SSJ4 Goku Amd Vegeta Vs Kale and Caulifla

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joshua755

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Random Encounter both Teams going all out SSJ4 team can fuse if they need it takes place at the tournament of power battlefield

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XD_ist

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Goku solos in base form

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Aksilroch

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Aksilroch

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Base Caulilfa being>ToP SSG Goku. Also debunks "Buu Saga" strength in base/SSJ. Unless you think Z base Vegito>ToP SSG Goku.

OT: base Kale one-shots the verse

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SeventhMoon

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#5  Edited By SeventhMoon

Either on team 1 solo the verse. We've been over this already. Super is fodder to Toeiverse.

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Alekos

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The guys beat the- actually have no idea if i can say that or not

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XD_ist

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@xd_ist: How?

Even ignoring every other stat where GT is massively superior, theres still a speedblitz.

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Edgelord91

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Kale solos lol

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MasterBuster666

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T1, lol.

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hoopla001

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Kale and caulifla win.

Ssj 4 Goku and vegeta are only like 100 times stronger than z vegito or movie gogeta. Both universe level in the toei verse but restricted to one dimension. Per their own descriptions, a Big Bang class explosion only shook hell, and buu’s dimensional screaming was only gonna crush the living world.

Caulifla and kale are like hundreds of thousands times stronger than z era fusions. And scale to a feat that would destroy three universe sized dimensions at once.

Caulifla has a counter to instant transmission, fought a much more skilled Goku.

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SeventhMoon

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#11  Edited By SeventhMoon

@hoopla001: Going to skip the parts I've disproven against you in regards to Gogeta only being universal and address the new things you've mentioned.

Ssj 4 Goku and vegeta are only like 100 times stronger than z vegito or movie gogeta.

Completely baseless. Kid Buu is the strongest Buu in Toeiverse, to which SSJ3 Goku was stronger than in terms of brute strength. We don't know why Goku and Vegeta randommly got a big jump in Toeiverse to be able to fight a Buu that strong, but the fact of the matter is that they did. Though a theory is that due to Vegito's defusion that wasn't supposed to happen, Goku and Vegeta retained some of his power. But despite this being a theory, it's just an explanation for how they got stronger. Even if you ignore this theory, it doesn't change the fact that they indeed did get stronger after his defusion. And yes, I'm aware that Kid Buu > Super Buu is not a thing in the manga version.

This is important, since Buuhan could already fight a casual Base Vegito, with his Vanishing Ball actually making him struggle a bit even while serious. Kid Buu is above this same Buuhan and Uub should be equal to Kid Buu, aside from his biology not giving him regeneration and bodily flexibility, along with his lack of ki usage to where he doesn't know how to fly, shoot ki blasts, etc. But in terms of pure strength, he's equal to Kid Buu once he gets angry, which makes sense, as Kid Buu is naturally that strong by default without any training, meaning his reincarnation would also be that strong by default. Only difference is his lack of innate knowledge on ki usage. And Base EoZ Goku is above this Uub. This makes EoZ Goku's base power relative to Buu Saga Vegito's and M12 Gogeta's at the very least, let alone Goku from GT that trained for 5 more years constantly. Then he got several power increases in the Black Star Saga alone up to the Baby Saga. Then after that, he got a zenkai against Baby after being healed, on top of training after that arc to the point his MSSJ form in the Super 17 Arc was above Majuub, who was far above his SSJ3 self in the Baby Arc. And then Goku got another zenkai from being healed against Syn Shenron. And none of this is counting SSJ4 itself. His base form alone should be massively above Gogeta and Vegito from the Buu Saga/M12 period, including their SSJ3 forms.

Caulifla has a counter to instant transmission, fought a much more skilled Goku.

DBS Goku is far less skilled than Pre-Recton Manga Goku and Toeiverse Goku, as both of them learned "Ultra Instinct" from Mr. Popo back in Dragon Ball as a child, yet DBS forgets this and paints it as some end-all-be-all level of skill, even though it's not and many humans IRL use this to varying degrees. DBS Goku is literally on the level of Pre-Recton Manga and Toeiverse DB Kid Goku in terms of skill.

Seriously, what advantage does DBS have? Better feats? Nope. Higher scaling above strong feats? Nope. Higher level of skill? Nope. Better scaling if we cross-scale both canons and use the same power hierarchies for them? Nope, considering we have statements like Future Trunks being able to heal Blue Goku one time, while a much more advanced healer (Fused Shin) was blatantly stated to be unable to heal Super Saiyan 4, on top of UI being below a non-rival boosted SSJ2 fusion made of weaker fusees than Goku and Vegeta as well, on top of Super taking place well before EoZ, let alone GT.

Hell, the Caretakers literally have abstract reality warping feats in GT, and EoGT Goku is also absurd if you look carefully at what he did in episode 63 and M14. These are characters beyond anything in the rest of DB period. A level where no amount of physical might matters anymore.

Seriously, there is no method to actually put Super above GT in any capacity.

Goku and Vegeta revert to base form here and casually one shot these two, even if they fuse.

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Godlike_Warrior

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#12  Edited By Godlike_Warrior

Goku and Vegeta

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hoopla001

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#13  Edited By hoopla001
@seventhmoon said:

@hoopla001:

Going to skip the parts I've disproven against you in regards to Gogeta only being universal and address the new things you've mentioned.

you’ve never disproven anything. Even the scan you posted says they only affected hell. And the movie proves there light show wasn’t seen in the living dimension

Ssj 4 Goku and vegeta are only like 100 times stronger than z vegito or movie gogeta.

Completely baseless. Kid Buu is the strongest Buu in Toeiverse, to which SSJ3 Goku was stronger than in terms of brute strength.

irrelevant as both are nothing in comparison to vegitos power. and Goku was not stronger than kid buu in brute strength he was at best equal. he thought he might be able to wipe him out. but he tells vegeta he’s been trying that the whole fight and failing.

base vegito, was beating up buuhan and treating him like a joke.

and the dbs continuity also uses the kid buu was the strongest majin scaling chain.

And Base EoZ Goku is above this Uub. This makes EoZ Goku's base power relative to Buu Saga Vegito's and M12 Gogeta's at the very least,

that still wouldn’t make him relative vegito, someone Goku thought would beat kid buu with ease. By the EOZ Goku thought a kid buu level opponent still had a chance of beating him and winning the tournament. Goku had to train uub because he wasn’t ready and couldn’t give Goku the fight he wanted. He showed potential though.

let alone Goku from GT that trained for 5 more years constantly. Then he got several power increases in the Black Star Saga alone up to the Baby Saga.

no proof Those periods of training increased his power substantially at all. It’s completely unquantifiable.

the power increase from throughout gt is like a hundred times at most.

Then after that, he got a zenkai against Baby after being healed, on top of training after that arc to the point his MSSJ form in the Super 17 Arc was above Majuub, who was far above his SSJ3 self in the Baby Arc. And then Goku got another zenkai from being healed against Syn Shenron. And none of this is counting SSJ4 itself. His base form alone should be massively above Gogeta and Vegito from the Buu Saga/M12 period, including their SSJ3 forms.

lots of of unquantifiable power increase. except for ssj Goku being above majuub. That means he’s at least 8 times stronger then he was at the beginning of the series.

no proof that they are anywhere near vegito level, until baby says he has the greatest saiyan power in history, and Goku says he’s never sensed anyone as strong. that’s what finally puts them above vegito levels

Caulifla has a counter to instant transmission, fought a much more skilled Goku.

DBS Goku is far less skilled than Pre-Recton Manga Goku and Toeiverse Goku, as both of them learned "Ultra Instinct" from Mr. Popo back in Dragon Ball as a child, yet DBS forgets this and paints it as some end-all-be-all level of skill, even though it's not and many humans IRL use this to varying degrees. DBS Goku is literally on the level of Pre-Recton Manga and Toeiverse DB Kid Goku in terms of skill.

this is faulty logic and you know it. popo didn’t teach him ultra instinct. ultra instinct is a level far beyond what popo taught, and comes with a whole extra level of power by using such a technique. they aren’t even comparable.

Dbs Goku Is able to fight and predict an assassin skipping through time. That’s a level of skill far above gt Goku. He’s never shown that level of skill.

Seriously, what advantage does DBS have? Better feats? Nope. Scaling above strong feats? Nope. Better scaling if we cross-scale both canons and use the same power hierarchies for them?

dbs does have better feats, destroying the macrocosm >>> shaking hell, and destroying the living world.

dont try to make movie 12 Gogetas feat more than it is. The scan you provided says they only shook hell. nobody saw gogetas light shows besides the people who were in hell.
plus being able to stand in a black hole >>>>> struggling to lift a city.

and Better scaling, Dbs Goku scales way farther above vegito than gt Goku. his base or ssj becomes that strong while gt Goku only gets to that level, As a ssj 4

Nope, considering we have statements like Future Trunks being able to heal Blue Goku one time, while a much more advanced healer (Fused Shin) was blatantly stated to be unable to heal Super Saiyan 4, on top of UI being below a non-rival boosted SSJ2 fusion made of weaker fusees than Goku and Vegeta as well, on top of Super taking place well before EoZ, let alone GT.

that means shin sucks As a healer. Trunks is way stronger than shin. And you’re mixing continuity. Anime trunks isn’t a healer. you can’t even compare them.

an incomplete ui was below a ssj 2, fusion that just broke their limits and got much more powerful. Rival boost is unquantifiable, and doesn’t mean much.

and was formed by characters way stronger than gt Goku and vegeta.

Hell, the Caretakers literally have abstract reality warping feats in GT and EoGT Goku is also absurd if you look carefully at what he did in M14. Characters beyond anything in the rest of DB period.

Seriously, there is no method to actually put Super above GT in any capacity.

Goku and Vegeta revert to base form here and casually one shot these two, even if they fuse.

Reaity warping isn’t something gt Goku and vegeta can do. And is easily overcome simply by being much stronger than your opponent.

I’ve given several methods to put super over gt

comparing power feats : super wins

scaling: super wins

skill: super wins

base caulifa would solo both ssj 4 Goku and vegeta looking at actual feats from each series. scaling off of vegito, caulifla might need ssj

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Aksilroch

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@hoopla001: Bruh, watch episode 30 of U6 arc. It shows again he is above SSG in base.

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InfinityMatrix

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SSJ4 duo.

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hoopla001

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#16  Edited By hoopla001

@aksilroch: I said base or ssj. It really doesn’t matter.

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Aksilroch

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@hoopla001: It does. Otherwise you are downplaying his power by 50 folds.

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hoopla001

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@aksilroch: it really doesn’t matter, I gave two options

I personally believe Goku’s base has passed ssg. Since it did stop the ball. When post ritual ssj Goku who’s = to ssg couldn’t.

But either way. Whether you downplay Goku by 50 fold or not. The girls win.

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MasterBuster666

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@seventhmoon: I think I discovered a blog from VBW proving Goku to be at this tier, and that he may scale above them shockwaves, this can be an end all be all by going > here <.

Lastly, i may think that Beerus & Goku's clash will nuke the Macrocosm, which is verbatim stated.

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SeventhMoon

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#20  Edited By SeventhMoon

@hoopla001: you’ve never disproven anything. Even the scan you posted says they only affected hell. And the movie proves there light show wasn’t seen in the living dimension

For anyone reading, I already dealt with these arguments from Hoopla > here. <

irrelevant as both are nothing in comparison to vegitos power.

Again, Buuhan could push Base Vegito a little bit, despite being clearly weaker. Kid Buu could push him more since he is stronger than Buuhan, meaning EoZ Goku in base would be even more of a match for Base Vegito in the Buu Saga.

he thought he might be able to wipe him out. but he tells vegeta he’s been trying that the whole fight and failing.

He can't wipe him out due to regen, but did blow him to pieces. Goku is a bit above him in SSJ3, but it doesn't really matter.

base vegito, was beating up buuhan and treating him like a joke.

1:12 and 7:46 timestamps says otherwise:

Loading Video...

and the dbs continuity also uses the kid buu was the strongest majin scaling chain.

No it doesn't, considering SSJ3 Goku could fight Kid Buu, meaning he'd be able to at least hang in there a bit with Base Vegito if Kid Buu was above Buuhan. But he isn't in DBS, as even God Goku is below a much weaker fusion equivalent in base (Kefla).

someone Goku thought would beat kid buu with ease.

Yes, Vegito would beat Kid Buu with ease because he can go MSSJ and handily stomp, let alone SSJ3. You're trying to twist this into Goku thinking Base Vegito clobbers him to suit your agenda when that clearly isn't the case.

By the EOZ Goku thought a kid buu level opponent still had a chance of beating him and winning the tournament.

Because it is mutually agreed upon to not go Super Saiyan in the tournaments. The Z Fighters have always agreed on this. Uub was only not a threat to Base Goku due to his lack of ki usage, such as flight, ki blasts, etc., on top of his lack of skill. Uub's actual potential massively exceeds Kid Buu, as seen in GT.

no proof Those periods of training increased his power substantially at all. It’s completely unquantifiable.

Grasping at straws here. Toeiverse Goku has always constantly had massive base power ups from training. The fact he got so strong in EoZ means that in another 5 years he should get at least another relative increase. Simple logic.

lots of of unquantifiable power increase.

Not an argument. He went from struggling with a villain in the Black Star Saga to easily defeating one stated to be stronger than the last later on. Then there's the Majuub one. Then he went from getting stomped by Syn to stomping him. These are all clear power increases. If you're saying they aren't quantifiable because we don't have an exact number, then we can apply this shit to virtually all of DB past the Namek Saga.

no proof that they are anywhere near vegito level, until baby says he has the greatest saiyan power in history, and Goku says he’s never sensed anyone as strong. that’s what finally puts them above vegito levels

Horrendous coping. He is the strongest ki Goku ever felt. Having to specify Saiyan would make it less impressive even, as he's limiting Baby to a specific race.

dbs does have better feats, destroying the macrocosm >>> shaking hell, and destroying the living world.

dont try to make movie 12 Gogetas feat more than it is. The scan you provided says they only shook hell. nobody saw gogetas light shows besides the people who were in hell.

Debunked all of this in the link above. And you're now blatantly lying about what the scans I've sent said here. It clearly said he created a big-bang level explosion and it never stated no one saw it.

plus being able to stand in a black hole >>>>> struggling to lift a city.

Now I know you're not even attempting to be reasonable and are instead trying to mindlessly wank your poorly-written pet series. The Goku that struggled to lift a city was so tired and injured that he soon even lost the ability to use IT and remain in SSJ4, despite its great ki control, on top of trying to lift the building without accidentally destroying it.

