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#1 Posted by Soothing_Sounds (2270 posts) - - Show Bio

True Keyblade Master

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Dad of War

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  • All Items, Gear, and abilities
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  • Win By Ko

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#2 Posted by LoveEveryone (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

Sora solos

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#3 Edited by ValorKnight (12412 posts) - - Show Bio

Sora stomps. I honestly don't know why people think that someone who is barely a mid-tier like Kratos can stand up to characters of this level.

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#4 Posted by Soothing_Sounds (2270 posts) - - Show Bio

@valorknight: but kh3 sora is weaker than kh2 Sora. He's only mid tier based off of speed and variety of attacks not really any hax or strength. I'd say with kratos strength advantage and healing factor + hax like slow make this a relatively even fight

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#5 Posted by frostplatinum (422 posts) - - Show Bio

Sora stomps. KH3 had him as powerful as ever.

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#6 Posted by Soothing_Sounds (2270 posts) - - Show Bio

@frostplatinum: no he's not. Kh2 sora has better feats all around and kh3 sora doesn't even know stop or gravity.

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#7 Posted by frostplatinum (422 posts) - - Show Bio

@soothing_sounds: No. KH3 Sora has better feats in every category and scales way above all of his previous renditions anyway. Along with that Sora forgetting stop and gravity doesn’t really matter.

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#8 Posted by Zane240 (545 posts) - - Show Bio

Kratos stomps

He has the ability to slow down time

He can slow time right off the bat and remove soras head

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#9 Posted by Warlockmage (9287 posts) - - Show Bio

Sora fodderizes

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#10 Posted by Scotchbear (2226 posts) - - Show Bio

Sora at the start of the game at his absolute weakest beat a titan

He blinkstomps

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#11 Edited by Soothing_Sounds (2270 posts) - - Show Bio

@frostplatinum: lol. Example? Please? KH2 sora sliced a building apart and batted one away. KH3 Sora has no strength or destructive attack anywhere near. Kh3 sora jumped up onto a small plateau. KH2 sora literally jumped across an entire city and hundreds of feet up. KH2 Sora reflected an omni-directional laser attack. Kh3 sora got swatted away by a single sword from behind. Kh3 Sora is stronger than kh/CoM sora, but not kh2/DDD sora. This is mentioned at the beginning of the game

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#12 Posted by Gamer684 (213 posts) - - Show Bio

Sora FTW

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#13 Posted by frostplatinum (422 posts) - - Show Bio

@soothing_sounds: Are you actually serious? KH3 Sora literally busted an enormous ice meteor in Arendelle. If you downplay that to below building level I don’t know what to tell you honestly. Xemnas did not create any city as I’ve already explained but once again even if I were to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that they were. How is jumping high even useful in a fight? The omni directional laser attack never had a confirmed speed, and it was also with Riku. Even if KH2 Sora did have better feats overall. The scala ad caelum fight was more than enough to prove that KH3 Sora scales above his previous renditions, as I’ve already said. He defeated the god tiers of KH, BBS characters like Master Xehanort and Aqua. More than anything KH2 Sora has done as I’ve already explained so he should naturally be much faster, stronger, etc. And of course beginning of game KH3 Sora wouldn’t be anything special, he was set back to 0 like all the time. But he progressively gets stronger than ever as time goes on like in every main title, strong enough for his previous selves to pretty much be fodder in comparison. I don’t see how this is even a question really.

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#14 Posted by FireStarLord73194 (5283 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah KH3 Sora is stronger than KH2 Sora. Only in the story which makes no sense to begin with was he stated to be weaker but this was before he started trying to get his powers back/before the first world. Ultimate Form sora literally summons like a thousand diamond blades for his finisher. In frozen he busts like a spirit bomb lookin thing. OT he beats Kratos

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#16 Posted by Soothing_Sounds (2270 posts) - - Show Bio

@frostplatinum: deleted post due to spoilers should still be in your notifications.

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#17 Edited by Bossmountain (1105 posts) - - Show Bio

@loveeveryone: @warlockmage: @firestarlord73194:well according to vs wiki https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kratos Krato is low mulitversal with infinte speed. So not even Goku can beat him.

being able to beatinf Zeus proves he had low mulitiversal attack potency as shown here

Loading Video...

His speed likely Infinite since Managed to catch Hermes in combat as shown here.

Loading Video...

This is what Infinite speed looks like,boys and girls.

ps: I'm kidding Sora should stomp

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#18 Edited by LoveEveryone (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@bossmountain: Oh sorry. It’s been at least a year or 2 since I kept track on God Of War. Back then in vsbattle the God Tiers were Multi Continent like Ares. They got a massive upgrade I see.

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#19 Edited by Bossmountain (1105 posts) - - Show Bio

@loveeveryone: yeah they upgraded Kratos though my post was semi sarcastic as I completely disagree with this. Most of the reason behind upgrade is based almost entirely off of lore backed up by little to no actual feats. I mean it's kind of biarraze to really say the Kratos is low multiversal based off lore when even Kratos himself believes most of these Lore are just plain exaggerations.

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#20 Posted by frostplatinum (422 posts) - - Show Bio

@soothing_sounds: Yes I know. But you said Sora has no better destructive feat than slicing a couple buildings in half. That energy attack he did was much more impressive. How casual the feat was doesn't really matter when it completely blows building busting it out of the water, no contest. As for the pride lands feat, maybe it would've been much more impressive if he held off the whole thing, not just one step, but it still doesn't hold a candle to a meteor. How casual it was once again does not really come into play here.

Aqua tangling with Terra-Xehanort and Venitas is far above KH2 Sora's pay grade. And Donald and Goofy... are not high tiers. What are you basing that off of? And yes when it came to beam struggles Sora lost, but not only did he eventually pull through with his own power, but he was also easily cucking Master Xehanort on his own even after being transformed into a heartless. He also finished off armored Xehanort on his own.

Once again I say beginning of game KH3 Sora. He was reset to 0, of course any thought of him returning to previous power levels would seem absurd but he did. Yen Sid was merely saying it was unlikely, not impossible.

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#21 Posted by RandomGuy287 (1134 posts) - - Show Bio

His speed likely Infinite since Managed to catch Hermes in combat as shown here.

Loading Video...

This is what Infinite speed looks like,boys and girls.

lol

btw he kinda predicted Kratos' future

"What has that honor brought you? Nothing but nightmares of your failure"

"Today you may defeat me. But in the end Kratos, you'll betray only yourself"

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#22 Posted by Celebrobtoo (193 posts) - - Show Bio

Kh3 nerfed everyone tbh.

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#23 Posted by Red_Ruby_Petal (8239 posts) - - Show Bio

I find it strange that Sora finds himself being another tier as a character

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#24 Edited by Soothing_Sounds (2270 posts) - - Show Bio

@frostplatinum: fair enough. I guess what I meant is KH2 sora has better striking than KH3 Sora. That being said. The technique sora used against the meteor is inapplicable to one on one fights or even team fights. It's not made for combat unless destroying something in a similar fashion.

I dont think either of those guys have the same capabilities as the enemies Sora beat. Lingering will beat terra Xehanort and sora stalemated him. And besides scaling, aqua doesn't have physical feats on par with Sora.

Goofy perfectly countered terra Xehanort and Donald one shot him. They're not god tier like KH Master Xehanort or KH Xemnas. But they've shown to be able to compete with high tiers like Sora, Riku, King Mickey, etc. This shouldn't be surprising they're high commanders in Mickey's army who've been growing along Sora without being canonly nerfed once. And he fought all forms of Xehanort with them at his side.

It didn't seem like he did... definitely not physically. He grew in techniques only. Not physical power.

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#25 Posted by CarmineDcMarvel (327 posts) - - Show Bio

Sora shitstomps.

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#26 Posted by InfinteGod12 (210 posts) - - Show Bio

Sora shit stomps, he is at his best at 3.

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#27 Edited by frostplatinum (422 posts) - - Show Bio

@soothing_sounds: Maybe not KH3 Sora. But KH2 Sora she is way above. BBS characters are vastly above KH2 characters from KH2FM's statement about the Lingering Will, and Xigbar's statement to Sora before their fight in TWTNW. KH3 also stated base Master Xehanort as the most powerful keyblade wielder of them all.

I figured that's what you were referring to. I would consider them at higher tiers from that if it didn't drain everything out of Donald to beat Terranort. To say he one shot him makes it sound like a stomp on Donald's part but the full effect of the blast actually took a little while to finish off Terranort, for the first few seconds it was just blowing him back. Case in point, they were not competing.

Sora scales above all of his previous renditions, if not with his Master Xehanort feat then definitely with his Aqua feat.

