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#51 Edited by Omega_kai (3162 posts) - - Show Bio

@Aristeaus: What's wrong with it? Outside of Majin Vegeta being higher than SSJ2 Goku I'm ok with it.

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#52 Posted by Jon_Don (237 posts) - - Show Bio

5

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#53 Posted by Jon_Don (237 posts) - - Show Bio

4 can go either way tho

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#54 Posted by SkySanji (4149 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#55 Posted by Gaoron (7857 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at 4. Gohan slaughters the rest. He was only at half his power against SPC.

No Caption Provided

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#56 Posted by Karkus (632 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus said:
@man_of_miracles said:

@limitlesssigil: Not really. Gohan was horribly injured and still beat him with one arm.

You have to note that Vegeta distracted Cell, and this is what the Daizenshuu says about that Kamehameha.

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Don't forget how Gohan got so injured.

The Daizenshuu contradicts the manga, at most what Gohan got from Goku was a pep talk all the power that came from the Kamehameha was his.

Do you have scans in the Manga that directly contradict this statement?

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#58 Posted by Paytience (4519 posts) - - Show Bio

@omega_kai: It's almost like Vegeta has beaten Goku every time they fought or something...

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#59 Edited by Omega_kai (3162 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus said:
@omega_kai said:
@karkus said:
@man_of_miracles said:

@limitlesssigil: Not really. Gohan was horribly injured and still beat him with one arm.

You have to note that Vegeta distracted Cell, and this is what the Daizenshuu says about that Kamehameha.

No Caption Provided

Don't forget how Gohan got so injured.

The Daizenshuu contradicts the manga, at most what Gohan got from Goku was a pep talk all the power that came from the Kamehameha was his.

Do you have scans in the Manga that directly contradict this statement?

The manga.

@omega_kai: It's almost like Vegeta has beaten Goku every time they fought or something...

Lol he only arguably beat him in the Saiyan Saga, even then you could argue it was a stalemate.

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#60 Posted by Karkus (632 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus said:
@omega_kai said:
@karkus said:
@man_of_miracles said:

@limitlesssigil: Not really. Gohan was horribly injured and still beat him with one arm.

You have to note that Vegeta distracted Cell, and this is what the Daizenshuu says about that Kamehameha.

No Caption Provided

Don't forget how Gohan got so injured.

The Daizenshuu contradicts the manga, at most what Gohan got from Goku was a pep talk all the power that came from the Kamehameha was his.

Do you have scans in the Manga that directly contradict this statement?

The manga.

Yes, the Manga. I am asking for scans in the Manga that directly contradict this statement.

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#61 Posted by Omega_kai (3162 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus: @karkus: Scans for what? Goku was dead he wasn't helping with the Kamehameha period, the only thing helpful thing he was doing was telepathically talking to Gohan to boost his spirits.

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#62 Posted by AlexTheBoss (16337 posts) - - Show Bio

Could stop 4, it's hard to say if Vegeta was stronger than him before the Majin boost. Ssj2 Goku and ssj2 majin Vegeta were both confirmed stronger than Gohan when he fought Cell, so he stops at them.

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#63 Posted by Karkus (632 posts) - - Show Bio

@omega_kai:

Scans for what?

Scans showing or stating Goku wasn't giving Gohan a power boost.

Goku was dead he wasn't helping with the Kamehameha period

He was lending him power. This is stated in the Daizenshuu, and you have yet to disprove it.

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#64 Edited by Omega_kai (3162 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus: While the Daizenshuu has some weight, something in the official manga to corrobate with what's already been established would be ideal. All things considered, unless you can show me either a scan in the manga explicitly showing Goku giving Gohan energy or any other primary source-i.e., excerpt or interview from Toriyama saying that's what happened. Then all the that scan amounts to is nothing more than a contradiction towards the manga.

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#65 Posted by Karkus (632 posts) - - Show Bio

@omega_kai: But there is no contradiction shown in the Manga is the issue. If it was directly shown or stated then the statement would be invalid, but it is not directly shown or stated Gohan was getting no amp from Goku, so it's just an expansion, and not a contradiction.

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#66 Edited by Omega_kai (3162 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus: It's a contradiction towards the manga as it wasn't either shown, stated, or much less even subtly hinted at. Nor is there any sort of precedence in the manga to make that excerpt from the Daizenshuu even remotely true. Since nothing prior at least in the manga has ever shown someone from the otherworld transmitting/giving Ki to someone in the living, let alone, giving energy face to face. Outside of Toei material such as the DBZ movies or GT, in fact, this wasn't even written by Toriyama it was approved and supervised by him. For that reason alone coupled with the fact of how dubious this statement is, it should evidently be disregarded.

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#67 Edited by Karkus (632 posts) - - Show Bio

@omega_kai:

It's a contradiction towards the manga as it wasn't either shown, stated, or much less even subtly hinted at.

