Starkiller vs Luke Skywalker (DE)

Like wins

Pretty sure this is the Clone.

Anyways, DE Luke takes it.

DE Luke, good fight.

@richard96: But how can DE Luke win? He was implied to be still sub-Vader, and Starkiller clone beat him.

He isn't sub-Vader, at all. RotJ Luke is already an equal to Vader and DE Luke is well above that.

Jabba's Guard > Vader

@richard96: ROTJ Luke was an “equal” of Vader under some heavy emotional circumstances.

Yes, Luke was very conflicted about fighting his father who was willing to and even tried to kill him multiple times in that duel. Makes it all the better.

In a normal state, he had trouble against Jabba’s guard and he would have died to 5 of them if not for good luck.

What? He's one-shotted Jabba's guards, and honestly that's a low showing given even ESB Luke can plow through dozens of Stormtroopers like a champ.

In DE, palpatine says Luke he wasn’t as strong as his father yet. It is not an omniscient narrator statement, but it is still an indication.

Sidious never said that.

@richard96: I am too lazy to argue this. I give you the link to this thread which explains in full detail why ROTJ Luke is not an equal of ROTJ Vader.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/luke-skywalker-vs-darth-vader-context-and-circumst-1800921/

That's been debunked. A blog isn't proof; there's a lot more proof for Luke being >/= Vader and Luke being the conflicted one in that fight, than the reverse. Yet people make excuses because "B-but, muh worldview!" Run down the facts:

• Numerous sources state Luke and Vader are equals, some even noting Luke is better
• Numerous sources emphasize more Luke's own emotional turmoil than Vaders; Vader's major conflict only comes at the end
• Numerous sources state Vader fears Luke's power and have Vader admitting he could kill him
• Numerous sources note Vader attacked Luke with his full fury and power
• Numerous sources have Vader trying to even kill Luke... Twice

Canon seems to be tilted more towards Vader being superior to Luke, than the reverse, but the EU still holds the son above the father and there's absolutely no way around that.

He one-shotted some of them, and had trouble with others. Look at 2.12:

Luke gets wounded by one (1!!) guard. Now the novel (i am sorry i did not find the text in English, so i had to translate from another version):

A group of guards arrived suddenly from below deck, shooting. One blaster bolt ripped the lightsaber from Luke's hand, who began to run but got surrounded. [...] The explosion shaked the huge sailor, distracting momentaneously the five guards who were surrouding Luke. In that instant he extended his hand and the lightsaber, which laid on the deck three meters from there, flied through his fingers.

Luke got disarmed by five (5!!) guards and managed to survive thanks to a distraction of them.

That's a low showing; same as Dooku losing to pirates, Vader tripping over his own severed arm, Zannah tripping over a grave, Anakin being stalemated by Hondo and Maul getting tackled by a dog. Even ESB Luke has stomped battallion of Stormtroopers, so either Jabba's guards are really good or it's a low showing.

Sure? In de Sidious says to Luke that if he joins him, he can be stronger than Vader was, which means that Vader is either equal or superior to DE Luke. DE Luke is more powerful than ROTJ Luke as well. Here's a quote from Palpatine.

Your first scan has Palpatine stating Luke can be far stronger; that doesn't mean he isn't already stronger, just that the gap isn't vast. Your second quote referring to "greater" than mean a lot of things, as "great" is a blanket statement, and it's referring to skill in the Dark Side specifically. I do agree Vader has more control over the Dark Side, cuz Luke's a Light-Sider and all. But if you wanna use greatness, and it's blanket statements, Luke is Sidious' greatest adversary by Dark Empire:

Filled with Dark Side power, the reborn Emperor engages Luke in a ferocious lightsaber duel -– and wins. Triumphant over his greatest adversary, the young Emperor vows to find Leia –- and the holocron –- and crush the Rebellion once and for all!

Dark Empire #6

This would put DE Luke above Galen, Yoda and, yes, even Vader. And your argument stands on faulty legs to begin with since you'd need to quantify how Starkiller compares to RotJ Vader. Him being equal/superior to TFUII Vader isn't gonna be enough.

i don't see how Luke loses this. He should win every time

Skywalker.

