Something to consider for future battles. (Strong guys)

Avatar image for clantern
Clantern

714

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#1  Edited By Clantern

Ok, this is going to sound nerdy and stupid to the comic world, but just for future refernce (sorry if this has been discussed before) try to bare in mind Newton's Second Law.

This is the basic law of physics when the rate of change of momentum of a body is proportional to the resultant force acting on the body and is in the same direction. In English, if a big guy hits something really hard, it's going to hurt him just as much as it hurts the object that he/she is hitting.

I thought i would bring this up, as the vine is less talking about crazy preperation time with nuclear warheads ready to destroy the plantet with a batmobile, and more about science and logic in battles. (well the people we respect anyways.) This is a good thing to take into account, especially for the likes of 'The Hulk' and 'Doomsday.'


These big guys, when fighting a guy of equal strengh, they are going to be hurting themselves too, basic recoil of the fists they are throwing.

I suppose this would have no real effect on speedsters, as technically they don't have to hit hard atall.

If only one person takes this into account during a battle i will be chedderd, so thanks for reading and i hope this doesn't get locked XD.


Before anyone has a go, this isn't aimed at any specific member at the vine (and yes i like Batman) i am just stating for all the smart guys that physics should be taken into account. (Unless of course you're 21 and have more money than everyone)

Avatar image for methos
Methos

40531

Forum Posts

53471

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 2

#2  Edited By Methos

i don't understand what you're trying to say...

M

Avatar image for buckshotwashere
BuckshotWasHere

19554

Forum Posts

76201

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 51

#3  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

Most characters with superhuman strength have superhuman durability to match so that their bodies are strong enough to take the strain of hitting with the force they can hit with (as well as taking hits from people in their strength bracket).

Avatar image for buckshotwashere
BuckshotWasHere

19554

Forum Posts

76201

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 51

#4  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

pixelized says:

"Buckshot says:
"Most characters with superhuman strength have superhuman durability to match so that their bodies are strong enough to take the strain of hitting with the force they can hit with (as well as taking hits from people in their strength bracket)."

i.e. rogue"

Even characters that don't have "superhuman durability" officially listed as a power still have it to some extent.

Avatar image for king_saturn
King_Saturn

250988

Forum Posts

509

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#5  Edited By King_Saturn

Hmm...that very interesting

Avatar image for clantern
Clantern

714

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#6  Edited By Clantern

Methos says:

"i don't understand what you're trying to say...M"

Sorry i should try to explain myself more, the point i'm trying to make is that, superheroes with really strong super strengh that are going at each other are going to hurt themselves due to the resultant force acting on the body, harder the punch, the more they are going to hurt themselves.


i think all i'm trying to say is that, in battle forums, not many people take physics into acount, just a little 'heads up.'


Sorry if it makes no sense you can lock it if you want.

Buckshot says:

"Most characters with superhuman strength have superhuman durability to match so that their bodies are strong enough to take the strain of hitting with the force they can hit with (as well as taking hits from people in their strength bracket)."I know, i mean guys with strengh and not durability, if that makes sense...
Avatar image for pixelized
pixelized

49085

Forum Posts

35764

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 1

#7  Edited By pixelized

Buckshot says:

"Most characters with superhuman strength have superhuman durability to match so that their bodies are strong enough to take the strain of hitting with the force they can hit with (as well as taking hits from people in their strength bracket)."

i.e. rogue

Avatar image for cosmic_sentinel
Cosmic Sentinel

3733

Forum Posts

8657

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 7

User Lists: 5

#8  Edited By Cosmic Sentinel

It's generally assumed that people with superstrength have the requisite invulnerability to handle that. Similarly, Cyclops's force blasts should rip his own head off, we let people off some of those things.

Avatar image for cosmic_sentinel
Cosmic Sentinel

3733

Forum Posts

8657

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 7

User Lists: 5

#9  Edited By Cosmic Sentinel

Buckshot says:

"Most characters with superhuman strength have superhuman durability to match so that their bodies are strong enough to take the strain of hitting with the force they can hit with (as well as taking hits from people in their strength bracket)."

Dang it, beaten to it again.

If you are interested in how physics works in the superhero world, check out The Physics of Superheroes by James Kaklios.

Avatar image for cosmic_sentinel
Cosmic Sentinel

3733

Forum Posts

8657

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 7

User Lists: 5

#10  Edited By Cosmic Sentinel

Clantern says:

"I know, i mean guys with strengh and not durability, if that makes sense...
"

I think you have to assume that even if they don't have invulnerability/toughness in the classic sense (like Superman), they have some form of it to allow their powers to work without crippling them.

Avatar image for methos
Methos

40531

Forum Posts

53471

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 2

#11  Edited By Methos

Newton's first law of motion predicts the behavior of objects for which all existing forces are balanced. The first law - sometimes referred to as the law of inertia - states that if the forces acting upon an object are balanced, then the acceleration of that object will be 0 m/s/s. Objects at equilibrium (the condition in which all forces balance) will not accelerate. According to Newton, an object will only accelerate if there is a net or unbalanced force acting upon it. The presence of an unbalanced force will accelerate an object - changing either its speed, its direction, or both its speed and direction.