Seriously, you wanna go that route? Base DBS Goku actively defending against a bullet was harmed by it still. Krillin actively trying to deal with a bullet nearly died from one. That same Krillin could beam struggle with Blue Goku to the point Goku had to put out so much power that he started screaming at the top of his lungs. With DBS Goku somehow having his Namek Saga base power, meaning he doesn't get base increases anymore. And then they survived a fake black hole without the actual properties of one. Seriously, you wanna go this stupid route? You'll lose.

Dbs Goku scales way farther above vegito

He arguably has no scaling at all above Vegito in any capacity due to his performance against Kefla.

that means shin sucks As a healer. Trunks is way stronger than shin. And you’re mixing continuity. Anime trunks isn’t a healer. you can’t even compare them.

I said if we pretend the canons are the same, which some people try to desperately do. I tried to show that there is literally no way you can argue DBS > GT. And Shin is a more knowledgeable masterful healer. Healing isn't dependent on power, as proven with Dende.

an incomplete ui was below a ssj 2, fusion that just broke their limits and got much more powerful.

Fanfiction. They simply went SSJ2 at the end.

Rival boost is unquantifiable

The boost is unquantifiable, but we know it is a boost nonetheless, meaning Vegito has an innate power boost over Kefla, on top of the people that he's made up of individually being above Caulifla and Kale.

Reaity warping isn’t something gt Goku and vegeta can do.

EoGT Goku, not Vegeta. It's something he already subtly displayed in M14 (A Hero's Legacy) by altering the events of reality where impossible things occurred, like Pan magically getting healed, knowing exactly where Goku Jr. was and somehow getting there instantly, on top of Puck being alive, him and Pan knowing each other, etc. All of these are literally impossible events that never happened or could've happened, let alone in the span of 10 seconds. This was after Goku appeared when Goku Jr. prayed to "god" for a wish. Then we have the writers saying even before absorbing the Dragon Balls that a change came over Goku at the end of his fight with Omega where an aura surrounded him that made him immune to any attacks, despite his actual power level being so drained that he was below Krillin, as shown in the final episode, meaning brute force from Omega was a non-factor.

I’ve given several methods to put super over gt

You haven't. You went from bad arguments, to desperate and dishonest arguments, to outright lying. You've proven you're debating in bad faith and I've lost any actual potential respect you could've gained from me after demonstrating this.

@masterbuster666 said:

@seventhmoon: I think I discovered a blog from VBW proving Goku to be at this tier, and that he may scale above them shockwaves, this can be an end all be all by going > here <.

Lastly, i may think that Beerus & Goku's clash will nuke the Macrocosm, which is verbatim stated.

Problem here is that things beyond Goku's safe zone didn't get nuked like the afterlife or most of the living world, aside from a few random planets here and there.

But I've actually been willing to grant this feat to DBS fans for the sake of argument. But once they start using bad faith arguments for Toeiverse, that's when I start mentioning this. Just look at Hoopla openly demonstrating now more than ever in his last post that he's arguing in bad faith and being blatantly dishonest with double standards, lying about scans and context, etc.

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joshua755

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nassergrant19

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@seventhmoon: I may not completely agree but W response🔥🐐

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hoopla001

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#25  Edited By hoopla001
@seventhmoon said:

@hoopla001:

Again, Buuhan could push Base Vegito a little bit, despite being clearly weaker. Kid Buu could push him more since he is stronger than Buuhan, meaning EoZ Goku in base would be even more of a match for Base Vegito in the Buu Saga.

No, eoz can do better than them, still wouldn’t put him near vegito power. buuhan couldn’t push vegito at all, he couldn’t hurt him. He couldn’t even make vegito move from his spot with his ki blast, he just kicked it back at him after stopping it And running forward with it.

he thought he might be able to wipe him out. but he tells vegeta he’s been trying that the whole fight and failing.

He can't wipe him out due to regen, but did blow him to pieces. Goku is a bit above him in SSJ3, but it doesn't really matter.

a bullet can tear through him what matters is he can’t even injure buu. Like give him bruises.

Which we know is possible because of his fight with vegito

nothing says Goku was stronger than kid buu. Even vegeta was able to blow buu to pieces With his ki blast. And he’s Explicitly weaker then buu and Goku.

base vegito, was beating up buuhan and treating him like a joke.

1:12 and 7:46 timestamps says otherwise:

you serious? buuhan gets a bunch of hits in, and does no damage, Vegitos kicks are able bruise him up and shown to really injure him. This is not the evidence you think it is

Loading Video...

and the dbs continuity also uses the kid buu was the strongest majin scaling chain.

No it doesn't, considering SSJ3 Goku could fight Kid Buu, meaning he'd be able to at least hang in there a bit with Base Vegito if Kid Buu was above Buuhan. But he isn't in DBS, as even God Goku is below a much weaker fusion equivalent in base (Kefla).

Well, thats faulty logic, caulifla and kale are much stronger than bog Goku and vegeta were so their fusion gets a much bigger increase. fusion is AxB. 2x2 wont get as big an increase as 50 x 50.

No Caption Provided

someone Goku thought would beat kid buu with ease.

Yes, Vegito would beat Kid Buu with ease because he can go MSSJ and handily stomp, let alone SSJ3. You're trying to twist this into Goku thinking Base Vegito clobbers him to suit your agenda when that clearly isn't the case.

but base vegito could likely clobber him, he was clobbering buuhan. He had a huge power gap on him. Kid buu is stronger than buuhan. But we wont know for sure. since they’ve never fought. still no proof, that kid buu is near even base vegito level.

By the EOZ Goku thought a kid buu level opponent still had a chance of beating him and winning the tournament.

Because it is mutually agreed upon to not go Super Saiyan in the tournaments. The Z Fighters have always agreed on this. Uub was only not a threat to Base Goku due to his lack of ki usage, such as flight, ki blasts, etc., on top of his lack of skill. Uub's actual potential massively exceeds Kid Buu, as seen in GT.

that’s not stated in the EOZ tournament. but we can go with that, that still means good buu was a viable enough threat for base contestants that he had a chance at winning.

uubs potential can massively exceed kid buu, but that still doesn’t make him near base vegito level.

uub was not what Goku was hoping for period.he’s strong but didn’t have the ability to win the tournament like he expected. So he quits and takes him to train.
uub never got to use kid buus full power On Goku, he was on an unknown level playing catch up.

https://imgur.com/a/3dOhzXM

Goku’s training was to help him learn to use all of kid buus power,

by start of GT I would say Goku was = to kid buu in base. uubs training is complete, base gt Goku is even fighting people with power even greater than buus. Like rildo, but that’s still treated as a challenge And an achievement for Goku. Very different from his reaction to dabura when he determines he’s stronger than perfect cell level. So rildo is closer to buu then dabura is to cell,

no proof Those periods of training increased his power substantially at all. It’s completely unquantifiable.

Grasping at straws here. Toeiverse Goku has always constantly had massive base power ups from training. The fact he got so strong in EoZ means that in another 5 years he should get at least another relative increase. Simple logic.

except , not all training gives massive gains. Goku had 5 years of training before z, didn’t get much stronger Than he was in the 23rd tournament

he got 3 years of training in the Android saga didn’t get much stronger.

7 years of training in the buu saga. but still wasn’t able to make his ssj as strong as ssj 2 gohan.

lots of of unquantifiable power increase.

Not an argument. He went from struggling with a villain in the Black Star Saga to easily defeating one stated to be stronger than the last later on.

and how strong does that make him? It’s unquantifiable. He could be 10% stronger or 2 times stronger But we don’t know. Unless you compared his base performance to his previous ssj transformations

Then there's the Majuub one. Then he went from getting stomped by Syn to stomping him. These are all clear power increases. If you're saying they aren't quantifiable because we don't have an exact number, then we can apply this shit to virtually all of DB past the Namek Saga.

yeah, they are unquantifiable, until you bring in ssj multipliers, and new calculable feats. Doesn’t mean they aren’t strogner. Just means it isn’t as impressive when there’s no number to explain the difference.

no proof that they are anywhere near vegito level, until baby says he has the greatest saiyan power in history, and Goku says he’s never sensed anyone as strong. that’s what finally puts them above vegito levels

Horrendous coping. He is the strongest ki Goku ever felt. Having to specify Saiyan would make it less impressive even, as he's limiting Baby to a specific race.

what? I agree baby is stronger than vegito. You aren’t even reading. this just the only power statement that gives any comparison to vegito. Where he’s not on top.

dbs does have better feats, destroying the macrocosm >>> shaking hell, and destroying the living world.

dont try to make movie 12 Gogetas feat more than it is. The scan you provided says they only shook hell. nobody saw gogetas light shows besides the people who were in hell.

Debunked all of this in the link above. And you're now blatantly lying about what the scans I've sent have here. It clearly said he created a big-bang level explosion and it never stated no one saw it.

No, you didn’t, I debunked your “debunk“ in the same link.

I acknowledge it was big bang level explosion, but it only shook hell, that’s what the scan you sent says

the movie shows nobody in a different dimension saw it. They had to sense Goku and vegeta. they didn’t see the light show.

plus being able to stand in a black hole >>>>> struggling to lift a city.

Now I know you're not even attempting to be reasonable and are instead trying to mindlessly wank your poorly-written pet series. The Goku that struggled to lift a city was so tired and injured that he soon even lost the ability to use IT and remain in SSJ4, despite its great ki control, on top of trying to lift the building without accidentally destroying it.

that’s literally Goku’s best lifting feat in the toeiverse. he Wasn’t even tired

https://youtu.be/oT0w8h3fMlc?si=0Cqb9WPTt6-Jvuqr

and it’s not wank, we are literally just comparing feats.

Seriously, you wanna go that route? Base DBS Goku actively defending against a bullet was harmed by it still. Krillin actively trying to deal with a bullet nearly died from one.

So your response to me using the best lifting feat gt Goku has, is to try and lowball. using a Goku that is rusty and had lowered his guard. Ok. He just caught a bunch of bullets earlier with no damage to his hand earlier in the same scene, all because he was on guard.

All that still isn’t as bad as getting cut by regular glass as a ssj 4. like gt Goku was.

That same Krillin could beam struggle with Blue Goku to the point Goku had to put out so much power that he started screaming at the top of his lungs.

so like I guess you dont watch the show. Because krillin was rusty during the bullet scene. And he had a whole training arc to push past his limits and become strong enough to compete with goku.

With DBS Goku somehow having his Namek Saga base power, meaning he doesn't get base increases anymore. And then they survived a fake black hole without the actual properties of one. Seriously, you wanna go this stupid route? You'll lose.

so, again you seem to like to mix continuitys. Nowhere in the anime is it stated Goku has his namek saga power level In base. where could you possibly get the idea they cant increase their base forms power

Dbs Goku scales way farther above vegito

He arguably has no scaling at all above Vegito in any capacity due to his performance against Kefla.

no, he definitely has scaling above vegito. Kefla was made by stronger combatants. and fusion is AxB, as shown by that guidebook scan. so They don’t have the same increase as before

that means shin sucks As a healer. Trunks is way stronger than shin. And you’re mixing continuity. Anime trunks isn’t a healer. you can’t even compare them.

I said if we pretend the canons are the same, which some people try to desperately do. I tried to show that there is literally no way you can argue DBS > GT. And Shin is a more knowledgeable masterful healer. Healing isn't dependent on power, as proven with Dende.

if healing isn’t dependent on power, your whole tangent is pointless, and we aren’t discussing manga dbs continuity. That requires whole different arguments, it’s a whole different scale

an incomplete ui was below a ssj 2, fusion that just broke their limits and got much more powerful.

Fanfiction. They simply went SSJ2 at the end.

at least pretend you’ve seen the show. you get everything wrong.

heres how the fight goes, kefla goes ssj, she knocks Goku out of ssb kk

goku got ultra instruct is too fast for her to hit,

so to keep up she goes ssj 2

https://youtu.be/1dOI72cwRAU?si=oA2irn5DNaiMQ4_x

then by the end of the fight, they confirm kefla has been pushed into a corner awakening a new power in her

https://imgur.com/a/bVOdGDI

and that’s what she uses to try and hit Goku, still fails and gets knocked out of fusion and off the stage by his Kamehameha

Rival boost is unquantifiable

The boost is unquantifiable, but we know it is a boost nonetheless, meaning Vegito has an innate power boost over Kefla, on top of the people that he's made up of individually being above Caulifla and Kale.

yeah, current top vegito would be way above kefla. Bog vegito wouldn’t be. because he’s made of individuals much weaker than kale and caulfila

Reaity warping isn’t something gt Goku and vegeta can do.

EoGT Goku, not Vegeta. It's something he already subtly displayed in M14 (A Hero's Legacy) by altering the events of reality where impossible things occurred,

sounds more like a Theory than anything confirmed. but sure ghost shenron empowered Goku might be too hax.

I’ve given several methods to put super over gt

You haven't. You went from bad arguments, to desperate and dishonest arguments, to outright lying. You've proven you're debating in bad faith and I've lost any actual potential respect you could've gained from me after demonstrating this.

no, you think they’re desperate and dishonest because you don’t actually remember what happened.


@seventhmoon: I think I discovered a blog from VBW proving Goku to be at this tier, and that he may scale above them shockwaves, this can be an end all be all by going > here <.

Lastly, i may think that Beerus & Goku's clash will nuke the Macrocosm, which is verbatim stated.

Problem here is that things beyond Goku's safe zone didn't get nuked like the afterlife or most of the living world, aside from a few random planets here and there.

But I've actually been willing to grant this feat to DBS fans for the sake of argument. But once they start using bad faith arguments for Toeiverse, that's when I start mentioning this. Just look at Hoopla openly demonstrating now more than ever in his last post that he's arguing in bad faith and being blatantly dishonest with double standards, lying about scans and context, etc.

bad faith?

You’re the one ignoring the narrator. But using the same argument to try and get gogeta to universal. despite him not damaging anything and simply creating a big light show.

I implore you to actually rewatch the show, before claiming that someone is lying.

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#26  Edited By SeventhMoon

@hoopla001: buuhan couldn’t push vegito at all, he couldn’t hurt him

We see Vegito in minor pain as Buuhan is hitting him, just not much. And he was pushed into the ground from his Vanishing Ball and clearly struggling to push it back for a moment. Kid Buu is above this Buuhan to an unknown extent, but it should mean he'd do slightly better, to which EoZ Goku is above even that in base. Another 5 years of training in GT and Goku would be beyond Vegito entirely.

a bullet can tear through him what matters is he can’t even injure buu. Like give him bruises.

If he's playing around and suppressing himself. Or are you suggesting a bullet > Goku's punches, since they don't rip through Buu?

nothing says Goku was stronger than kid buu. Even vegeta was able to blow buu to pieces With his ki blast. And he’s Explicitly weaker then buu and Goku.

