SSJ Goku (Tournament of Power) Runs the Z Gauntlet

  • 64 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for cocacolaman
cocacolaman

27811

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#1 cocacolaman  Moderator
No Caption Provided

Son Goku

  • Goku is Tournament of Power, only has Super Saiyan
  • Everyone in the gauntlet is at their strongest during Z
  • Win by any means
  • Basic knowledge
  • In character
  • Start 10 meters apart
  • Fight on an indestructible planet

He runs twice. The first time, he gets no rest. The second time, he gets full rest between rounds. If he clears too easily, imagine he fights the gauntlet as a team.

  1. Frieza
  2. Cell
  3. Gotenks
  4. Gohan
  5. Vegeta
  6. Buu
  7. Vegito
Avatar image for vortextitan
VortexTitan

494

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Gets one shotted at 3

Avatar image for alextheboss
alextheboss

30679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#4  Edited By alextheboss
Avatar image for alextheboss
alextheboss

30679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Clears and beats them all at once. This Goku is stronger than BoG SSG Goku who is stronger than ssj Vegito.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

1556

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#6  Edited By SeventhMoon

@alextheboss: The Gotenks that never trains in a series where no training for long periods makes you massively weaker.

DBS Goku struggled against Basil, who is below a Good Buu that never trains and only sleeps, meaning ToP Base Goku is below Good Buu.

Goku in SSJ2 also struggled against Pre-Vegeta Training SSJ2 Trunks. He's clearly not god level after BoG in base. He lost that.

@vortextitan said:

Gets one shotted at 3

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

41349

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#7  Edited By Eredin12  Online

Clears. Goku absorbed SSG power and was doing better against Beerus as SSJ than he was as SSG , with the narrator himself also confirming their blows were universal in said brawl:

No Caption Provided

I think have a higher opinion of Z-era characters than most people but I do not think they are that strong.

Avatar image for nassergrant19
nassergrant19

30961

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 5

#8  Edited By nassergrant19

@eredin12 said:

Clears. Goku absorbed SSG power and was doing better against Beerus as SSJ than he was as SSG , with the narrator himself also confirming their blows were universal in said brawl:

No Caption Provided

I think have a higher opinion of Z-era characters than most people but I do not think they are that strong.

Avatar image for masterbuster666
MasterBuster666

8129

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#9  Edited By MasterBuster666

@alextheboss: The Gotenks that never trains in a series where no training for long periods makes you massively weaker.

DBS Goku struggled against Basil, who is below a Good Buu that never trains and only sleeps, meaning ToP Base Goku is below Kid Buu.

Goku in SSJ2 also struggled against Pre-Vegeta Training SSJ2 Trunks. He's clearly not god level after BoG in base. He lost that.

@vortextitan said:

Gets one shotted at 3

Avatar image for alextheboss
alextheboss

30679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@seventhmoon:

The Gotenks that never trains in a series where no training for long periods makes you massively weaker.

They could be weaker, but probably not much weaker.

DBS Goku struggled against Basil, who is below a Good Buu that never trains and only sleeps, meaning ToP Base Goku is below Good Buu.

Base Goku was fighting all 3 trio de danger at the same time.

Goku in SSJ2 also struggled against Pre-Vegeta Training SSJ2 Trunks. He's clearly not god level after BoG in base. He lost that.

Trunks was fighting Black for a while. We don't know how strong he got. I agree it's dumb, but it could explain it.

Piccolo should have at least been close to Cell jr./cell games ssj level yet he got stomped by Tagoma. Ssj Gohan stomped Tagoma. First form Frieza stomped ssj Gohan. Base Vegeta one shot Tagoma. Base Goku and Vegeta were as strong as final form Frieza. There base forms were clearly massively stronger than what they were pre BoG. At bare minimum they have to be like super perfect Cell to ssj2 level. Add in Goku's ssj2 multiplier and he is WAY above Gotenks.

Base Goku also gave post training Buu trouble right before the ToP...

And base Goku fought the Broly that was beating up SSG Vegeta and didn't get one shot...

Saying ssj3 Gotenks one shots ssj2 Goku is inconceivably ignorant.

Avatar image for alextheboss
alextheboss

30679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for masterbuster666
MasterBuster666

8129

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@masterbuster666: explained above why that's wrong

Hmmm, there's holes in these arguments:

They could be weaker, but probably not much weaker.

Goten & Trunks individually were so weak that they struggled defeating a Giant Snake in EP 1 at the time... As well as not being able to transform to SSJ for some reason (Barring their fusion ofc).

Loading Video...

Base Goku was fighting all 3 trio de danger at the same time.

And together they gave him a hard time doing so that if vegeta didnt show up, he'd lose.

Loading Video...

Each of the dangers individually = ToP Base Goku & Vegeta in Full Power.

All of them fighting together witu Universe 9 are >>>>> them in base.

Then when the Trio did their combined Tribeam attack, they're above even their SSJ forms powerwise, with only their SSB Final Kamehameha obliterating them.

