Starkiller and Darth Vader vs Count Dooku and Obi Wan Kenobi

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Hey_Thatsmildlyadequate

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VS

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  • Everyone is at their peak
  • Starkiller is composite(Original+Clone feats)
  • Morals off
  • Good teamwork
  • Win by death only
  • Location is Theed Palace Hanger
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BreakOfDawn

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#2  Edited By BreakOfDawn

Team 1 in an amazing fight if they keep their distance and abuse the Force. Vader can edge out Dooku and eventually beat Kenobi via greater power, whilst SK holds off Dooku or eventually takes out Kenobi. Likelihood is that Vader will fight (and overpower) Kenobi in time whilst SK fights Dooku, then they team up on Dooku and overpower him.

Team 2 win pretty handily in sabers. Vader will automatically want to fight Kenobi, who can either beat him or at least stall him long enough for Dooku to take down SK, then they stomp him.

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Greysentinel365

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Either Dooku or Kenobi solo

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El_mago

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Sabers? Either Way

force? Team 1

all out hence force is where both members of team 1 are more attracted to use on combat they could win after a amazing fight

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Redshift_Bacon

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#5 Redshift_Bacon  Online

Force: Team 1. Its already been stated, IMO, Kenobi is a weak link here.

Sabers: Team 2 due to better feats, with Starkiller as the weak link here.

All Out: very tough call, but Im going to favor team 1 slightly. I think that the Force Advantage that Starkiller holds over Kenobi, and Vader over Dooku, trumps the marginal advantage that either has in lightsaber skill over said opponents.

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Kirkseven

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Team 2.

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SheevSmacker

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SheevSmacker

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darth vader solos

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Mike_Strike10

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Force: Team 1. Its already been stated, IMO, Kenobi is a weak link here.

Sabers: Team 2 due to better feats, with Starkiller as the weak link here.

All Out: very tough call, but Im going to favor team 1 slightly. I think that the Force Advantage that Starkiller holds over Kenobi, and Vader over Dooku, trumps the marginal advantage that either has in lightsaber skill over said opponents.

Agreed

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KillBilly

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#10  Edited By KillBilly

Either Starkiller or Vader solos.

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Greysentinel365

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@sheevsmacker: Both Vader and SK by extension are still locked below people like AotC Anakin and TPM Qui-Gon and Kenobi lol.

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Frozen

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#12 Frozen  Online

@greysentinel365: No they're not. This whole "muh sub TPM Kenobi Vader" has been debunked over and over. I have no idea why some people even push such a notion. Thankfully it's only a minority who do. Vader would wreck AoTC Anakin and TPM Jinn.

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Greysentinel365

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@frozen: It's never been debunked lol. The only person who's tried is BoD and all they did was post quotes that either reinforced or didn't at all contradict it.

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Frozen

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#14  Edited By Frozen  Online

@greysentinel365: It was debunked quite thoroughly here:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/darth-vader-and-luke-rotj-vs-darth-bane-and-darth--2077870/

The idea that Vader is below AOTC Anakin is quite frankly, ridiculous.

And saying BoD is the only person who has tried is incorrect. The "muh sub Jinn Vader" camp is a position only held by a small minority of the community on CV. It's really not taken seriously by most here, ergo it's not a particularly valid position.

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KillBilly

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#15  Edited By KillBilly

@greysentinel365 said:

@frozen: It's never been debunked lol. The only person who's tried is BoD and all they did was post quotes that either reinforced or didn't at all contradict it.

It's been debunked many times by many people over the years. The Resurrection comic is confirmed to be non canon which is lucky for Vader lowballers as the content within it only proves the disparity between Vader and such characters if we assume the doppleganger's powers are equivalent to the real thing. The Lucas quotes have been discussed and debunked more times than can be counted:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/starkiller-vs-darth-vader-knightfall-2052400/?page=1/

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/count-dooku-team-vs-starkiller-team-2114594/#js-message-16

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/rots-anakin-skywalker-vs-starkiller-1749855/?page=6#js-message-270

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Frozen

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#16 Frozen  Online

@killbilly: Thank you for that lol.

I dislike how this weird "muh sub Jinn" take occasionally rears its head.