Buu was toying with Vegeta and suppressing himself because he knew he was fodder. Or do you think Vegeta in SSJ2 hits harder than SSJ3 Goku?

you serious? buuhan gets a bunch of hits in, and does no damage

No Caption Provided

Vegitos kicks are able bruise him up and shown to really injure him.

Because Base Vegito is stronger than Buuhan, so naturally his hits would do more damage, as opposed to Buuhan's just causing temporary pain upon impact. Still means Buuhan can minorly cause pain to Vegito briefly with his attacks.

Well, thats faulty logic, caulifla and kale are much stronger than bog Goku and vegeta

Baseless, considering Goku's base doesn't seem to increase in power in DBS, minus his temporary Saiyan Beyond God that vanished immediately, as Beerus stated BoG Goku is Namek Saga level in power (aka below that Frieza). On top of that, there is no reason for U6 Saiyans to be massively above Buu Saga characters when they half the age of those characters, do not have hybrid potential, etc.

fusion is AxB. 2x2 wont get as big an increase as 50 x 50.

Are you implying because Kale and Caulifla fused in SSJ2 that they got a bigger fusion multiplier? Because that's stated nowhere. Kefla even emerged in base. This is complete headcanon backed by nothing.

but base vegito could likely clobber him, he was clobbering buuhan. He had a huge power gap on him.

Significant, not huge, as Buuhan could still make him struggle slightly.

And yes, I'm fine with Base Vegito being above Kid Buu and think it is likely, but Kid Buu would still do better than Buuhan to an unknown extent, who was already on the level to barely hang in there with Vegito, with Base EoZ Goku being above even that.

that’s not stated in the EOZ tournament.

Why would this agreement change? This situation certainly hasn't.

that still means good buu was a viable enough threat for base contestants that he had a chance at winning.

I don't really remember this being stated, but that could be because Good Buu trained for all we know. More of a scaling statement for Good Buu if anything.

uub was not what Goku was hoping for period

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Again, the only problem about Uub is his lack of ki usage, which is what your scan is referring to. There is no reason for Uub to be starting out weaker than Kid Buu until he trains, considering Kid Buu was naturally as strong as he was without any training, meaning his reincarnation should be too.

by start of GT I would say Goku was = to kid buu in base.

I don't care for what you think, I care for what is.

As for Rildo, Goku said his power is even greater than Buu's, not relative.

Furthermore, we see Goku's base form increase massively in Toeiverse even with only around a year's worth of training or so, considering Bojack was well above MSSJ Gohan like Perfect Cell, yet Goku could damage him in base. Now we're talking about 10 years worth of training from the Buu Saga to EoZ to GT and you think he's only a bit above Kid Buu by then?

except , not all training gives massive gains. Goku had 5 years of training before z, didn’t get much stronger Than he was in the 23rd tournament

Was a time of peace where Goku didn't seem to be training as hard, as he was seen mainly chilling. EoZ Goku's training speaks for itself via feats, and GT Goku would be training even harder, as that entire 5 years was spent training with Uub constantly.

he got 3 years of training in the Android saga didn’t get much stronger.

Never really stated or shown. That Goku's only fight was against 19 while he was dying of a heart attack. And Future Trunks said the Androids in that timeline were stronger than the ones from his for some reason before you ask why they didn't stomp 17 and 18.

7 years of training in the buu saga. but still wasn’t able to make his ssj as strong as ssj 2 gohan.

This line is stated by Vegeta saying that Goku is above Gohan, but he doesn't really specify that specifically SSJ2 alone is above him. But even if we factor that in, a lot of that training would've been trying to achieve SSJ2, then 3, then trying to control 3 due to how hard it is. And even then, M9 shows us that Base Goku not too long after the Cell Saga can damage someone around relative to Perfect Cell (not SPC). So you can chalk up those little gains later on to instead trying to unlock transformations and master them, slowing his overall training. But this is again, assuming Vegeta specifically meant SSJ2 Goku only is above that Gohan. And even then, that doesn't mean MSSJ isn't relative to that same Gohan, it just wouldn't be above it.

Needless to say, GT Goku didn't spend his time doing that, but instead sparring with Uub.

and how strong does that make him? It’s unquantifiable. He could be 10% stronger or 2 times stronger But we don’t know. Unless you compared his base performance to his previous ssj transformations

The main thing here is that we have pretty good examples of big growth. An example is Lord Luud making MSSJ Goku and Trunks struggle massively, only for Base Goku later on to be taking on the Sigma Force all at once at the same time fairly easily, who are stated to be the strongest people Goku has fought in a while, with his fight with Luud not being that long ago, meaning the Sigma Force members are above him.

yeah, they are unquantifiable, until you bring in ssj multipliers, and new calculable feats. Doesn’t mean they aren’t strogner.

Going from getting stomped to stomping is a pretty big deal. For instance, someone who scales to Character X is inferior to someone who stomped a character who stomped Character X. There aren't exact numbers, but the gap is clearly significant to huge, depending on the level of stomp.

what? I agree baby is stronger than vegito. You aren’t even reading.

Your sentence structure was terrible there, so it was hard to understand it.

No, you didn’t, I debunked your “debunk“ in the same link.

Not going to go in circles with this "Nuh uh" shit.

I acknowledge it was big bang level explosion, but it only shook hell, that’s what the scan you sent says

It didn't destroy anything because of ki control logically or Janemba's reality warping shenanigans. If you call BS on this, then I call BS on the BoG universal feat, which has an even bigger issue in general.

the movie shows nobody in a different dimension saw it.

At no point did it specifically show the mortal realm during the timeframe that explosion happened. Complete assumption on your part.

that’s literally Goku’s best lifting feat in the toeiverse. he Wasn’t even tired

Imagine using DB's lifting feats when they've always been horribly inconsistent and don't even scale to their actual attack power. Base GT Goku is literally destroying dimensions:

Loading Video...

(The lighting up the galaxy thing was a dub mistranslation in case you bring that up.)

And again, he was running out of energy to the point he lost SSJ4 not long after and couldn't even use something as simple as IT. He was 100% drained of all ki:

Loading Video...

using a Goku that is rusty and had lowered his guard.

Oh I see, so context for DBS, but not GT. Double standards at their finest. I was simple using your own logic against you. Also, even your argument here sucks. He was so rusty he dropped to Kid Goku levels? Ok. lol Also, his guard wasn't really lowered if he actively defended against the bullet. I can handwave this stuff away as outliers easily, but not when you're unironically using GT feats without context to low ball it.

All that still isn’t as bad as getting cut by regular glass as a ssj 4. like gt Goku was.

You mean a battered and blinded Goku that had virtually no ki left? "Context for me, but not for thee."

Still don't have a response to Krillin making Blue Goku struggle, which also has no actual context to explain it away as far as I'm aware. Again, I'd handwave it as an outlier, but not with you making arguments like these.

so like I guess you dont watch the show. Because krillin was rusty during the bullet scene. And he had a whole training arc to push past his limits and become strong enough to compete with goku.

So he dropped to human level, then training got him to god levels? Sounds like it's a level anyone can reach immediately and thus isn't impressive.

so, again you seem to like to mix continuitys. Nowhere in the anime is it stated Goku has his namek saga power level In base.

Mix continuities? Pretty sure the DBS anime is the only continuity that even says this. lmao

No Caption Provided

You can't say Goku was suppressed either, since his response to this wasn't to power up his base form, but to go MSSJ, to which Beerus says is only a little bit above Frieza:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

where could you possibly get the idea they cant increase their base forms power

By the fact a Post-Buu Saga Goku still has Namek level base power.

Kefla was made by stronger combatants.

Both are explicitly weaker than Goku in the same forms.

if healing isn’t dependent on power, your whole tangent is pointless, and we aren’t discussing manga dbs continuity. That requires whole different arguments, it’s a whole different scale

The healing capabilities aren't dependent on the power of the healer, but how much they can heal does depend on the power of the one they are healing.

then by the end of the fight, they confirm kefla has been pushed into a corner awakening a new power in her

Aka her special ki blast ability that could've one-shotted UI. The fact UI Goku couldn't even one-shot SSJ2 Kefla is pathetic. Kefla overall proves that the god multipliers are not super insane. Base Kefla could stomp God Goku. SSJ1 Kefla one-shot Kaioken Blue Goku, and SSJ2 Kefla with her ultimate attack could one-shot UI if she hit him. This is a fusion whose multiplier would be weaker than the one Vegito gets due to having stronger fusees and a rival boost.

yeah, current top vegito would be way above kefla. Bog vegito wouldn’t be

Baseless. And again, the Kefla example is also used to point out that god multipliers are not inconceivably above SSJ3, even if they are much more powerful.

sounds more like a Theory than anything confirmed.

It not being spelled out for you doesn't mean it's a theory. And one of the examples is blatantly stated by the writers.

You’re the one ignoring the narrator. But using the same argument to try and get gogeta to universal. despite him not damaging anything and simply creating a big light show.

Gogeta and Goku's feat are different. Gogeta is stated to create a big-bang level explosion, with said explosion shown to engulf the cosmos that is all connected by Janemba at the time. This lack of destruction can be chalked up to ki control.

The problem with Goku's feat with Beerus is that the shockwave AFTER it leaves the safe zone of Goku's ki control does not start nuking everything outside the solar system, the afterlife, etc., even though three of those shockwaves were supposed to end everything and two went off. This is much different because ki control isn't an argument here, as that is explicitly not supposed to be possible beyond a certain range from Goku's safe zone, yet those shockwaves still aren't destroying anything but a few planets off and on.

Again, I am willing to handwave this and say it is a proper feat, but not when you try to downplay Gogeta's feat. And if we count both feats, Gogeta's is more impressive, as it was caused by him simply coming into existence, let alone several attacks from two combatants like Goku and Beerus.

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Gt is not weak, give them the respect they deserve

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Base GT kid Goku solos

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Team 1 body

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#31  Edited By hoopla001

@seventhmoon:

@seventhmoon said:

  • “We see Vegito in minor pain as Buuhan is hitting him, just not much. And he was pushed into the ground from his Vanishing Ball and clearly struggling to push it back for a moment”

For a moment being the key phrase here, meaning he wasn’t showing his real power.

He stopped the blast and proceeded to run with it and kick it back. There is no Parity between buuhan and base vegito

  • Kid Buu is above this Buuhan to an unknown extent, but it should mean he'd do slightly better, to which EoZ Goku is above even that in base. Another 5 years of training in GT and Goku would be beyond Vegito entirely.

Sure he can do better than buuhan, but none of that would make gt Goku above vegito. When there’s no link to vegito On the scaling chain.

  • If he's playing around and suppressing himself. Or are you suggesting a bullet > Goku's punches, since they don't rip through Buu?

No, just showing buus durability isn’t his strong suit. Lots of projectiles can tear through him punches don’t. But that damage is measure by how bruised buu looks, since he just stretches with punches

  • Buu was toying with Vegeta and suppressing himself because he knew he was fodder. Or do you think Vegeta in SSJ2 hits harder than SSJ3 Goku?

Both vegeta and Goku can blow him up, it’s just an example showing How it’s not hard. And not an example of Goku being stronger than buu. Who’s to say he wasn’t suppressing himself against Goku and vegeta.

  • you serious? buuhan gets a bunch of hits in, and does no damage
No Caption Provided

Yeah, not a scratch on him.

  • Because Base Vegito is stronger than Buuhan, so naturally his hits would do more damage, as opposed to Buuhan's just causing temporary pain upon impact. Still means Buuhan can minorly cause pain to Vegito briefly with his attacks.

Buuhan is able to make a supressed base vegito feel a hit. Big whoop. Doesn’t make him close enough for eoz Goku to scale to vegito without any direct comparison

  • Baseless, considering Goku's base doesn't seem to increase in power in DBS, minus his temporary Saiyan Beyond God that vanished immediately, as Beerus stated BoG Goku is Namek Saga level in power (aka below that Frieza).

Newsflash, base Goku and freiza had a massive gap in power, Goku can get stronger in base without surpassing frieza. And saiyan beyond god never vanished, it stays with him for the rest of the series. There is no statement of him losing his previous enhancement.

  • On top of that, there is no reason for U6 Saiyans to be massively above Buu Saga characters when they half the age of those characters, do not have hybrid potential, etc.

Extremely baseless, they are new characters you can’t just arbitrarily decide how strong they can be. They are as strong as current Goku and vegeta, that means they are above ssg god Goku from battle of gods. And they were noted to be the strongest in their universe and had lots of potential.

  • fusion is AxB. 2x2 wont get as big an increase as 50 x 50.
  • Are you implying because Kale and Caulifla fused in SSJ2 that they got a bigger fusion multiplier? Because that's stated nowhere. Kefla even emerged in base. This is complete headcanon backed by nothing.

No, I’m saying base caulifla and kale are stronger than bog Goku and vegeta, therefore there fusion gets a much bigger increase. That’s not headcanon that’s just a fact because of how fusion works

  • Significant, not huge, as Buuhan could still make him struggle slightly.
  • And yes, I'm fine with Base Vegito being above Kid Buu and think it is likely, but Kid Buu would still do better than Buuhan to an unknown extent, who was already on the level to barely hang in there with Vegito, with Base EoZ Goku being above even that.

It’s definitely huge, even suppressed he was bullying buu. And went completely uninjured. And hanging in there would imply vegito was trying hard to kill him. There’s no way to scale EOZ Goku or start of gt Goku to vegito

  • that’s not stated in the EOZ tournament.
  • Why would this agreement change? This situation certainly hasn't.

Gohan isn’t in high school anymore, and isn’t participating so has no reason to ask for that rule

uub was not what Goku was hoping for period

  • Again, the only problem about Uub is his lack of ki usage, which is what your scan is referring to. There is no reason for Uub to be starting out weaker than Kid Buu until he trains, considering Kid Buu was naturally as strong as he was without any training, meaning his reincarnation should be too.

Uub is indeed the reincarnation of buu, but he’s not strong enough to have a chance at winning the tournament or giving Goku a good all out fight like he was hoping and expected.

Uub has potential like gohan , but his power is dictated by emotion, so he doesn’t have access to all his power. Goku has to train him to give him the skill and strength needed for there true bout which they finally have in GT

  • I don't care for what you think, I care for what is.

And it is about kid buu level

  • As for Rildo, Goku said his power is even greater than Buu's, not relative.

True,but buu being relevant as a comparison in the sense that gets Goku excited to fight implies the gap isn’t that large.

  • Furthermore, we see Goku's base form increase massively in Toeiverse even with only around a year's worth of training or so, considering Bojack was well above MSSJ Gohan like Perfect Cell, yet Goku could damage him in base.

