Speed vs Strength, Common MISCONCEPTIONS.

You're ignoring instances, some of them more recent, such as where Batman stated Superman can travel faster than light, him traveling from Earth to Jupiter in 4 minutes, him traveling from the Vega System to Earth in at most 30 minutes...

@cattlebattle said:

Great post, 2 things thoughComics pretty much throw physics out the windowHulk is deceptively fast for his size.....according to some writers.Colossus for instance--should move as slow as sh*t, being he's made of metal and all. Yet he's capable of various acrobatic feats

The X-men are a giant PIS machine...

I actually agree with the OP here! For example, I always thought Cannonball should be more powerful than he is currently. 'Course when you're dealing with the larger characters they tend to have deity behind them or are simply capable of more unbelievable feats than logic would suggest.

The thread was a great read!

@SlimJ87D: You're thinking only in terms of what a human is capable of when fighting H2H. He doesn't have to be able to punch, kick, or run that fast because Superman moving at faster-than-light speeds becomes effectively a superluminal bullet or projectile. All he has to do is be able to react at a speed less than one billionth of his top known speed. And he can react at those speeds as shown when he traveled from the Vega System to Earth. He had to be able to know where he is and to be able to stop within a distance (Earth's atmosphere) literally 0.000000000002% of the amount he traveled in total. And he has shown to be able to overcome resistance forces you mentioned as seen when he crashed into the moon, which has its own atmosphere, at just under light speed (which he stayed at purposefully).

@The Man of Yesteryear: For the last time I'm not talking about his ability to fly. I'm talking about hand to hand combat only because people claim that Superman moves and thinks at FTL from time to time and it's a big misconception. Please read the op thoroughly next time.

@SlimJ87D said:

@The Man of Yesteryear: For the last time I'm not talking about his ability to fly. I'm talking about hand to hand combat only because people claim that Superman moves and thinks at FTL from time to time and it's a big misconception. Please read the op thoroughly next time.

Did you even read my post? He doesn't have to punch or kick to be able to fight at FTL speeds, you're only thinking in terms of what a human does fighting H2H. Flying at those speeds he becomes a superluminal projectile, and he can react at those speeds if you would read my post again.

Think of it as a bullet that has a mind of its own...

You're going to have to bare with me because I'm on a tablet and it won't let me properly reply to you.

Anyways, back to the point of the subject. Im addressing Supermans battle speeds generally for the way hes used in this battle forum. Sure he can do what you say he does but how often does he do it? Almost never. There's no evidence of how much control he has to perform such a feat and it also takes time for him to accelerate to those speeds. There are plenty of scans that show he would have to charge up to perform such speeds. it's not like he's going to go FTL from a villain when they are 20 feet away from each other and most of the battles on this forum are set up as so. Claiming "Superman speed blitzes at FTL and wins" is not an argument when he never even does it. Second is the battle destination. Most battles are set up in a city. He's not going to perform a bullet FTL because he's not like the flash who has the speed force panda can create a frictionless aura. The majority of the ways these battles are set up, superman is fighting on earth and is in character, therefore he's not going to fly FTL or else he would cause external forces that would kill people.

So yes for the last time, I'm not talking about him flying and delivering a blow. I'm addressing when people show him face to face with someone speed blitzing the individual and claiming that he is "fighting at FTL" in the scan when I proved he clearly isn't. We should all be cautious when we use the term FTL, because a lot of people don't understand what it really means, literally faster than light speeds. So conclusion, sure superman with no morals could fly into someone at FTL. But the majority of the fights here have him in character with morals and fighting somewhere like let's say metropolis, he's not going to be doing the bullet FTL due to collateral damage and I've proven that he's not capable of fighting at FTL h2h either like a Flash can, also a reason why Flash IMO could beat Superman besides speed stealing.

@SlimJ87D: Ah, okay. I see what you're saying now.

Speed always wins.

Your going to have to bare with me because I'm on a tablet and it won't let me properly reply to you. Anyways, back to the point of the subject. Im addressing Supermans battle speeds generally for the way hes used in this battle forum. Sure he can do what you say he does but how often does he do it? Almost never. There's no evidence of how much control he has to perform such a feat and it also takes time for him to accelerate to those speeds. There are plenty of scans that show he would have to charge up to perform such speeds. it's not like he's going to go FTL from a villain when they are 20 feet away from each other and most of the battles on this forum are set up as so. Claiming "Superman speed blitzes at FTL and wins" is not an argument when he never even does it. Second is the battle destination. Most battles are set up in a city. He's not going to perform a bullet FTL because he's not like the flash who has the speed force panda can create a frictionless aura. The majority of the ways these battles are set up, superman is fighting on earth and is in character, there for he's not going to fly FTL or else he would cause external forces that would kill people. So yes for the last time, I'm not talking about him flying and delivering a blow. I'm addressing when people show him face to face with someone speed blitzing the individual and claiming that he is "fighting at FTL" in the scan when I proved he clearly isn't. We should all be cautious when we use the term FTL, because a lot of people don't understand what it really means, literally faster than light speeds. So conclusion, sure superman with no morals could fly into someone at FTL. But the majority of the fights here have him in character with morals and fighting somewhere like let's say metropolis, he's not going to be doing the bullet FTL due to collateral damage and I've proven that he's not capable of fighting at FTL h2h either like a Flash can, also a reason why Flash IMO could beat Superman besides speed stealing.

