Star Wars Council Level Round 1: (Emperordmb vs Sithrevenant)

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@emperordmb

Kas'im

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Perk: Training with PROXY

For those looking to get the edge over their opponent using knowledge and practice. One day before the battle your character will now have a one hour training session with the droid PROXY. PROXY will be mimicking your opponents style and moves. The only problem with PROXY is that he doesn't mimic their style perfectly, so your character has an idea of what they are going up against but hasn't seen the real deal yet.

VS

@sithrevenant

Meetra Surik

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Perk: Morals off

Morals are so pesky aren't they? This perk is for those wanting to make their character more willing to kill. Now your character will never hold back from a killing blow and will use unjedi-like means to gain the upper hand. This does not make your character a darksider and does not increase a characters hatred or rage.

Match Rules

No preparation

No knowledge of the opponent (if your characters know each other in the lore then all knowledge of each other will be erased and it will be as though they are meeting for the first time)

Morals on although fighting seriously

Standard gear

Fight to the death

This battle takes place onboard the Invisible Hand

No Caption Provided

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TheMuser

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T4V

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Emperordmb

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SithRevenant

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@emperordmb: Certainly, thank you.

Allow me some time to write it up.

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DarkDefender

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#7  Edited By DarkDefender
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#8  Edited By Greysentinel365

@darkdefender: ooooh so that's where that comment went

Sorry that was meant for a different thread

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DarkDefender

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echostarlord117

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#10  Edited By echostarlord117

T4V

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Brightsteel

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T4V, even though I know how this is going to end.

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Emperordmb

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T4V, even though I know how this is going to end.

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WollfMyth209

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T4V.

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SithRevenant

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#14  Edited By SithRevenant

@emperordmb:

The most immediate elephant in the room here is the fact that Kas'im is a noted to maintain a flawless technique and working mastery of every aspect of lightsaber combat. Indeed, highly impressive accolades for the Sith blademaster. Meetra Surik however is not lacking in this regard, she has a working mastery of all forms of lightsaber combat as well, even including more esoteric techniques.

Meetra Surik is one of the greatest among many Jedi whom due to numerous wars become master combatants, highly skilled duelists capable of combating Sith:

The many wars of this era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat. Some become masters on the battlefield; others become highly skilled duelists, able to battle dark Jedi and Sith in single combat.

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Meetra Surik remembers her former knowledge of lightsaber combat from the Mandalorian Wars and is then further tutored in the lightsaber combat forms Shii-Cho, Makashi & Soresu by the Sith Lord Darth Traya:

"It[Shii-Cho] is simple, and it's simplicity is strength. It allows focus, a slightly improved chance of connecting with one's opponent. It has no other advantages or disadvantages - it is an effective form to fall back on when no other form will do." - Traya

-Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

"Ah -a technique[Makashi] that helps one resist the Force attacks of an enemy, and is also excellent for lightsaber combat. It does more damage, but it leaves you vulnerable to other attacks. Use it against others wielding the Force or lightsabers... but not against anyone else." - Traya

-Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

"A… defensive technique[Soresu]. But effective. Use it if you do not wish to be hit, or if you are facing many opponents with blasters. With a lightsaber blade and enough skill in deflection, it is an excellent offense against blasters, but in other situations, it merely delays the inevitable." - Traya

-Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Throughout her journey she achieves proficiency and mastery in multiple forms, including the ultimate discipline of Form VII: Juyo:

"Perhaps exile has been good to you indeed - it has certainly not dulled your instincts, nor the speed at which you learn." - Zez-Kai Ell

-Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Whether in friendship or in battle, you learn the lightsaber stance Ataru after meeting with Zez-Kai Ell. This stance is perfect for one-on-one battles, like the duel you just survived.

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

"Hmmm... I don't know how you learnt that so quickly. Still, your form is sloppy. Keep practicing to tighten it up, and you'll be fine." - Vrook Lamar

-Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Whether you ally with Jedi Master Vrook or fight him, you learn a new lightsaber form, Shien, during your encounter.

-Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

"Excellent! I can see there is still much good in you." - Lonna Vash

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

"Excellent! I'm impressed with how quickly you've mastered this form. I always knew you were gifted." - Kavar

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

"There are times when you want to overwhelm a particular opponent quickly. For these situations, use the Juyo form. Do not get carried away using this form, particularly against Dark Jedi. The ferocity required to use this form leaves one vulnerable to enemy Force powers." - Kavar

-Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control the ultimate discipline known as Form VII.

-Source: Insider #62: Fightsaber

So Meetra learns and masters numerous other forms. However through extensive training sessions with Visas Marr and 'Kreia', Meetra Surik eventually achieves knowledge in combat equal to that of 'Kreia'. A master of kinetic combat, Trákata and a proficient user of all seven lightsaber forms, by the Sith Lord's own admission:

"There is nothing more for me to teach you. You know as much of battle as I." - Traya

- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Darth Traya, Master of Kinetic Combat

-Source: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Traya uses vast telekinetic powers to weild a trio of lightsabers.

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3730549-0557460590-37290.png

One other critical lesson Traya imparted, was the mindset of not relying on any one form, a very ambidextrous train of thought that could prepare Meetra further for any sudden changes in the blademaster's form:

The Jedi practice many forms, many styles of lightsaber combat. It is good to know them, but not to rely on them."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Most impressive is that Drew Karpyshyn has implied the Exile is a peer of, if not superior to, novel!Revan in dueling skill:

"This is similar to my last answer - the Exile is probably more skilled at dueling[compared to Revan]."

Source: http://i.imgur.com/zp6L2VW.png?1

Despite all of this, Kas'im still of course maintains a technical mastery of lightsaber combat superior to Surik's. What he does not have a counter for is the fact that Meetra is capable of duplicating, and even mastering, his numerous forms in the midst of combat.

Enough of accolades however, Meetra Surik has a vast array of lightsaber feats as well. Infact she runs a two-part marathon of sorts, she starts by defeating Atris via lightsaber prowess:

"Atris has openly embraced the dark side and has taken the moniker of Darth Traya. You confront her in her meditation chamber, where it's revealed that Traya has gathered dozens of Sith holocrons."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

As a former member of the Jedi Council, Darth Traya [Atris] is a master of lightsaber combat. In addition, she commands an array of potent dark side powers like Drain Life and Force Storm.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

Atris' pride is no match for the Jedi Exile's lightsaber prowess.

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Meetra Surik, immediately after defeating Atris, returns to Citadel Station:

"When you return to Telos, an army of Sith invade Citadel Station."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

"Surviving the numerous battles against dark Jedi and Sith commandos requires controlled aggression and endurance."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prime Official Game Guide

"The Sith's numbers seem limitless..."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

"How can you hope to defeat a force so vast and powerful?"

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Meetra Surik with Mandalore the Preserver and Visas Marr then boards the Ravager:

"Placing the cores won't be easy thanks to the hordes of Sith commandos and officers in your way"

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

"The Lord of Hunger is protected by several chambers full of Dark Jedi and Sith heavy troopers. You must defeat these minions to reach the bridge and challenge Darth Nihilus himself."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prime Official Game Guide

"Several large rooms lie between you and the Bridge, and most of them are full of enemies."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

"Darth Nihilus is so corrupted by the dark side that his very speech causes pain and death to all who hear it. He wields a red lightsaber in battle, and he readily utilizes Force powers to kill, especially Drain Life. [Visas asks how she may best help to destroy Nihilus, the Exile who] tells her to block the flow of power Nihilus absorbs from the Ravager"

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

Amazingly dark and devastating powers are the purview of some of the greatest Sith Lords of the Knights of the Old Republic era.

Average beings stand no chance of stopping these ultra-powerful monsters of the dark side. Only the greatest heroes can ultimately defeat them.

-Power Beyond Belief: Using Ultra-Powerful Sith Lords in Saga Edition

Although Darth Nihilus managed to stun the Exile, he was unprepared for the devotion of his former pupil Marr to the young woman. Marr tried to exchange her life for that of the Exile, giving the former Jedi time to recover. Together, they confronted Darth Nihilus. The Sith Lord was no match for their combined might, and he fell in battle.

-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Meetra Surik then travels to Malachor V, she is now a powerhouse of destruction:

...after all that you've been through, your character[Meetra Surik] should be a powerhouse of destruction.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

She is soon assaulted by packs of massive Storm Beasts:

"More dangerous still are the storm beasts—massive humanoid brutes twisted into monstrous forms by the corrupting energy of Malachor V."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

"You also find a score of storm beasts that attack you in small teams."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

"Beyond the tunnels is the storm beast pen, a massive gorge where the formidable greater storm beast prowls."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

"Largest of his breed, the greater storm beast possesses immense strength and toughness... Even a well-armored sentinel can find themselves pulverized after a few blows from the greater storm beast."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

Makes her way to the Trayus Academy, and has to relentlessly battle her way through a legion of elite Sith:

"Trayus Academy is the home of those Jedi who have succumbed to the dark side taint of Malachor V. To reach the structure's core, where Darth Sion and Kreia await, you must face a legion of elite Sith single-handedly. Skills and subtlety may have served you well previously, but here there is no substitute for raw destructive power. Only by fighting your way through the Sith's strongest guardians can you earn the right to confront your nemesis."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

"Constant battles with numerous Sith assassins are the rule here"

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

"These Sith Assassins are the most elite among the empire."

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

"These surreptitious butchers specialize in practical modes of Jedi execution."

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

"The most elite of these assassins are the Bladeborn - Sith blademasters."

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

"A Sith offshoot dedicated to sword mastery, this tremor sword was given to masters of blades for surviving no less than ten encounters with Lightsaber wielding opponents."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

This wing of the academy is also teeming with Sith.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

The majestic halls of the Trayus Crescent are thronged with Sith and not much else.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

Trayus Academy's eastern wing is a warren of cramped rooms packed with alert Sith.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prime Official Game Guide

The Jedi Knight Meetra Surik finally faces the veteran Sith marauder Darth Sion an ultra-powerful Sith Lord, defeating him several times:

"Perhaps the most rage-filled Sith Lord yet encountered, Darth Sion is a shattered mesh of flesh and bone. Sion is in constant pain, but his body is held together by will and fury. He is a True, Immortal manifestation of the Dark Side of the Force. A feared Lightsaber Assassin, Sion's chaotic wrath is directed towards Sith and Jedi alike."

-Star Wars Insider: 88

"Few Sith Lords hold mastery over pain or hatred like Darth Sion, Lord of Pain. His visage is terrible to behold: a decomposing body held together by dark side energies channeled by Sion himself, sustaining his life through the Force, powered by anger and hatred. He is in eternal pain but endures it as a small price for apparent immortality. However, in the end, despite his anger, hatred, and manipulation of dark side energy, the Lord of Pain could not defeat the Jedi Exile."

-Star Wars Insider: 88

Average beings stand no chance of stopping these ultra-powerful monsters of the dark side. Only the greatest heroes may ultimately defeat them.

- Power Beyond Belief

Darth Sion has vanquished many Jedi foes.

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Meetra Surik then faces and kills Darth Traya, an ultra-powerful Sith whom sits upon a colossal geyser of Dark Side energy, due to her skills with a lightsaber:

The nexus of Trayus Academy, the core is a clawlike altar built over a colossal geyser of dark side energy. It is here that you face your ultimate battle and fulfill your destiny.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat.

-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Traya uses vast telekinetic powers to wield a trio of lightsabers against her, but she is ultimately killed by the person she considered her greatest disciple.

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Any attempt to immobilize or debilitate her with Force powers will probably fail, so stick with melee combat..

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

Average beings stand no chance of stopping these ultra-powerful monsters of the dark side. Only the greatest heroes may ultimately defeat them.

-Power Beyond Belief

Kas'im's best speed feat is hitting Bane six times in the space of two heart beats. However Meetra is capable of not only analysing an entire group of enemies in less than a second. She also quickly cut down two Imperial Guardsmen, whom were considered elite even amongst their sect of Dark Council member killers. Moreover, she's capable of blitzing lesser men before they can even draw their weapons:

"We have to help Revan!" Meetra shouted, and Scourge turned to see that she, too, had just finished off her opponents.

-Source: The Old Republic: Revan

The Empire's ultimate non-Force sensitive warriors, the Imperial Guard is a selfless army devoted to the Emperor and the Emperor alone. Clad in blood-red armor and wielding deadly weaponry designed to exterminate Force users, the Imperial Guard sweep across the galaxy at the Emperor's command, destroying his enemies both outside and within the Empire. When confronted by the Imperial Guard, the mightiest of Sith have laid down their lightsabers and surrendered to the inevitable death offered by a guardsman's electrostaff. Even members of the Dark Council fear the Imperial Guard, though many would die before confessing such a weakness.

Source: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

I'd agree they were better than the typical Imperial Guard, but I don't like to say what [level of] ability they were versus a Jedi Master, etc.

-Drew Karpyshyn

Source: http://i.imgur.com/zp6L2VW.png?1

Ordinary soldiers would have been chopped down before they could even draw their weapons, but the Imperial Guard were not so easily felled.

-Source: The Old Republic: Revan

It took Meetra less than a second to see and process the odds she was up against.

-Source: The Old Republic: Revan

Now obviously, that isn't as impressive a feat as landing six hits in 'two heartbeats'. But Meetra has Echani battle precognition and techniques allow her to anticipate Kas'im's assault:

Meetra beats a handmaiden in an unarmed contest, in a weapon contest, in a free-for-all matchup, and a free-for-all against two handmaidens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzxdeCZLvjk

Meetra beats five handmaidens at once:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW7-9VNRj6Y

In an unarmed contest, Meetra outmatches Brianna the Handmaiden:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVzPlKbtCfM

Surik outfights Brianna and is praised:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZtYywU_b2o

Her greatest speed feat is defeating Traya via saber combat, given that Traya has dodged the attacks of Brianna without even moving:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4196886-9478874663-40168.gif

Brianna has of course blitzed all five of her Handmaiden Sisters, whom are each masters of Echani battle techniques and precognition themselves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rES-wpXVeGU

Physically and mentally, she is not tiring or losing her edge at all, even in the most extreme environments that any Jedi in the mythos has ever faced, such as Malachor V, Nathema, and the presence of Darth Nihilus on the Ravager, Surik hasn't faultered.

"Traversing it's surface had been agony. Mentally, she had still sensed the anguish of all who had lost their lives there. Physically, the intense gravity of the world had held her in it's crushing grip, leaving her gasping for breath. It had been the most awful and horrific experience of her life."

-The Old Republic: Revan

"On Malachor she'd felt the echoes of unimaginable pain, On Malachor she had felt the echo of great destruction."

-The Old Republic: Revan

"To walk on its surface is to feel it crushing every cell of your being. It is like being buried alive until it feels like you may never breathe again..."

-Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

The dark side energy seething throughout the planet has created a terrain of jagged rock spires, treacherous paths, and sheer cliffs. You find a pair of wrecked Republic ships that are mostly buried under mountains of sharp boulders. Beware of the glowing green cracks in the soil; these mark the location of poison gas vents.

-Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

"Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, Darth Revan has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side. He learned of the location and the true nature of Korriban, he learned of the location of other Sith artifacts, and he learned how those strong in the light side of the Force could be seduced and made to see the strength inherent in the Sith teachings. Revan knew he had discovered more than a staging area for the Mandalorian War - he had discovered an ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge."

-Star Wars: Chronicles of the Old Republic

"The entire process took less than five minutes, but for Meetra it might as well have been an eternity. She had managed to keep busy up until this point, but while waiting idly by for T3 to finish she began to notice the absence of the Force once more.

No! she screamed in her mind. The Void will not take me! I am more than just a collection of random matter and particles! I am a living being. I am Meetra Surik!

The affirmation of her own existence seemed to push the Void back, at least for the moment. But Meetra knew she couldn’t hold out against it much longer. As much as she tried to ignore what she felt—or, more precisely, didn’t feel—all around her, she knew it was only a matter of time until the horrors of Nathema stripped away her sanity.

-The Old Republic: Revan

"Nihilus' powers grow so extreme, for most beings mere exposure to the Sith Lord would cause immediate and utterly mindless devotion."

-Star Wars Insider: 88

Meetra Surik's greatest ace card is of course her extensive ability in the realm of sever Force. In a normal morals on contest, one could argue that Meetra would never use the technique. With the morals off perk however, she certainly will. Noting that Meetra Surik is stated by Chris Avellone, lead writer of KOTOR2:TSL, to be capable of temporarily deafening Darth Revan himself in the midst of combat:

After he[Kavar] leaves to fight the Mandalorians in the early skirmishes before the outbreak of the Mandalorian Wars, she[Meetra] trains with other masters, including Vima Sunrider, who cautions the Jedi Exile to be mindful of her powers, particularly her aptitude for severing another's connection to the Force.

