader's superior. And I feel that mace's physical force augmentation is superior to vaders as well.

make no mistake, you proved very clearly, that this is no stomp, and this fight is very capable of swinging into starkiller's favor

you also clearly demonstrated that starkiller is mace's superior force wise

but I feel that skill with the blade matters more than skill with the force in an all out duel, and I feel, with confidence, that mace> starkiler in terms of sworsmanship

I give it to mace 5.5./10 because if mace screws up, starkiller will ragdoll him, but I see mace's skill and experience winning him a small majority

alright, go ahead. you can make a complete fool out of me now, I know you're going to