@SlimJ87D said:

Your going to have to bare with me because I'm on a tablet and it won't let me properly reply to you. Anyways, back to the point of the subject. Im addressing Supermans battle speeds generally for the way hes used in this battle forum. Sure he can do what you say he does but how often does he do it? Almost never. There's no evidence of how much control he has to perform such a feat and it also takes time for him to accelerate to those speeds. There are plenty of scans that show he would have to charge up to perform such speeds. it's not like he's going to go FTL from a villain when they are 20 feet away from each other and most of the battles on this forum are set up as so. Claiming "Superman speed blitzes at FTL and wins" is not an argument when he never even does it. Second is the battle destination. Most battles are set up in a city. He's not going to perform a bullet FTL because he's not like the flash who has the speed force panda can create a frictionless aura. The majority of the ways these battles are set up, superman is fighting on earth and is in character, there for he's not going to fly FTL or else he would cause external forces that would kill people. So yes for the last time, I'm not talking about him flying and delivering a blow. I'm addressing when people show him face to face with someone speed blitzing the individual and claiming that he is "fighting at FTL" in the scan when I proved he clearly isn't. We should all be cautious when we use the term FTL, because a lot of people don't understand what it really means, literally faster than light speeds. So conclusion, sure superman with no morals could fly into someone at FTL. But the majority of the fights here have him in character with morals and fighting somewhere like let's say metropolis, he's not going to be doing the bullet FTL due to collateral damage and I've proven that he's not capable of fighting at FTL h2h either like a Flash can, also a reason why Flash IMO could beat Superman besides speed stealing.

Reading this post made me think about DBZ physics.

I've enjoyed this thread very much, but conversely I believe this is going to be the standard for quite some time.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArtisticLicensePhysics?from=Main.PhysicsGoof

Thanks for the read and support guys.

@MagneticShockwave: You know there is actually a lot to Dragonball Z besides its inconsistencies. It's a shame that flame wars occur with DBZ debates, but people always forget during the Saiyan fight with Nappa and Vegeta and the cell games people actually couldn't see the fight happening. They actually move incredibly fast, and if Goku could actually move at blur speeds with tons tied to his wrist and arms then that would mean he'd be quite powerful. But lets not talk about DBZ any further for it is forbidden to use them in battles unless if you mix and match with a team.

@Soulstealer said:

I've enjoyed this thread very much, but conversely I believe this is going to be the standard for quite some time.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArtisticLicensePhysics?from=Main.PhysicsGoof

Thanks for this article. It was quite an entertaining read. I believe that basic fundamentals (such as scientific common sense) shouldn't be ignored. But for comic book sake I don't think we would have to go as far as %70 of stuff on that site haha. Still a great read.

@SlimJ87D said:

Thanks for the read and support guys.

@MagneticShockwave: You know there is actually a lot to Dragonball Z besides its inconsistencies. It's a shame that flame wars occur with DBZ debates, but people always forget during the Saiyan fight with Nappa and Vegeta and the cell games people actually couldn't see the fight happening. They actually move incredibly fast, and if Goku could actually move at blur speeds with tons tied to his wrist and arms then that would mean he'd be quite powerful. But lets not talk about DBZ any further for it is forbidden to use them in battles unless if you mix and match with a team.

@Soulstealer said:

I've enjoyed this thread very much, but conversely I believe this is going to be the standard for quite some time.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArtisticLicensePhysics?from=Main.PhysicsGoof

Thanks for this article. It was quite an entertaining read. I believe that basic fundamentals (such as scientific common sense) shouldn't be ignored. But for comic book sake I don't think we would have to go as far as %70 of stuff on that site haha. Still a great read.

Interesting. You spoke exactly what was on my mind. But I'll go ahead and respect your request and quit for the sake of your thread.

@SlimJ87D said:

Thanks for the read and support guys.

