Speed of Average Naruto Jounin?

It seems cowardly to me that you would quote me without tagging me, Vivas, but maybe you have some other reason for not wanting me to respond. Fortunately, I saw this, so I'll flesh out my point.

Just curious, how fast do you place the average Jounin?

Kunai/Shuriken Are Slower Than Bullets

This point is pretty simple, lets hear the speed of ninja throwing weapons straight from the horse's mouth, Kishimoto himself. He flat out stats that they can't compete with bullets, which in his mind are supersonic (lets ignore that there are in fact subsonic rounds in real life), which places kunai and shuriken slower than, limiting them to sonic speeds at most. Ninja are shown throughout the series to be able to throw projectiles faster than they can move, which you can acknowledge makes intuitive sense.

Q: What's your inspiration for the Chinese Zodiac hand signs? Were they based on any particular martial arts tradition?

A: Since Naruto is a Japanese fantasy world, you have to set certain rules, in a systematic way, and then it becomes easy to convey the story. The Chinese Zodias is something that is very, very old in Japan, and I wanted to draw on that ancient tradition.

Q: One thing I love about Naruto is how it's hard to tell when it takes place. People wear slippers, but then there are zippers on their clothes and they have telephone poles. What are thing we'll never see in Naruto - Computers, guns, planes?

A: I haven't really made up those specific rules, so there may be airplanes and some other vehicles, but absolutely no guns. Bullets fly at supersonic speeds, so there's no way that your shuriken could compete. As for computers, maybe, but they'd be low-processing computers.

Q: Eight-bit

A: Yeah, maybe Eight-bit, definately not Sixteen-bit.

[Note: At the bottom of the page, there is a small picture of Sasuke saying "Eight-bit... sounds like it's "Asteroids" for me."]

He has also said that missiles would be overwhelmingly powerful in the Naruto world, which corroborates this statement as the clear cut intentions of the author. I cannot stress this enough that I am not applying this standard to the most powerful of ninja, in-universe, people who are a cut above the norm. It would be ridiculous to argue that nobody in Naruto is faster than sound, however, it would be equally as willfully stubborn to deny that Kishimoto does not conceive the typical ninja as being as fast or faster than sound.

We clearly see Kakashi, a Jounin, about to be tagged by sonic attacks.

By picking young Kakashi as a Jounin, I hope to approximate the average Jounin, the topic of this conversation. In this instance, Kakashi using Chidori was about to get killed by thrown kunai if he hadn't been saved by Minato.

We all know that Kakashi isn't some slow Jounin because he is at least as fast as weightless Lee, who was capable of bypassing Gaara's sand shield.

Preemptive Rebuttal: The Gaara Sand Shield Argument

Now, the argument for weightless Lee and, by extension of Lee's speed being a prerequisite for Chidori, young Kakashi being faster than sound mostly comes down to them outpacing Gaara's sand shield, which defended from an explosion. I will start by pointing out something we all know, the essential distinction between aim-dodging and truly timing an attack.

In the above example there is some ambiguity as to how exactly Spider-Man is avoiding the lasers; is he actually dodging them before or after they are fired? It should be taken as the former when their is uncertainty because debating on behalf of a character is a positive endeavor - you have to debate a character up not debate them down. Something like the following would be a clear cut timing feat.

Now that we have that out of the way we can have a look at the Gaara feat, in chapter 131.

Now it should be obvious that because we don't actually see the shield time the explosion, it is inappropriate to use this as a feat of explosion timing for Gaara's sand. This is because Gaara could've either erected a shield consciously to protect himself or the shield could've preemptively formed a barrier to protect Gaara, like it has been shown to do multiple times.

Here is an often overlooked feature of Gaara's sand - it preemptively protects Gaara, also know as aim-timing.

A point I should stress is not that I think Gaara's sand always preemptively moves, which is not true, just that it could've easily done so in the explosion incident.

TL;DR: There is no evidence that Gaara didn't consciously defend from the explosion or that the Shield moved preemptively. Because the burden of proof rests with people making the true timing argument, we should treat this feat as "aim-dodging", similarly to the Spider-Man instance.

Corroborating Argument: Statements About Sonic Speed In-Universe

One thing that always struck me about sticking these exaggerated Mach numbers on normal Naruto ninja, is how do they reconcile the existence of the Sound Village? It's literally an entire village that uses sound based attacks and yet people thinkg the average ninja is faster than sound, often several times faster. It seems to really be a continuation of the CV fetish for speed, rather than any bit of reading between the lines. Anyway, we see that Dosu claims that the speed of sound is not something that can be surpassed by mere taijutsu.

