Starkiller / Pre Vizsla vs Darth Maul / Savage Opress

• Standard Gear
• Team chemistry is factored in
• Pre Vizsla has offered Starkiller the execution of Darth Vader if they win the battle
• Takes place in Mos Eisley

Vizsla is a weak link.

Almost stalemated Maul in the Clone Wars though, should I change him to Cad Bane?

@thanofleeze: Yeah but he got shoryukened by Obi-Wan. I'm still at the beginning of season 4 so idk what else he can do. I just saw a video of him besting Savage so maybe he can stand a chance.

Well, this is an old thread...

Take out vizla he's a weak link and him "stalemating" Maul was the highest showing his character ever had.

Galen gets dogpiled.

Frigate shattering force power

Maul and Savage

The Clone's force abilities are too much of an obstacle to be overcome by the brothers

Maul did not use any of his force powers against Pre Vizla, otherwise it would have been a stomp in Maul's favour.

Anyways, Maul and Savage win.

Pre Vizsla gets Force Choked and thrashed around and killed by Maul or Savage (I wanna say Savage.) Marek himself would have trouble dueling Savage, with Maul it's a stomp.

Team 2 Vizsla is weak link by a noticeable margin.

Starkiller solos.

@rrabbit: Where? That's contradicted by Shadow Conspiracy.

If it's the Filoni BTS he's referring to "act" as in a 3 act structure. Vizsla gets the entire third act of the episode devoted to his fight.

Maul was going full in on Vizla. It sucks but that's what we've been given.

As for the match Vizsla can likely outmanoeuvre Savage or blindside him with his gear. Bare minimum he can distract him while SK fights Maul.

If Vizla fights Maul he can hold out for a good while as we know. However whether that's long enough for SK dispatch Savage with his superior power and skill is anyone's guess.

Whatever happens to Savage, I don't think Maul is dying here. Savage is probably going to make it, too.

@rrabbit:

Filoni Stated " This sword fight, That's a whole act practically. To do it right, to make it exciting that's a whole act." That's why when maul got his Saber shot out his hand. He prepared to physically engage pre with hand to hand if you watched the fight.

Shadow Conspiracy confirms Maul is using pre-cognition and his deflection of blaster-fire confirms he's using physical augmentation as does SC itself.

Vizsla was an excellent duelist - strong, graceful, and able to sense what an opponent's smallest movement indicated would happen next. But for all that, Vizsla could not sense the Force. He would never be able to see things before they happened, or command the laws of the universe to empower and bend for him.

Star Wars The Clone Wars: Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy

Filoni is referring to the last "act" of the episode int terms of a three act dramatic structure.

Maul was going all out.

@greysentinel365: It seemed Maul was avoiding using telekinesis for attack though. Or at the very least we never see him attempt any.

@alextheboss: We don't know. But Vizsla was a legitimate challenge in sabers + his gear. There's a very real chance that Savage could get outflanked or blindsided by any of them.

The point is Vizsla is not fodder here and he may very well tip the scales for his team.

Depends on how seriously you take Viszla's performance against Maul. In the force, Savage is basically fodder for Starkiller, so if he gets removed quickly then Maul is definitely going down.

If we take combatants as they should logically be fighting then, both Savage and Viszla get removed immediately, which then turns into Starkiller vs Maul which the former wins in a great fight.

Visla was fortunate to still be alive against TCW Ahsoka, and got absolutely rofl stomped by Kenobi who took him out three separate times. Visla's performance against Maul is quite an outlier. Regardless, Visla only lasted so long because Maul was avoiding theuse of telekeneisis which would have brought the fight to an end immediately.

Visla can still likely at a minimum, contend with Oppress in a saber only confrontation so the question becomes how long it takes Starkiller to take out either brother with the force.

Starkiller's going to find force abuse incredibly more difficult with both brothers charging him with a lightsaber, at least one one who is an indisputably superior swordsmen(You could also argue for Oppress given recent revelations).

The question here is which team loses a member first.

Could you link the video? I've never really subscribed to this interpretation, could you elaborate on why you're certain he meant an act in the formal sense of episode structure? To me, Occam's razor dictates that when he's talking about some big "act" to "make sure he isn't mauled by Viszla fans at celebration", to "make the fight interesting", it sounds like Maul is putting on a show.

Maul putting on a show makes much more sense, when you consider Vizsla's showings against Kenobi and Ahsoka. Either that or another weird case of styles making fights in TCW? Or maybe non-Force users like Vizsla and Hondo are just competitive in Canon?

