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#1 Posted by jardinain2 (4501 posts) - - Show Bio

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Solid Snake vs Agent Leon Scott Kennedy.

Round 1:

  • In character
  • Basic knowledge (reputations)
  • Full equipment with video game storage space

Round 2:

  • Bloodlusted
  • Knife battle only
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#2 Edited by highaccuser (30990 posts) - - Show Bio

Snake eats him alive.

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#3 Posted by blackestnight93 (14003 posts) - - Show Bio

where's that CQC quote when it's needed?

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#5 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (32664 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Posted by nickzambuto (29274 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

Snake eats him alive.

Agreed.

Leon has ridiculous speed and agility. Like, really over the top, Cyborg Ninja-type shit.

He matched, and later defeated, a Super Soldier Jack Krauser who was more experienced than Leon, had all the same training as him, and on top of that could crush thick steel like tinfoil and move at blurring speeds.

Notice how the world moves into slow motion, and Krauser, despite his superspeed, is spinning at a crawl. In this perception, Leon's slash moves in real-time, travels from over his left shoulder, goes wide, all the way to fully extended to the right. Then the world speeds back to normal and we see how fast Krauser was actually moving.

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These gifs all speak for themselves. Krauser is consistently a blur, his claw arm charges like a whirlwind, and Leon dodges it. When the two go CQC, Leon enters like an accelerated perception where the surrounding world is in slow motion.

He does the same accelerated perception in the laser room. Notice how that laser grid crosses a 30 foot distance in a few moments, and speeds up even further as it approaches Leon. He first runs straight towards it to build up momentum, then turns around, and instantly the laser grid almost freezes as his perception speeds up, he turns around, leaves it in the dust, and runs straight up a 10 foot vertical wall before backflipping off, narrowly dodging the whole field.

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And in the newest CGI movie, "Resident Evil: Vendetta," Leon is outright pulling off Devil May Cry shit and defying gravity, going CQC with a Tyrant and sliding all over the floor, and then actually grabbing the Tyrant's uppercut, and using it as a boost to fly 20 meters in the air while he reigns down lead from above, and even when he's midair with seemingly no maneuverability, he still somehow dodges the Tyrant's punch by flipping over it, landing on its arm, and using all the momentum to drop kick it in the face, hard enough to actually stagger it.

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And there's also this:

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So Leon has a pretty serious advantage in speed and agility, because he's more like a Cyborg Ninja within the MGverse considering how over the top and anime-like he is, rather than a human. But that's no problem, obviously, Snake has been skilled enough to defeat several Cyborg Ninjas.

Have you ever played Metal Gear Solid 1 on Extreme mode? The fight against Gray Fox is super freaking difficult, because his strength is reflected in the gameplay and one strike from him can drain half your healthbar. And he's so crazy agile, that he pulls off these wild, consecutive flip kick combinations that are impossible to outrun. The only way to beat him is to telegraph all of his attacks, and strategically dodge him in advance, then counterattack while he's left open. This is reflective of the way Snake would have fought Fox in canon, it's even reflected in the brief cutscene battle during Twin Snakes, where Snake retained defensive stance and allowed Fox to make the first moves.

So this goes to show just how skilled and tactically genius Snake is, he can overcome a crazy agility and strength disadvantage by telegraphing and countering his opponent. Can he do the same against Leon? Well, unlike Gray Fox who relied SOLELY on his strength and agility, I'd argue that Leon has the superhuman agility, IN ADDITION to tactical wits and skill that match Snake. So what is Snake supposed to do then? His 'weakness' (in a manner of speaking) has always been those with the same skills as him. He can take down any amount of metahumans or robots, regardless of what their powers are, just by being incredibly tactical. But the same is true for Leon, he just has the over the top stats layered on top. So what can Snake do?

I do think that Leon is a skill-peer with Snake. He was clearly outfighting Svetlana, who was the president and best fighter in her country with nearly superhuman strength and speed and trained her whole army, despite being caught off guard, while also severely limiting his own fightingstyle by strictly trying to capture her.

