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#1 Edited by omriamar (3551 posts) - - Show Bio

No Morals No Time Cage For Hit 1 Hour Time Limit For Kefla Is ON Fight At The TOP Arena To The Death!!!

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#2 Posted by sky_warrior (586 posts) - - Show Bio

Kefla easily

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#3 Posted by jashro44 (46786 posts) - - Show Bio

Has Goku used Kaio-ken X20? I thought he was using Kaio-ken X10? Anyways I back Kefla under these conditions. Hit would solo with his time skip though.

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#4 Edited by Jooosh1996 (1518 posts) - - Show Bio

Kelfa was pushed back by a KKx20 Goku and only one shotted him as he was injured and fatigued. I could see a fresh KKx20 Goku taking it himself. Hit and Goku together take it.

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#5 Posted by Cerberus369616 (2054 posts) - - Show Bio

@omriamar: When you say no Time Stop do you mean no time skip? Does he still have Time Cage and his other abilities related to time skip but not actually time skip like his ability to hid in other dimensions or create illusions?

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#6 Posted by Helloman (11288 posts) - - Show Bio

Kefla wins.

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#7 Posted by Xy (466 posts) - - Show Bio

Base Kefla stomped SSG Goku and contended easily with his SSB. I have to rewatch to see if he used Kaioken there. Anyway, SSJ2 Kefla is WAY stronger. She wins.

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#8 Posted by omriamar (3551 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by AlexTheBoss (10613 posts) - - Show Bio

Hit without time stop is basically a non factor. He isn't even regular Blue level.

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#10 Posted by BlackWizzard17 (285 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku stomps BY himself. He has his full power where as he didn't when fighting ssj1 Kefla. Hit was outclassed before but adapted and found his opponents weakness so he is could take it as well although with difficulty.

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#11 Posted by Thedarkking25 (645 posts) - - Show Bio

Base Kelfa wouldn't be stronger then a fully rested ssj1 goku cause imma HER BASE IS ONLY multiplied by 10 -_-

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#12 Posted by gunchar16 (1342 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by gunchar16 (1342 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku stomps BY himself. He has his full power where as he didn't when fighting ssj1 Kefla.

SSJ2 Kefla....

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#14 Posted by slimj87d (14323 posts) - - Show Bio

@jooosh1996: Kefla wasn't fully using her power against SSBKK Goku. She later powered up more and then she even goes SS2 against UI Goku.

Iirc, it was said that Kefla was physically more powerful than UI Goku but he was a much better fighter than her since he didn't have to think about his movements.

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#15 Posted by slimj87d (14323 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkking25: I'm not a Kefla fan, but it was said to be multiplied by 10s, that's plural. That's a unspecified number.

It can even mean 10 to the power, 10^X.

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#16 Posted by BlackWizzard17 (285 posts) - - Show Bio

@gunchar16:

He was in kiaoken worn out (even Beerus said he was using it without full stamina it's going to strain his body) when fighting ssj1 he had the advantage until she got one kick in. Yes ssj2 kefla but this is x20 full powered Goku who should dominate.

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#17 Posted by Alsimmons77 (506 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by Alsimmons77 (506 posts) - - Show Bio

@gunchar16:

Yes ssj2 kefla but this is x20 full powered Goku who should dominate.

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Goku dominates shit, Piccolo even compared Kefla with first time UI Goku.

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#19 Posted by jashro44 (46786 posts) - - Show Bio

@omriamar: So its just the time cage which is banned? In that case I'll back the duo. Goku can fight Hit because he knows about Hits tricks and he experienced them in a tournament setting which restricted his killing techniques, and than died to him. So I don't think Kefla will counter Hits hax so easily.

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#20 Edited by Wrathofthebrad (179 posts) - - Show Bio

Kefla wins this, Hit without time stop isn't enough help for Goku.

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#21 Edited by BlackWizzard17 (285 posts) - - Show Bio

@alsimmons77: so we just going to take piccolo's word,the man who can't even sense God ki and who clearly saw ui Goku fight on par with Jiren even though ssbkkx didn't do shit is suppose to be reliable?

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#22 Posted by Itachus17 (1803 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@omriamar: So its just the time cage which is banned? In that case I'll back the duo. Goku can fight Hit because he knows about Hits tricks and he experienced them in a tournament setting which restricted his killing techniques, and than died to him. So I don't think Kefla will counter Hits hax so easily.