That’s not proof of Goku’s base increasing massively he hit bojack when he wasn’t looking, only using enough power to not kill base gohan. Even base vegeta was able to make super perfect cell feel his ki blast, made him flinch from the impact. And super perfect cell is much stronger than bojack.

https://youtu.be/K9fXmecbAug?si=SraDLeg5PhlZ4ikZ

  • Now we're talking about 10 years worth of training from the Buu Saga to EoZ to GT and you think he's only a bit above Kid Buu by then?

Sure. Nothing shows him as far above besides your headcanon.

  • Was a time of peace where Goku didn't seem to be training as hard, as he was seen mainly chilling. EoZ Goku's training speaks for itself via feats, and GT Goku would be training even harder, as that entire 5 years was spent training with Uub constantly.

Training gains vary wildly, it’s not always about time.

  • Never really stated or shown. That Goku's only fight was against 19 while he was dying of a heart attack. And Future Trunks said the Androids in that timeline were stronger than the ones from his for some reason before you ask why they didn't stomp 17 and 18.

Still nobody commented on Goku’s huge strength gains even after he recovered, and trunks was still seen as comparable to Goku and vegeta. And trunks wasn’t shown or commented as having massive strength gains.

  • This line is stated by Vegeta saying that Goku is above Gohan, but he doesn't really specify that specifically SSJ2 alone is above him. But even if we factor that in, a lot of that training would've been trying to achieve SSJ2, then 3, then trying to control 3 due to how hard it is.

Context shows this is new information for vegeta. Despite feeling his ssj power before during the yakon fight. And during their showdown on the tournament stage. It’s only ssj 2 Goku that tells vegeta Goku is stronger than cell games gohan.

  • And even then, M9 shows us that Base Goku not too long after the Cell Saga can damage someone around relative to Perfect Cell (not SPC).

Eh, base vegeta was able to affect super perfect cell, that doesn’t really show base Goku made any massive gains in a year. And both feats were performed on an opponent who wasn’t paying attention.

  • Needless to say, GT Goku didn't spend his time doing that, but instead sparring with Uub.

YeAh, impossible to tell how much stronger that would make him though

So not good for a comparison between Super and Gt

  • The main thing here is that we have pretty good examples of big growth. An example is Lord Luud making MSSJ Goku and Trunks struggle massively, only for Base Goku later on to be taking on the Sigma Force all at once at the same time fairly easily, who are stated to be the strongest people Goku has fought in a while, with his fight with Luud not being that long ago, meaning the Sigma Force members are above him.

Yeah, this is. Pretty good example, about a 50 times increase. But maybe not because only rildo is noted as being greater than boo as a way to hype up his power, implying his most recent opponents were not greater than boo

  • Going from getting stomped to stomping is a pretty big deal. For instance, someone who scales to Character X is inferior to someone who stomped a character who stomped Character X. There aren't exact numbers, but the gap is clearly significant to huge, depending on the level of stomp.

Yeah, but without numbers it’s not that relevant to this discussion because you can’t compare it to super without concrete numbers

  • Your sentence structure was terrible there, so it was hard to understand it.

If you say so

  • It didn't destroy anything because of ki control logically or Janemba's reality warping shenanigans. If you call BS on this, then I call BS on the BoG universal feat, which has an even bigger issue in general.

You’ve got to read what I’m saying. You’re fighting an argument I’m not making. Your scan says a Big Bang level energy shook hell.

You’re problem is assuming the energy of the Big Bang, could destroy dragonball macrocosm. No, it only has the power to create the living world. Which is based on our real life universe. And is only one single part of dragonballs macrocosm. I’m not saying it’s weak because it didn’t destroy anything’s, it’s weaker because it only affected the one dimension.

Paikuhan's great efforts allowed Goku and Vegeta to successfully achieve the strongest fusion of all!

As all hell trembles with the awakening of two ki together which caused a Big-Bang level explosion, the strongest and unmatched Ultimate Fusion Warrior stands in a golden aura! His name is Gogeta!

Explicitly only effect’s hell, hell is the size of a universe hence it being an Big Bang level explosion.

  • At no point did it specifically show the mortal realm during the timeframe that explosion happened. Complete assumption on your part.

That’s also the reason you can’t say it affected anything besides hell, it wasn’t shown in any other place. And goten and trunks didn’t ask about a big explosion of light, they just noted they could Sense gogeta ki. Implying they didn’t see it.

  • Imagine using DB's lifting feats when they've always been horribly inconsistent and don't even scale to their actual attack power. Base GT Goku is literally destroying dimensions:

It’s a good thing I was comparing a different stat than attack power. And That dimension was already coming apart. He really just busted out he didn’t destroy the whole dimension.

https://imgur.com/a/HFZJjkN

  • And again, he was running out of energy to the point he lost SSJ4 not long after and couldn't even use something as simple as IT. He was 100% drained of all ki:

Loading Video...

That is the baby saga , the lifting part of a city comes from the shadow dragons saga. This is why I’m telling you rewatch the series. You’re confusing yourself and you’re gonna confuse anybody else who also didn’t watch the show

“using a Goku that is rusty and had lowered his guard.”

  • Oh I see, so context for DBS, but not GT. Double standards at their finest. I was simple using your own logic against you.

No you weren’t my points didn’t have context that changes the feat. And aren’t lowballs. You’re arguments involve getting rid of context to low ball.

  • Also, even your argument here sucks. He was so rusty he dropped to Kid Goku levels? Ok. lol Also, his guard wasn't really lowered if he actively defended against the bullet.

But it was down, he wasn’t even looking at him. And we know his ki was lowered because he was uninjured after catching much higher caliber bullets. In the same scene

https://youtu.be/rzHb_ZuS8gI?si=z3bYcVNXOt_k1BSL

  • I can handwave this stuff away as outliers easily, but not when you're unironically using GT feats without context to low ball it.

I have not lowballed gt feats, there’s no context that changes the feats I have mentioned. Those were literally there best feats.

  • “All that still isn’t as bad as getting cut by regular glass as a ssj 4. like gt Goku was.”
  • You mean a battered and blinded Goku that had virtually no ki left? "Context for me, but not for thee."

Now this is an example of me using your logic against you, you attempted to lowball. So I mentioned a much worse feat, both the bullet scratch and glass cut can be explained by Goku not being at full power. they aren’t relevant

  • Still don't have a response to Krillin making Blue Goku struggle, which also has no actual context to explain it away as far as I'm aware. Again, I'd handwave it as an outlier, but not with you making arguments like these.

That just makes krillin look good, I’m not sure why you think krillin is an anti feat after he’s explicitly gotten stronger then ever before.

  • So he dropped to human level, then training got him to god levels? Sounds like it's a level anyone can reach immediately and thus isn't impressive.

This logic is dumb, and can be applied to any level characters have ever trained for, or even just been Born with. Do better.

  • Mix continuities? Pretty sure the DBS anime is the only continuity that even says this. lmao
No Caption Provided

  • You can't say Goku was suppressed either, since his response to this wasn't to power up his base form, but to go MSSJ, to which Beerus says is only a little bit above Frieza:

Where did you get this translation? this has been debunked by herms on kanzenshuu As a bad translation

Herms post and a better translation

https://imgur.com/a/6eCNCR6

  • where could you possibly get the idea they cant increase their base forms power
  • By the fact a Post-Buu Saga Goku still has Namek level base power.

That doemnt his base hasn’t increased in power man. Do better. There’s a huge gap between base Goku and frieza. not gaining enough power to pass him in base doesn’t mean he didn’t grow at all. Plus super has them increasing there Base power for most the series post BoG

  • Kefla was made by stronger combatants.
  • Both are explicitly weaker than Goku in the same forms.

So? current Goku is stronger than battle of gods Goku.

Caulifla is Stronger than battle of gods and buu saga Goku. You gotta read my responses man.

bog Goku <<<<< Caulifla << current Goku

  • The healing capabilities aren't dependent on the power of the healer, but how much they can heal does depend on the power of the one they are healing.

Alright, still irrelevant. As we aren’t talking about manga Dbs continuity.

  • then by the end of the fight, they confirm kefla has been pushed into a corner awakening a new power in her
  • Aka her special ki blast ability that could've one-shotted UI. The fact UI Goku couldn't even one-shot SSJ2 Kefla is pathetic. Kefla overall proves that the god multipliers are not super insane.

No it doesn’t , because kefla is born from multiplying the power of two really people together. Her multiplier is just more insane than ssg

And fusion increases aren’t stagnant , the stronger you are the greater the increase.

bog Goku fusion <<< SsG <<<< post bog Goku fusion.

  • Base Kefla could stomp God Goku. SSJ1 Kefla one-shot Kaioken Blue Goku, and SSJ2 Kefla with her ultimate attack could one-shot UI if she hit him. This is a fusion whose multiplier would be weaker than the one Vegito gets due to having stronger fusees and a rival boost.

Yeah, current vegito would be stronger than kefla . But base kefla would dog walk ssj 3 bog vegito. Even base caulifla could best that version of vegito

  • Baseless. And again, the Kefla example is also used to point out that god multipliers are not inconceivably above SSJ3, even if they are much more powerful.

You keep using this word, I don’t think you know what it means. The god multiplier is inconceivably above ssj 3. It was more than the initial difference of bog vegito and bog Goku.

But Goku and vegeta got much stronger than Goku’s intial god transformation. So the current vegito is way stronger than current goku. The new fusion increase is greater than the old one.

What aren’t you getting?

  • sounds more like a Theory than anything confirmed.
  • It not being spelled out for you doesn't mean it's a theory. And one of the examples is blatantly stated by the writers.

But not the reality warping example, that’s just fan interpretation.

as for the writers statement. he just described what happened, the aura kept omega shenrons attacks from hurting him.

  • Gogeta and Goku's feat are different. Gogeta is stated to create a big-bang level explosion, with said explosion shown to engulf the cosmos that is all connected by Janemba at the time. This lack of destruction can be chalked up to ki control.

Yeah, Big Bang level ( a real life event) , <<< total annihilation of the macrocosm. Which is what Goku and beerus were doing, Them not destroying everything is also because of ki control

  • The problem with Goku's feat with Beerus is that the shockwave AFTER it leaves the safe zone of Goku's ki control does not start nuking everything outside the solar system, the afterlife, etc., even though three of those shockwaves were supposed to end everything and two went off.

I feel like you haven’t ever been paying attention to what’s been discussed, you keep focusing on the shockwaves . That’s not what I’m talking about. That’s not even truly a universal feat because they weren’t capable of one shotting the universe.

And Goku was trying to cancel out the shockwaves the whole time. So that’s the reason why there wasn’t more destruction during the shockwave part of the fight

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided


We are talking about the narration that confirms Goku and beerus are hitting each other with the power to destroy the universe

No Caption Provided

I have posted this scan a bunch of times. But you just keep talking about the shockwaves. Which aren’t part of the fight, once Goku goes all out.

  • Again, I am willing to handwave this and say it is a proper feat, but not when you try to downplay Gogeta's feat. And if we count both feats, Gogeta's is more impressive, as it was caused by him simply coming into existence, let alone several attacks from two combatants like Goku and Beerus.

Again, it wasn’t multiple attacks, its only one

And beerus was able to nullify the universe 7 annihilating energy with his presence alone. And that is the strength he used on Goku for the rest of the fight.

Gogeta s feat only affected hell but was stated to be the equivalent of a Big Bang. Which tracks because hell is size of the universe

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#32  Edited By takenstew22  Moderator
@masterbuster666 said:
@ancient_0f_days said:

Gt is not weak, give them the respect they deserve

If by "give the respect they deserve", you mean people already saying crack like they oneshot Super?

The best feats in GT barely rival SSG territory. The scaling is the only part you could wank thanks to movie feats.

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#33  Edited By SeventhMoon
@takenstew22 said:
@masterbuster666 said:
@ancient_0f_days said:

Gt is not weak, give them the respect they deserve

If by "give the respect they deserve", you mean people already saying crack like they oneshot Super?

The best feats in GT barely rival SSG territory. The scaling is the only part you could wank thanks to movie feats.

I notice you have a bad habit of not debating at all and just stating a winner or going against another side with no arguments. If you're so confident, defend your position, specifically against me.

My starting arguments for Toeiverse are > here. < This explicitly puts Z Toeiverse massively beyond BoG Goku. Now, please explain to me how anyone in Super is doing shit to even Base GT Goku by the Shadow Dragon Saga, let alone SSJ4. Please, enlighten me.

@hoopla001 For a moment being the key phrase here, meaning he wasn’t showing his real power.

Except we see him actively preparing for the blast he can clearly sense the power of. He pushed it back because he stopped its initial advance on him after some struggle. After stopping the force of it going forward, pushing it back would've been simple in comparison.

Sure he can do better than buuhan, but none of that would make gt Goku above vegito. When there’s no link to vegito On the scaling chain.

Denial of this without any arguments is irrelevant.

No, just showing buus durability isn’t his strong suit. Lots of projectiles can tear through him punches don’t.

Buu only gets damaged by weaker things if messing around. Ki blast from comparable opponents naturally do more damage to him though, as ki blasts are stronger than punches.

Both vegeta and Goku can blow him up, it’s just an example showing How it’s not hard.

No, Vegeta can blow up a suppressed Buu trolling him. Even his punches hurt him. If you're arguing that Buu wasn't suppressed, then you're arguing that SSJ2 Vegeta hits on a relative level to SSJ3 Goku, which is just blatantly not true, considering even SSJ2 Goku > Vegeta a little bit.

Yeah, not a scratch on him.

Because it wasn't a significant injury, but it did cause him pain.

Newsflash, base Goku and freiza had a massive gap in power,

Goku can get stronger in base without surpassing frieza

Goku not being able to close that gap by the Buu Saga is still terrible. And you conveniently ignore how I sent Beerus saying that even MSSJ Goku would struggle to beat Frieza, meaning his power level is exactly the same.

And saiyan beyond god never vanished, it stays with him for the rest of the series.

SSJ2 Trunks before training with Vegeta rivals SSJ2 Goku. U6 fodder Saiyans can match them. Goku being able to go God again proves the form wasn't absorbed into his base either. And the worst part is that this still wouldn't close the gap on him and GT Goku.

Extremely baseless, they are new characters you can’t just arbitrarily decide how strong they can be. They are as strong as current Goku and vegeta, that means they are above ssg god Goku from battle of gods. And they were noted to be the strongest in their universe and had lots of potential.

U6 Saiyans are not magically god level without evidence. Them fighting U7 ones are just one of many anti-feats to the Saiyan Beyond God BS.

No, I’m saying base caulifla and kale are stronger than bog Goku and vegeta,

Baseless. And my point on the god form multipliers sucking compared to inferior fusion multipliers than Vegito's still stands even if that was the case.

It’s definitely huge, even suppressed he was bullying buu. And went completely uninjured.