I'll respond later.

@wollfmyth209: Vader tripping over his own severed arm

Honestly not sure.

Either way imo with maybe a slight edge to Galen.

@richard96: The sources do not state they are outright equals. Let's see:

Luke was an EQUAL MATCH for his father. This does not mean he's his equal on even ground, precisely cause all the bunch of circumstances behind the fight.

Equal match means they're equals. And you might've been on to something, had the quote not given a reason for why it was an equal match; The reason is Luke grew in power. Fact File didn't seem to mention any of Vader's emotional hinderences, but they did mention Luke's power-growth, and attributed the "equal match" to that. The context of the quote is clear: Luke grew in power and became Vader's equal.

Also, the notion they are equals is disproved by the horrible low showing luke has with jabba's guards.

And the notion that Vader is equal to Luke is disproved because at least Luke never tripped on his own severed arm, whereas Vader did. And Luke also never got intimidated by a bunch of villagers with pitchforks and torches, but Vader did. A low showing is inconsistent and thus ruled out.

Also, there is luke's stompage at gethzerion hands that is argued below.

Oh, I'll get to that later.

Same as above. It was a BATTLE of equals thanks to the circumstances.

Again, based on what? This once again compares RotJ Luke to ESB Luke, hence it attributes it being a battle of equals to Luke's power-growth. The sources give us reasons for why it's a battle of equals: Luke grew in power. It mentions that context, but it mentions none of Vader's "emotional hinderences". You can't just slap on something to a quote just cuz you feel like it. Besides, those aren't the only two quotes:

Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength.

Beware the Sith

Father and son were now equally strong with the Force and equally skilled with their lightsabers.

Jedi Battles

The RotJ comic even notes Vader's fighting with all his power and strength and Luke is still winning:

Also, palpatine says that as of ROTJ luke COULD become more powerful than vader only via dark side:

This means that ROTJ light side luke is still sub vader.

That doesn't mean "only", lol. Sidious saw Luke will become more powerful than Vader, yes, but that doesn't mean Luke isn't as powerful as Vader at the time of the fight. Just because you aren't more powerful than someone by a drastic margin doesn't mean you're automatically below them. That's a forced dichotomy.

You mean the rage amp that boosted luke against an overconfident vader? The same luke who, when calmed down for a moment, got driven back quickly? In the moments when luke is conflicted or he is getting driven back or he is hiding from Vader.

Luke had no rage amp when he drove Vader back in their initial exchange, nor in their later stalemate. He only had a rage amp when he sliced off Vader's arm, and at that point Skywalker stomped his father in a few moves.

The only moment when this is suggested is this:

But there are a lot of other sources that disproves this idea, ot at least prove that Vader just considered this idea and never really tried to do so:

Vader tried to slice his head off twice. Once when he attacked him while his guard was down, and later again with a saber-throw. One of your sources isn't even part of the EU, lol. But even if it were, it's referring to Vader betraying Sidious, not his duel with Luke.

Damn, even luke had understood that:

Luke lowballs himself all the time. He thought trainee Kyp was his superior. :/

Also, it was noted that Luke would have been stomped by a serious Vader:

Vader is much stronger than Gethzerion, who wrecked a stronger luke than the ROTJ version.

Based on what is Vader "much stronger" than Gethzerion, who even Sidious feared? Regardless, Geth cheapshotted Luke with an archaic spell that targeted his brain, on a Dark Side Nexus. That instance had serious circumstances to it, which you conveniently neglect to mention, while you tout around poor Vader's boo-boo.

The difference is that this "low showing" is corroborated by both the two leading sources about ROTJ, so it's clear that Luke was intended to have trouble against Jabba. Also, there are no plot needs or circumstances behind that like with Dooku against the pirates or anakin vs hondo.

And Vader tripping over his own severed arm happened in three different sources. And Anakin vs Hondo, or Maul getting tackled by a dog had literally nothing to add to any plot lmfao. Again, it's an inconsistent low-showing, given even ESB Luke has stomped battalions of Stormtroopers.