Avatar image for ancient_0f_days
Ancient_0f_Days

21626

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Goku should clear easily up to Vegito... Absorbing God Ki into his base made him massively stronger than SSJ3 while in base from Battle of Gods onward. He was massively stronger in the ToP to the point where Buu Saga seems like childs play, Full Power Super Saiyan gives him a 100x amp compared to regular SSJ and he can stack Kaioken to make this much simpler, should be easier to do than in SSJ Blue.

Avatar image for ancient_0f_days
Ancient_0f_Days

21626

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#14  Edited By Ancient_0f_Days

@masterbuster666: Explain this scene from Battle of Gods???

No Caption Provided

Because right here it looks like he's blatantly stating that even Vegito would get stomped by nerfed Beerus... Which means everyone in Z would get stomped by nerfed Beerus.... Which means Battle of Gods SSG Goku is above everything in Z outright... Which also means that since Goku absorbed SSG into his base, base Goku is stronger than anyone in Z, including Vegito, let alone Gotenks.... That's not even counting the fact that Goku is in SSJ for this thread, has access to Kaioken, and is at ToP levels of power....

Avatar image for masterbuster666
MasterBuster666

8129

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@masterbuster666: Explain this scene from Battle of Gods???

No Caption Provided

Because right here it looks like he's blatantly stating that even Vegito would get stomped by nerfed Beerus... Which means everyone in Z would get stomped by nerfed Beerus.... Which means Battle of Gods SSG Goku is above everything in Z outright... Which also means that since Goku absorbed SSG into his base, base Goku is stronger than anyone in Z, including Vegito, let alone Gotenks.... That's not even counting the fact that Goku is in SSJ for this thread, has access to Kaioken, and is at ToP levels of power....

This was from a Goku who can't sense Beerus' power, lol.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

1556

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@alextheboss: They could be weaker, but probably not much weaker.

The fact they're below a sub-Good Buu Base Goku and Vegeta is evident that they are much weaker.

The fact Gohan in the Buu Saga got much weaker, despite training again a little bit for the tournament.

The fact this Gotenks is below a Pre-Vegeta Training Trunks.

Base Goku was fighting all 3 trio de danger at the same time.

Because he got a bit stronger compared to the first time he fought Basil alone. That's it. The fact Goku struggled against a sub-Good Buu opponent in the ToP Saga means he never kept his Base = God amp.

And fighting 3 sub-Good Buu opponents at the same time, that may have gotten just a bit stronger via training unquantifiably, doesn't change anything.

Trunks was fighting Black for a while. We don't know how strong he got. I agree it's dumb, but it could explain it.

After training with Vegeta.

Piccolo should have at least been close to Cell jr./cell games ssj level yet he got stomped by Tagoma.

That's baseless.

First form Frieza stomped ssj Gohan

He stomped a non-Mystic Gohan that hasn't trained and is thus probably even below his Buu Saga self.

Base Goku also gave post training Buu trouble right before the ToP...

A Buu that clearly didn't get hardly any better, as he reverting to his fat form after a single nap.

And base Goku fought the Broly that was beating up SSG Vegeta and didn't get one shot...

So by your logic, Base Goku = > God Vegeta. Ok.

The answer is PIS. Blue Vegeta would've been irrelevant with Blue Goku fighting Broly with that logic.

Saying ssj3 Gotenks one shots ssj2 Goku is inconceivably ignorant.

OP says SSJ1. He just accidentally used a SSJ2 pic.

Avatar image for ancient_0f_days
Ancient_0f_Days

21626

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

This was from a Goku who can't sense Beerus' power, lol.

Your point?

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

1556

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#18  Edited By SeventhMoon
@ancient_0f_days said:
@masterbuster666 said:

This was from a Goku who can't sense Beerus' power, lol.

Your point?

His point is that Goku's claim is irrelevant, as he can't even properly gauge Beerus's power to make such an assessment. And Beerus didn't do anything to Goku that Vegito couldn't.

Also the fact that a Base Potara fusion without rival boost (Kefla), stomped God Goku.

This is not Toeiverse. Characters do not gain obscene base power boosts.

Avatar image for jermainekoloch
JermaineKoloch

701

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#19  Edited By JermaineKoloch

@masterbuster666: He could sense Buus ki but still said Vegito wouldn't be enough knowing he was stronger than all forms of Buu. There's some evidence he retained Vegitos memories too but for the sake of the argument we'll go with he can't

You think Buuhan would scale to ssjgod Goku ? He was #2 in DBZ. Genuine question

Avatar image for masterbuster666
MasterBuster666

8129

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@jermainekoloch: Question, what does buu have to do with Goku being unable to sense Beerus again? Is it God Ki?