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KillBilly

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#17  Edited By KillBilly

@frozen: It's just trolls from another forum who have deluded themselves into thinking they can make their biased and ridiculous takes mainstream if they repeat it often enough.

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Frozen

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#18 Frozen  Online

@killbilly: The SI forum right? Yeah it probably triggers them that CV doesn't cave to that take (CV has many weird positions, but I'm glad it never caves to that particular take. That one is just.... bad).

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Greysentinel365

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@killbilly: Aaaaaand none of those work.

BoD's quotes are out of context. Or not contradictory

C-Canon quotes are overidden

Using quote of Vader being Palps greatest servant during the Empire in no way apply to his dead ones etc etc etc. Stop trying to squirm around this

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KillBilly

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#20  Edited By KillBilly

@greysentinel365: C-Canon quotes are overidden

The C canon quotes aren't overriden because none of the G canon statements in existence contradict them. They are non specific statements that can be interpreted in a number of ways. Unfortunately for you, most people don't agree with the idea that we should assume interpretations that actively create contradictions within the continuity.

Using quote of Vader being Palps greatest servant during the Empire in no way apply to his dead ones etc etc etc. Stop trying to squirm around this

Lol. Vader's superiority to Sidious's other apprentices is the standard position of most people who create and contribute to continuity and is backed up by numerous third person sources.

Even Nick Gillard, who's opinions you and other member on Suspect Insight ( very fitting name btw ) wank off for his close association with Lucas believes SUITED Vader is a "Tier 9." when he believes that characters like Maul and Dooku are a "Tier 8." Yet Vader is supposedly below Qui Gon and TPM Kenobi...

OT: To the people in this thread, you should also be made aware that we have multiple third person quotes suggesting or outright stating Vader's superiority to the likes of Dooku as well:

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Numerous SW authors holds this position as well ( though they are not canon fact ):

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Stover, the author of Shatterpoint and the Revenge of the Sith novelization, has a Force using character who sensed the power of Vader, Mace and Kar Vastor believing that Vader is far more powerful than Mace Windu and Kar Vastor who, according to Gillard, is above the likes of Dooku as he is a "Tier 8 bordering on Tier 9" whereas Dooku is only a "Tier 8."

"Vader was as tall as Vastor had been, but probably massed a good twenty kilos less. He wasn't physically impressive in the same way; no musculature was visible under the black armor.

It didn't matter. There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor somehow to be pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.

The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor." - Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight

-

"Vastor was younger, stronger, faster, and immensely more powerful, and he wielded weapons that could not be harmed by the Jedi blade. Mace couldn't win such a battle on his best day" - Shatterpoint.

-

"When I started, I figured that a youngling is a leve one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight, bordering on nine. Anakin is nine." - Nick Gillard.

-

"Dooku & Maul are 8, but there is a huge difference inside the numbers themselves. It's not about how well they fight, it's about how well they learned." -Nick Gallard

Gillard himself confirms that post-suit Vader remains a "Tier 9."

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BreakOfDawn

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#21  Edited By BreakOfDawn

@greysentinel365 said:

@frozen: It's never been debunked lol. The only person who's tried is BoD and all they did was post quotes that either reinforced or didn't at all contradict it.

Did I, now?

If you'll forgive me for copying and pasting our last dance on this:

And unless Lucas believes Jinn > Vader >>> SK ~ notable Council members, this is a very queer chain given his other statements about this being the prime of the Jedi.

This doesn't contradict his other statements at all. All he says here is that he got better in ep 5.

False. The statements you repeatedly use to cap Vader below Jinn use phrases such as these:

Never seen real Jedi's,

Old men,

Crippled half droid half men

In several of them, the contingent for Vader being below TPM Jinn is reliant on the idea that he is crippled, and that he's a half-droid, half-man. This is explicitly rejected in the quote I posted:

By the time we got to the first light-saber battle, we realized we weren’t going to be able to do much. And so I accepted it was an old man vs. a half-man, half-machine

He then explicitly differentiates between his acceptance of "an old man vs. a half-man, half-machine" and the next film, even correcting his original implication that neither Ben nor Vader nor Luke were real Jedi:

But Jedi were supposed to be quite active.