@MagneticShockwave: You know there is actually a lot to Dragonball Z besides its inconsistencies. It's a shame that flame wars occur with DBZ debates, but people always forget during the Saiyan fight with Nappa and Vegeta and the cell games people actually couldn't see the fight happening. They actually move incredibly fast, and if Goku could actually move at blur speeds with tons tied to his wrist and arms then that would mean he'd be quite powerful. But lets not talk about DBZ any further for it is forbidden to use them in battles unless if you mix and match with a team.

@Soulstealer said:

I've enjoyed this thread very much, but conversely I believe this is going to be the standard for quite some time.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArtisticLicensePhysics?from=Main.PhysicsGoof

Thanks for this article. It was quite an entertaining read. I believe that basic fundamentals (such as scientific common sense) shouldn't be ignored. But for comic book sake I don't think we would have to go as far as %70 of stuff on that site haha. Still a great read.

Interesting. You spoke exactly what was on my mind. But I'll go ahead and respect your request and quit for the sake of your thread.

Hmm, i can't agree with the statement that Superman would beat the Hulk due to speed.  Only because it has been stated several times that his powers are unlimited, and shown to go above and beyond any of his set boundaries.  Also his speed is attributed to his anger amping and muscle growth. So it makes that statement false.  Hulk has the potential and has been shown to be about counter speedsters, in a given situation with proper motivation, but also shown without depending on the incarnation.
The Likely scenario is that his frustration with not being able to Hit Superman would amp him to a point where he could.  
You also have to add in the fact that, that given the incarnation, the amount of strength he would be able to use at base would vary, from savage,grey, professor, cosmic, war, mindless, wwh, wb, nul, maestro.  Now it could be argued on the basis of each Hulk how the fight would turn out, how much Hulk would need to be able to amp to Hit Superman. Some like WWH, WB,Nul, Cosmic, Maestro or War, may not even have that problem at all of being able to match or negate Superman's speed advantage. Savage depending on motivation, grey couldn't pull it off, Professor has had some really good showings with Thor and Juggs, so it would be a tough debate.  
Then you have the obvious limit to Superman's strength without a sun dip amp. Vs. the unlimited Strength of the Hulk. This would be a very good debate if people didn't just refer to the earth moving feat, which isn't something he did alone or could actually accurately be calculated.  There is no way to know who moved what in that scenario, and it can't be stated that somehow the effort was split equally among everyone involved, because that is not how it works.
 
As someone said earlier in the thread, the Speedforce to me, makes no sense at all. I liked the days when Flash's powers origin was chemicals, and lighting. That made sense to me.  I really liked the breakdown difference between the two speeds from marvel and dc.  That description of Quicksilver's body was very believable as to why his powers acted the way it does. I Also still don't know why Zoom is mentioned as a speedster, he really should be under time manipulators. Unless it's Professor Zoom, how come no one talks about him???
 
Anywho, this is a great thread.

I've said this on other threads, but it's hilarious how people try to use the examples of Hulk tagging people slower than Superman and Flash as proof that he can actually tag Superman and Flash.

Stop meaninglessly flagging posts. You know who you are.

@The Man of Yesteryear said:

You're ignoring instances, some of them more recent, such as where Batman stated Superman can travel faster than light, him traveling from Earth to Jupiter in 4 minutes, him traveling from the Vega System to Earth in at most 30 minutes...

The scan of Superman traveling to Saturn was in Lex Special 2000. He wasn't coming from Earth, though. He was already in space on the previous page, punching through a comet in anger. Then, on the next page, he's seen flying through a moon in Saturn's orbit four minutes later. While traveling faster than light there is very possible (we just don't know the exact speed because his exact location before that showing is unknown; plus, he would have to be moving pretty fast in order to just plow through that moon like that), we aren't exactly sure were he's coming from.

superman has dodged what might be lasers or charged particle energy beams (both appear similar and i don't recall the text explicitly) from a standing position and not using his flight speed. Wonder Woman has parried lasers with her bracelets. Both show a perception of the beams movement and progression and then a coordinated bodily movement to evade or block the attack. Although not showing instanteous acceleration to light speed, they do show reaction speeds far beyond most characters. Now taking it to a logical conclusion in respect to Wonder Woman, her ability to move her arms to parry almost simultaneous laser beams fired from different angles / vantage points, means that she needs to track several incoming light speed attacks and move her arms fast enough to block them. Thus her arms are crossing short distances potentially as quickly as a laser. Just a few thoughts.

SlimJ87D said: "I did these calculations before in an old post. It did turn out that Superman was a few magnitudes above strength than Hulk who lifted 150 billion tons". The hulk did not lift 150 billion tonnes, if you are referring to the event in secret wars. Despite what the cover says, the actual comic clearly states he is only bracing the part of the mountain above them. There is a difference between lifting and bracing.

the creator: Well of course Hulk only lifted and braced part of the mountain hence 150 billion tons. Mountains weigh in the trillions.

