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#1 Edited by Rowso77 (137 posts) - - Show Bio
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Scenario#: Frank has heard rumours about some criminal killing off heroes, he ends up taking things into his own hands and intends to pay him a visit.

Morals on

Manga and Anime Stain

616 Frank Castle Punisher

Punisher will be equipped with a machete, a double barrel shotgun, two grenades,a smoke grenade, a bullet proof vest, and an M16.

Frank is aware of Stain's quirk

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Takes place here

Stain is 30 feet away from Frank

Both start off in cover

Who wins?

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#2 Posted by FlashingSabre (3768 posts) - - Show Bio

Stain. He just needs a graze to win, and Punisher isn't fast enough to dodge all of his blades.

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#3 Posted by HigherPower (12088 posts) - - Show Bio

Tbh, I don't even think Stain is fast enough to bullet time.

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#4 Edited by IndomitableRegal (15388 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like Stain shouldn't be pitted against typical street levelers. Granted I only saw like 1 scene from him, but I feel confident he'd win this pretty easily.

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#5 Posted by Iragexcudder (9464 posts) - - Show Bio

Stain almost immediately

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#6 Edited by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

Stain. While he has no feats of dodging bullets I think the feats he displayed feats to prove he probably could.

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#7 Posted by Sy8000 (34967 posts) - - Show Bio

Punisher shoots him.

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#8 Posted by HigherPower (12088 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Stain. While he has no feats of dodging bullets I think the feats he displayed prove he probably could.

Based on what? The fact that he's animated fast? Stain doesn't have any quantifiable speed feats to suggest he can dodge bullets.

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#9 Edited by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Stain. While he has no feats of dodging bullets I think the feats he displayed prove he probably could.

Based on what? The fact that he's animated fast? Stain doesn't have any quantifiable speed feats to suggest he can dodge bullets.

I don't agree. Stain showed he was a quick and agile fighter when he was dodging attacks from Todorki. Yes I realize Todoroki's attacks aren't bullets but there not slow, and his attacks are much larger than bullets. Just because he hasn't faced bullets doesn't mean we should assume he is helpess against anyone armed with a gun.

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#10 Edited by HigherPower (12088 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Just stating that Todoroki's attacks aren't "slow" doesn't help in a situation like this, because we need Stain to operate at a proven speed in order for him to win. Chizome is easily faster than peak human and is FTE based on actual feats, but there isn't anything substantial or convincing to suggest he can dodge rounds from semi-automatic firearms like the M16.

I also oppose your statement that "we shouldn't assume he's helpless against anyone armed with a gun" wholeheartedly. We are supposed to assume he is helpless against guns, and that he will get tagged by bullets unless he's actually presented a feat to disprove that. And so far, nothing he's done or any feat you've presented changes that.

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#11 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan:

Just stating that Todoroki's attacks aren't "slow" doesn't help in a situation like this, because we need Stain to operate at a proven speed in order for him to win.

Well we do know Todoroki can create a giant wall of ice in the blink of an eye.

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Chizome is easily faster than peak human and is FTE based on actual feats, but there isn't anything substantial or convincing to suggest he can dodge rounds from semi-automatic firearms like an M16.

No street leveler dodges each individual bullets of an M16. That doesn't mean he can't avoid punishers aim. Characters way slower have aim dodged before. Granted Punisher isn't a fodder marksman but I think Stain proved he is fast enough to avoid punishers aim.

I also oppose wholeheartedly your statement that "we shouldn't assume he's helpless against anyone armed with a gun". We are supposed to assume he is helpless against guns, and will get tagged by bullets unless he's actually presented a feat to disprove that. And so far, nothing he's done or any feat you've presented changes that.

