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#1 Posted by blackymarket (160 posts) - - Show Bio
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Round 1: Force

Round 2: Sabers

Round 3: All-Out

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#2 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

Starkiller defeated Vader twice while more exhausted than he was after 13 days without food or drink and ragdolled him. Vader is a peer and slight superior to Jerec.

Starkiller stomps.

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#3 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

Some omission of context, but yes, Starkiller does win.

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#4 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

Some omission of context, but yes, Starkiller does win.

What context is missing?

The rage amp that Galen didn't actually have?

OT-Galen one shots.

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#5 Posted by GrandmasterGoat (67 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Posted by In-sidiousvader (2536 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: please. Please. Please. For my sanity for your friend! Stop saying vader is only slightly above jerec. You are physically aging me about 20 years per post.

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#7 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

Starkiller had ample time to recuperate (not saying he wasn't exhausted, because that's actually stated somewhere) and Vader was humongously pre-prime when "ragdolled" by Starkiller.

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#8 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@in-sidiousvader: Dismissing OOU sources simply to fit with head canon and because you don't like them is cherry picking at its finest. I won't cease posting the accolade until I see a debunk to it.

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#9 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

Starkiller had ample time to recuperate (not saying he wasn't exhausted, because that's actually stated somewhere) and Vader was humongously pre-prime when "ragdolled" by Starkiller.

Ample time to recuperate? He was more exhausted than he's ever been which would include the time where he spent 13 days without food or sleep. He had a few minutes to recover at most and that certainly isn't enough to recover his strength when he was more exhausted than ever.

As for Vader being humongously pre-prime when ragdolled by Galen I simply don't see it. His feats certainly aren't that much better and as of ESB he was still far weaker than KF Vader who Galen is on a similair tier to.

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#10 Posted by Richard96 (5799 posts) - - Show Bio

Starkiller clone is basically a peer of TFU II Vader, who is stronger than Jerec.

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#11 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

Starkiller clone is basically a peer of TFU II Vader, who is stronger than Jerec.

>Peer of TFU 2 Vader.

>Beats Vader while more exhausted than he'd ever been which includes the time where he had spent 13 days without food or sleep.

Marek ragdolls both Jerec and Vader combined lmao.

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#12 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: Seconds to recover lmfao, not minutes.

This was me being very generous to the Vader camp. Couldn't remember how long it was so I chose the time most favourable to team Vader to show that even being generous SK still stomps Vader.

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#14 Posted by Richard96 (5799 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

“>Beats Vader while more exhausted than he'd ever been which includes the time where he had spent 13 days without food or sleep.”

Starkiller had a rage amp which basically washed away his fatigue, or a good part of it. Yet Vader disarmed him and could have stabbed him, but decided to throw him back. It was clear Vader wasn’t going straight to the kill.

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#15 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96:

Starkiller had a rage amp which basically washed away his fatigue, or a good part of it.

You won't find a single thing in the text which remotely supports this. Galen was angry sure but he most certainly wasn't using Force Rage unlike what you suggest. If he was he wouldn't have broken off his attack after getting ragdolled and ask Vader to get out of his way. If he were in a state of Force Rage he would have kept on attempting to kill Vader. Furthermore if we take your argument that this is legit however it creates a laughable contradiction given Galen defeat Vader earlier in the cloning tower without a supposed "rage amp".

Yet Vader disarmed him and could have stabbed him, but decided to throw him back.

Here's what actually happened:

Galen was distracted by what happened to Juno per the Prima Guide which is how Vader managed to gain TK domination of him in the first place. He then throws Galen away.

It was clear Vader wasn’t going straight to the kill.

The novel notes otherwise.

So all in all Vader only manages to ragdoll a distracted Galen who most certainly wasn't rage amped. Meanwhile Galen earlier defeats Vader perfectly legitimately.

Peak Galen>Exhausted Galen>Vader.

Galen one shots Jerec and Vader combined.

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#16 Posted by Richard96 (5799 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

“You won't find a single thing in the text which remotely supports this. Galen was angry sure but he most certainly wasn't using Force Rage unlike what you suggest. If he was he wouldn't have broken off his attack after getting ragdolled and ask Vader to get out of his way. If he were in a state of Force Rage he would have kept on attempting to kill Vader.”

The game cutscenes clearly show Galen giving up to his rage, and also the novelization underlined that, just after Vader ragdolled Juno.

“Furthermore if we take your argument that this is legit however it creates a laughable contradiction given Galen defeat Vader earlier in the cloning tower without a supposed "rage amp".”

Galen didn’t defeat Vader in the cloning tower.

“Galen was distracted by what happened to Juno per the Prima Guide which is how Vader managed to gain TK domination of him in the first place. He then throws Galen away.”

Galen wasn’t distracted by anything. He clashed his sabers with Vader’s one, Vader moved his wrist fast and Galen got disarmed. Then Vader grabbed Galen by his throat, Galen was helpless and Vader could kill him, but he threw him away.

“Galen one shots Jerec and Vader combined.”

In your headcanon starkiller wank, yes. In reality, Galen can beat Vader but after the fight of his life. Jerec tips the scales in vader’s favour.

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#17 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96:

The game cutscenes clearly show Galen giving up to his rage, and also the novelization underlined that, just after Vader ragdolled Juno.

Yeah I never said Galen didn't give into his rage. I said it wasn't Force Rage (the state which allows one to recover from exhaustion) which is true enough.

Galen gives into his rage and attacks Vader but nothing indicates he submerged himself in the DS. He could have easily just been angry which is actuually the logic conclusion based on the events which take place afterwards.

Galen didn’t defeat Vader in the cloning tower.

Really?

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

Juno lying limp in his arms.

The vision struck him as powerfully as a physical blow. When he tried to push it aside, it returned with even more power.

Juno-dead.

He reeled in shock. Was this what would happen if he killed Vader? He had no choice but to believe so. But if he didn't kill Vader, how would he ever get to her?

The Dark Lord took advantage of his momentary confusion. He delivered a telekinetic shove that threw Starkiller backward off the platform and down to the lower levels of the ruined cloning tower. The blow and the fall had the welcome effect of clearing his mind. He turned in midair and landed on his feet. An instant later he was leaping upward again, his face a mask of determination.

Source: Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

As you can see above Galen would have killed Vader had he not had a vision of Juno dying.

Galen wasn’t distracted by anything.

But I provided a source which said he was...

No Caption Provided

He clashed his sabers with Vader’s one, Vader moved his wrist fast and Galen got disarmed. Then Vader grabbed Galen by his throat, Galen was helpless and Vader could kill him, but he threw him away.

Because Galen was distracted. If Vader could have ragdolled Gaken the whole time then why didn't he when he was doing "everything in his power" to stop Galen from getting to Juno.

In your headcanon starkiller wank, yes.

I mean beating your enemy while in an incredibly exhausted state suggests you're massively more powerful than them wouldn't you say?

In reality, Galen can beat Vader but after the fight of his life.

While exhausted.

Jerec tips the scales in vader’s favour.

Not really.

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#18 Posted by Richard96 (5799 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

“Yeah I never said Galen didn't give into his rage. I said it wasn't Force Rage (the state which allows one to recover from exhaustion) which is true enough. Galen gives into his rage and attacks Vader but nothing indicates he submerged himself in the DS. He could have easily just been angry which is actuually the logic conclusion based on the events which take place afterwards.”