Again, he took minor damage, enough to cause actual pain, but not enough to cause any visible wounds or keep him in pain. He is much stronger, but he can't just tank everything Buu has with ease and definitely not his Vanishing Ball.

Gohan isn’t in high school anymore, and isn’t participating so has no reason to ask for that rule

It wasn't even just for Gohan. Goten and Trunks weren't supposed to either. And the rest of them didn't want to be recognized as the people from the Cell Games.

uub was not what Goku was hoping for period

Replying to scans by saying "No" essentially isn't an argument.

Uub is indeed the reincarnation of buu, but he’s not strong enough to have a chance at winning the tournament or giving Goku a good all out fight like he was hoping and expected.

Again, refer to the scans I sent. Goku was probably just being modest in regards to saying they may not win. Though it's possible he was factoring in the possibility of this Kid Buu reincarnation having trained, which would've made him far stronger, considering the person's starting power should be Kid Buu level due to being his reincarnation, which held to be true. And since you think they weren't restricting themselves to base, by your logic, Kid Buu still may be above a SSJ3 Goku that trained for 5 years, which makes no sense at all.

so he doesn’t have access to all his power.

But Goku successfully got him pissed off, so he did bring it all out. He didn't bring out all of his potential though, as his potential is far higher than Kid Buu's default power level.

True,but buu being relevant as a comparison in the sense that gets Goku excited to fight implies the gap isn’t that large.

That's disproven even by your own logic, since you think Base GT Goku is SSJ3/Kid Buu level, and he got significantly stronger to the point his base is now equal to or above his prior MSSJ state earlier on in GT. So the Buu comparison argument wouldn't even work under your interpretation. It was an odd comparison, but not one that throws out all other scaling, including your own, due to jumping to hasty conclusions.

That’s not proof of Goku’s base increasing massively he hit bojack when he wasn’t looking, only using enough power to not kill base gohan.

He would've been gripping him less tightly, as opposed to suppressing his actual ki. By that logic, he'd have gone back to base form for a tired out Base Gohan.

Even base vegeta was able to make super perfect cell feel his ki blast

Yes, but Cell was blatantly suppressing his actual power to toy with Gohan and put the little he was using into the ki blast itself. That's a bit different from Bojack.

Even so, we have other comparisons, like how Base Goku was able to really push 4th Form Cooler and seemingly had the upper hand, despite massively struggling and being blatantly inferior to 4th Form Frieza, with him still only being relative to his 50% power by using Kaioken x20. And if you argue that Cooler wasn't using 50% like Frieza, he went to his 5th Form to beat Goku, meaning he must've been significantly powered in his 4th, otherwise he would've drawn out more power in that form to beat him. The reason he'd skip going 100% is because anything beyond 50% in the 4th Form takes time to draw out, on top of being very straining and depleting ki rapidly, meaning the 5th Form is the best choice to go beyond 50% of his 4th Form.

Still nobody commented on Goku’s huge strength gains even after he recovered, and trunks was still seen as comparable to Goku and vegeta. And trunks wasn’t shown or commented as having massive strength gains.

Not commenting on them on-screen =/= they didn't happen.

Context shows this is new information for vegeta. Despite feeling his ssj power before during the yakon fight. And during their showdown on the tournament stage. It’s only ssj 2 Goku that tells vegeta Goku is stronger than cell games gohan.

True and this is a plausible interpretation that is most likely to be the case, but Vegeta could've also just have happened to mention it by then. But again, it's not really important. I have mentioned that that doesn't mean MSSJ isn't relative to that Gohan still, and Goku's 7 years of training would've logically have been unlocking and mastering his forms, slowing his natural progress a bit, unlike EoZ and GT.

YeAh, impossible to tell how much stronger that would make him though

He got 400x stronger or more from training for 5 years in EoZ off and on during times of peace and chilling. Training 5 more years constantly with someone who can keep up with him would logically yield a relative, if not bigger gain. And if you keep using this unquantifiable nonsense, the same can be applied to Super's scaling massively more so.

But maybe not because only rildo is noted as being greater than boo as a way to hype up his power, implying his most recent opponents were not greater than boo

Imagine of you applied your line of thinking to Super, which is far worse, yet you conveniently don't.

Goku's Rildo comparison was a bit wonky/lazy, that's all. It's blatantly contradicted by his more serious and detailed statements, on top of feats.

No, it only has the power to create the living world.

Never stated. We don't know how the entire reality/"macrocosm" came to be at all. It shaking hell is because he controlled his ki. And again, it engulfed the cosmos that Janemba had connected, meaning the explosion ranged over everything beyond just Hell. But even if this was only a universal feat, it is massively above BoG Goku because it was preformed by Gogeta merely coming into existence, as opposed to multiple shockwaves from two opponents slowly wearing out Universe 7 over time.

And That dimension was already coming apart.

Same tired arguments from 15 years ago that have been dealt with that long ago as well. The dimension was not collapsing. That defeats the entire purpose of the Caretaker's goal, which was to trap Goku there forever. All they did was destroy the game in the dimension and the laws of it. If the dimension was already being destroyed, why the hell would Goku need to break out of it to escape if the Caretakers were already doing that for him?

He really just busted out he didn’t destroy the whole dimension.

We see the blast engulf everything.

That is the baby saga , the lifting part of a city comes from the shadow dragons saga.

Pretty sure it wasn't, but I may be misremembering. But it doesn't matter, as I already explained that feat even factoring in the possibility of him not being weakened. SSJ4 has good ki control and would be better to properly lift it without destroying the building, on top of his mass being bigger due to a bigger body, so less of his force concentrated into a small spot that could likely destroy the building.

Furthermore, lifting feats all the way back in OG Dragon Ball were horribly inconsistent and never scaled to the actual normal offensive power and durability of characters. The fact you're using this is extreme cope, especially considering that DBS Goku has bad feats of actual durability, scaling, etc.

You’re arguments involve getting rid of context to low ball.

This part is turning into "Nuh uh" too, as you project your bad faith tactics onto me. Your arguments speak for themselves. Moving on.

And we know his ki was lowered because he was uninjured after catching much higher caliber bullets.

"Context for me, but not for thee." Your double standards are absurd. Toeiverse power increases can't be factored in because they are "unquantifiable" according to you, yet you use far more shaky and actually contradictory DBS powerscaling that is far more unquantifiable, on top of just general wank. Then you use two wonky GT feats without context, but then try to defend Super's MUCH wonkier and more damaging feats with context.

Now this is an example of me using your logic against you, you attempted to lowball.

I haven't brought up shit-tier feats like the bullet feats until you brought up the city feat. Don't even go there.

That just makes krillin look good, I’m not sure why you think krillin is an anti feat after he’s explicitly gotten stronger then ever before.

So you actually think Krillin is Blue Goku level? lmao Look at the absurd scaling you use for DBS, but then desperately try to downplay and say "unquantifiable" for far more consistent and less absurd scaling.

This logic is dumb, and can be applied to any level characters have ever trained for, or even just been Born with. Do better.

You're taking it to an all new extreme never before shown.

Herms post and a better translation

Assuming this is true, that translation basically says the same thing. Saying that Frieza is the best he could defeat means he'd struggle to do so and couldn't beat anyone else noticeably higher than him.

So? current Goku is stronger than battle of gods Goku.

You keep failing to read what I'm saying here.

Yes, I am giving an overall comparison and arguing that Buu Saga Vegito > that Kefla, as their base forms haven't gotten noticeably stronger at all. However, I am also pointing out that Kefla's general fusion multiplier, ignoring the gaps in sagas, is also explicitly weaker than Vegito's, meaning the transformation multipliers of the god forms are below a fusion that has a weaker multiplier than Vegito.

I have two arguments here basically. Yes, I am saying that Vegito in Z > Kefla, but I am also saying that even ignoring that, Kefla's fusion multiplier is inferior to what Vegito's fusion multiplier would be in ToP. The point of this is that the god form multipliers are not god-tier insane beyond comprehension, as they are literally below the fusion multiplier of someone below Vegito's own. I mention this since people wank the god forms as having billions or trillions of times multipliers from SSJ3. But for reference, if Buu Saga Goku went SSJG, he'd literally be getting stomped by Base Vegito in that saga and his Kaioken Blue self would get stomped by MSSJ Vegito. We know this since Goku again... was massively below a fusion in base form from two fusees individually weaker than him, on top of no rival boost.

Alright, still irrelevant. As we aren’t talking about manga Dbs continuity.

You're completely missing the point, but whatever.

No it doesn’t , because kefla is born from multiplying the power of two really people together. Her multiplier is just more insane than ssg

Her power is born of two people weaker than SSJ2 Goku in their own SSJ2-equivalent states. But yes, her multiplier is more insane than SSJG, as SSJG isn't trillions of times above SSJ3 like people make out, as it is explicitly below a sub-Vegito level fusion multiplier.

But not the reality warping example, that’s just fan interpretation.

Not really a fan interpretation when the story clearly points to it, unless you think anything the story doesn't spell out in big bold letters is fan theory.

as for the writers statement. he just described what happened, the aura kept omega shenrons attacks from hurting him.

Yes, despite Goku's power being so weakened due to injuries that he's below Krillin. The ONLY conclusion to that is that his strange aura does not care about power differences.

We are talking about the narration that confirms Goku and beerus are hitting each other with the power to destroy the universe

Context. Power to destroy it with enough strikes, given the context from Old Kai and not at all going by the actual feats.

Again, it wasn’t multiple attacks, its only one

The beam struggle threatening the universe was after the initial shockwaves weakened everything outside the safe zone. And if you're treating those later feats as separate from the shockwave feats, then there is no reason to assume it'd extend to beyond the mortal realm like the shockwaves. This doesn't work well either way, on top of the actual feats going against all statements to the point ki control isn't even a proper rationalization. But again, I'll allow you to use this if you stop the downplay of a much less wonky equivalent feat in M12.

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@seventhmoon: Babidi's minions were stated to be stronger than Frieza. Beerus most likely just forgot how strong Frieza really was

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@seventhmoon: He cannot solo the verse the angels exist they are literally immortal and can strip Gogeta of his power or use hax

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@xd_ist said:

@seventhmoon: Babidi's minions were stated to be stronger than Frieza. Beerus most likely just forgot how strong Frieza really was

Even if you don't believe in that, the saiyans agreed to not go SSJ in the tournament even though they had to face Kamiccolo. Even if you don't think Goku was trying to win, Gohan and Vegeta definitely were. I'd say Buu Saga Saiyans are stronger than Android 17, Goku being around Semi-Perfect Cell levels.

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#37  Edited By hoopla001
@seventhmoon said:

@hoopla001 For a moment being the key phrase here, meaning he wasn’t showing his real power.

Except we see him actively preparing for the blast he can clearly sense the power of. He pushed it back because he stopped its initial advance on him after some struggle. After stopping the force of it going forward, pushing it back would've been simple in comparison.

so? He’s still not using his full power he stopped it cold, and sent it back.

Sure he can do better than buuhan, but none of that would make gt Goku above vegito. When there’s no link to vegito On the scaling chain.

Denial of this without any arguments is irrelevant.

its up to you to prove he’s vegito lEbro and you can’t do that without a direct compar

No, just showing buus durability isn’t his strong suit. Lots of projectiles can tear through him punches don’t.

Buu only gets damaged by weaker things if messing around. Ki blast from comparable opponents naturally do more damage to him though, as ki blasts are stronger than punches.

who’s to say he wasn’t messing around with goku? Clearly everyone he fights can blow off parts of buu. You have nothing to show Goku’s superiorit

Yeah, not a scratch on him.

Because it wasn't a significant injury, but it did cause him pain.

he was suppresed and buu couldn’t do any damage. buuhan can’t scale to him.

Newsflash, base Goku and freiza had a massive gap in power,

Goku can get stronger in base without surpassing frieza

Goku not being able to close that gap by the Buu Saga is still terrible. And you conveniently ignore how I sent Beerus saying that even MSSJ Goku would struggle to beat Frieza, meaning his power level is exactly the same.

thats a trash translation and irrelevant. Because we aren’t dealing with buu saga Goku.

And saiyan beyond god never vanished, it stays with him for the rest of the series.

SSJ2 Trunks before training with Vegeta rivals SSJ2 Goku. U6 fodder Saiyans can match them. Goku being able to go God again proves the form wasn't absorbed into his base either. And the worst part is that this still wouldn't close the gap on him and GT Goku.

he Didn’t absorb the god form into base, he retained the power, everyone that can match him. Scales up. Basic dragonball rules. Dbs Goku in base is far past GT Goku.

Extremely baseless, they are new characters you can’t just arbitrarily decide how strong they can be. They are as strong as current Goku and vegeta, that means they are above ssg god Goku from battle of gods. And they were noted to be the strongest in their universe and had lots of potential.

U6 Saiyans are not magically god level without evidence. Them fighting U7 ones are just one of many anti-feats to the Saiyan Beyond God BS.

they are god level, because U7 Goku and vegeta are god level and they can match them. Not the other way around. Pay attention. This is standard dragon ball logic.

No, I’m saying base caulifla and kale are stronger than bog Goku and vegeta,

Baseless. And my point on the god form multipliers sucking compared to inferior fusion multipliers than Vegito's still stands even if that was the case.

please pay attention, you’re argument falls apart here, because fusion is Character A power level x Characters B’s power level.
it’s not a static increase, the stronger the characters are the bigger the relative increase.

It’s definitely huge, even suppressed he was bullying buu. And went completely uninjured.

Again, he took minor damage, enough to cause actual pain, but not enough to cause any visible wounds or keep him in pain. He is much stronger, but he can't just tank everything Buu has with ease and definitely not his Vanishing Ball.

if he wasn’t damaged, so it seems like he totally can. the vanishing ball got stopped and kicked back. Couldn’t even move him form that spot

uub was not what Goku was hoping for period

Replying to scans by saying "No" essentially isn't an argument.

read the whole thing before responding

Uub is indeed the reincarnation of buu, but he’s not strong enough to have a chance at winning the tournament or giving Goku a good all out fight like he was hoping and expected.

Again, refer to the scans I sent. Goku was probably just being modest in regards to saying they may not win. Though it's possible he was factoring in the possibility of this Kid Buu reincarnation having trained,

headcanon.

so he doesn’t have access to all his power.

But Goku successfully got him pissed off, so he did bring it all out. He didn't bring out all of his potential though, as his potential is far higher than Kid Buu's default power level.

as shown by gohans rage moments and during the fight itself, rage doesn’t bring out all the battle power immediately. it fluctuates. Some burst are more powerful than others. uub was still playing catch up even when angry. He never showed kid buus full power.

True,but buu being relevant as a comparison in the sense that gets Goku excited to fight implies the gap isn’t that large.