Avatar image for jermainekoloch
JermaineKoloch

701

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#21  Edited By JermaineKoloch

@masterbuster666: my bad i thought you said he couldn't sense Vegitos power. He could still sense his own as ssjgod and said something along the lines of this power being beyond his comprehension or something like that. There's some good evidence he scales above Vegito, but I really don't feel like debating it

Avatar image for alextheboss
alextheboss

30679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@seventhmoon:

The fact they're below a sub-Good Buu Base Goku and Vegeta is evident that they are much weaker.

Base Goku being sub good Buu is still questionable. In Super teaming up actually matters, especially in the ToP where characters have to hold back. Basil was kicking around Buu, but due to Buu's body he was not damaged. Basil was no match for Goku 1v1.

The fact Gohan in the Buu Saga got much weaker, despite training again a little bit for the tournament.

Gohan is an adult with an office job while the kids are still growing and like to mess around and fight with each other, it's not the perfect example.

The fact this Gotenks is below a Pre-Vegeta Training Trunks.

Trunks upscales unfortunately.

Because he got a bit stronger compared to the first time he fought Basil alone. That's it. The fact Goku struggled against a sub-Good Buu opponent in the ToP Saga means he never kept his Base = God amp.

I would like for that to be true, but the series says the opposite. To be clear, I don't think Goku's base was ever SSG level like some people, but his ssj definitely was.

If we want to use downplay math, lying Beerus said he used 10% on rage amped ssj2 Vegeta and lying Beerus used fake 100% on SSG Goku. So if we assume he lied consistently SSG is at least 10x ssj3. Ssj3 is 8x ssj. So Goku got at least 80x stronger after the SSG ritual. We know pre SSG ritual his base was below Frieza, so his base after than SSG ritual would be less than 80x Frieza. Frieza's power level is 120 mil. 80x120 mil is 9.6 billion. By my own personal numbers this does indeed put base Goku below Buu, but at least around or above Cell. This is pretty consistent feat wise tbh. But going ssj puts him at 480 billion, well beyond any version of Buu imo.

And fighting 3 sub-Good Buu opponents at the same time, that may have gotten just a bit stronger via training unquantifiably, doesn't change anything.

Each one of the trio could slightly challenge Buu. Base Goku is very consistently at least CLOSE to good Buu, even if he is weaker by a small amount. Ssj makes his a washout in Goku's favor.

After training with Vegeta.

Trunks was fighting Black for years before going to the past and training with Vegeta iirc.

That's baseless.

After Piccolo came out of the ROSAT Trunks was impressed by his power. This Trunks could easily beat semi perfect Cell, so you would think Piccolo would at least have to be close to that range. He's at bare minimum a good deal stronger than 17 and 18 were. Tagoma stomping him AT BARE MINIMUM puts him at full power imperfect Cell level. Ssj Gohan stomping him puts him at least at semi perfect Cell level. First form Frieza stomping him at least puts him at super Vegeta level. Frieza's final form being massive multiplier at least puts him around perfect Cell to Buu level. This lines up perfectly where I have base Goku.

He stomped a non-Mystic Gohan that hasn't trained and is thus probably even below his Buu Saga self.

He probably was below his Buu saga self, but as shown above, first form stomping someone who stomped someone who stomped someone who could easily beat 17 makes base Goku very powerful in terms of Cell saga power levels.

A Buu that clearly didn't get hardly any better, as he reverting to his fat form after a single nap.

Yes, but it was a close fight... I don't think ssj3 Gotenks even stomps fat Buu in his prime. It's never stated Fat Buu and Super Buu have different power levels. In fact they are implied to be exactly the same, with Super Buu just having a body more suited to fighting. Base Goku can be weaker but relative to Fat Buu, but this means his ssj form absolutely stomps ssj3 Gotenks even in his prime.

So by your logic, Base Goku = > God Vegeta. Ok.

No! My point was someone above god Vegeta can't one shot base Goku, so ssj3 Gotenks has no chance.

The answer is PIS. Blue Vegeta would've been irrelevant with Blue Goku fighting Broly with that logic.

It may have been PIS, but even PIS isn't saving Gotenks against that Broly.

OP says SSJ1. He just accidentally used a SSJ2 pic.

I see, but ssj Goku still stomps. Your argument only holds merit if you are one of those people who believe base Gotenks was actually above fat Buu and ssj3 Gotenks is 400x fat Buu. Let me tell you those people are wrong, ssj3 Gotenks was only ever around fat Buu level, and Buu saga ssj3 Goku beats ssj3 Gotenks.

Avatar image for alextheboss
alextheboss

30679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@masterbuster666:

Goten & Trunks individually were so weak that they struggled defeating a Giant Snake in EP 1 at the time... As well as not being able to transform to SSJ for some reason (Barring their fusion ofc).

It was implied their base could one shot the snake with a kamehameha. Dragon ball characters consistently have fodder physicals which could explain them not winning with punches.

And together they gave him a hard time doing so that if vegeta didnt show up, he'd lose.