There's also an insane double standard; There's at least six sources that say Luke and Vader are equals , but that's not legit. Luke having "trouble" with Jabba's guards in two is enough to dismiss him entirely? LMFAO

Yeah, but the second statement says also: You can be like him... This means he is not still like vader. It would be strange to say that if luke would be already at vader's force level, even if with the light side. Palpatine would have said: "with the dark side you can become stronger than him". I am not arguing that DE luke is miles below vader. But if palpatine say so, it means Luke has still to learn to arrive at vader's level, cause he is not like him nor far stronger than him.

Be like him, as in be an enforcer of Sidious. Besides, Sidious is trying to convert him, so how trustworthy his statements are is absolutely questionable in the first place.

Luke is clearly Sidious' greatest adversary cause he really defeated him, but he did not do it thanks to his power. This is a completely different context than that of palpatine claims we are discussing.

That statement was made before Luke defeated Sidious. It actually happened right after Sidious' and Luke's first duel where Sidious won. So an omniscient narrator places Luke above all of Sidious' past enemies, like Vader. GG WP.

Damn.

Wollf ragdolling.

Luke wins.

Luke in a good fight.

Is every SW debate gonna have to bring up TCW in some capacity when it's the previous Canon being argued? It's not previous C-canon, it doesn't have to follow what was previous established and it's clearly not doing so. It's its own separate bracket of Canon, then later it was pulled into Disney...so it's not apart of the rest of the previous Canon that was established because GL didn't follow all that noise, just his movies.

Also as per Luke and the Jabba's pirates thing....yeah you know he was trying to tell Leia what to do right? Distracted right, otherwise as shown in the movie he was easily handling the pirates. Another thing is, reading the ROTJ novel now, in at no point is he in fear of getting killed. All he does is look at his mechanical hand, flex it and it was still working. Otherwise we have no real clue what would have happened, he gets his lightsaber after they are distracted by Leia and easily kills the guards.

Woolf doing some serious Star Wars debating is kind of like Yoda entering the room after the Dooku v Duo fight.

And yeah, using Luke's opinion of how Gethzerion's attack was like what Vader could have done seems about as reliable as him thinking Old Ben could have ragdolled Vader and the stormtroopers, or ESB Yoda being able to solo the Emperor.

@amethystgravity: Woolf doing some serious Star Wars debating is kind of like Yoda entering the room after the Dooku v Duo fight.

Stick around, hon. This is gonna get interesting.

@richard96: He can have grown in power, this doesn’t mean it was the only reason why he was an equal match for Vader. The fact files are short, they can’t include every aspect of the issue or mention every circumstance.

And yet, they specifically chose to mention Luke's power-growth as a reason... Wanna know why? Because that's the most major circumstance to the fight. Luke improved, and became equal to Vader. If the major reason for the fight being that of equals was Vader's hinderence, the Fact File would say something along the lines of: Luke had indeed grown powerful since Bespin, and with Vader's emotional distress and he was an equal match for his father. But it doesn't say that, instead it says:Luke had indeed grown powerful since Bespin, and he was an equal match for his father.

So clearly, Luke's power-growth is far more significant than Vader's emotional distress. Probably because that emotional distress didn't exist for most of the duel. :)

I wonder why you conveniently forgot to mention that Vader was badly injured and deeply exhausted.

You know who injured and exhausted him? Luke! In Splinter In the Mind's Eye had Luke and Vader clash, and Vader admitted Luke was a challenge and exhausted him. This is pre-ESB Luke, forcing Darth Vader back, and countering his assault:

"Not strong enough, Vader," Luke insisted as he lunged forward. His thoughts were of Kenobi, of the techniques of saber and Force the old Jedi knight had laboriously taught him. He tried to let the Force guide his arm.

Vader parried, blocked, parried again, and found himself being forced backward by the aggressiveness and skill of Luke's demonic attack. The breath mask tilted back for a second. A section of heavy bas-relief on one of the supporting pillars was loosened, fell away.

At the last instant Luke sensed it, jumped backward. The huge carved panel shattered between them. Both men rested uneasily as the dust settled. Luke gulped for air, while Vader showed less aplomb and increasing tension.

"You are good, Skywalker," he declared. "Very good indeed, for a child. But the end will be the same." He raised his saber and came charging over the broken panel.