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#28 Posted by Soothing_Sounds (2270 posts) - - Show Bio

@frostplatinum: by actual feats. Not scaling and statements. Kh2 sora is far above both aqua and kh3 sora. Kh statements make no sense. You just said kh3 mentions base xehanort as the strongest keyblade wielder... but terra beat him outright. Then after acquiring a youthful body, lingering will beat him. Then aqua beat him again. You cant be serious in using statements and scaling from statements to make your point about kh3 sora being stronger. That sort of stuff only really applies inverse.

Donald still one shot him and survived. Ergo he's on their level... that's pretty clear cut. Goofy also parried and terranott off his feet. Again... pretty clear cut... dont know how there's any debate about this.

Again beating Aqua doesn't mean much except inverse. And sora acquired different abilities that could've been crucial in beating aqua, not his actual stats. Those techniques will not be as beneficial as beating someone out of verse

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#29 Posted by frostplatinum (422 posts) - - Show Bio

@soothing_sounds said:

@frostplatinum: by actual feats. Not scaling and statements. Kh2 sora is far above both aqua and kh3 sora. Kh statements make no sense. You just said kh3 mentions base xehanort as the strongest keyblade wielder... but terra beat him outright. Then after acquiring a youthful body, lingering will beat him. Then aqua beat him again. You cant be serious in using statements and scaling from statements to make your point about kh3 sora being stronger. That sort of stuff only really applies inverse.

Donald still one shot him and survived. Ergo he's on their level... that's pretty clear cut. Goofy also parried and terranott off his feet. Again... pretty clear cut... dont know how there's any debate about this.

Again beating Aqua doesn't mean much except inverse. And sora acquired different abilities that could've been crucial in beating aqua, not his actual stats. Those techniques will not be as beneficial as beating someone out of verse

Master Xehanort was trying to possess Terra, not beat him, that's likely why he was trying to have Vanitas do his dirty work first. And after Terra beat MX 1v1, he stated that only then had he truly won, hence finding an opening to use Terra as a vessel. But besides, even if Terra did outright beat him, we can see from KH3's statement that he's gotten stronger. Same goes for Aqua and the Lingering Will. I am quite serious in using statements. Because if we were to go by feats for every single thing, Zeus would be the most powerful KH character to date. Statements keep scaling consistent, and this does not apply to just the KH verse.

Donald was literally unconscious on the floor right after the blast went out. There's not much evidence to suggest that he survived that. The blast itself was impressive but still not enough to put him at a high tier. As for Goofy... the same sort of thing happened, just to a lesser extent. He didn't just shrug off Terranort's slash like it was nothing. He flew back also. That makes two of us though, I don't know how there is a debate about this.

No. First of all the fight was all in gameplay, so however the player decided to take out Aqua was completely on them. We did not see what Sora used in canon to beat Aqua. Secondly, what abilities would you be referring to? Because like you said Sora didn't really acquire anything too notable in 3, just more destructive attacks. And if he didn't have the physical stats to compete with Aqua he would have gotten stomped either way. By that logic I could say Sora beats people like Goku. Aside from all that... what do outside verses have to do with this?

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#30 Edited by Soothing_Sounds (2270 posts) - - Show Bio

@frostplatinum said:

Master Xehanort was trying to possess Terra, not beat him, that's likely why he was trying to have Vanitas do his dirty work first. And after Terra beat MX 1v1, he stated that only then had he truly won, hence finding an opening to use Terra as a vessel. But besides, even if Terra did outright beat him, we can see from KH3's statement that he's gotten stronger. Same goes for Aqua and the Lingering Will. I am quite serious in using statements. Because if we were to go by feats for every single thing, Zeus would be the most powerful KH character to date. Statements keep scaling consistent, and this does not apply to just the KH verse.

Donald was literally unconscious on the floor right after the blast went out. There's not much evidence to suggest that he survived that. The blast itself was impressive but still not enough to put him at a high tier. As for Goofy... the same sort of thing happened, just to a lesser extent. He didn't just shrug off Terranort's slash like it was nothing. He flew back also. That makes two of us though, I don't know how there is a debate about this.

Master Xehanort did not get stronger. He specifically wanted terra's vessel at the time because his body had become frail and weakened. Why couldn't Zeus be the strongest character in Kingdom Hearts? He's the King of Gods? Sully, a standard disney character, manhandled Vanitas. The current Tutor all keyblade wielders, is Yen sid, a mere Wizard. Being a Disney character doesn't discount how strong you can be in the Kingdom Hearts Verse. The statements in Kingdom Hearts and even the Lore do not keep things consistent at all. Master Xehanort had 12 powers added on top of his and overcome by Sora, Donald, and goofy in a beam struggle, The latter of which you think being weaker than high tier. In fact I'm pretty sure KH3 just said screw consistency.

There's a statement from Riku right afterwards expressing how Donald still has heart. He was just Ko'd. It killed, what is in you opinion(and my opinion as well), a high tier. One shot him. Something no other character has done. Nobody is saying Goofy straight up overwhelmed Terranort. Being on par with Terranort should be enough to say he's high tier. I don't know why you don't think these two are comparable to Sora, when alone Sora only did this.

Deflecting Sora's finisher with a casual wave of his hand, no spell, no keyblade, no nothing
Deflecting Sora's finisher with a casual wave of his hand, no spell, no keyblade, no nothing

To having Goofy and Donald By his side and doing this.

Overpowering Xehanort in a Beam Struggle
Overpowering Xehanort in a Beam Struggle

That's not merely a 3x difference. Waving off an attack with a casual wave to getting your own attack overwhelmed is a massive difference in strength. Part of it again, due to Sora having this ability to both draw upon and amplify his friends power, but i doubt two mid-tiers like KH2 organization members could've replicated it. Again this shouldn't be unbelievable, Goofy and Donald have been by Sora's side since game 1, were already high commanders in King Mickey's army, and haven't been nerfed once.

No. First of all the fight was all in gameplay, so however the player decided to take out Aqua was completely on them. We did not see what Sora used in canon to beat Aqua. Secondly, what abilities would you be referring to? Because like you said Sora didn't really acquire anything too notable in 3, just more destructive attacks. And if he didn't have the physical stats to compete with Aqua he would have gotten stomped either way. By that logic I could say Sora beats people like Goku. Aside from all that... what do outside verses have to do with this?

How about the ability to alter keyblade forms, how bout that random energy attack seen in Frozen, how bout shotlock and airstep? And yeah Sora does have physical stats to compare to Aqua. Aqua was never physically as impressive as KH2 Sora. Even if you were to say Aqua was more powerful due to offhand pause screen statements(which she's not) There could be multiple reasons for that. She has more magical capability, she has a superior keyblade, etc etc. KH is not like Dragonball where you can scale almost all forms of stats using powerlevels. I would say Mickey is physically weaker than KH2 Sora, but still overall more powerful due to knowing Holy, Stopza, and Ultima. However when it comes to KH2 Sora vs KH 3 Sora, Kh2 Sora could blitz and knock KH3 Sora all over the place due to superior speed, agility, and striking power and KH3 Sora would have no counter due to not even knowing slow or gravity to slow him down. He has different Keyblade forms, which KH2 Sora already countered in better quality against Lingering will.

Outside verse matter because we're on the battle forums, where outside and inside verse can compete, and Kingdom Hearts especially being a series where it's characters are used against others from other verse. Case in point this battle. KH2 Sora has the feats to blitz and knock around all version of Kratos. Meanwhile KH3 Sora has a speed advantage and offensive magical versatility on Kratos, but Kratos already had a lifting strength advantage over both Sora's, but much more so KH3 Sora than KH2 Sora, etc etc.

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#31 Edited by TheSerbianEmpire (1236 posts) - - Show Bio

One thing I'm curious of is how powerful was the giants ice breath in the end of the game, considering in lore Thamur in practicular can uproot entire patches of trees, and create crevices by yelling, and his son can crack ice lakes and create new ones by yelling.

But than a gain a deliberate breath of ice isnt the same as the giants simply yelling in anger.

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#32 Posted by frostplatinum (422 posts) - - Show Bio

@soothing_sounds said:

Master Xehanort did not get stronger. He specifically wanted terra's vessel at the time because his body had become frail and weakened. Why couldn't Zeus be the strongest character in Kingdom Hearts? He's the King of Gods? Sully, a standard disney character, manhandled Vanitas. The current Tutor all keyblade wielders, is Yen sid, a mere Wizard. Being a Disney character doesn't discount how strong you can be in the Kingdom Hearts Verse. The statements in Kingdom Hearts and even the Lore do not keep things consistent at all. Master Xehanort had 12 powers added on top of his and overcome by Sora, Donald, and goofy in a beam struggle, The latter of which you think being weaker than high tier. In fact I'm pretty sure KH3 just said screw consistency.