That is called appealing to ignorance. Just because a character has not faced a gun user doesn't mean they aren't capable. Evidence works both ways. You also need to actually prove Stain can't deal with gun users. Just saying he's never faced one isn't enough. If you want to argue Frank himself can specifically shoot him than we can discuss that but than you need to post feats of Frank shooting characters similarly as fast. Best example which comes to mind would be wolverine however I think one key difference between wolverine and Stain is the the fact that Stain also has throwing knives.

I honestly think if you put someone like captain america, batman, or daredevil they would struggle to evade the attacks Stain did. They might be able to do it but they wouldn't do it easily. Which to me would suggest that Stain probably has similar levels of speed and agility.

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#12 Edited by HigherPower (12088 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Well we do know Todoroki can create a giant wall of ice in the blink of an eye.

And this means what exactly? Todoroki and co. fought Stain in an alley way, none of his AOE flash freeze attempts were that large-- and even when equating the possible speeds of the two attacks (which is what I think you're doing) it's still inferior to basic bullet timing; meaning it holds no weight as an argument.

No street leveler dodges each individual bullets of an M16. That doesn't mean he can't avoid punishers aim. Characters way slower have aim dodged before. Granted Punisher isn't a fodder marksman but I think Stain proved he is fast enough to avoid punishers aim.

While this a quality counter, aim-dodging long range firearms only puts Chizome at a disadvantage, considering his most promising path to victory is closing the distance between him and Frank in order to use Bloodcurdle. This means the second he's close enough he would get shot in the face rather easily, acknowledging that Frank's guard may be up and he's poised to fire. Also, staying at a distance grants Punisher the opportunity to use the other weapons he has access to here, such as the grenades he's equipped with; allowing him to throw Stain off once detonated near him enabling for an easier shot.

That is called appealing to ignorance. Just because a character has not faced a gun user doesn't mean they aren't capable.

Not at all. You're overlooking one crucial piece of information—the fact Stain doesn't have any speed feats to suggest he can dodge bullets from a gun in the first place. So it's perfectly reasonable for me to say he's incapable of doing so, because we've seen him perform at his best and nothing he's shown proves he can. Your statement would hold true if Stain had feats to say he was subsonic up to mach 1 or 2, and then you stated that bullet timing would be possible for him—but he doesn't, so it's not.

Evidence works both ways. You also need to actually prove Stain can't deal with gun users. Just saying he's never faced one isn't enough.

Easy. The fact that he was tagged repeatedly by subsonic characters is proof in itself.

If you want to argue Frank himself can specifically shoot him than we can discuss that but than you need to post feats of Frank shooting characters similarly as fast. Best example which comes to mind would be wolverine however I think one key difference between wolverine and Stain is the the fact that Stain also has throwing knives. I honestly think if you put someone like captain america, batman, or daredevil they would struggle to evade the attacks Stain did. They might be able to do it but they wouldn't do it easily. Which to me would suggest that Stain probably has similar levels of speed and agility.

Addressing the main bulk of your statement, it is illogical to say that I need to prove Frank can shoot characters of Stain's speed, when he's equipped with weapons that have bullets that travel at a given speed. And the fact that it was YOU who stated Stain can bullet time w/o supporting evidence means the burden of proof is on you to back up that statement. As for the latter half, pretty sure characters like Daredevil and people of his speed wouldn't have trouble dodging Post-Field training arc Todoroki's attacks, considering he's slower than things they've already reacted to.

This will change once you catch up to the School Trip arc though, Todoroki's gets a crazy AOE feat during the battle with Moonfish.

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#13 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan:

And this means what exactly? Todoroki and co. fought Stain in an alley way, none of his AOE flash freeze attempts were that large-- and even when equating the possible speeds of the two attacks (which is what I think you're doing) it's still inferior to basic bullet timing; meaning it holds no weight as an argument.

Even if the speed of the attacks are inferior to the speed of a bullet, a bullet is also only a milimeter in size.

While this a quality retort, aim-dodging long range firearms only puts Chizome at a disadvantage, considering his most promising path to victory is closing the distance between him and Frank in order to use Bloodcurdle.