Yeah, 3 near Buu level opponents gave Goku trouble. That isn't a bad anti feat. ssj makes him 50x stronger, so he destroys ssj3 Gotenks who is only around Buu level.

Each of the dangers individually = ToP Base Goku & Vegeta in Full Power.

The video you posted clearly shows them below Goku and Vegeta individually...

All of them fighting together witu Universe 9 are >>>>> them in base.

Their entire universe fighting together were only a bit above their base as Vegeta was literally winning before he went ssj and seemed more annoyed than anything.

Then when the Trio did their combined Tribeam attack, they're above even their SSJ forms powerwise, with only their SSB Final Kamehameha obliterating them.

Goku and Vegeta going blue doesn't mean their tribeam attack was above their ssj forms. They instantly blew them away with blue, they might have just struggled more with ssj.

Avatar image for edgelord91
Edgelord91

11312

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Clears with ease

Avatar image for ancient_0f_days
Ancient_0f_Days

21626

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#25  Edited By Ancient_0f_Days
@seventhmoon said:

His point is that Goku's claim is irrelevant, as he can't even properly gauge Beerus's power to make such an assessment. And Beerus didn't do anything to Goku that Vegito couldn't.

Also the fact that a Base Potara fusion without rival boost (Kefla), stomped God Goku.

This is not Toeiverse. Characters do not gain obscene base power boosts.

They obviously do, since Goku went from fighting Beerus in SSG to fighting him in SSJ and doing just as well

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Even going so far as to destroy Beerus's ball of destruction, a feat only remotely possible in SSG, while in base form...

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

So was that just a mistake on your part or did you deliberately choose to omit facts from your logic?

Avatar image for ancient_0f_days
Ancient_0f_Days

21626

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Gotta stop you there..... Fat Buu is nerfed by default compared to all other Buu's

No Caption Provided

Shin is around peak Cell Saga SSJ Goku level but was considered the absolute weakest Supreme Kai right... So when tired SSJ3 Level Kid Buu absorbed South Supreme Kai (Aka the strongest) and became Buff, he was still too evil to be nerfed and uncontrollable for Bibidi and able to one shot 2 other Supreme Kais who were probably somewhere close to SSJ2 in strength. Then Buff Buu absorbs Dai (Fat) Kaioshin and gets nerfed to somewhere significantly stronger than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta but significantly weaker than a fresh SSJ3 Goku due to being significantly less evil. He's basically a Metamoran Fusion Dance gone wrong (like Fat Gotenks).

Pure Evil (Grey/Skinny) Buu should be just as strong as Fat Buu who's power doesn't deplete from making clones but this clone didn't get all the shared power of the absorbed Kai's due to being a manifestation of raw negative emotion who was rejected by his main body, this means the doppelganger was ejected without South Supreme Kai's buffs but isn't nerfed by Dai Kaioshin's purity which makes him just a little bit stronger than Good Buu but not his original Kid Buu Level. Another Fusion Dance gone wrong (like Skinny Gotenks).

When the Skinny Buu absorbed the Fat Buu (the main body with all the extra absorbed power including South Supreme Kai's and Dabura's), he took over as main persona and took full possession of the main body including all the power he had absorbed up till that point which is represented by the emaciated colorless Buu gaining a healthier looking body and full color due to repressing the Dai Kaioshin's purity by turning Fat Buu into an internal battery. Essentially becoming what he would have been had he not absorbed the Fat Supreme Kai and been nerfed to help in the first place, a perfect fusion of his original SSJ3 level pure evil power stacked with the full power of the Strongest Supreme Kai. This is his version of a flawless Fusion Dance (like Gotenks).

This alone makes Super Buu stronger than the Kid Buu who was beating the absolute breaks off of Fat Buu, and SSJ3 Gotenks was able to beat up on Super Buu. Not to mention the fact that Kid Buu was beating the breaks off of SSJ2 Vegeta who should scale to Majin Vegeta who got the breaks beat off of him by Fat Buu, who in turn got the breaks beat off of him by Kid Buu who was strong enough to match a tired SSJ3 Goku who beat the breaks off of Fat Buu. So Kid Buu is strong even without fused power but the thing that made Kid Buu weak enough to be taken on by SSJ3 Goku isn't just the fact that he wasn't fused with Gotenks, Piccolo and Gohan. He wasn't fused with anyone he ever absorbed anymore, including all the power he ever got from South Supreme Kai, Dabura and the people he ate because its all inside Fat Buu...

Mid SSJ3 level Kid Buu is Base Buu, Sub SSJ3 level Fat Buu is nerfed Buu, above SSJ3 level Super Buu is, well...just Super Buu who due to his personality, doesn't intend to one shot his opponents all the time like Kid Buu which is another reason he's weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks. The difference between SSJ3 Goku and Gotenks is the fact that Goku takes fights seriously. If SSJ3 Gotenks took it seriously, it would be over before Gohan got there.

