Starkiller vs Mace Windu

@ordeith:

ahem, SECOND, most powerful

the most powerful force in star wars is sand

@ordeith Go easy on the other guy. He is obviously new around here.

I'm sorry, but where does Obi Wan hold back "planetary level concentrations of dark side power?"

That is from Clone Wars: Wild Space.

The planet initially tries to kill him by first causing him headaches from light years away, then as he approached the planet, it actually warped his brain and tried to make him a murderer. It even tried to kill him by causing him actual physical injuries like bleeding.

He repels all of these attacks with force light, the Jedi antithesis to Sith sorcery( obviously the attacks are typical sorcery/magic attacks like the ones pulled off by Sith sorcerors). The planet then cuts to the chase, and directly tries to kill him in the force. Using all of his power, he pushes it down.

It has been confirmed and stated outright that the entire planet was trying to kill him in the force. When he pushes these attacks down, he is dealing with the force of an entire DS Nexus. The context is that this is a Banite nexus. In this story, it is a trap laid by Sidious to kill Obi Wan and Bail Organa. In fact, Sidious is so confident that the nexus will kill him, he thinks that he "hardly needs to lift a finger" in order to do it( he manipulates them into getting there, that's it).

When he later sees them alive, he "suffers an actual physical shock", since he is convinced that they cannot survive there. He is also in shock that the Sith temple is destroyed.

After this incident, Obi Wan's connection to the force grows vastly over the space of a few weeks/months. By his own admission.

The full feat isn't nearly as expanded in his RT.

I'm sorry, but where does Obi Wan hold back "planetary level concentrations of dark side power?" Also, the quotes you're referencing for the towers being "mountain sized" seem to be hyperbole from what I know of the feat as previous estimates had put them at around 500 meters. Regardless, if we're going to accept clear hyperbole as fact then I guess Kanan has held up "a mountain" in canon.

This is not a quote that I posted anywhere apart from PM's. It directly compares, from the perspective of a person, the Pillars to mountains in height, and states that they literally "climbed" to the sky.

Another quote says that they rose high enough to blot out the midday suns. You know, when the sun is directly overhead.

And obviously, comparison to mountains is meant to demonstrate awe at the sheer height of the towers. What else do you expect?

The 500 m thing, is debatable because the interpretation of it could just as well be a grammatical mistake.

And precisely. People like Maul have never shown such feats but Maul has casually ragdolled Inquisitors who have not only done the same thing, they have beaten the Jedi duo several times. So are we supposed to believe that Rebels Maul, or Ben who has beaten him, can't do such a thing?

Again, I'm sorry, but Mace having accolades that say "he's just that good" isn't a valid argument to place him above someone like Galen or Starkiller in the Force. :/

Put it this way, he destroyed a section of an entire forest of such towers.

From the destruction rose a cloud of dust, that, when observed from a large distance away, was described as a "monstrous" cloud of dust.

Making it even better, the person in question observed them from over the remaining forest of towers. Which means that she saw a monstrous cloud of dust rising above towers that are already mountain sized.

Another person who saw this, inquired as to whether an avalanche had caused such damage.

I'd say, tearing mountain tall towers into chunks, and striking these chunks all around, such that a monstrous cloud of dust from the destruction is visible over another section of the stone forest towers, and the damage output from such an act being compared to an avalanche, is certainly comparable to what Starkiller has pulled off.

Anyways, if you want to discuss the feats in detail, go to a PM as this is somewhat off topic( though it obviously helps Mace).

Also for the Shaak Ti thing, it was Shaak Ti who was doing the stifling of the dark side. Obviously, a significant chunk of her powers would be devoted to it.

@lordofthelight:

thanks for sticking up for me, I AM new here

@ordeith: Windu and Starkiller are already comparable in force power, but Windu is a lot better in dueling.

@nerfherder97

No problem. Just don't take this whole stuff seriously.

Posting opinions is fine and you can do it casually, but if you do want to debate, make sure you've got the information.