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#23 Posted by Itachus17 (1803 posts) - - Show Bio

@alsimmons77: so we just going to take piccolo's word,the man who can't even sense God ki and who clearly saw ui Goku fight on par with Jiren even though ssbkkx didn't do shit is suppose to be reliable?

Piccolo is still way more reliable than you, especially after this hilarious nonsense here:

Goku stomps BY himself. He has his full power where as he didn't when fighting ssj1 Kefla. Hit was outclassed before but adapted and found his opponents weakness so he is could take it as well although with difficulty.

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#24 Posted by slimj87d (14323 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackwizzard17:

With that logic, SSB Goku is as powerful as UI Goku, but we know from everyone's senses that UI Goku is the most powerful Goku has ever been.

I believe Vados was the one that said Kefla SS2 was actually more physically powerful than Goku and his punches couldn't actually put any lasting damage on her but he was a much better fighter and his reaction time was better due to cutting out his thought process and just running off instinct.

Sure Goku was really tired, I'm not denying that. But Kefla was able to take UI Goku's hits, it took a ring out for him to really beat her. But a fight to the death, UI Goku would probably have ran out of ki before he could kill her.

UI Goku will more than likely get stronger as he masters his form and abilities. But right now, Kefla is durable enough to take a bunch of hits from him with no real permanent damage.

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#25 Edited by BlackWizzard17 (285 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: is ultra instinct really that strong? I assume it was just his base form with the ability to react on pure instinct which is why his punches would be weaker. I wish they would describe it more other wise Beerus and whis with ui would be on a totally different plane of existence compared to goku.

@itachus17: prove to me what I wrote was nonsense. With time skip hit could win but I didn't see he couldn't do he gets stomped with or without help.

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#26 Edited by Itachus17 (1803 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackwizzard17:

prove to me what I wrote was nonsense.

How about you first prove any of your claims?

With time skip hit could win but I didn't see he couldn't do he gets stomped with or without help.

Uhm what?

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#28 Posted by Itachus17 (1803 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackwizzard17:

is ultra instinct really that strong? I assume it was just his base form with the ability to react on pure instinct which is why his punches would be weaker.

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#29 Posted by green_skaar (11185 posts) - - Show Bio
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@jashro44 said:

Has Goku used Kaio-ken X20? I thought he was using Kaio-ken X10? Anyways I back Kefla under these conditions. Hit would solo with his time skip though.

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#30 Edited by BlackWizzard17 (285 posts) - - Show Bio

@itachus17:

1) I didn't notice he was limited to his abilities by the op, so since he does not have time skip be gets stomped with Goku helping or without Goku helping.

2) Goku was beating the hell out of Caulifla at the beginning of TTOP. After getting energy from Frieza to move Caulifla started challenging and beating Goku to the point he had to ascend. He was tired and weak, he couldn't use his full powers which is why he got beat up by kefla. I'm not saying kefla is weak but a full power SSBKKX20 Goku is not going down.

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#31 Edited by Itachus17 (1803 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackwizzard17:

1) I didn't notice he was limited to his abilities by the op, so since he does not have time skip be gets stomped with Goku helping or without Goku helping.

Aha.

2) Goku was beating the hell out of califla at the beginning of TTOP.

And?

After getting energy from Frieza to move califla started challenging and beating Goku to the point he had to ascend.

Uhm?

He was tired and weak, he couldn't use his full powers which is why he got beat up by kefla. and obviously not the only reason

That was before SSJ2 Kefla, Goku not weak by any logical definition of that word and it was obviously not the only reason...

I'm not saying kefla is weak but a full power SSBKKX20 Goku is not going down.

SSBKK20 Goku is absolutely going down, SSJ2 Kefla almost tagged even UI Goku twice in the end and also reacted twice to him.

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#32 Posted by jashro44 (46786 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by Cerberus369616 (2054 posts) - - Show Bio

Since Hit has Time Skip I'll back Goku and Hit. Kefla is more powerful but Hit has taken blows from Jiren and tagged him. I don't see a world in which he cannot replicate the feat on Kefla. No Time Cage sucks but the reason Hit didn't hit Jiren with another move is because killing is banned in the tournament and it was the only way to be sure he "ended" the fight since he thought he was only gonna get the one chance against Jiren.