That's disproven even by your own logic, since you think Base GT Goku is SSJ3/Kid Buu level, and he got significantly stronger to the point his base is now equal to or above his prior MSSJ state earlier on in GT. So the Buu comparison argument wouldn't even work under your interpretation. It was an odd comparison, but not one that throws out all other scaling, including your own, due to jumping to hasty conclusions.

that means Gt is inconsistent, or he didn’t stay in base during his fight with uub, it was off screen For most of it.

That’s not proof of Goku’s base increasing massively he hit bojack when he wasn’t looking, only using enough power to not kill base gohan.

Even base vegeta was able to make super perfect cell feel his ki blast

Yes, but Cell was blatantly suppressing his actual power to toy with Gohan and put the little he was using into the ki blast itself. That's a bit different from Bojack.

you made that up, nowhere is it stated cell is suppressing his power, it’s just easy to affect people stronger than you when they aren’t paying attention. Piccolo did it to 50% frieza. vegeta did it to cell, Goku did it to bojacl

Even so, we have other comparisons,like how Base Goku was able to really push 4th Form Cooler and seemingly had the upper hand, despite massively struggling and being blatantly inferior to 4th Form Frieza, with him still only being relative to his 50% power by using Kaioken x20. And if you argue that Cooler wasn't using 50% like Frieza, he went to his 5th Form to beat Goku, meaning he must've been significantly powered in his 4th, otherwise he would've drawn out more power in that form to beat him. The reason he'd skip going 100% is because anything beyond 50% in the 4th Form takes time to draw out, on top of being very straining and depleting ki rapidly, meaning the 5th Form is the best choice to go beyond 50% of his 4th Form.

doesn’t really mean anything. cooler Is weaker than 4th form frieza. He has the 5th form to close the gap.

Still nobody commented on Goku’s huge strength gains even after he recovered, and trunks was still seen as comparable to Goku and vegeta. And trunks wasn’t shown or commented as having massive strength gains.

Not commenting on them on-screen =/= they didn't happen.

you have to prove they saw it. The scan you sent only mentions hell as being affected. you’re using headcanon to inflate the feat.

YeAh, impossible to tell how much stronger that would make him though

He got 400x stronger or more from training for 5 years in EoZ off and on during times of peace and chilling. Training 5 more years constantly with someone who can keep up with him would logically yield a relative, if not bigger gain. And if you keep using this unquantifiable nonsense, the same can be applied to Super's scaling massively more so.

yeah, training increases are unquantifiable in both continuity. it’s all plot based. they vary wildly.

But maybe not because only rildo is noted as being greater than boo as a way to hype up his power, implying his most recent opponents were not greater than boo

Imagine of you applied your line of thinking to Super, which is far worse, yet you conveniently don't.

Goku's Rildo comparison was a bit wonky/lazy, that's all. It's blatantly contradicted by his more serious and detailed statements, on top of feats.

i do, you just fail at reading because you’re getting defensive.

i don’t know the only direct statement on buus power is rildo. Just another example of uub not necessarily being kid buu level

No, it only has the power to create the living world.

Never stated. We don't know how the entire reality/"macrocosm" came to be at all. It shaking hell is because he controlled his ki. And again, it engulfed the cosmos that Janemba had connected, meaning the explosion ranged over everything beyond just Hell. But even if this was only a universal feat, it is massively above BoG Goku because it was preformed by Gogeta merely coming into existence, as opposed to multiple shockwaves from two opponents slowly wearing out Universe 7 over time.

it doesn’t have to be, he compared it to the Big Bang. That’s a real life event. He didn’t compare it to the crestion of dragonballs univese. And being better than a non full power ssg Goku and beerus means diddly squat. shockwaves are not the be all end all.they used more power after that. Goku and beerus were capable of destroying hell, heaven, the universe. And the kaioshin realm with a single punch at full power.

And That dimension was already coming apart.

Same tired arguments from 15 years ago that have been dealt with that long ago as well. The dimension was not collapsing. That defeats the entire purpose of the Caretaker's goal, which was to trap Goku there forever. All they did was destroy the game in the dimension and the laws of it. If the dimension was already being destroyed, why the hell would Goku need to break out of it to escape if the Caretakers were already doing that for him?

they said the dimension was coming apart, actuslly it doesn’t even matter, it’s an unknown size and filled with empty space. it’s not a good feat. gotenks level is enough to blow holes in dimensions.

That is the baby saga , the lifting part of a city comes from the shadow dragons saga.

Pretty sure it wasn't, but I may be misremembering. But it doesn't matter, as I already explained that feat even factoring in the possibility of him not being weakened. SSJ4 has good ki control and would be better to properly lift it without destroying the building, on top of his mass being bigger due to a bigger body, so less of his force concentrated into a small spot that could likely destroy the building.

headcanon, and yes you are misremembering. lifting part of the city is his best feat, and he’s taking considerable effort. he was also getting pushed back by the building in base before he turned ssj 4. so it was definitely too much for base goku to lift for long.

Furthermore, lifting feats all the way back in OG Dragon Ball were horribly inconsistent and never scaled to the actual normal offensive power and durability of characters. The fact you're using this is extreme cope, especially considering that DBS Goku has bad feats of actual durability, scaling, etc.

i wasnt comparing attack potency I was comparing multiple stats. That show dbs Goku is better.

better lifting strength

better skill

better attack potency.

better speed

You’re arguments involve getting rid of context to low ball.

This part is turning into "Nuh uh" too, as you project your bad faith tactics onto me. Your arguments speak for themselves. Moving on.

no, the only one acting in bad faith is you.

And we know his ki was lowered because he was uninjured after catching much higher caliber bullets.

"Context for me, but not for thee." Your double standards are absurd. Toeiverse power increases can't be factored in because they are "unquantifiable" according to you, yet you use far more shaky and actually contradictory DBS powerscaling that is far more unquantifiable, on top of just general wank. Then you use two wonky GT feats without context, but then try to defend Super's MUCH wonkier and more damaging feats with context.

you really don’t understand. I have never even said dbs training power increases were quantifIable by looking at past gains. You keep attacking arguments I’m not making, the dbs power scaling ive used is not contradictory, you just have a low suspension of disbelief. so you assume new characters can’t be as strong as the story say they are . So you assume they are buu arc level.

Now this is an example of me using your logic against you, you attempted to lowball.

I haven't brought up shit-tier feats like the bullet feats until you brought up the city feat. Don't even go there.

how can you not understand that’s literally Goku’s best lifting feat in the toei verse. that’s not the nearly the same thing as you actively lowballing with a contextless feat.

That just makes krillin look good, I’m not sure why you think krillin is an anti feat after he’s explicitly gotten stronger then ever before.

So you actually think Krillin is Blue Goku level? lmao Look at the absurd scaling you use for DBS, but then desperately try to downplay and say "unquantifiable" for far more consistent and less absurd scaling.

see you just deny it because you think it’s absurd not based on what’s actually in the series. krillin gets a direct comparison to god Level characterz. he’s able to cut base Goku’s cheek. And force him into ssj to stop from getting taken out the ring. That’s quantifable

Herms post and a better translation

Assuming this is true, that translation basically says the same thing. Saying that Frieza is the best he could defeat means he'd struggle to do so and couldn't beat anyone else noticeably higher than him.

no, because struggle is not anywhere in that sentence. the only people stronger than u7 freiza beerus knows about are buu level people and maybe dabura, who’s super perfect cell level. Of course ssj Goku can’t beat those guys. So beating frieza is all he can do.

So? current Goku is stronger than battle of gods Goku.

You keep failing to read what I'm saying here.

Yes, I am giving an overall comparison and arguing that Buu Saga Vegito > that Kefla, as their base forms haven't gotten noticeably stronger at all.

this is wrong, please stop with the BS. you’re argument falls apart Here. i read what you are saying, but you’re just wrong.

However, I am also pointing out that Kefla's general fusion multiplier, ignoring the gaps in sagas, is also explicitly weaker than Vegito's, meaning the transformation multipliers of the god forms are below a fusion that has a weaker multiplier than Vegito.

no, because there is no general fusion multiplier. they are all different the stronger you are the greater the fusion increase. not just power level, but the actual relative increase

I have two arguments here basically. Yes, I am saying that Vegito in Z > Kefla, but I am also saying that even ignoring that, Kefla's fusion multiplier is inferior to what Vegito's fusion multiplier would be in ToP.

first part is wrong, but the second part I’ve never denied. I’ve acknowledged it. fusion increases aren’t static. ssg multiplier is.

The point of this is that the god form multipliers are not god-tier insane beyond comprehension, as they are literally below the fusion multiplier of someone below Vegito's own

they are, in comparison to a buu saga fusion.

I mention this since people wank the god forms as having billions or trillions of times multipliers from SSJ3. But for reference, if Buu Saga Goku went SSJG, he'd literally be getting stomped by Base Vegito in that saga and his Kaioken Blue self would get stomped by MSSJ Vegito.

no, bro, I’ve exploaned this multiple time. fusion isn’t a static increase.

No it doesn’t , because kefla is born from multiplying the power of two really people together. Her multiplier is just more insane than ssg

Her power is born of two people weaker than SSJ2 Goku in their own SSJ2-equivalent states. But yes, her multiplier is more insane than SSJG, as SSJG isn't trillions of times above SSJ3 like people make out, as it is explicitly below a sub-Vegito level fusion multiplier.

no, because fusion isn’t a static multiplier. and ssg is a trillion times stronger than ssj 3

We are talking about the narration that confirms Goku and beerus are hitting each other with the power to destroy the universe

Context. Power to destroy it with enough strikes, given the context from Old Kai and not at all going by the actual feats.

please, read properly. at no point does it say it would take multiple strikes. it says they hit each other with the power to destroy the universe multiple times. They are hitting each other with the power to destroy the universe itself. That’s not combined power. each is getting hit with an attack that can wipe out the universe multiple times.

Again, it wasn’t multiple attacks, its only one

The beam struggle threatening the universe was after the initial shockwaves weakened everything outside the safe zone. And if you're treating those later feats as separate from the shockwave feats, then there is no reason to assume it'd extend to beyond the mortal realm like the shockwaves. This doesn't work well either way, on top of the actual feats going against all statements to the point ki control isn't even a proper rationalization. But again, I'll allow you to use this if you stop the downplay of a much less wonky equivalent feat in M12.

They were talking about the entire macrosom not just explicitly hell, like the movie feat was.

We know they were talking about the macrocosm because at a lower level of power, the light from Goku and beerus beam struggle reached out to the kaioshin realm,

and supreme kai was scared for his life, they thought they were gonna die, but they were spared, because beerus nullified the energy.

Unlike movie 12, we have explicit confirmation it effected more than one dimension. You’re just Kinda assuming the galaxy looking thing shown is the macrocosm.

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takenstew22

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#38  Edited By takenstew22  Moderator

@seventhmoon: You do know that Jiren casually blocked all of SSG Goku's attacks with his finger right? The same punches that were threatening the universe in the fight with Beerus? You're acting as if DBS characters don't get several, even many times stronger when that's shown to be blatantly false. You said yourself in your own argument that PIS is a prevalent issue. Blame the writers that U6 Saiyans can keep up with U7. It is what it is. That don't mean DBS is weak. SSJ2 Kefla being able to (barely) match UI Omen is a feat for her. In fact, her power was directly compared to the Spirit Bomb Goku used against Jiren. An attack that Jiren also deflected with minimal effort.

Zeno erased an entire timeline (that includes 12 universes) with a gesture. If there is anything in GT that comes close to that, I would like to see it.

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@seventhmoon:

the long form post are getting too long to respond too. so I’ll simplify the things we disagree on.

The gains or lack thereof that take place before gt and super are irrelevant. Because they have different increases in Gt and super. The training gains based on time are unquantifiable because they are all head canon. the only increases relevant have to be shown through direct comparisons. For both series


1: DBS base Goku’s power

he’s not still at buu saga levels. He kept the power boost he got from the ritual. He didn’t trade in the ssg transformation. his body got a permanent boost, and he’s able to add god ki on top of that. Ssb is just going super saiyan while using the ssg transformation of course he’s always had ssg, he just never bothered using it until the tournament of power.

God ki is not able to be sensed by mortals, we know his base form wasn’t using God ki in ROF or in BOG post ritual because he was being sensed by all the z fighters.

and his base was shown to be super strong, he was several Frieza transformations above Ssj ROF Gohan, who was stronger than BUU saga Piccolo in base, and was able to beat up Tagoma who was still conscious after taking a headbutt to the Nuts by ssj Gotenks.

2: when gt goku surpasses buu saga fusion

you think based on your head canon for his training gains he must have already passed this level. You cant use head canon for this, the only time we get a comparison is when super baby 1 says he has the greatest saiyan power In history. he didn’t say this until after getting ki from the other saiyans.

But we know he was stronger than ssj 3 Goku even before this point, so he must be talking about the only saiyan who can be stronger than Goku , Vegito, or gogeta if you think the movies apply.

3: if ssj gogetas feat is as impressive as Goku and beerus

i suggest just equalizing Gogeta and Bog Goku’s feat. Because both are just an unquantifiable amount above universe level. Gogeta forming into a ssj creating a universal explosion. and BOG Beerus nullifying universal energy just by flexing his aura. are about the same level.

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#40  Edited By YuMira

Been off for a few months and DBS still gets downplayed while the other verses seem to get a free pass 😂

DBS has better feats and not even GT can keep up with DBS scaling chain.

Edit: Base Goku not being universal has to be one of the cringest things ever. The very defintion when it comes to recycling old arguments.

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#41  Edited By YuMira
@takenstew22 said:

@seventhmoon: You do know that Jiren casually blocked all of SSG Goku's attacks with his finger right? The same punches that were threatening the universe in the fight with Beerus? You're acting as if DBS characters don't get several, even many times stronger when that's shown to be blatantly false. You said yourself in your own argument that PIS is a prevalent issue. Blame the writers that U6 Saiyans can keep up with U7. It is what it is. That don't mean DBS is weak. SSJ2 Kefla being able to (barely) match UI Omen is a feat for her. In fact, her power was directly compared to the Spirit Bomb Goku used against Jiren. An attack that Jiren also deflected with minimal effort.

Zeno erased an entire timeline (that includes 12 universes) with a gesture. If there is anything in GT that comes close to that, I would like to see it.

GT is super strong AND underrated but ... If we go by feats:

Dragonball timeline: Zenos place > neutral zone with its own space time that surrounds everything >> null realm > angel realm + 12 universes with multiple universal sized space times

Zeno can destroy that with ez and its even confirmed by the official dragonball stie (it aint needed, since manga makes it pretty clear and for the anime it only req 2 brain cells)

You can count the popular mangas/webtoons who can do the same on 1 or maybe 2 fingers.

