Spider-Man vs The Joker

The villain of the world’s greatest detective, a detective who has obsessively studied the Joker, is given 6 months prep, and Spider-Man, who knows nothing at all about the Joker, has to do what Batman can barely do? Joker wins with zero difficulty.

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The villain of the world’s greatest detective, a detective who has obsessively studied the Joker, is given 6 months prep, and Spider-Man, who knows nothing at all about the Joker, has to do what Batman can barely do? Joker wins with zero difficulty.

@professorrespect: There’s not really a need to elaborate much if you know the characters. Batman is 1000 times better of a detective, has billions of times better resources for detective work, has studied joker obsessively, and still has not figured out how to stop Joker besides for short term

This is more or less Batman's neurosis than anything else playing into that factor. Joker knows Batman more than enough to get around his usual need for patterns and whatnot: his chaos is how he's able to get around the tech advantage.

As for "Batman is 1000 better of a detective" and such and such, this is based on pure one sided materialism. Yes, Batman has the bigger catalogue of feats pertaining to detective work, but Peter has shown that he is more than capable of investigation himself, especially given his enhanced senses and his own near-genius intellect. Joker is not that cut and dry when it comes to prep, and has had very mixed results when he's not facing Batman: some heroes don't struggle as much.

The only reason Spider-Man could get a win, is if Joker allowed it

Wrong. Peter's tech and natural advantages already allow him to get the drop on Joker's usual nonsense. 6 weeks in a verse where Joker has zero leverage to prep is not a good place to start.

@professorrespect: No, Batman is 1000 times the better detective

Read above.

Spider senses and Peter’s intelligence don’t compare to Superman

Superman's not a genius like Peter is in the slightest. His powers and access to advanced tech allows him to do things that Peter can't necessary just produce, but in terms of brains? No question who is the one with actual feats. I'll go with the guy that could've been Reed Richards (according to the man himself) than a guy with some nice tech. Big old reach.

or the entire Justice League who team up with Batman because he’s the detective

They team up with Batman because he's the tech + money guy mostly. Detective stuff is helpful as well.

Also, Parker’s tech, is nothing compared to Batman’s when it comes to being a detective. The Computer alone is better then everything Spider-Man has across his entire history of comics

Yeah you haven't read Slott's stuff given he outright makes something that shits all over the Computer in his Webware tech and whatnot. You wouldn't be making statements like these otherwise because they are very easily corrected.

6 weeks is a ton of time for Joker to exploit a very exploitable character who is also one of the most publicly well known and documented super heroes in comic books, let alone just at Marvel

Exploit what? Joker knows nothing. He's in a verse that gives him zero advantages. He doesn't even know WHO he's fighting in the first place given this is regular (no knowledge) prep, so how on Earth is any of this happening.

@professorrespect: No, Batman is still 1000 times the better detective

See above.

Even if you are choosing to ignore Superman having literally super-intelligence, able to process information at superhuman speeds, an eidetic memory, and processing that has been called greater then Brainiac’s

It isn't, through. We know how much Brainiac processes (both himself and the ship) Sups couldn't handle it all. That, and you are literally just falling into the same stuff that I discussed above: Sups may have these super powers and whatnot, but if you are talking about intellect, Peter is superior. I'd rather go with th

you’re then also ignoring that Batman is a better detective then Flash

Because Flash isn't typically written for that kind of stuff. He could do it pretty easily given his speeds and whatnot.

Now if you’re going to claim Spider-Man is more of a detective then Flash also

Says where?

then you’re just more out of touch with these characters then even your first two comments make it seem

I think this is ironic given you've not really known much at all when it comes to Pete's own capabilities and seem to handwave a lot of it.

They don’t team up with Batman just because he has tech. He’s the World’s Greatest Detecrive

He's the World's Greatest Money Bank as well, yeah.

No, the Computer is much better for Detective work

Webware can steal info from any other bit of tech on the planet, as well as being able to use tech from way in the future for simulations and whatnot. Computer can't do that.