To me, Kefla , nor Caulifla nor Kale have shown the tactical mind to counter Time Skip reliably. Kefla might be able to deal with it using Raw Speed and Brute Force but not reliably. I think the argument could be made for Hit taking her with no tournament rules 1v1. I think SSBBKK Goku is comparable if not superior to SSJ1 Kefla but thoroughly outclassed by SSJ2 Kefla. But his mind for battle and being a big enough problem to be a threat for Hit to get 1 or 2 killing blows with ease make me think they take a real solid majority.

I see it going like this. Goku rushes in, starts getting stomped but puts up a fight similar to his fight against Jiren but not as one sided. Hit makes his first assassination attack from his alt dimension while kefla is distracted by Goku, she survives potenatially. Jiren Escapes and Goku goes back into here, she is more worried about Hit letting Goku get in a couple of Shots but ultimately she Finishes Goku off. At that moment just like When Goku got beat by Jiren, Hit makes another move but with a lethal strike on Kefla. Unlike Jiren who is being made out to be a perfect Warrior I think Kefla will get caught up in the moment of Beating Goku and won't be ready for Hit like Jiren was. I think she should go down here but for good Measure from this point I think it likely Hit will fight upfront like Normal only having take a couple of blows max from his first assassination attempt while Goku was up. If He can tank blows from Jiren, suppressed or not, he can take blows from Kefla as far as I'm concerned. Just like Jiren Hit may be outclassed for the majority of the fight but all he needs is one good hit to finish the fight at this point and if he can create that moment against a much superior opponent he can do it against Kefla. I'm not confident Kefla can even deal with Hit in a straight fight as well as Jiren did anyway, she wold probably get tagged more than once but the One should be all hit needs at this point.

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#34 Posted by jashro44 (46786 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: According to whis goku couldn't fully utilize ultra instincts when he attacked kefla because he would think before he attacked. Which is why his attacks were ineffective. Ultra instincts is stronger than blue but goku couldn't use it offensively which is why he needed a kamehameha to bfr.

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#35 Posted by slimj87d (14323 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: to clarify from my original statement and after rewatching the scene again it wasn't Vados but Piccolo who commented on Kefla surpassing UI Goku in power. I believe the artist of the Manga also wanted to show this by comparing their ki auras as well.

I personally believe UI Goku and SS2 Kefla ARE physically are around the same level. Neither are more powerful than each other by a "factor" but possibly just by a few percentages. But battle prowess, Goku exceeds her by a few factors. His reaction time, reflexes and skill all exceed her own.

That being said, one gauge where Kefla SS2 falls. Shes definitely above SSB20xKK Goku even if he was rested.

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#36 Posted by EmpressOfDread (1528 posts) - - Show Bio

hit without time stop ? if cage is not allowed too, going with kefla.

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#37 Posted by omriamar (3551 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by EmpressOfDread (1528 posts) - - Show Bio

@omriamar said:

@empressofdread: cage no skip yes

then I don't think Kefla can take out Time Skip hit and a rested SSB with Kaiokenx20

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#39 Posted by TheSaiyanMan (1731 posts) - - Show Bio

Kefla.

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#40 Posted by jashro44 (46786 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@jashro44: to clarify from my original statement and after rewatching the scene again it wasn't Vados but Piccolo who commented on Kefla surpassing UI Goku in power. I believe the artist of the Manga also wanted to show this by comparing their ki auras as well.

I'm not sure what statement your talking about. But it was stated Goku couldn't use ultra instincts for attacking. Also Kefla hasn't shown up in the manga?

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@slimj87d said:

I personally believe UI Goku and SS2 Kefla ARE physically are around the same level. Neither are more powerful than each other by a "factor" but possibly just by a few percentages. But battle prowess, Goku exceeds her by a few factors. His reaction time, reflexes and skill all exceed her own.

I agree Kefla is stronger than blue but I don't think she is on par with Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku. It was said in the episode when the Z-fighters got caught in the black hole that its harder for Goku to break his shell. He likely wasn't as strong as when he faced Jiren when he fought Kefla.

@slimj87d said:

That being said, one gauge where Kefla SS2 falls. Shes definitely above SSB20xKK Goku even if he was rested.

Yea. IIRC we saw her beat him already. I would say she doesn't have what it takes to deal with Hit though.

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#41 Posted by DrPepperMan (2130 posts) - - Show Bio

Duo win pretty easily, hit can solo IMHO.

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#42 Posted by Saiyan77 (2054 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku could solo and I really don't know why even a SSJB level fighter should beat a fused fighter

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#43 Edited by slimj87d (14323 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: There's a part where Piccolo says Kefla surpassed Goku UI in power. But he says she surpassed his previous UI usage. The second time Goku used it he was better at using it. But I like to mention that when Goku powers up to UI, Kefla turns SS2, and she tells him if he powers up then she'll power up even further but Goku says his power is enough. She later unleashes her full power when she does those lasers.