@lordofthelight:

I THOUGHT I did, but apparently not

so I'll just let you guys have at it

@ordeith: I did not say equal, I said comparable.

And just watch Star Wars Clone Wars from 2003 and you'll know.

@ordeith: the implication the towers have height comparable to a mountain comes from "mountain winds whilistling" between them(meaning the altitude was high enough that you'd get wind similar to that goes by a mountain)which along with all the other stuff should hit the point across, I'll attempt to quote you it from my phone but I'm sure gre or Lotl can do it. Regardless that's not as impressive as star killer' feat as Kenobi did it chunk by chunk.

@lordofthelight, just use the mountain winds quote, the others prove little on their own

I'm inclined to give this one to Windu in a tremendous fight, with Starkiller having a Force edge and Windu having a dueling edge. However Windu's ability to defend himself with the force enough to win a duel comes from his own feats and accolades, rather than scaling from an overly hyped up version of Obi-Wan whose supposedly planetary level.

This would be a close fight for sure. I don't, however, believe that Mace is weak enough to be simply ragdolled by Galen. He'd definitely be able to close the distance fast enough to put an end to this.

Starkiller in one ending he outright kills vader and going on from the Darkside end he recks ben kenobi and Luke iirc in the first force unleashed.

My vote goes to Starkiller.

from what I've gathered and researched

starkiller is the superior force user

mace, however, is the superior duelist, and that, IMO counts for more

so after some thought, my vote still goes to mace

after one hell of a fight from starkiller though

but I'm not THAT educated on starkiller's feats, so take what I say with a grain of salt

lordofthelight and ordieth know what they're talking about better than I

@sainguinexshadow:

I'm not THAT knowledgable about starkiller's history, but I'm PRETTY sure those duels are either with the much weaker PROXY, or are just fanmade mods that never actually happened

@nerfherder97: the vids are from the add on content to force unleashed 1.

@sainguinexshadow:

ah, I see

well I'm still pretty sure they didn't actually HAPPEN in legends so....

@nerfherder97: well canon wise to unleashed Galen died so they cloned him meaning he was canonly the light side meaning he somewhat matched Sidious in the force for abit before dying.

@sainguinexshadow:

this is true

though I still see mace's skill giving him the leg up he needs

doesn't really matter

sors bandeam wreks em both

Ok I haven,t read all the posts. But when Galen Marek/ Starkiller fought Shak ti, it was at the beginning of the game or well near beginning he became significantly more powerful later on. Also Starkiller fighting styles is a mixture as Vader made proxy fight him with different avaters(Obi-wan, Anakin for example). To make him develop his own fighting style. He is extremely skilled and knows how to use Niman a form which uses the force during combat( and he has shown using the force during fights.)

Should be noted that Vaapad would not be as effective on Starkiller as on Palpatine even though Palptine is a much better duelist. The thing is Vapad takes the darkside energy of Palpatine and was a great amp to Mace. Thing is Starkiller is not that deep in the darkside like Palpatine was and he uses lightside powers as well.

So the amp Mace would receive from Vaapad would not be that much.

Starkiller has the force edge

Mace has never shown using Shatterpoint in combat, in a lightsaber duel to my knowledge.

Starkiller lightsaber abilities alone would not give him the win over Vader someone who I think is above Mace in terms of dueling abilities without Vaapad amp when fighting people deeply submerged in the darkside. This is because Anakin defeated Dooku. And later on Vader became a much better duelist than Anakin by taking techniques from all 7 forms of lightsaber combat and using form 5 as a solid base.

So Starkiller wouldn,t be able to defeat top tiers with his lightsaber abilities however with his force abilities and lightsaber abilities he could as he did defeat Vader twice someone who,s dueling skills is superior to Mace.

Note: Sorry for the spelling mistakes made this in a hurry.

@ordeith

None of the things you mentioned for Obi Wan's "planetary" feat are any different then what a lightsider would experience approaching or on a normal DS nexus other then the the "planet directly try to kill and injure him" bit. For that, I'm going to need some context ( I.E. a quote ) to assess the validity of your claim.