Also, webware was hacked

This is (again) showing that lack of knowledge when it comes to these things. First time it was hacked, they needed physical servers, 12 hours of long cracking with literally thousands of hackers trying to get in: and even then, it turned out to be a ruse by SHIELD and co to find out all of the Zodiac bases.

So erm.....no, not quite there. Pete only shut it because he didn't want Superior Octopus getting access (which, keep in mind, he didn't even get access to any of it before then).

Your last point is just a pretty weak attempt of an argument. You think Joker doesn’t know he’s fighting Spider-Man

It's prep, not prep w/ knowledge. There's a difference.

in this Joker vs Spider-Man battle, where 6 months of prep

6 weeks, actually. You've been saying that this entire time when it's not right, even when the OP corrected you.

You’re being willfully dense for the sake of a pretty weak argument

Ironic given the above.

Obviously the OP isn’t giving Joker 6 weeks to just sit around and wonder what’s going on

No, but he's being given 6 weeks in a verse he doesn't know anything about, with zero leverage mind you (which means he'll have to navigate through all of the existing crime bosses, which'll take even longer) for someone whom even if he did know about, it's a marginable knowledge that he can't do much of anything with given his environmental disadvantages.

@professorrespect: I’m not sure what you’re basing all of this on. Batman is definitely not the Iron Man of JL. He’s the detective

He's the money guy first and foremost through. None of the League are rich, in fact a good few of them live on fairly modest to no income whatsoever.

Superman and Flash’s powers of processing and deduction are superhuman by massive amounts. The only reason they aren’t featured as often, is because Batman is better

By the same extent as Spidey is a better foil for intellect than Sups, through for some reason that same logic doesn't get applied there.

Batman can just look at someone, and his cowl transmits everything he sees to the computer, getting detailed information on the individual, chemical analysis that lets Batman know where they’ve been, and all in seconds. This is something Batman has as standard gear, because he’s a detective, unlike Spider-Man

This is basic processing, the likes of which was already easily done by Webware technologies.

You’re acting like because 1% of Spider-Man stories have him playing more detective then super hero, that he is suddenly as good as Batman

I never said this, but a hard assumption is better to push over than the actual argument (that Pete is way better than people give him credit for) I suppose.

Bringing webware as the reason Spider-Man can compete with Batman, is also very weak, as it ended up a failure

More no-context statements about Spidey, great. As anyone can see above and look for themselves, SpOck had built in failsafes for all of his tech while he was in his body, so he had direct access to override everything....apart from the Webware, which was unbreakable. It was disabled so HYDRA and him couldn't even get the chance of actually cracking it.

It's "very weak" despite not knowing anything about the tech or even basic contextual encounters, sure.

Even with all of this, Joker is typically the superior of the two. Batman always catches the Joker, but it’s rarely ever because Joker couldn’t have prevented it. Joker wants the confrontations with Batman

Typically because he knows how Batman thinks and what he does: he doesn't have that benefit with other heroes or Spidey in this case.

He killed hundreds in the process, while making sure there were clues along the way, to lead to the worst possible outcomes, for all the characters involved. Spider-Man doesn’t have any villains as equally insane and genius as this

Wow, it's not like his arch-nemesis is some diabolical genius that managed to overturn nearly all official governmental organisations to heel and brought down Asgard or anything, no way he could compete with....killing a few hundred people?

To say that Joker doesn’t have enough time with 6 weeks, and one of the most well documented super hero’s ever, that would be very easy to research, is crazy

What "research" is this? The tabloids that exaggerate and make up nonsense about him?

He doesn’t need 6 weeks. He just needs a small amount of research, to figure out who Spider-Man is friends with, maybe some Joker Venom to cause chaos across the city, and a gun. Joker can get it done with that much

What "research" would give him such accurate information? How does he get access to all of that Joker Venom when it's not a thing that he can just access? It's easy to say that if this was in Gotham, but it isn't. He'd need to organise and actually create it from scratch, which would take a while and would probably be a issue when rival ganglords hear about him. How is a no-leverage Joker supposed to handle the empires of guys like the Owl or Kingpin? He can't.