And as of about a year ago, he also compared Ben Kenobi to the PT Jedi:

And of course, the other part is, where are the Jedi at this point? What are they? We’ve never seen one, really, except for Obi-Wan.

And also likens Maul to Vader:

I wanted to come up with an apprentice for the Emperor who was striking and tough. We hadn’t seen a Sith Lord before, except for Vader, of course.

So no, there are clear contradictions between what Lucas said 20 years ago and what he has said since.

Which is true in 1980 and true now. George isn't talking about some updated view here he's cementing his previous one.

Incorrect. He's providing context to what he said previously. Literally the only part of the original quotes that still applies is about the PT Jedi being faster and more energetic, which given that Ataru is literally about being fast and energetic, isn't surprising.

Because he already did hire those better sword fighters for ESB and despite that when he got to the prequels? Still said PT Jedi were better.

Yet again, he deliberately differentiates between ANH and ESB. Hell, he all but confirms that the "cripple" quote was an excuse because of the limited potential for fight scenes in the first film. This is outright mitigated by follow up films.

The sub-Jinn Vader camp have had around 15 years to prove that Lucas still considers Vader sub-Jinn, and you've yet to provide any evidence from the year 2000 onward (when there were huge changes in the lore as opposed to what came before, particularly post-TPM) that Lucas still holds to it.

One final thing: I find it quite amusing that the sub-Jinn Vader camp clings so feverously to the concept of "context", yet it fails to acknowledge the concept of time, advertising, and Lucas himself changing his mind. If you'd like, I can quite easily provide about 5 Chee (the camp's other top authority) quotes for him changing his mind on the fly and contradicting himself numerous times. So again: prove that the man who was heavily involved and helped create a game where Vader clearly scales above one of the "Jedi in [her] prime", permitted comics and media depicting Vader blitzing and stomping accomplished PT Jedi in the same year as ROTS was released (when he was only just beginning to lift the "guardrails" surrounding the Dark Times period, permitted a comic in 2001 to depict an evenly fought match between TPM Maul and the weakest duelling iteration of Vader, and has explicitly distinguished between "cripple" (ANH) Vader and "active" (ESB/ROTJ) Vader...still believes that Vader is sub-Jinn.

Frankly, this fanatical obsession with Lucas' 1999/2000 comments which don't even line up with continuity (which in turn had to line up with George's vision and was quite frequently required to run ideas involving characters such as Vader by him) reeks of denial and double standards, and it's fairly pathetic.

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KillBilly

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#22  Edited By KillBilly

@frozen: I hear it's basically dead at this point. Given the kind of arguments and the community they fostered on there ( or rather, the lack thereof ), they should have expected that.

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TheVivas

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Vader being sub-Jinn lmao. Imagine complaining about out of context and contradictory quotes while parading around that headcanon

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Greysentinel365

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@killbilly:

The C canon quotes aren't overriden because none of the G canon statements in existence contradict them. They are non specific statements that can be interpreted in a number of ways.

No and no.

Lol. Vader's superiority to Sidious's other apprentices is the standard position of most people who create and contribute to continuity and is backed up by numerous third person sources:

1. Refers to pre-suit Vader

2. Refers to the Empire period.

3. Refers to the Empire period

4. Barlow is not an authority

5. IU character opinion. Character isn't that knowledgeable to begin with. Overidden by G-Canon

6. Gillard states it's his own opinion. Gillard is only given authority by the fact that the levels are from Lucas and Nick is the mouthpiece. And G and made his stance on suit Vader very clear.

You may now commence squirming.

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El_mago

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#25  Edited By El_mago

@frozen: CV and 95% of the entire forums on other sites believes Vader is above Dooku only people that believe that its sub Jinn its suspect insight forums...

this site is safe for that nonsense you may just ignore people propagating that argument

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#26 Frozen  Online

@el_mago: Vader vs Dooku is debatable. In Legends, it's a great fight and could go either way. In canon, Vader wins without issue.

And yeah, CV is safe from the "sub Jinn" nonsense. I'm thankful that horrible take hasn't taken off here lol. It usually gets snuffed out pretty quickly.

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#27 Frozen  Online
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KillBilly

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#28  Edited By KillBilly

@greysentinel365: No and no.