MarvelRulesTheWorld said: "Well of course Hulk only lifted and braced part of the mountain hence 150 billion tons. Mountains weigh in the trillions." I think you give too much credit to the writer. I doubt that they would truely understand the weight of massive irregular form natural objects. Most of them would struggle to calculate the weight of a building from basic principles let alone a mountain or mountain range. However a quick calculation of the weight of Mount Everest for example gives us around 6.5 trillion tonnes. However when we talk about this bracing specifically and in this case the Hulks statement (bracing the mountain directly above them), he was supporting the wall / roof of a small cavern at the base of the mountain range. The stone walls ran to the ground and thus a proportion of the weight runs directly past the hulk. He merley reinforces the walls ability to support its weight (and that of the rock above them). In this case even I would struggle to say what the weight was that the hulk was supporting because I don't know the height of the mountain range above him, I don't know how much mass the walls of the carvern are supporting themselves, I don't the angle of the wall relative to the hulk and I don't know the exact size of the cavern. And we want to believe the writer estimated this......guestimated mostly likely and probably very badly.

I have updated the OP to include the Hulk's speed.

The Hulk's speed

The proposal

Here I wanted to discuss how fast the Hulk is. I would like to hear some feedback. Often times we wonder how the Hulk manages to go toe to toe with enemies who have marginal speed advantages over him. Enemies such as the Silver Surfer, Sentry, etc. The first and foremost response we hear from users around here is that it is obvious plot/writer/artist induced stupidity [PIS, WIS and AIS (PWA)]. My proposal is that the Hulk isn't at a speed disadvantage but rather his reflexes and mind set are not on par with speedsters. This proposal sets a means for consistency rather than we claim PWA all the time. Now to further ado, I give scans for us to discuss.

The Evidence

Hulk performs a Thunderclap with such force, the pressure from the sonic boom sends cars and people (through concrete walls) flying:

The amount of speed Hulk would require would be dozens that of the speed of sound. There is absolutely no way someone of the Hulk's stature can perform such a feat moving at normal or even 10 to 100 times faster. It would have to be tremendous. It is absolutely impossible for the Hulk to perform a feat with strength alone.

The Hulk leaps to escape velocity:

For an object to escape the earths atmoshphere, it must have an initial velocity of Mach 34. Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_velocity. For Hulk to perform such a feat, his legs would have to accelerate and propel someone of his weight, which is approximately 2000 pounds, at even greater speeds than so. It is absolutely impossible for the Hulk to perform a feat with strength alone.

Objects to the moon:

Back to escape velocity. Fin Fang Foom weighs 40,000 lbs (20 tons). The Hulk's arm would have to propel Fin Fang Foom at those speeds in order to make him escape. Fin Fang Foom actually ended up on the moon which is much further than just escaping the earths atmosphere. Much like a baseball pitchers arm swinging at the same speed he releases the ball, the Hulk's arm would have to be moving at much greater speeds than so. There is absolutely no way the Hulk could have performed such a feat with strength alone.

The Reason (then why does the Hulk have difficulties tagging speedsters at times)

So if the Hulk is so fast, why does he have such difficulty tagging street leveler fighters with great dodging ability such as the Captain America, Spider-man, etc? Part of your answer is that they are great at dodging. How often are they hit with bullets? Not quite often. The other part is the Hulk lacks the ability to speed up his thought process and mindset in addition to his reflexes possibly being a few magnitudes above average. The Hulk's powers stem from being physically amped. His powers do not affect his mindset. A great example would be how Superman and the Flash whom are capable of such feats. Here is a scan.

So what is the excuse? Why is it not PAW when the Hulk fights foes such as the Sentry?

This is a fairly simple answer. It's because the Sentry who we all know moves at extreme super speed with a sped up mindset (collects multiple I-Beams and builds a structure within a matter of seconds) has chose to downplay his mindset to Hulk's levels. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to have a conversation. If Sentry's mindset was sped up to super speeds, he wouldn't be able to understand a word the Hulk said along with Hulk not being capable of understanding a word the Sentry said. This is the sole reason why the Hulk and Sentry and trading blows near evenly due to their mindsets being at the same pace.

Conclusion

The Hulk has performed some remarkable feats. Often times it is the common misconception that his feats are performed with strength alone and there is in no way, shape or form that his feats required any sign of super speed. We have blamed plot/writer/artist induced stupidity (PAW) for story lines that involve Hulk going toe to toe with foes who are considered speedsters in their own right. My purpose for this post was to rather than blame PAW, there should be consistency. By taking the time to properly analyze these scans, it is evident that the Hulk does move his limbs are great speeds greater than sound. He just lacks the speedster mindset to control them on levels such as Superman, Flash, Silver Surfer, etc.