That's not a contradiction. A contradiction would be if Gohan said Goku wasn't lending him power, or Goku said something to that affect. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

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#68 Edited by Omega_kai (3162 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus: "A contradiction is a situation or ideas in opposition to one another." If the Daizenshuu states the Kamehameha was produced from Gohan and Goku power, yet the manga doesn't show this then it's surely a contradiction. Likewise, if I state I'm not procrastinator though fail to do my homework on my time, then I'm contradicting myself. An "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" would be saying Big Foot doesn't exist because you haven't seen picture of him yet.

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#69 Posted by Karkus (632 posts) - - Show Bio

@omega_kai:

"A contradiction is a situation or ideas in opposition to one another."

Yes, and there isn't anything in the Manga that directly opposes this.

yet the manga doesn't show this then it's surely a contradiction.

No, the Manga not showing it isn't a contradiction, a contradiction would be if the manga said it didn't happen.

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#70 Edited by Omega_kai (3162 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus said:

@omega_kai:

"A contradiction is a situation or ideas in opposition to one another."

Yes, and there isn't anything in the Manga that directly opposes this.

yet the manga doesn't show this then it's surely a contradiction.

No, the Manga not showing it isn't a contradiction, a contradiction would be if the manga said it didn't happen.

The Daizenshuu is stating one thing but it's not happening in the other, that is a contradiction.

Let's look at the facts:

  1. The Daizenshuu is a secondary source published by Shueisha with minimal input from Toriyama.
  2. Anything that's stated in the Daizenshuu but contradicts the manga is automatically regarded as non canon as the Manga is official story of DB and therefore takes precedence.
  3. The Daizenshuu has several controversial contradictions.
  4. The Daizenshuu is full of both canon as well as non canon material.
  5. Toei are known for being inconsistent writers

The Daizenshuu's claim is questionable at best and blatany wrong at worst, coupled with the fact of a crucial lack of evidence. Moreover, claims which cannot be tested are just bad claims and assertions immune to disprove are virtually worthless.

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#71 Posted by Karkus (632 posts) - - Show Bio

@omega_kai:

The Daizenshuu is stating one thing but it's not happening in the other, that is a contradiction.

You have yet to show the scans that prove it was not happening in the Manga. Show these scans, and I will concede.

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#72 Edited by Omega_kai (3162 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus: Do you have scans to corrobate the validity of the Daizenshuu's statement? I don't have to provide anything, the Daizenshuu is a secondary source written by a third party with minimal input from the official creator. As I stated before "While the Daizenshuu has some weight, something in the official manga to corrobate with what's already been established would be ideal" in sum the closer you can get to an original account or event the more accurate the information will be. Explicably, words from Toriyama or an official scan from the manga to back what you and Daizenshuu are backing would give the flimsy statment validity.

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#73 Posted by Havenless (2892 posts) - - Show Bio
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#74 Edited by Karkus (632 posts) - - Show Bio

@omega_kai: Answering my question with a question is counter productive. You made the claim the energy transfer never happens in the Manga, and that is burden of proof that lies on you.

As I stated before "While the Daizenshuu has some weight, something in the official manga to corrobate with what's already been established would be ideal"

I agree.

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#75 Posted by cpt_nice (9864 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't see him passing Goku

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#76 Edited by Omega_kai (3162 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus said:

@omega_kai: Answering my question with a question is counter productive. You made the claim the energy transfer never happens in the Manga, and that is burden of proof that lies on you.

As I stated before "While the Daizenshuu has some weight, something in the official manga to corrobate with what's already been established would be ideal"

I agree.

@karkus: "You made the claim the energy transfer never happens in the Manga" I was actually wrong for that statement as it happened on one occasion in the Namek Saga with Gohan, Krillin, and Piccolo. However, this required them to be immediate vincity within each other and actually have hand-to-hand touch. Unlike Goku who is dead and in the Otherworld who has no way of sending energy to Gohan. So, your situation still remains the same since there is absolutely no precedent or prior showing for anyone in the otherworld transmitting/giving Ki to someone in the living, much less across large distances or dimensional ones. Furthermore, the intent of Goku's telepathic talk to Gohan was clear, Gohan just broke his arm, saw Trunks die, and most importantly just lost his father due to his unwillingness to finish off Cell. By and large, all those events can be attributed to Gohan's unwillingnes and selfishness not to finish off cell, not to mention, the ressurection of Cell in a even more powerful form than before. As one would expect, his mind obviously wasn't in the best of place at the time; as a result, what Goku provided was spiritual and mental support. Hence by his continuous words of encouragement and guidance, I don't know how anyone could say Goku was actually physically helping with the Kamehameha. Even in the anime his form is more ghostly than physical.

Answering my question with a question is counter productive.

And using dubious statements from an already contradictory source is counterintuitive to what you're trying to prove, I'm getting bored of this debate either provide evidence to match what the Daizenshuu is stating or just stop replying.

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#77 Edited by Karkus (632 posts) - - Show Bio

@omega_kai:

If you are not going to answer my question, then this is just going in circles, and would be best to agree to disagree.