From watching the episode for the first time, I was under the impression that she was physically superior to him based on all the above. Super has been telling use that it's not all about powering up anymore, but unlocking your full potential with your battle prowess.

You can be right, UI Goku can be stronger than Kefla. But my point is neither are physically stronger than each other by "factors," maybe by percentages at best.

Kefla is above UI Goku when he used it the first time, that's for sure because it was stated. So we know where to put her in a tier system. Well above SSB20XKK. Was she stronger than himself the second time? Maybe not because piccolo also says she might draw out more of Goku power if they fight and Goku does end up beating her.

Personally, I don't believe UI Goku is physically moreo powerful than Kefla. He never bothers to power up any further, Kefla feels his energy and states she can power up even more than him and she does end up doing so later. I believe Goku strength in UI grows a lot physically, but I think speed which increases striking, and his battle prowess is what increases a lot more. I think that's the point of UI.

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#44 Posted by green_skaar (11185 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd favor either of the team over Kefla frankly.

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#45 Posted by jashro44 (46786 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d:

There's a part where Piccolo says Kefla surpassed Goku UI in power. But he says she surpassed his previous UI usage. The second time Goku used it he was better at using it.

Can you post the statement? Because I showed a statement from Whis that says Goku couldn't use the power for ultra instinct to attacks. Goku seemed to be much worse at using it the second time considering when he fought JIren his attacks were getting "sharper, faster and heavier".

But I like to mention that when Goku powers up to UI, Kefla turns SS2, and she tells him if he powers up then she'll power up even further but Goku says his power is enough. She later unleashes her full power when she does those lasers.

From watching the episode for the first time, I was under the impression that she was physically superior to him based on all the above. Super has been telling use that it's not all about powering up anymore, but unlocking your full potential with your battle prowess.

Well personally I assumed Jiren also has ultra instincts which is why he is so strong (except he mastered them). Ultra instincts does seem to raise Goku's power seeing as he couldn't hurt Jiren as a ssj but could with ultra instincts.

You can be right, UI Goku can be stronger than Kefla. But my point is neither are physically stronger than each other by "factors," maybe by percentages at best.

Well I guess but we don't really know how strong goku is with ultra instincts because when he fought Jiren he was actually getting stronger:

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Kefla is above UI Goku when he used it the first time, that's for sure because it was stated. Was she stronger than himself the second time? Maybe not because piccolo also says she might draw out more of Goku power if they fight and Goku does end up beating her.

Can you show me the statement that says she is above Goku when he used it the first time? Because that doesn't make sense to me.

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#46 Posted by slimj87d (14323 posts) - - Show Bio
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@jashro44: I'm on the road now so it'll be hard for me to respond properly. But some stuff I just took screenshots of.

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#47 Posted by jashro44 (46786 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: Eh, Piccolo could be talking about ssj blue kaio-ken. I guess it is also possible that Goku in ultra instincts the second time was stronger but he could not use that power properly due to lack of control.

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#48 Posted by katrurius17 (970 posts) - - Show Bio

@saiyan77 said:

Goku could solo and I really don't know why even a SSJB level fighter should beat a fused fighter

I'd favor either of the team over Kefla frankly.

Ah i see, the denial is still strong in some people.

On topic: Kefla beats up Goku without much trouble, but Hit can probably carry the team due to time skip.

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#49 Posted by slimj87d (14323 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I came to my conclusion based on the following. Whis talking about Kefla rivaling the spirit bomb and piccolos comment came right after that, in addition to Kefla saying she can power up to be stronger than Goku and Goku saying his current power up is all he needs to beat her.

Lastly, it's obvious Goku is only using a portion of UI. So I'm only arguing that Kefla is around the tier of a unmastered UI +/- 10-20%. When Goku masters UI, he'll probably be a fee factors above her in power.

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#50 Posted by thebuckaronatr (1244 posts) - - Show Bio

@saiyan77 said:

Goku could solo and I really don't know why even a SSJB level fighter should beat a fused fighter

@green_skaar said:

I'd favor either of the team over Kefla frankly.

Ah i see, the denial is still strong in some people.

On topic: Kefla beats up Goku without much trouble, but Hit can probably carry the team due to time skip.

I second that.