Newton's second law of motion pertains to the behavior of objects for which all existing forces are not balanced. The second law states that the acceleration of an object is dependent upon two variables - the net force acting upon the object and the mass of the object. The acceleration of an object depends directly upon the net force acting upon the object, and inversely upon the mass of the object. As the force acting upon an object is increased, the acceleration of the object is increased. As the mass of an object is increased, the acceleration of the object is decreased.

Newtons second law is actually written as...

The acceleration of an object as produced by a net force is directly proportional to the magnitude of the net force, in the same direction as the net force, and inversely proportional to the mass of the object.

Or...

a = Fnet / M

(Thats what i was taught, not what they teach in schools now as it was rearranged to make it easier for students... it now looks like Fnet = M x A but it's still the same equation just rearranged...)

In this entire discussion, the emphasis has been on the net force. The acceleration is directly proportional to the net force; the net force equals mass times acceleration; the acceleration in the same direction as the net force; an acceleration is produced by a net force. The NET FORCE. It is important to remember this distinction. Do not use the value of merely "any 'ole force" in the above equation. It is the net force which is related to acceleration.

Using this law in comics is a bit weird as the full net force of any punch or kick for super strong people (Superman, Hulk, Supergirl... whoever) basically has the same force returned to them if they are impacting an object with more mass / volume than they have. (Again, not including speedsters or people that can change their density here)

So now to actually use this law / equation properly in comics we would actually have to work out the mass / density of each opponent and factor in the level of strength / speed used for each punch to work out the actual net force of any single punch / kick / impact...

Now, while I may do that for one or two battles that I'm really interested in, I'm not going to spend the time actually working out the net force of Superman's punches Vs The Hulk's head (Mass or density, take your pick there)

M

Avatar image for clantern
Clantern

714

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#12  Edited By Clantern

Buckshot says:

"Clantern says:
"I know, i mean guys with strengh and not durability, if that makes sense...
"Maybe give us an example, because most characters I can think of with super strength have a least some durability. Who do you have in mind?"

I suppose people like Hourman at top strengh (whatever the hell his is) as i don't think he has durability.


Maybe Barry Allen with the IMP, especially with the momentum, people say it's one of the strongest things in the DCU ('meta-human' pure strengh wise) so if it does that much damage to an oponent, it should do equal damage to himself.

Avatar image for buckshotwashere
BuckshotWasHere

19554

Forum Posts

76201

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 51

#13  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

Clantern says:

"I know, i mean guys with strengh and not durability, if that makes sense...
"

Maybe give us an example, because most characters I can think of with super strength have a least some durability. Who do you have in mind?

Avatar image for clantern
Clantern

714

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#14  Edited By Clantern

Methos says:

"Clantern says:
"Sorry i should try to explain myself more, the point i'm trying to make is that, superheroes with really strong super strengh that are going at each other are going to hurt themselves due to the resultant force acting on the body, harder the punch, the more they are going to hurt themselves. i think all i'm trying to say is that, in battle forums, not many people take physics into acount, just a little 'heads up.' Sorry if it makes no sense you can lock it if you want."

I'm not going to lock it, i typically try and actually use some sort of science in battles so i can use logic to determine a winner...

but this law doesn't really affect Superheroes as their mass / density / speed throw too many variables into the equation used for it to make any sort of actual sense...

M"

I know, i suppose basic physics taken into acount in most comics will be a bit on the bad side, i mean, watching a hero yelp in pain everytime they punched someone...

I guess i just tried to show that people who's durability cannot match their strengh on pure adrenaline alone, will have a disadvantage at going up against a bigger oponent.

Avatar image for methos
Methos

40531

Forum Posts

53471

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 2

#15  Edited By Methos

Clantern says:

"Sorry i should try to explain myself more, the point i'm trying to make is that, superheroes with really strong super strengh that are going at each other are going to hurt themselves due to the resultant force acting on the body, harder the punch, the more they are going to hurt themselves. i think all i'm trying to say is that, in battle forums, not many people take physics into acount, just a little 'heads up.' Sorry if it makes no sense you can lock it if you want."

I'm not going to lock it, i typically try and actually use some sort of science in battles so i can use logic to determine a winner...

but this law doesn't really affect Superheroes as their mass / density / speed throw too many variables into the equation used for it to make any sort of actual sense...

M

Avatar image for clantern
Clantern

714

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#16  Edited By Clantern

Methos says:

"Clantern says:
"Maybe Barry Allen with the IMP, especially with the momentum, people say it's one of the strongest things in the DCU ('meta-human' pure strengh wise) so if it does that much damage to an oponent, it should do equal damage to himself."

two points...