Yes and yes. Your feelings can't change reality:

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Just to preempt the likely response from you in order to save us both some time, I'll just be posting our previous responses to each other for people to read and decide for themselves who's logic makes more sense to them:

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The alternative in question being that the "real Jedi" quote is in reference to the inherent limitations of all of the major players in the OT ( Luke's youth and inexperience, Kenobi's old age, Vader's prosthetics ) as opposed to a character who hunts down PT era Jedi as a hobby not being on the level of PT era Jedi.

1. Refers to pre-suit Vader

Lol. Please explain to me why a quote referencing Darth Vader is talking about Anakin in RotS. This should be fun.

2. Refers to the Empire period.

3. Refers to the Empire period

Based on what are we excluding all the other servants the Emperor has had ( outside of your bias of course ).

4. Barlow is not an authority

Thank you for admitting they disagree with your interpretation.

5. IU character opinion. Character isn't that knowledgeable to begin with. Overidden by G-Canon

The character in question was literally around all of the individuals he is comparing and sensed their power. There is literally no reason to doubt his statement outside of a refusal to accept the truth.

6. Gillard states it's his own opinion. Gillard is only given authority by the fact that the levels are from Lucas and Nick is the mouthpiece. And G and made his stance on suit Vader very clear.

Thank you for admitting they disagree with your interpretation. Also, I'd love to hear which specific placements George Lucas actually signed off on since we're apparently now ignoring the ones we don't like.

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Frozen

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#29 Frozen  Online

KillBilly and BoD solo.

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BreakOfDawn

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@frozen said:

KillBilly and BoD solo.

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nassergrant19

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@sheevsmacker: Both Vader and SK by extension are still locked below people like AotC Anakin and TPM Qui-Gon and Kenobi lol.

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Greysentinel365

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#32  Edited By Greysentinel365

@breakofdawn: Happy to pick up where we left off! You're better than Billy up there at least.

Never seen real Jedi's,

Old men,

Crippled half droid half men

No we use him stating that the PT Jedi are faster, more powerful, in their full flower etc etc.

But Jedi were supposed to be quite active.

Pointless as GL later states that the PT amped things up even further than the OT due to it being more powerful Jedi. GL documents this in one timeline here

We kept improving the sword fighting because the assumption was that Luke was getting to be a better fighter, he was learning more but he still. But at the same time he still wasn't being trained as an original Jedi would have been trained

....

Then when we moved to the prequel where ther were Jedi in their full flower and fighting as they were in the past well trained jedi we had to make the fights much much faster, much more sophisticated and much more aggresives in terms of the way they're fought. And we continued that

And clarifies directly that despite the improvements made of the OT the PT is just better.

And as of about a year ago Lucas, he also compared Ben to the PT Jedi

BoD this is sad.

Quote in context

The thing is, in IV, V, and VI, you didn’t really get to see real Jedi in action. To me, that was something that a lot of people would want to see. And of course, the other part is, where are the Jedi at this point? What are they? We’ve never seen one, really, except for Obi-Wan.

The idea was to establish Jedi as what they were, which is sort of peacekeepers who moved through the galaxy to settle disputes. They aren’t policemen, they aren’t soldiers; they’re mafia dons. They come in and sit down with the two different sides and say, “Okay, now we’re going to settle this.”

https://naboonews.wordpress.com/2019/05/25/george-lucas-looks-back-on-some-of-star-wars-the-phantom-menaces-key-scenes/

Clearly referring to establishing them as peacekeepers and such. And don't try and conflate the two. Lucas IN YOUR OWN QUOTE. States that the PT Jedi are superior. And then says

And of course, the OTHER PART IS

And changes the subject to their peacekeeping role.

And also likens Maul to Vader:

Sigh. Quote in context

George Lucas: I wanted to come up with an apprentice for the Emperor who was striking and tough. We hadn’t seen a Sith Lord before, except for Vader, of course. I wanted to convey the idea that Jedi are all very powerful, but they’re also vulnerable — which is why I wanted to kill Qui-Gon. That is to say, “Hey, these guys aren’t Superman.” These guys are people who are vulnerable, just like every other person.