Now, of course Dosu doesn't know the real potential of a shinobi's speed but we see that even low-level guys in the Sound Village, where he is from, are of the Jounin level, so he knows what the average Jounin level of speed is.

We also have Dosu feeling fairly confident that his sound can bypass Gaara's sand, despite having watched the entire Lee fight beforehand.

Indeed, this statement is corroborated visually where Lee is only portrayed creating sonic booms after opening multiple Gates, after which he breaks the sound barrier consistently.

Now, to tie Gaara back to the speed of Jounin, we see that no ninja before Lee was capable of touching Gaara, despite assassins trying to kill him throughout his life in the Sand Village. This confirms that the standard Jounin is too slow to bypass Gaara's sand and therefore should be about subsonic.

We also have a statement from Black Zetsu that Kirin surpassing the speed of sound is actually an impressive attack speed in the Naruto world.

For now...

That'll do for now, if you haven't responded by tomorrow or the day after I'll make a few more points, like the speed of Chidori, other feats I find indicative of subsonic speed for the average Jounin and an early rebuttal to the supersonic Curse Mark Sasuke argument. I haven't the time to re-read this and correct any mistakes so take it as an early draft.

Sub-Snail level ofc. kek.

@alphaq: "Kishimoto himself. He flat out stats that they can't compete with bullets"

Link to the interveiw please, every time i see someone mentioning that, someone else says that it's fake.

@alphaq: Sasuke stright up moved two people out of the way if a supersonic attack he's fodder to Jonin at the time.

Also in the Novels the Kunai move at supersonic speeds it's been stated, basically chakra makes the Kunai travel at high speeds. And in the war they throw Kunai at really high speeds.

Genin to Chunin should be FTE / Faster Than Eyesight

Chunin To Fodder Jounin should be low Supersonic

Jounin to Anbu Levels should be Supersonic+

Elite level Ninjas / War Kakashi Level would be Hypersonic

Kage Level Ninjas would be Massively Hypersonic

Super Kage / Tailed Beasts Levels would be Massively Hypersonic+

10 Tails Level beings would be Relativistic+ Speed

@mohamedossama99:

I don’t know where exactly it’s from, I can’t look it up because I am on my phone but here is something I noticed that I posted in the past.

Q: What's your inspiration for the Chinese Zodiac hand signs? Were they based on any particular martial arts tradition?

A: Since Naruto is a Japanese fantasy world, you have to set certain rules, in a systematic way, and then it becomes easy to convey the story. The Chinese Zodias is something that is very, very old in Japan, and I wanted to draw on that ancient tradition.

Q: One thing I love about Naruto is how it's hard to tell when it takes place. People wear slippers, but then there are zippers on their clothes and they have telephone poles. What are thing we'll never see in Naruto - Computers, guns, planes?

A: I haven't really made up those specific rules, so there may be airplanes and some other vehicles, but absolutely no guns. Bullets fly at supersonic speeds, so there's no way that your shuriken could compete. As for computers, maybe, but they'd be low-processing computers.

Q: Eight-bit

A: Yeah, maybe Eight-bit, definately not Sixteen-bit.

[Note: At the bottom of the page, there is a small picture of Sasuke saying "Eight-bit... sounds like it's "Asteroids" for me."]

@adamantine: Yes, but we don’t actually see him outpace the supersonic attack or anything. All we see is the guy take aim, then the dust cloud obscured the scene and Sasuke is behind the guy with Naruto and Sakura safely away. For all we know he simply outpaced the guy’s perceptions before he could fire or moved a relatively minor distance and used the cover of the dust cloud to get into an advantageous position before it could disperse.

Is that general kunai or chakra infused kunai? I remember in the novels Kakashi stomping fodder took seconds, so I doubt they were written to be that fast.

The average jonin should be around mach 100

Edit: lol, nice to see someone else using the “faster than sound” Kirin bait.

@alphaq: Naruto and Sakura where a pretty good distance behind him and it didn't show Sasuke grab them before it was fired.

@ourmanuel: You might be joking, I am honestly not sure, but if Jounin are Mach 100 how are explosions dangerous and threatening to them?

@alphaq: chunin exam sasuke is faster than explosions based on being as fast as lee who could blitz past gaara’s explosion timing sand.

Subsonic

@ourmanuel: That doesn’t answer my question though. I asked why explosions are dangerous to most Naruto ninja.