If he was enraged he was rage amped. That’s enough for me. He was amped. Whether you argue the amp compensated the exhaustion or not it pretty irrilevant.

“As you can see above Galen would have killed Vader had he not had a vision of Juno dying.”

Galen found an opening and could hit Vader, but there is difference from there to saying he would have defeated Vader with that opening.

“Because Galen was distracted. If Vader could have ragdolled Gaken the whole time then why didn't he when he was doing "everything in his power" to stop Galen from getting to Juno.”

But that wasn’t the instance I was referring. I was referring to this:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5835103-1565772637-giphy.gif

“I mean beating your enemy while in an incredibly exhausted state suggests you're massively more powerful than them wouldn't you say?”

Galen was rage amped, that at least compensated the exhaustion. He found an opening in the cloning tower, but Vader found an opening in the gif I posted (and could have killed Galen if he wanted). I think the fight was pretty even.

“While exhausted.”

And rage amped.

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#19 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96:

If he was enraged he was rage amped. That’s enough for me. He was amped. Whether you argue the amp compensated the exhaustion or not it pretty irrilevant.

It wasn't an amp though. Being enraged doesn't mean you get instantly amped lmao. You have to enter a specific state called Force Rage in order to feel the benefits of an amp which Galen very clearly wasn't doing here.

Galen found an opening and could hit Vader, but there is difference from there to saying he would have defeated Vader with that opening.

He would've won though. Vader was immoblised with his Lightning prior which is how he knocked his blade aside and moved into strike. I find it incredibly implausible that Vader could have blocked that strike despite his blade being knocked to the side and being immobolised.

But that wasn’t the instance I was referring. I was referring to this:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5835103-1565772637-giphy.gif

This instance is gameplay mechanics and is therefore rendered non canon. It also doesn't happen in the novel which is coonfirmed as the one true canon path.

Furthermore during this instance Galen wasn't even enraged. Here are his thoughts during his final battle with Vader while trying to get to Juno:

A black-gloved hand grabbed his shoulder. He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief. Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just. Starkiller pushed, and the Dark Lord stumbled backward. Instead of pursuing the attack, Starkiller went to go to Juno, but once again Darth Vader stood in his path.

"Get out of my way. "

"Your feelings for her are not real, " Vader said, nor moving.

"They are real to me. "

Starkiller attacked the Dark Lord again, but this time he was the one driven back.

With a sense of piercing despair, he saw exactly how the fight would go. He and his former Master would dance like marionettes while Juno lay dying-if she wasn't already dead-and the war raged around them, unchecked by this minor tragedy. In the context of the galaxy's suffering, Juno was just one freedom fighter who had died that day-one among many on Kamino alone. Only she hadn't given her life in combat or to save someone less fortunate than herself. She had been snuffed out thanks to the manipulations of one single tortured man, a man whose stubbornness would never allow him to give up, admit fault, or compromise. Starkiller knew nothing about the Dark Lord's origins, but he knew what he had become. More monolith than man, his shadow bestrode the Empire, casting darkness wherever it fell. But what was the source of that scourge? What twisted psychology had brought him to where he stood now-risking his life to prevent the clone of his failed apprentice from coming near the body of the woman he had loved? Sudden understanding burst in Starkiller's mind. This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair. Where Starkiller had seen hope, where Starkiller had been willing to sacrifice his own destiny to give the woman he had loved a chance to live, his former Master had seen only opportunity for betrayal- for without Juno, what did Starkiller have left to live and fight for? He had no family, friends, or allies. Juno was always intended to be the catalyst for his downfall. Her precipitous attack had merely brought the critical moment forward. Starkiller saw things very differently. It wasn't Juno who had to die to complete Starkiller's training. It was Darth Vader himself, and he had brought this moment upon himself. Had he been content to let Starkiller go, none of this would have happened. Were he dead or freely searching for Juno, either way, he would never have willingly come back to Kamino. He would have gone anywhere else, and never returned. Darth Vader simply wouldn't let go. The massive cloning exercise itself was proof of that. He had raised Starkiller to be a monster, and he would let nothing get in the way of achieving that outcome. Not even Starkiller's own death. Even if it took a thousand reincarnations and the death of trillions of innocent people, Darth Vader would not give up. His persistence, his unwillingness to accept defeat, was both his greatest strength and his greatest weakness. All the clones were destroyed. As far as Starkiller knew, he was the last one left-so that was one vision averted, at least. No matter what happened, no version of him would fall foul of Darth Vader's vile plan now. They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked. They broke apart, lightsabers hissing in the ceaseless rain. Lightning split the sky into a thousand jagged shapes. Thunder rolled. Neither had noticed the battle fading around them.

"Let me go, " Starkiller said, sounding much calmer than he felt. His heart was pounding, and his lungs burned. "You've taken everything from me. You must see that I will never serve you now. "

"You are wrong. I have given you everything. "

"This?" He gestured at Juno's inert form. He couldn't tell if she was breathing, but he still held out a distant hope. "You have done nothing for me. "

"It is our destiny to destroy the Emperor. You and me, together. "

There it was, Starkiller thought. That promise again. Surely Darth Vader could see that it meant nothing now, after so many times offered in the past, and none of them fulfilled?

Unless... A deeper layer of understanding presented itself. Unless Darth Vader felt exactly the same as he did. What lengths had the Emperor, Darth Vader's Master, gone to in order to create him? And how far would Darth Vader go to get revenge? To attain his own destiny as a Sith?

"The Rebels want to destroy the Emperor, " Starkiller said. "Why not work with them rather th-?"

Vader attacked before he could finish the sentence, a blistering combination of blows that left Starkiller on his back foot. Clearly he had hit a very deep nerve. For a fleeting moment, the plan had seemed almost inspired. With Darth Vader on Kota's side, what couldn't the Alliance accomplish? But it was a dream. The Rebels would never trust the Emperor's apprentice, and Vader was making it very clear that he wanted no part of it either. The vehemence of his response left no doubt about that.

Credit: The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

Doesn't really seem like he was rage amped does it?

Galen was rage amped, that at least compensated the exhaustion.

Rage=/=amp.

You have to enter a specific state called Force Rage in order to be amped and there is plenty of evidence Galen didn't enter Force Rage. Galen was angry for a few seconds that's it and most certainly wasn't amped.

He found an opening in the cloning tower, but Vader found an opening in the gif I posted (and could have killed Galen if he wanted).

Gameplay mechanics are N-Canon and the novelization is the one true canon path.

I think the fight was pretty even.

It was for the most part but it was while Galen was exhausted.

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#20 Posted by Richard96 (5799 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

“It wasn't an amp though. Being enraged doesn't mean you get instantly amped lmao. You have to enter a specific state called Force Rage in order to feel the benefits of an amp which Galen very clearly wasn't doing here.”

Why, if I may ask? Force users get amped when they are angry, especially ones who tend to the dark side like Galen. Why wasn’t Galen in force rage?

“He would've won though. Vader was immoblised with his Lightning prior which is how he knocked his blade aside and moved into strike. I find it incredibly implausible that Vader could have blocked that strike despite his blade being knocked to the side and being immobolised.”

Probably Vader could have be hit, but he is very durable and one blow isn’t most likely enough to defeat him.

“This instance is gameplay mechanics and is therefore rendered non canon. It also doesn't happen in the novel which is coonfirmed as the one true canon path.”

Nope. It is a game cutscene, not gameplay, hence canon.

“Doesn't really seem like he was rage amped does it?”