We needed to establish that, but at the same time, we wanted the ultimate sword fight, because they were all very good. It sort of predisposes the sword fight between Anakin and Obi-Wan later on. There’s real purpose to it. You have to establish the rules and then stick with them. The scene illustrates just how Jedi and Sith fight and use lightsabers.

https://naboonews.wordpress.com/2019/05/25/george-lucas-looks-back-on-some-of-star-wars-the-phantom-menaces-key-scenes/

First problem you have. Emperor exists. The guy who can handwave Vader.

Second, "striking" is one of the prerequisites. Referring to design.

Third, George says the point of Maul was to make clear that while the Jedi are very powerful, the Sith are on that level.

Now let's ask the question shall we?

Why would he need to establish how very powerful the Jedi are and Sith are, to "establish the rules" and show "how Jedi and Sith fight and use lightsabers" in the "ultimate sword fight" if the OT exists?

It's almost like Lucas considers the OT to be "old men kids and half droids" and that the PT is better. And has consistently held that point the entire time.

Well done BoD. With your own quotes you have led us to the truth.

Yet again, he deliberately differentiates between ANH and ESB. Hell, he all but confirms that the "cripple" quote was an excuse because of the limited potential for fight scenes in the first film. This is outright mitigated by follow up films.

George still states the PT is above the improvements in RotJ and ESB anyway. In your own article and in the video I posted. You've contradicted none of my points and reinforced them along the way.

Have a nice day.

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KillBilly

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#33  Edited By KillBilly

Myself and BoD beating back the cancer of SI in 2021, colorized:

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Grey trying to make these arguments outside of SI ( SI alt account pictured on the far right ):

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Necromancer76

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Ah, the return of Vader < Jinn. My favorite joke.

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nassergrant19

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Ah, the return of Vader < Jinn. My favorite joke.

Foreal like who’d actually believe that lol.

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KillBilly

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#36  Edited By KillBilly

@nassergrant19 said:
@necromancer76 said:

Ah, the return of Vader < Jinn. My favorite joke.

Foreal like who’d actually believe that lol.

Tbh, I don't think even they actually believe it. They're just testing the waters in order to see what they can get away with at this point. Put forward something really stupid and you might be able to get away with pushing less stupid stuff that is still wrong but not quite as laughable by comparison.

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Eredin12

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Team 1 stomps

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BreakOfDawn

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#38  Edited By BreakOfDawn

@greysentinel365: No we use him stating that the PT Jedi are faster, more powerful, in their full flower etc etc.

Quote him saying the Jedi are faster and not the choreography, please. You are, of course, welcome to claim that the speed translates to a queer representation of skill, but then I'd be a bit concerned by your ignoring of the fact that both Jinn and Kenobi use an energetic and fast form of combat, which is not a sign of superiority, is it?

Pointless as GL later states that the PT amped things up even further than the OT due to it being more powerful Jedi. GL documents this in one timeline here

Which is from a documentary pre-2005, so it doesn't render the clear distinction and Lucas' later distinction between "half-machine, cripple" ANH Vader and ESB/ROTJ Vader "pointless".

But at the same time he still wasn't being trained as an original Jedi would have been trained

Yes, because Lucas believes that "original Jedi" are defined by their combat abilities, doesn't he?

BILL MOYERS: We downloaded something from your Web site the other day and there you were talking about how you wanted the Jedi to be more than just fighters. You wanted them to be “spiritual,” but you didn’t say what you meant by that?

GEORGE LUCAS: Well, I — I guess they’re like ultimate father figures or negotiators. And — and at this point in time they are — they’re sent out to negotiate a — a deal.

(Excerpt from “The Phantom Menace”)

GEORGE LUCAS: They help to put forth answers where people are in the middle of a dispute.

(Excerpt from “The Phantom Menace”)

GEORGE LUCAS: They’re aren’t an aggressive Force at all. They try to — conflict resolution, I guess, is what you might — intergalactic therapists.

And Luke was obviously taught everything it means to be a Jedi and so it's directly comparing fighting abilities, isn't it?

And clarifies directly that despite the improvements made of the OT the PT is just better.

He doesn't note the improvements there. The improvements are noted a year later, and act as a retcon to the idea that Vader remained this "cripple" that was established prior to 2005, and later changed to solely refer to ANH Vader.