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

The disturbance in the Force is so great that the Jedi Exile instinctively severs herself from the Force before the backlash rips her to pieces.

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

"...unless the Exile pulled some strange Force deafening move, but even that wouldn’t keep Revan down for long."

-Chris Avellone

Now Kas'im is hardly lacking for strength in the Force, having blocked Darth Bane's telekinetic attacks and in return telekinetically assaulted Bane. Meetra Surik however has to a degree successfully matched the Force powers of Atris and Nyriss in combat:

"..she[Atris] commands an array of potent dark side powers like Drain Life and Force [Lightning] Storm."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

...protect yourself[from Atris] with Force Barrier.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

Dazed, he[Scourge] looked up just in time to see another bolt of violet lightning catch Meetra in the chest. Like Nyriss, she threw up a barrier to save herself from the worst of it, but she was still knocked from her feet.

-The Old Republic: Revan

Perhaps her most impressive power accolade is that after Malachor V, Meetra Surik was said to become stronger than Traya herself:

"You are strong... I cannot see as she does, but I know, that in time, you shall surpass her power." - Darth Sion

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

This being the same Darth Traya who can stomp Kavar, Zez-Kai Ell, Vrook Lamar and Lonna Vash at once with drain and telekinesis, kill nearly a dozen Sith Assassins at once without gesturing, choke out Sion, and choke out Visas Marr, Mira and Brianna simultaneously.

So what is my incredibly long-winded opening trying to state? That Surik is close to matching Kas'im in technical prowess, has him outstripped in combat displays, is more powerful, is roughly his physical peer, has precognition to offset any margins he may have and has an ace card in sever Force just in case.

ALL credit to shootingnova.

Sorry for terrible formatting but I did all of this on mobile.

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Emperordmb

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@sithrevenant:

The most immediate elephant in the room here is the fact that Kas'im is a noted to maintain a flawless technique and working mastery of every aspect of lightsaber combat. Indeed, highly impressive accolades for the Sith blademaster. Meetra Surik however is not lacking in this regard, she has a working mastery of all forms of lightsaber combat as well, even including more esoteric techniques.

More than a mastery of all forms of lightsaber combat. Kas'im mastered all forms of lightsaber combat, to a high level as is the prerequisite for Juyo, in the span of years, then spent decades after that perfecting every single move and sequence in lightsaber combat.

After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

And this becomes even more impressive when noting that each sequence isn't necessarily unique to one form. Several sequences actually rapidly switch between several forms at once, as demonstrated by Sirak.

Now he was showing his true skill, using sequences that blended several forms at once, switching rapidly among different styles in complex patterns Bane had never seen before.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Meetra may be a master of all seven forms, but Kas'im takes his practice of the seven forms to a point beyond mastery.

Despite all of this, Kas'im still of course maintains a technical mastery of lightsaber combat superior to Surik's. What he does not have a counter for is the fact that Meetra is capable of duplicating, and even mastering, his numerous forms in the midst of combat.

Meetra has never used this ability to duplicate a mastery as finely honed and perfected as Kas'im's before, and some of the quotes and suggestions you made in your opener support that while Meetra can pick up on abilities quickly, she still needs to practice to hone them.

"Hmmm... I don't know how you learnt that so quickly. Still, your form is sloppy. Keep practicing to tighten it up, and you'll be fine." - Vrook Lamar

So Meetra learns and masters numerous other forms. However through extensive training sessions with Visas Marr and 'Kreia', Meetra Surik eventually achieves knowledge in combat equal to that of 'Kreia'. A master of kinetic combat, Trákata and a proficient user of all seven lightsaber forms, by the Sith Lord's own admission

And if there were not the case, she really wouldn't need to practice at all if she could pick up on that level of mastery just from observation. Not to mention the fact that Kas'im wields paired lightsabers while Meetra wields a single blade, so she wouldn't exactly be able to master all aspects of his fighting technique even if she could do so to the same extent just through observation. And as far as I can recall, do correct me if I'm wrong here though, Meetra has never duplicated and replicated her opponent's abilities in a duel to the death, she has done so in sparring matches with the masters. Again, correct me if I'm wrong on that one.

So while Meetra can definitely pick up techniques at a quick rate, she still requires practice to hone them to a certain extent, and thus regardless of whether or not she has demonstrated this ability in a life and death confrontation, she won't be able to replicate Kas'im's perfection of every move and sequence that he spent decades working towards in the midst of combat.

Enough of accolades however, Meetra Surik has a vast array of lightsaber feats as well. Infact she runs a two-part marathon of sorts, she starts by defeating Atris via lightsaber prowess:

"Atris has openly embraced the dark side and has taken the moniker of Darth Traya. You confront her in her meditation chamber, where it's revealed that Traya has gathered dozens of Sith holocrons."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

As a former member of the Jedi Council, Darth Traya [Atris] is a master of lightsaber combat. In addition, she commands an array of potent dark side powers like Drain Life and Force Storm.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

Atris' pride is no match for the Jedi Exile's lightsaber prowess.

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

This is impressive, but Atris really has nothing to place her above Sirak as a duelist, given Sirak's use of Juyo and the saberstaff and his physical feats, and dueling record of never losing a match in the ring before Bane, and we all know the extent of Kas'im's vast superiority over Sirak. Bane likewise commanded Force storm as well, a mere hour after learning the technique of Force lightning, and his lightning outstripped Sirak's whose lightning was powerful enough to be potentially lethal to trainee Bane. And Force drain doesn't impact her duel with Atris or her duel with Kas'im, since neither Kas'im or Meetra make use of the technique, and Meetra is immune to the technique anyways.

Meetra Surik, immediately after defeating Atris, returns to Citadel Station:

"When you return to Telos, an army of Sith invade Citadel Station."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

"Surviving the numerous battles against dark Jedi and Sith commandos requires controlled aggression and endurance."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prime Official Game Guide

"The Sith's numbers seem limitless..."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

"How can you hope to defeat a force so vast and powerful?"

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Meetra Surik with Mandalore the Preserver and Visas Marr then boards the Ravager:

"Placing the cores won't be easy thanks to the hordes of Sith commandos and officers in your way"

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

"The Lord of Hunger is protected by several chambers full of Dark Jedi and Sith heavy troopers. You must defeat these minions to reach the bridge and challenge Darth Nihilus himself."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prime Official Game Guide

"Several large rooms lie between you and the Bridge, and most of them are full of enemies."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

Makes her way to the Trayus Academy, and has to relentlessly battle her way through a legion of elite Sith:

"Trayus Academy is the home of those Jedi who have succumbed to the dark side taint of Malachor V. To reach the structure's core, where Darth Sion and Kreia await, you must face a legion of elite Sith single-handedly. Skills and subtlety may have served you well previously, but here there is no substitute for raw destructive power. Only by fighting your way through the Sith's strongest guardians can you earn the right to confront your nemesis."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

"Constant battles with numerous Sith assassins are the rule here"

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

"These Sith Assassins are the most elite among the empire."

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

"These surreptitious butchers specialize in practical modes of Jedi execution."

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

"The most elite of these assassins are the Bladeborn - Sith blademasters."

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

"A Sith offshoot dedicated to sword mastery, this tremor sword was given to masters of blades for surviving no less than ten encounters with Lightsaber wielding opponents."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

This wing of the academy is also teeming with Sith.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

The majestic halls of the Trayus Crescent are thronged with Sith and not much else.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

Trayus Academy's eastern wing is a warren of cramped rooms packed with alert Sith.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prime Official Game Guide

These are all highly impressive displays of combative prowess, and ones I use to debate for characters who have similar army busting feats, however Kas'im is noted as the greatest living swordsman in the Galaxy, which includes Raskta Lsu, a Jedi who charged through the heart of Sith ranks on Ruusan and left a litter of Sith Lords' bodies behind her, ultimately killing over a thousands Sith Lords by the end of the war.

Wielding a blue-bladed lightsaber in each hand, and shunning any form of armor, she was a terrifying figure to behold on the battlefield. Johun vividly remembered her carving great swaths of destruction through the heart of the enemy ranks, leaving a litter of bodies in her wake. It was said that, by the end of the war, as many Sith Lords had fallen under her twin blades as had been killed by the thought bomb.

Darth Bane: Rule of Two

More than a thousand highly trained minds were focused on a single task.

Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

And if Raskta isn't enough support for Kas'im's ability to do this, Darth Bane moved faster than a room full of near Sith Masters could see, and Kas'im would've been capable of completely overmatching him in speed at the time.

In the blink of an eye he knocked the saber from Sirak's hand, sliced down to shatter his forearm, then spun through and brought his saber crashing into his opponent's lower leg. It splintered under the impact and Sirak screamed as a shard of gleaming white bone sliced through muscle, sinew, and finally skin.

For an instant none of the spectators was even aware of what had happened; it took their minds a moment to catch up and register the blur of action that had occurred so much quicker than their eyes could see.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Kas'im sighed. "Then your life ends here." And he leapt in, his weapon moving with far more speed than he had ever shown during their practice sessions.

Parrying the first sequence Bane realized his former Master had always been holding something in reserve . . . just as Bane himself had done in the early stages of his battle against Sirak. Only now was he seeing Kas'im's true ability, and he was barely able to defend himself. Barely, but still able.

His opponent grunted in surprise when Bane warded him off, then stepped back to regroup. He'd come in hard and fast, expecting to end their battle quickly. Now he had to reevaluate his strategy.

"You're better than you were when we last fought," he said, clearly impressed and making no attempt to hide it.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

And in regards to Bane's and Raskta's abilities, and therefore Kas'im's, each Sith Lord is stated to be more powerful than an entire division of soldiers.

"We both know the Jedi won't be defeated by soldiers," Kopecz snapped. "I'd gladly trade a thousand of our best troopers for even one Sith Master."

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Each and every disciple at the Academy, from Sirak down to the least and lowest of the students, had the ability to become a Master. Each possessed an extremely rare gift in the dark side-a gift that was meant to be used against the Jedi, not against one another.

In killing Fohargh, Bane had thinned the ranks of potential Sith Masters. He had dealt a serious blow to the war effort. Each apprentice at the Academy was valued more highly than an entire division of Sith troopers.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

A small collection of Sith Masters, Kaan standing at their head, waited to greet the reinforcements as they disembarked. They might have been only fifty in number, but each one of them was a Sith Lord: more powerful than an entire division of soldiers.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Between all of that, while insanely impressive, Kas'im can take on scores of lesser but still highly impressive Sith opponents as well, and this is entirely in reference to his lightsaber abilities solo, rather than all-out with allies.

"Darth Nihilus is so corrupted by the dark side that his very speech causes pain and death to all who hear it. He wields a red lightsaber in battle, and he readily utilizes Force powers to kill, especially Drain Life. [Visas asks how she may best help to destroy Nihilus, the Exile who] tells her to block the flow of power Nihilus absorbs from the Ravager"

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

Amazingly dark and devastating powers are the purview of some of the greatest Sith Lords of the Knights of the Old Republic era.

Average beings stand no chance of stopping these ultra-powerful monsters of the dark side. Only the greatest heroes can ultimately defeat them.

-Power Beyond Belief: Using Ultra-Powerful Sith Lords in Saga Edition

Although Darth Nihilus managed to stun the Exile, he was unprepared for the devotion of his former pupil Marr to the young woman. Marr tried to exchange her life for that of the Exile, giving the former Jedi time to recover. Together, they confronted Darth Nihilus. The Sith Lord was no match for their combined might, and he fell in battle.

-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

The fight with Nihilus is largely circumstantial, and Nihilus is a completely different beast from Kas'im. Meetra was immune to Nihilus's drain abilities, which severely weakened Nihilus, and Visas's betrayal also weakened Nihilus.

When Nihilus tries feeding on this Jedi, his hunger is mysteriously repelled, as if confronted by his exact polar opposite. Psychically starved by the effort, the Dark Lord falls to the Jedi, and Nihilus the man dissolves into oblivion.

Source: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

And Nihilus's lightsaber skills don't begin to measure up to Kas'im's.

She is soon assaulted by packs of massive Storm Beasts:

"More dangerous still are the storm beasts—massive humanoid brutes twisted into monstrous forms by the corrupting energy of Malachor V."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

"You also find a score of storm beasts that attack you in small teams."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

"Beyond the tunnels is the storm beast pen, a massive gorge where the formidable greater storm beast prowls."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

"Largest of his breed, the greater storm beast possesses immense strength and toughness... Even a well-armored sentinel can find themselves pulverized after a few blows from the greater storm beast."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

Storm beasts seem impressive from those accolades, but Bane at a point in time at which Kas'im would've destroyed him in a duel defeated a dozen Tuk'ata at once while weakened with only his lightsaber abilities that had him surrounded.

While exploring one of the most recent tombs he'd found himself surrounded by a dozen tuk'ata, a pack twice the size of the first. He'd unleashed his lightsaber on them, slicing through flesh and bone. When the pack finally broke and fled, only four of the twelve tuk'ata still lived.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

For thirteen days he had searched the tombs in the Valley of the Dark Lords, sustaining himself only with the Force and the hydration tablets he'd brought along for the desert journey. He never slept, but rested his mind from time to time through meditation.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

He didn't look back. He marched doggedly onward. The blazing heat hadn't slowed him; neither would temperatures that were about to drop to near freezing with the setting of the sun.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

And unlike the storm beasts, as impressive as they are, Tuk'ata have been established as highly intelligent creatures with great ability in group tactics, are force sensitive creatures, and have frequently shown themselves in groups to be capable of challenging groups of master duelists at once.

The Jedi Knight Meetra Surik finally faces the veteran Sith marauder Darth Sion an ultra-powerful Sith Lord, defeating him several times:

"Perhaps the most rage-filled Sith Lord yet encountered, Darth Sion is a shattered mesh of flesh and bone. Sion is in constant pain, but his body is held together by will and fury. He is a True, Immortal manifestation of the Dark Side of the Force. A feared Lightsaber Assassin, Sion's chaotic wrath is directed towards Sith and Jedi alike."

-Star Wars Insider: 88

"Few Sith Lords hold mastery over pain or hatred like Darth Sion, Lord of Pain. His visage is terrible to behold: a decomposing body held together by dark side energies channeled by Sion himself, sustaining his life through the Force, powered by anger and hatred. He is in eternal pain but endures it as a small price for apparent immortality. However, in the end, despite his anger, hatred, and manipulation of dark side energy, the Lord of Pain could not defeat the Jedi Exile."

-Star Wars Insider: 88

Average beings stand no chance of stopping these ultra-powerful monsters of the dark side. Only the greatest heroes may ultimately defeat them.

- Power Beyond Belief

Darth Sion has vanquished many Jedi foes.

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

I don't think I need to explain why defeating Sion in lightsaber combat doesn't prove Meetra's superiority to Kas'im as a duelist, as trainee Bane himself has more impressive feats of lightsaber ability than Sion.

Meetra Surik then faces and kills Darth Traya, an ultra-powerful Sith whom sits upon a colossal geyser of Dark Side energy, due to her skills with a lightsaber:

The nexus of Trayus Academy, the core is a clawlike altar built over a colossal geyser of dark side energy. It is here that you face your ultimate battle and fulfill your destiny.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat.

-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Traya uses vast telekinetic powers to wield a trio of lightsabers against her, but she is ultimately killed by the person she considered her greatest disciple.

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Any attempt to immobilize or debilitate her with Force powers will probably fail, so stick with melee combat..

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

Average beings stand no chance of stopping these ultra-powerful monsters of the dark side. Only the greatest heroes may ultimately defeat them.

-Power Beyond Belief

Her fight with Traya proves that she can defend against Traya's force abilities (one of her most potent ones is completely useless against Meetra), and that she can overcome Traya in lightsaber combat. This does not prove that she can overcome Kas'im with offensive force abilities however (as her fight with Traya was more of a defensive force demonstration), and it doesn't prove she can overcome Kas'im in lightsaber combat (As Traya is a less impressive duelist than Kas'im).

Kas'im's best speed feat is hitting Bane six times in the space of two heart beats. However Meetra is capable of not only analysing an entire group of enemies in less than a second. She also quickly cut down two Imperial Guardsmen, whom were considered elite even amongst their sect of Dark Council member killers. Moreover, she's capable of blitzing lesser men before they can even draw their weapons:

"We have to help Revan!" Meetra shouted, and Scourge turned to see that she, too, had just finished off her opponents.