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SeventhMoon

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#42  Edited By SeventhMoon

@seventhmoon: He cannot solo the verse the angels exist they are literally immortal and can strip Gogeta of his power or use hax

They are immortal, but can be rendered inactive the moment their GoD dies. And nothing indicated they are remotely relevant in power to GT characters to where they can harm them. And the hax you've mentioned they have never been shown to have, beyond GP disabling flight. These aren't Caretaker-tier entities that can manipulate laws to completely negate the usage of abilities, ki, etc.

@xd_ist said:

@seventhmoon: Babidi's minions were stated to be stronger than Frieza. Beerus most likely just forgot how strong Frieza really was

Maybe, but this wouldn't be the first illogical recton DBS has made to Z. Maybe I could get let someone disregard this statement if I was being generous, but not against someone who keeps handwaving Toeiverse Goku's base power growth for no real reason.

@hoopla001so? He’s still not using his full power he stopped it cold, and sent it back.

Him sending it back doesn't mean he isn't using his full power. What are you on about? The only sense that he isn't using his full power is that he is not amplifying his ki through a certain technique like a Kamehameha, but his actual default physical might was at max, considering he struggled with Buu's Vanishing Ball. Him pushing it back means nothing more than him at full power being stronger than it by a bit without the use of special techniques to push it back. Why the hell did Vegito even go MSSJ if he was that much stronger in base?

who’s to say he wasn’t messing around with goku?

Based off the fact that Kid Buu was struggling massively against SSJ3 Goku and wasn't stomping him while toying around like he did with Vegeta.

he was suppresed and buu couldn’t do any damage. buuhan can’t scale to him.

Repeating debunked arguments isn't changing anything. I'll count this as a concession then and move on.

thats a trash translation and irrelevant.

Firstly, I have literally no reason to believe that, and secondly, the translation you sent generally says the same thing.

he Didn’t absorb the god form into base, he retained the power, everyone that can match him.

Nope, as you'd need evidence for that. SSJ2 Trunks matching SSJ2 Goku means Goku did not retain that base power. Hell, Trunks in the Future Buu Saga was struggling with Dabura and only defeated him with high difficulty, meaning his base increases were very little.

it’s not a static increase, the stronger the characters are the bigger the relative increase.

Rectonned by DBS:

No Caption Provided

read the whole thing before responding

I did.

headcanon.

Fact of the matter is Uub is equal to Kid Buu via the evidence I provided. To go against this is to go against canon.

Some burst are more powerful than others. uub was still playing catch up even when angry.

Gohan's rage is something exclusive to him as a special trait, as that's stated to be something special about him. We never see any other character get rage amps like him, unless it's a transformation. And no, we are not counting Super where Vegeta got a random PIS amp, as that is not canon to Toeiverse.

Furthermore, Uub was not getting amped by rage and instead simply using the power he always had access to and can use at any time. He didn't even need the rage to do it actually. He just needed to stop being timid and scared to the point he couldn't even properly fight. Goku's method to achieve this was making him angry. Again, it's not the anger he needed, but the ability to overcome his fear and meekness that made him unable to fight. Furthermore, Vegeta said he is learning to fight better, not that he is constantly growing in power. But if he was, that's a feat for Uub, as we know he can surpass Kid Buu massively via GT. He was playing catch up because EoZ Goku in base was just that strong.

that means Gt is inconsistent,

A minorly odd statement from Goku that doesn't really contradict anything and is simply a dumb measurement isn't really a notable inconsistency.

or he didn’t stay in base during his fight with uub, it was off screen For most of it.

Apparently me giving explanations to rationalize established events and lore is headcanon, but you can make up something like this out of nowhere and it's supposedly not headcanon. Double standards yet again.

And your actual headcanon doesn't fail to rationalize anything due to EoZ Goku.

nowhere is it stated cell is suppressing his power

Cell specifically stated that he was trying to make the final clash more climactic and kept matching Gohan's power output the more he pumped into it. Seriously, every time Gohan found more strength to draw from, Cell casually powered up and matched it. Furthermore, the fact Cell didn't instantly overwhelm Gohan is proof that he was holding back, considering the fact Cell one-shotted Gohan's arm and dropped his ki levels to less than half with a finger beam, one that Gohan was actively trying to intercept and block in SSJ2. If a finger blast did that to Gohan at full power, a serious Kamehameha would instantly obliterate an extremely injured version of him.

Piccolo did it to 50% frieza.

Forgot about that one, so that may help you. But that doesn't help you with the other examples of Goku's massive power increases in base.

doesn’t really mean anything. coolerIs weaker than 4th form frieza.

Pretty sure that is a dub localization, as I cannot find that anywhere in the Japanese version. In fact, going back to it for a moment, Cooler says that Base Goku is enough to have defeated Frieza here:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

So Base Goku is already above Frieza at this point.

you have to prove they saw it.

I don't, as you are assuming they didn't for no reason to go against what was shown.

The scan you sent only mentions hell as being affected.

The realms were connected and the cosmos was engulfed by the explosion. Hell trembling alone just means ground zero for it, despite ki control, shook it a little bit. It doesn't change the fact that the explosion went beyond hell. You do realize that the afterlife as a whole was merged all together, right?

And again, if it was only universal, it's higher for the fact Gogeta's mere existence caused it, on top of almost everyone else massively upscaling from him in GT.

yeah, training increases are unquantifiable in both continuity. it’s all plot based. they vary wildly.

What? Then why are you arguing that Super has better scaling? lmao You're typing nonsense then by your own admission.

i do, you just fail at reading because you’re getting defensive.

Failed psychological evaluation. I'm not emotionally invested in this at all.

i don’t know the only direct statement on buus power is rildo. Just another example of uub not necessarily being kid buu level

You're acting as if Goku said he's equal to Buu. He just said his power is even greater. Is that a weird and wonky comparison? Yes. Does that solidify Rildo is only a bit above Buu and overrides all other far more detailed evidence that suggests the contrary? No.

And being better than a non full power ssg Goku and beerus means diddly squat. shockwaves are not the be all end all.they used more power after that. Goku and beerus were capable of destroying hell, heaven, the universe. And the kaioshin realm with a single punch at full power.

Several shockwaves were going to destroy the universe eventually, meaning they were weakening it. Any attack afterwards that was going to one-shot it all was after the initial two shockwaves weakened everything. There's a reason they were scared that the third shockwave would end everything magically, despite the first 2 barely doing any damage anywhere in all of U7. This means BoG Goku has absolutely nothing to suggest he can one-shot all of U7 immediately in a single attack. The first two shockwaves that were generated from both him and Beerus together weakened the universe to the point a third shockwave or any other significant attack would destroy it all. Even if we say Gogeta's feat is only universal, it was in a single explosion that was generated by his mere existence, making him massively above just universal and is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God Goku as a result.

they said the dimension was coming apart

They said the space was collapsing, referring to the game area they were standing on. You didn't address how the dimension collapsing goes entirely against the Caretaker's goal and the need for Goku to destroy the dimension to escape being there forever.

it’s an unknown size and filled with empty space.

Empty space doesn't really matter when you're destroying the space itself.

But yes, the dimension does have an unknown size. The point of it was that you're making out GT Goku is fodder because of an odd building feat in a franchise that consistently has inconsistent lifting feats, with lifting feats not scaling to attack power in any capacity. I mentioned that feat as one Goku did in base to show you that you're cherry picking and also leaving out context, since you were implying GT Goku is building level.

gotenks level is enough to blow holes in dimensions.

Opening a wormhole =/= destroying an entire dimension.

headcanon

Headcanon to use physical logic where not contradicted to explain a feat? Headcanon to say that lifting strength doesn't equate to striking strength, durability, etc.? So you must think DB Goku can't lift a car, considering the turtle shells on his back during training weighed far less than that. You also must think Toeiverse Goku can't even strike with the force of 40 tons in base due to that shitty lifting feat. But of course, you'll provide context (shitty context at that) and mental gymnastics for Super's much shittier feats.

i wasnt comparing attack potency I was comparing multiple stats. That show dbs Goku is better.

You didn't mention that really. You just randomly brought it up without specifying the intent, naturally leading anyone to believe you were just trying to use the feat to argue GT Goku is weak in general, as many have done. If your comparison is lifting strength (which I never even mentioned), whatever. But DBS Goku doesn't have any lifting strength feats really beyond a fake black hole that didn't have the actual traits of a black hole for the most part. Regardless, this is irrelevant to the actual combative strength we've been comparing for the most part.

better skill

Again, Pre-Recton Z and Toeiverse had Kid Goku learn UI from Mr. Popo back in Dragon Ball, meaning DBS Goku is all the way back there in terms of skill.

better attack potency.

Yeah no. I've blown this out the water. M12 Gogeta >>>>>>>>> God Goku, who people in GT horrendously upscale from.

better speed

We've never even discussed speed here, but we can do that now. If we say that GT goes off of mainline Toeiverse and the few movies it connects to, then mainline has Cell Saga Goku in base traversed the afterlife all the way to Hell, which has been calced anywhere from 214.99318 sextillion to 17.916098 sextillion times FTL, as calced > here. < (Yes, I know it is VSBW, but I am simply using a calc unrelated to their shitty tiering system and logic that seems to be relatively fine.)

If we argue that GT is in the M1-13 timeline of Toeiverse exclusively, then we have bullshit like M6 Goku fighting Cooler inside Instant Transmission, meaning they are moving in hyper-time, aka a higher time stream that normal time is stagnate in comparison to, with them not even to use the iconic IT finger gesture to activate it at close range. And everyone and their mother would scale to this oddly enough through their own speed generated through their power, since others can clearly keep up with this Goku and Cooler.

I have never even said dbs training power increases were quantifIable by looking at past gains.

Then why are you making out that DBS has superior scaling?

see you just deny it because you think it’s absurd

No, the literal story falls apart to assume this. Krillin could've trained a tiny bit to give Beerus an equally impressive fight as God Goku did, considering he made a much stronger Blue Goku struggle against him. Anyone could've given Beerus a good fight then. They could've just sent anyone into the RoSaT for a day (year in there) and try to convince him to wait.

And why did Krillin struggle against people far beneath Blue Goku later in the ToP?

he’s able to cut base Goku’s cheek. And force him into ssj to stop from getting taken out the ring.That’s quantifable

Almost like he isn't god level in base.

the only people stronger than u7 freiza beerus knows about are buu level people and maybe dabura, who’s super perfect cell level.

There is absolutely nothing stating that Beerus doesn't know of anyone else aside from those two that are above Frieza. And MSSJ Goku after the Buu Saga not being able to beat normal Perfect Cell/Dabura would also be shit and mean that his base gains are far below Toeiverse Goku still.

it says they hit each other with the power to destroy the universe multiple times. They are hitting each other with the power to destroy the universe itself. That’s not combined power.

But feats show they explicitly were not, as the shockwaves from both of them outside of the safe zone didn't destroy hardly anything. At best, it took the first two to weaken the universe to where later attacks could destroy them.

You’re just Kinda assuming the galaxy looking thing shown is the macrocosm.

There was a cosmos in the background beyond just that little disk.

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YuMira

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#43  Edited By YuMira

I could see GT stomping DBS if we use the daizenshu, the newer one from Toriyama and if we take Z anime directors statement of DB being infinite in size ... yeah I could see GT winning this one.

3 sauces that states DB is infinite in size.

Imo 1 anti feat doesnt really debunk the fuck ton of proof of something but its funny that GT and even DBZ could solo DBS if we go full rage since they lack the edge thingy.

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#44  Edited By JermaineKoloch  Online

@seventhmoon: You would need Gogeta to have knowledge on the God ties. He doesn't. Additionally movie scaling only gets them to universal+/low multiversal. They have no statements or feats beyond it so he can't scale above DBS, at best he is just on their level. Ssj4 Gogeta has no resistance to power stripping, existence erasure, time manipulation, layered dimensional sealing etc.

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hoopla001

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#45  Edited By hoopla001

@seventhmoon:

Again, Pre-Recton Z and Toeiverse had Kid Goku learn UI from Mr. Popo back in Dragon Ball, meaning DBS Goku is all the way back there in terms of skill.

you’re just repeating stuff I’ve already debunked. popo didn’t teach him UI, Ui is a technique far beyond That, it actually increases your power and speed. they arent comparable

Dbs Goku feats of Predicting attacks that skip time>>>> all of the toei verse in terms of skill.

better attack potency.

Yeah no. I've blown this out the water. M12 Gogeta >>>>>>>>> God Goku, who people in GT horrendously upscale from.

you haven’t, you made up something about the universe being weakened. that’s never stated or implied anywhere. m12 gogeta is at most equal to BOG Goku.

You keep focussing on the shockwaves which I’ve explained to you were caused by a weaker Goku and beerus. You’re not paying attention

Rectonned by DBS:

no, It wasn’t. tens of times is Just a expression to say their power increases a lot. thats why there isn’t a specific number. trying to lowball it would lead to base fusion being weaker than ssj 2.

the official guidebook explanation stands

its AxB

We've never even discussed speed here, but we can do that now. If we say that GT goes off of mainline Toeiverse and the few movies it connects to, then mainline has Cell Saga Goku in base traversed the afterlife all the way to Hell, which has been calced anywhere from 214.99318 sextillion to 17.916098 sextillion times FTL, as calced > here. < (Yes, I know it is VSBW, but I am simply using a calc unrelated to their shitty tiering system and logic that seems to be relatively fine.)

not as fast as the energy Goku and beerus reacted too in BOG

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Omegabronic/DBS_Conservative_Speed_Multipliers_Recalc_edition

If we argue that GT is in the M1-13 timeline of Toeiverse exclusively, then we have bullshit like M6 Goku fighting Cooler inside Instant Transmission, meaning they are moving in hyper-time, aka a higher time stream that normal time is stagnate in comparison to, with them not even to use the iconic IT finger gesture to activate it at close range. And everyone and their mother would scale to this oddly enough through their own speed generated through their power, since others can clearly keep up with this Goku and Cooler.

well this doesn’t scale to their base speed, it’s only possible because they both have Instant transmission and are in the same dimension. it’s like saying a regular human, can fight at 500 mph for being able to move in a plane

when using instant transmission on people who don’t have that technique, people get blitzed.

like cell,

and super 17

https://imgur.com/1A7928J

he cant actually track Goku, but he can tell when he reappears

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#46  Edited By YuMira
@jermainekoloch said:

@seventhmoon: false, you would need Gogeta to have knowledge on the God ties. He doesn't. Movie scaling only gets them to universal+/low multiversal. They have no statements or feats beyond it so he doesn't scale above DBS at best he is just on their level. Ssj4 Gogeta has no resistance to power stripping, existence erasure, time manipulation, layered dimensional sealing etc.

To be fair ... it was just done via raw KI. Not time power, not God KI nor angle power so even GT characters should scale to it.