Avatar image for vortextitan
VortexTitan

494

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#27  Edited By VortexTitan

@alextheboss: Filler scene. Also Goku needed SSJ again the Trio Brothers and Basil lost to Good Buu even with drug pill. So ToP SSJ Goku~Good Buu>Basil and base Goku couldn't even one shot the Buu Saga fodders. Further base Goku lost to fit Buu sparring match another evidence he is below Buu Saga SSJ3 tier and all these are after the filler scene, clearly contradicting the earlier information.

"Dragon ball characters consistently have fodder physicals which could explain them not winning with punches". What's your evidence for that claim and how do you than explain DB characters overpowering Ki blast with their strength?

Avatar image for vortextitan
VortexTitan

494

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@alextheboss: SSJ form being SSG was never the case. It was RoF using Saiyan Beyond God state in base form without god ki and Goku using said base SSG power with SSJ to create SSB. So it was base=SSG that got retconned. So nope neither base or SSJ is god tier. He needs SSG now as it returned to be at that level again so. Top SSG Goku>>>>>BoG SSG>>>>>>>>>ToP SSJ1-3 Goku

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

41349

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#29  Edited By Eredin12  Online

@alextheboss:

Dragon ball characters consistently have fodder physicals which could explain them not winning with punches.

Yea no, this type of stuff belongs back in 2011. Dragon Ball characters, in manga continuity especially, consistently lack lifting strength, not physicals generally, their striking/durability is almost always great, and it is hard to find any low showings there at all( and I do not think there is a reasonable reason to think Dr. Gero, the genius who made something as durable as Androids, used a normal metal door to protect his ultra secret lab). The amount of good durability/striking feats they have in any case vastly outweighs any low showings they have there. And those too are physicals, and indeed the most important ones. DB characters only consistently lack lifting strength, and any low showings you might post will almost exclusively include just lifting strength.

Trunks/Goten instance could simply be explained as them holding back and not wanting to endanger people nearby.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

1556

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@ancient_0f_days: I've debunked this shit thousands of times.

Goku's base amp he lost immediately, as he struggles with Pre-Vegeta Training SSJ2 Trunks and struggles with Basil, who got stomped by a Good Buu that never trains and only sleeps, among other things.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

1556

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#31  Edited By SeventhMoon

@alextheboss: Base Goku being sub good Buu is still questionable. In Super teaming up actually matters, especially in the ToP where characters have to hold back.

You can still stomp people. You just can't kill them. Teaming up is only relevant if everyone has somewhat relative power levels.

Basil was kicking around Buu, but due to Buu's body he was not damaged. Basil was no match for Goku 1v1.

If Basil was making Base Goku struggle and Base Goku = God Goku now, Buu would've been no threat to him.

Gohan is an adult with an office job while the kids are still growing and like to mess around and fight with each other, it's not the perfect example.

Play fight each other isn't actual fighting. These kids struggled with an Earth snake in episode 1 DBS. They're weak as hell.

Trunks upscales unfortunately.

No he doesn't. That's not an argument.

I would like for that to be true, but the series says the opposite. To be clear, I don't think Goku's base was ever SSG level like some people, but his ssj definitely was.

Honestly, I'm actually kinda behind this interpretation too. His base in BoG = a portion of his god power and MSSJ = all of it. And for some reason, he couldn't transform further, otherwise he would've to fight Beerus.

Problem is that he clearly lost this regardless.

Yeah, 3 near Buu level opponents gave Goku trouble. That isn't a bad anti feat. ssj makes him 50x stronger, so he destroys ssj3 Gotenks who is only around Buu level.

So do you think God just isn't a big increase if you think Base Goku is being around Good Buu level isn't a big deal?

My point was someone above god Vegeta can't one shot base Goku, so ssj3 Gotenks has no chance.

Durability is relative to offensive power in DB. That means Base Goku is decently relative to God Vegeta by that logic.

It may have been PIS, but even PIS isn't saving Gotenks against that Broly.

PIS had Gotenks fighting Cell Max. You underestimate the mindless writing of DBS.

Your argument only holds merit if you are one of those people who believe base Gotenks was actually above fat Buu and ssj3 Gotenks is 400x fat Buu. Let me tell you those people are wrong, ssj3 Gotenks was only ever around fat Buu level, and Buu saga ssj3 Goku beats ssj3 Gotenks.

Sorry, I hate Gotenks, but he's above Goku in the manga. Only in Toeiverse does Buu Saga Goku beat Gotenks and shits on him after the Vegito defusion power-up.

These DBS conversations get really boring when repeating them with people in several threads (not you specifically), so this may be my last reply.

Avatar image for ancient_0f_days
Ancient_0f_Days

21626

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@ancient_0f_days: I've debunked this shit thousands of times.

Goku's base amp he lost immediately, as he struggles with Pre-Vegeta Training SSJ2 Trunks and struggles with Basil, who got stomped by a Good Buu that never trains and only sleeps, among other things.

