SSJ4 xeno Goku vs Jin Mo Ri

@streak619: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Jin_Mo-Ri

https://www.narutoforums.org/xfa-blog-entry/beerus-speed.26376/

Again according to these sources..base Jin at max speed without the Na Bong Chim Acupuncture amp is in the millions while Beerus is casually in the billions.

Considering that Goku has never been Blitz by someone as fast as beerus not even fighting him in his Super Saiyan 1 or base form. It's doubtful That base Jim can do it.

Don't get me wrong Jin does have the speed advantage but only when using the Na Bong Chim Acupuncture to amp himself Beyond his normal limitations.

Basically

Base Jin

Attack:solar system level

Speed millions of times light

Durability: Solar system

Base Goku

Attack:Multi-galaxy level

Speed:millions of time light

Durability:Multi-galaxy level

Amped Jin

Attack:multi-solar system

Speed: trillions of time light

Durability:multi-solar system

SSJ1 Goku

Attack:universal or high multi-galaxy

Speed:millions of times light

Durability:universal or high multi-galaxy

@streak619: "Again, travel speed =/= combat speed and Vsbattles is shit."

And again I'm not arguing with that travel speed and combat speed is not the same but the thing. But thing is tho,Dragon Ball Z characters has demonstrated Vastly superior reaction time and combat in comparison to their travel speed. When Goku was first running on snake way he had a travel speed of maybe 200 miles an hour and yet as a child he was fast enough to react to bullets that travel easily 700 to 2000 miles an hour. He was also faster than the Dodge lightning and even to react to Roshi's Kamehameha which has shown to be fast enough to reach the moon within seconds. So if anything beerus combats speed be should be massively fast in his casual travel speed.

So that applies for Goku. I already pointed out it's a hasty generalisation fallacy to assume it's the same for all DBS characters. I certainly don't see how Whis can punch faster than his travel speed.

Okay so do you have any calculations for base Jin combat speed then?

I do. And it easily comes upto billions at the very least.

@streak619: "I do. And it easily comes upto billions at the very least."

Great I showed you the source of my calculations, you show me the source of yours.

Sure lemme gather the scans.

"So that applies for Goku. I already pointed out it's a hasty generalisation fallacy to assume it's the same for all DBS characters. I certainly don't see how Whis can punch faster than his travel speed."

Well it doesn't just apply to Goku it also applies to roshi Krillin Tien shinhan and Piccolo as well.. basically all the Z Fighters. Don't see why it wouldn't applied for beerus also we literally see him fight his brother while flying from planet to planet high speeds in the manga. Then again how can someone's reaction time possibly be slower than they can fly, wouldn't they just crash into s***?

Same reason New 52 Superman can travel millions of times FTL in space without crashing into stuff despite having only low FTL reaction speed. Travel speed =/= reaction speed.

@streak619: No, you haven’t even considered any other arguments if they support dragonball in the situation at hand.

You haven't provided me with any other than the quadrillion times FTL.

You have provided no evidence to disprove the Ssj Gotenks>= Goku statement which isn’t even the main purpose of my argument (more on that when you respond).

I know. I was just stating my disagreeal. I'd like to see your evidence for saying Buu saga ssj(not even 3) Gotenks > Buu saga Ssj3 Goku.

And I just said you were reluctant to accept arguments for the other team which is still true.

Because they're fallacious. Your speed argument is ridiculous.

True True for this statement at least. I haven’t provided any evidence for Jin Mo Ri winning this battle so your being fair here.

You mean Goku right?

The hypocrisy of accepting any and every feat and argument for Jin Mo Ri

Maybe because they're valid? Unlike your speed arguments?

while ignoring Xenoku’s any and every argument.

I didn't ignore them? You provided one argument and I debunked it.

You have rebutted some of my points with the word ‘no’ for goodness sakes

Except that wasn't a rebuttal?

while we have to provide multiple feats for Goku, most of which you ignore (i.e. multiple timeline level feats for Xenoku). Kind of hypocritical if you ask me.