He doesn’t even seem exhausted, lol. There is even to consider that he can have, instead of a rage amp, a focusing amp due to his love of Juno and his will to save her. Also, when he was still rage amped Vader managed to drive him back:

“Starkiller attacked the Dark Lord again, but this time he was the one driven back.”

Hence it is clear Vader was a match for him.

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#21 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96:

Why, if I may ask? Force users get amped when they are angry, especially ones who tend to the dark side like Galen. Why wasn’t Galen in force rage?

If this is a serious response I might actually quit this discussion. If we go by the logic that rage is an amp shouldn't DS users be far more powerful than LS users? Being enraged doesn't negate exhaustion otherwise every DS user would have no trouble in fights. The requirements for negating exhaustion are giving fully into the DS and entering a state called Force Rage which the text actually notes Galen was yet to do with it saying he was yet to embrace the DS. In fact going into a state of Force rage and being literally able to break out of it a moment later is described as "unprecedented" in SW lore with only ROTJ Luke accomplishing such a feat which includes Starkiller. Logic dictates Galen hadn't entered a state of Force Rage and thus he can't have recieved a boost.

Furthermore rage can be hindering for Force Users in certain instances (see Obi Wan's fight with Darth Maul in TCW S4) and the prima guide notes Galen's focus wavers while he is enraged. Him entering a state of rage was actually very likely hindering for him as he wasn't drawing off the DS but just throwing an unfocused assualt at Vader.

Probably Vader could have be hit, but he is very durable and one blow isn’t most likely enough to defeat him.

TFU 1 disagrees. When Galen attacks Vader in TFU and scores a hit on Vader's throat the latter is taken out of the fight.

Nope. It is a game cutscene, not gameplay, hence canon.

There's literally health bars at the top of the screen and a second later you literally have to press buttons on your controller/keyboard to move along a metal bar indicating it was still a gameplay section.

Definitely a cutscene...

Plus it also never happens in the novel which takes precedence over any contradictory sources and this scene is therefore overruled and retconned.

He doesn’t even seem exhausted, lol.

Really?

The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being.

Credit: The Force Unleashed 2

Just because the author doesn't feel the need to go into detail on it doesn't mean it wasn't the case.

There is even to consider that he can have, instead of a rage amp, a focusing amp due to his love of Juno and his will to save her.

He wasn't love amped lmao. Being amped by love is something that is unprecedented in SW lore. There is absolutely no evidence for this being the case and I'm not even willing to entertain this idea.

Also, when he was still rage amped Vader managed to drive him back:

“Starkiller attacked the Dark Lord again, but this time he was the one driven back.”

For the last time:

A) Starkiller being enraged does not mean he was amped.

B) Galen literally wasn't even enraged in this instance:

Instead of pursuing the attack, Starkiller went to go to Juno, but once again Darth Vader stood in his path.

"Get out of my way. "

"Your feelings for her are not real, " Vader said, nor moving.

"They are real to me. "

Starkiller attacked the Dark Lord again, but this time he was the one driven back.

Credit: The Force Unleashed 2

The section you're referring to is underlined at the bottom. As you can blatantly see he wasn't enraged. He literally asks Vader to get out of his way rather than just attacking him which someone under the influence of rage would do.

Hence it is clear Vader was a match for him.

While he was exhausted.

The fact that you think someone who can contend with TFU Sidious is Vader level is simply one of the most laughable claims I've ever heard and doesn't even deserve to be entertained.

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#22 Posted by Richard96 (5799 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

“If we go by the logic that rage is an amp shouldn't DS users be far more powerful than LS users?”

In fact DS users can boost themselves via rage. That doesn’t mean they are automatically more powerful than any LS users. When anakin gave up to his rage on the invisible hand stomped dooku. Why should it be different for Galen here?

“Being enraged doesn't negate exhaustion otherwise every DS user would have no trouble in fights.”

Even rage amps have limits.

“The requirements for negating exhaustion are giving fully into the DS and entering a state called Force Rage which the text actually notes Galen was yet to do with it saying he was yet to embrace the DS.”

Anakin tapped into the DS to beat dooku, yet he wasn’t still completely corrupted. Also TPM Kenobi used his rage against maul and was amped, yet he recognized he was using the DS and stopped.

“In fact going into a state of Force rage and being laterally able to break out of it a moment later is described as "unprecedented" in SW lore with only ROTJ Luke accomplishing such a feat which includes Starkiller.”

I have examples of the opposite.

“TFU 1 disagrees. When Galen attacks Vader in TFU and scores a hit on Vader's throat the latter is taken out of the fight.”

When?

“There's literally health bars at the top of the screen and a second later you literally have to press buttons on your controller/keyboard to move along a metal bar indicating it was still a gameplay section.”

It is a scene that happens always. It is not a fight you can’t really control and change, hence it is canon.

“Plus it also never happens in the novel which takes precedence over any contradictory sources and this scene is therefore overruled and retconned.”

Says who?

“The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being.”

That was largely before the time Vader disarmed Galen. Also, a force user can wash away fatigue simply with force augmentation, like dooku did on the IH. There is a single refer to this “exhaustion” in the novel, and then nothing in the fight mention the fact Galen was hindered by that. I think you are overplaying this a bit.

“He wasn't love amped lmao. Being amped by love is something that is unprecedented in SW lore. There is absolutely no evidence for this being the case and I'm not even willing to entertain this idea.”

You can be amped by focusing for a goal, like kenobi vs maul in rebels.

“The section you're referring to is underlined at the bottom. As you can blatantly see he wasn't enraged. He literally asks Vader to get out of his way rather than just attacking him which someone under the influence of rage would do.”

Lol that means nothing. Few lines above the text says Galen attacked Vader with all his rage. Then he yells at vader: “out of my way!!!”. I don’t see why he should be enraged.

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#23 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96:

In fact DS users can boost themselves via rage. That doesn’t mean they are automatically more powerful than any LS users.

You said giving into rage is an amp which implied rage boosts people beyond their normal capablities therefore making DS users stronger than LS users as their abilities are pushed beyond the norm as they use rage to fuel their power. This is completely contradictory to what you're saying here basically giving me a concession on the point that Galen was amped.

When anakin gave up to his rage on the invisible hand stomped dooku. Why should it be different for Galen here?

Because of different circumstances. Anakin giving himself over to the DS allowed him to remove mental blocks he'd placed around himself and finally unleash his full strength. With Galen no such blocks were present.

Note that I'm not saying Force Users cannot become amped due to an their rage being pushed beyond the norm via with examples being the Obi Wan vs Maul fight in TPM I'm simply arguing this was not the case here due to different circumstances.

Even rage amps have limits.

If this is the case then Galen shouldn't be recovered from exhaustion. When DS users can be exhausted by just engaging in a fight surely Galen should still be tired even with a rage amp given he was literally more exhausted than he was without 13 days of food or sleep.

Unless of course rage doesn't actually boost people unless they completely give over to the DS in its entirety due to emotional circumstances which were not present here.

Anakin tapped into the DS to beat dooku, yet he wasn’t still completely corrupted.

That was because he wasn't actually using Force Rage lmao. Anakin using the DS to remove mental barriers that no other Force Users have does not qualify as a rage amp.

Also TPM Kenobi used his rage against maul and was amped, yet he recognized he was using the DS and stopped.