Using blood curdle seems like a waste of time honestly. Would be easier to just cut Franks head off. People close the gap through aim dodging all the time.

This means the second he's close enough he would get shot in the face rather easily, acknowledging that Frank's guard may be up and he's poised to fire.

Admittedly its true the closer Stain is the harder it is for him to dodge but at the same time Frank needs to prepare himself to avoid being slashed by Stains sword. Likewise Stain carries several blades which as I said previously he can use for throwing.

Also, staying at a distance grants Punisher the opportunity to use the other weapons he has access to here, such as the grenades he's equipped with; allowing him to throw Stain off once detonated near him enabling for an easier shot.

Possibly.

Not at all. You're overlooking one crucial piece of information- the fact Stain doesn't have any speed feats to suggest he can dodge bullets from a gun in the first place. So it's perfectly reasonable for me to say he's incapable of doing so, because we've seen him perform at his best and nothing he's shown proves he can.

I already addressed this. Just because Stain hasn't faced a gun user doesn't mean he can't. It means we need to use common sense and logical deduction.

Your statement would hold true if Stain had feats to say he was subsonic up to mach 1 or 2, and then you stated that bullet timing would be possible for him-- but he doesn't, so it's not.

No street leveler is capable of mach speeds. Literally the only one who even has a few feats of moving at mach speeds is spider-man (captain america has one feat of out pacing bullets during Geoff Johns avengers but its an outlier). Dodging a bullet after its fired doesn't mean your capable of moving at speeds greater than sound or sub sonic speeds. You only require the speed to move out of the space of the bullet and in most cases the bullet has to travel much greater distances than the target.

Stuff like moving faster than the eye is actually within the same ball park as people like cap, daredevil, wolverine, etc. And its not like Stain even necessarily needs to be a bullet timer to close the gap. He needs to be faster than Franks aim.

Easy. The fact that he was tagged repeatedly by subsonic characters is proof in itself.

Personally I don't think people like Midoriya are sub sonic speeds. That said neither are peak human/enhanced characters in main stream comics either.

Addressing the main bulk of your statement, it is illogical to say that I need to prove Frank can shoot characters of Stain's speed, when he's equipped with weapons that have bullets that travel at a given speed.

Well as I said Stain doesn't need to be faster than Franks weapon. Matt isn't faster than an M16 but he has been able to close the gap when Frank used a machine gun in the past.

And the fact that it was YOU who stated Stain can bullet time w/o supporting evidence means the burden of proof is on you to back up that statement.

I think he can at least aim dodge competently. I never intended to say he could for sure react to bullets after they are fired.

As for the latter half, pretty sure characters like Daredevil and people of his speed wouldn't have trouble dodging Post-Field training arc Todoroki's attacks, considering he's slower than things they've already reacted to.

I don't think Matt is faster than Stain. Matt I would say is blur level to FTE level. He has deflected bullets however its been established in Stan Lees run that this is due to precise timing and skill rather than speed. Basically Matt hears a gun cocking, and he calculates the distance between himself and the shooter and times his swing accordingly:

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Its more super human skill than it is super human speed. Granted characters like Elektra and Shang-chi have dodged bullets after they are fired and I'd say Matt can keep up with them. However I don't think you need to dodge bullets after they are fired to keep up with "bullet timers" or competently avoid bullets.

I mean Black Panther has no clear feats of dodging bullets after they are fired. Yet he's never had an issue keeping up with bullet timers in marvel or dodging them, or even defeating them. Hell he one shotted Karnak who sliced a bullet with his fingers and yet...Black panthers best feats are also stuff like moving as a blur and faster than the eye stuff too. Honestly I would say stuff like that is within the same tier as dodging a bullet after its been fired.

This will change once you catch up to the School Trip arc though, Todoroki's gets a crazy AOE feat during the battle with Moonfish.

Hard to imagine his feats get crazier.