Bro you provided ONE argument.

The fact that only one person is still defending a character, while not necessarily making you erroneous, still is a viable hint that you might be in the wrong as assuming literally everyone is wrong sounds a bit egotistical.

I'm not assuming everyone is wrong, I DISAGREE with everyone. This is a subjective topic where where everyone is entitled with an opinion.

The evidence you’ve ignored is including but not limited to

-the shockwaves

-super dense energy ball

-one shotting Makyoukya Demigra who busted multiple timelines in a weakened form.

-Gravy as well who was superior to Demigra

You never provided these arguments to me.

-The multiple calcs and instances of DB having combat speed faster than their travel speed

Hasty Generalisation fallacy. Evidence for Beerus's combat speed > his travel speed?

-And providing no calcs to show Jin at as fast as you state while calling our feat “BS”

You never asked for it. So now I'm wrong for not knowing what you want telepathically? Makes sense.

@streak619: "Same reason New 52 Superman can travel millions of times FTL in space without crashing into stuff despite having only low FTL reaction speed. Travel speed =/= reaction speed."

Superman can easily increase his reaction speeds to the point where everything appears to be slow motion to him...

But again what is the basis of your skepticism if that's the case for their literally all the Z Fighters why would beerus be an exception? Beerus reactions be should at least be equal to how fast he can move.

You're shifting the burden of proof. And the reason travel speed =/= reaction speed is because you have more time to react to your obstacles because they approach from far away, and you can percieve them from far away. Reacting to an object from lightyears away is massively easier than reacting to it from ten meters away.

If Beerus irrefutable moved quadrillion times FTL and stopped right before a wall ten meters away then he would be quadrillion times FTL in reaction, because he essentially reacted to a wall move quadrillion times FTL from ten meters away.

But reacting to planets especially when Beerus and Whis can percieve them from lightyears away? Hell no.

@streak619: also I'm not shifting the burden of proof when it comes to critiquing evidence you actually do need a foundation for your critique.

@streak619: "They clearly weren't moving quadrillion times FTL."

low billions to high Millions just like the fan cal said.

I meant in the scans of Beerus vs Champa.

"Yes it's a HG fallacy."

It's not in fact Assuming criticism requires no burden of proof Is a Sign of pseudo skepticism.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pseudoskepticism

That's not what I'm doing. You made the claim that Beerus's combat speed > travel speed. So you have to prove it. The only evidence there is for such a claim is a HG fallacy.

End of story.

@streak619: "That's not what I'm doing. You made the claim that Beerus's combat speed > travel speed. So you have to prove it. The only evidence there is for such a claim is a HG fallacy.

End of story."

You mean Aside from the fact that this is the case for the majority of the characters in the franchise and that it makes little sense for beerus reaction time not to be comparable to his movement speed.

That is a HG fallacy. I'm not gonna repeat myself another time. The Z fighters being of a certain fashion is not a valid premise to say that Beerus is of that fashion as well. That is an asinine assertion and I've had just about enough of it. If you wanna ignore the fact that your logic is objectively wrong and is in fact a registered formal fallacy and go according to what you feel is right, then count me out.

Also those Ki blast were able to hone in on him and follow him at speeds near his movement speed so yeah this does kind of prove to his fighting speed is comparable to at least his movement speed.

Like I said, they weren't moving quadrillion times FTL in there fight.

@streak619: "Like I said, they weren't moving quadrillion times FTL in there fight."

The blast clearly we're able to keep up with beerus the speed and beerus have shown be able to fly from planet to planet.

And how is that quadrillion times FTL?

It's not actually, it's a claim based off empirical evidence. Characters in the series of demonstrators to be the case time and time again so in order to assume that beerus is different you have to have a reason.

I'm not assuming Beerus is different, I'm demanding evidence for the assumption that Beerus is the same. The only evidence you have is a hasty generalisation. And it's not all the characters in the verse, it's only the Z fighters. The Z fighters being of a certain fashion does not in any logical form prove that Beerus is of the same fashion.