I already told you the context: Sidious manipulated them into getting there, and was completely sure that the planet would kill them.

Equally important, the dark side had shown him how to rid himself of Kenobi and that stalwart fool, Organa. A nudge here. A string pulled there. Pathetic friendships, so easily exploited. Trust and loyalty, the currency of weaklings. And best of all, the instrument of their destruction already existed. He hardly needed to lift a finger. An ancient planet, hidden and safeguarded by the Sith for centuries. A sarlacc of space, hungry for Jedi prey.

Credit: Wild Space

It is also stated that the planet was trying to kill him, outright:

The world outside, the world beyond his inner world, involved walking beneath an inimical sun, upon the skin of a planet that was trying to kill him, toward the stronghold of an enemy bent upon his destruction. It involved a good man, Bail Organa, who should not have been by his side. Involved insufficient nourishment, fractured sleep, and a litany of physical ills that made the physical world a trial.

Credit: Wild Space

As I already said, Sidious is so sure that they will die that:

When Palpatine saw Bail Organa in the noisy Senate cafeteria, deep in lunchtime conversation with Padm? and that inept Gungan bumbler Jar Jar Binks, he suffered an actual, physical shock.

Organa was alive? He was here? On Coruscant? But that must mean Kenobi was alive, too. Because if he was dead, with Organa surviving to tell the tale, the Jedi would have mentioned it. If Kenobi was dead, neither Padm? nor Organa would be laughing so delightfully together.

Credit: Wild Space

Sidious is also in shock that the temple and it's Sith treasures are destroyed.

As for the tower feat, there are many sentences in novels that say a construct "climb into the sky" they are not literally climbing through the air of course, it's just a figure of speech to indicate that something is very tall. The same applies to comparing something to a mountain. Kanan compares the weight he held in "A New Dawn" to a mountain but wasn't literally holding up a mountain or the weight of one, just as these towers likely weren't literally as tall as a mountain, they only seemed to be from the perspective of the character. The towers being able to obscure the midday sun also doesn't give us much to go on when assessing their height as their ability to do this is dependent on the distance between the character observing the midday suns and the towers themselves.

There is no need to look at this like a scientist examines work under a microscope, lol.

The phrase "climb to the sky" denotes a skyscraper. Of course it means that the towers are extremely tall.

The simple fact of the matter is that heavy figures of speech are made in their favor and say that the towers are extraordinarily tall. Direct comparisons have been made between the height of the towers to mountains.

Estimatedly, there is 5-10 m distance between any two pillars from instances later in the novel.

Again, there is the simple fact that medium height towers simply do not blot out the midday suns. The narrator is glorifying the "height" of the towers, by saying that they hide suns which are directly overhead. Bringing geometry into this serves zero purpose because they aren't giving exact dimensions with perfectly accurate figures here. All of these quotes are only meant to signify that the towers are indeed mountain level in height. By the use of adjectives and metaphors, which are blatant enough.

From what I know of the feat, Obi Wan did not directly destroy those towers. Rather, he tore chunks off of them at varying points and cracked their foundations.

No, that was a wrong interpretation of the feat. He did indeed destroy those towers, because he cracked them by causing fissures in them, and then sent chunks of those towers flying "all around". And judging by the tremendous destruction, obviously he destroyed the towers.

Also, IIRC, another character noted that the cloud of dust might have been formed from a bantha stampede. An event of significantly less destruction then an avalanche.

No, it was specifically stated that "Ben raised the monstrous cloud of dust" and the Bantha stampede was hours( or similar) before the incident.

Ben cracking the towers was "compared" by another character to a Bantha stampede groundquake, which took place previously. Obviously the guy did not know that Ben was a Jedi.

Shaak would not need to devote her power because, per the text, she had already shifted the balance of the Force on Felucia in favor of that of the Lightside. Unless there's something I'm missing, there's no reason to assume she devoted energy to further stifling the Darkside when that would have already been the case on a Light aligned planet.

No, because it was stated that the dark side would again regain control after Shaak's fall. So she was keeping the dark side stifled on her own account.