-Source: The Old Republic: Revan

The Empire's ultimate non-Force sensitive warriors, the Imperial Guard is a selfless army devoted to the Emperor and the Emperor alone. Clad in blood-red armor and wielding deadly weaponry designed to exterminate Force users, the Imperial Guard sweep across the galaxy at the Emperor's command, destroying his enemies both outside and within the Empire. When confronted by the Imperial Guard, the mightiest of Sith have laid down their lightsabers and surrendered to the inevitable death offered by a guardsman's electrostaff. Even members of the Dark Council fear the Imperial Guard, though many would die before confessing such a weakness.

Source: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

I'd agree they were better than the typical Imperial Guard, but I don't like to say what [level of] ability they were versus a Jedi Master, etc.

-Drew Karpyshyn

Source: http://i.imgur.com/zp6L2VW.png?1

Ordinary soldiers would have been chopped down before they could even draw their weapons, but the Imperial Guard were not so easily felled.

-Source: The Old Republic: Revan

It took Meetra less than a second to see and process the odds she was up against.

-Source: The Old Republic: Revan

Now obviously, that isn't as impressive a feat as landing six hits in 'two heartbeats'.

Though you requested KOTOR II Meetra, I will allow you to use her novel speed feats, as speed feats are ridiculously confusing to try and judge from gameplay mechanics.

Ultimately however, this is all irrelevant, as Kas'im would've been capable of overwhelming trainee Bane with his saberstaff wielding speed, and trainee Bane moved too quickly for near Sith masters to even see. I think Kas'im's superiority in speed is rather noticeable, and though Meetra wouldn't be helpless against it, he'd still use it to drive an advantage.

But Meetra has Echani battle precognition and techniques allow her to anticipate Kas'im's assault:

Meetra beats a handmaiden in an unarmed contest, in a weapon contest, in a free-for-all matchup, and a free-for-all against two handmaidens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzxdeCZLvjk

Meetra beats five handmaidens at once:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW7-9VNRj6Y

In an unarmed contest, Meetra outmatches Brianna the Handmaiden:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVzPlKbtCfM

Surik outfights Brianna and is praised:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZtYywU_b2o

Her greatest speed feat is defeating Traya via saber combat, given that Traya has dodged the attacks of Brianna without even moving:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4196886-9478874663-40168.gif

Brianna has of course blitzed all five of her Handmaiden Sisters, whom are each masters of Echani battle techniques and precognition themselves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rES-wpXVeGU

While this could help her compensate to a certain extent, it still won't allow her to meet the striking speed of Kas'im, and Kas'im has a similar capacity to understand and counter Meetra's moves. Having perfected every move and sequence, he would recognize any move Meetra attempts to use against him.

As a blademaster, he's also noted to have proficiency in recognizing the natural tendencies of duelists and what fighting style would be best suited for them just from seeing how they perform basic moves.

By observing the natural tendencies of his students as they learned the basics, Lord Kas'im determined which form would best match their style.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

And to compound this, Kas'im is familiar with Meetra's application of lightsaber combat, given his PROXY perk.

Perk: Training with PROXY

For those looking to get the edge over their opponent using knowledge and practice. One day before the battle your character will now have a one hour training session with the droid PROXY. PROXY will be mimicking your opponents style and moves. The only problem with PROXY is that he doesn't mimic their style perfectly, so your character has an idea of what they are going up against but hasn't seen the real deal yet.

So all in all, Meetra's echani foresight is good, but Kas'im has a similar edge to partially nullify it, and even if not nullified at all it wouldn't be enough to close the speed gap.

Physically and mentally, she is not tiring or losing her edge at all, even in the most extreme environments that any Jedi in the mythos has ever faced, such as Malachor V, Nathema, and the presence of Darth Nihilus on the Ravager, Surik hasn't faultered.

This is impressive endurance for Meetra, though she also has the advantage of drawing strength and power from the deaths of others with her wound abilities. Kas'im himself has an impressive durability feat in not being instantly killed after being crushed under several tons of stone. I would concede Meetra likely has the greater endurance of the two, but I don't believe a lightsaber duel would go on long enough for that to really play a factor.

Meetra Surik's greatest ace card is of course her extensive ability in the realm of sever Force. In a normal morals on contest, one could argue that Meetra would never use the technique. With the morals off perk however, she certainly will. Noting that Meetra Surik is stated by Chris Avellone, lead writer of KOTOR2:TSL, to be capable of temporarily deafening Darth Revan himself in the midst of combat:

After he[Kavar] leaves to fight the Mandalorians in the early skirmishes before the outbreak of the Mandalorian Wars, she[Meetra] trains with other masters, including Vima Sunrider, who cautions the Jedi Exile to be mindful of her powers, particularly her aptitude for severing another's connection to the Force.

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

The disturbance in the Force is so great that the Jedi Exile instinctively severs herself from the Force before the backlash rips her to pieces.

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

"...unless the Exile pulled some strange Force deafening move, but even that wouldn’t keep Revan down for long."

-Chris Avellone

Meetra Surik has never demonstrated the use of Sever Force in combat, and her use of the ability on herself is not indicative of her ability to do so to others. And Avellone's quote does not prove that she's capable of using it in combat, it's more of a statement that even if she was able to do so, Revan would still beat her. (In anycase, if Meetra can't even beat Revan when Revan has no connection to the Force, I don't know why there's even any doubt to the outcome of this fight). "Some strange Force deafening move" is not very conclusive diction to use when describing her abilities. And morals wouldn't prevent her usage of the ability regardless, as it is a non-lethal power, and one not belonging to the dark side.

Now Kas'im is hardly lacking for strength in the Force, having blocked Darth Bane's telekinetic attacks and in return telekinetically assaulted Bane. Meetra Surik however has to a degree successfully matched the Force powers of Atris and Nyriss in combat:

"..she[Atris] commands an array of potent dark side powers like Drain Life and Force [Lightning] Storm."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

...protect yourself[from Atris] with Force Barrier.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide

Dazed, he[Scourge] looked up just in time to see another bolt of violet lightning catch Meetra in the chest. Like Nyriss, she threw up a barrier to save herself from the worst of it, but she was still knocked from her feet.

-The Old Republic: Revan

This doesn't really prove your point because Meetra got her ass kicked by Nyriss and it's post KOTOR II, and Atris doesn't really measure up to Bane as a Force user.

Perhaps her most impressive power accolade is that after Malachor V, Meetra Surik was said to become stronger than Traya herself:

"You are strong... I cannot see as she does, but I know, that in time, you shall surpass her power." - Darth Sion

Sion's predictions don't prove that she actually did surpass Traya in power after KOTOR II, and regardless, this is a completely irrelevant argument anyways as you selected KOTOR II to use anyways.

If there is any more room I shall take KOTOR2 Surik with morals off.

So yeah. I'll let you use the speed feats because otherwise you'd have to rely on game mechanics for those, but I won't accept power accolades that apply after KOTOR II.

So what is my incredibly long-winded opening trying to state? That Surik is close to matching Kas'im in technical prowess, has him outstripped in combat displays, is more powerful, is roughly his physical peer, has precognition to offset any margins he may have and has an ace card in sever Force just in case.

Kas'im clearly outstrips Meetra in technical prowess (via perfecting every move and sequence for decades after initially mastering the forms), his capacity to near-instantly stomp trainee Bane in a duel surpasses Meetra's ability with a blade, is definitely powerful enough to defend against Meetra's telekinetic attacks, is notably faster than her, has an intimate understanding of lightsaber combat and an hour of training with PROXY to offset her precog, and her sever Force is never something she's been shown to be able to use in combat.

Sorry for terrible formatting but I did all of this on mobile.

No problem this time. Please do it on a computer next time though.

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@emperordmb:

Instead of applying a general response, I wanted to clear a few things up.

1.Meetra is immune to Force drain.

Meetra Surik contrary to popular observation is not infact immune or resistant to the normal drain technique.

Darth Nihilus does indeed attempt to devour her connection to the Force, but it does not work. Why? Because Meetra Surik is his polar opposite, she too is a Wound in the Force caused by Malachor V:

When Nihilus tries feeding on this Jedi, his hunger is mysteriously repelled, as if confronted by his exact polar opposite. Psychically starved by the effort, the Dark Lord falls to the Jedi, and Nihilus the man dissolves into oblivion."

-Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Perhaps the greatest evidence of this is where Meetra Surik is 'killed' by Darth Sion with Force drain, and is rendered nearly dead:

Loading Video...

So we have evidence that Surik has never been immune to the drain technique, only that Nihilus' siphoning technique is not effective against the Exile due to her Wound in the Force as his polar opposite

This means that Traya and Atris were more than capable of attacking the Exile Meetra Surik with Force drain, she simply managed to survive the encounter and prevail despite their powers.

2.Technical mastery is the same as Dueling skill.

Technical knowledge is the knowledge and proficiency of a certain technique or lightsaber form, one's training in the arts of lightsaber combat. Dueling ability and skill is the actual combative effectiveness of a duelist themselves.

Obviously they compliment one another, but are not the same thing. Kas'im had a perfect mastery of lightsaber dueling, however Darth Bane, the only notable duelist we see Kas'im face, was still absolutely capable of dueling him in a very good fight and he hadn't nearly the mastery of lightsaber combat that Kas'im did.

Yet here we have the Jedi Exile Meetra Surik. She has high-level mastery of multiple lightsaber forms, a mastery of the ultimate discipline Juyo and is even proficient in the application of esoteric techniques such as Trákata. She compliments this skill with a mastery of Echani fighting techniques and unarmed prowess enough to clear the Mandalorian battle circle on Dxun.

Atris, whom had learnt combat techniques from dozens of Sith holocrons, was a master of lightsaber combat, had high-level mastery of numerous forms, and was a primary Juyo practitioner, was still incapable of matching Surik's 'lightsaber prowess'.

Kas'im on the other hand was incapable of defeating Bane in a duel until Kas'im switched to a Jar'kai application of Form IV: Ataru. An advantage Kas'im had purposefully designed in Bane's training. Meetra Surik is not alien to any of the seven forms, jar'kai or saberstaff combat. She has at least advanced proficiency, if not mastery in, Jar'kai and Ataru. Unlike Darth Bane, Meetra Surik has exceptional abilities in precognition, both regular Force-based battle precognition and Echani battle precognition. This mitigates any surprises Kas'im has in store for her.

I don't doubt Kas'im's greater mastery of technique and sequence. However that is not something he is going to be capable of applying nearly as well against a fellow master of lightsaber combat who has beaten two other notable masters of lightsaber combat.

3.Physicals.

Kas'im is indeed very fast, he moved faster than he did against Darth Bane who could move his blade as a blur.

Traya being capable of dodging all of Brianna's attacks whilst standing directly infront of her, is also very impressive. Brianna is herself capable of easily speedblitzing five high-tier Echani martial artists in all of three seconds.

Consider if you will that Meetra outright defeats Traya and all three kinetic lightsaber blades simultaneously. This being a Meetra who has just ran the marathon of an entire legion of elite Sith led by Darth Sion, undoubtedly leaving her exhausted ontop of being physically and mentally ill.

4.Feats.

No Raskta Lsu racking up a thousand fodder Sith apprentice kills on the battlefield over time is not comparable. One cannot take these feats as individual battles with no relation to one another, they are an accumulation of multiple fighyss that take place in sequence to each other. That is what makes these feats so impressive, they are long drawn out battles.

Meetra Surik vanquished an entire legion of elite Sith. These are the remnants of not just Revan's Sith Empire, but the elite sect of Jedi killers that he started and Traya took over. Then she defeated Darth Sion repeatedly, Sion is the leader of these assassins, a veteran of both the Exar Kun war and the Jedi Civil War with a very large kill count. Only then is she facing and subsequently defeating Darth Traya.

All of this on Malachor V where all her enemies have a massive amplification:

The nexus of Trayus Academy, the core is a clawlike altar built over a colossal geyser of dark side energy. It is here that you face your ultimate battle and fulfill your destiny.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

A place that literally scarred her for ten years, where she has to feel all of the pain, all over again, the entire time she is fighting. It is specifically noted to be physically and mentally damaging to her:

She had visited Malachor V years after the cataclysm of the mass-shadow generator. Traversing its surface had been agony. Mentally, she had still sensed the anguish of all who had lost their lives there. Physically, the intense gravity of the world had held her in its crushing grip, leaving her gasping for breath. It had been the most awful and horrific experience of her life.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

It is stated to drain Jedi:

"It corrupts all that walks on its surface—drowns them in the power of the dark side. It corrupts all life, and it feeds on death." - Kreia

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

It is an incredible feat in battle that Kas'im has never come close to replicating.

In accolades as a master of lightsaber techniques Kas'im has the edge, but in feats Meetra has a clearly large margin over her opponent.

5.Sever Force.

Meetra is stated to have a natural aptitude for the technique that Vima has to teach her to be wary of. In an instinctual defense of her very life Surik uses it to cut herself off from the Force. She can clearly use the technique but is obviously shy of it, with morals off such a problem doesn't exist. Furthermore Avellone's statement that Surik could temporarily do to Revan what Vodo and Nomi did to Ulic in the Coruscant war room, is merely authorial confirmation of what is already stated in lore.

6.The Force.

You assume that Meetra Surik doesn't have the offensive capacity to attack Kas'im, whilst Meetra is certainly a conservative Jedi in terms of power usage, don't mistake that with a lack of power.

Meetra learns the Force Forms, lest we forget, in which she is stated to achieve the pinnacle of Force Mastery. This is enforced by the fact that the Exile achieves a heightened knowledge of the Light Side of the Force and learns how to use the Moving Meditation technique to increase her conection to the Force:

This form is considered the pinnacle of Force Mastery.

-Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

....and recovered part of your connection to the Force, learning a form of Moving Meditation to calm the mind.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

This is among one of the greatest techniques of the Jedi Master - yet when one has seen all that you have, it is such a simple thing, you may wonder why you did not notice it before.

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Force barrier [..] becomes even more effective when you learn Force Enlightenment.

-Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

Clearly Meetra Surik has a powerful command of the Force and a high degree of understanding regarding it's light side.

Nothing Kas'im attacks her with is going to prove effective when the potent Force lightning of Nyriss, Traya, and Atris couldn't overwhelm her.

7. Nyriss defeating Meetra Surik.

It is assumed that Nyriss was vastly better than Surik, in reality circumstances lent to Nyriss' victory, allow me to elaborate:

Nyriss' lightning attack couldn't even breach Surik's Force barrier, which had no preparation to it at all:

Dazed, he looked up just in time to see another bolt of violet lightning catch Meetra in the chest. Like Nyriss, she threw up a barrier to save herself from the worst of it, but she was still knocked from her feet.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

It is well known that Force barrier isn't a very effective counter to Force lightning, barrier is used to defend against telekinesis in terms of a Force exchange. This is a big, and the main reason, Tutaminis was developed by the Jedi. Tutaminis absorbs all forms of energy attacks, such as blasters, and even lightsabers. In a Force exchange it can block Force lightning.

This is never easy, even the strongest Jedi Masters have difficulty absorbing lethal energy like Sith lightning:

"Called Sith lightning, these charges cause excruciating pain and weaken life, and it is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters to deflect such bursts."

-Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

So if it's hard to absorb Force lightning with the Force defense technique developed for exactly that purpose. How much harder must it be to raise an effective Force barrier, not meamt to block lightming, against Force lightning as potent as that of Nyriss' amplified bursts?

Note that Nyriss' lightning is powerful enough so as to char two armoured guards near instantly:

"A burst of purple lightning arched down the steps, catching both men in the chest. They barely had time to scream before they were turned into charred and smoking husks..."

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

These are feats of Sith lightning that even Sith Lords as powerful as Darth Tyranus haven't replicated before, only Sith as powerful as Darth Bane in Darth Bane: Rule of Two have:

Clenching the fingers of his left hand tight against his open palm, Bane wheeled toward the two men on his right and thrust his fist up into the air. A dozen forks of blue lightning arced out from above his head to envelop the screaming soldiers, cooking them alive. Shrieking in agony, they danced and twitched like marionettes on electric strings for several seconds before their smoking husks collapsed on the ground.

-Source: Rule of Two

This of course being a more powerful incarnation of Darth Bane than the one that faces and defeats Kas'im on Lehon. He is even stated to have gotten stronger between killing Kas'im and facing Lord Kaan:

Rather than have Bane tear the Sith apart, Kaan sent assassins to kill him. Bane only got stronger however.

-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

I'm not going as far as to claim Darth Nyriss is as powerful as Darth Bane as of Darth Bane: Rule of Two. I am simply pointing to the fact that Surik being capable of rebuking the majority of Nyriss' extremely potent Force lightning with a mere Force barrier speaks volumes of the Jedi's own strength in the Force.