There's a statement from Riku right afterwards expressing how Donald still has heart. He was just Ko'd. It killed, what is in you opinion(and my opinion as well), a high tier. One shot him. Something no other character has done. Nobody is saying Goofy straight up overwhelmed Terranort. Being on par with Terranort should be enough to say he's high tier. I don't know why you don't think these two are comparable to Sora, when alone Sora only did this.

Deflecting Sora's finisher with a casual wave of his hand, no spell, no keyblade, no nothing
Deflecting Sora's finisher with a casual wave of his hand, no spell, no keyblade, no nothing

To having Goofy and Donald By his side and doing this.

Overpowering Xehanort in a Beam Struggle
Overpowering Xehanort in a Beam Struggle

That's not merely a 3x difference. Waving off an attack with a casual wave to getting your own attack overwhelmed is a massive difference in strength. Part of it again, due to Sora having this ability to both draw upon and amplify his friends power, but i doubt two mid-tiers like KH2 organization members could've replicated it. Again this shouldn't be unbelievable, Goofy and Donald have been by Sora's side since game 1, were already high commanders in King Mickey's army, and haven't been nerfed once.

No. First of all the fight was all in gameplay, so however the player decided to take out Aqua was completely on them. We did not see what Sora used in canon to beat Aqua. Secondly, what abilities would you be referring to? Because like you said Sora didn't really acquire anything too notable in 3, just more destructive attacks. And if he didn't have the physical stats to compete with Aqua he would have gotten stomped either way. By that logic I could say Sora beats people like Goku. Aside from all that... what do outside verses have to do with this?

How about the ability to alter keyblade forms, how bout that random energy attack seen in Frozen, how bout shotlock and airstep? And yeah Sora does have physical stats to compare to Aqua. Aqua was never physically as impressive as KH2 Sora. Even if you were to say Aqua was more powerful due to offhand pause screen statements(which she's not) There could be multiple reasons for that. She has more magical capability, she has a superior keyblade, etc etc. KH is not like Dragonball where you can scale almost all forms of stats using powerlevels. I would say Mickey is physically weaker than KH2 Sora, but still overall more powerful due to knowing Holy, Stopza, and Ultima. However when it comes to KH2 Sora vs KH 3 Sora, Kh2 Sora could blitz and knock KH3 Sora all over the place due to superior speed, agility, and striking power and KH3 Sora would have no counter due to not even knowing slow or gravity to slow him down. He has different Keyblade forms, which KH2 Sora already countered in better quality against Lingering will.

Outside verse matter because we're on the battle forums, where outside and inside verse can compete, and Kingdom Hearts especially being a series where it's characters are used against others from other verse. Case in point this battle. KH2 Sora has the feats to blitz and knock around all version of Kratos. Meanwhile KH3 Sora has a speed advantage and offensive magical versatility on Kratos, but Kratos already had a lifting strength advantage over both Sora's, but much more so KH3 Sora than KH2 Sora, etc etc.

What do you have to back Xehanort not getting stronger? Zeus is not the most powerful Kingdom Hearts character for a couple reasons. Firstly in KH3 he was no diffed by Hades, of whomst Sora has taken out multiple times, on his own iirc. And there's KH Xemnas who was said by Nomura to be the most powerful KH character by the time that KH2 came out. Mind you this is the same game where Zeus has the feat of rearranging many planets to be in the shape of Sora, Donald, and Goofy, which is why he's even in this conversation of being the strongest KH character, or at least why I brought him up. Being the king of anything is not really all that impressive. The fact that he rules over gods changes nothing, being a god in fiction doesn't determine how powerful you are. And even if the gods he ruled over were impressive, being their king doesn't mean that you're more powerful then they are. And as for Sulley "manhandling" Vanitas... What are you trying to say with that? Vanitas and Sulley are on the same tier? But, can't Vanitas take many hits from the keyblade? Isn't that PIS? What differs that from Xaldin getting noticeably damaged by Belle elbowing him? I never said being a Disney character makes you weaker. But the ones you are trying to argue for, actually are weaker. And yes it made no sense how Sora, Donald, and Goofy were able to overpower Xehanort, but that's pretty much just another case of the protagonist being as strong as the plot needs him to be. Kingdom Hearts has thrown consistency out the window since KH2.

...What? Weren't you just saying statements in Kingdom Hearts make no sense? Why does Riku's statement get a pass? And considering how Sora flipped out when everyone else was gone, Riku could've just been saying that to keep Sora's morale high. And that is not really on par with Terranort. You said Goofy straight up parried Terranort off his feet without including that he flew back off his feet too. That would sound like overwhelming if I didn't know better. And the key beam thing was not really all that substantial when it was so vague. For all we know Sora could have just needed a tiny bit more power to overwhelm Xehanort, and that's what Donald and Goofy gave. Basically it's just not all that when we have no idea how much more powerful Donald and Goofy made Sora's key beam. So to assume from it that they are top tiers is headcanon. I am having a hard time accepting Donald and Goofy as high tiers when there's just so much of a difference between a keyblade user's power and a non keyblade user's power. Yes Donald and Goofy were very high ranked in King Mickey's army before they met Sora, but that didn't stop them from getting one shotted by some fodder heartless in Traverse Town, and Dark Riku/Ansem who had only very recently acquired a keyblade OHKOing Donald before his fight with Sora. And would you say that there was ever a time where Donald and Goofy were legitimately stronger than any end of game Sora? Because Sora getting nerfed back to 0 in every game but still ending up as more powerful than Donald and Goofy by the end should speak for itself.

I know of KH3 Sora's abilities. What I was saying though, was that we as the players did not ever see what Sora used on Aqua to defeat her. It is all up to the player, whichever way they decide to execute it. We likely will never know what Sora used in canon to subdue Aqua. And yes I know Sora has the physical stats to compete with Aqua. I said if he didn't, he would have lost the fight. As a response to you saying Sora acquired abilities imperative to beating Aqua, and that he didn't need his physical stats. And even if Aqua did have a better magic arsenal, superior keyblade, etc, none of it likely would've mattered if she didn't have the physical stats to compete, which were above Sora and Riku's up until KH3. Otherwise she would've gotten blitzed and one shotted as that's in character for both Sora and Riku to do. And that is why I say KH3 Sora scales above his previous renditions, including KH2, meaning that he scales to have better striking power, speed, and agility, there does not always have to be feats to decide these things. And the hax argument, e.g slow and gravity, really does not matter as I've already said, because if it did I could easily say KH1 Sora > everybody, along with other much weaker renditions like DDD and CoM. Hell I could even say fodder unversed from BBS > KH3 Sora because they can stop time and he can't. And how are the Lingering Will's keyblade transformations better than Sora's?

I get that, but we stopped talking about KH vs. outside verses a long time ago. In fact I don't think we were ever talking about the actual subject of Sora vs Kratos, just Sora being as powerful as ever in KH3.

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#33 Edited by InfinteGod12 (210 posts) - - Show Bio

@soothing_sounds: I agree with the pis Sora, Donald, and Goofy did that overpowered an X-Blade user who basically can alter/change reality in a beam struggle, yes i think it's ridiculous to, but I think Sora (kh2) can't beat Sora from kh3. We all know old Sora exhibit excellent and badass feats that'll overpower new Sora interesting feat, but abilities, speed, everything else overall, New Sora have the edge by far. Y Sora can use Flowmotion, thus granting him better agility or mobility, and greatly improved his acrobatic stats. cast more advanced spells such as Thunderza, Fireza, Waterza, etc. He now can do shotlocks which is one of the newest things he ever can do. You're stating Kh2 Sora is faster, forgotten Sora in kh3 got something called Air Step? a move where Sora can move to another area instantly, like an advance movement of flow motion. Sora may or may not sync blade in 3 as he did then, but now he can switches 3 keyblades apart along each having a unique transformation, granting Sora more versatile in forms. Freely shifting keyblades and their forms can be more favorable than the Drive forms at 2 beside's limited form choices he or players have to choose. Sora also can continue combos much longer now seeing now he can switch keyblades to extend the chain, base or forms. The only thing I can see kh2 Sora have better is defensive magic, Refelctga, and Magentga (Although, Waterga and Aeroga are fine replacements as they show familiar effects, water magic can protect Sora before launching at foe's and Aero can suck anyone inside for a short period of time while receiving decent damage before abolishing.) and reaction command. Kh3 Sora wrecks.

Edit: I just realized you mention Sora new powers on your last post, lol. Oh well, still posting my statement. i also agree on frostplatinum post.

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#34 Edited by InfinteGod12 (210 posts) - - Show Bio

That made me wonder. Do Sora still have all his magic from previous games including DDD and COM cannonically? if so he stomps kh2 Sora and Kratos much worse, adding drive forms would be a mismatch.