I highly doubt that, the information is right in front of you and I already posted the evidence that proves my point about his base being comparable to SSG, let alone SSJ... You can ignore it all you want but it's still facts.

Also, considering Frieza who got shat on by Trunks can workout for a few months and be SSJ Blue level, 17 can screw around on an island for over a decade and be Blue level, and Vegeta can go from Buu Saga SSJ2 to significantly above SSJ3 Goku levels from a rage amp after his wife gets slapped....I see no reason to assume Trunks didn't get any stronger than when he fought Dabura, especially after having fought Goku Black for a few years. People jump in power all the time.... You can just say you forgot, makes you look less wrong.

Wasn't Goku fighting all 3 brothers at the same time? And I'm pretty sure I already established that Buu's power is derivative of his emotional state, he may be Good Buu now, but he still benefits directly from rage amps since his full power is unlocked by negative emotion. Dai (Fat) Supreme Kai suppresses his negative emotions with his positive influence, reducing his power significantly. Buu got angry against Basil and his power spiked... The only times this didn't work was against Goku, his more evil self and Beerus.

Avatar image for alextheboss
alextheboss

30679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@ancient_0f_days: no no no no. ALL versions of Buu with kais in them are weakened. After fat buu was ripped out of super buu he became STRONGER.

No Caption Provided

You wrote a bunch of other stuff but if it is based off only Fat Buu is weakened it's all wrong. If any of what you said is still relevant, repost it.

Avatar image for alextheboss
alextheboss

30679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#34  Edited By alextheboss

@eredin12:

Yea no, this type of stuff belongs back in 2011. Dragon Ball characters, in manga continuity especially, consistently lack lifting strength, not physicals generally, their striking/durability is almost always great, and it is hard to find any low showings there at all( and I do not think there is a reasonable reason to think Dr. Gero, the genius who made something as durable as Androids, used a normal metal door to protect his ultra secret lab). The amount of good durability/striking feats they have in any case vastly outweighs any low showings they have there. And those too are physicals, and indeed the most important ones. DB characters only consistently lack lifting strength, and any low showings you might post will almost exclusively include just lifting strength.

I was just using that as a possible explanation. You have to admit, dragon ball characters having somewhat weaker striking makes more sense than Goten and Trunks getting so rusty they became snake level in overall power, which is what the other guy was implying.

Trunks/Goten instance could simply be explained as them holding back and not wanting to endanger people nearby.

This is another explanation.

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

41349

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#35  Edited By Eredin12  Online

@alextheboss: Goten and Trunks suddenly having below Spider-Man level striking would make no sense either tbh. Going just by the size of the snake, even someone like canon Vader could blow it apart with a gesture, and Vader's TK being more powerful than Trunks/Goten's stats is of course crazy to even think about, as we have consistently seen that DB characters punches and blasts are on the same level

Them holding back is much more logical, as they said themselves that they feared using too much power to endanger nearby people.

Avatar image for alextheboss
alextheboss

30679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@vortextitan:

Filler scene.

Still canon to the super anime.

Also Goku needed SSJ again the Trio Brothers and Basil lost to Good Buu even with drug pill. So ToP SSJ Goku~Good Buu>Basil and base Goku couldn't even one shot the Buu Saga fodders. Further base Goku lost to fit Buu sparring match another evidence he is below Buu Saga SSJ3 tier and all these are after the filler scene, clearly contradicting the earlier information.

Ssj3 Gotenks can't even one shot fat buu, so you just debunked your own claim by saying ssj Goku is about fat Buu level.

"Dragon ball characters consistently have fodder physicals which could explain them not winning with punches". What's your evidence for that claim

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

and how do you than explain DB characters overpowering Ki blast with their strength?

1. dragon ball is a terribly inconsistent series.

2. ki blasts create big explosions, but maybe the force of their push isn't that high

3. i'm not saying their physicals are actually weak, just that they are usually shown to be weaker than their ki attacks.

SSJ form being SSG was never the case.

it's literally stated in the anime...

It was RoF using Saiyan Beyond God state in base form without god ki and Goku using said base SSG power with SSJ to create SSB.

that's never stated in the movie, it was stated in one guide and partially implied by the manga version. we know base Goku had some sort of god boost in the movie, but BoG made it clear SSG was still stronger as he had to go SSG at the end to destroy Beerus' ball. So it goes ssj3<<<post SSG base<post SSG ssj<SSG. in the anime they just made ssj=SSG.

So it was base=SSG that got retconned.

Nah, that was never really the case, and even if it was, base is still above ssj3.

So nope neither base or SSJ is god tier.

Base Goku making Hit bleed, giving Beerus in the Monaka costume a fun fight, fighting Ikari Broly, ect. all contradict this.

He needs SSG now as it returned to be at that level again so.

Goku gets stronger throughout the series. Do you have proof his SSG just didn't get stronger? I'm not saying this theory is impossible, as Super is horribly inconsistent, but going with WHAT THEY SAY IN THE SHOW, ssj=God. So after that the new SSG would just be even stronger.