Now it was the Dark Lord who initiated the assault. Luke found himself forced steadily backward as Vader threw an unceasing blizzard of stone shards and saber cuts at him. It was impossible to counter them all.

Somehow Luke did so.

They were circling in the center of the temple floor now. Lying on her side, the Princess tried to turn and watch. The pain of her wounds rose about her like a steel wall. Around her thoughts the wall closed, and in response her eyes closed and she slumped back to the cold, cold stone.

Again the two enemies paused, only now it was Vader who was panting heavily. "Kenobi trained you well," the Dark Lord admitted admiringly. Some of his usual insouciance had been drained by the steady fighting. "And you have some natural ability of your own. You have proven a challenge. I enjoy a challenge."

Splinter In The Mind's Eye

Yes, Vader did win, but this was a barely trained Luke, instinctively drawing on his emotions and the Force, and he was capable of exhausting and injuring Vader. You've literally shot yourself in the foot now. If Pre-ESB Luke can impress Vader, and ESB Luke can challenge him, why would RotJ Luke not be his equal?

Source?

Vader's Quest.

Based on the bunch of circumstances affecting the fight,

Circumstances so important that Fact Files going in-depth about the duel, Luke's power-growth, and the general father-son relationship decided to omit them entirely? Yes, very important circumstances indeed.

like luke’s rage amp,

Which only came at the end.

luke’s adapting to vader’s fighting style,

Luke is an adaptable fighter... Good for him.

vader’s conflict in fighting his son.

Yes, the Dark Lord Vader who tried to murder his son twice in just that duel(and at least once prior) is very conflicted. Meanwhile the light sider Jedi who constantly holds himself back because of his morals is obviously not conflicted at all about fighting his father... Your double standards are hilarious. Not that I subscribe to the idea that either Luke or Vader were constantly holding back.

I agree those sources are objective, but there are sources also saying Dooku and Yoda are equals. Yet they are disproved by facts.

Fallacy of composition; Just because a source gets something wrong doesn't mean that source in-of-itself is entirely wrong. Regardless, Dooku was originally meant to be a serious threat to Yoda, but that has changed over time, which makes sense. Luke and Vader's standing next to each other has so far not changed in the EU at all.

Really? Luke was enraged even at the beginning.

No, he felt a rush of power after he kicked Vader down the stairs. Only upon realizing he's now equal/superior to his father does he realize he can kill him, if he wanted to, and he pushes those thoughts away the moment he hears the Emperor. At that point he says "I will not fight you, father." The initial clash, where Luke drove Vader back, was entirely Luke's own skill.

Proves they were meant to be killing blows?

They were literally aimed for Luke's head.

Had the father killed the son... clearly referring to Vader betraying sidious.

Yes, it is. Plus, it's a Canon source(this is an EU thread, friend) and it's Snoke's subjective opinion about a fight he never even saw. You're grasping at straws.

Poor excuse.

Just say you have no proper counter. Makes things easier for both of us.

Sidious feared also guys who are much weaker than him, simply cause there is the chance they betray him. Vader was labeled as the second strongest being in the galaxy, so he is automatically above Gethzerion.

Yeah, but Geth can't betray him, she can usurp him. Hence her power is a legit threat to Sidious, who treats Vader like a child. Also, when was Vader labled the second strongest being of the galaxy? And would that even apply to Gethzerion who was amped by Dathomir's nexus -- where the Nightsisters are canonically at the zenith of their power.

The DS nexus at most compensated the fact that 8 ABY Luke is stronger than the ROTJ version.

Great, now take into account Geth hit him with a haxx-ability and that she was amped and you'll see why this argument is manure.

And to hit Luke Gethzerion had to bypass his force defenses.

He was pretty much cheapshotted. What Force defense could he have even thrown up?

Also, what counts is that Luke thinks that would have happened if Vader had gone all out.

Again, Luke is pretty humble to the point of self-deprication. Plus he literally had an aneurism at the time. You really want to take the word of someone who was having the equivalent of a stroke legitimate?

Hondo was a main character and cannot be dismissed so easily. Like Jedi having trouble with bounty hunters when they could stomp them very easily via force.