@streak619: first of, the calculations puts beerus to speed at billions to Millions flt

Can I see the calcs that put Beerus at billion times FTL?

.. also Champa claims that beerus would not be able to outrun his ki blast which suggested they must be comparable to Beerus movement speed putting those Ki blast he slapped away at the million to billions of times faster than light range.

Where in the scans you posted did Beerus oneshot them?

Basically proving that his reaction time is at least comparable to his movement speed.

I have a few compunctions but yes, this is a valid argument.

Also still waiting for base Jin combat speed Feats you haven't posted any considering how critical you're being there must be pretty good..

Okay, so, in base Jin was able to massively blitz this dude called Nattak casually while exhausted and hurt:

Nattak was able to react to the ex0ansion of a stick called Yeoui:

And Yeoui is ten thousand times FTL for moving from the moon to the Earth before a speedy projectile could move a millimeter:

Even if lowball the speed of those peojectiles to 10 meter per second(a disgusting and criminal lowball considering the characters could create sonicbooms and light the air on fire with their fists well before this part and would finish drinking a cup of tea before something that slow hit them), it still comes upto 100,000 x LS.

If I take a reasonable estimate of the speed of sound it comes 3,400,000 times LS. He can become 250k times faster using something called Jeabongchim which is similar to kaioken(except the numbers are actually legit). Putting him at 750 billion times FTL.

This is not including god mode or speed mode which makes him massively faster but it isn't quantifiable(like SSG)

All in all I estimate to be reasonably around lower-mid trillion times FTL.

@streak619: I believe it was in a different nebula or a star system but many claimed that it was different a Galaxy either way but those can be massive and being able to clear that distance in less than 40 seconds would put in low billions to Trillion range.

How did they get that? I don't remember it ever being mentioned.

I'm still willing to admit that Jin probably has the speed advantage while using theJeabongchim amp( not his base speed) but it's just not fast enough to Warrant a blitz.

If goku is in the billions, it's a blitz. If he is in the trillions then it's not a blitz.

Basically he's too fragile to survive a serious punch from even base Goku at this point.

He would dodge.

His acupuncture technique can easily be circumnavigated by a mere Ki Shield like he did against the three de danger.

Highly out of character. And he wouldn't do it for no reason(for all he knows)

And while he still faster at least while amped anyway he's not fast enough to Warrant a blitz as Goku has been able to keep up with dudes who are just as fast as him in his max while in his Super Saiyan 1 and base State.

Which is a blatant inconsistency.

@streak619: First of all, my arguments are all above. I thought you had seen them and just were dodging around them.

Dude, you were the one who tagged me. So why on Earth am I supposed to know your arguments?

You still haven’t debunked any of my arguments and feats above.

Because I just saw them? I don't know anything about Xeno Goku so I can't say anything. That's why asked for Goku's speed in the first place.

Ssj Gotenks pre ROSAT was stated to be more than strong enough to beat Majin Buu. Post ROSAT so was his base form according to piccolo, but I wouldn’t go there. So worst case scenario, his SSJ form would murder fat buu at this point, and he’d be >= Ssj3 Goku.

Fat buu is fodder. Supressed Goku was able to flat out troll him. SSJ3 Goku kept up with Buutenks so I don't see how ssj Gotenks is > Ssj3 Goku.

The speed argument is supported by the scans above by bossmountain as I myself am on my phone.

We're debating it now.

No, you shouldn’t telepathically know what I want, but it’s pretty obvious that if you’re going to make claims, you sure as hell better back then up.

That depends on my opponent, not me.

Otherwise you have no right to call people fallacious.

They have no corelation

P.S. I see you have provided feats above for speed now. Good ones too. I know were butting heads and all, but this is my first real comicvine debate, do you think I’ve done pretty well?

Above average I guess.

@streak619: oh sorry, I actually forgot to tag you for my arguments with death2heretics!

It's cool.

I understand if you don’t know much pertaining to Xeno Goku, but then why say Jin wins without researching the other character?