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#35 Posted by StrongerThanRin (446 posts) - - Show Bio

Kratos solos

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#36 Posted by Soothing_Sounds (2270 posts) - - Show Bio

@soothing_sounds said:

What do you have to back Xehanort not getting stronger? Zeus is not the most powerful Kingdom Hearts character for a couple reasons. Firstly in KH3 he was no diffed by Hades, of whomst Sora has taken out multiple times, on his own iirc. And there's KH Xemnas who was said by Nomura to be the most powerful KH character by the time that KH2 came out. Mind you this is the same game where Zeus has the feat of rearranging many planets to be in the shape of Sora, Donald, and Goofy, which is why he's even in this conversation of being the strongest KH character, or at least why I brought him up. Being the king of anything is not really all that impressive. The fact that he rules over gods changes nothing, being a god in fiction doesn't determine how powerful you are. And even if the gods he ruled over were impressive, being their king doesn't mean that you're more powerful then they are. And as for Sulley "manhandling" Vanitas... What are you trying to say with that? Vanitas and Sulley are on the same tier? But, can't Vanitas take many hits from the keyblade? Isn't that PIS? What differs that from Xaldin getting noticeably damaged by Belle elbowing him? I never said being a Disney character makes you weaker. But the ones you are trying to argue for, actually are weaker. And yes it made no sense how Sora, Donald, and Goofy were able to overpower Xehanort, but that's pretty much just another case of the protagonist being as strong as the plot needs him to be. Kingdom Hearts has thrown consistency out the window since KH2.

We're only having this discussion because, and I quote, literally,

Statements keep scaling consistent, and this does not apply to just the KH verse.

If Kingdom Hearts isn't even a consistency based verse. Then this discussion is meaningless... and again, we're stuck going based off of feats.

...What? Weren't you just saying statements in Kingdom Hearts make no sense? Why does Riku's statement get a pass? And considering how Sora flipped out when everyone else was gone, Riku could've just been saying that to keep Sora's morale high. And that is not really on par with Terranort. You said Goofy straight up parried Terranort off his feet without including that he flew back off his feet too. That would sound like overwhelming if I didn't know better.. So to assume from it that they are top tiers is headcanon. I am having a hard time accepting Donald and Goofy as high tiers when there's just so much of a difference between a keyblade user's power and a non keyblade user's power. Yes Donald and Goofy were very high ranked in King Mickey's army before they met Sora, but that didn't stop them from getting one shotted by some fodder heartless in Traverse Town, and Dark Riku/Ansem who had only very recently acquired a keyblade OHKOing Donald before his fight with Sora. And would you say that there was ever a time where Donald and Goofy were legitimately stronger than any end of game Sora? Because Sora getting nerfed back to 0 in every game but still ending up as more powerful than Donald and Goofy by the end should speak for itself.

You were talking about statements being used as an indication of power levels, and thus as a means of scaling. Riku was just stating a matter of fact. There's a pretty obvious difference. You thinking he said it just to keep Sora's morale high is headcanon. Goofy deflected Terranort... Idk what else to say to the fact, yes he bounced back as well... but I don't see how that would mean Terranort was stronger in anyway... can you actually explain how that makes Terranort stronger? Donald one shot him. These are facts. They're high tiers. I'm sorry it's hard for you to accept.

And the key beam thing was not really all that substantial when it was so vague. For all we know Sora could have just needed a tiny bit more power to overwhelm Xehanort, and that's what Donald and Goofy gave. Basically it's just not all that when we have no idea how much more powerful Donald and Goofy made Sora's key beam

Lol. It wasn't vague at all. Again Xehanort USED HIS HAND to deflect it. And then had his OWN BEAM BACKED BY KINGDOM HEARTS overwhelmed. That's not a tiny difference. That's multitudes of difference in strength. What you're saying might make sense if the Trinity Limit had overcome Master Xehanort's hand deflection but it completely overwhelmed his attack as well. It might make sense if Sora had just lost a beam struggle on his own, but he didn't lose a beam struggle, his finisher got shrugged off with a wave. You keep ignoring this part and making it seem like Sora lost a beam struggle barely... he didn't. He was overwhelmed by Master Xehnaort's bare hand. Again, not a spell, not a keyblade, not a beam... his hand. Then the three of them overwhelmed His Beam. It's a major difference in strength.

I know of KH3 Sora's abilities. What I was saying though, was that we as the players did not ever see what Sora used on Aqua to defeat her. It is all up to the player, whichever way they decide to execute it. We likely will never know what Sora used in canon to subdue Aqua. And yes I know Sora has the physical stats to compete with Aqua. I said if he didn't, he would have lost the fight. As a response to you saying Sora acquired abilities imperative to beating Aqua, and that he didn't need his physical stats. And even if Aqua did have a better magic arsenal, superior keyblade, etc, none of it likely would've mattered if she didn't have the physical stats to compete, which were above Sora and Riku's up until KH3. Otherwise she would've gotten blitzed and one shotted as that's in character for both Sora and Riku to do. And that is why I say KH3 Sora scales above his previous renditions, including KH2, meaning that he scales to have better striking power, speed, and agility, there does not always have to be feats to decide these things. And the hax argument, e.g slow and gravity, really does not matter as I've already said, because if it did I could easily say KH1 Sora > everybody, along with other much weaker renditions like DDD and CoM. Hell I could even say fodder unversed from BBS > KH3 Sora because they can stop time and he can't. And how are the Lingering Will's keyblade transformations better than Sora's?

What aren't you getting from my argument? Aqua was never physically on par with KH2 Sora. Sora couldn't blitz her because he's not as strong as his KH2 self. And Riku never fought Aqua to ever have a chance to blitz. She hid behind a demon tower and then tried to blitz him from behind only for him to still casually react. KH1 Sora also isn't as fast as KH2 Sora. DDD Sora is the current peak Sora. That's KH2 Sora with Stop spell and flowmotion. Lingering Will's transformation aren't exactly better, but he has more of them for one keyblade... so. We need feats to know how strong these guys are... otherwise we don't know. This is simple. Now if Aqua would've fought Riku... that would've been a legit method of scaling as Riku hasn't been nerfed... but she didn't she essentially ran from him and tried to cheap shot him from behind.

@soothing_sounds:but I think Sora (kh2) can't beat Sora from kh3. We all know old Sora exhibit excellent and badass feats that'll overpower new Sora interesting feat, but abilities, speed, everything else overall, New Sora have the edge by far. Y Sora can use Flowmotion, thus granting him better agility or mobility, and greatly improved his acrobatic stats. cast more advanced spells such as Thunderza, Fireza, Waterza, etc. He now can do shotlocks which is one of the newest things he ever can do. You're stating Kh2 Sora is faster, forgotten Sora in kh3 got something called Air Step?

Show Me KH3 sora displaying better agility and mobility than this.

No Caption Provided

Show me a single feat of Airstep replicating a speed like this where Sora crosses a hundred or so feet, slashing walls as he does in a mere second.

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You must be forgetting Sora's been moving at these speeds for a while now, it's just now the player has more control, but Sora has less power and speed.

I agree with the pis Sora, Donald, and Goofy did that overpowered an X-Blade user who basically can alter/change reality in a beam struggle, yes i think it's ridiculous to,

That's not ridiculous. Sora's greatest power as stated multiple times is his ability to connect with other and enhance both his and their powers to unquantitative levels. It's exemplified even more in KH3 than any other game, where he literally calls upon the power of hundreds of past keyblade wielders and is capable of bringing people back to life. Where as KH2 main point was discussing the power of the Keyblade.

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#37 Posted by frostplatinum (422 posts) - - Show Bio

@soothing_sounds said:

We're only having this discussion because, and I quote, literally,

Statements keep scaling consistent, and this does not apply to just the KH verse.

If Kingdom Hearts isn't even a consistency based verse. Then this discussion is meaningless... and again, we're stuck going based off of feats.

@frostplatinum said:

...What? Weren't you just saying statements in Kingdom Hearts make no sense? Why does Riku's statement get a pass? And considering how Sora flipped out when everyone else was gone, Riku could've just been saying that to keep Sora's morale high. And that is not really on par with Terranort. You said Goofy straight up parried Terranort off his feet without including that he flew back off his feet too. That would sound like overwhelming if I didn't know better.. So to assume from it that they are top tiers is headcanon. I am having a hard time accepting Donald and Goofy as high tiers when there's just so much of a difference between a keyblade user's power and a non keyblade user's power. Yes Donald and Goofy were very high ranked in King Mickey's army before they met Sora, but that didn't stop them from getting one shotted by some fodder heartless in Traverse Town, and Dark Riku/Ansem who had only very recently acquired a keyblade OHKOing Donald before his fight with Sora. And would you say that there was ever a time where Donald and Goofy were legitimately stronger than any end of game Sora? Because Sora getting nerfed back to 0 in every game but still ending up as more powerful than Donald and Goofy by the end should speak for itself.