I like most of what you've said, but I'd like to add that for Thunderclaps, comics have made it so that you just have to be strong to perform one.

@ReVamp: How about him throwing Fin Fang Foom or him escaping the earths atmosphere?

@SlimJ87D:

1. i love this thread
2. Very interesting stuff about the Hulk and his speed
3. Why would Sentry slow down his mindset? Is it cuz of respect for his old friend? or just for the challenge

@SlimJ87D said:

@ReVamp: How about him throwing Fin Fang Foom or him escaping the earths atmosphere?

That's not "Bad Science" but instead "Comic Science" (I'm stealing Razz's terms here). Hulk has unlimited strength, thus he has enough strength to propel him and throw Fing Fang Foom out of Earth's gravity.

@Greendevil: Yes, as a sign of respect in a way of talking man to man. Throughout their fight they were shouting and yelling at each other every once in awhile. If the Sentry had sped up his mindset, it wouldn't be able to understand a word the Hulk as saying. Everything would be at extremely slow motion.

This is very informative. I like it, well done.

@SlimJ87D said:

Nice thread

I have nothing to add really, I agree with almost everything you said.

But even if we all agree that hulk is hundreds of times faster than sound, he still shouldn't be able to tag characters which are millions of times faster than sound, and have nanosecond reaction time

@SlimJ87D:

Good post.

Something I've never gotten, speedsters have been shown to be able to hit at Superhuman levels while never being shown to have Superhuman durability. So, they can hit Superman and make him feel it, while easily being knocked out by him if tagged, yet 2 speeders can slug it out with eachother at super speeds.

@SlimJ87D: awesome thread, i´ll take some time to read it all and learn something.

great job!

@drgnx said:

@SlimJ87D:

Good post.

Something I've never gotten, speedsters have been shown to be able to hit at Superhuman levels while never being shown to have Superhuman durability. So, they can hit Superman and make him feel it, while easily being knocked out by him if tagged, yet 2 speeders can slug it out with eachother at super speeds.

I love DC's explanation for Speedsters and how they are connected to the speed force. They pretty much back every flaw up with the speed force and it's protective aura it surrounds the Flashes in.

As for Marvel, Pietro's handbook entry explains how he handles moving at high speeds. It's pretty interesting.

Pietro's body is adapted towards the rigors of high-speed running. His cardiovascular and respiratory systems are many times more efficient than those of a normal human being. He metabolizes an estimated 95% of the caloric energy content of foodstuffs (normal humans use about 25%). The chemical processes of Quicksilver's musculature are so highly enhanced that his body does not generate fatigue poisons, the normal by-products of locomotion, which force the body to rest. Rather, his body constantly expels waste products during his accelerated respiration through exhalation. His joints are smoother and lubricated more efficiently than those of a normal human being. His tendons have the tensile strength of spring steel. His bones contain unknown materials significantly more durable than calcium to withstand the dynamic shocks of his feet touching the ground at speeds a human could never achieve or withstand. Quicksilver's practical reaction time is several times faster than a normal human's and the speed at which his brain processes information is heightened to a level commensurate with his bodily speed, enabling him to perceive his surroundings while traveling at high velocities. Quicksilver's lachrymose is more viscous than normal, thus preventing rapid evaporation and replenishment of surface fluids on his eyeballs under the influence of high wind velocity to occlude his vision.

Taken from various soruces:

1. ↑ X-Factor: The Quick and the Dead #1
2. ↑http://marvel.com/universe/Quicksilver
3. ↑Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A-Z #9

@SlimJ87D said:

@drgnx said:

@SlimJ87D:

Good post.

Something I've never gotten, speedsters have been shown to be able to hit at Superhuman levels while never being shown to have Superhuman durability. So, they can hit Superman and make him feel it, while easily being knocked out by him if tagged, yet 2 speeders can slug it out with eachother at super speeds.

I love DC's explanation for Speedsters and how they are connected to the speed force. They pretty much back every flaw up with the speed force and it's protective aura it surrounds the Flashes in.

As for Marvel, Pietro's handbook entry explains how he handles moving at high speeds. It's pretty interesting.