This is what people don't understand. Svetlana is an impressive opponent on her own, but Leon didn't want to actually hurt or beat her, he wanted to capture her, and she was his shield against the crowd of soldiers behind them. That means the vast majority of her moves were grabs and holds, in addition to a leg sweep, and an attempt to knee her solar plexus. He was severely limiting his own fighting style. Do you realize how difficult that is? Meanwhile Svetlana was totally free, she could strike, go for distance, throw. But Leon had to focus on keeping her right next to him, all while defending himself, and yet he still controlled the fight and acted as the aggressor, until Svetlana threw him too far away and he was exposed to the soldiers.

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This is a very good feat. Snake's never done anything like this, performing so well while limiting himself so severely.

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#7 Posted by SainguineXshadow (4115 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz said:
@highaccuser said:

Snake eats him alive.

Agreed.

Leon has ridiculous speed and agility. Like, really over the top, Cyborg Ninja-type shit.

He matched, and later defeated, a Super Soldier Jack Krauser who was more experienced than Leon, had all the same training as him, and on top of that could crush thick steel like tinfoil and move at blurring speeds.

Notice how the world moves into slow motion, and Krauser, despite his superspeed, is spinning at a crawl. In this perception, Leon's slash moves in real-time, travels from over his left shoulder, goes wide, all the way to fully extended to the right. Then the world speeds back to normal and we see how fast Krauser was actually moving.

Loading Video...
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
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These gifs all speak for themselves. Krauser is consistently a blur, his claw arm charges like a whirlwind, and Leon dodges it. When the two go CQC, Leon enters like an accelerated perception where the surrounding world is in slow motion.

He does the same accelerated perception in the laser room. Notice how that laser grid crosses a 30 foot distance in a few moments, and speeds up even further as it approaches Leon. He first runs straight towards it to build up momentum, then turns around, and instantly the laser grid almost freezes as his perception speeds up, he turns around, leaves it in the dust, and runs straight up a 10 foot vertical wall before backflipping off, narrowly dodging the whole field.

Loading Video...

And in the newest CGI movie, "Resident Evil: Vendetta," Leon is outright pulling off Devil May Cry shit and defying gravity, going CQC with a Tyrant and sliding all over the floor, and then actually grabbing the Tyrant's uppercut, and using it as a boost to fly 20 meters in the air while he reigns down lead from above, and even when he's midair with seemingly no maneuverability, he still somehow dodges the Tyrant's punch by flipping over it, landing on its arm, and using all the momentum to drop kick it in the face, hard enough to actually stagger it.

Loading Video...

And there's also this:

No Caption Provided

So Leon has a pretty serious advantage in speed and agility, because he's more like a Cyborg Ninja within the MGverse considering how over the top and anime-like he is, rather than a human. But that's no problem, obviously, Snake has been skilled enough to defeat several Cyborg Ninjas.

Have you ever played Metal Gear Solid 1 on Extreme mode? The fight against Gray Fox is super freaking difficult, because his strength is reflected in the gameplay and one strike from him can drain half your healthbar. And he's so crazy agile, that he pulls off these wild, consecutive flip kick combinations that are impossible to outrun. The only way to beat him is to telegraph all of his attacks, and strategically dodge him in advance, then counterattack while he's left open. This is reflective of the way Snake would have fought Fox in canon, it's even reflected in the brief cutscene battle during Twin Snakes, where Snake retained defensive stance and allowed Fox to make the first moves.

So this goes to show just how skilled and tactically genius Snake is, he can overcome a crazy agility and strength disadvantage by telegraphing and countering his opponent. Can he do the same against Leon? Well, unlike Gray Fox who relied SOLELY on his strength and agility, I'd argue that Leon has the superhuman agility, IN ADDITION to tactical wits and skill that match Snake. So what is Snake supposed to do then? His 'weakness' (in a manner of speaking) has always been those with the same skills as him. He can take down any amount of metahumans or robots, regardless of what their powers are, just by being incredibly tactical. But the same is true for Leon, he just has the over the top stats layered on top. So what can Snake do?