You were talking about statements being used as an indication of power levels, and thus as a means of scaling. Riku was just stating a matter of fact. There's a pretty obvious difference. You thinking he said it just to keep Sora's morale high is headcanon. Goofy deflected Terranort... Idk what else to say to the fact, yes he bounced back as well... but I don't see how that would mean Terranort was stronger in anyway... can you actually explain how that makes Terranort stronger? Donald one shot him. These are facts. They're high tiers. I'm sorry it's hard for you to accept.

And the key beam thing was not really all that substantial when it was so vague. For all we know Sora could have just needed a tiny bit more power to overwhelm Xehanort, and that's what Donald and Goofy gave. Basically it's just not all that when we have no idea how much more powerful Donald and Goofy made Sora's key beam

Lol. It wasn't vague at all. Again Xehanort USED HIS HAND to deflect it. And then had his OWN BEAM BACKED BY KINGDOM HEARTS overwhelmed. That's not a tiny difference. That's multitudes of difference in strength. What you're saying might make sense if the Trinity Limit had overcome Master Xehanort's hand deflection but it completely overwhelmed his attack as well. It might make sense if Sora had just lost a beam struggle on his own, but he didn't lose a beam struggle, his finisher got shrugged off with a wave. You keep ignoring this part and making it seem like Sora lost a beam struggle barely... he didn't. He was overwhelmed by Master Xehnaort's bare hand. Again, not a spell, not a keyblade, not a beam... his hand. Then the three of them overwhelmed His Beam. It's a major difference in strength.

I know of KH3 Sora's abilities. What I was saying though, was that we as the players did not ever see what Sora used on Aqua to defeat her. It is all up to the player, whichever way they decide to execute it. We likely will never know what Sora used in canon to subdue Aqua. And yes I know Sora has the physical stats to compete with Aqua. I said if he didn't, he would have lost the fight. As a response to you saying Sora acquired abilities imperative to beating Aqua, and that he didn't need his physical stats. And even if Aqua did have a better magic arsenal, superior keyblade, etc, none of it likely would've mattered if she didn't have the physical stats to compete, which were above Sora and Riku's up until KH3. Otherwise she would've gotten blitzed and one shotted as that's in character for both Sora and Riku to do. And that is why I say KH3 Sora scales above his previous renditions, including KH2, meaning that he scales to have better striking power, speed, and agility, there does not always have to be feats to decide these things. And the hax argument, e.g slow and gravity, really does not matter as I've already said, because if it did I could easily say KH1 Sora > everybody, along with other much weaker renditions like DDD and CoM. Hell I could even say fodder unversed from BBS > KH3 Sora because they can stop time and he can't. And how are the Lingering Will's keyblade transformations better than Sora's?

What aren't you getting from my argument? Aqua was never physically on par with KH2 Sora. Sora couldn't blitz her because he's not as strong as his KH2 self. And Riku never fought Aqua to ever have a chance to blitz. She hid behind a demon tower and then tried to blitz him from behind only for him to still casually react. KH1 Sora also isn't as fast as KH2 Sora. DDD Sora is the current peak Sora. That's KH2 Sora with Stop spell and flowmotion. Lingering Will's transformation aren't exactly better, but he has more of them for one keyblade... so. We need feats to know how strong these guys are... otherwise we don't know. This is simple. Now if Aqua would've fought Riku... that would've been a legit method of scaling as Riku hasn't been nerfed... but she didn't she essentially ran from him and tried to cheap shot him from behind.

I was talking about consistency from feats only, not statements also because of reasons given above which you ignored. And "we" are not stuck going based off of feats, you are, which once again is still a fallacy in and of itself. If you think it's meaningless, I'm sorry to hear that, you dragged yourself into this.

No. Riku had no way of knowing if Donald's heart was still there or not. And it's not headcanon, it's supported by Sora gazing off into the demon tide pensively after Donald fell, and Riku saying other things obviously to comfort him like "pull it together" and "we have to protect them." And once again I say considering how Sora literally got on his knees and started screaming and crying when everybody else was gone, there was a good chance that Riku was saying that so that wouldn't have happened. This isn't the first time Sora has almost broken down and he needed Riku to encourage him. And if you seriously still don't see the flaw in Goofy flying back also when clashing with Terranort, I don't know what to tell you. It is a major outlier on both Donald and Goofy's parts even if their feats here were as impressive as you are trying to make them sound. It's not what makes Terranort stronger, it's what makes Donald and Goofy weaker. Do you have anything to actually debunk what I've said on keyblade wielders objectively always being the stronger ones? You literally quoted it yourself and then ignored it.

Sure it's a major difference in strength if we go off of assumptions but in reality it is quite vague, you explained why yourself. Sora, Donald, and Goofy's key beam never made contact with Xehanort's hand. Sora's key beam alone never made contact with Xehanort's key beam. Xehanort's key beam being backed by KH does not really mean anything when he himself was also backed by KH. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I am not "ignoring" anything, I'm just not going off of assumptions. What you are saying is that if Sora used his own key beam against Master Xehanort's, it probably would have gotten overpowered. And that if Sora, Donald, and Goofy used their key beam (which has no power boost that's ever been stated/implied/shown on screen) against Master Xehanort's hand, it probably would have overpowered him. Please think about that and some possible ways you could have messed up your scaling in the slightest, and then come back to me.

...We, as the players, will never know what was used in canon to beat Aqua. It's available in the boss fight itself to blitz Aqua, but we don't know if he did it in canon or not, so to once again to assume that he couldn't is headcanon. And also, once again, BBS characters are above KH2 characters, there doesn't need to be feats for everything as I've already said and explained multiple times. DDD Sora is just like all the other versions of Sora seeing as how he was reset to 0 by Yen Sid. And by your logic, he's weaker than KH2 Sora.

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#38 Posted by JackKira89 (538 posts) - - Show Bio

all gear.... Ultima keyblade is HAX! It is gg Kratos

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#39 Edited by InfinteGod12 (210 posts) - - Show Bio

@soothing_sounds: Ok, I'll give you a feat that probably better than the first one, not so sure about the second one.

No Caption Provided

<Sora instantaneously travels to multiple heartless while demonstrating better agility and mobility, did I forgot to mention that time was frozen when he performs them?

No Caption Provided

With Marshmallow help to hold the tremendous ball, Sora eradicates it! If you measure the skyscraper's kh2 Sora slice through, that ball is much bigger!! Saying this Sora is weaker in strength is bullshit, he destroyed something that made skyscraper fodder in comparison.

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#40 Posted by Soothing_Sounds (2270 posts) - - Show Bio

@soothing_sounds said:

I was talking about consistency from feats only, not statements also because of reasons given above which you ignored. And "we" are not stuck going based off of feats, you are, which once again is still a fallacy in and of itself. If you think it's meaningless, I'm sorry to hear that, you dragged yourself into this.

I hear what you're saying. I'd like to redraw the statement of Kingdom Hearts being inconsistent and I'll address your points. However I still don't think Statements keep things consistent, and in fact add inconsistencies. Zeus moving planets is an impressive feat of Tk and even if Xemnas is stronger than him due to the word of God... if anything this only further proves my point about characters being stronger than one another due to different reasons. This wouldn't mean Aqua has the stats of KH2 Sora and that we can scale KH3 Sora to having the stats of KH2 Sora. Zeus has superior TK. By feats. Easy. No Dispute. Xemnas however is a reality warper. See how two crucial different abilities can make two characters strong in different ways. That being said, Hades didn't defeat Zeus. That was a combination of the titans. KH3 worlds follow the story's of their respective franchise nearly to a T. The fight between Zeus and the Titans happens offscreen in the game IIRC, but the movie depicts Hades utilizing the four Titans to actually defeat Zeus, not he Himself.

No. Riku had no way of knowing if Donald's heart was still there or not. And it's not headcanon, it's supported by Sora gazing off into the demon tide pensively after Donald fell, and Riku saying other things obviously to comfort him like "pull it together" and "we have to protect them." And once again I say considering how Sora literally got on his knees and started screaming and crying when everybody else was gone, there was a good chance that Riku was saying that so that wouldn't have happened. This isn't the first time Sora has almost broken down and he needed Riku to encourage him.

Keyblade wielders can feel hearts and the connections between hearts. This is noted multiple times by multiple keyblade wielders throughout the series. It is headcanon... You don't know what Riku is thinking for what reasons at any given time, ever. It's all in your head. Yes Riku is obviously giving him motivation, but because he was scared, or concerned, or anything really. If Donald would've lost his heart, Sora would've instantly known. He knew Elsa had struck Anna in the heart and he barely knew the two of them

And if you seriously still don't see the flaw in Goofy flying back also when clashing with Terranort, I don't know what to tell you. It is a major outlier on both Donald and Goofy's parts even if their feats here were as impressive as you are trying to make them sound. It's not what makes Terranort stronger, it's what makes Donald and Goofy weaker. Do you have anything to actually debunk what I've said on keyblade wielders objectively always being the stronger ones? You literally quoted it yourself and then ignored it.