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#78 Edited by Omega_kai (3162 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus said:

@omega_kai:

The Daizenshuu is stating one thing but it's not happening in the other, that is a contradiction.

You have yet to show the scans that prove it was not happening in the Manga. Show these scans, and I will concede.

Alright than, I can't show you anymore than this.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

These first two scans show Goku comforting Gohan and telling him not to pin all the guilt on himself.

Goku: "In the end I want you to show the power both of us made! Its okay you can win just believe in your own power!

Just from the dialogue alone it's clear Goku is pinning all of his hopes on Gohan's power.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

In these last three scans nearing the end of the beam struggle Goku nor Gohan makes no mention of him aiding in the beam struggle. In one of the scans he says to Gohan hes holding back out of fear of destroying the earth and to just forget about that since it can be fixed with the Dragon Balls. Again, as I said before he was only there to free him from his mental chains as that's only thing he could do. Maybe in some unique way, you could say his motivation was his power.

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#79 Posted by Karkus (632 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus said:

@omega_kai:

The Daizenshuu is stating one thing but it's not happening in the other, that is a contradiction.

You have yet to show the scans that prove it was not happening in the Manga. Show these scans, and I will concede.

Alright than, I can't show you anymore than this.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Thanks for at least showing some scans, even if they don't definitively disprove the Daizenshuu statement.

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#80 Posted by Omega_kai (3162 posts) - - Show Bio
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#81 Posted by Karkus (632 posts) - - Show Bio

@omega_kai: Because it doesn't have a statement explicitly saying that it is untrue. That is the only thing that can definitively disprove it and make it false beyond a shadow of a doubt.

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#82 Posted by Omega_kai (3162 posts) - - Show Bio

At most you could argue Goku was there to revitalize Gohan's spirit, plus he wasn't really actually there. Goku being drawn there was just a visualization, whatever then, we can agree to disagree.

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#83 Posted by Karkus (632 posts) - - Show Bio

At most, you can say that Goku lended Gohan his power from the other world, as evidenced by the Daizenshuu. Whatever then, we can agree to disagree.

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#84 Posted by Voice_of_Death (639 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at 4.

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#85 Edited by Omega_kai (3162 posts) - - Show Bio

Main reason why I don't get in debates on CV. I understand having a firm believe in something but whats the point in debating about it. If you're not flexible enough to change it as long as its sound and logical.

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#86 Posted by Slade-Prime (1154 posts) - - Show Bio

stops at 5, Buu saga SS2 Goku was the only one stated to surpass ss2 teen gohan, then majin vegeta shortly after.

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#87 Edited by WhatamIseeing (1546 posts) - - Show Bio

He makes it to vegeta but can lose to Dabura if he tries to tank the spit

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#88 Posted by Marshall_Long (5648 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at 4

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#89 Posted by SkySanji (4149 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#90 Posted by cromulor (1968 posts) - - Show Bio

Much of the evidence within DBZ has led me to believe you wouldn’t take that much damage being hit by a blast from somebody you’re significantly stronger than. A single blast from Super Perfect Cell meant for Vegeta was enough to basically destroy Gohan’s arm. That just doesn’t happen in this series to characters that are stronger than another character, especially if it’s a nameless blast being that they’re tanking. So yeah, press x to doubt on the idea of Gohan being above Super Perfect Cell by any wide margin. I would say he could stop there if Cell plays tactically enough (and he can), if not he hard stops at 4 and would stop even harder at 5 and 6.

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#91 Posted by Jack_Hart (797 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at round 4.

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#93 Posted by i_like_swords (26160 posts) - - Show Bio

Gohan has his Rage Boost so he is how he was when he beam struggled with Cell and he's fresh here

He gets a Senzu bean after every round

Lol clears

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#94 Posted by The_Hajduk (5699 posts) - - Show Bio

Would SSJ2 Gohan have defeated Cell if he didn't have outside help?

Would Cell have even pushed Gohan that far if Gohan wasn't holding back and injured?

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#95 Posted by LimitlessSigil (2824 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_hajduk: He wasn't holding back against Super Perfect Cell, and who was it that injured Gohan again?

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#96 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3388 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see how anyone can argue that SPC has even a remote chance against a fresh rage boost SSJ2 Gohan.

Honestly though he should stop at 4. Vegeta was disgusted that teen SSJ2 Gohan couldn't beat Dabura and said any competent fighter would beat him. And Dabura was compared to Cell (though maybe not SPC). Regardless there is no way he can clear, Majin Vegeta would destroy him.

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#97 Posted by SkySanji (4149 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles: Yh it's weird no one realizes,Gohan had the ssj2 multiplier on top of his rage Boost so it wasn't an average 2x multiplier.

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#98 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3388 posts) - - Show Bio

@skysanji: I don't think anyone is really paying attention to the OP which is pretty standard. A healthy rage boost SSJ2 Gohan is far beyond anything SPC ever faced.

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#99 Posted by Amendment50 (15112 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see how he could possibly lose to Cell. He probably loses at 5 or 6.

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#100 Posted by Myleftbuttcheeksolos (408 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at one