BoD this is sad.

My thoughts exactly.

Quote in context

The thing is, in IV, V, and VI, you didn’t really get to see real Jedi in action. To me, that was something that a lot of people would want to see. And of course, the other part is, where are the Jedi at this point? What are they? We’ve never seen one, really, except for Obi-Wan.

The idea was to establish Jedi as what they were, which is sort of peacekeepers who moved through the galaxy to settle disputes. They aren’t policemen, they aren’t soldiers; they’re mafia dons. They come in and sit down with the two different sides and say, “Okay, now we’re going to settle this.”

Clearly referring to establishing them as peacekeepers and such. And don't try and conflate the two. Lucas IN YOUR OWN QUOTE. States that the PT Jedi are superior. And then says

Quote in context

The thing is, in IV, V, and VI, you didn’t really get to see real Jedi in action. To me, that was something that a lot of people would want to see. And of course, the other part is, where are the Jedi at this point? What are they? We’ve never seen one, really, except for Obi-Wan.

The idea was to establish Jedi as what they were, which is sort of peacekeepers who moved through the galaxy to settle disputes. They aren’t policemen, they aren’t soldiers; they’re mafia dons. They come in and sit down with the two different sides and say, “Okay, now we’re going to settle this.”

Clearly referring to establishing them as peacekeepers and such. And don't try and conflate the two. Lucas IN YOUR OWN QUOTE. States that the PT Jedi are superior. And then says

And of course, the OTHER PART IS

And changes the subject to their peacekeeping role.

It's ironic that you claim that I'm not giving the context, when you completely missed mine. Don't worry; I'll help:

False. The statements you repeatedly use to cap Vader below Jinn use phrases such as these:

Never seen real Jedi's,

-

He then explicitly differentiates between his acceptance of "an old man vs. a half-man, half-machine" and the next film, even correcting his original implication that neither Ben nor Vader nor Luke were real Jedi:

But Jedi were supposed to be quite active.

And as of about a year ago, he also compared Ben Kenobi to the PT Jedi:

And of course, the other part is, where are the Jedi at this point? What are they? We’ve never seen one, really, except for Obi-Wan.

I wasn't comparing their combative abilities, I was comparing their nature as "real Jedi" and how it's a meaningless, arbitrary designation thrown around on SI to try and claim Lucas thinks they're inferior because Ben and Vader aren't Jedi.

First problem you have. Emperor exists. The guy who can handwave Vader.

You did read your own quote, correct?

George Lucas: I wanted to come up with an apprentice for the Emperor who was striking and tough. We hadn’t seen a Sith Lord before, except for Vader, of course

First, it's comparing the apprentices. Second, it's referring to CQC, which we've never seen on the Emperor's behalf. Third, Sidious is not the "enforcer" or "warrior" in the Original Trilogy: he's the mastermind pulling the strings, who - shocker - was also stated by Lucas to have surpassed the use of lightsabers, and thus isn't bound by this quote. Again; you're trying to nitpick the G-Canon authority you zealously cling to the moment he contradicts you.

Second, "striking" is one of the prerequisites. Referring to design.

Not what I was looking at, mate. Check out the word that follows it, and then the sentence afterwards, instead of skimming.

Third, George says the point of Maul was to make clear that while the Jedi are very powerful, the Sith are on that level.

Now let's ask the question shall we?

Why would he need to establish how very powerful the Jedi are and Sith are, to "establish the rules" and show "how Jedi and Sith fight and use lightsabers" in the "ultimate sword fight" if the OT exists?

It's almost like Lucas considers the OT to be "old men kids and half droids" and that the PT is better. And has consistently held that point the entire time.

Well done BoD. With your own quotes you have led us to the truth.

Fascinating conclusion. Let's examine it again through a less arbitrary lens, shall we?

1. George is discussing how he developed the villain for TPM, noting that he needs a villain who can show that "Jedi are all very powerful, but they're also vulnerable."

2. To this end, Lucas decides to focus on a Sith, using Vader as a reference point for how a Sith must be "striking and tough", a trait necessary for them to be an effective villain and a threat to the Jedi.