Something that must be taken into account regarding Meetra's battle with Nyriss is that it took place in an environment that even hindered Revan, an undoubtedly more powerful Force user than Meetra Surik:

“Have you had any visions of what will happen when we face the Emperor?"

“No. The dark side obscures my sight.”

-Scourge and Revan, Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Considering that a Jedi Master of Revan's caliber who is capable of channeling the dark side as well as the light, is having difficulty with his own powers of farsight, then Meetra who draws exclusively from the light side of the Force would be even worse off than him.

Now the second reason Darth Nyriss was winning their fight is the fact that Nyriss had extra power because of the environment and thus greater reserves of energy to augment herself physically with. This becomes evident in the fight, where Meetra is capable of holding her ground but ultimately can't match her speed:

Before they could recover, she leapt at them. Despite her withered appearance, she moved with the all the speed and ferocity of a dark side warrior in her prime.

Scourge barely managed to parry the first wave of her assault, unable to even think about countering with an attack of his own. Another quick thrust forced him off balance and he staggered backward.

Nyriss seized on the opportunity to focus all her efforts on breaking through Meetra’s defenses. The Jedi was clearly overmatched; though she managed to hold her ground, she was forced down to one knee.

-Star Wars The Old Republic

So a hindered Meetra can hold her ground against Nyriss' focused attacks, but is forced to a knee, whereas Lord Scourge is straight up overwhelmed by Nyriss in two moves.

Lord Scourge at this point is a very fast combatant. He has moved with 'blinding' speed, twirled his lightsaber in 'precise' blurs, has seen and analysed a distant speeder's intent in less than two seconds, moved faster than autotargeting blaster cannons, & moved faster than patrol droids can react:

"Scourge leapt to the side as a barrage of blasterfire was unleashed from the vehicle. He hit the ground in a roll that brought him to his feet just in time to spring clear of a second series of bolts. Moving with the blinding speed of the Force, he raced across the courtyard, bolts ricocheting off the ground just behind him every step of the way... The speeder had to be equipped with an autotargeting blaster cannon."

-Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

"Instead he performed a complex routine of drills designed to hone his reflexes, all while wearing his heavy armor. His crimson blade hummed as he cycled through the aggressive thrusts and cuts of Juyo, the seventh form of lightsaber combat. The weapon moved so fast that it was nothing but a blur, but each strike was precise and controlled."

-Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

"The Force had sustained him so far: protecting him from the worst of the heat and allowing him to move faster than his enemies[patrol droids] could react. "

-Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

"All of this, from Scourge’s first awareness of the speeder to confirmation of its hostile intent, took less than two seconds."

-Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

So Meetra hindered by Dromund Kaas is fighting faster than Scourge, but not to the point that she can prevent being driven to one knee by Nyriss who is, literally, high on speed.

Considering all of this; I believe it is fair to say that Meetra Surik on neutral ground against a Force user of lesser potency, is certainly going to be capable of not just blocking Kas'im's attempts of offensive Force attacks, but also replicating the speed required to face him head on.

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Emperordmb

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#18  Edited By Emperordmb

@sithrevenant :

First of all, how many more posts would you like to continue this debate for? I have no problem debating this, but I would rather it not go on indefinitely and it would be nice to have a sense of how much longer our debate is going to last, with respect to our own personal time and wishes of not obstructing the tournament. So yeah, if you could give me an answer that would be great. Anyways, onto my response.

@emperordmb:

Instead of applying a general response, I wanted to clear a few things up.

1.Meetra is immune to Force drain.

Meetra Surik contrary to popular observation is not infact immune or resistant to the normal drain technique.

Darth Nihilus does indeed attempt to devour her connection to the Force, but it does not work. Why? Because Meetra Surik is his polar opposite, she too is a Wound in the Force caused by Malachor V:

When Nihilus tries feeding on this Jedi, his hunger is mysteriously repelled, as if confronted by his exact polar opposite. Psychically starved by the effort, the Dark Lord falls to the Jedi, and Nihilus the man dissolves into oblivion."

-Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Perhaps the greatest evidence of this is where Meetra Surik is 'killed' by Darth Sion with Force drain, and is rendered nearly dead:

Loading Video...

So we have evidence that Surik has never been immune to the drain technique, only that Nihilus' siphoning technique is not effective against the Exile due to her Wound in the Force as his polar opposite

This means that Traya and Atris were more than capable of attacking the Exile Meetra Surik with Force drain, she simply managed to survive the encounter and prevail despite their powers.

Oh well that's some Nihilus PIS then. It's stupid that Nihilus can't drain her but Sion apparently can. But whatever, that doesn't have any bearing on the debate.

That is indeed impressive, however the ability to combat drain has no bearing on a fight with Kas'im, as Kas'im does not employ force draining powers.

2.Technical mastery is the same as Dueling skill.

Technical knowledge is the knowledge and proficiency of a certain technique or lightsaber form, one's training in the arts of lightsaber combat. Dueling ability and skill is the actual combative effectiveness of a duelist themselves.

Obviously they compliment one another, but are not the same thing. Kas'im had a perfect mastery of lightsaber dueling, however Darth Bane, the only notable duelist we see Kas'im face, was still absolutely capable of dueling him in a very good fight and he hadn't nearly the mastery of lightsaber combat that Kas'im did.

Yet here we have the Jedi Exile Meetra Surik. She has high-level mastery of multiple lightsaber forms, a mastery of the ultimate discipline Juyo and is even proficient in the application of esoteric techniques such as Trákata. She compliments this skill with a mastery of Echani fighting techniques and unarmed prowess enough to clear the Mandalorian battle circle on Dxun.

Atris, whom had learnt combat techniques from dozens of Sith holocrons, was a master of lightsaber combat, had high-level mastery of numerous forms, and was a primary Juyo practitioner, was still incapable of matching Surik's 'lightsaber prowess'.

Kas'im on the other hand was incapable of defeating Bane in a duel until Kas'im switched to a Jar'kai application of Form IV: Ataru. An advantage Kas'im had purposefully designed in Bane's training. Meetra Surik is not alien to any of the seven forms, jar'kai or saberstaff combat. She has at least advanced proficiency, if not mastery in, Jar'kai and Ataru. Unlike Darth Bane, Meetra Surik has exceptional abilities in precognition, both regular Force-based battle precognition and Echani battle precognition. This mitigates any surprises Kas'im has in store for her.

I don't doubt Kas'im's greater mastery of technique and sequence. However that is not something he is going to be capable of applying nearly as well against a fellow master of lightsaber combat who has beaten two other notable masters of lightsaber combat.

Ultimately however, Kas'im having an edge in technical skill is still an edge, and his demonstrations of martial ability are still more impressive regardless. Kas'im was still capable of stomping a trainee Bane in lightsaber combat with a saberstaff, which Bane was quite familiar with and had seen applied in combat numerous times. And Bane even as of that point is honestly a more impressive duelist than Atris or even Traya. Atris has nothing putting her above Sirak as a duelist, as Sirak also wields Juyo, marking him as a high level master of multiple forms as well, and trainee Bane stomped Sirak. Likewise, Bane stomping Sirak and soloing a dozen Tuk'ata with his lightsaber skills is indeed more impressive than anything Kreia, or any of Meetra's opponents for that matter, have ever done in lightsaber combat. If you disagree, prove me wrong.

But as it stands, Kas'im not only has a superior technical mastery, but he is demonstrably capable of stomping a duelist arguably more impressive than any duelist Meetra has ever overcome.

3.Physicals.

Kas'im is indeed very fast, he moved faster than he did against Darth Bane who could move his blade as a blur.

Traya being capable of dodging all of Brianna's attacks whilst standing directly infront of her, is also very impressive. Brianna is herself capable of easily speedblitzing five high-tier Echani martial artists in all of three seconds.

Consider if you will that Meetra outright defeats Traya and all three kinetic lightsaber blades simultaneously. This being a Meetra who has just ran the marathon of an entire legion of elite Sith led by Darth Sion, undoubtedly leaving her exhausted ontop of being physically and mentally ill.

I believe this is the quote you are referring to.

His muscles moved instinctively, exploding into action. There was a hiss as the downstroke of his blade carved through the air in the first move, a blur of motion ... but far too slow. Kas'im responded by slipping to the side and bringing his own double-bladed weapon around in a long, swift arc that struck Bane hard in the ribs.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

And this is so far beneath what Kas'im has done in terms of speed, as Kas'im was holding back tremendously, and Bane's strength in the Froce was very far beneath the point he was at where he beat Sirak, and even farther beneath the point he was at when he and Kas'im fought, actually noting at this point in time his connection was quite hampered.

Kas'im sighed. "Then your life ends here." And be leapt in, his weapon moving with far more speed than he had ever shown during their practice sessions.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

He felt the Force flowing through him, but it seemed distant and hollow: the veil was still there.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction (Point in time at which Bane moved in a blur)

And once again, that is not the best Kas'im or Bane has to offer in terms of speed.

Darth Bane moved faster than a room full of near Sith Masters could see, and Kas'im would've been capable of completely overmatching him in speed at the time.

In the blink of an eye he knocked the saber from Sirak's hand, sliced down to shatter his forearm, then spun through and brought his saber crashing into his opponent's lower leg. It splintered under the impact and Sirak screamed as a shard of gleaming white bone sliced through muscle, sinew, and finally skin.

For an instant none of the spectators was even aware of what had happened; it took their minds a moment to catch up and register the blur of action that had occurred so much quicker than their eyes could see.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Kas'im sighed. "Then your life ends here." And he leapt in, his weapon moving with far more speed than he had ever shown during their practice sessions.

Parrying the first sequence Bane realized his former Master had always been holding something in reserve . . . just as Bane himself had done in the early stages of his battle against Sirak. Only now was he seeing Kas'im's true ability, and he was barely able to defend himself. Barely, but still able.

His opponent grunted in surprise when Bane warded him off, then stepped back to regroup. He'd come in hard and fast, expecting to end their battle quickly. Now he had to reevaluate his strategy.

"You're better than you were when we last fought," he said, clearly impressed and making no attempt to hide it.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

So clearly, Kas'im being capable of near speed-blitzing someone with such a speed feat outstrips Meetra's speed feats by a quite noticeable margin. Bringing up Kas'im's less impressive speed feats to compare with Meetra's doesn't prove Meetra can compensate for the gap in speed when Kas'im has noticeably greater speed feats than the ones you are mentioning. Meetra also compensated for this marathon by feeding off of the deaths of those she killed. The Jedi masters outright note she feeds on death for power, and she killed several Sith on her way to Traya.

Exile: "But I can feel Force, strongly."

Vrook: "So you think. It is not the strength of a Jedi you feel."

Zez-Kai Ell: "He's right. It's... all the deaths you've caused to get here. You feed on it, and you grow stronger. You're like Malachor... it's in you, it's what you are now. You must have noticed as you've fought across all these planets, killing hundreds, only to grow more and more powerful. Why do you think that was?"

Even if Meetra does have an edge in endurance, I don't believe a duel between Meetra and Kas'im would last long enough to truly be a factor in their contest.

4.Feats.

No Raskta Lsu racking up a thousand fodder Sith apprentice kills on the battlefield over time is not comparable. One cannot take these feats as individual battles with no relation to one another, they are an accumulation of multiple fighyss that take place in sequence to each other. That is what makes these feats so impressive, they are long drawn out battles.

Meetra Surik vanquished an entire legion of elite Sith. These are the remnants of not just Revan's Sith Empire, but the elite sect of Jedi killers that he started and Traya took over. Then she defeated Darth Sion repeatedly, Sion is the leader of these assassins, a veteran of both the Exar Kun war and the Jedi Civil War with a very large kill count. Only then is she facing and subsequently defeating Darth Traya.

All of this on Malachor V where all her enemies have a massive amplification:

The nexus of Trayus Academy, the core is a clawlike altar built over a colossal geyser of dark side energy. It is here that you face your ultimate battle and fulfill your destiny.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

A place that literally scarred her for ten years, where she has to feel all of the pain, all over again, the entire time she is fighting. It is specifically noted to be physically and mentally damaging to her:

She had visited Malachor V years after the cataclysm of the mass-shadow generator. Traversing its surface had been agony. Mentally, she had still sensed the anguish of all who had lost their lives there. Physically, the intense gravity of the world had held her in its crushing grip, leaving her gasping for breath. It had been the most awful and horrific experience of her life.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

It is stated to drain Jedi:

"It corrupts all that walks on its surface—drowns them in the power of the dark side. It corrupts all life, and it feeds on death." - Kreia

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

It is an incredible feat in battle that Kas'im has never come close to replicating.

In accolades as a master of lightsaber techniques Kas'im has the edge, but in feats Meetra has a clearly large margin over her opponent.

"A thousand fodder Sith apprentice kills"? The kills are specifically noted to be Sith Lords, the equivalents of Jedi Masters, and she didn't kill them one by one, she killed them by charging into the heart of Sith ranks and leaving a litter of corpses in her wake. And each Sith Lord was stated to be more powerful than an entire division of troopers. If you would bother to read the quotes I posted as evidence in my first reply you would know as much. And the battles of Ruusan were also long drawn out battles, and the campaign itself was stated to perhaps be the bloodiest confrontation between Jedi and Sith ever.

The Battle of Ruusan, the notorious conflict in which Jedi recruited novice Force-sensitive youths to battle the Sith, was a series of seven ground battles, and may have been the bloodiest confrontation between Jedi and Sith in history.

Source: Jedi vs Sith: The Essential guide to the Force

The army of opposition consisted of beings from many species and planets, representing all walks of life. But they had one thing in common. They were Jedi.

The two sides came together on a remote and little known world. Salvos of pure energy were exchanged, storms raged across the land, and lightning flashed from the skies. Entire cities were destroyed, a species was pushed to the edge of extinction, and spirits separated from their bodies.

Source: Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

That quote you posted about the geyser of dark side energy only relates to the Trayus core, which she fought none of those many Sith within, and the gravity likewise would've effected every single person on the planet. Not to mention, Meetra was fighting through them using her Force abilities and lightsaber skills so that is not a feat that can be completely attributed to her lightsaber skills. And you argued Raskta was fighting them in sequence? Meetra didn't take on every Sith in the academy at once, she fought them in smaller groups, and I can't find a single example of her taking on more than ten at a time, which while impressive, is not incomparable with Bane's Tuk'ta feat, which he achieved when Kas'im would've stomped him. Kas'im may not stomp Meetra as a duel, but he is still her superior as a duelist.

5.Sever Force.

Meetra is stated to have a natural aptitude for the technique that Vima has to teach her to be wary of. In an instinctual defense of her very life Surik uses it to cut herself off from the Force. She can clearly use the technique but is obviously shy of it, with morals off such a problem doesn't exist. Furthermore Avellone's statement that Surik could temporarily do to Revan what Vodo and Nomi did to Ulic in the Coruscant war room, is merely authorial confirmation of what is already stated in lore.

Though Meetra is stated to have skill with that ability, that does not prove the ability itself is usable in combat, and I can't think of a single example of sever Force ever being used in combat, with literally no example from Meetra other than cutting her own connection. Meetra being stated to have skill in this ability doesn't prove it's combatively applicable, and she's never used it on another in combat, much less one as powerful as Kas'im, and morals wouldn't have prevented her from using this ability as it is not a dark side ability, and Jedi have used it on powerful dark siders that pose a threat to the Galaxy (like Ulic though not combatively, after Ulic was beaten by the group of Jedi), a description that clearly suits members of the triumvirate, and their minions with training in the forbidden drain abilities. And even if it is applicable in combat, it is not defined how much energy focus or preparation it would take, and thus there's not really proof she could do so in a high intensity lightsaber duel. And Avellone's statement doesn't confirm Surik could do that to Revan, it merely states that if she somehow did it, she still wouldn't be able to beat Revan. If you really want to take that quote at face value, Surik is incapable of killing a Revan with no connection to the Force in combat, and such a thing really would not help your case at all.

Basically, Meetra's ability to sever Force connections in combat is far too vague, being devoid of any example and any description of what it would take for her to use such an ability, and thus it's not something that can be proven effective in this fight.

6.The Force.

You assume that Meetra Surik doesn't have the offensive capacity to attack Kas'im, whilst Meetra is certainly a conservative Jedi in terms of power usage, don't mistake that with a lack of power.

Meetra learns the Force Forms, lest we forget, in which she is stated to achieve the pinnacle of Force Mastery. This is enforced by the fact that the Exile achieves a heightened knowledge of the Light Side of the Force and learns how to use the Moving Meditation technique to increase her conection to the Force:

This form is considered the pinnacle of Force Mastery.

-Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

....and recovered part of your connection to the Force, learning a form of Moving Meditation to calm the mind.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

This is among one of the greatest techniques of the Jedi Master - yet when one has seen all that you have, it is such a simple thing, you may wonder why you did not notice it before.

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Force barrier [..] becomes even more effective when you learn Force Enlightenment.

-Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

Clearly Meetra Surik has a powerful command of the Force and a high degree of understanding regarding it's light side.

Nothing Kas'im attacks her with is going to prove effective when the potent Force lightning of Nyriss, Traya, and Atris couldn't overwhelm her.

Kas'im attacking or beating Meetra with the Force was never my argument, nor was it ever mentioned a single time in my argument, so this point you're making about Kas'im not being capable of overwhelming Meetra with the Force is completely irrelevant to my argument.

7. Nyriss defeating Meetra Surik.

It is assumed that Nyriss was vastly better than Surik, in reality circumstances lent to Nyriss' victory, allow me to elaborate:

Nyriss' lightning attack couldn't even breach Surik's Force barrier, which had no preparation to it at all:

Dazed, he looked up just in time to see another bolt of violet lightning catch Meetra in the chest. Like Nyriss, she threw up a barrier to save herself from the worst of it, but she was still knocked from her feet.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

First of all, Meetra did not completely block Nyriss's lightning, she only reduced it's power with her barrier enough to survive the attack without serious injury. The attack still hit her in the chest and knocked her from her feet, as demonstrated by the underlined quotes.

And once again, her fight with Nyriss is completely irrelevant to this fight so I'm hardly going to spend a lot of time replying to it or trying to lowball it.

@sithrevenant said:

If there is any more room I shall take KOTOR2 Surik with morals off.

So this fight is inapplicable to the version of Meetra you are using, and her blocking Nyriss's lightning wouldn't be relevant to my argument regardless as I once again never argued Kas'im would gain any edge or defeat Meetra through offensive Force ability. The Nyriss fight simply doesn't count in this debate in any respect.

So in response to your seven points, drain is inapplicable to this fight, I never argued Kas'im would overpower Meetra with the Force, Meetra's fight with Nyriss is inapplicable to this version of Meetra, and Kas'im still maintains a notable edge over Meetra in lightsaber combat, with greater speed, technical skill, and showings against master duelists.

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SithRevenant

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@emperordmb:

If it's fine with you I will simply post my own reply and then we can call it a day. If not then you may assert an allotted amount of posts for the two of us, either way I'm fine with it.

1.PoD Bane > Surik as a duelist.

Oh I most certainly cannot agree with this, Sirak is certainly not superior to Atris. A Jedi Master stated to be a greater master of lightsaber combat than Master Kavar, a legendary Guardian:

Kavar isn't as much of a lightsaber virtuoso as the other Jedi masters you've met, but he makes up for this with his extremely potent Force powers.

-Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

"Kavar, huh? The famed Jedi guardian? The Mandalorians counted on the fact that it would be you, not Revan, who would lead the Jedi against us during the Mandalorian Wars." - Canderous Ordo

-Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Noting that the Jedi of this time, where weapon masters were most common, are stated to be highly skilled duelists on average:

Jedi weapon masters were most common during the time period described in Tales of the Jedi, when violence was frequently a way of life. As the Republic became more settled and less dangerous, Jedi weapon masters grew less common, though some Jedi always focused on combat more than their kindred did.

-Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

Is it battle that stirs you, to meet an enemy blade upon blade? Such is the way of the greatest of the Jedi warriors…the Weapon Masters.

-Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Only a handful were ever elevated to the rank of Jedi Weapons Master, and these were revered for their skills.

-Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

"The many wars of this era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat. Some become masters on the battlefield; others become highly skilled duelists, able to battle dark Jedi and Sith in single combat."

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide.

For Atris to be an even greater lightsaber combatant than Master Kavar, a Jedi Guardian famed for his abilities as a duelist out of all the Jedi Order and beyond, then she must be an incredible combatant. Certainly more skilled than an acolyte from the Korriban academy in Sirak.

Again technical mastery doesn't equate to dueling skill, like you said Bane stomped Sirak despite Sirak's technical mastery. Atris was no match for Meetra Surik's lightsaber prowess, despite having dozens of Sith holocrons that taught her Sith combat and Force techniques on-top of being a master of lightsaber combat.

Again, Meetra Surik is stated to be a greater duelist than Revan as of the novel by the author Drew Karpyshyn:

"This is similar to my last answer - the Exile is probably more skilled at dueling[compared to Revan]."

Source: http://i.imgur.com/zp6L2VW.png?1

The Exile being a peer of, if not more skilled than Revan, is certainly placing her on a higher level of dueling skill than Kas'im has ever faced.

2.Meetra can replenish herself by killing.

Meetra growing more powerful in the Force over a long period of time by killing, due to her nature as a wound, in absolutely no way translates to her replenishing her energy and vitality constantly. That is completely unfounded and is a massive stretch of logic.

Not to mention this is the theory of Jedi masters that Traya immediately after looked at as fools, with no comprehension of Force wounds and echos in the Force.

3.Raskta Lsu.

I have read the quotes, I have also read the entire trilogy numerous times. Many of the 'Sith Lords' at Ruusan were hastily trained apprentices. A situation that only got worse when Lord Kaan ordered all of the apprentices still in training on Korriban and at other academies, to immediately be made Sith Lords and sent to the front.

Lsu' kill count is obviously impressive, but said Sith Lords weren't exactly the cream of the crop either. Unlike the most elite Sith organization in the known galaxy, like the legion Meetra Surik fought constantly through the academy ontop of an extreme Dark Side nexus. On that note..

4.Malachor V

The Trayus Core is... the core, of the nexus that is Malachor V, the entire world is an extremely potent nexus:

"[Malachor V,] a world of cataclysmic violence and concentrated dark side energy."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords - Prima official Game Guide

"The dark side energy seething throughout the planet has created a terrain of jagged rock spires, treacherous paths, and sheer cliffs."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords - Prima official Game Guide

Also the crushing gravity vortex effected her on the surface, as the quote explains:

Traversing its surface had been agony.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

The Trayus Academy acts as a form of shelter against that. Unfortunately the corrupting and draining effects of Malachor V would only prove more potent the closer she got to the Trayus Core.

5.Force power.

Glad we agree Kas'im isn't taking any Force edge.

Whilst the Exile was caught off-guard and negatively impacted by Nyriss's Force Lightning, Lord Scourge who was completely overwhelmed by Nyriss managed the same thing:

"At the same time, Scourge lashed out with the Force, catching Nyriss flush in the center of her chest. An ordinary foe would have been thrown clear across the room, but Nyriss instinctively threw up a Force barrier to protect herself, absorbing and redirecting the brunt of the impact. Even so, Scourge’s attack knocked her off balance

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

The same result essentially, I don't think anybody can say Scourge is as powerful as Nyriss for accomplishing this though:

"Scourge felt the energy building inside her, and he knew he would be powerless to stop it. Nyriss was too powerful; her command of the dark side was too strong. "

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

So a hindered Meetra Surik being impacted negatively by Force Lightning approaching pre-orb Bane tier but still absorbing the brunt is still very powerful on Surik's part.

Your protest against the use of Meetra Surik's feats in SWTOR: Revan seems abit unsportsmanly after my immediate concession to allow you to switch from Raskta Lsu to Kas'im.

Regardless of this, Surik doesn't appear to have gotten any more powerful than she was on Malachor V, mere weeks after said battle. Noting of course she didn't commit any immense amounts of butchery against enemies to, as you profess, become more powerful. Unless of course you no longer subscribe to the notion that Meetra becomes instantaneously better after killing.

Regardless as you have said beforehand, you don't have any issue with my use of speed feats from the novel. In which case I point back to my previous post. Where I prove a hindered Meetra Surik is fully capable of performing better against Nyriss than Lord Scourge, who can amp himself off of Nyriss' stated 'ferocity'.

This is the same Lord Scourge whom can move with 'blinding' speed via the Force without said amp and move faster than patrol droids or autotargeting blaster cannons can react and shoot at.

A hindered Meetra Surik being nearly capable of holding her ground and maintaining her saber defenses against a Nyriss whom can blitz and overwhelm an amped Scourge in two strikes, whom again can move 'blindingly' fast unamped, is easily on par with being blur++ speed.

Kas'im is not taking some large speed margin, she is very close to his level and has precog to make up for it.

Another point I can drive home is taking on Traya, Traya is one shotting four Jedi Masters, Kavar, Zez-Kai Ell, Vrook Lamar and Lonna Vash. Whom have or are approaching 'extremely potent Force powers'. With the same drain she is stated to use on Meetra Surik, this puts Surik on a whole other tier from said Jedi Masters.

This would mean Surik is clearly above the power of Kas'im, whom she would take a grand total of two edges against, out of three, the other being a stalemate.

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Emperordmb

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@sithrevenant:

If it's fine with you I will simply post my own reply and then we can call it a day. If not then you may assert an allotted amount of posts for the two of us, either way I'm fine with it.

Well this is my third post responding to your third post. I think allowing us both one more post after this one for a total of four posts each seems fair.

1.PoD Bane > Surik as a duelist.

Oh I most certainly cannot agree with this, Sirak is certainly not superior to Atris. A Jedi Master stated to be a greater master of lightsaber combat than Master Kavar, a legendary Guardian:

Kavar isn't as much of a lightsaber virtuoso as the other Jedi masters you've met, but he makes up for this with his extremely potent Force powers.

-Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

"Kavar, huh? The famed Jedi guardian? The Mandalorians counted on the fact that it would be you, not Revan, who would lead the Jedi against us during the Mandalorian Wars." - Canderous Ordo

-Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Noting that the Jedi of this time, where weapon masters were most common, are stated to be highly skilled duelists on average:

Jedi weapon masters were most common during the time period described in Tales of the Jedi, when violence was frequently a way of life. As the Republic became more settled and less dangerous, Jedi weapon masters grew less common, though some Jedi always focused on combat more than their kindred did.

-Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

Is it battle that stirs you, to meet an enemy blade upon blade? Such is the way of the greatest of the Jedi warriors…the Weapon Masters.

-Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Only a handful were ever elevated to the rank of Jedi Weapons Master, and these were revered for their skills.

-Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

"The many wars of this era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat. Some become masters on the battlefield; others become highly skilled duelists, able to battle dark Jedi and Sith in single combat."

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide.

For Atris to be an even greater lightsaber combatant than Master Kavar, a Jedi Guardian famed for his abilities as a duelist out of all the Jedi Order and beyond, then she must be an incredible combatant. Certainly more skilled than an acolyte from the Korriban academy in Sirak.

First of all, the very first quote states that Kavar is more renown for his force powers than his lightsaber abilities. Secondly, the Jedi Weapons Masters quote isn't the most applicable to your argument. The quote specifically refers to Tales of the Jedi with Thon and Vodo as examples of weapons masters. Who knows what became of the weapons masters of Kun's time after Kun waged his bloody war against the Jedi. And regardless, neither Kavar nor Atris have shown anything to put them on par with the known Weapons Masters in Galactic history, and I challenge you to name a single Jedi Weapons Master in KOTOR or KOTOR II

In any case, referring to Sirak as a mere acolyte is a vast understatement of his abilities. As far as Jedi champions go, Kiel Charny was regarded as one of the champions of the Army of the Light and regarded as a Jedi General who in many ways was a true warrior that epitomized the Jedi ideal.

The New Essential Chronology
The New Essential Chronology

A student of Master Handa, in many ways he was a true warrior who epitomized the Jedi ideal.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Now Githany quickly tore through Kiel's defenses and cut off his hand in lightsaber combat, and Sirak is stated to be capable of destroying Githany in lightsaber combat.

Githany allowed the hint of a tremor into her voice. "Tomorrow morning I'm going to challenge him in the dueling ring."

"What?" Bane shook his head. "Don't be stupid, Githany! He'll destroy you!"

Perfect, she thought. "I have no choice, Bane," she said gravely. "I've already told you I don't believe in the legend of the Sith'ari. Sirak may be the top student in the school, but he's not invincible."

"He may not be the Sith'ari, but he's still too strong for you. You can't face him in the dueling ring, Githany. I've studied him; I know how good he is. You can't beat him."

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

And Sirak is already noted as a master fighter via his use of the saberstaff, and he's noted as a high level master of multiple forms by his use of Juyo. In combat, he is capable of rapidly cycling through these forms in complex patterns, and he was so far and above the other students at the academy they referred to his skills as invincible and unbeatable, even when Sirak was holding back. And he was noted to have never been defeated in the dueling ring before Bane trounced him.

Sirak rarely fought in actual combat; Bane had never even seen him in action. But he'd heard other students talk of Sirak's prowess in the dueling ring, telling wild tales of his unbeatable skills. Ever since the Zabrak had approached him on the stairs, Bane had watched his opponent during training sessions in preparation for this confrontation. And from what he'd seen, the seemingly exaggerated accounts of his prowess were all too accurate.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Now he was showing his true skill, using sequences that blended several forms at once, switching rapidly among different styles in complex patterns Bane had never seen before.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

And lastly, as far as famed lightsaber duelists go, Soara Antana is regarded as a fabled warrior, a legendary lightsaber virtuoso, and the best lightsaber instructor in a Jedi Order that includes Yoda, Mace Windu, Sora Bulq, and Cin Drallig.

Soara Antana was a legend. Her lightsaber skills had set her apart even as a young girl.

Jedi Quest: The Way of The Apprentice

Once Anakin had told him that Soara Antana, the great Jedi fighter

Jedi Quest: The Changing of The Guard

Anakin could never have imagined seeing Soara Antana, fabled warrior, in tears.

Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown

High-ranking Jedi Masters, such as lightsaber virtuoso Soara Antana, hold prestige classes for padawans in specialized halls and instruction rooms.

Star Wars: Inside the worlds of Episode II: Attack of the Clones

They did not realize how delicate it could be, how you could use it like a breath of air. Like a feather, not a stick, the best lightsaber teacher, Soara Antana, had said.

Jedi Quest: The Way of The Apprentice

A legendary lightsaber virtuoso who showed promise even as a young Padawan, she was known for her wise statements in Lightsaber combat, which included the maxim "like a feather, not a stick."

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Yet despite all of this, ten Tuk'ata were capable of giving her and seven other highly skilled Jedi trouble, while Trainee Bane cut down a dozen of them while weakened by a lack of food and sleep for several days in Korriban's climate. And this is once again the version of Bane Kas'im is capable of completely stomping using only his saberstaff.

Again technical mastery doesn't equate to dueling skill, like you said Bane stomped Sirak despite Sirak's technical mastery. Atris was no match for Meetra Surik's lightsaber prowess, despite having dozens of Sith holocrons that taught her Sith combat and Force techniques on-top of being a master of lightsaber combat.

Again, Meetra Surik is stated to be a greater duelist than Revan as of the novel by the author Drew Karpyshyn:

"This is similar to my last answer - the Exile is probably more skilled at dueling[compared to Revan]."

Source: http://i.imgur.com/zp6L2VW.png?1

The Exile being a peer of, if not more skilled than Revan, is certainly placing her on a higher level of dueling skill than Kas'im has ever faced.

That quote does not prove the Jedi Exile is a greater duelist than Revan. Karpyshyn said "probably" before delving into explaining that he wasn't taking experience or cunning into account and that he hates versus match-ups, and essentially states that he can't give a definitive answer on one character beating another character, something that runs consistent with almost all of Drew's statements. So that's a very vague and unreliable answer, and as shown in the quote you provided from Avellone, Avellone thinks Revan would kick Meetra's ass, and that she couldn't beat him even if she cut him off from the Force.

2.Meetra can replenish herself by killing.

Meetra growing more powerful in the Force over a long period of time by killing, due to her nature as a wound, in absolutely no way translates to her replenishing her energy and vitality constantly. That is completely unfounded and is a massive stretch of logic.

Not to mention this is the theory of Jedi masters that Traya immediately after looked at as fools, with no comprehension of Force wounds and echos in the Force.

Of course Traya viewed them as fools. The Jedi viewed Meetra as something that needed to be destroyed whereas Traya viewed her as salvation. There is a marked philosophical difference that explains why those Jedi masters are fools in Traya's eyes. And if that is wrong, how did Meetra regain her connection to the Force in the first place?

3.Raskta Lsu.

I have read the quotes, I have also read the entire trilogy numerous times. Many of the 'Sith Lords' at Ruusan were hastily trained apprentices. A situation that only got worse when Lord Kaan ordered all of the apprentices still in training on Korriban and at other academies, to immediately be made Sith Lords and sent to the front.

Lsu' kill count is obviously impressive, but said Sith Lords weren't exactly the cream of the crop either. Unlike the most elite Sith organization in the known galaxy, like the legion Meetra Surik fought constantly through the academy ontop of an extreme Dark Side nexus. On that note..