@i_like_swords:

One quote from this that's always left out is Filoni saying

"We really wanted to show the Mandolorian armour against someone who has the force."

I mean that pretty much puts the matter to bed on if he was using it IMO

Could you link the video? I've never really subscribed to this interpretation, could you elaborate on why you're certain he meant an act in the formal sense of episode structure?

The way he states it. He's not talking about the fight itself, he's talking about it's place and the time building up to it. The lead up to Maul vs Vizsla is the entire third act of that episode.

Also, just in the past, the way Filoni speaks, he always clarifies. He doesn't here.

Or maybe non-Force users like Vizsla and Hondo are just competitive in Canon?

Duh

@greysentinel365:

One quote from this that's always left out is Filoni saying

"We really wanted to show the Mandolorian armour against someone who has the force."

I mean that pretty much puts the matter to bed on if he was using it IMO

Well, you never stop having the Force. That wouldn't preclude Maul holding back.

The way he states it. He's not talking about the fight itself, he's talking about it's place and the time building up to it. The lead up to Maul vs Vizsla is the entire third act of that episode.

Having a look at the quotes:

"We had a pretty big strategy meeting about how we could force Vizsla into this fight, and really show the Mandalorian armor against someone who has the Force."

"This sword fight,that's a whole act, practically. To do it right, to make it exciting, that's a whole act. Because the fans of Pre Vizsla are gonna mob me at celebration in the future if Vizsla goes down too easily."

If Vizsla is capable of competing with Maul, why does he need to be forced into the fight? Why is it a concern of Filoni's that Vizsla could go down too easily, and that he needs to please the fans? If Vizsla can really compete with Maul, why is him going down too easily even a point of discussion? Shouldn't it go without saying? If it did, would he not have said, "yup, this is a badass fight, Vizsla vs Maul. Real nail biter." Instead he gives incredibly wishy-washy answers about why he wanted to show off how cool Vizsla is, without compromising his pride.

What does he mean by "practically" - an act in a narrative is an act, not virtually an act, not practically an act. It's an act. To me, he's saying, while it's not apparent that Maul is putting on an act, in practice, that's what the fight amounts to. A way for Maul to win over the Mandalorians.

Plus, it doesn't make sense for one sword-fight to encompass an entire act in the episode. You're incorrect when you say he said "the build up" is a whole act - no, he says just the few-minutes of sword fighting is an act. But given that these episodes are, what, at least 20 minutes long? I don't see how one sword fight takes up a whole act in the script. That would make it an incredibly short act, indeed.

Given the other quotes, that they just want to show off the Mandalorian armor (not necessarily Vizsla himself), they want to please the fans and not have Vizsla go down too easy, that they needed to really strategize to "do it right" and "make it exciting" - all of that suggests to me that they had to manufacture this artificial "duel" in order to maintain Vizsla's pride. It goes without saying that you want to make any fight "right" and "exciting" - so why Filoni would go into scrupulous amounts of detail about how delicate Vizsla's death should be handled, how the sword fight is an act, and that it was done so his fans would be pleased, just to say "yeah, it's the third act of the episode"... seems a bit too simple an explanation for me.

Also, just in the past, the way Filoni speaks, he always clarifies. He doesn't here.

He really didn't clarify anything. I think your interpretation is just as valid as mine for that reason, since he explained himself so poorly. The word act has many definitions. It was a really wishy-washy answer. It's clear the issue of Maul crushing Vizsla was on his mind when constructing the fight.

Duh

Got it all figured out, eh?

@i_like_swords:

He really didn't clarify anything. I think your interpretation is just as valid as mine for that reason

Fine by me.

@greysentinel365: /thread

:p

@i_like_swords: Nitpicking over someones phrasing isn't really worth getting into tooth and nails for.

Plus you had a massive debate of semantics yesterday and I figure you don't want to do that again.

@greysentinel365: Agreed. I tend to rant.

Nah, screw the above. Visla is a non force sensitive and hence gets his neck snapped instantly leaving Starkiller to get dogpiled.

Maul did not use telekinesis in his fight with Visla which is already inconsistent with Visla's fights vs Kenobi and Ahsoka. Visla is far too reliant on h2h and close quarters combat to be any good here vs force users who're using the force for more than augmentation.

Unless Starkiller is hiding another force user under his garments, I'm afraid he isn't going to win this any time soon.