Yeah after he'd been beaten. The concept of Force Rage is that the person who enters the state slowly begins to tire due to the state taking a lot out of a person. Over the course of the time spent in the state the Force User becomes less enraged as they become more tired as the state requires a lot of reserves to keep going. The Force User either finally falls unconscious or drains most of their reserves and gets pushed out of the state leaving them exhausted allowing them to either dispell the rest of their rage and draw off the LS again or just keep drawing off DS but to a much lesser degree. This is all referenced in The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia. Obi Wan wasn't fighting his rage in any sense of the word. He doesn't manage to exist the state until he's tired from drawing upon his reserves.

The TPM fight for reference:

Free at last of the laser wall, Obi-Wan Kenobi charged out of the service tunnel and into the chamber that housed the melting pit. Abandoning any pretense of observing even the slightest caution, he barreled into Darth Maul with such fury that he almost knocked both of them off the ledge and into the abyss. He struck at the Sith Lord with his lightsaber as if his own safety meant nothing, lost in a red haze of rage and frustration, consumed by his grief for Qui-Gon and his failure to prevent his friend's fall.

The Sith Lord was borne backward by the Jedi Knight's initial rush, caught off guard by the other's wild assault, and pressed all the way back to the far wall of the melting pit. There he struggled to keep the young Jedi at bay, trying to open enough space between them to defend himself. Lightsabers scraped and grated against each other, and the chamber echoed with their fury. Lunging and twisting, Darth Maul regained the offensive and counterattacked, using both ends of his lightsaber in an effort to cut Obi-Wan's legs out from under him. But Obi-Wan, while not so experienced as Qui-Gon, was quicker. Anticipating each blow, he was able to elude his antagonist's efforts to bring him down.

The struggle took them around the edge of the melting pit and into the nooks and alcoves beyond, into shadowed recesses and around smoky pillars and pipe housings. Twice, Obi-Wan went down, losing his footing on the smooth flooring of the melting pit's rim. Once, Darth Maul hammered at him with such determination that he scorched the young Jedi's tunic, shoulder to waist, and it was only by countering with an upthrust counterstrike to the other's midsection and by rolling quickly away and back to his feet that Obi-Wan was able to escape.

They fought their way back toward the laser-riddled service passage, past Qui-Gon's still form, and into a tangle of vent tubes and circuit housings. Steam burst from ruptured pipes, and the air was filled with the acrid smell of scorched wiring. Darth Maul began to use his command of the Force to fling heavy objects at Obi-Wan, trying to throw him off balance, to disable him, to disrupt the flow of his attack. Obi-Wan responded in kind, and the air was filled with deadly missiles. Lightsabers flicked right and left to ward off the objects, and the clash of errant metal careening off stone walls formed an eerie shriek in the gloom.

The battle wore on, and for a time it was fought evenly. But Darth Maul was the stronger of the two and was driven by a frenzy that surpassed even the frantic determination that fueled Obi-Wan. Eventually, the Sith Lord began to wear the young Jedi down. Bit by bit, he pressed him back, carrying the attack to him, looking to catch him off guard. Obi-Wan could sense his body weakening, and his fear of what it would mean if he, too, were to fall, began to grow.

Never! he swore furiously.

Qui-Gon's words came back to him. Don't center on your fears. Concentrate on the here and now. He struggled to do so, to contain the emotions warring within and bearing him down. Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan. Be strong.

Sensing his opportunity slipping away from him and his strength waning, Obi-Wan mounted a final assault. He rushed the Sith Lord with a series of side blows designed to bring the two-bladed lightsaber horizontal. Then he feinted an attack to his enemy's left and brought his own lightsaber over and down with such force that he severed the other's weapon.

Crying out in fury, he cut triumphantly at the Sith Lord's horned head, a killing blow. And missed completely.

Darth Maul, anticipating the maneuver, had stepped smoothly away. Discarding the lesser half of his severed weapon, he counterattacked swiftly, striking at Obi-Wan with enough force that he knocked the young Jedi sideways and off balance. Quickly he struck him again, harder still, and this time Obi-Wan lost his footing completely and tumbled over the edge of the pit, his lightsaber flying from his hand. For an instant, he was falling, tumbling away into the dark. He reached out in desperation and caught hold of a metal rung just below the lip of the pit.

There he hung, helpless, staring up at a triumphant Darth Maul.

Darth Maul walked slowly to the edge of the melting pit, tattooed face bathed in sweat, eye wild and bright with joy. The battle was finished. The last Jedi was about to be dispatched. He smiled and shifted the remnant of his shattered lightsaber from one hand to the other, savoring the moment.

Eyes fixed on the Sith Lord, Obi-Wan Kenobi went deep inside himself, connecting with the Force he had worked so hard to understand. Calming himself, stilling the trembling of his heart, and banishing his anger and fear, he called upon the last of his reserves. With clarity of purpose and strength of heart, he launched himself away from the side of the pit and catapulted back toward its lip. Imbued with the power of the Force, he cleared the rim easily, somersaulting behind the Sith Lord in a single smooth, powerful motion. Even as he landed, he was drawing Qui-Gon Jinn's fallen lightsaber to his outstretched hand.

Darth Maul whirled to confront him, shock and rage twisting his red and black face. But before he could act to save himself, Qui-Gon's lightsaber slashed through his chest, burning him with killing fire. The stricken Sith Lord howled in pain and disbelief.

Then Obi-Wan turned, thumbed his saber off, and watched his dying enemy tumble away into the pit.

Credit: The Phantom Menace Novelization

As you can see Obi Wan eventually tires from drawing off his extreme rage and therefore he removes himself from his state of Force Rage not because he was conflicted all along or because he could actually remove himself from that state.

I have examples of the opposite.

Provide me with one.

When?

Here:

"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."

The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.

Credit: The Force Unleashed Novelization

While Vader isn't actually killed or disabled by this it's made pretty self evident he lost when Galen struck him.

It is a scene that happens always. It is not a fight you can’t really control and change, hence it is canon.

It always happening as part of a QTE segment to defeat the boss doesn't make it canon lol.

Says who?

SW.com. Not to mention even if the novel weren't the one true canon path this scene would still be overruled by the novel anyway by virtue of the novel and the DS version depicting vastly different ways the fight ended.

That was largely before the time Vader disarmed Galen.

Not it wasn't. It's literally like literally a few seconds before Vader and Galen's confrontation.

Also, a force user can wash away fatigue simply with force augmentation, like dooku did on the IH.

Which is the exception not the rule. In literally every other fight in SW characters have been repeatedly proven to not be able to remove exhaustion with a snap of their fingers.

There is a single refer to this “exhaustion” in the novel, and then nothing in the fight mention the fact Galen was hindered by that. I think you are overplaying this a bit.

Yeah cause the author doesn't feel the need to go into detail about Galen's exhastion because it's not the point of the passage. Imagine how terrible the final fight would be if the author decided to mention Galen's exhaustion every two seconds.

It's like Caedus's fight with Katarn and co. The fact that he hadn't recovered from his duel with Luke is mentioned in one sentence but that doesn't mean it's not relevant.

You can be amped by focusing for a goal, like kenobi vs maul in rebels.

There is no indication that Kenobi was amped.

Lol that means nothing. Few lines above the text says Galen attacked Vader with all his rage. Then he yells at vader: “out of my way!!!”. I don’t see why he should be enraged.

Jesus Christ. If Galen was in a state of Force Rage he'd be acting under mindless bloodlust rather than asking his master to get out of his way he'd attack him.

Not to mention the text doesn't mention him yelling that at Vader. You just made that up to fit with your head canon.