The Sith Lords at Ruusan were stated to be equals to Jedi Masters and each one was more powerful than an entire division of troopers, as stated in three different quotes I provided you with in my first post. And you're memory of the trilogy is clearly inaccurate if you think the students from every academy were made Sith Lords. Only the students from Korriban were made Lords, and the students from the rest of the academy, their inferiors, became either alchemically augmented force rage fueled sources of destruction, unstoppable assassins trained to kill Jedi, or acolytes on the level of Jedi Knights. Every Sith Lord was noted to be highly mentally trained, and their lightsaber skills were refined to a point far beyond what was visible with the naked eye through training sessions noted to be far more exhausting than a six hour shift in the cortosis mines on Apatros. And the Sith Lords were specifically noted to be powerful Sith Lords, as is noted as the prerequisite for partaking in the thought bomb ritual.

More than a thousand highly trained minds were focused on a single task.

Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

Soon he was breathing heavily from his exertions. Physically Kas'im's training sessions couldn't measure up to hammering a cortosis vein with a hydraulic jack for hours at a time. But they were far more exhausting in other ways. They demanded intense mental focus, an attention to detail that went far beyond what was visible to the naked eye. True mastery of the blade required a combination of both body and mind.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Yet within its pages it contained a detailed description of one of the most fearsome creations of the ancient Sith: the thought bomb.

An ancient ritual that required the combined will of many powerful Sith Lords, the thought bomb unleashed the pure destructive energy of the dark side. There were risks involved, of course.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

So these Sith Lords are not mere apprentices or incapable combatants as you are suggesting, and though Meetra fought through her opponents on a dark side nexus, they were separated in different rooms allowing Meetra to divide and conquer, while Raskta unlike Meetra fought through them with pure lightsaber skill, with no force attacks and a weak force barrier to rely on to do so.

This wing of the academy is also teeming with Sith; fortunately, the many doors help keep them separated, allowing you to divide and conquer.

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

So the two feats are not as incomparable as displays of lightsaber prowess as you are suggesting.

4.Malachor V

The Trayus Core is... the core, of the nexus that is Malachor V, the entire world is an extremely potent nexus:

"[Malachor V,] a world of cataclysmic violence and concentrated dark side energy."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords - Prima official Game Guide

"The dark side energy seething throughout the planet has created a terrain of jagged rock spires, treacherous paths, and sheer cliffs."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords - Prima official Game Guide

Also the crushing gravity vortex effected her on the surface, as the quote explains:

Traversing its surface had been agony.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

The Trayus Academy acts as a form of shelter against that. Unfortunately the corrupting and draining effects of Malachor V would only prove more potent the closer she got to the Trayus Core.

And once again, the gravity effects everyone on Malachor, including her opponents, and each room of Sith she defeated in all-out combat is not incomparable with the dozen Tuk'ata trainee Bane slaughtered with his lightsaber skills specifically.

5.Force power.

Glad we agree Kas'im isn't taking any Force edge.

Whilst the Exile was caught off-guard and negatively impacted by Nyriss's Force Lightning, Lord Scourge who was completely overwhelmed by Nyriss managed the same thing:

"At the same time, Scourge lashed out with the Force, catching Nyriss flush in the center of her chest. An ordinary foe would have been thrown clear across the room, but Nyriss instinctively threw up a Force barrier to protect herself, absorbing and redirecting the brunt of the impact. Even so, Scourge’s attack knocked her off balance

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

The same result essentially, I don't think anybody can say Scourge is as powerful as Nyriss for accomplishing this though:

"Scourge felt the energy building inside her, and he knew he would be powerless to stop it. Nyriss was too powerful; her command of the dark side was too strong. "

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

So a hindered Meetra Surik being impacted negatively by Force Lightning approaching pre-orb Bane tier but still absorbing the brunt is still very powerful on Surik's part.

I never argued that Kas'im would overwhelm Meetra with offensive Force ability, so I really don't understand why you are continuing to spend time on this point when it has no bearing on my argument. Also, actually reading the fight, Nyriss's force lightning actually had Meetra floored for a decent period of time, ie. long enough for her to monologue and gather her energy, and for Revan to jump in front of them and save them.

Dazed, he looked up just in time to see another bolt of violet lightning catch Meetra in the chest. Like Nyriss, she threw up a barrier to save herself from the worst of it, but she was still knocked from her feet.

“Did you think I would be as easy to defeat as Xedrix?” Nyriss shouted, raising her lightsaber triumphantly above her head.

The air around her began to crackle and grow hot as she gathered herself for the killing blow. Scourge felt the energy building inside her, and he knew he would be powerless to stop it. Nyriss was too powerful; her command of the dark side was too strong.

“Gaze upon me and see your doom!” she declared. “I am Darth Nyriss, Lord of the Sith. I am the conqueror of Drezzi, the destroyer of Melldia, and a member of the Dark Council!”

Scourge braced himself for the end.

Just then, Revan emerged from the cell. He had pulled the hood of his Jedi robe up to cover his head, and he wore the red-and-gray mask, hiding his face.

A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss’s hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies. Instead of leaping back into the cell to avoid the deadly attack, Revan stepped forward to intercept it.

Both hands were held in front of him, his arms fully extended at shoulder height, his thumbs touching and his fingers splayed wide. He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power.

“I am Revan reborn,” he said to Nyriss. “And before me you are nothing.”

Nyriss’s eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.

Scourge slowly clambered to his feet as Revan helped Meetra up.

So her defense against Nyriss's lightning was enough to prevent her death, but not enough to prevent her from being floored for a decent period of time.

Your protest against the use of Meetra Surik's feats in SWTOR: Revan seems abit unsportsmanly after my immediate concession to allow you to switch from Raskta Lsu to Kas'im.

Regardless of this, Surik doesn't appear to have gotten any more powerful than she was on Malachor V, mere weeks after said battle. Noting of course she didn't commit any immense amounts of butchery against enemies to, as you profess, become more powerful. Unless of course you no longer subscribe to the notion that Meetra becomes instantaneously better after killing.

Regardless, the speed feats, which I allowed you to use despite it being KOTOR II Meetra, are the only feats from the novel you have provided that are truly relevant, as once again I never argued Kas'im would overwhelm Meetra with the Force.

Regardless as you have said beforehand, you don't have any issue with my use of speed feats from the novel. In which case I point back to my previous post. Where I prove a hindered Meetra Surik is fully capable of performing better against Nyriss than Lord Scourge, who can amp himself off of Nyriss' stated 'ferocity'.

This is the same Lord Scourge whom can move with 'blinding' speed via the Force without said amp and move faster than patrol droids or autotargeting blaster cannons can react and shoot at.

A hindered Meetra Surik being nearly capable of holding her ground and maintaining her saber defenses against a Nyriss whom can blitz and overwhelm an amped Scourge in two strikes, whom again can move 'blindingly' fast unamped, is easily on par with being blur++ speed.

Kas'im is not taking some large speed margin, she is very close to his level and has precog to make up for it.

Scourge's feats of speed don't really compare to Bane moving literally faster than near Sith Masters can even see, and Meetra did not demonstrate a level of speed superiority to Scourge that is comparable to Kas'im being capable of near-speedblitzing trainee Bane, particularly not since they both took roughly the same amount of time to kill two guardsmen, with Scourge even facing the captain. So yes, I'd say there is still a profound difference in speed between the two combatants that is too large to be made up for by echani foresight even unabated, and her foresight is further mitigated by Kas'im's own familiarity with Meetra's fighting style and technique (perfection of every move and sequence plus the PROXY training perk I chose for him).

Not to mention, this is not the peak of Kas'im's capabilities with speed, as he is noted by POD Bane as fighting even faster with Jar'kai than he did with a saberstaff.

The Blademaster was unrelenting in his pressure. He seemed to wield six blades rather than two.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

I really don't need Kas'im fighting faster dual wielding than with a saberstaff to prove my point about Kas'im outstripping Meetra in speed, but it certainly accentuates it.

Another point I can drive home is taking on Traya, Traya is one shotting four Jedi Masters, Kavar, Zez-Kai Ell, Vrook Lamar and Lonna Vash. Whom have or are approaching 'extremely potent Force powers'. With the same drain she is stated to use on Meetra Surik, this puts Surik on a whole other tier from said Jedi Masters.

This would mean Surik is clearly above the power of Kas'im, whom she would take a grand total of two edges against, out of three, the other being a stalemate.

You have proven Meetra can defend against Kas'im's Force abilities, which is something I never argued Kas'im would use offensively to begin with, so it's essentially a non-point. And I have proven by way of impressive speed feats that Kas'im is substantially faster than Meetra, and in being capable of stomping trainee Bane, he has demonstrated superiority to a greater duelist than Meetra has ever defeated before.

Another point I can drive home is Kas'im being a superior combatant while wielding Jar'kai. Something to note is that every point I have made so far in this debate aside from my most recent point about speed is in regards to a saberstaff wielding Kas'im, who is ultimately inferior to a Jar'kai wielding Kas'im.

Most view Kas'im only outdueling Bane being because Bane was unfamiliar with Jar'kai, however, the internal monologueing of either Bane or the omniscient narrator make it apparent that alongside Bane's unfamiliarity, Kas'im is simply better than he is as a duelist, given that the text places praise upon Kas'im that it hadn't before, which would be unbecoming or unearned if it was only due to Bane's unfamiliarity with the technique, and that Bane attributes much of his inferiority to Kas'im's level of skill.

Within the first few passes Bane knew he couldn't win. Kas'im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Thus it seems clear to me that if Bane were actually familiar with Jar'kai, Kas'im's skill with Jar'kai would still allow him to defeat Bane in a duel, even if not as soundly.

Some may ask how this is possible if Kas'im was losing to Bane with a saberstaff, however the explanation for that is simple: Jar'kai is Kas'im's preferred form.

Of every discipline of lightsaber combat Kas'im had mastered, he chose Jar'kai to hold in reserve as his trump card. This is further reinforced by Kas'im's statements regarding secrecy, in which he implies that Jar'kai is his true strength.

The Blademaster reached out a hand and placed it on Bane's bare shoulder.

"Let this be a lesson to you all," he concluded. "Secrecy can be your greatest weapon. Keep your true strength hidden until you are ready to unleash the killing blow."

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

And this is further reinforced by Kas'im's view of how limiting the saberstaff is in regard to the options it provides.

"In combat, your mind tries to keep track of each blade separately, effectively doubling the number of possibilities. But the two blades are connected: by knowing the location of one, you are automatically aware of the location of the other. In actual practice, the double-bladed lightsaber is more limited than the traditional lightsaber. It can do more damage, but it is less precise. It requires longer, sweeping movements that don't transition well into a quick stab or thrust."

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

In this statement, Kas'im states that the saberstaff is more limited in its moves than a single-bladed lightsaber, and that two separate blades would double the number of possibilities, making the use of duel blades less limited than using a single lightsaber. For someone like Kas'im who embraces versatility through mastering every form and perfecting every move and sequence of lightsaber combat (and as demonstrated by Sirak, some of these sequences blend several forms at once), it makes sense why Kas'im would thrive at Jar'kai in particular. And thus, in regards to lightsaber combat Kas'im wielding Jar'kai is superior to POD Bane, who drove a saberstaff wielding Kas'im into a quick retreat.

Thus it is still apparent that Kas'im outmatches Meetra in martial combat, through technical skill, practical application, and sheer speed. Likewise whatever understanding of Kas'im's skills Meetra has through her wound learning abilities and echani foresight is countered by Kas'im having intimate knowledge of every lightsaber move and sequence, an aptitude for observing the natural dueling tendencies of others necessary for his position as a lightsaber instructor, and specific knowledge of Meetra's fighting style and methods from his training session with PROXY before this match.

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T4V pls, interesting debate thus far

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@emperordmb:

So I find myself stuck between countering your post or writing up a conclusive one, I will attempt to do both at once.

Well first of all, if we are using accolades so readily, Scourge says that Revan and the Exile were the greatest Jedi heroes and were 'shining with the Force':

Revan was both Jedi Master and Sith Lord. His student, the Exile, defeated the Sith Triumvirate, they were the greatest of your Jedi heroes. I had hoped to help them kill my lord Emperor. Until my vision, Jedi shining with the Force lined up to destroy him, all were swept aside. Revan and the Exile were cast at my feet.- Lord Scourge to Hero of Tython, Star Wars The Old Republic

It is also stated that only the greatest Jedi heroes have a chance to defeat Sith Lords such as Traya, Sion, and Nihilus, like Meetra Surik did:

"Amazingly dark and devastating powers are the purview of some of the greatest Sith Lords of the Knights of the Old Republic era. They devastate and consume entire worlds with a thought... Average beings stand no chance of stopping these ultra-powerful monsters of the dark side. Only the greatest heroes may ultimately defeat them."

-Power Beyond Belief: Using Ultra-Powerful Sith Lords in Saga Edition

The Hero states that Revan, the Exile and herself are capable of resisting the Emperor:

"Revan, the Exile and I were all Jedi trained. We resisted the Emperor, what Sith have done so?" - Hero of Tython to Lord Scourge, Star Wars the Old Republic

Noting how powerful Vitiate's presence is:

He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

For generations, the Emperor would remain withdrawn from society. When he finally appeared, the Emperor spoke only to the Dark Council, reducing the most powerful Sith in the Empire to trembling sycophants in his presence.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Codex Entry - The Emperor's Fallen Jedi

Revan believes that after being totally overwhelmed the last time he faced the Emperor, he thinks that he'd probably lose despite growing far more powerful since then. But with Meetra and Scourge he believes they have a real chance of victory, just after learning the Emperor had killed 9 Dark Council members alone, showing Revan believes Meetra isn't fodder, but infact a serious contribution against such a powerful opponent:

In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor?

Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

It is pretty obvious that only real powerhouses in the Force could be capable of any of this, Meetra Surik as of Malachor V however is:

[The Exile] should be a powerhouse of destruction.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

Revan states even during the Mandalorian Wars she was powerful:

"She was a powerful Jedi."

-Revan, Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Revan states that Meetra is powerful, and that back in the Mandalorian Wars he sensed great potential in Meetra, but she had far surpassed that potential:

"I was told you had been cut off from the Force but I can sense its power in you. I always knew you had great potential, but you have become far greater than I could ever have imagined."

Revan, Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Infact Revan states she gave him the strength to resist the Sith Emperor and the Dread Masters for three centuries as she resisted becoming one with the Force:

"It was she[Meetra Surik] who gave me the strength to resist all this time, I didn't realise that until now."

-Revan, Star Wars The Old Republic: Maelstrom Prison

"So many centuries. The Emperor and his Dread Masters, trying to wrench me apart, to unleash my anger and hatred."

-Revan, Star Wars: The Old Republic

Now if we were in a perfect world then obviously such accolades would make this CaV far easier, I think however some elaboration is required.

You made the point that Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik are of the same level of speed for defeating their respective pair of Imperial Guards at the same time. This is simply untrue for two major reasons:

1.Meetra did not face two, as I have just confirmed by rereading the battle thoroughly, which goes like this:

The battle begins with Captain Yarri and six Imperial Guards. One is kicked down the stairs by Revan whom rushes the throne room. Another is shot by T3.[6 left] Meetra leaps at two in the entrance as Scourge engages Captain Yarri. One splits off from Surik to intercept Revan's charge into the throne room. The one kicked down the stairs joins fight against Surik. Revan kills his interceptor.[5 left] Meetra kills one of her's.[4 left] Yarri and the three surviving guards push Surik and Scourge into the throne room. One splits off from Surik to aid Yarri vs Scourge. Meetra and Scourge kill the remainder.

Scourge is stated to face only Captain Yarri right up until they back up into the throne room. Meetra therefore has to face four by herself until then. The other two are kill early on by T3-M4 and Revan who go into the throne room. Meetra kills one off-screen, then when they retreat inside another of Surik's guards goes to help Yarri. Then the face a pair each.

Revan: 1.

T3-M4: 1

Scourge: Yarri & 1

Meetra: 3.

2. Lord Scourge was actually amplified off of Yarri and the guard he killed:

“You have a special gift. You do not just feed on the raw emotions of your foe; you gorge yourself on them. You feast on their primal fear. It amplifies your hate and anger. It fuels the power of the Force. It transforms you into an instrument of death and destruction.”

-Darth Nyriss, Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Scourge pressed his attack, calling on the dark side to transform his uncertainty and fear into white-hot rage. He felt the power coursing through him, the spark of fury deep inside him igniting into a firestorm of death and destruction.