Your points about Joker not knowing that he’s supposed to research Spider-Man is just weak

I'm noticing that you just seem to handwave and say everything is "weak" despite your whole argument being based off absolutely nothing but guesswork and "well Joker is really smart" despite Spidey being able to bring anyone to help him out here. Even if we ignore the obvious tech advantages he has, he can bring in any outside help he wants, and he has a lot to go through all in all.

You really think the OP made a battle, where neither side knows each other, and doesn’t know they’re not supposed to be doing the objective in the OP, and will then just never do anything

Is it prep with knowledge or without? It seems like without to me.

@professorrespect: Basically everything you said is just a repeat, and I don’t think you’ve said anything that is a strong argument, so I’m not going to just keep replying to things that I’m confident anyone who reads comics would be able to clearly see

Sure. I disagree with the whole "weak" argument handwave but it's fine either way.

I will say that Kingpin and Owl are really not that much of threats

Individually sure, but you are forgetting that these two have immense pull in the city this takes place in, and can very easily snuff out any rivals with sheer numbers at points.

The gallery of crime lords and villains in Gotham meet or exceed what they can do, specially when we’re talking about a thing like this, where Joker isn’t starting a gang, he’s just causing chaos

Joker still needs resources, through. His planning is reliant on those factors. He can't just walk in and do stuff like he could typically do.

Anyone who wants to muscle him, will just kill each other while exposed to Joker Venom

Again, how does Joker even get his Venom in the first place? If he wants to use it in large quantities, he'll need resources to do that in the first place.

It’s not like Joker keeps a huge list of henchman all the time, and needs the support of crimelords. He does most of the heavy lifting himself, and doesn’t have the vulnerabilities of crimelords that need to conduct their business professionally. That’s always been a winning area for Joker

Joker still plans a TON with outside factors and all sorts of different things, through. His plans seem chaotic but he does obviously have to still plan them out and organise.

I don’t even see why Kingpin or Owl would involve themselves with him, unless he starts trying to move in on their business, which he wouldn’t

That's not exactly true. Joker is loud and very chaotic, which would naturally mess up any of their usual discrete nature. He's not subtle, and certainly wouldn't just let these guys do what they want to do without butting in, especially when he sees their reach. Virtually nothing happens in New York without Kingpin knowing about it.

@professorrespect: You’re talking a lot about hand-waving for the guy who thinks Batman isn’t on JL as the detective

Not primarily, and you have: clearly: handwaved a lot of things as "weak" despite consistent incorrect applications of instances of feats. All I need to say.

I haven’t waved off anything either, I’ve just compared it to the much superior Batman when it comes to being a detective, something that I can’t believe I’m actually debating with someone. I’m not going to keep pointing out the obvious though, and have you just continue to abuse the quote button, and separate every sentence I write into something that you can repeat the same arguments

How is me separating your argument into sections to address it easier "abuse" of a function? Seems like a reach to me.

Joker requires so little resources and planning though

Based on?

What is he going to do to make Kingpin come after him? Hurt Spider-Man?

Kingpin's reach over the city is pretty much determined to be nigh-omnipresent in how he's able to know what's going on here and there. Any element that's disrupting or getting in the way of operations (which we both know Joker will get involved in during prep in one manner or another) he'll aim to stamp out or incorporate, and given he's got access to the Thunderbolts and a lot more now, it's not hard to see how that ends up.

Joker goes into a janitor’s closet and makes some Venom, is how he makes venom Not only were the comics where he did that made canon with current Joker, but Joker as the man who worked in a chemical factory, has been made canon as an origin. He’s capable of making Venom from basic supplies, like the time he used cleaning supplies out of a Janitor’s Closet

Ok, but how much is that going to yeld? A tiny amount wouldn't do much of anything outside of kill a few people.