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#25 Posted by Richard96 (5799 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

“You said giving into rage is an amp which implied rage boosts people beyond their normal capablities therefore making DS users stronger than LS users as their abilities are pushed beyond the norm as they use rage to fuel their power. This is completely contradictory to what you're saying here basically giving me a concession on the point that Galen was amped.”

And where is this contradiction?

“Because of different circumstances. Anakin giving himself over to the DS allowed him to remove mental blocks he'd placed around himself and finally unleash his full strength. With Galen no such blocks were present.”

Fair enough.

“Note that I'm not saying Force Users cannot become amped due to an their rage being pushed beyond the norm via with examples being the Obi Wan vs Maul fight in TPM I'm simply arguing this was not the case here due to different circumstances.”

The circumstances of kenobi vs maul are pretty similar to the ones of Galen vs Vader.

“Unless of course rage doesn't actually boost people unless they completely give over to the DS in its entirety due to emotional circumstances which were not present here.”

Emotional circumstances are clearly PRESENT here.

“As you can see Obi Wan eventually tires from drawing off his extreme rage and therefore he removes himself from his state of Force Rage not because he was conflicted all along or because he could actually remove himself from that state.”

Yes, but he enters in another state of amp, even more potent. He gets focused and he manages to cut maul’s saberstaff.

“Qui-Gon's words came back to him. Don't center on your fears. Concentrate on the here and now. He struggled to do so, to contain the emotions warring within and bearing him down. Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan. Be strong.”

Then he gets enraged again and actually maul recovers and beats him.

“Provide me with one.”

Kenobi got a focusing amp that was more powerful than the rage amp. Also Galen calmed down and focused to save Juno.

“While Vader isn't actually killed or disabled by this it's made pretty self evident he lost when Galen struck him.”

Galen hit him at his throat. We don’t know where he could have hit him during the fight in the cloning tower.

“It always happening as part of a QTE segment to defeat the boss doesn't make it canon lol.”

You can’t control Galen in that instance. It is not gameplay, Jesus. The fight where you have to damage Vader is.

“SW.com.”

Really? Do you have a link?

“Not to mention even if the novel weren't the one true canon path this scene would still be overruled by the novel anyway by virtue of the novel and the DS version depicting vastly different ways the fight ended.”

That cutscene happens in both the DS and LS continuity.

“Not it wasn't. It's literally like literally a fewseconds before Vader and Galen's confrontation.”

It was before the fight in the cloning tower, hence much before the cutscene where Galen got disarmed, hence before Galen could get amped.

“Which is the exception not the rule. In literally every other fight in SW characters have been repeatedly proven to not be able to remove exhaustion with a snap of their fingers.”

Eh, too easy. Can you provide examples of fight where exhaustion played a decisive role? Don’t say Qui-Gon, cause he is much less powerful than dooku and Galen. Dooku is arguably less powerful than TFU II Galen, yet he replenished his reserves in a moment.

“There is no indication that Kenobi was amped.”

See above.

“Jesus Christ. If Galen was in a state of Force Rage he'd be acting under mindless bloodlust rather than asking his master to get out of his way he'd attack him.”

Lol, rage doesn’t prevent you to talk.

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#26 Posted by The_Dog_of_War (2151 posts) - - Show Bio

Starkiller wins fairly easily.

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#27 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96:

And where is this contradiction?

You said drawing off the DS is an amp and then said that they aren't stronger than LS users therefore making drawing off the DS not an amp as their abilities aren't boosted beyong the norm if they're equal to LS users.

The circumstances of kenobi vs maul are pretty similar to the ones of Galen vs Vader.

No they aren't lol. Galen is an entirely different character from Obi Wan and reacts differently. While both were enraged Kenobi actually drew off the DS meanwhile Galen obviously didn't as per the text saying he was yet to give into his anger.

Emotional circumstances are clearly PRESENT here.

Yeah and they hindered him. Vader throwing Juno made Galen enraged sure but it also distracted and caused him to lose focus. There is no evidence he entered a state of Force Rage like Obi Wan did.

Yes, but he enters in another state of amp, even more potent. He gets focused and he manages to cut maul’s saberstaff.

“Qui-Gon's words came back to him. Don't center on your fears. Concentrate on the here and now. He struggled to do so, to contain the emotions warring within and bearing him down. Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan. Be strong.”

Then he gets enraged again and actually maul recovers and beats him.

This doesn't prove anything though. I pointed out that Kenobi didn't leave his state of rage until after he was beaten which you've yet to refute. All this proves is Kenobi banished his fear temporarily but never really removed himself from his state of rage.

Kenobi got a focusing amp that was more powerful than the rage amp. Also Galen calmed down and focused to save Juno.

Niether of these are examples lol Kenobi got a focusing amp when he removed his fear not his rage lol and as for Galen I've already pointed out that seeing as he wasn't drawing off the Dark Side his rage hindered him and left him vunerable and unfocused certainly not "amped".

Galen hit him at his throat. We don’t know where he could have hit him during the fight in the cloning tower.

He would have presumably hit Vader in the most harmful place given he's a master swordsman with a massive target.

Not to mention whether Marek could have killed Vader or not is irrelevant. It's incredibly hard for me to buy the argument he was amped when moments earlier Marek was able to score a hit on him and contend with him while exhausted moments earlier.

You can’t control Galen in that instance. It is not gameplay, Jesus. The fight where you have to damage Vader is.

You literally can control Galen lol. Afterwards you can move along the metal bar and there are literally health bars at the top of the screen. It always happends because it's a QTE to end the boss not because it's actually canon.

Really? Do you have a link?

No unfortunately but I do have the original quote:

In 2008, the next chapter of the Star Wars saga will be told in LucasArts' brand-new, next generation video game, Star Wars: The Force Unleashed. The game casts players as Darth Vader's "Secret Apprentice" and the storyline promises to unveil new revelations about the Star Wars galaxy. The official The Force Unleashed novel by author Sean Williams (based on the story by Haden Blackman) will cover the events of the game, providing the one true "canon" path of events that affect the Star Wars saga.

Credit: First Look: The Force Unleashed Novel, StarWars.com

Now I know this is referring to TFU 1 but logic follows that it would be the same for TFU 2.

That cutscene happens in both the DS and LS continuity.

I meant DS as in the Nintendo DS not Dark Side continuity lmao.

It was before the fight in the cloning tower, hence much before the cutscene where Galen got disarmed, hence before Galen could get amped.

It was before the fight in The Cloning Tower sure but I'm not sure why this invalidates its relevance. Marek and Vader start fighting a few seconds after the statement. Also Galen wasn't amped lmao. Every source on the matter says he was hindered when Vader ragdolled him and that he was only angered for a few seconds lol.

Eh, too easy. Can you provide examples of fight where exhaustion played a decisive role? Don’t say Qui-Gon, cause he is much less powerful than dooku and Galen. Dooku is arguably less powerful than TFU II Galen, yet he replenished his reserves in a moment.

First off we have the question of why Marek didn't just remove his exhaustion during those 13 says without food and sleep and second off we have GM Luke Skywalker being unable to replenish his reserves with a mere wave of his hand with him having to undergo meditation and he's far more powerful than Galen.

He felt weary. Well, wearier. That last fight on Almania had stolen a lot of his strength. Keeping himself going despite his injury had taken more. And now this. What he had sacrificed he would eventually regain, after rest and food and meditation, but for now he felt tired to his bones.