Top SSG Goku>>>>>BoG SSG>>>>>>>>>ToP SSJ1-3 Goku

What makes you say the gap is so big? In the Broly movie ssj Goku did better against Ikari Broly than SSG Vegeta. The multipliers in their forms don't seem that big anymore. SSB from SSG seems like a bigger boost than going from ssj to SSG at this point tbh.

Avatar image for alextheboss
alextheboss

30679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@seventhmoon:

You can still stomp people. You just can't kill them. Teaming up is only relevant if everyone has somewhat relative power levels.

This is the tournament Krillin seemed relative with 18, who later seemed relative to 17, who later seemed relative to SSB KKx20. The scaling is garbage and virtually everyone seems to be on a somewhat relative playing field besides Jiren.

If Basil was making Base Goku struggle and Base Goku = God Goku now, Buu would've been no threat to him.

I NEVER said base Goku=God Goku. I always argue against that. I only think his ssj form=SSG. Base is 50x weaker.

Play fight each other isn't actual fighting. These kids struggled with an Earth snake in episode 1 DBS. They're weak as hell.

Technically I could argue the snake upscales, though I don't want to do that, lol. And Goten and Trunks could have always just been ass. They have no good feats in Z either. Their only real fight not with each other is in Yo Son Goku and Friends return where base Goten and Trunks are shown to be relative to characters around 1st form namek Frieza level.

No he doesn't. That's not an argument.

How is it not an argument? lmao. Goku is X amount strong. Trunks matches him with no anti feats. He therefore scales to X.

This is the series where Gohan who was weaker than he was in the Buu saga trained for two days and fought SSB KK Goku... This is the series 17 reached blue level by protecting an island and confirmed to have done no further training...

Show me an anti feat for this version of Trunks, then we can talk. As of no YOU are the one without an argument.

I would actually like for you to prove me wrong, I just don't think you can.

Honestly, I'm actually kinda behind this interpretation too. His base in BoG = a portion of his god power and MSSJ = all of it. And for some reason, he couldn't transform further, otherwise he would've to fight Beerus.

Him not transforming further is interesting. For some reason it seems he was accessing his full power as a ssj.

Problem is that he clearly lost this regardless.

Beerus blatantly stated Goku kept the power. At worst I think you could argue Goku would need to go ssj3 again to reach that level. So base Goku is 400x weaker than SSG. I think that's pretty damn fair.

So do you think God just isn't a big increase if you think Base Goku is being around Good Buu level isn't a big deal?

Yeah, I don't think SSG is as big of a deal as others make it out to be. I think it was probably above Vegito, but a case could be made for ssj3 Vegito being close to SSG.

Durability is relative to offensive power in DB. That means Base Goku is decently relative to God Vegeta by that logic.

I think the gap may be smaller than most people think. I honestly don't think multipliers are consistent. Look at how Broly goes full power ssj against ssj Gogeta, gets an edge, then Gogeta goes SSB and still has trouble putting him down. This would imply SSB Gogeta isn't insanely stronger than ssj. In the ToP the blows that scared Goku out of SSB couldn't even take down his base form with repeated hits... Super is just stupid like that.

PIS had Gotenks fighting Cell Max.

true...

You underestimate the mindless writing of DBS.

I think everybody does.

Sorry, I hate Gotenks, but he's above Goku in the manga. Only in Toeiverse does Buu Saga Goku beat Gotenks and shits on him after the Vegito defusion power-up.

I disagree. ssj3 Gotenks is clearly on par with Super Buu. I have gone over the manga recently and I think it's pretty clear kid Buu>super Buu, Gotenks, and even ultimate Gohan. So now the question is if you think ssj3 Goku was actually kid Buu level, or if kid Buu was holding back a lot.

so it either goes

fat Buu<ssj3 Goku<Super Buu=ssj3 Gotenks<kid Buu

or

fat Buu<Super Buu=ssj3 Gotenks<ssj3 Goku=kid Buu

but either way I think ssj3 Goku is still above ssj Gotenks and somewhat close to ssj3 Gotenks even if lower.

These DBS conversations get really boring when repeating them with people in several threads (not you specifically), so this may be my last reply.

No problem.

Avatar image for alextheboss
alextheboss

30679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@eredin12:

Goten and Trunks suddenly having below Spider-Man level striking would make no sense either tbh. Going just by the size of the snake, even someone like canon Vader could blow it apart with a gesture, and Vader's TK being more powerful than Trunks/Goten's stats is of course crazy to even think about, as we have consistently seen that DB characters punches and blasts are on the same level

Them holding back is much more logical, as they said themselves that they feared using too much power to endanger nearby people.

Why are you assuming the snake is so weak? Those random bug fodders in the Broly movie were a threat to Pargus who had a power level in the low thousands and should be able to blow up moons easily.

