@greysentinel365: No we use him stating that the PT Jedi are faster, more powerful, in their full flower etc etc.
Quote him saying the Jedi are faster and not the choreography, please. You are, of course, welcome to claim that the speed translates to a queer representation of skill, but then I'd be a bit concerned by your ignoring of the fact that both Jinn and Kenobi use an energetic and fast form of combat, which is not a sign of superiority, is it?
Pointless as GL later states that the PT amped things up even further than the OT due to it being more powerful Jedi. GL documents this in one timeline here
Which is from a documentary pre-2005, so it doesn't render the clear distinction and Lucas' later distinction between "half-machine, cripple" ANH Vader and ESB/ROTJ Vader "pointless".
But at the same time he still wasn't being trained as an original Jedi would have been trained
Yes, because Lucas believes that "original Jedi" are defined by their combat abilities, doesn't he?
BILL MOYERS: We downloaded something from your Web site the other day and there you were talking about how you wanted the Jedi to be more than just fighters. You wanted them to be “spiritual,” but you didn’t say what you meant by that?
GEORGE LUCAS: Well, I — I guess they’re like ultimate father figures or negotiators. And — and at this point in time they are — they’re sent out to negotiate a — a deal.
(Excerpt from “The Phantom Menace”)
GEORGE LUCAS: They help to put forth answers where people are in the middle of a dispute.
(Excerpt from “The Phantom Menace”)
GEORGE LUCAS: They’re aren’t an aggressive Force at all. They try to — conflict resolution, I guess, is what you might — intergalactic therapists.
And Luke was obviously taught everything it means to be a Jedi and so it's directly comparing fighting abilities, isn't it?
And clarifies directly that despite the improvements made of the OT the PT is just better.
He doesn't note the improvements there. The improvements are noted a year later, and act as a retcon to the idea that Vader remained this "cripple" that was established prior to 2005, and later changed to solely refer to ANH Vader.
BoD this is sad.
My thoughts exactly.
Quote in context
The thing is, in IV, V, and VI, you didn’t really get to see real Jedi in action. To me, that was something that a lot of people would want to see. And of course, the other part is, where are the Jedi at this point? What are they? We’ve never seen one, really, except for Obi-Wan.
The idea was to establish Jedi as what they were, which is sort of peacekeepers who moved through the galaxy to settle disputes. They aren’t policemen, they aren’t soldiers; they’re mafia dons. They come in and sit down with the two different sides and say, “Okay, now we’re going to settle this.”
Clearly referring to establishing them as peacekeepers and such. And don't try and conflate the two. Lucas IN YOUR OWN QUOTE. States that the PT Jedi are superior. And then says
Quote in context
The thing is, in IV, V, and VI, you didn’t really get to see real Jedi in action. To me, that was something that a lot of people would want to see. And of course, the other part is, where are the Jedi at this point? What are they? We’ve never seen one, really, except for Obi-Wan.
The idea was to establish Jedi as what they were, which is sort of peacekeepers who moved through the galaxy to settle disputes. They aren’t policemen, they aren’t soldiers; they’re mafia dons. They come in and sit down with the two different sides and say, “Okay, now we’re going to settle this.”
Clearly referring to establishing them as peacekeepers and such. And don't try and conflate the two. Lucas IN YOUR OWN QUOTE. States that the PT Jedi are superior. And then says
And of course, the OTHER PART IS
And changes the subject to their peacekeeping role.
It's ironic that you claim that I'm not giving the context, when you completely missed mine. Don't worry; I'll help:
False. The statements you repeatedly use to cap Vader below Jinn use phrases such as these:
Never seen real Jedi's,
-
He then explicitly differentiates between his acceptance of "an old man vs. a half-man, half-machine" and the next film, even correcting his original implication that neither Ben nor Vader nor Luke were real Jedi:
But Jedi were supposed to be quite active.
And as of about a year ago, he also compared Ben Kenobi to the PT Jedi:
And of course, the other part is, where are the Jedi at this point? What are they? We’ve never seen one, really, except for Obi-Wan.
I wasn't comparing their combative abilities, I was comparing their nature as "real Jedi" and how it's a meaningless, arbitrary designation thrown around on SI to try and claim Lucas thinks they're inferior because Ben and Vader aren't Jedi.
First problem you have. Emperor exists. The guy who can handwave Vader.
You did read your own quote, correct?
George Lucas: I wanted to come up with an apprentice for the Emperor who was striking and tough. We hadn’t seen a Sith Lord before, except for Vader, of course
First, it's comparing the apprentices. Second, it's referring to CQC, which we've never seen on the Emperor's behalf. Third, Sidious is not the "enforcer" or "warrior" in the Original Trilogy: he's the mastermind pulling the strings, who - shocker - was also stated by Lucas to have surpassed the use of lightsabers, and thus isn't bound by this quote. Again; you're trying to nitpick the G-Canon authority you zealously cling to the moment he contradicts you.
Second, "striking" is one of the prerequisites. Referring to design.
Not what I was looking at, mate. Check out the word that follows it, and then the sentence afterwards, instead of skimming.
Third, George says the point of Maul was to make clear that while the Jedi are very powerful, the Sith are on that level.
Now let's ask the question shall we?
Why would he need to establish how very powerful the Jedi are and Sith are, to "establish the rules" and show "how Jedi and Sith fight and use lightsabers" in the "ultimate sword fight" if the OT exists?
It's almost like Lucas considers the OT to be "old men kids and half droids" and that the PT is better. And has consistently held that point the entire time.
Well done BoD. With your own quotes you have led us to the truth.
Fascinating conclusion. Let's examine it again through a less arbitrary lens, shall we?
1. George is discussing how he developed the villain for TPM, noting that he needs a villain who can show that "Jedi are all very powerful, but they're also vulnerable."
2. To this end, Lucas decides to focus on a Sith, using Vader as a reference point for how a Sith must be "striking and tough", a trait necessary for them to be an effective villain and a threat to the Jedi.
3. Lucas explains this choice of a Sith who is "striking and tough" - much like Vader - as the perfect tool to "convey" his intent that the Jedi can and are vulnerable to significant threats.
4. Lucas makes it abundantly clear that this quote is referring to a villain involved in combat and action, and to do so makes a direct comparison between Maul and Vader.
All in all, it is apparent to all - I'm sorry, most - that Lucas is directly comparing the two villains, noting that the intent of a Sith is to pose a challenge to the Jedi, and indeed, be capable of killing them, as he himself states:
I wanted to convey the idea that Jedi are all very powerful, but they’re also vulnerable — which is why I wanted to kill Qui-Gon
Now, combine this with existing EU material post-2000 that firmly establishes even pre-OT Vader's vast superiority to countless PT Jedi (including highly accomplished ones) and competing with TPM Maul as of his "cripple" stage, and your interpretation is lacking, to say the least.
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