3. Lucas explains this choice of a Sith who is "striking and tough" - much like Vader - as the perfect tool to "convey" his intent that the Jedi can and are vulnerable to significant threats.

4. Lucas makes it abundantly clear that this quote is referring to a villain involved in combat and action, and to do so makes a direct comparison between Maul and Vader.

All in all, it is apparent to all - I'm sorry, most - that Lucas is directly comparing the two villains, noting that the intent of a Sith is to pose a challenge to the Jedi, and indeed, be capable of killing them, as he himself states:

I wanted to convey the idea that Jedi are all very powerful, but they’re also vulnerable — which is why I wanted to kill Qui-Gon

Now, combine this with existing EU material post-2000 that firmly establishes even pre-OT Vader's vast superiority to countless PT Jedi (including highly accomplished ones) and competing with TPM Maul as of his "cripple" stage, and your interpretation is lacking, to say the least.

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decaf_wizard

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Ah, the return of Vader < Jinn. My favorite joke.

I mean, anyone who belives that drivel is beyond saving

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decaf_wizard

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#40  Edited By decaf_wizard

@killbilly: Grey's arguments are considered out there even on SI

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KillBilly

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@killbilly: Grey's arguments are considered out there even on SI

Well, that's something at least.

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decaf_wizard

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@decaf_wizard said:

@killbilly: Grey's arguments are considered out there even on SI

Well, that's something at least.

Granted as a Kun fan, im not viewed as much better. But at least we have a killer RT

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KillBilly

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#43  Edited By KillBilly

@decaf_wizard said:
@killbilly said:
@decaf_wizard said:

@killbilly: Grey's arguments are considered out there even on SI

Well, that's something at least.

Granted as a Kun fan, im not viewed as much better. But at least we have a killer RT

Very true. I've always had a soft sport for Kun, partially due to your status as a fellow Grievous fan. :P

Though AP's shocking lack of charisma makes it difficult for Kun arguments to really get off the ground.

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decaf_wizard

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@killbilly: Meh, at least he bothered to make the RT on SI. I just provided feats

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KillBilly

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Aristeaus

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Force: Team 1. Its already been stated, IMO, Kenobi is a weak link here.

Sabers: Team 2 due to better feats, with Starkiller as the weak link here.

All Out: very tough call, but Im going to favor team 1 slightly. I think that the Force Advantage that Starkiller holds over Kenobi, and Vader over Dooku, trumps the marginal advantage that either has in lightsaber skill over said opponents.

Depends on when you think Peak Kenobi is.

ANH Kenobi is pretty much the epitome of force defense. His sabers had diminished in exile, but his connection to the force grew exponentially.

Where as ROTS Kenobi was ragdolled by Dooku.

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Redshift_Bacon

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#47  Edited By Redshift_Bacon  Online

@Aristeaus: ROTS Kenobi being ragdolled by Dooku can also be considered as an experience mismatch. Dooku has spent decades learning, training, and sparring in the Jedi Order, so he knows exactly when to take advantage of an opponent. Meanwhile, ANH Kenobi had a lot more Wisdom, was already very aware of how Anakin/Vader uses the Force, plus Vader was being extremely cautious due to his previous defeat.

I do believe ANH Kenobi is stronger in the force, but Im not sure if its a significant or marginal growth, and Starkiller has better feats + Force Lightning. I dont remember Kenobi ever utilizing Tutaminis, and definitely not against an opponent who can use Force Lightning to the same extent as Starkiller.

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Not a bad CaV, good posts from both sides, although BoD is clearly winning. Let’s see what Grey can come up with that’ll help him turn the tables of those seemingly one-sided debate so far. T4V

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Force: Team 1. Its already been stated, IMO, Kenobi is a weak link here.

Sabers: Team 2 due to better feats, with Starkiller as the weak link here.

All Out: very tough call, but Im going to favor team 1 slightly. I think that the Force Advantage that Starkiller holds over Kenobi, and Vader over Dooku, trumps the marginal advantage that either has in lightsaber skill over said opponents.

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#50  Edited By Cergic

@thevivas:

What are you talking about? This entire thread became some sort of cluttered quotefest filled with acronyms that few actually care to get into. Such a drag to read.