Pietro's body is adapted towards the rigors of high-speed running. His cardiovascular and respiratory systems are many times more efficient than those of a normal human being. He metabolizes an estimated 95% of the caloric energy content of foodstuffs (normal humans use about 25%). The chemical processes of Quicksilver's musculature are so highly enhanced that his body does not generate fatigue poisons, the normal by-products of locomotion, which force the body to rest. Rather, his body constantly expels waste products during his accelerated respiration through exhalation. His joints are smoother and lubricated more efficiently than those of a normal human being. His tendons have the tensile strength of spring steel. His bones contain unknown materials significantly more durable than calcium to withstand the dynamic shocks of his feet touching the ground at speeds a human could never achieve or withstand. Quicksilver's practical reaction time is several times faster than a normal human's and the speed at which his brain processes information is heightened to a level commensurate with his bodily speed, enabling him to perceive his surroundings while traveling at high velocities. Quicksilver's lachrymose is more viscous than normal, thus preventing rapid evaporation and replenishment of surface fluids on his eyeballs under the influence of high wind velocity to occlude his vision.

Taken from various soruces:

1. ↑ X-Factor: The Quick and the Dead #1
2. ↑http://marvel.com/universe/Quicksilver
3. ↑Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A-Z #9

Shucks, I never even considered Q.S.

Thanks for the info!

As you talk about consistency, why don't we take in to account all the times that the Hulk has missed hitting opponents who are of human reaction time and speed (and possessed of human strength as well). They do not have the strength/speed to move their limbs at superhuman speed so how is it that they evade the Hulk so easily. If we take these instances in to account I would be more inclined to believe that it is PAW (using your terminology) that results in many of these instances of inconsistent feats. Many writers I doubt actually think through the story from a science fact perspective before they write it. Therefore most writers won't percieve the fact that the hulk needs to move his arm real fast to hurl a 20 tonne lizard in to space. Instead they simply would believe that the Hulk can power Foom in to space in much the same manner a shot putter can throw a steel ball. The Hulk can lift exponentially more and thus can propel a much bigger object a lot further. I really don't think it is any more complicated than that. Your science informed view point colours your perception of the feat because you perhaps are attributing your understanding to that of the writer. And as for the Hulk fighting beings capable of perceiving, thinking and taking complex action at speeds greater than the speed of sound, again PAW comes in to play, as it does not really look good in a story when the percieved hurt anti hero seeking vegance cannot lay a blow on his opponent, as perhaps should have been the case with WWH VS Sentry.

I had read this thread when i was first using this site. And i loved it. I had just uploaded a bunch of Zoom/ Flashscans to back parts of your post.

My bad, my prior post came out wrong. * i had just uploaded scans (for a different reason) that qctually support your speedster part of your post****

I'd like to point out that all this talk of whether physics should be applied to comics is somewhat useless. I'm sure that, yes, comic authors try to apply logic and physics to what happens in comics, at least the physics consistent with the laws of physics in that universe. But, we need to understand that in most cases these authors dont really know even basic laws of physics or how they'd apply to a certain scenario. Even in this thread and all this discussion, I've seen speculation about things happening that are not possible at all, and no one even noticed. I'll give a couple of examples...

1. Running really fast: Earlier someone was talking about Superman and Flash running at like 3,000,000 m/s and how quickly they could circle the Earth, etc. Well, this is just not possible, since escape velocity at the Earth's surface is ~11,000 m/s. So, maybe for someone like Superman with flight ability (i.e. he can move without pushing against something). But for Flash? I guess the Speed Force does it. For Hulk? Not possible. In fact, not possible for anyone without a "magical" explanation to back it up. If you try to run that fast, you'd just succeed in launching yourself away from the Earth and never to come back.

2. Jumping really high/fast: Can the Hulk jump to orbit? To the Moon? Well, unless he's standing on something super hard, no. The acceleration needed to get him to escape velocity in the span of a couple of meters would simply compact the material beneath him. He might jump a little, but a lot of the energy generated would go into compacting the dirt beneath him, or breaking the concrete, or whatever.

3. Lifting really big things: Can Hulk or Superman lift a building? Well Superman can lift really big things, but it's explained away as some "tactile telekinesis" or other magical thing. Hulk? Nope. He'd just grab part of the building and it'd snap off. Try lifting an airplane... nope. He'd just bend off whatever metal part he'd grab, unless he happens to grab a hard-point of some sort.

4. Punching/kicking really big things: Hey, the Hulk can crack the continent by stepping down really hard! Uhmm, no he cant. Same at the jumping problem, all he'd accomplish is to compact the dirt/rock/concrete/whatever that he stepped on. Also, whatever force he used on that punch would also apply to him. So, he'd launch himself backwards as his punch landed. Someone earlier talked about the Thing getting hit by a bus or whatever. Exactly! You cant just get hit by something really big and just stand there, not unless you have some sort of self-propulsion force like Superman that you can apply.

So, what's the point of bringing these things up? Are they impossible in the comics world? Obviously not, since they happen all the time. The point, is that we either accept that the writers have no clue what they're doing, or we are generous and assume there's some sort of unknown physics going on. Superman has some sort of special force field that allows him to lift really big things, the Flash has a special Speed Force that allows him to do things that are impossible, the Hulk must have some unexplained magical force that allows him to suck matter from another dimension (or spontaneously generate it), which allows him to hit things without compacting them (but only when that's his intent). People can run really fast without going into orbit. Etc, etc.