Firstly, as I’ve shown earlier, the sand shield can preemptively block attacks on occasion, so it did not have to time that explosion at all. Even Gaara could’ve consciously raised a shield as he waited for the tag to go off. Secondly, how does a normal Jounin in Naruto scale off CE Sasuke?

@silentnightz: This post is a pathetic attempt at lowballing.

@alphaq: Gaara couldn't control sand well at that time, it's all automatic so it would have happened when the explosion went off because that's how his sand works.

Every time we see the sand move on its own to save Gaara it moves after the attack moves not before. The scan you posted of Lee bypassing it shows this.

@alphaq: And for your second question, I forget their names but two featless fodder Jonin held off the Sound 4 in their CM forms and they're massively below Jonin like Kakashi and Guy.

@silentnightz: All of it is nonsense. That's my address to it.

@silentnightz:

Haku never slipped Kakashi perception he just jumped in front of Raikiri. Doesn't change the fact that Kakashi would destroy him and yes Asuma would too.

If Base Guy can slap the sand away effortlessly then Kakashi doesn't need his Shairgan to see Lee move, he was using it to see Lee opening the gates. The Shairgan can see Chakra flow.

Sasuke isn't stronger than the sound 4 by any huge margin and the fact still stands than two featless Jonin held them off.

How do you know his control over his sand wasn't enough to make a shield? He was capable of killing the ninja that attacked him and using his sand to recover objects easily, he even overpowered his mother's will right after this instance when he forced the sand actually hurt himself. If he was already comparable to his mother's will when it comes to sand manipulation, it strikes me as pretty fantastical to assume he can't create a simple barrier.

Now, it doesn't. Lee tricks the sand by making it think that he was going to attack Gaara from behind, which would only be possible if it anticipates and counters attacks before they are thrown. Similarly, we see the sand protect Gaara before any attack is thrown at all.

Those guys weren't Jounin in the Leaf, they were special Jounin, so they were only Jounin class in one area. That said, the S4 were easily Jounin tier according to Neji and they were shitting themselves at the thought of fighting Kimi, who Lee could keep up with in terms of speed, despite just having gone through life-threatening surgery. So it seems clear that Lee, even weakened, is still above the average Jounin tier in speed. But, really, we knew this when he could tag Gaara, when all the assassins of the Hidden Sand couldn't.

People like Kakashi and Guy are in no way representative of normal Jounin. Kakashi became Hokage and Guy is at least his equal, easily so once you take away his Sharingan. Asuma is inferior to both of those and he literally blitzed an entire team of Sound Village Jounin.

This. Jonin rank has too many members with massively different levels of skill to average them in an objective way. People here are using characters like Kakashi or Guy as examples, but they have stats well above most other jonin. Even Asuma is stronger than average

The average Jonin is fodder so the answer is subsonic. Only outliers would be Kakashi and Gai who are high Kage level characters, at least by the time of the War Arc.

@alphaq: In that scan it shows Lee moving first then the Sand is moving afterwards. In all instances of Gaara's sand protecting him the sand moves after the attack.

@alphaq:

Except Lee didn't actually attack, he merely moved to get into place to launch an attack. It would be like it Lee had pointed a gun but not pulled the trigger, he got himself into place but didn't release any offensive. But the sand still moved to intercept. So, no, I can't agree.

That example with the raining needles just shows that in some cases the sand moves after the attack - doesn't erase the fact that it moves before the attack in other cases.

Bullet level at best.

Like others already said, it really depends. Jonins vary massively in stats. You also have to keep in mind that there are regular jonins and tokubetsu jonins, and that the latter usually specialises outside of combat.

@alphaq: He did punch the sand at least in the anime, and the sand doesn't know what he's doing only that Gaara is in danger and it still moved after Lee moved.

@alphaq said:

@thevivas said:

“Real answer, they're subsonic at very best”

LMAO

It seems cowardly to me that you would quote me without tagging me, Vivas, but maybe you have some other reason for not wanting me to respond. Fortunately, I saw this, so I'll flesh out my point.

Just curious, how fast do you place the average Jounin?

Kunai/Shuriken Are Slower Than Bullets

This point is pretty simple, lets hear the speed of ninja throwing weapons straight from the horse's mouth, Kishimoto himself. He flat out stats that they can't compete with bullets, which in his mind are supersonic (lets ignore that there are in fact subsonic rounds in real life), which places kunai and shuriken slower than, limiting them to sonic speeds at most. Ninja are shown throughout the series to be able to throw projectiles faster than they can move, which you can acknowledge makes intuitive sense.