Credit: Fate of the Jedi

Yeah Marek just waved his hand and replenished himself despite GM Luke not being able to do so. Yeah I don't think so.

See above.

You haven't sourced Kenobi being amped against Maul in Rebels anywhere in your post though.

Lol, rage doesn’t prevent you to talk.

No it doesn't but the fact that Marek asked Vader to get out of his way rather than Forcing him to (like someone in a mindless bloodlust would do) is quite telling as to his mental state.

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#29 Posted by Richard96 (5799 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3

I am sorry for the late reply. I'm very busy in this period.

You said drawing off the DS is an amp and then said that they aren't stronger than LS users therefore making drawing off the DS not an amp as their abilities aren't boosted beyong the norm if they're equal to LS users.

Hell, no. Dark siders always draw on their rage, hence they are always amped by it. This does not mean a DS user is necessarily stronger than a LS one. Dooku was weaker as a Jedi, yet even as a Sith he remained weaker than yoda. Anyway, even DS users can be angrier than usual, thanks to traumatic events or particular circumstances.

No they aren't lol. Galen is an entirely different character from Obi Wan and reacts differently. While both were enraged Kenobi actually drew off the DS meanwhile Galen obviously didn't as per the text saying he was yet to give into his anger.

After he calmed down. But he actually got enraged after vader pushed juno. Just like kenobi after maul hit Jinn. Then they calmed down.

A black-gloved hand grabbed his shoulder. He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his RAGE, all his grief. Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just.

Yeah and they hindered him. Vader throwing Juno made Galen enraged sure but it also distracted and caused him to lose focus.

Nothing implies he lost focus, given his blow was barely parried by vader.

This doesn't prove anything though. I pointed out that Kenobi didn't leave his state of rage until after he was beaten which you've yet to refute. All this proves is Kenobi banished his fear temporarily but never really removed himself from his state of rage.

What?. He struggled to do so, to contain the emotions warring within and bearing him down. This passage is clear. He tried to contain his emotions, hence he was removing himself from the state of rage! In this frame he managed to achieve his best feat, that is cutting maul's saberstaff.

Niether of these are examples lol Kenobi got a focusing amp when he removed his fear not his rage lol and as for Galen I've already pointed out that seeing as he wasn't drawing off the Dark Side his rage hindered him and left him vunerable and unfocused certainly not "amped".

As i showed above, Kenobi contained his emotions, hence removing his rage.

Not to mention whether Marek could have killed Vader or not is irrelevant. It's incredibly hard for me to buy the argument he was amped when moments earlier Marek was able to score a hit on him and contend with him while exhausted moments earlier.

Marek got enraged as soon as he saw vader. He hates the guy and wants to save juno.

You literally can control Galen lol. Afterwards you can move along the metak bar and there are literally health bars at the top of the screen. It always happends because it's a QTE to end the boss not because it's actually canon.

You have just to press some buttons to achieve the final move, but it is a move that is always the same and set in stone. It can't change from a player to another.

Now I know this is referring to TFU 1 but logic follows that it would be the same for TFU 2.

Ok, but in the book how does galen defeat vader definitively?

I meant DS as in the Nintendo DS not DarK Side continuity lmao.

Lol ok.

Yeah Marek just waved his hand and replenished himself despite GM Luke not being able to do so. Yeah I don't think so.

GM luke was also badly injured. Galen was only tired, like dooku.

You haven't sourced Kenobi being amped against Maul in Rebels anywhere in your post though.

Sorry.

When pressed, because Obi-Wan is protecting someone else in the end, he does fight. But because he is so true and knows who he is in that moment, you can't defeat that.

Dave Filoni

Kenobi was clearly emotionally amped, cause he was fighting to protect someone (Luke). The same for galen, who was fighting for juno.

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#30 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96:

I am sorry for the late reply. I'm very busy in this period.

Alright that's fine. I can't really talk given how long it takes me to respond to people. I'm actually surprised I've managed to keep consistently responding to you.

Hell, no. Dark siders always draw on their rage, hence they are always amped by it. This does not mean a DS user is necessarily stronger than a LS one. Dooku was weaker as a Jedi, yet even as a Sith he remained weaker than yoda.

That's my point though. The fact that drawing off the Dark Side does not give them greater powers than Light Side users basically means it's not an amp.

Anyway, even DS users can be angrier than usual, thanks to traumatic events or particular circumstances.

Yeah when they're angrier than usual due to traumatic events or particular circumstances I won't deny they normally benefit from an amp.

After he calmed down. But he actually got enraged after vader pushed juno. Just like kenobi after maul hit Jinn. Then they calmed down.

Difference being Kenobi was noted to be drawing off the DS in that instance Marek wasn't. The text notes he was yet to give into the temptation of the Dark Side.

Nothing implies he lost focus, given his blow was barely parried by vader.

That was because Vader wasn't expecting Marek's attack. And as for nothing implying he lost focus I literally posted a source which says otherwise.

No Caption Provided

What?. He struggled to do so, to contain the emotions warring within and bearing him down. This passage is clear. He tried to contain his emotions, hence he was removing himself from the state of rage! In this frame he managed to achieve his best feat, that is cutting maul's saberstaff.

The text is talking about his fear which it literally notes just prior:

The battle wore on, and for a time it was fought evenly. But Darth Maul was the stronger of the two and was driven by a frenzy that surpassed even the frantic determination that fueled Obi-Wan. Eventually, the Sith Lord began to wear the young Jedi down. Bit by bit, he pressed him back, carrying the attack to him, looking to catch him off guard. Obi-Wan could sense his body weakening, and his fear of what it would mean if he, too, were to fall, began to grow.

Never! he swore furiously.

Qui-Gon's words came back to him. Don't center on your fears. Concentrate on the here and now. He struggled to do so, to contain the emotions warring within and bearing him down. Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan. Be strong.

Credit: The Phantom Menace Novelization

Nothing in this passage indicates it was referring to rage lmao.

As i showed above, Kenobi contained his emotions, hence removing his rage.

You showed he banished his fear not his rage. He literally cries out in fury a second after banishing his fear lmao indicating he did not remove himself from his state of rage.

Marek got enraged as soon as he saw vader. He hates the guy and wants to save juno.

Yeah sure...

They were all dead. He had destroyed every last one of them. He was the only one left-of the many Darth Vader had created to do his bidding.

"Why me?" he asked the silent cloning tower.

"Search your feelings, " Vader said, stepping into view at the very top of the tower, lightsaber held tightly in his right hand. "The answer lies within you. "

Starkiller stared up at his former Master. What did he have that none of the other clones did?

He remembered:

"How long this time?"

"Thirteen days. Impressive. "

And he remembered:

" The Force gives me all I need. "

"The Force?"

"The dark side. I mean. "

Slowly a dark understanding began to form. All the duels, all the tests, all the torturous mind games, had been to ensure his survival against every opponent-bar one. His Master. In a sense, they were still playing out the first time they had faced each other in combat.

He didn't remember the early days of his apprenticeship, when the memories of his parents had been strong and the young boy he had once been resisted Vader's absolute authority, but he was sure the battle had been even then, psychological. The battle would never cease until one of them won.

Was this what it was like to be a Sith? Forever at war with one's own Master?