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#14 Posted by CartoonLife (800 posts) - - Show Bio

As long as stain is faster than his opponent he wins pretty much every 1v1.

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#15 Edited by HigherPower (12088 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Sorry, forgot about this.

Even if the speed of the attacks are inferior to the speed of a bullet, a bullet is also only a milimeter in size.

There's this thing called aiming. It's not like Punisher will shoot in one direction in hopes the size of the bullet will be wide enough to tag him, which exactly what Shouto's AOE flash freeze attempts do.

Using blood curdle seems like a waste of time honestly. Would be easier to just cut Franks head off. People close the gap through aim dodging all the time.

I already explained to you why closing the gap would be disadvantageous, so no, it wouldn't be easier to cut Frank's head off. Stain would try to throw a knife at him in order to graze his skin for blood (which results in an opportunity for blood curdle). Just putting that out there.

Admittedly its true the closer Stain is the harder it is for him to dodge but at the same time Frank needs to prepare himself to avoid being slashed by Stains sword. Likewise Stain carries several blades which as I said previously he can use for throwing.

The starting distance is 30 feet. I'd argue Frank sniping him before Stain has any chance of closing the gap to slash him.

I already addressed this. Just because Stain hasn't faced a gun user doesn't mean he can't. It means we need to use common sense and logical deduction.

I never said Stain can't "face a gun user". I just said he's not fast enough to bullet time—and yet, to this day, you haven't proved him capable of doing so.

No street leveler is capable of mach speeds.

You'd be surprised.

Literally the only one who even has a few feats of moving at mach speeds is spider-man (captain america has one feat of out pacing bullets during Geoff Johns avengers but its an outlier). Dodging a bullet after its fired doesn't mean your capable of moving at speeds greater than sound or sub sonic speeds. You only require the speed to move out of the space of the bullet and in most cases the bullet has to travel much greater distances than the target. Stuff like moving faster than the eye is actually within the same ball park as people like cap, daredevil, wolverine, etc. And its not like Stain even necessarily needs to be a bullet timer to close the gap. He needs to be faster than Franks aim.

While some of this is true, FTE movement is still completely unquantifiable. You can't equate Stain to other street levelers who have been shown to operate at speeds higher than bullets just because he was moving faster-than-eye to fodder UA students. The nature of the two actions aren't comparable in a numerical sense, reinforced the fact that bullet timing is measurably faster (doesn't depend on as many factors since we can acquire a constant bullet speed).

Personally I don't think people like Midoriya are sub sonic speeds. That said neither are peak human/enhanced characters in main stream comics either.

Seems we just have different views of speed then.

Well as I said Stain doesn't need to be faster than Franks weapon. Matt isn't faster than an M16 but he has been able to close the gap when Frank used a machine gun in the past.

Stain isn't faster than Matt so that comparison is flawed.

I think he can at least aim dodge competently. I never intended to say he could for sure react to bullets after they are fired.

He can only aim dodge for so long before Frank tosses the grenade, throws him off balance and he gets shot.

I don't think Matt is faster than Stain. Matt I would say is blur level to FTE level. He has deflected bullets however its been established in Stan Lees run that this is due to precise timing and skill rather than speed. Basically Matt hears a gun cocking, and he calculates the distance between himself and the shooter and times his swing accordingly:

That's just one example. Matt has a plethora of feats where he outright swats point blank bullets, and casually. That would place him at a superior speed than Stain since bullet timing > FTE. And correct me if I'm wrong, but there are more examples of it being raw reflexes rather than skills and calculations:

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Its more super human skill than it is super human speed. Granted characters like Elektra and Shang-chi have dodged bullets after they are fired and I'd say Matt can keep up with them. However I don't think you need to dodge bullets after they are fired to keep up with "bullet timers" or competently avoid bullets.

You essentially just conceded, because you scaled Matt to characters who are above bullet speed, which is in turn above FTE-- the level of speed which Stain has shown.