-

At Scourge’s feet, Yarri fumbled to reclaim her weapon. The agony of her wound made her desperate and clumsy, giving Scourge time to relish her suffering.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

The dark side power emanating from within the building was undeniable; he[Lord Scourge] had felt the raw, crackling energy every day during his years as an acolyte. He had drawn on it, focusing his mind and spirit to channel the power through his own body to sustain him through the training sessions.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Meetra Surik meanwhile is suffering from the effects of the dark power of Dromund Kaas, the dark side power of the citadel, as well as the Emperor's presence reducing her connection to the Light Side of the Force:

The dark side was powerful here.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

The powerful electrical storms were a physical manifestation of the dark side power that engulfed the entire planet—a power that had brought the Sith back here a millennium before, when their very survival had been in doubt.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

But acolytes were not permitted inside the citadel, its secrets were reserved for those in direct service to the Emperor and the Dark Council.

The dark side power emanating from within the building was undeniable; he[Lord Scourge] had felt the raw, crackling energy every day during his years as an acolyte. He had drawn on it, focusing his mind and spirit to channel the power through his own body to sustain him through the training sessions.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Codex Entry - The Emperor's Fallen Jedi

It is even stated that Meetra Surik is incapable of achieving enlightenment due to the Dark Side power of the planet:

MEETRA SAT STILL and silent on the cave floor, her legs crossed and hands held at chest height, palms facing each other. She had opened herself up to the Force, looking for guidance and wisdom, but here on Dromund Kaas, where the Dark Side prevailed, it was difficult to find the inner tranquility to achieve enlightenment.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

NOTE: The Exile uses enlightenment to enhance her Force Valor to it's highest degree, which improves speed, strength, durability, and Force defense:

Force Valor... can turn the tide of any battle; this becomes even more effective when you learn Force Enlightenment.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

Clearly on Dromund Kaas she was incapable of using her augmentative power. Meaning the Exile's ability to kill three guards at the same speed in which an amplified Scourge had dispatched Yarri and one of the guards, only serves as evidence of her superiority to him in a theoretical neutral setting.

Also on the topic of Darth Nyriss, Surik and Scourge, were capable of dodging a burst of Force Lightning from the Dark Councillor:

She raised her free hand above her head and fired off another burst of lightning. Both Scourge and Meetra threw themselves clear of the deadly electrical bolt, but in doing so they gave Nyriss the early advantage.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan.

NOTE: That Nyriss' lightning was potent and fast enough to hit 'n' husk two armoured guards almost instantly:

A burst of purple lightning arched down the steps, catching both men in the chest. They barely had time to scream before they were turned into charred and smoking husks...

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

So all-in-all, off a nexus, Meetra is faster than Lord Scourge, whom unamped is 'blindingly' fast to a degree that an auto-targeting blaster cannon cannot hit him once; it was only capable of tracking his trail.

NOTE: Most hand-held blaster cannons can shoot anything between 12-200 bolts a second, the speeder mounted auto-targeting variants which fired at Lord Scourge are even better, just to make that clear.

Any edge Kas'im has in speed, isn't going to be significant enough to sway the battle against Surik. It's an edge yes but not nearly as large as he needs.

As far as Kas'im's technical mastery goes, whilst it is obviously more thorough and complete than the Exile's, it would only be marginal edges in some forms. The Exile having mastered multiple forms to a high level, on-top of mastering Juyo itself, is certainly approaching what Kas'im developed.

The mitigating factors of his edge are her two precognitive abilities that allow her to anticipate Kas'im's moves through Echani martial arts, and the Force:

MEETRA WAS WARY of a trap even before she felt the warning premonitions through the Force.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Precognition: Kreia teaches you a secret Force power that warns of impending danger.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

This gap-closing is boosted by her ability to analyse and mirror any sequence he might decide to utilise quickly:

"Excellent! I'm impressed with how quickly you've mastered this form. I always knew you were gifted."

-Kavar, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

NOTE: Obviously, mastering an entire form, which can take up to ten years for most Jedi, is far harder than learning the mere sequences of said form.

So Meetra is at least capable of nearing, if not matching Kas'im's technical knowledge with these combined factors. That renders Kas'im's (imperfect) proxy training moot, given that all he'll find out is that she uses all forms of combat like Kreia taught her:

"The Jedi practice many forms, many styles of lightsaber combat. It is good to know them, but not to rely on them."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Regarding Drew's statement, it is a representation of his intent regarding Revan and the Exile's dueling skill. Drew is making an authorial statement regarding two characters in his official book. Chris is making a conjectural claim about an incarnation of Darth Revan, whom is inaccurate to actual legends content, in a concept of a game, Kotor 3, that he never actually got to wrote. Not to mention Avellone pointed out that Revan's cunning and strategy were reasons he would win.

But if you're not taken on author statements then I can concede to rendering them N/A given they aren't canonical to Legends content.

On the point of Kavar and Council members, the fact that they are better duelists than Kavar is doesn't mean much, he isn't as much of a virtuoso as they are but still is one. It isn't very surprising as it is said all council members are master lightsaber combatants:

As a former member of the Jedi Council, Darth Traya[Atris] is a master of lightsaber combat.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

But again Atris as Darth Traya has combat techniques from dozens of Sith holocrons to control:

You confront her in her meditation chamber, where it's revealed that Traya has gathered dozens of Sith holocrons.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

"All this collected knowledge, all these teachings of combat and the Force - they are mine to command."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

That gives her an exceptional accumulative knowledge of martial combat, but is still no match for the Exile:

Atris's pride is no match for the Jedi Exile's lightsaber prowess.

-Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide

In terms of the physicality of the battle, Meetra has an undoubted physical durability edge as displayed on the surface of Malachor V when she fought Storm Beasts:

Physically, the intense gravity of the world had held her in its crushing grip, leaving her gasping for breath.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Her stamina was also displayed in battle:

Surviving the numerous battles against dark Jedi and Sith commandos requires controlled aggression and endurance."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prime Official Game Guide

As well as through the Force, where she relied on it for several days without food or rest; right after surviving Nathema:

For several days she pored through the archives stopping neither to eat nor to sleep. Every few hours she refreshed herself with a quick meditation break, drawing on the Force to replenish her faded stores of energy and mental focus so she could continue her work.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Not to mention she can restore her vitality and energy throughout their combat:

One of the most important is Heal; apart from medpacs or the passage of time, it’s the only way to replenish your vitality.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

She is also entirely capable of attacking him offensively through the Force. She knows the Whirlwind technique, and her telekinesis is capable of hurtling people and groups of Kynrath fast enough to kill them:

As he fell to the ground, Meetra thrust her free hand out toward the next closest soldier, palm open. The woman flew backward, lifted off her feet and hurtled across the cave by the Force until she slammed into the rock face of the far wall. She slid to the ground, dead.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

One blast sends the hatchlings hurtling into the walls.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

She is even capable of disrupting Traya's telekinetic influence on her lightsabers with her own teleknesis:

Traya uses vast telekinetic powers to wield a trio of lightsabers against her,

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Force Wave can stun Kreia's floating lightsabers.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

As far as Meetra being replenished by killing in combat, it really doesn't make sense with the source you provided. Because they are talking about a gradual increase in power that restores her connection to the Force over a stretch of months that started at Peragus:

"You have almost completely restored your connection to the Force, but there are dark places, echoes within you still."

-Zez-Kai Ell, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

So no, she isn't somehow replenished constantly by killing.

Meetra has a strong power edge over Kas'im and can exploit that against him, as a master of Form VI: Niman. Whereas Kas'im has lesser edges in martial technique and physical speed. It is a very close fight but Surik's Force edge is the largest here, and Kas'im has no counter for it, thus the Jedi Exile wins.

All of that without a single bit of Carthage's Bane trilogy nexus w^nk.

Good debating DMB, may the best underrated character win.

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Emperordmb

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#23  Edited By Emperordmb

@sithrevenant:

So I find myself stuck between countering your post or writing up a conclusive one, I will attempt to do both at once.

Seems the eloquent choice.

Well first of all, if we are using accolades so readily, Scourge says that Revan and the Exile were the greatest Jedi heroes and were 'shining with the Force':

Revan was both Jedi Master and Sith Lord. His student, the Exile, defeated the Sith Triumvirate, they were the greatest of your Jedi heroes. I had hoped to help them kill my lord Emperor. Until my vision, Jedi shining with the Force lined up to destroy him, all were swept aside. Revan and the Exile were cast at my feet.- Lord Scourge to Hero of Tython, Star Wars The Old Republic

It is also stated that only the greatest Jedi heroes have a chance to defeat Sith Lords such as Traya, Sion, and Nihilus, like Meetra Surik did:

"Amazingly dark and devastating powers are the purview of some of the greatest Sith Lords of the Knights of the Old Republic era. They devastate and consume entire worlds with a thought... Average beings stand no chance of stopping these ultra-powerful monsters of the dark side. Only the greatest heroes may ultimately defeat them."

-Power Beyond Belief: Using Ultra-Powerful Sith Lords in Saga Edition

An excellent accolade, however first of all, I can't think of a single instant where Scourge has encountered a Jedi aside from Revan, Meetra, or HOT that is on Kas'im's level, or even any notable Jedi heroes for that matter. Come to think of it, I also can't think of a single duelist either Jedi or Sith that Scourge has come across that on or above Kas'im's level, excluding the aforementioned characters. Also, it comes to question whether or not they were considered the greatest Jedi heroes because of their combative prowess, or their success and mark on history. If it's the latter, given the events of KOTOR and KOTOR II it would make sense, as they really don't have too much competition there given the marks they have both left on history.

All in all, it's an impressive accolade, but not one that puts Meetra definitively above Kas'im.

The Hero states that Revan, the Exile and herself are capable of resisting the Emperor:

"Revan, the Exile and I were all Jedi trained. We resisted the Emperor, what Sith have done so?" - Hero of Tython to Lord Scourge, Star Wars the Old Republic

Noting how powerful Vitiate's presence is:

He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

For generations, the Emperor would remain withdrawn from society. When he finally appeared, the Emperor spoke only to the Dark Council, reducing the most powerful Sith in the Empire to trembling sycophants in his presence.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Codex Entry - The Emperor's Fallen Jedi

Revan believes that after being totally overwhelmed the last time he faced the Emperor, he thinks that he'd probably lose despite growing far more powerful since then. But with Meetra and Scourge he believes they have a real chance of victory, just after learning the Emperor had killed 9 Dark Council members alone, showing Revan believes Meetra isn't fodder, but infact a serious contribution against such a powerful opponent:

In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor?

Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

It is pretty obvious that only real powerhouses in the Force could be capable of any of this, Meetra Surik as of Malachor V however is:

[The Exile] should be a powerhouse of destruction.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

Revan states even during the Mandalorian Wars she was powerful:

"She was a powerful Jedi."

-Revan, Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Revan states that Meetra is powerful, and that back in the Mandalorian Wars he sensed great potential in Meetra, but she had far surpassed that potential:

"I was told you had been cut off from the Force but I can sense its power in you. I always knew you had great potential, but you have become far greater than I could ever have imagined."

Revan, Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

They are specifically capable of resisting the Emperor because of a technique taught to them by Revan.

“This time I know his tricks and tactics,” Revan assured them. “I can shield my mind from being dominated by his will, and I can show you how to do the same.”

The Old Republic: Revan

In fact, without that technique, we all know what happened to Scourge.

Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor’s mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.

It was over as quickly as it had begun, the awful vision retreating into his subconscious like a repressed memory as Scourge picked himself up off the floor.

The Old Republic: Revan

Not to mention, no mention of Meetra resisting Vitiate's influence is ever made in the source material, so HOT's musings 300 years later may not be the most reliable source for this. Nor does telepathic resistance prove any edge Meetra would have over Kas'im.

Infact Revan states she gave him the strength to resist the Sith Emperor and the Dread Masters for three centuries as she resisted becoming one with the Force:

"It was she[Meetra Surik] who gave me the strength to resist all this time, I didn't realise that until now."

-Revan, Star Wars The Old Republic: Maelstrom Prison

"So many centuries. The Emperor and his Dread Masters, trying to wrench me apart, to unleash my anger and hatred."

-Revan, Star Wars: The Old Republic

Yes, she as a Force ghost aided Revan's already insanely considerable willpower in his fight against Vitiate and the Dread Masters, though she was free from telepathic attack herself that entire time, as a Force ghost beyond the reach of any of Revan's assailants. Once again, telepathically aiding Revan as a ghost with no other concerns or worries has no bearing on this fight with Kas'im, as neither has shown any combative use of telepathy against opposing Force wielders.

You made the point that Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik are of the same level of speed for defeating their respective pair of Imperial Guards at the same time. This is simply untrue for two major reasons:

1.Meetra did not face two, as I have just confirmed by rereading the battle thoroughly, which goes like this:

The battle begins with Captain Yarri and six Imperial Guards. One is kicked down the stairs by Revan whom rushes the throne room. Another is shot by T3.[6 left] Meetra leaps at two in the entrance as Scourge engages Captain Yarri. One splits off from Surik to intercept Revan's charge into the throne room. The one kicked down the stairs joins fight against Surik. Revan kills his interceptor.[5 left] Meetra kills one of her's.[4 left] Yarri and the three surviving guards push Surik and Scourge into the throne room. One splits off from Surik to aid Yarri vs Scourge. Meetra and Scourge kill the remainder.

Scourge is stated to face only Captain Yarri right up until they back up into the throne room. Meetra therefore has to face four by herself until then. The other two are kill early on by T3-M4 and Revan who go into the throne room. Meetra kills one off-screen, then when they retreat inside another of Surik's guards goes to help Yarri. Then the face a pair each.

Revan: 1.

T3-M4: 1

Scourge: Yarri & 1

Meetra: 3.

2. Lord Scourge was actually amplified off of Yarri and the guard he killed:

“You have a special gift. You do not just feed on the raw emotions of your foe; you gorge yourself on them. You feast on their primal fear. It amplifies your hate and anger. It fuels the power of the Force. It transforms you into an instrument of death and destruction.”

-Darth Nyriss, Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Scourge pressed his attack, calling on the dark side to transform his uncertainty and fear into white-hot rage. He felt the power coursing through him, the spark of fury deep inside him igniting into a firestorm of death and destruction.

-

At Scourge’s feet, Yarri fumbled to reclaim her weapon. The agony of her wound made her desperate and clumsy, giving Scourge time to relish her suffering.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

The dark side power emanating from within the building was undeniable; he[Lord Scourge] had felt the raw, crackling energy every day during his years as an acolyte. He had drawn on it, focusing his mind and spirit to channel the power through his own body to sustain him through the training sessions.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Meetra Surik meanwhile is suffering from the effects of the dark power of Dromund Kaas, the dark side power of the citadel, as well as the Emperor's presence reducing her connection to the Light Side of the Force:

The dark side was powerful here.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

The powerful electrical storms were a physical manifestation of the dark side power that engulfed the entire planet—a power that had brought the Sith back here a millennium before, when their very survival had been in doubt.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

But acolytes were not permitted inside the citadel, its secrets were reserved for those in direct service to the Emperor and the Dark Council.

The dark side power emanating from within the building was undeniable; he[Lord Scourge] had felt the raw, crackling energy every day during his years as an acolyte. He had drawn on it, focusing his mind and spirit to channel the power through his own body to sustain him through the training sessions.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Codex Entry - The Emperor's Fallen Jedi

It is even stated that Meetra Surik is incapable of achieving enlightenment due to the Dark Side power of the planet:

MEETRA SAT STILL and silent on the cave floor, her legs crossed and hands held at chest height, palms facing each other. She had opened herself up to the Force, looking for guidance and wisdom, but here on Dromund Kaas, where the Dark Side prevailed, it was difficult to find the inner tranquility to achieve enlightenment.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

NOTE: The Exile uses enlightenment to enhance her Force Valor to it's highest degree, which improves speed, strength, durability, and Force defense:

Force Valor... can turn the tide of any battle; this becomes even more effective when you learn Force Enlightenment.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

Clearly on Dromund Kaas she was incapable of using her augmentative power. Meaning the Exile's ability to kill three guards at the same speed in which an amplified Scourge had dispatched Yarri and one of the guards, only serves as evidence of her superiority to him in a theoretical neutral setting.

This is a fair point, however, the gap in speed between Scourge and Meetra is still not as profound as the gap between Kas'im and trainee Bane, who himself has superior speed feats than Scourge. Also, this "enlightenment" she refers to seems to be just enlightenment in general, knowledge and understanding the Force can provide through meditation, rather than the combative ability known as "Force Enlightenment." She was stated to be looking for guidance and wisdom, and the word "enlightenment" is not exclusive to that power, which she could use on Malachor V well enough evidently.