When you have so many things that are contrary to the physics we know, then you cant use it to explain anything. You have to look at what happens in the comics and just assume that it's possible. Who hits harder, Superman or Hulk? Well, we cant tell until it happens. We can look at the kinetic energy of their fists moving towards each other, but what about Superman's tactile telekinetic field? What about Hulks magical matter generation and matter-compacting-defying powers? The end result is, we cant tell who'd hit harder because we dont know the actual physics that are going on in the universe, we've only seen parts of it.

Am I saying that we cant speculate at all on who'd win in these matches? Not at all. We can still look at what these characters can do, and what they've been shown to be able to do, and extrapolate. But, we should understand that ONLY looking at something like the kinetic energy of someone punching, or whatever, is pointless. ALL these characters have so much stuff that they can do that's completely unexplained, and contrary to the physics we know, that we have to assume there is much going on that will affect the outcome. So you cant use the physics we know (for our world) and use it to counter the actual feats from the comics. The feats should come first, followed by inferred physics from those feats, followed by logic, and only lastly physics derived from our own world.

5,419 views, nice

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I hope you enjoyed the read.

@WillPayton: I like that post of yours. Yes, i the bigger picture the asphalt, etc wouldn't support his feats either. But what are we going to do here? Claim that everything the Hulk does is PIS? Anytime the Hulk fights Thor, Silver Surfer, Sentry, etc, are we always going to have to call it PIS? That is the real question. Thanks for your feedback too.

@the creator said:

As you talk about consistency, why don't we take in to account all the times that the Hulk has missed hitting opponents who are of human reaction time and speed (and possessed of human strength as well). They do not have the strength/speed to move their limbs at superhuman speed so how is it that they evade the Hulk so easily. If we take these instances in to account I would be more inclined to believe that it is PAW (using your terminology) that results in many of these instances of inconsistent feats. Many writers I doubt actually think through the story from a science fact perspective before they write it. Therefore most writers won't percieve the fact that the hulk needs to move his arm real fast to hurl a 20 tonne lizard in to space. Instead they simply would believe that the Hulk can power Foom in to space in much the same manner a shot putter can throw a steel ball. The Hulk can lift exponentially more and thus can propel a much bigger object a lot further. I really don't think it is any more complicated than that. Your science informed view point colours your perception of the feat because you perhaps are attributing your understanding to that of the writer. And as for the Hulk fighting beings capable of perceiving, thinking and taking complex action at speeds greater than the speed of sound, again PAW comes in to play, as it does not really look good in a story when the percieved hurt anti hero seeking vegance cannot lay a blow on his opponent, as perhaps should have been the case with WWH VS Sentry.

There are probably a lot of instances of the Hulk missing even below peak human like normal citizens etc as you said. I guess the whole "it's for plot thing" can be used to describe occurrences like so.

But let me just use an arbitrary example like Steve Rogers. Steve has many dodging feats, he has been capable of predicting the trajectory of gun fire just be looking at the posture of a person. We all know he doesn't dodge bullets mid path. The Hulk, with his mindset, only thinks to throw as much punches as a normal person would in a certain time frame. Second, he has to regain his composure (as we call that rechambering in my boxing class). Even though he performs the punch at high velocities, an experienced fighter like Steve isn't there anymore, just like how he's not there after his foes fire their bullets. It's like when you go disc shooting and you miss. That would give a reasonable explanation as to why it's hard for someone like the Hulk to catch a street leveler.

Thanks for your input Creator. What you said also makes complete sense. Hope all is well with you and your new role that is coming along..

@SlimJ87D said:

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I hope you enjoyed the read.

@WillPayton: I like that post of yours. Yes, i the bigger picture the asphalt, etc wouldn't support his feats either. But what are we going to do here? Claim that everything the Hulk does is PIS? Anytime the Hulk fights Thor, Silver Surfer, Sentry, etc, are we always going to have to call it PIS? That is the real question. Thanks for your feedback too.

Thank you! Yes, it's a thin line between what we consider PIS, or writer mistakes, or some unknown physics in the comic universe. Sometimes things that are just dumbness by the author is later ret-con'ed into physics... like Superman lifting huge things without breaking off pieces, or Flash's abilities being from the Speed Force, or whatever. I'm just saying that we should be careful when making these huge arguments based on "our" physics. Like, we can say that getting irradiated by gamma radiation wouldnt allow you to grow bigger and gain mass. Well, yes, correct. But, just because that's the explanation given in a comic book doesnt mean that's ALL that's going on. Maybe Hulk just taps into some other dimension that feeds him mass and energy and all that, but only the gamma radiation triggered the link from him to that dimension. Or maybe something completely different goes on and eventually they ret-con it to say it was never the gamma radiation at all, it was some alien being from an alternate universe that gave him his powers, or whatever. Hell, look at the guy on my avatar, the Will Payton Starman. His powers had one explanation, then after he died they ret-con'ed it to be completely different (which really sucked BTW).