I mean Black Panther has no clear feats of dodging bullets after they are fired. Yet he's never had an issue keeping up with bullet timers in marvel or dodging them, or even defeating them. Hell he one shotted Karnak who sliced a bullet with his fingers and yet...Black panthers best feats are also stuff like moving as a blur and faster than the eye stuff too. Honestly I would say stuff like that is within the same tier as dodging a bullet after its been fired.

The problem with FTE is that it's a recurring feat between characters of all speed levels. Characters who are hundreds of times faster than sound will appear FTE to regular humans, and so will characters who are subsonic. Maybe moving FTE to a characters who's given a certain speed lvl (like mach 1 or something) would be a speed feat, but that is not the case here. You're attempting to say Stain is fast enough to dodge/aim dodge bullets when his best speed feats are moving keeping up with FTE characters, then trying to justify that by downplaying the speed of actual bullet timers (Matt) with examples of them moving at FTE speeds. They don't correlate.

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#16 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan: I don't mean to be disrespectful but I am pretty busy with school and don't have much interest in this at the moment. I just don't agree with the idea that you need showings against projectiles specifically to dodge them. I just want to respond to one thing:

That's just one example. Matt has a plethora of feats where he outright swats point blank bullets, and casually. That would place him at a superior speed than Stain since bullet timing > FTE. And correct me if I'm wrong, but there are more examples of it being raw reflexes rather than skills and calculations:

Its not stated in those scans that Matt is performing advanced calculations but it doesn't have to. Stan Lee established this as a part of Matts skill set early on. There have been other issues which have made it clear that Matt's ability to deflect bullets has to do with timing/skill like amazing spider-man 287:

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The scan says "His timing must be perfect! His execution flawless!" And when spider-mans asks how Matt did it, Matt says his radar sense allows him to track the shot closely. Personally I don't think it matters how Matt deflects bullets. I actually think Matt calculating the angle and distance from the shooter is even crazier than just straight up hitting the bullet.

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#17 Edited by HigherPower (12088 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I'm not an expert on Daredevil so I'll drop on the topic concerning him. As for the thread at hand, we can agree to disagree.

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#20 Posted by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

Stain wins.

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#21 Posted by passingthroughv2 (1285 posts) - - Show Bio

@gearsecond659: Idia brother is still alive just not able to be a hero again

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#23 Edited by HigherPower (12088 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Since the movie has been confirmed canon, I've changed my opinion on this. Stain should have no problem beating Punisher scaling him off of Midoriya if we take into account the latter's feat.

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#24 Posted by deactivated-5bd0d99b6c6f7 (1676 posts) - - Show Bio

616 Punisher solos the DCEU. Mismatch.

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#25 Posted by CartoonLife (800 posts) - - Show Bio

Deku bullet timed pretty easy, and Stain is roughly the same speed or maybe a tad bit slower than 5% Deku. In other words, Stain should bullet time without much trouble here.

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#26 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Since the movie has been confirmed canon, I've changed my opinion on this. Stain should have no problem beating Punisher scaling him off of Midoriya if we take into account the latter's feat.

Cool. I'm glad to hear opinions have changed on how fast MHA characters are.

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#27 Posted by FullMetalEmprah (3870 posts) - - Show Bio

Stain takes this, man it feels good to have an MHA speed feat.

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#28 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18171 posts) - - Show Bio

Stain stomps

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#29 Edited by Mee09 (5566 posts) - - Show Bio

@cartoonlife: Thank you. Someone tried to lowball Stain and forgot scaling exists.

Stain kills The Punisher.

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#30 Posted by CartoonLife (800 posts) - - Show Bio

@mee09: Tends to happen a lot doesn't it?

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#31 Edited by Chronicplane (8583 posts) - - Show Bio
@fullmetalemprah said:

Stain takes this, man it feels good to have an MHA speed feat.

You telling me mate, I've been waiting so long for some solid speed feats in MHA. I'm bursting with joy right me :)