Um how bout the feat of Donald one shotting a keyblade wielder? Goofy Blocking another? Goofy Blocking Riku?

No Caption Provided

There is no objectivity to it. The keyblade is the strongest weapon in the game, sans the x-blade. Unless there's a direct statement saying all keyblade wielders are stronger than all non keyblade wielders I don't know how that could be an objective statement. Especially when there are feats to the contrary.

Sure it's a major difference in strength if we go off of assumptions but in reality it is quite vague, you explained why yourself. Sora, Donald, and Goofy's key beam never made contact with Xehanort's hand. Sora's key beam alone never made contact with Xehanort's key beam. Xehanort's key beam being backed by KH does not really mean anything when he himself was also backed by KH. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I am not "ignoring" anything, I'm just not going off of assumptions.

Master Xehanort wasn't backed by Kingdom Hearts. He was just utilizing it's power. He had the X-blade and the 12 members + Kairi to amp him.

What you are saying is that if Sora used his own key beam against Master Xehanort's, it probably would have gotten overpowered. And that if Sora, Donald, and Goofy used their key beam (which has no power boost that's ever been stated/implied/shown on screen) against Master Xehanort's hand, it probably would have overpowered him. Please think about that and some possible ways you could have messed up your scaling in the slightest, and then come back to me.

Unless you think Master Xehanort's hand wave is weaker than his beam attack... I really don't see the problem here.

...We, as the players, will never know what was used in canon to beat Aqua. It's available in the boss fight itself to blitz Aqua, but we don't know if he did it in canon or not, so to once again to assume that he couldn't is headcanon. And also, once again, BBS characters are above KH2 characters, there doesn't need to be feats for everything as I've already said and explained multiple times.

If he did blitz her... he's faster than Aqua. The point I'm making is... there's no reason to think BBS characters are stronger in the first place. Again, at least not physically. A very important set of stats. BBS keyblade wielders can make barriers to have fights in... that's something Sora can't do. They can D-Link. They can FLY on their keyblades etc, etc All things Sora can't do. SO maybe they're more powerful due to that? But there's no reason to think a single one of them is physically more capable than KH2 Sora. Just like there's no reason, at all, to think KH3 Sora is physically more impressive than KH 2 Sora.

DDD Sora is just like all the other versions of Sora seeing as how he was reset to 0 by Yen Sid. And by your logic, he's weaker than KH2 Sora.

I forgot that... that being said. DDD Sora still ends up busting buildings with casual slices and knows Stop? It's more of a debate than KH3 Sora vs KH2 Sora, imo. I'd argue DDD Sora also stronger than KH3 Sora.

@soothing_sounds: Ok, I'll give you a feat that probably better than the first one, not so sure about the second one.

No Caption Provided

<Sora instantaneously travels to multiple heartless while demonstrating better agility and mobility, while time is FROZEN.

This is from the Festa trailer. It's not actually a canon ability as it never actually makes it in the game

@soothing_sounds: Ok, I'll give you a feat that probably better than the first one, not so sure about the second one.

No Caption Provided

With Marshmallow help to hold the tremendous ball, Sora eradicates it! If you measure the skyscraper's kh2 Sora slice through, that ball is much bigger!! Saying this Sora is weaker in strength is bullshit, he destroyed something that made skyscraper fodder.

It's an energy attack that takes time to charge. Sora would never actually be able to use this against any character 1 V 1. Especially KH2 Sora who's still faster.

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#41 Edited by InfinteGod12 (210 posts) - - Show Bio
@soothing_sounds said:

@soothing_sounds: Ok, I'll give you a feat that probably better than the first one, not so sure about the second one.

No Caption Provided

<Sora instantaneously travels to multiple heartless while demonstrating better agility and mobility, while time is FROZEN.

This is from the Festa trailer. It's not actually a canon ability as it never actually makes it in the game

I see, touche. But overall he still can move faster with Airstep, regardless of the non-cannon feat, for now. Like this for example-

No Caption Provided

Sora in a mere second charged through an energy slash without receiving damage, an impressive feat kh 2 Sora can't do even if he is faster.
Despite the fact Air Step feat from festa doesn't count, Air Step still has the speed, agility, and mobility of it canonically, thus putting him a faster tier above his previous game self (Without Airstep, he still has better agility and mobility anyway thanks to flowmotion.)

@soothing_sounds: Ok, I'll give you a feat that probably better than the first one, not so sure about the second one.

No Caption Provided

With Marshmallow help to hold the tremendous ball, Sora eradicates it! If you measure the skyscraper's kh2 Sora slice through, that ball is much bigger!! Saying this Sora is weaker in strength is bullshit, he destroyed something that made skyscraper fodder.

It's an energy attack that takes time to charge. Sora would never actually be able to use this against any character 1 V 1. Especially KH2 Sora who's still faster.

Still, it requires a great amount of strength to burst that dark meteor with energy for something huge like that, Furthermore a powerful feat with help.

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#42 Edited by frostplatinum (422 posts) - - Show Bio

@soothing_sounds said:

@frostplatinum said:

@soothing_sounds said:

I was talking about consistency from feats only, not statements also because of reasons given above which you ignored. And "we" are not stuck going based off of feats, you are, which once again is still a fallacy in and of itself. If you think it's meaningless, I'm sorry to hear that, you dragged yourself into this.

I hear what you're saying. I'd like to redraw the statement of Kingdom Hearts being inconsistent and I'll address your points. However I still don't think Statements keep things consistent, and in fact add inconsistencies. Zeus moving planets is an impressive feat of Tk and even if Xemnas is stronger than him due to the word of God... if anything this only further proves my point about characters being stronger than one another due to different reasons. This wouldn't mean Aqua has the stats of KH2 Sora and that we can scale KH3 Sora to having the stats of KH2 Sora. Zeus has superior TK. By feats. Easy. No Dispute. Xemnas however is a reality warper. See how two crucial different abilities can make two characters strong in different ways. That being said, Hades didn't defeat Zeus. That was a combination of the titans. KH3 worlds follow the story's of their respective franchise nearly to a T. The fight between Zeus and the Titans happens offscreen in the game IIRC, but the movie depicts Hades utilizing the four Titans to actually defeat Zeus, not he Himself.

No. Riku had no way of knowing if Donald's heart was still there or not. And it's not headcanon, it's supported by Sora gazing off into the demon tide pensively after Donald fell, and Riku saying other things obviously to comfort him like "pull it together" and "we have to protect them." And once again I say considering how Sora literally got on his knees and started screaming and crying when everybody else was gone, there was a good chance that Riku was saying that so that wouldn't have happened. This isn't the first time Sora has almost broken down and he needed Riku to encourage him.

Keyblade wielders can feel hearts and the connections between hearts. This is noted multiple times by multiple keyblade wielders throughout the series. It is headcanon... You don't know what Riku is thinking for what reasons at any given time, ever. It's all in your head. Yes Riku is obviously giving him motivation, but because he was scared, or concerned, or anything really. If Donald would've lost his heart, Sora would've instantly known. He knew Elsa had struck Anna in the heart and he barely knew the two of them

And if you seriously still don't see the flaw in Goofy flying back also when clashing with Terranort, I don't know what to tell you. It is a major outlier on both Donald and Goofy's parts even if their feats here were as impressive as you are trying to make them sound. It's not what makes Terranort stronger, it's what makes Donald and Goofy weaker. Do you have anything to actually debunk what I've said on keyblade wielders objectively always being the stronger ones? You literally quoted it yourself and then ignored it.

Um how bout the feat of Donald one shotting a keyblade wielder? Goofy Blocking another? Goofy Blocking Riku?

No Caption Provided

There is no objectivity to it. The keyblade is the strongest weapon in the game, sans the x-blade. Unless there's a direct statement saying all keyblade wielders are stronger than all non keyblade wielders I don't know how that could be an objective statement. Especially when there are feats to the contrary.

Sure it's a major difference in strength if we go off of assumptions but in reality it is quite vague, you explained why yourself. Sora, Donald, and Goofy's key beam never made contact with Xehanort's hand. Sora's key beam alone never made contact with Xehanort's key beam. Xehanort's key beam being backed by KH does not really mean anything when he himself was also backed by KH. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I am not "ignoring" anything, I'm just not going off of assumptions.

Master Xehanort wasn't backed by Kingdom Hearts. He was just utilizing it's power. He had the X-blade and the 12 members + Kairi to amp him.

What you are saying is that if Sora used his own key beam against Master Xehanort's, it probably would have gotten overpowered. And that if Sora, Donald, and Goofy used their key beam (which has no power boost that's ever been stated/implied/shown on screen) against Master Xehanort's hand, it probably would have overpowered him. Please think about that and some possible ways you could have messed up your scaling in the slightest, and then come back to me.