Avatar image for kyle24
Kyle24

933

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Clears

Avatar image for ancient_0f_days
Ancient_0f_Days

21626

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@ancient_0f_days: no no no no. ALL versions of Buu with kais in them are weakened. After fat buu was ripped out of super buu he became STRONGER.

You wrote a bunch of other stuff but if it is based off only Fat Buu is weakened it's all wrong. If any of what you said is still relevant, repost it.

I already posted the evidence that proves your "All Buu with Kais in them were weakened" statement wrong since he didn't get weakened by absorbing Southern Supreme Kai and only got weaker after absorbing Dai Kaioshin, once fat Kai was removed along with Buu, he surged in power because he was at his most evil when he was pure. You literally didn't read any of what I wrote, so I dont have to repost anything, just read. As I stated, Buu gets stronger based on his emotional/mental state so the fact that his Ki surged after Fat Buu was removed has to do with his mental state reverting back to what it was before. None of that makes Kid Buu the strongest version.

Avatar image for alextheboss
alextheboss

30679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@ancient_0f_days:

I already posted the evidence that proves your "All Buu with Kais in them were weakened" statement wrong

lol what? the statement just says buu got weaker after absorbing the grand supreme kai. super buu still has the grand supreme kai in him. what you posted contradicted NOTHING I said.

since he didn't get weakened by absorbing Southern Supreme Kai and only got weaker after absorbing Dai Kaioshin,

yeah, the only kai stated to have made him weaker was the Dai Kaioshin.

once fat Kai was removed along with Buu, he surged in power because he was at his most evil when he was pure.

yes, he lost the inhibition form the dai kaioshin. the scan you posted was the supreme kai literally explaining why kid buu is stronger now.

You literally didn't read any of what I wrote, so I dont have to repost anything, just read.

I didn't read it because you wrote an essay based off an unquestionably objectively wrong claim. There is no debate here, you are just blatantly ignoring facts right now.

As I stated, Buu gets stronger based on his emotional/mental state so the fact that his Ki surged after Fat Buu was removed has to do with his mental state reverting back to what it was before. None of that makes Kid Buu the strongest version.

Kid Buu isn't stronger than the super buu fusions, but he is stronger than base super buu.

losing fat buu made super buu stronger. super buu was already evil. why are you ignoring blatant facts? you are clinging on to the silly fact I said "kais" instead of just saying "the dai kaioshin". Sure, it's not proven other kais weaken buu, that is completely irrelevant and doesn't change my argument. you claimed only fat buu was weakened by the dai kaoshin. this is objectively false, super buu was also weakened by the dai kaoshin. stop arguing with the blatant statements

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

41349

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#42  Edited By Eredin12  Online

@alextheboss: That is why I said going just by size. Of course, strong creatures are plentiful in fiction, but I still very much doubt Snake on earth should be near base Trunks/Goten. Realistically, they should treat them the same way Frieza did when he defeated the Namekians by breathing in their direction, but of course, they said they feared using too much power.

Avatar image for masterbuster666
MasterBuster666

8129

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@alextheboss: @eredin12: Actually, the fact that base Goten & Trunks unable to oneshot it with their punches & kicks is all the proof i need that they've gotten rusty tbh.

And no, neither of the kids pulled their punches on the giant snake.

Even BoZ characters would smack the snake too:)

Avatar image for wordsbeyondfic0
WordsBeyondFic0

716

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@eredin12 said:

Clears. Goku absorbed SSG power and was doing better against Beerus as SSJ than he was as SSG , with the narrator himself also confirming their blows were universal in said brawl:

No Caption Provided

I think have a higher opinion of Z-era characters than most people but I do not think they are that strong.

Avatar image for multifandomboyo
MultifandomBoyo

1464

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I don't recall the series ever saying Goku lost his base level God Powers from BOG, if anything he should be getting stronger

He clears

Avatar image for wordsbeyondfic0
WordsBeyondFic0

716

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Downplaying Goku so he can lose to Z characters is crazy, every series has anti-feats. Plus I'm assuming this is Anime Goku since there's a picture of him from the anime in the thread. This means you can't say he didn't absorb the God ki into his base.

Plus we know Goku holds back a lot half of the time, it's no secret.

Avatar image for ultrahandox
UltraHandox

98

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

At the end of BoG he surpassed SSG in base by the shown feat, Beerus said "you have gotten stronger" while only fighting in base, which doesn't make sense if he is 1/50 of SSG and little bit stronger.

Avatar image for kataraaaa
kataraaaa

6729

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Clears, easily I might add

Avatar image for infinitymatrix
InfinityMatrix

1781

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

He only struggles slightly at 7, assuming Vegito goes ssj2. The rest aren't really relevant here.

Avatar image for alextheboss
alextheboss

30679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

At the end of BoG he surpassed SSG in base by the shown feat, Beerus said "you have gotten stronger" while only fighting in base, which doesn't make sense if he is 1/50 of SSG and little bit stronger.

When was this? When Beerus was in the Monaka costume?