I do think that Leon is a skill-peer with Snake. He was clearly outfighting Svetlana, who was the president and best fighter in her country with nearly superhuman strength and speed and trained her whole army, despite being caught off guard, while also severely limiting his own fightingstyle by strictly trying to capture her.

This is what people don't understand. Svetlana is an impressive opponent on her own, but Leon didn't want to actually hurt or beat her, he wanted to capture her, and she was his shield against the crowd of soldiers behind them. That means the vast majority of her moves were grabs and holds, in addition to a leg sweep, and an attempt to knee her solar plexus. He was severely limiting his own fighting style. Do you realize how difficult that is? Meanwhile Svetlana was totally free, she could strike, go for distance, throw. But Leon had to focus on keeping her right next to him, all while defending himself, and yet he still controlled the fight and acted as the aggressor, until Svetlana threw him too far away and he was exposed to the soldiers.

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This is a very good feat. Snake's never done anything like this, performing so well while limiting himself so severely.

No.

I'm a huge fan of Resident evil been following the series from the start Leon has good feats but nothing even remotely close to Gray fox or Raiden as cyborg ninjas, the only Snake Leon is beating is old Snake as Solid Snake in his prime will maul him this is the dude that brought hand grenades to a tank fight an won they even talk about how insane Snake was for doing it in Mgs4.

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#8 Edited by nickzambuto (29274 posts) - - Show Bio

@sainguinexshadow said:

No.

I'm a huge fan of Resident evil been following the series from the start Leon has good feats but nothing even remotely close to Gray fox or Raiden as cyborg ninjas, the only Snake Leon is beating is old Snake as Solid Snake in his prime will maul him this is the dude that brought hand grenades to a tank fight an won they even talk about how insane Snake was for doing it in Mgs4.

I don't really care how huge a fan you are of Resident Evil. Snake destroying a tank with grenades is a great feat, but you act like Leon doesn't overcome the impossible all the time. He killed a King Kong-sized crocodile while cornered in a sewer, by detonating a pressurized tank inside its mouth. He was attacked by a Tyrant with next to no resources or equipment, and masterminded a plan to kill it by detonating an entire gasoline truck on top of it. He incapacitated the G-Monster singlehandedly, and all he needed was one grenade, when an entire team of Special Forces unloaded all of their firepower into it and didn't make it budge, by using his grenade to collapse an entire bridge onto the monster's head. Leon is just as creative, adaptable, and coolheaded as Snake is.

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#9 Edited by SainguineXshadow (4115 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:
@sainguinexshadow said:

No.

I'm a huge fan of Resident evil been following the series from the start Leon has good feats but nothing even remotely close to Gray fox or Raiden as cyborg ninjas, the only Snake Leon is beating is old Snake as Solid Snake in his prime will maul him this is the dude that brought hand grenades to a tank fight an won they even talk about how insane Snake was for doing it in Mgs4.

I don't really care how huge a fan you are of Resident Evil. Snake destroying a tank with grenades is a great feat, but you act like Leon doesn't overcome the impossible all the time. He killed a King Kong-sized crocodile while cornered in a sewer, by detonating a pressurized tank inside its mouth. He masterminded a plan to detonate an entire gasoline truck on top of a Tyrant with next to no resources. He incapacitated the G-Monster singlehandedly, and all he needed was one grenade, when an entire team of Special Forces unloaded all of their firepower into it and didn't make it budge, by using his grenade to collapse an entire bridge onto the monster's head. Leon is just as creative, adaptable, and coolheaded as Snake is.

For round 2 They both are bloodlusted and both are wielding knives and Snake is in his prime Snake is going to maul Leon, Snake raided outerheaven by himself and killed everyone before killing Venom Snake then later Zanzibar land destroying fox's metal gear and fist fighting fox on a damn minefield and winning before putting Big boss in a coma then comes his feats of Mgs1 where he stomps foxhound and blew up a tank with grenades etc.

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#10 Edited by nickzambuto (29274 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:
@sainguinexshadow said:

No.

I'm a huge fan of Resident evil been following the series from the start Leon has good feats but nothing even remotely close to Gray fox or Raiden as cyborg ninjas, the only Snake Leon is beating is old Snake as Solid Snake in his prime will maul him this is the dude that brought hand grenades to a tank fight an won they even talk about how insane Snake was for doing it in Mgs4.