Also on the topic of Darth Nyriss, Surik and Scourge, were capable of dodging a burst of Force Lightning from the Dark Councillor:

She raised her free hand above her head and fired off another burst of lightning. Both Scourge and Meetra threw themselves clear of the deadly electrical bolt, but in doing so they gave Nyriss the early advantage.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan.

NOTE: That Nyriss' lightning was potent and fast enough to hit 'n' husk two armoured guards almost instantly:

A burst of purple lightning arched down the steps, catching both men in the chest. They barely had time to scream before they were turned into charred and smoking husks...

The guards still had time to scream before they died, even if barely, and Bane moved faster than a room of highly trained Force sensitives could even perceive, which is still a superior speed feat given that the non-force sensitive guards had time to react to Nyriss's lightning, and Bane's speed was beyond the perception of trained Force wielders.

So all-in-all, off a nexus, Meetra is faster than Lord Scourge, whom unamped is 'blindingly' fast to a degree that an auto-targeting blaster cannon cannot hit him once; it was only capable of tracking his trail.

NOTE: Most hand-held blaster cannons can shoot anything between 12-200 bolts a second, the speeder mounted auto-targeting variants which fired at Lord Scourge are even better, just to make that clear.

Any edge Kas'im has in speed, isn't going to be significant enough to sway the battle against Surik. It's an edge yes but not nearly as large as he needs.

An impressive feat, however without the technical specifications, it doesn't make much sense to assume it's rate of fire, which is ultimately irrelevant, as Scourge merely had to outrun the speed at which the turret could track him. If Scourge was truly fast enough to dodge that many blasterbolts per second and not merely outrun the tracking of the autoturret, he wouldn't have been shot several times by a single human shooter later on when he was trying to evade her, particularly given whatever amp he would gain from her desperate emotions and the fear and death of the first shooter.

Before he could fire, Scourge slashed his lightsaber diagonally across his enemy’s torso.

As the man’s corpse toppled to the ground, Scourge turned his attention back to the first mercenary. By this time she had spun to face him, and as her partner went down she unloaded another series of shots, forcing Scourge to duck behind the speeder for cover.

This time several of her blasts found their mark. Scourge’s armor absorbed the worst of the attack, but he felt a searing pain in his shoulder as a small amount of the particle beam energy found its way through a joint in his armor to scorch his flesh.

The Old Republic Revan

So really this feat is nothing that puts Scourges speed on the level of Trainee Bane, who Kas'im wielding a saberstaff could near blitz, and as has been pointed out earlier Kas'im has a higher striking speed while wielding Jar'kai than he does with a saberstaff. With all of that in mind, Meetra still doesn't compare to Kas'im in speed.

As far as Kas'im's technical mastery goes, whilst it is obviously more thorough and complete than the Exile's, it would only be marginal edges in some forms. The Exile having mastered multiple forms to a high level, on-top of mastering Juyo itself, is certainly approaching what Kas'im developed.

The mitigating factors of his edge are her two precognitive abilities that allow her to anticipate Kas'im's moves through Echani martial arts, and the Force:

MEETRA WAS WARY of a trap even before she felt the warning premonitions through the Force.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Precognition: Kreia teaches you a secret Force power that warns of impending danger.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

This gap-closing is boosted by her ability to analyse and mirror any sequence he might decide to utilise quickly:

"Excellent! I'm impressed with how quickly you've mastered this form. I always knew you were gifted."

-Kavar, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

NOTE: Obviously, mastering an entire form, which can take up to ten years for most Jedi, is far harder than learning the mere sequences of said form.

So Meetra is at least capable of nearing, if not matching Kas'im's technical knowledge with these combined factors. That renders Kas'im's (imperfect) proxy training moot, given that all he'll find out is that she uses all forms of combat like Kreia taught her:

"The Jedi practice many forms, many styles of lightsaber combat. It is good to know them, but not to rely on them."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Your statement that mastering multiple forms to a high level is approaching Kas'im's level of technical mastery, or that Kas'im's perfection of every move and sequence in lightsaber combat is easier than mastering forms is blatantly wrong, as demonstrated by the description of Kas'im's lightsaber mastery.

After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy.

As is blatantly obvious from this quote, taking one's level of lightsaber mastery to the extent Kas'im has taken his is harder and takes much longer than it takes to simply master all seven forms of lightsaber combat. The idea that Meetra can replicate the perfection achieved by Kas'im through decades of practice and application when she still needs to train and practice to hone her skill with the techniques she learns from observation is unfounded.

Regarding Drew's statement, it is a representation of his intent regarding Revan and the Exile's dueling skill. Drew is making an authorial statement regarding two characters in his official book. Chris is making a conjectural claim about an incarnation of Darth Revan, whom is inaccurate to actual legends content, in a concept of a game, Kotor 3, that he never actually got to wrote. Not to mention Avellone pointed out that Revan's cunning and strategy were reasons he would win.

But if you're not taken on author statements then I can concede to rendering them N/A given they aren't canonical to Legends content.

Except Drew wasn't taking cunning or experience into account (both of which factor into practical application of lightsaber combat), he said "probably," he said such questions really couldn't be answered, it's uncertain if he was taking the Force's influence on martial combat into account, and if he was referring to technical skill Kas'im has Revan beat in that category as well. So with that and the conceded lack of canonicity of author statements, this accolade really doesn't put Meetra above Kas'im or Revan in lightsaber combat.

On the point of Kavar and Council members, the fact that they are better duelists than Kavar is doesn't mean much, he isn't as much of a virtuoso as they are but still is one. It isn't very surprising as it is said all council members are master lightsaber combatants:

As a former member of the Jedi Council, Darth Traya[Atris] is a master of lightsaber combat.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

But again Atris as Darth Traya has combat techniques from dozens of Sith holocrons to control:

You confront her in her meditation chamber, where it's revealed that Traya has gathered dozens of Sith holocrons.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

"All this collected knowledge, all these teachings of combat and the Force - they are mine to command."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

That gives her an exceptional accumulative knowledge of martial combat, but is still no match for the Exile:

Atris's pride is no match for the Jedi Exile's lightsaber prowess.

-Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide

Right and Sirak too is a master lightsaber combatant and a high level master of multiple forms capable of blending several of them at once, who is capable of destroying someone (Githany) in lightsaber combat who quickly overwhelmed the defenses of a true warrior who epitomized the Jedi ideal and one of the Jedi's greatest champions (Kiel Charny), and Sirak was an undefeated duelist before trainee Bane stomped him. Likewise, large groups of Tuk'ata have given groups of some of the Jedi's greatest duelists trouble before, and Bane soloed a dozen of them that had him surrounded with only his ability in martial combat, and this was while he was tired and hungry. Despite all of this, Kas'im was still capable of stomping him in lightsaber combat.

In terms of the physicality of the battle, Meetra has an undoubted physical durability edge as displayed on the surface of Malachor V when she fought Storm Beasts:

Physically, the intense gravity of the world had held her in its crushing grip, leaving her gasping for breath.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Her stamina was also displayed in battle:

Surviving the numerous battles against dark Jedi and Sith commandos requires controlled aggression and endurance."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prime Official Game Guide

As well as through the Force, where she relied on it for several days without food or rest; right after surviving Nathema:

For several days she pored through the archives stopping neither to eat nor to sleep. Every few hours she refreshed herself with a quick meditation break, drawing on the Force to replenish her faded stores of energy and mental focus so she could continue her work.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Not to mention she can restore her vitality and energy throughout their combat:

One of the most important is Heal; apart from medpacs or the passage of time, it’s the only way to replenish your vitality.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

Kas'im's durability is nothing to scoff at either. The guy was alive enough to scream after being buried by several tons of stone.

Unfortunately, he couldn't shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas'im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble.

But regardless of this, neither of them have the durability to repel lightsaber strikes with their flesh, so Kas'im's edge in lightsaber combat would still allow him the victory, and given the breadth of Kas'im's superiority in both lightsaber combat and in speed, he would overwhelm Meetra in lightsaber combat before endurance really becomes an issue.

As far as Meetra being replenished by killing in combat, it really doesn't make sense with the source you provided. Because they are talking about a gradual increase in power that restores her connection to the Force over a stretch of months that started at Peragus:

"You have almost completely restored your connection to the Force, but there are dark places, echoes within you still."

-Zez-Kai Ell, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

So no, she isn't somehow replenished constantly by killing.

This is answered by Meetra's ability to replenish her vitality with the Force as you have so graciously provided the quote for in your previous point. But ultimately, in a 1v1 confrontation, Meetra would lack the time to bring this replenishing ability to bear, particularly given Kas'im's edge in speed.

She is also entirely capable of attacking him offensively through the Force. She knows the Whirlwind technique, and her telekinesis is capable of hurtling people and groups of Kynrath fast enough to kill them:

As he fell to the ground, Meetra thrust her free hand out toward the next closest soldier, palm open. The woman flew backward, lifted off her feet and hurtled across the cave by the Force until she slammed into the rock face of the far wall. She slid to the ground, dead.

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

One blast sends the hatchlings hurtling into the walls.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

She is even capable of disrupting Traya's telekinetic influence on her lightsabers with her own teleknesis:

Traya uses vast telekinetic powers to wield a trio of lightsabers against her,

-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Force Wave can stun Kreia's floating lightsabers.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

Yes and a single telekinetic attack from trainee Bane injured most of a Tuk'ata pack of half a dozen (not the same pack he sabersoloed, that was a different one).

The first time he'd driven them away with the Force, seizing the body of the alpha male and hurling it into the rest of the pack, injuring several of the beasts. They'd scurried away with high-pitched howls that had sent shivers down his spine. The second attack had been far bloodier. While exploring one of the most recent tombs he'd found himself surrounded by a dozen tuk'ata, a pack twice the size of the first.

And Tuk'ata are capable of fighting through lightsaber strikes.

One massive claw swiped through the air. Anakin caught it with his lightsaber. The beast howled. He had only angered it. He needed to hit a vulnerable spot.

Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown

Obi-Wan advanced, striking the tuk'ata with a series of hard blows. The creature staggered.

Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown

Soara and Darra, working together in their usual flawless teamwork, had somehow kept two tuk'ata at bay. Wounded, the two counterattacked.

Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown

Likewise Bane was noted to be the most powerful Dark Lord in centuries, and was noted while weakened by poison to be more powerful than anything the Huntress had ever seen or felt before (she was looking back on POD Bane with her visions), despite the Huntress feeling the dark side power of Ambria and Lake Naath, as well as seeing the devastation of Ambria in a vision.

No Caption Provided

Even though they were decades removed from the encounter, the Iktotchi sensed the raw power of the dark side emanating from him. It was like nothing she had seen or felt before, both terrifying and exhilarating

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

Just for reference, here is the devastation of Ambria the Huntress previously observed:

Thousands of years ago Ambria had been a world of verdant forests, brimming with life and the power of the Force. But the lush vegetation had been devastated when a Sith sorceress tried-and failed-to bend the entire planet to her will through a powerful ritual. Unable to control the violent energies of the dark side, she was destroyed by her own spell, as was the landscape of the entire planet.

For centuries the corruption of the failed ritual influenced all life on Ambria, transforming the once beautiful world into a nightmare of stunted, poisonous vegetation and twisted, mutated beasts. Eventually the dark side energies released by the Sith sorceress were trapped in a great lake near the planet's equator by a Jedi Master named Thon, but the damage was too widespread for the world to ever be completely healed.

The Iktotchi knew all this not because she had studied the planet's history, however. Her connection to the Force allowed her to see things.

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

And despite Bane's power, Kas'im was capable of blocking a Force attack from Bane that would've otherwise liquidated him.

There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

With this in mind, it is unlikely Meetra would gain an edge through her offensive force abilities, as Kas'im has two lightsaber blades to block lightning with, and a powerful Force barrier to block telekinesis with.

Conclusion

So here is an overview of why I believe I have won the debate, and why Kas'im would defeat Meetra Surrik in combat and advance to the next round.

I never made the argument that Kas'im would overwhelm Meetra with his Force abilities, and when SithRevenant first brought up Meetra's telekinetic abilities in her final post, I sufficiently countered the idea of Meetra gaining a telekinetic edge via his ability to shield against an extremely powerful telekinetic attack from POD Bane, who himself is a very powerful combative force wielder.

This means that the battle between Kas'im and Meetra will be determined by martial combat, which is where Kas'im takes a sizable edge.

I have already proven that Kas'im possesses noticeably greater technical skill than Meetra, with my opponent even conceding he possesses greater technical skill (though not to the extent I'm arguing), and I have countered the idea of Meetra replicating Kas'im's level of technical mastery mid-duel with proof that the amount of time it takes to refine ones skills from mastery of all seven forms to where Kas'im has taken his skills takes more time than it does to master all seven forms to begin with. Likewise Meetra is still shown needing practice and training to refine whatever skills she picks up from observation, the quotes for which being supplied in this debate by my opponent ironically enough.

My opponent has tried to argue against technical mastery being an impactful edge for Kas'im by suggesting that Meetra has a superior practical application of lightsaber combat, but this is countered sufficiently by Kas'im's ability to stomp Bane in lightsaber combat with his saberstaff at a point at which Bane sabersoloed a dozen Tuk'ata and stomped Sirak in lightsaber combat, with Bane at this point in time being a better duelist than Meetra has come across. Likewise, once Bane grows skilled enough to drive a saberstaff wielding Kas'im into a retreat, he still concedes inferiority in martial combat ability to a Jar'kai wielding Kas'im that goes beyond Bane's own unfamiliarity with the form, which makes sense given that Jar'kai is Kas'im's preferred fighting style and provides more options than wielding a saberstaff. So to put it bluntly, Jar'Kai Kas'im>POD Bane>Saberstaff Kas'im>>>Trainee Bane>Anyone Meetra has ever defeated, all in regards to lightsaber combat. Kas'im still takes a clear edge in practical application of lightsaber combat.

My opponent also conceded that Kas'im is Meetra Surik's superior in speed, though not to the same extent that I am arguing. She has argued Meetra's speed off of scaling from Meetra being faster than Scourge who is able to evade blasterfire from a turret, however Scourge did this by outpacing the speed at which the turret could track him, and a few paragraphs later he was shot several times in the chest by a single non-force sensitive shooter. Scourge's speed feats as of the Revan novel don't measure up to trainee Bane moving faster than a room of near-Sith masters can even perceive, and as I have demonstrated with quotes, Kas'im would've been capable of near-blitzing Bane at that point in time with a saberstaff. This proves a notable speed superiority on Kas'im's side even with a saberstaff, and as I have already proven, he fights even faster when dual wielding.

My opponent makes a fair point about Meetra's durability and endurance, however Kas'im also has great durability, and neither of their durabilities will save them from the blade of a lightsaber. Likewise, though I freely concede Meetra has an edge in endurance, the extent by which Kas'im is Meetra's superior in technical skill, practical application, and speed means this fight would be over before endurance really becomes an issue for Kas'im.

So in conclusion, offensive use of Force abilities won't play much of a role in this fight, leaving the outcome as a result of martial combat. And in martial combat, Kas'im outstrips Meetra in speed, technical skill, and practical application to the extent at which he'd finish her off before she can gain any edge through endurance.

Good debating DMB, may the best underrated character win.

Yes, may the underrated rise from the ashes of their oppressors and all that.

@banthabot you may commence tagging people for votes.

Edit: And viewers...

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Emperordmb

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#25  Edited By KJ27

My vote goes to @emperordmb due to a much more well-rounded and better constructed argument.

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ForklifterMatt

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@kj27 said:

My vote goes to @emperordmb due to a much more well-rounded and better constructed argument.

This, I'm voting for @emperordmb

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TheMuser

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A very interesting debate, my vote goes to @emperordmb a excellent argument all around, he did a Great job proving kas'im dueling prowess.

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Brightsteel

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Brightsteel

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@banthabot:

It's a vote towards no contest, therefore it's a vote.

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DarkDefender

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I would have voted for you Sith if you hadn't conceded the technical and speed advantage.

Voting for @emperordmb.

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echostarlord117

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@emperordmb get's my vote.

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Current tally

Eperordmb 5

Sithrevenant 0

No contest 1

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WollfMyth209

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I'm voting for @emperordmb That closer really brought things around to his favour drastically. He's had the lead through this entire debate, IMHO. Plus he didn't rely on so much quote-spam.

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deactivated-5a4a9a7745a28

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I guess I can't vote anymore?

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WollfMyth209

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@darthduelist9: I'm fairly certain anyone can vote until Bantha says otherwise.

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@wollfmyth209: Allright.

Then I'll vote for EmperorDMB, he just impressed me more but SithRevenant's efforts were definitely good!