  1. Barry Allen never used an Infinite Mass Punch

  2. as the name implies, when Wally uses the infinite mass punch, you factor that into the equation... as his mass is "infinite" at that speed, his density is also infinite... he won't take any damage at that speed because of his mass / density attributed to the speeds involved.

if you'd like i can run down the equation for you...

M"

No i'll take your word on it XD


Can i just ask though, you are getting the point i'm trying to make arn't you? and i'm not just chatting jibberish am i?

Avatar image for methos
Methos

40531

Forum Posts

53471

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 2

#17  Edited By Methos

Clantern says:

"Maybe Barry Allen with the IMP, especially with the momentum, people say it's one of the strongest things in the DCU ('meta-human' pure strengh wise) so if it does that much damage to an oponent, it should do equal damage to himself."

two points...

  1. Barry Allen never used an Infinite Mass Punch

  2. as the name implies, when Wally uses the infinite mass punch, you factor that into the equation... as his mass is "infinite" at that speed, his density is also infinite... he won't take any damage at that speed because of his mass / density attributed to the speeds involved.

if you'd like i can run down the equation for you...

M

Avatar image for buckshotwashere
BuckshotWasHere

19554

Forum Posts

76201

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 51

#18  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

Clantern says:

"I suppose people like Hourman at top strengh (whatever the hell his is) as i don't think he has durability.
Maybe Barry Allen with the IMP, especially with the momentum, people say it's one of the strongest things in the DCU ('meta-human' pure strengh wise) so if it does that much damage to an oponent, it should do equal damage to himself."

I don't know crap abut Hourman so someone else will have to help you there, but as for Wally, as Methos has already pointed out, his mass is infinite. Also, the speed force takes care of "physics".

Clantern says:

"I know, i suppose basic physics taken into acount in most comics will be a bit on the bad side, i mean, watching a hero yelp in pain everytime they punched someone...I guess i just tried to show that people who's durability cannot match their strengh on pure adrenaline alone, will have a disadvantage at going up against a bigger oponent."

But most do have sufficient durability.

Avatar image for cosmic_sentinel
Cosmic Sentinel

3733

Forum Posts

8657

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 7

User Lists: 5

#19  Edited By Cosmic Sentinel

No, your not talking jibberish, it is a valid point. I think it shows why so many people with super strength are invulnerable.

Avatar image for methos
Methos

40531

Forum Posts

53471

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 2

#20  Edited By Methos

no, i get what you're trying to say...

you're saying that people should actually try and use some intelligence and science / logic in comic battles here...

that's all fine but you have to remember, most comic characters exist outside of the basic laws of physics... trying to apply basic laws of energy thermodynamics to Silver Surfer or Quantum Radiation laws to The Hulk... hell, even basic Mass / Density / strength laws to The Hulk is just going to give you a headache...

it's a good idea, but it's one that isn't actually practical in any real sense...

trying to work out Superman's powers, or where the extra mass comes from for The Hulks transformation, or how any biological entity could have the same proportional strength as some heroes is just going to put you in need of a fat wrap of crack...

M

Avatar image for cosmic_sentinel
Cosmic Sentinel

3733

Forum Posts

8657

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 7

User Lists: 5

#21  Edited By Cosmic Sentinel

I believe Hourman does gain some durability (obviously not Superman levels). I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure I've seen that in JSA somewhere.

Avatar image for clantern
Clantern

714

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#22  Edited By Clantern

Cosmic Sentinel says:

"I believe Hourman does gain some durability (obviously not Superman levels). I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure I've seen that in JSA somewhere."

Oh ok, well thanks anyways.


As for everyone else, thanks for the clear up, i guess most comic characters do deny the laws of physics, and i'm glad i got a load of responses, it kept me awake :D.

I guess all i can do now is accept that most people deny physics and hopefully, maybe comics will start focusing on the 'science' side of things, but then again, who doesn't love a good old @$$ kicking with no strings attached?

Avatar image for methos
Methos

40531

Forum Posts

53471

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 2

#23  Edited By Methos

well you can always count on me to bring some old fashioned science into battles :D

M

Avatar image for chaos_boy
Chaos boy

50

Forum Posts

63

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#24  Edited By Chaos boy

WOW you guys are talking way over my head, I just like all the pretty colors in the comic books. Oh and they all the chicks have big boobs.

Avatar image for super_buster
Super-Buster

2567

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#25  Edited By Super-Buster

Chaos boy says:

"WOW you guys are talking way over my head, I just like all the pretty colors in the comic books. Oh and they all the chicks have big boobs."

... you are kidding right?

Avatar image for gottheit
Gottheit

3591

Forum Posts

295

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 1

#26  Edited By Gottheit

Chaos Boy speaks the truth.

Avatar image for gottheit
Gottheit

3591

Forum Posts

295

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 1

#27  Edited By Gottheit

On the pretty colors and boobage point. I can follow this thread...semi well.