I actually started with a question. Then, after seeing some arguments I made up my mind

Ssj3 Goku never kept up with buutenks in the manga.

Didn't he stalemate buutenks ehile Gohan was searching for the Potara? Or was that filler? I haven't read the manga.

Heck he said he was no match for Super Buu in the manga.

You mean Buuhan?

Gotenks was about to kill Super Buu until the fusion ran out. When copy Vegeta fought him, that wasn’t a problem and neither was Gotenks’s personality as Gotenks wasn’t fooling around, and the fusion lasted way more time than it took Vegeta to OHKO.

Okay. So how foes that prove ssj Gotenks > ss3 Goku?

The burden of proof is on you if you make a claim.

You never asked me to prove it. And when BM did, I said I'd gather scans.

Your opponent should not have to disprove your claim until you support it. That in itself is pretty darn fallacious.

I never asked you guys to disprove it.

And while I do think you’re biased, in your stance, you are pretty good as a debater.

Fair enough and thanks.

I’m honored to be considered legitimate (if only somewhat) by someone with 4000+ posts.

Thanks. And you're quite good for someone who just joined. Certainly far better than I was.

I may disagree heavily about this debate, but you seem like a pretty nice person. I’m sorry if my last couple of posts have seemed hostile towards you and I deeply apologize for that.

Nah you're fine. If anything, I'm sorry myself.

You have been nothing but kind so far and I didn’t do the same. I hope that we can be friends.

Haha no, I'd say I was the rude one. See you around man.

Oh, that brings me memories...of Naruto vs Silver Surfer and Gai's kick being heavier than the sun.

@streak619: When you were using real life physics to claim Gai was moving near the speed of light. Then I explained to you how space bending requires mass comparable to the one of a star as its gravity is the one that sightly distorts the space around it.

@streak619: You got any advice on how to improve my debating skills?

@streak619: Oh, sorry, wrong Naruto debater. it was Joviolma and it was in this thread. Also, how were my physics wrong? Explain.

@streak619: You are definitely right on this one. You provided pretty solid evidence for the speed feats, while I relied on BossMountain. Anything else?

@streak619: "If goku is in the billions, it's a blitz. If he is in the trillions then it's not a blitz"

Good thing base Jim isn't in the billions or trillions. And would need to aml himself Even according to your cals.

My calcs were lowballed AF, those projectiles blitzed a hypersonic+ character. Besides your calcs don't reveal how they got the distance. Until you can show me that he travelled millions of lightyears in a second.

"He would dodge"

Dude it's laughable to think that he will go into this enitre fight and not get hit once especially since the difference in speed isn't even that dramatic. Their base speeds are about even. And Even when amp there's nothing that puts his speed above beerus and Goku fought Beerus in his ssj1 and base form no issue without being Blitz.

Execept for the fact that your premise is a questionable calc. And DBS is highly inconsistent in all regards. Besides I let the argent that Xeno Goku = DBS Goku slide but is there any evidence for that?

"Highly out of character. And he wouldn't do it for no reason(for all he knows)"

Not really in Dragon Ball super while Goku it's portrayed overall is being Dumber he's also the shown being far more intelligent in combat than he was in z or GT. Like how he was able to memorize hits entire fighting style within 30 seconds of seeing it. And was able to come up with a strategy to counter it and predict every movement he was going to make even with the time skip. He also came up with the strategy to prevent lavender poisonous claws with a ki shield after only seen him use the technique once

Yes, but he wouldn't put up a shield for no reason. Jin would paralyse him before he finds a reason, because it takes two pokes, and Jin blitzed another 750 billion times FTL dude and paralysed him too.

A dude who was had the same stats as God mode Jin and used the same 250k amp.

All objects warp space. You and I, and even an electron. Mass has nothing to do with it. It's density that matters. The denser an object, the more it warps space. Which is why black holes with the mass only 2x or 3x the sun's mass warps space massively more than the sun does, because they're like sextillions of time denser than the sun. Schwarzschild radius and Chandrashekhar limits describe this concept well so just give it a google.