Q: What's your inspiration for the Chinese Zodiac hand signs? Were they based on any particular martial arts tradition?

A: Since Naruto is a Japanese fantasy world, you have to set certain rules, in a systematic way, and then it becomes easy to convey the story. The Chinese Zodias is something that is very, very old in Japan, and I wanted to draw on that ancient tradition.

Q: One thing I love about Naruto is how it's hard to tell when it takes place. People wear slippers, but then there are zippers on their clothes and they have telephone poles. What are thing we'll never see in Naruto - Computers, guns, planes?

A: I haven't really made up those specific rules, so there may be airplanes and some other vehicles, but absolutely no guns. Bullets fly at supersonic speeds, so there's no way that your shuriken could compete. As for computers, maybe, but they'd be low-processing computers.

Q: Eight-bit

A: Yeah, maybe Eight-bit, definately not Sixteen-bit.

[Note: At the bottom of the page, there is a small picture of Sasuke saying "Eight-bit... sounds like it's "Asteroids" for me."]

He has also said that missiles would be overwhelmingly powerful in the Naruto world, which corroborates this statement as the clear cut intentions of the author. I cannot stress this enough that I am not applying this standard to the most powerful of ninja, in-universe, people who are a cut above the norm. It would be ridiculous to argue that nobody in Naruto is faster than sound, however, it would be equally as willfully stubborn to deny that Kishimoto does not conceive the typical ninja as being as fast or faster than sound.

We clearly see Kakashi, a Jounin, about to be tagged by sonic attacks.

By picking young Kakashi as a Jounin, I hope to approximate the average Jounin, the topic of this conversation. In this instance, Kakashi using Chidori was about to get killed by thrown kunai if he hadn't been saved by Minato.

We all know that Kakashi isn't some slow Jounin because he is at least as fast as weightless Lee, who was capable of bypassing Gaara's sand shield.

Preemptive Rebuttal: The Gaara Sand Shield Argument

Now, the argument for weightless Lee and, by extension of Lee's speed being a prerequisite for Chidori, young Kakashi being faster than sound mostly comes down to them outpacing Gaara's sand shield, which defended from an explosion. I will start by pointing out something we all know, the essential distinction between aim-dodging and truly timing an attack.

In the above example there is some ambiguity as to how exactly Spider-Man is avoiding the lasers; is he actually dodging them before or after they are fired? It should be taken as the former when their is uncertainty because debating on behalf of a character is a positive endeavor - you have to debate a character up not debate them down. Something like the following would be a clear cut timing feat.

Now that we have that out of the way we can have a look at the Gaara feat, in chapter 131.

Now it should be obvious that because we don't actually see the shield time the explosion, it is inappropriate to use this as a feat of explosion timing for Gaara's sand. This is because Gaara could've either erected a shield consciously to protect himself or the shield could've preemptively formed a barrier to protect Gaara, like it has been shown to do multiple times.

Here is an often overlooked feature of Gaara's sand - it preemptively protects Gaara, also know as aim-timing.

A point I should stress is not that I think Gaara's sand always preemptively moves, which is not true, just that it could've easily done so in the explosion incident.

TL;DR: There is no evidence that Gaara didn't consciously defend from the explosion or that the Shield moved preemptively. Because the burden of proof rests with people making the true timing argument, we should treat this feat as "aim-dodging", similarly to the Spider-Man instance.

Corroborating Argument: Statements About Sonic Speed In-Universe

One thing that always struck me about sticking these exaggerated Mach numbers on normal Naruto ninja, is how do they reconcile the existence of the Sound Village? It's literally an entire village that uses sound based attacks and yet people thinkg the average ninja is faster than sound, often several times faster. It seems to really be a continuation of the CV fetish for speed, rather than any bit of reading between the lines. Anyway, we see that Dosu claims that the speed of sound is not something that can be surpassed by mere taijutsu.

Now, of course Dosu doesn't know the real potential of a shinobi's speed but we see that even low-level guys in the Sound Village, where he is from, are of the Jounin level, so he knows what the average Jounin level of speed is.

We also have Dosu feeling fairly confident that his sound can bypass Gaara's sand, despite having watched the entire Lee fight beforehand.

Indeed, this statement is corroborated visually where Lee is only portrayed creating sonic booms after opening multiple Gates, after which he breaks the sound barrier consistently.

Now, to tie Gaara back to the speed of Jounin, we see that no ninja before Lee was capable of touching Gaara, despite assassins trying to kill him throughout his life in the Sand Village. This confirms that the standard Jounin is too slow to bypass Gaara's sand and therefore should be about subsonic.