Unless you think Master Xehanort's hand wave is weaker than his beam attack... I really don't see the problem here.

...We, as the players, will never know what was used in canon to beat Aqua. It's available in the boss fight itself to blitz Aqua, but we don't know if he did it in canon or not, so to once again to assume that he couldn't is headcanon. And also, once again, BBS characters are above KH2 characters, there doesn't need to be feats for everything as I've already said and explained multiple times.

If he did blitz her... he's faster than Aqua. The point I'm making is... there's no reason to think BBS characters are stronger in the first place. Again, at least not physically. A very important set of stats. BBS keyblade wielders can make barriers to have fights in... that's something Sora can't do. They can D-Link. They can FLY on their keyblades etc, etc All things Sora can't do. SO maybe they're more powerful due to that? But there's no reason to think a single one of them is physically more capable than KH2 Sora. Just like there's no reason, at all, to think KH3 Sora is physically more impressive than KH 2 Sora.

DDD Sora is just like all the other versions of Sora seeing as how he was reset to 0 by Yen Sid. And by your logic, he's weaker than KH2 Sora.

I forgot that... that being said. DDD Sora still ends up busting buildings with casual slices and knows Stop? It's more of a debate than KH3 Sora vs KH2 Sora, imo. I'd argue DDD Sora also stronger than KH3 Sora.

See below

Keyblade wielders being able to feel hearts has been contradicted about as many times as it has been stated. Sora could not sense that Kairi's heart was inside of him throughout most of KH1 until Riku/Ansem told him. Roxas could not sense that him, Axel, and the rest of Organization 13 had hearts. And if I apparently don't know what Riku is thinking at any time, what makes you so sure that you do? I'm not saying that's what he was thinking objectively, but it's what makes the most sense. If he was scared or concerned for himself, I doubt he would've been focusing on Sora. He did nearly the same thing at the end of KH1 when they were closing the door to darkness and Sora started to break down, but was able to keep going with Riku's encouragement. It's Riku's job to be the more mature, older brother type of person to Sora's as said to him by Aqua.

I'm aware of Donald and Goofy's scuffle with Terranort, I was asking for more than that to support it not being an outlier. Goofy didn't block Riku himself, like another Terranort situation... he blocked a featless blast from Riku. And why would you accept a statement saying all keyblade wielders are stronger than all non keyblade wielders? Would that not count as a statement about power levels?

He was using power to fight Sora, Donald, and Goofy. Power which was backed by Kingdom Hearts. I don't really see that being all that different from he himself being backed by Kingdom Hearts, but, oh well, I guess I could've worded that better.

Neither have the feats to support one being stronger than the other. So to say MX's key beam is stronger than his hand wave because it's probably stronger, and then scale Donald and Goofy off of that is not really the most accurate way to go.

No, I mean... that's optional in gameplay by pressing x, it's not triggered by anything like a reaction command. But once again even if he did canonically blitz that would go to show he is the fastest that he's ever been. And there is. Mainly because none of those are really useful in a fight, at least not against Sora. How is making a barrier to fight in useful? It doesn't really matter, as not only was Aqua's literally almost shattered by a little fireball, but also, Sora has fought inside of barriers and won before. What do D-Links do? Just give them some new abilities from Disney characters? I don't really see how those are useful either but Sora has summons. How is flying useful for any of them? None of them are really long range fighters which would make it useful but Sora has beaten enemies that could fly before. None of these things make them more powerful, the only implication to get from all the statements is that they're physically superior.

That was with Riku and also with a completely different keyblade, and not necessarily casual. But even if we were to ignore all of that and count it as valid it should speak for itself. Sora did almost nothing impressive in DDD besides that, as a matter of fact he was extremely fatigued after fighting Xemnas 1v1, when in KH2, Sora stomped him 1v1. So to assume that just because Sora isn't cutting buildings all over the place in 3, that he can't, is fallacious.

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#43 Posted by TifaLockhart (21135 posts) - - Show Bio

Donald oneshotting Terra left him in a bad state. It's like Iron Man punching out the Hulk only to ruin his armor, or Tellah dealing 9999 damage to Golbez only to die from it.

I got nothing for Goofy though.

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#44 Posted by Soothing_Sounds (2270 posts) - - Show Bio

@infintegod12:

I see, touche. But overall he still can move faster with Airstep, regardless of the non-cannon feat, for now. Like this for example-

No Caption Provided
Sora in a mere second charged through an energy slash without receiving damage, an impressive feat kh2 Sora can't do even if he is faster.
Despite the fact Air Step feat from festa doesn't count, Air Step still has the speed, agility, and mobility of it canonically, thus putting him a faster tier above his previous game self

That's still not faster than my first feat. Heck it may not even be faster than this:

No Caption Provided

Because at least here He's both attacking and moving at the same time, and I 'd argue the distance as near equitable.. Meanwhile Airstep is just that, an airstep over a short distance. And no Airstep is not the same as the Festa feat, as he hadn't shown to operate in combat on those levels.

I guess warping through energy is something... but you're really pushing gameplay mechanics as feats at that point. Not to mention I remember someone exclaiming that Sora could warp through walls due to them not being destroyed until after he had passed by them... i don't agree. i'm just mentioning something relatable to your feat of warping through energy.

(Without Airstep, he still has better agility and mobility anyway thanks to flowmotion.)

See, I think you mistook one of my feats as a feat of speed. But it was actually a feat of agility and mobility. See this:

Is much better than this:
Is much better than this:
No Caption Provided

Still, it requires a great amount of strength to burst that dark meteor with energy for something huge like that, Furthermore a powerful feat with help.

That's cool. Doesn't make him greater in combat than KH2 Sora. So I don't see why it would be relevant.

See below

Keyblade wielders being able to feel hearts has been contradicted about as many times as it has been stated. Sora could not sense that Kairi's heart was inside of him throughout most of KH1 until Riku/Ansem told him. Roxas could not sense that him, Axel, and the rest of Organization 13 had hearts.

Um yes he could. He just didn't understand what was happening. Sora had full on hallucinations and conversations with Kairi multiple times ala Roxas and Ventus(who were also in his heart). He even shared some of her memories. Just because you don't understand your abilities doesn't mean you don't have them. Meanwhile Roxas was just manipulated into believing he doesn't have a heart. I'm pretty sure he even mentions feeling like he has one in KH 365/2 days and just ignoring the feeling due to being told he doesn't. Being misled and not understanding your powers definitely doesn't mean you don't have them. KH3 Brought these abilities to the forefront of the story. He used them to bring people back to life. Felt his connection to Pooh wavering, etc etc.

And if I apparently don't know what Riku is thinking at any time, what makes you so sure that you do? I'm not saying that's what he was thinking objectively, but it's what makes the most sense. If he was scared or concerned for himself, I doubt he would've been focusing on Sora. He did nearly the same thing at the end of KH1 when they were closing the door to darkness and Sora started to break down, but was able to keep going with Riku's encouragement. It's Riku's job to be the more mature, older brother type of person to Sora's as said to him by Aqua.

I don't that's why I mentioned at the end "or anything really" as a means of saying I don't know. And I wasn't disagreeing with you about him consoling Sora. Just that he wasn't consoling Sora due to the fact that Donald was dead. All I was saying is that I disagree with you suggesting he lied about Donald's heart still being with him to console Sora. There's no reason to think Riku would lie about that there.

I'm aware of Donald and Goofy's scuffle with Terranort, I was asking for more than that to support it not being an outlier. Goofy didn't block Riku himself, like another Terranort situation... he blocked a featless blast from Riku. And why would you accept a statement saying all keyblade wielders are stronger than all non keyblade wielders? Would that not count as a statement about power levels?

Maybe if it was stated in a cutscene and not based off a pause screen... but it's hasn't been stated anywhere. it's never been reflected anywhere. It doesn't make sense that just being a keyblade wielder makes you stronger than everyone else that's not one. There's definitely no objectivity to it whatsoever. And you can't prove that and any evidence you offer for said statement is countered by tons of counter evidence. Literally just comparing KH1 BoG Sora to any legit non-keyblade threat from KH2, 3, etc makes your statement null 100x over

He was using power to fight Sora, Donald, and Goofy. Power which was backed by Kingdom Hearts. I don't really see that being all that different from he himself being backed by Kingdom Hearts, but, oh well, I guess I could've worded that better.

What are you talking about? Master Xehanort utilized Kingdom Hearts twice. Once when he turned Sora into Rage form(which is honestly ambiguous at best) and once when he used the dark beam.

Neither have the feats to support one being stronger than the other. So to say MX's key beam is stronger than his hand wave because it's probably stronger, and then scale Donald and Goofy off of that is not really the most accurate way to go.