@kbroskywalker

the implication the towers have height comparable to a mountain comes from "mountain winds whilistling" between them(meaning the altitude was high enough that you'd get wind similar to that goes by a mountain)which along with all the other stuff should hit the point across, I'll attempt to quote you it from my phone but I'm sure gre or Lotl can do it. Regardless that's not as impressive as star killer' feat as Kenobi did it chunk by chunk.

That's not the only quote. I told you, legends had the stone towers being formed when a had struck the mountains in between, with a dagger. Another legend claimed that the towers were the "younger" sun flailing against his brother.

Now the latter is hyperbole( which any idiot can realize), but it obviously implies a literally insane amount of height.

For the former, obviously, when you strike a mountain from the top, holes will be formed. The remaining parts will be towers, as tall as the mountain, but pretty thin. Thus, at least, 1 quote properly says that the towers were tall enough, comparable to mountains.

And I already said, he didn't do it chunk by chunk. Didn't I say that at the next moment, "chunks were flying all around"? That in of itself, nullifies this statement completely. I have already discussed that he cracks in all the towers occurred simultaneously, the cracks were widening simultaneously, and then, chunks were striking all around simultaneously.

And do use your common sense. There is no way that he would have been able to create a dust cloud, let alone a "monstrous cloud" that would be visible over another section of mountain tall towers if that was the case. If he did it chunk by chunk, the dust would dissipate way too quickly.

@ordeith: Remember when Mace casually took out armies of droids with TK, jumped several hundred feat onto a ship, blew it up, then jumped even farther to a hill? Starkiller's lightning is the reason I have said Mace solidly wins in the Force.

to both ordeith and lord of the light, this discussion has been very enlightening, I learned more about both mace and starkiller

so thank you both

@ordeith: Let's begin with this: any feat from TFU is highly overpowered. This was stated by the creators themselves. And no, I was referring to when his entire army of clones died and he casually soloed an army of superb battle droids. And yes, he didn't blow up the ship with the Force.

Now the ship feat: what Starkiller is "blowing up" is glass, and he's detonating fusion cores, which cause the ship to blow up. And the fact that the star destroyer was split is because of the canon's power, not Starkiller's. And I kinda just explained Windu's Force repulse anyway.

Starkiller and Windu are about even in the force and windu has the edge when it comes to lightsaber combat. After a legendary battle windu takes this.

@ordeith:

yeah I don't get it either

@ordeith:

ships made of glass confirmed :^)

@ordeith:

that is... actually pretty cool

@ordeith:

There's nothing that puts the towers at 500 m, just a misinterpreted statement that refers to the formation, not the pillars. That being said aren't most mountains>500m?

Anyway ordeith, I think necro was trying to point out the ship isn't somewhat hollow with his glass statement ignoring that ships have tons of shite inside of them

@lordofthelight:

none of the quotes say anything about how the mountain was cut, that's at best a loose assumption. There's no need to post those when we have rather unarguable confirmation with the mountain winds quotes.

I misspoke, I should have said he did the feat itself bit by bit rather than in one stroke as killer did, but yes, he didn't do it one by one which makes the feat pretty damn impressive, not starkiller lvl though.

@ordeith:

The banthaquake comparison proves the opposite of what you're saying. Kenobi had just started cracking the towers when Orrin thought that and then when he saw what was going on and Kenobi wasn't even done with the cracking he realized there's no way that could be a Bantha quake.

And that was before Kenobi brought the chunks down simultaneously anyway.

In other words even a portion of one of the things Kenobi did was indicated to be at least >> a banthaquake

@ordeith:

The feat isn't at alll on par with what starkiller did for sure.

Well given the smallest mountains are 300m I think we should assume it's at least as tall, what are the tallest mountains? IIRC Mount Everest is like a mile plus

Anyway, we can't diminish Kenobi's showing based on second guessing of authorial intent. Unless there were mountains nearby there's only one way mountains winds would be whistling there.

@greysetinel were there mountains nearby!