Also, if we’re using your weird theory of the OP that this battle doesn’t really ever happen, because neither of them know it’s going to happen

That's not really true, through. Prepless prep is still prep (I.E. aiming to plan for a foe) but you just don't know who it is. It's not that radical of a concept, it's a basic tourney thing.

@professorrespect: You’re writing off my arguments just because I call yours weak

Not really, I've replied to basically everything. In comparison to just saying stuff is "weak" and then making some fairly bad contextless judgements, there's not a lot to discuss. I think what's worse is that you don't really acknowledge this context when shown directly to you either, which is a weird thing to do, you kinda just handwave and say "well it's a weak argument" which seemed kinda just generalistic.

and the abusing the quote feature, to only select areas you want to “debate”

I don't recall any omitting of your major points anywhere here, so this seems like a reach.

instead of actually reading my argument as a whole, and responding to it. It’s like when debaters think they can win arguments by butting in loudly while a point is being made, and by denying the point being made, they think they have gotten around it. The internet has made this type of debating easy to do, but it hasn’t made it effective. That’s why I say you’re abusing the quote feature. You’re not picking out topics to reply to, you’re breaking it apart

You do realise I'm reading your argument now, right? This seems just like a random complaint to add in.

But your arguments are weak. Like here, you’re saying Joker won’t have enough Venom from a janitor’s closet. Really?

You do realise your point was about causing tons of chaos, yet the actual reserves you'd get from such a small product wouldn't really do a whole lot of anything. Is the argument that he just kills the people that matter?

Joker has used pool supplies to make an entire pool and aquarium filled with venom. You know you have no way to debate this

Oh so now it's a larger source then? Seems like you keep changing the argument.

and you really shouldn’t be doing it. It just ruins your credibility when you debate against something like this, and make it seem like Joker is limited to a single Janitor’s closet, in 6 weeks of prep

When did I say this? Again, it seems like you are pulling stuff to complain about without any real narrative behind it.

How hard is it to get basic chemicals? How hard is it to go to wal-mart with $100, or a pool supply store with $200, and buy them legally. Joker would probably steal them, but still, it’s not like we’re talking some huge process in his creation of Venom. Let’s go at the very worst case, and say Joker needs 2 days of prep to make more Venom then he will need to kill 5 people, and a bunch more if he needs to cause chaos for whatever reasons

Now it's buying general supplies?

Like with Kingpin too. You only quoted the point where you can say Kingpin would know what’s going on, while leaving out everything else I said. So what if Kingpin knows Joker is taking down Spider-Man?

How would he know?

How many times have villains taken on Spider-Man, without Kingpin getting involved?

When was this a argument? Kingpin doesn't care about Spidey's wellbeing, but if business gets interrupted (which, again, it will inevitably be effected) then he'll most definitely just shut Joker down very quickly.

1000? I think that’s a pretty fair number at this point. You also ignored the point that Kingpin getting involved, would just cause more chaos for Spider-Man, which would work right into Joker’s way of doing what he does.

Kingpin would get involved mostly just to oppose Joker, not Spidey. Lesser of two evils and all that. The point was "ignored" when it was a short side-comment, not a argument.

Prepless prep?…. For real? Do you not realize the paradox of a statement that is?

Prepless prep is a thing, especially given you have any tourney that can show you prep with and without elements of knowledge or outside supplies. Joker seems to have prep, but he doesn't have that prep with knowledge or whatnot.

How could you possibly read the OP, and get this impression? If you think Spider-Man can’t win with Joker having 6 weeks of prep, then why are you siding with Spider-Man?

You do realise my original point was "he does a lot better than people assume otherwise" right?

@professorrespect: I just read back through my comments, and I’m coming off kind of like a dick. Lol

I don’t agree with you at all, but I think I’ve gotten so used to only debating against wankers on here, that I go straight to face palm mode when it’s not necessary. Lol

I actually like reading your comments from what I’ve seen, and you actually seem to talk about characters within a reasonable level, so sorry if I’m coming off like a douche. Lol