Hondo is not a main character. He's some random pirate lmfao. It's not like that's the only embarrassing feat under Anakin's belt(he was stalemated by a senator in a wrestling match at one point as well).

Also, source for maul having trouble with a dog?

The glorious land of TCW. Regardless, I think Wolfrazor debunked your Luke vs Jabba's guards argument pretty well.

Jesus Christ. I believed it was obvious I referred to ROTJ, but it seems I had to specify. Luke is sidious’ greatest adversary cause he was the only one who really “defeated” him, in ROTJ, thanks to his love for Vader. If he had killed Vader Sidiosu would have won. This has nothing to do with his power. Yoda is much stronger than ROTJ Luke or DE Luke, yet he clearly isn’t sidious’ greatest adversary, cause he lost to him and failed to prevent him from ruling the galaxy. Luke did.

So much manure, you can fertalize an entire farm with this. Luke didn't do anything in RotJ... He was helpless. It was Vader who killed Sidious in a moment of quasi-Oneness. So why would he garner the title "greatest adversary" based on RotJ where he did nothing? Or maybe that's just because Sidious fought Luke in DE #5, and realized his power and the threat he poses. I mean, fighting off the Emperor on one of the most potent Dark Side nexuses in the galaxy(even if losing) seems like more of an accomplishment than doing nothing a few years prior.

Besides, if we take a feats-on approach, Dark Empire Luke absolutely sh!ts on Starkiller. Your reverse scaling doesn't hold up, I'm afraid.

I don't see why Luke's rage amp is relevant. Vader is always amped by the dark side. If a DS amped Luke is matching and at certain points beating a DS amped Vader, then as far as I'm concerned they're equals.

I also don't see how Luke adapting to Vader's style is any special advantage to him. Vader can't predict the moves and sequences of his own style better than someone who made a facsimile? Seriously? Vader has over 3 decades of experience over Luke and that's his excuse?

Starkiller destroys him.

People really trying to argue a non emotional Vader is inferior to a non emotional Luke?

Lets see, Luke himself stated Vader was conflicted from the get go, before the fight, and Filoni stated Vader was at his best mentally vs Luke before metting Luke. Also stated Vader was a better fighter than he was s Kenobi in ANH and better fighter than he was in ESB by time of RotJ.

But sure lets pretend Luke was Vader's equal in force knowledge or skill. Luke who had very little training.

@tourneymaster: he may have been conflicted then but by the time he brought him to the emperor he was no longer conflicted.

@tourneymaster: Your first image is irrelavant as that's Disney Canon, not the previous one which is being used here.

Luke Skywalker.

Starkiller.

Starkiller defeated vader twice, once while severly hindered (13 days without food)

He wins in a good fight.

ughh luke easily. Far better saber dualist, better physicals excepting durability, and stronger in the force. Starkiller might be more skilled with the force though.

Luke by far, Starkiller is inferior in every aspect and by a decent margin. Anyone who chooses starkiller is flat out a fanboy.

Starkiller was always about quantity over quality. He is good against fodder but who he fought from the Force-sensitive good fighters hm? Pre-ANH Vader and lost. That's it. That's his best feat.

Luke slaughters.

Still Starkiller, my list goes like this.

Knightfall Anakin>Starkiller>Dark Empire Luke=>ROTJ Vader.

Luke by this point should be well beyond his ROTJ self in terms of power

I'd say he takes this with marginal difficulty at best due to SK's telekinesis

Luke.

Luke I think

Luke at this point is above Yoda. He wins easily.

Ummm no, Luke isnt even above Vader as of Dark Empire,Palpatine stated in DE Luke COULD became as strong as his father or maybe even surpass him, implying he was still below him as of early DE. End of DE Luke should be a rough equal of Vader. The guy managed to beat Sidius only thanks to Leia’s help which unlocked his full potential ( PIS at his finest )., Palpatine said that he would eventually surpass vader,

Starkiller defeated a superior version off Vader in TFU2 that was written to have better force feats and saber feats to his ROTJ counterpart, not to mention Starkiller was starved for 13 days as was matching Vader in Sabers and overpowered him in the force.