We also have a statement from Black Zetsu that Kirin surpassing the speed of sound is actually an impressive attack speed in the Naruto world.

For now...

That'll do for now, if you haven't responded by tomorrow or the day after I'll make a few more points, like the speed of Chidori, other feats I find indicative of subsonic speed for the average Jounin and an early rebuttal to the supersonic Curse Mark Sasuke argument. I haven't the time to re-read this and correct any mistakes so take it as an early draft.

RAUCOUS APPLAUSE FOR THIS POST

So sick of people w*nking the Gaara explosion thing and using it to argue for easily hypersonic genin. What a steaming load.

Agreed.

For a bog standard jounin in Naruto- supersonic to bottom-of-the-barrel hypersonic in combat speed, even less than that for travel.

by actual canon and filler and logic most ninjas dont surpass Speed of sound, bunch of ordinary people were watching genins and Chunins battle it out during Part 1 and current Boruto, ninjas also use trains and dont travel countries in seconds and kabuto statement of his charkra speed being 360kmph.

at the very least you can say that Part 1 Lee was FTE without weights.

calc based on battles is all assumptions and make no sense, since in battle you cant accurately judge nor calc speed since there is instinct of the character involved, sensing of the character, battle experience of the character and a bunch of other crap involved that wank calc, also being a manga does not help and lastly the assumption of how fast their attacks even are most commonly Lightning and light made of magical energy not bound by reality or laws of physics with all of that combined you have the recipe for a disastrous calc.

That's actually a good point, never thought of that. Why would a bunch of people be so excited to see a fight they can't possibly follow?

'kabuto statement of his charkra speed being 360kmph.'

Interesting, where did you get that from? It's rare to get such a specific figure regarding speed in Naruto.

Judging by the Deidara, Tsuchikage, Naruto, Kakashi, and team Guy at the start of part 2, their combat speed is around 100mph.

Otherwise, Deidara's bird would have been useless. It also matches with elite Anbu being able to leap across the stadium seats in one bound.

The amount of downplaying in here is absolutely laughable. And it's mostly coming from other manga fans who are jealous Naruto is the strongest series.

-The weakest incarnation of Naruto, not even a Genin at that point, was Mach 5 by statement. How the hell does Mach 5 and 10 the most votes?

-And then we have another Genin, like Rock Lee who in base was blitzing Gaara's sand. Gaara's sand is faster than explosion speed, which is Mach 24. Not even accounting him activating the Gates, which multiples his speed several times over, which easily goes past Mach 100.

-And we have a proven statement in manga, databook and novels that Kid Kakashi was Mach 290. A lightning timer. At that point, Kid Kakashi was a Jonin.

So Jonins are minimum lightning speed.

Cutting lightning doesn’t make you lightning speed, and that feat could very well be a massive outlier considering the context and statements surrounding kirin’s use.

@ourmanuel: Lifting a 2 ton car doesn't make you a tonner. Lol. What the hell...?

Kirin was calculated at Mach +4000, so it's not your real life lightning. And there is nothing outlier about it. It's stated in all 3 official sources from the author: manga, databook and novels that Kid Kakashi was lightning speed. If the auhor reinforces that notion everywhere, it's undeniable fact.

LMAO that some people still believe Kid Kakashi is a lightning timer...

Naruto highballers will lap up filler scenes from the anime if it means they get to bump up their character. And yes, it would be a colossal outlier even if it were true.

Maybe I'll dump that scan again where Kisame explicitly states Gai's Morning Peacock is supersonic if people don't stop highballing...

faster than triple digit mach lightning speed ++++++++++++++

Wasn't sasuke dodging explosions in his fight with Deidara

Didn't kakashi, sasuke and team Gai out run an expanding explosion.

Wasn't rock Lee shown with sonic books in the fight against gaara

Isnt Gai fast enough to set the air on fire with the speed of his punches

Didn't sasuke, and his team go to and fro across the country from the battle field to Konoha and back to the battle field in a short period of time

Didn't Orochimaru and the hokage run to the battle field from Konoha in a really short period of time.

Didn't all the different armies in parts of the frost country all run to narutos location in a few hours (or less)

Eh. But most of these guys aren't average jonin anyways

Lol, people actually use subsonic arguments.

Sonic speed to supersonic

Honestly less retarded than anyone who thinks they're hypersonic+/MHS.

@mcu-defender333: Because we're supposed to believe the words of a nobody on internet forum over the words of the author himself? Lol

@mcu-defender333: Not even close.