Do you remember the Bojack movie? The midget guy? The guidebook confirmed that dudes ability powernulls you. Teen Gohan showed some resistance to it and imo every single dragonball character should scale to it since it was done via normal KI.

You dont have to accept it but still a cool thing to know.

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#47  Edited By JermaineKoloch  Online

@yumira: okay good point, but they can literally remove immortality from someone. That is on another level. And then Gogeta being more powerful than Goku let alone the angels is already questionable

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#48  Edited By YuMira
@jermainekoloch said:

@yumira: okay, but they can literally remove immortality from someone. That is on another level.

GT cant do shit against mid tiers like destroyes/angels and god tiers like GP/Zeno/Super Shenron and maybe guards.

GPs EE works on a multiversal range which is cool as fuck.

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#49  Edited By SeventhMoon

@hoopla001 I didn't see that new post of yours. I'll break down my arguments then.

Summary of Arguments

  • Gogeta created a "big-bang level explosion" just by coming into existence. Because this feat happened as a result of merely coming into existence, his actual attack power would make him far stronger.
  • God Goku's clashes with Beerus are extremely shaky, as the shockwaves even after leaving Goku's safe zone of protection that nullified their damage was still only destroying a few planets here and there. This is odd, as it's stated that three of those shockwaves would end Universe 7. Despite this, two of these shockwaves went off successfully and didn't nuke all of the mortal realm outside of Goku's safe zone, nor do any damage to the afterlife. This makes it being a universal feat at all highly questionable, but we can argue that the shockwaves just vaguely weakened Universe 7 to the point where any third uncontrolled attack would wipe it out. Since U7 is bigger than our universe, we could say that counterbalances Goku needing multiple shockwaves to weaken it verse and just say it's universal. I don't think it is, but trying to be generous to Goku here.
  • You could argue Gogeta's explosion engulfed the "macrocosm", since Janemba had the realms connected and we see the explosion seemingly engulf the cosmos. But if we reject this, it is still stated to be a big-bang level explosion. And since it was a result of him simply coming into existence, again, this would put his actual attack power massively higher than just universal and thus far above God Goku.
  • One may say that Goku's feat is superior because it still threatened several universes, since Universe 7 is comprised of several, but this is a line of thinking created by the VSBattlesWiki, which doesn't work. The idea is that since we don't know how far a part universes are from each other, we shouldn't assume someone that is billions or even trillions of times stronger than a universe buster is multiversal. So a feat of destroying two universes is something inaccessibly higher than any form of scaling above normal universe busting that isn't an actual feat of affecting more than one universe. This line of thinking is asinine, as it requires infinite assumptions. A better way to go about things is simply ignoring any hypothetical distance between universes, as it is usually unknowable/not stated and just going off how many times stronger you are than a universe buster. There is absolutely no way you're convincing me that someone who has a feat of destroying two universally is inaccessibly stronger than and can one-shot someone who is shown to be octillions of times above a single universe buster. That's absurd.
  • One may make a variation of the above argument and say that destroying multiple universes should be inaccessibly higher than scaling above a single universe buster by being x amount of times stronger if said universes are different realities, aka their own spatially closed worlds/dimensions that no amount of distance travelled can reach. However, reaching these worlds wouldn't be a matter of power, but of hax. You'd need the capability for your attacks to access different dimensions, which isn't really a matter of raw power. You'd need power to destroy everything in those dimensions or the dimensions themselves once you access them, but accessing them in of itself isn't related to raw power, meaning this can't be factored in.
  • Now, in terms of scaling, I argue that DBS's Saiyan Beyond God where Goku absorbed his SSJG power into base was rectonned to be a temporary thing, as he has anti-feats to this, such as him being able to transform into SSJG later, on top of Future Trunks before training with Vegeta being able to match SSJ2 Goku, Good Buu with no training of any kind being able to fight Basil, who could fight Base Goku, etc. This completely disproves Base Goku in DBS being SSJG level. And even if he was, it wouldn't help him.
  • Back to Toeiverse, Kid Buu is stated to be the strongest Buu in that canon several times, putting him above Buuhan. We do not know specifically how Goku got strong enough to contend with him, but fact of the matter is that he did. Though a theory is that Vegito's unintended odd defusion that should've never have happened left Goku and Vegeta with a portion of his power. This is a theory for how they got stronger, but even if you dismiss it, it doesn't change the fact that they did get stronger, which is proven by feats. At worst, this just means we don't have an explanation as to why if you dismiss this.
  • Kid Buu being above Buuhan is important here. Why? Well, Vegito is relative to Gogeta for obvious reasons (both being fusions of the same people), making him relative to Gogeta's M12 feat. Buuhan was able to cause momentary minor pain to Base Vegito with his punches, despite being clearly inferior. Not only that, but his Vanishing Ball actually made Vegito struggle to push it back with his hands, as we see him taking it seriously, grunting, and being pushed into the ground trying to hold it off. He overcomes it of course, but this shows that Base Vegito, despite being significantly stronger than Buuhan, isn't inconceivably above him.
  • While we don't know exactly how much stronger Kid Buu is than Buuhan, him being stronger at all means he'd do a bit better against Vegito, who Buuhan could already barely cause a bit of pain too and make him struggle via his ki attacks.
  • Now we get to Uub, who is the reincarnation of Kid Buu. The only difference between him is lacking Buu's biology, as he was born a human, on top of lacking the knowledge on how to properly utilize ki. However, his raw power should be equal to Kid Buu's by default without any training. Why? Because Kid Buu himself was as strong as he was with zero training, meaning his reincarnation should be the same. Uub only needed to stop being scared and timid to draw out that raw power, to which he did. This is significant, as EoZ Goku training for 5 years after the Buu Saga is stronger than this Uub in his base form. This means Base EoZ Goku is stronger than Kid Buu, who is stronger than Buuhan, who can land hits on and cause brief pain to Base Vegito. This should make EoZ Goku relative to Vegito, who is relative to Gogeta, who has the universal feat in MSSJ caused by his mere existence, putting it much higher than universal. This means that MSSJ EoZ Goku is massively above universal due to scaling to the Gogeta that did that feat.
  • GT Goku then trained for another 5 years and constantly at that, as he spent that entire time training with Uub, meaning he got either a relative or even higher power boost compared to his 5 year training from the Buu Saga to EoZ, meaning Base Goku at the start of GT should already be beyond Gogeta and Vegito from back then as a whole, including their SSJ3 states.
  • Goku then gets massively more powerful throughout GT, as he goes from him and Trunks both struggling against Lord Luud in their MSSJ states, to Base Goku later on fighting the Sigma Force, who are stated to be the strongest guys he has fought in a while, with Luud being one of the last people he fought not too long prior, meaning Goku's base state surpassed his MSSJ state at the start of GT. (There are more base power increases IIRC, but I'll just continue on to the major ones to keep this short.)
  • After that, Goku in the Super 17 Arc in MSSJ was initially stomping a Super 17 that was stomping Majuub, who could hold his own against Final Form Baby, who could tank and instantly stomp SSJ3 Goku from the Baby Saga.
  • Lastly, Goku getting healed in the Shadow Dragon Saga made him go from getting stomped by Syn to stomping him, which should translated to his base power as well. So we have EoZ Goku being relative to his Buu Saga fusions, who are massively above universal in MSSJ. We then have Goku training for another 5 years more intensely on top of that. We then have his base form get a power boost surpass his MSSJ state. We then see him get another power boost to where his MSSJ state stomped someone that stomped someone who contended with a guy that stomped his SSJ3 state previously. Then we have him gain another boost where he stomped someone that stomped him initially.
  • For speed comparisons, if we say that GT goes off of mainline Toeiverse and the few movies it connects to, then mainline has Cell Saga Goku in base traversed the afterlife all the way to Hell, which has been calced anywhere from 214.99318 sextillion to 17.916098 sextillion times FTL, as calced > here. <(Yes, I know it is VSBW, but I am simply using a calc unrelated to their shitty tiering system and logic that seems to be relatively fine.)
  • If we argue that GT is in the M1-13 timeline of Toeiverse exclusively, then we have bullshit like M6 Goku fighting Cooler inside Instant Transmission, meaning they are moving in hyper-time, aka a higher time stream that normal time is stagnate in comparison to, with them not even to use the iconic IT finger gesture to activate it at close range. And everyone and their mother would scale to this oddly enough through their own speed generated through their power, since others can clearly keep up with this Goku and Cooler.

  • Furthermore, god form multipliers are not billions or trillions of times above SSJ3 like many people claim, as SSJG Goku was massively inferior to a base form Saiyan fusion with no rival boost and of which was made up of two people individual weaker than Goku (Kefla), with SSJ1 Kefla stomping Blue Kaioken Goku even, and her SSJ2 self with her technique being able to one-shot UI Goku if she actually hit him, meaning you cannot argue that god forms have an inconceivably higher multiplier than SSJ3.

Edit: To elaborate on the fusion point more, Goku couldn't sense Beerus's ki when he made the claim that even fusion wouldn't work. And he couldn't tell based off how hard Beerus hit him, considering Vegito could've beaten him just as easily, meaning this was a complete assumption. Him not correcting himself later is not the same as doubling down on his claim. He either didn't feel like mentioning it or forgot about it. Fact of the matter is that Kefla already proves the god multipliers are below a fusion multiplier that is below Vegito..

There are other arguments, but I feel these should be the main ones to mention. GT has far better scaling off of a far better power feat, let alone the speed scaling.

Lastly, a bit off-topic, but the Caretakers have the law manipulation feats to solo DBS entirely, regardless of power level. And EoGT Goku actually has some crazy shit too if you actually look at what he did in M14, as well as some of the statements from the writers.

@takenstew22 said:

@seventhmoon: You do know that Jiren casually blocked all of SSG Goku's attacks with his finger right? The same punches that were threatening the universe in the fight with Beerus?

Which is still less impressive than creating an explosion on that scale instantly just by coming into existence.

You're acting as if DBS characters don't get several, even many times stronger when that's shown to be blatantly false.

Via transformations? Sure. In base power? That's not shown for the majority of characters, at least not much.

Zeno erased an entire timeline (that includes 12 universes) with a gesture. If there is anything in GT that comes close to that, I would like to see it.

Zeno's feat is a hax one, considering he's physically not that great, as he couldn't track Dyspo's movement (speed scales to power in DB) and he need body guards. He just has good erasure unbound by raw power. It'd work on most GT characters if not for getting blitzed.

Furthermore, if you intend on arguing it's a raw power feat, GT characters massively upscale from M12 Gogeta as a whole, let alone just MSSJ Gogeta, who is already far above universe level due to the nature of how his feat was generated, meaning that destroying 12 realms with around three or so universes in them isn't impressive at all to GT.

SSJ2 Kefla being able to (barely) match UI Omen is a feat for her.

SSJ2 Kefla matching UI means that UI has an inferior multiplier to a non-rival boosted SSJ2 fusion made up of two people individually weaker than Goku and Vegeta. That means god form multipliers are not billions of trillions of times above SSJ3 like people claim them to be.

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hoopla001

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#50  Edited By hoopla001

@seventhmoon:

  • Gogeta created a "big-bang level explosion" just by coming into existence. Because this feat happened as a result of merely coming into existence, his actual attack power would make him far stronger.

yes, but you don’t know exactly how much stronger. and Goku and beerus are also far stronger than universal. I’ve never claimed the shockwaves made Goku universal. We have a narrator confirming they were hitting hard enough to destroy universe 7. and they only get stronger after that. In that same fight. Beerus was able easily nullify universal energy with his aura but Ssj post ritual Goku’s energy was so great beerus couldn’t nullify it. if you don’t agree with dimensional tiering . They can just be same the level and we can judge by how much stronger TOP Goku and caulifla are than ssj gogeta/ bog arc Goku.

  • This means that MSSJ EoZ Goku is massively above universal due to scaling to the Gogeta that did that feat.

Problem is he doesn’t scale until ssj 4

No Caption Provided

Now, the anime says super baby has the greatest saiyan power. So I’m willing to say ssj 4 is a good bit stronger. But you definitely can’t claim that Goku is buu arc fusion level until ssj 4. because he’s weaker than baby as a ssj 3. And Baby needed another power boost after stomping Goku to safely call himself the strongest saiyan In history. Now you admit buuhan has a significant power disadvantage compared to base vegito. So he’s not relative to him at all. being stronger than buuhan in base even with 5 extra years of training will not necessarily make Goku buu arc fusion level. theres no stated number on the gap, and the only direct comparisons are made with characters far stronger than EOZ Goku. both in and out of universe.

  • Furthermore, god form multipliers are not billions or trillions of times above SSJ3 like many people claim, as SSJG Goku was massively inferior to a base form Saiyan fusion with no rival boost and of which was made up of two people individual weaker than Goku (Kefla), with SSJ1 Kefla stomping Blue Kaioken Goku even, and her SSJ2 self with her technique being able to one-shot UI Goku if she actually hit him, meaning you cannot argue that god forms have an inconceivably higher multiplier than SSJ3

this is faulty logic as I’ve proven ssg is far above the buu arc fusion.

goku needed something stronger than vegito. He acknowledges Vegito couldn’t win before. So He’s hoping for a power greater than vegitos or else he would have just fused with vegeta and ssg is explicitly

No Caption Provided

and that fusion isn’t a static increase, it’s AxB

No Caption Provided

its not a static multiplier other fusions being stronger doesn’t retcon battle of gods. Its simply the consequence of growing stronger.

Now you have explained that Goku gets a bunch of boost in Gt

well super also gets Major boost

vegeta is trained by whis for 6 months and goes from buu arc level to equal to post God ritual Goku. which is explicitly above buu arc fusions. Goku then joins his training for an additional 6 months. And gets more powerful as noted by beerus. He then trains hard with vegeta for an additional 3 years in the hyperbolic time chamber. And both are noted to have gotten stronger.

then during the black arc, goku black gets strong enough to body ssj blue vegeta and tank all his attacks in just base form.

but both vegeta and Goku are able to match Blacks SSJ rose which is just his version of super Saiyan blue, after training. so they are now as strong as last arcs ssb in base.

Goku is then able to overcome Goku blacks potara fusion with zamasu which even vegeta blue and trunks weren’t able to overcome. Goku was able to permanently scar merged zamasu After piercing through his blast with a full power Kamehameha so He’s essentially as strong as a u6 arc vegito blue. Because future zamasu was able to fight evenly with early black arc blue goku.

merged zamasu was able to compete with vegito blue later because hes immortal and can continual grow in power even mid fight

https://imgur.com/gallery/S18gG

and Caulifla is able to match this Goku’s base form. before he gets stronger throughout the tournament. but her ssj 2 was stronger than his base. and kale was relative to Gokus ssj 2.