"Your training made me strong enough to escape you, " he said, "not obey you. "

"Yet here you are. " Darth Vader's words fell on him like heavy weights. "My most deadly creation. "

"You lie!" Starkiller jumped up to the next platform, passion stirring him to action. "You never wanted this. You can't have. Once Juno has been rescued, your facility will be destroyed. You with it, if there's any justice. "

"There is no justice, " said Darth Vader, watching him ascend. "Only power. "

Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn't waste time announcing his intentions. He just lunged. Only at the very last moment did Vader raise his blade to block the blow, and even then the move seemed almost casual, disinterested. Starkiller struck again, with both lightsabers. Vader blocked one blade and used telekinesis to throw the other off target. The platform buckled and twisted, sending Starkiller flying.

He rolled and leapt, and came up swinging. Covered in blood-the blood of his fellow clones-and knowing Juno was close, he fought his former Master with single-minded focus. Vader was still testing him; he sensed that more and more keenly, with every passing moment, but to what purpose he still couldn't tell. Vader himself fought more cautiously than he had on the Death Star, the last time they had dueled in earnest. His armor seemed to have improved, too; it was less vulnerable to lightning than it had been just days before.

Vader threw wrecked platforms and cloning rubes at him, while he scored three slashes to the Dark Lord's cape in return. They circled the top of the cloning tower, striking and assessing, then striking again.

Starkiller swore that he would not give in to anger or frustration. If that was what Darth Vader wanted, he wasn't going to get it. The only emotion he would give in to was love.


Credit: The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

The first time Galen sees Vader. I've underlined the relevant part for you. All he does is question what Vader's plan is and swear not to give into anger and frustration. No indication of any form of an amp.

You have just to press some buttons to achieve the final move, but it is a move that is always the same and set in stone. It can't change from a player to another.

That doesn't mean it isn't gameplay mechanics lmao. It's literally just a QTE segment where you press some buttons to finish the boss. The fact that it happens everytime doesn't make it canon. A similair thing happens with AT-ST's. For every AT-ST you fight you do the same move to finish it. That doesn't make that move canon lmao.

Ok, but in the book how does galen defeat vader definitively?

He tricks Vader into thinking he's won and hits him in the chest with Lightning:

Starkiller found himself backed up almost to the edge of the cloning spire's roof. One more step, and he would fall, and to fall would give Vader the high ground. That might not result in his death, but it would certainly end the fight.

It needed to end now, or else it might never end.

Blow after blow rained on him, forcing him back. There had to be a way to free himself and avenge Juno at the same time... but a stalemate seemed unavoidable. Any move he made was sure to lead him to an indefensible position.

Then it occurred to him. An indefensible position was exactly what he needed.

He lunged. Darth Vader saw him coming and swiped with unbearable strength, sending Starkiller's left lightsaber flying in pieces. Starkiller lunged again, and his right lightsaber joined his left. He fell back, beaten, and stared up at his former Master.

"This is your last chance, " Vader said, standing over him with the unwavering tip of his lightsaber pointed directly at Starkiller's chest.

Starkiller stared up at the black mask, sure of two things. Vader didn't want to kill him, but not out of mercy or sympathy for his lot. The Dark Lord had invested far too much time and energy in re-creating his former apprentice, and he wouldn't want to throw all that away. Not when he seemed on the verge of victory.

Juno was dead or dying. Starkiller was disarmed and helpless.

Any rational being would at least consider Vader's offer.

The second thing Starkiller knew was: The best way to beat Darth Vader is to let him think he's won.

Thinking of Wedge Antilles, he said, "I make my own chances. "

With both hands he sent a wave of lightning into the sparking gash Juno had made in Vader's chest plate.

The Dark Lord staggered backward, transfixed by the unexpected retaliation. Starkiller leapt to his feet and followed him, keeping up the lightning attack and using telekinesis to rip Vader's lightsaber from his temporarily weakened fingers. Sheers of energy spread our across the wet rooftop. Smoke and steam rose up in a tortured spiral. The grating whine of Vader's respirator rook on a desperate edge.

He went down on one knee. Starkiller stood over him. Vader's lightsaber swept into his former apprentice's hand. The blade came to rest at his throat.

Credit: The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

Can we now move on from this ridiculous point of yours?

GM luke was also badly injured. Galen was only tired, like dooku.

First off Galen was also injuired and second off Luke should still be able to remove his exertion regardless of his injuiry. He can't negate his injuiry sure but that does not mean he can't remove his exertion which he should be able to do given he's literally the most powerful Force User ever and far more powerful than Count Dooku.

Furthermore I'm really beginning to question the validity of this given Dooku was tired after his fight with Anakin and Obi Wan in AOTC yet despite having ample opportuinity to do so does not recover his reserves with a mere wave of his hand.

Seriously?

Kenobi was clearly emotionally amped, cause he was fighting to protect someone (Luke). The same for galen, who was fighting for juno.

First off canon examples don't have relevance and second off this isn't displayed anywhere else in the SW universe. In the FOTJ example provided Luke literally thinks about Ben and Mara and advocates that love is a useful tool for the Light Side but literally can't even recover his reserves.

Kenobi being placed into a state of determination and being amped doesn't automatically mean love replenishes Force reserves.

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#31 Edited by Richard96 (5799 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

That's my point though. The fact that drawing off the Dark Side does not give them greater powers than Light Side users basically means it's not an amp.

You aren't getting the point. DS is indeed an amp: Zonakin was stronger than Jedi anakin, Sith dooku was stronger than jedi dooku etc etc. Simply this does not mean a DS user is necessarily stronger than an LS one. Example: Dooku was still yoda's inferior, despite having increased his power via DS.

That was because Vader wasn't expecting Marek's attack. And as for nothing implying he lost focus I literally posted a source which says otherwise.

But that was just a moment, a moment when he got ragdolled but then he regained his focus and continued the fight.

Nothing in this passage indicates it was referring to rage lmao.

But the text before clearly notes kenobi gave up to his rage. If he tried to contain his emotions, it seems logical he was trying also to contain his rage.

The first time Galen sees Vader. I've underlined the relevant part for you. All he does is question what Vader's plan is and swear not to give into anger and frustration. No indication of any form of an amp.

Fair enough. The game is completely different, cause Galen was anything but calm after he sees vader, but if the novel is the real continuity, eeh, fair enough. You convinced me it was not a rage amp, anyway. But the point of the love/focus amp remains.

That doesn't mean it isn't gameplay mechanics lmao. It's literally just a QTE segment where you press some buttons to finish the boss. The fact that it happens everytime doesn't make it canon. A similair thing happens with AT-ST's. For every AT-ST you fight you do the same move to finish it. That doesn't make that move canon lmao.

The fight with vader was the climax of the story, not just a random fight with an AT-ST. In the game the fight end with those moves, every single time. But ok, that does not matter cause the novel overrides it.

He tricks Vader into thinking he's won and hits him in the chest with Lightning:

So basically he lost and exploited the fact vader did not want to kill him...

With both hands he sent a wave of lightning into the sparking gash Juno had made in Vader's chest plate.

And also he exploited an injury juno made on vader. Indeed a fair victory!

First off Galen was also injuired

Really?

and second off Luke should still be able to remove his exertion regardless of his injuiry. He can't negate his injuiry sure but that does not mean he can't remove his exertion which he should be able to do given he's literally the most powerful Force User ever and far more powerful than Count Dooku.

And why? There is difference between being simply tired like dooku or galen or being in very bad shape like luke.

Furthermore I'm really beginning to question the validity of this given Dooku was tired after his fight with Anakin and Obi Wan in AOTC yet despite having ample opportuinity to do so does not recover his reserves with a mere wave of his hand.