Using our understanding of our physics is a slippery slope when talking about comics physics.

I love this post. I am all for scientific accuracy in comics, as much as possible anyway.

@Imagine_Man15: Yes, as much as possible or for it to suit the story as a reasonable explanation. There are times I believe absolute PIS, like DS tagging the Flash because the Flash forgetting to turn on his speed force aura durability. But I believe there is a reasonable explanation as to why the Hulk has gone toe to toe with foes that are speedsters. But there are times like WillPayton mentioned like Superman lifting the side of a building where it would suit the story best just to ignore it.

But we see Hulk consistently perform these kind of feats and go toe to toe with speedster like foes. We can either say one is comic book science and the other PIS, or go with consistency for the Hulk and accept that he is just handicap with the limited mental capacity and his strength and speed are magnitudes above his mental capacity. At least option number 2 gives an reasonable explanation for both while option number 1 is very vague.

@SlimJ87D: I was thinking of people a lot slower than Capt America, who is far above what I would term 'human' reaction speed - for a normal human that is. These occurrences are frequent but few people post them because they do not display a 'positive' feat, they do not highlight the high end abilities of the character. So why post them ? We should post them for the reason you mentioned in your post - Consistency - something that is sadly lacking in many debates. The visual nature of comics provides an advantage over books in many ways because it let's you see the actions as the writer imagines them to occur. In the image you posted with Spiderman dodging the hulk there are a number of problems. If the Hulk can move (his ams at least) at velocities as high as the speed of sound, why are there no after images of Hulks arm movement (a sweep line is shown to display the path of the hulks arm movement) yet we have multiple images of Spiderman as he moves around the Hulk, displaying his superhuman reaction speed. Yes the Hulk grabs him at the end but was Spidey in 'mid flight' so to speak and thus had limited options to change his path of movement. Then there is the issue that if the Hulk has limited ability to control this 'super speed' because his mind does not process perceptions and movement data at this speed as you suggest, what happens to Spiderman when the Hulk employs bullet speed movement to move his arm at Spiderman to grab him ? So we have a 350 lb arm moving at a velocity in excess of 700 mph and the palm of the hand must hit Spidey straight on, which also means we have additional force coming from the mass of the hulks body being communicated down the straightening rigid arm structure. As the theory is that the Hulk cannot process sensory data / think at these speeds, this means he must almost being hitting Spiderman as he would be relying on the sensory data of his palm contacting Spiderman to tell him he has contacted his target for his fingers to then close shut, pinning Spidey. And with all of this, he does this accurately enough to have his fingers placed to ensure he pins Spideys arms between his fingers........it's somewhat of a stretch. Spidey would certainly be injured (broken ribs etc) by such an impact considering what damage the Hulk can inflict with a blow. One last point, I know that you have made reference to the OHOTMU, as shown by the info you posted for Quicksilver. These same handbooks have stated that the Hulk has normal agility but a reaction time that is equal to a trained athlete. Should we casually dismiss these 'facts' because they don't align. The handbooks capture the info as the writer sees the character, in this case a being with above average reflex speed but not superhuman speed. Again it might not align perfectly with what appears on the page all the time but it is consistent with a lot of the characters feats and activities. If we ignore all of these occasions of merely human speed, are we not ignoring important 'scientific' data. This many instances of feats displaying simply human speed cannot all be outliers. Or should we be thinking that the fewer instances of truly superhuman reaction speed are the outliers and thus PIS. Just me musing. And yep the job and country change is running smoothly at the moment. Thanks for asking.

Added more information on IMP. Thanks @dccomicsrule2011 for the scan.

I don't understand why only Flash has the infinite mass punch.

If mass increases to infinity at the speed of light wouldn't all light-speeders hit with an infinite amount of force?

Why does only Flash hit like a white dwarf star when there are other light-speeders in the DCU?

@The Phantom Stranger: Well they could but they don't actually move as fast as the Flash does. The can fly from a few universes away and strike a planet at those speeds and destroy it just like Superboy-Prime wanted to do to Oa.

But here's an example for you. Black Adam runs at Mach 500 maximum. Sure he can fly faster than that, but his limbs move so that he can run at Mach 500. That means he honestly can't punch with more force than Flash can punching at light speeds and possibly greater.