Lol. One. This is the most far reaching logic I've ever heard. Two. Again it's back by Kingdom Hearts which does have feats superior to master Xehanorts hand wave and it KO's Sora which is better than Master Xehanorts hand wave. Again by multitudes.

No Caption Provided

And there is. Mainly because none of those are really useful in a fight, at least not against Sora. How is making a barrier to fight in useful? It doesn't really matter, as not only was Aqua's literally almost shattered by a little fireball, but also, Sora has fought inside of barriers and won before

Sora's also been BFR'd By barriers. So they do have some use.

What do D-Links do? Just give them some new abilities from Disney characters? I don't really see how those are useful either but Sora has summons. How is flying useful for any of them? None of them are really long range fighters which would make it useful but Sora has beaten enemies that could fly before. None of these things make them more powerful, the only implication to get from all the statements is that they're physically superior.

One of Aqua's main thing is Magic. Her primary form shift is called spell weaver. They all have ShotLock. All of them have long range abilities. but Aqua sort of is especially a long range fighter. And flying may not be useful. But it's at FTL speeds, and Lingering Will(the reason you assume BBS characters are more powerful in the first place) uses his keyblade flight abilities in combat. Again even we were to say BBS KB Wielders are more powerful(Which I Completely disagree with) They have multiple other abilities to make that reasoning so besides physical capabilities.(Especially speed and strength, maybe Durability, but I doubt it).

No, I mean... that's optional in gameplay by pressing x, it's not triggered by anything like a reaction command. But once again even if he did canonically blitz that would go to show he is the fastest that he's ever been.

I never said that he blitzed her. In fact I said that he didn't and then you said that that's what could've happened??? Why are you indicating that I said that?

That was with Riku and also with a completely different keyblade, and not necessarily casual. But even if we were to ignore all of that and count it as valid it should speak for itself. Sora did almost nothing impressive in DDD besides that, as a matter of fact he was extremely fatigued after fighting Xemnas 1v1, when in KH2, Sora stomped him 1v1. So to assume that just because Sora isn't cutting buildings all over the place in 3, that he can't, is fallacious.

I forgot that was with Riku and it was their dual attack. Sora doesn't have to be cutting buildings up all over the place, but he needs a feat of some sort to say he could besides scaling off of Aqua. And scaling off of fights where he had help. And he doesn't have it. It's not fallacious. It'd be fallacious if he hadn't been depowered or had any concrete evidence to the contrary to say that he could again.

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#45 Posted by frostplatinum (422 posts) - - Show Bio

@soothing_sounds said:

Um yes he could. He just didn't understand what was happening. Sora had full on hallucinations and conversations with Kairi multiple times ala Roxas and Ventus(who were also in his heart). He even shared some of her memories. Just because you don't understand your abilities doesn't mean you don't have them. Meanwhile Roxas was just manipulated into believing he doesn't have a heart. I'm pretty sure he even mentions feeling like he has one in KH 365/2 days and just ignoring the feeling due to being told he doesn't. Being misled and not understanding your powers definitely doesn't mean you don't have them. KH3 Brought these abilities to the forefront of the story. He used them to bring people back to life. Felt his connection to Pooh wavering, etc etc.

Roxas didn't just go with the lies about not having a heart, maybe at first but later he investigated himself. Axel straight up asks him in the cutscene after the fight with Roxas if he's sure himself that he and the rest of them don't have hearts. Roxas responded with, and I quote, "I don't know. I can't just look inside. But I figure, if there is something in there, inside us, then we'd feel it, wouldn't we?" He was confirming there that he couldn't sense Axel's heart. He couldn't sense Namine's heart. He couldn't sense any fellow Organization member's heart, and most importantly, he couldn't even sense his own. Also when Xemnas gave Sora, Riku, and Mickey the speech about teetering on the edge of nothing and not really existing in TWTNW, they all seemed to be pretty fooled by his claim of not having a heart.

I don't that's why I mentioned at the end "or anything really" as a means of saying I don't know. And I wasn't disagreeing with you about him consoling Sora. Just that he wasn't consoling Sora due to the fact that Donald was dead. All I was saying is that I disagree with you suggesting he lied about Donald's heart still being with him to console Sora. There's no reason to think Riku would lie about that there.

Ok. I'm just saying I don't think there was much evidence to Donald still being alive though. I don't think Riku is a liar, but him saying that Donald still has his heart is the real thing that has no reasoning behind it as I've explained above, he'd have no way of knowing. So perhaps he was saying it as a white lie type of thing, I don't think that's definitely what happened and anyone who disagrees is wrong, but it's the most logical explanation I can think of.

Maybe if it was stated in a cutscene and not based off a pause screen... but it's hasn't been stated anywhere. it's never been reflected anywhere. It doesn't make sense that just being a keyblade wielder makes you stronger than everyone else that's not one. There's definitely no objectivity to it whatsoever. And you can't prove that and any evidence you offer for said statement is countered by tons of counter evidence. Literally just comparing KH1 BoG Sora to any legit non-keyblade threat from KH2, 3, etc makes your statement null 100x over

What makes a pause screen statement less valid than a cutscene statement? I'd say a pause screen statement could actually be more valid, because it's the game itself telling you basically to expand the lore. In a cutscene it could be stated by a narrator, but it's more likely for a character to have stated it that may have no idea what he/she is talking about. But besides that, which part of the argument are you referring to when you say that? Because the pause screen statement was in relation to the BBS > KH2 argument, not the keyblade wielder > non keyblade wielder argument. KH1 bog Sora may have seemed weak but look at the similarities between him and all of his other renditions. He's reset to 0 in KH3, just like how bog KH1 Sora started from 0, but he was still able to beat all 3 titans. Or CoM Sora who once again was reset to 0 but able to handily beat Axel. So to judge him by not having many feats is once again fallacious just like with KH3 Sora. I guess I didn't say what I meant though. Keyblade wielders are not always stronger when comparing them to people like Organization 13 (minus Roxas and Xion) but they do always end up as stronger than people like Donald and Goofy. Who are not high tiers.

What are you talking about? Master Xehanort utilized Kingdom Hearts twice. Once when he turned Sora into Rage form(which is honestly ambiguous at best) and once when he used the dark beam.

Kingdom Hearts' power is represented through the X-blade. Xehanort had a complete, non fake version of it and ditched his "No Name" keyblade at the last minute to actively fight Sora, Donald, and Goofy with it.

Lol. One. This is the most far reaching logic I've ever heard. Two. Again it's back by Kingdom Hearts which does have feats superior to master Xehanorts hand wave and it KO's Sora which is better than Master Xehanorts hand wave. Again by multitudes.

No Caption Provided

... Thank you? I was referencing yours though, not mine?

No. There are still feats in between that are missing. Sora's key beam never hit Xehanort's. And Sora's presumably amped key beam never hit Xehanort's hand. Sora has never tanked his own key beam, or even gotten hit with it in the first place for that matter. The same can be said for Xehanort's hand wave too.

Sora's also been BFR'd By barriers. So they do have some use.

When was this? It still doesn't really sound like it matters, because their barriers cannot do that. Even if they did he'd just get BFR'd to a place that he could still kick their butts in if they weren't physically above him. Their barriers don't amp them, or weaken their opponent in any way. No hax. Nothing useful. They are all around a huge cop out, and couldn't even save Aqua from a small fireball from Vanitas.

One of Aqua's main thing is Magic. Her primary form shift is called spell weaver. They all have ShotLock. All of them have long range abilities. but Aqua sort of is especially a long range fighter. And flying may not be useful. But it's at FTL speeds, and Lingering Will(the reason you assume BBS characters are more powerful in the first place) uses his keyblade flight abilities in combat. Again even we were to say BBS KB Wielders are more powerful(Which I Completely disagree with) They have multiple other abilities to make that reasoning so besides physical capabilities.(Especially speed and strength, maybe Durability, but I doubt it).

IIRC the only shotlock that was impressive was Photon Charge which is still a bit iffy. The Lingering Will's keyblade glider charge thing still did not stop Sora from reacting to it. And I am not going off of assumptions I am going off of statements from the game itself, I will provide you the scan again if you want. I've yet to see any BBS ability that triumphs over Sora/Riku's arsenal, just because Sora and Riku don't have it doesn't mean it's automatically more useful.

I never said that he blitzed her. In fact I said that he didn't and then you said that that's what could've happened??? Why are you indicating that I said that?

I'm saying all of this was possible because it was a gameplay fight. To say that anything happened or that anything didn't happen could be wrong as far as we know.

I forgot that was with Riku and it was their dual attack. Sora doesn't have to be cutting buildings up all over the place, but he needs a feat of some sort to say he could besides scaling off of Aqua. And scaling off of fights where he had help. And he doesn't have it. It's not fallacious. It'd be fallacious if he hadn't been depowered or had any concrete evidence to the contrary to say that he could again.

See above for the Aqua part. Donald and Goofy are a non factor.