But that was precisely an example of dooku washing away his fatigue in a second. You see in the movie dooku seem tired after having defeated anakin. Then yoda walks in, dooku turns and he is perfectly fine. Also, a tired dooku could not have given yoda a fight.

First off canon examples don't have relevance

How so? Legends and canon can be different continuities, but the basis of the lore are still shared.

and second off this isn't displayed anywhere else in the SW universe. In the FOTJ example provided Luke literally thinks about Ben and Mara and advocates that love is a useful tool for the Light Side but literally can't even recover his reserves.

Cause he was too in bad shape.

Kenobi being placed into a state of determination and being amped doesn't automatically mean love replenishes Force reserves.

Whether it replenishes the force reserves or not, it is still an amp. And galen was basically in the same emotional situation of kenobi. I can even agree galen fatigue was not completely washed away, but at least it should be reduced somehow.

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#32 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

'Killer stomps.

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#33 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96:

You aren't getting the point. DS is indeed an amp: Zonakin was stronger than Jedi anakin, Sith dooku was stronger than jedi dooku etc etc.

Both of these don't prove the DS is an amp though. Zonakin was stronger than Jedi Anakin because he releases his mental barriers when he goes over to the Dark Side and in the case of Dooku it's because of the extra training he recieved while apprenticed to Sidious.

Simply this does not mean a DS user is necessarily stronger than an LS one. Example: Dooku was still yoda's inferior, despite having increased his power via DS.

Maybe it's because the DS isn't an amp... Dude if using the DS amps Light Side Users (supposedly in the the case of Dooku and Anakin) then why does this dialogue exist in ESB:

Luke: Is the Dark Side stronger?

Yoda: No.

And you're contradicting yourself. You said using the DS does not make you stronger than if you were to use the LS but then brought up two contradictory examples (Dooku and Anakin). Regardless this point is uesless anyway given you conceded on the rage amped argument.

But that was just a moment, a moment when he got ragdolled but then he regained his focus and continued the fight.

And I never claimed otherwise...

I was poitning out the source which says Galen lost focus to counter the "Galen's rage amped him argument".

But the text before clearly notes kenobi gave up to his rage. If he tried to contain his emotions, it seems logical he was trying also to contain his rage.

What you're doing is baselessly speculating. All it's talking about is Kenobi's fear. Irregardless this was after a lengthy duel during which Kenobi had already tired which proves Kenobi cannot remove his rage on a whim like ROTJ Luke therefore making my point about ROTJ Luke's being the only person to remove themself from Force Rage totally viable.

Fair enough. The game is completely different, cause Galen was anything but calm after he sees vader, but if the novel is the real continuity, eeh, fair enough. You convinced me it was not a rage amp, anyway. But the point of the love/focus amp remains.

Nice to see I'm making progress.

The fight with vader was the climax of the story, not just a random fight with an AT-ST. In the game the fight end with those moves, every single time.

Doesn't really matter at what point in the story it happens. And anyway the novel is the one true canon path which you conceded to below so this is hardly relevant.

But ok, that does not matter cause the novel overrides it.

Yup.

So basically he lost and exploited the fact vader did not want to kill him...

Yeah he basically deliberately lost and exploited that. Regardless he still legitimately defeated Vader in The Cloning Tower earlier so this is hardly relevant.

And also he exploited an injury juno made on vader. Indeed a fair victory!

Once again not really relevant given he legitimately defeated Vader in The Cloning Tower. What's more is this doesn't prove anything as this was an exhausted Galen who had to do this.

Really?

Yeah he got tagged multiple times by his clones.

And why? There is difference between being simply tired like dooku or galen or being in very bad shape like luke.

I'd like to ask you a question in response. Why would Luke's injuiry be at all relevant to his ability to recover his reserves and negate exhaustion?

Regardless you also have the fact that Galen while only suffering from exhaustion earlier in the novel couldn't recover his reserves with a mere wave of his hand and had to stop to meditate instead.

But that was precisely an example of dooku washing away his fatigue in a second. You see in the movie dooku seem tired after having defeated anakin. Then yoda walks in, dooku turns and he is perfectly fine.

This is all baseless speculation.

Also, a tired dooku could not have given yoda a fight.

Based on? There's not really contradictory evidence given this is as of AOTC not ROTS where of course Yoda can batter Dooku via scaling from Anakin.

How so? Legends and canon can be different continuities, but the basis of the lore are still shared.

Fair enough.

Cause he was too in bad shape.

That's not an excuse though. As I pointed out before there's no evidence that injuiries should stop someone being able to recover their reserves. Furthermore you've yet to provide an example of love actually removing exhaustion.

Whether it replenishes the force reserves or not, it is still an amp.

This doesn't have any relevance though. If it doesn't negate exhaustion then it's irrelevant.

Furthermore I re-read over the statement and it's not really talking about any form of an amp lol. It's talking about Obi Wan's phsycological state and absolutely nowhere does it mention any increase in Obi Wan's Force Power.

In fact phsycological seems to be the most thematically relevant given the fight is literally filled with comparisons between Obi Wan and Maul's different states and how ultimately Obi Wan was better than Maul eg: "Look at what I've risen above".

Furthermore you're literally arguing that any Force User recieves an amp by focusing on a goal to save someone which is contradicted by numerous examples in universe of characters not being amped despite a loved one being in danger.

And galen was basically in the same emotional situation of kenobi. I can even agree galen fatigue was not completely washed away, but at least it should be reduced somehow.

Even if I take this argument as legit there's no way to quantify to what extent it reduces exhaustion so it's totally irrelevant.

Furthermore I'd say it doesn't by a lot given peak Galen can destroy a group of his clones whereas he thinks his master couldn't and would be easily overwhelmed.

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#34 Posted by Kilius (1624 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

Sorry to butt in but I take objection to this assertion:

Maybe it's because the DS isn't an amp... Dude if using the DS amps Light Side Users (supposedly in the the case of Dooku and Anakin) then why does this dialogue exist in ESB:

Luke: Is the Dark Side stronger?

Yoda: No.

Post what Yoda says after, because you are omitting key information: "Is the dark side stronger? No No quicker easier more seductive".

The dark side is a quick gateway to power. A light sider who suddenly starts using the dark side is obviously going to become more powerful than he was previously, it's not a hard concept to get around. Gillard also likens Anakin's transition from tier 8 to tier 9 as taking Force LSD, an obvious analogy to the dark side, as appose to "the right way", by mastering yogi, the light side equivalent. The difference is that Force LSD is cheating, because it's easier and requires less mastery and time, whereas the light side equivalent, that being yogi takes more time to acquire true genuine mastery.

Anakin's mental barriers prevented him from using his pent up rage, which are dark side emotions. If Anakin was always a dark sider this wouldn't be an amp, but for LS Anakin it is, Gillard even directly states it.

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#35 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius: Not really relevant given the novelization notes Galen wasn't rage amped and when he does indeed embrace his rage for a second he loses focus per the Prima Guide.

Regardless credit to the strong points and I'll concede on that particular point.

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#36 Posted by noah_ouellette (3722 posts) - - Show Bio

@in-sidiousvader: For real. Vader is a whole tier above Jerec.

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#37 Edited by noah_ouellette (3722 posts) - - Show Bio

Starkiller(Galen) stomps.

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#38 Posted by BreakOfDawn (2346 posts) - - Show Bio

Starkiller stomps, but Jerec and Vader aren't on the same level.