I don't really care how huge a fan you are of Resident Evil. Snake destroying a tank with grenades is a great feat, but you act like Leon doesn't overcome the impossible all the time. He killed a King Kong-sized crocodile while cornered in a sewer, by detonating a pressurized tank inside its mouth. He masterminded a plan to detonate an entire gasoline truck on top of a Tyrant with next to no resources. He incapacitated the G-Monster singlehandedly, and all he needed was one grenade, when an entire team of Special Forces unloaded all of their firepower into it and didn't make it budge, by using his grenade to collapse an entire bridge onto the monster's head. Leon is just as creative, adaptable, and coolheaded as Snake is.

They both are bloodlusted and both are wielding knives and Snake is in his prime Snake is going to maul Leon, Snake raided outerheaven by himself and killed everyone before killing Venom Snake then later Zanzibar land destroying fox's metal gear and fist fighting fox on a damn minefield and winning before putting Big boss in a coma then comes his feats of Mgs1 where he stomps foxhound and blew up a tank with grenades etc.

Being bloodlusted and having knives is not an advantage to Snake. Actually, Leon specializes in knives much more than Snake does, in this scenario Snake is playing HIS game, not the other way around. Leon raided the Los Illuminados by himself and killed everyone, except unlike Outer Heaven, they were all superhumans. He killed Krauser, Saddler, Verdugo, all skilled and physically superior to Venom, as well as multiple 50-100 tonners. Snake fought Fox in a minefield, neutral disadvantage. Leon fought Krauser on Krauser's battlefield, prepped out with booby traps, puzzles, and attack robots. Severe disadvantage for Leon, he still won. That's a better feat than beating human Fox.

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#11 Posted by SainguineXshadow (4115 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: i'm a huge fanboy of Leon i love his personality i love how he is a genius and is getting better every appearance he is in, but he's not winning against Solid Snake he may win against Old Snake but prime is going to maul Leon.

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#12 Posted by nickzambuto (29274 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: i'm a huge fanboy of Leon i love his personality i love how he is a genius and is getting better every appearance he is in, but he's not winning against Solid Snake he may win against Old Snake but prime is going to maul Leon.

i'm a huge fanboy of Snake i love his personality i love how he is a genius and is getting better every appearance he is in, but he's not winning against Leon Kennedy he may win against rookie cop Leon but prime is going to maul Snake.

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#13 Edited by BeaconofStrength (12175 posts) - - Show Bio

Snake without too much hassle.

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#14 Posted by SainguineXshadow (4115 posts) - - Show Bio

@sainguinexshadow said:

@nickzambuto: i'm a huge fanboy of Leon i love his personality i love how he is a genius and is getting better every appearance he is in, but he's not winning against Solid Snake he may win against Old Snake but prime is going to maul Leon.

i'm a huge fanboy of Snake i love his personality i love how he is a genius and is getting better every appearance he is in, but he's not winning against Leon Kennedy he may win against rookie cop Leon but prime is going to maul Snake.

Tell me do you think Leon could beat Metal gear's?

Or last more then one second against Null or Gray fox?

Rex will step on Leon.

I don't see Leon beating a single Metal gear besides Metal gear Raxa.

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#15 Posted by All-Father (2477 posts) - - Show Bio

Snake, although Leon gives him a run for his money.

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#16 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (32664 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: CQC. Only charcaters with CQC can beat CQC. Your words.

Leon does not have CQC mate, kek.

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#17 Edited by SainguineXshadow (4115 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:
@sainguinexshadow said:
@nickzambuto said:
@sainguinexshadow said:

No.

I'm a huge fan of Resident evil been following the series from the start Leon has good feats but nothing even remotely close to Gray fox or Raiden as cyborg ninjas, the only Snake Leon is beating is old Snake as Solid Snake in his prime will maul him this is the dude that brought hand grenades to a tank fight an won they even talk about how insane Snake was for doing it in Mgs4.

I don't really care how huge a fan you are of Resident Evil. Snake destroying a tank with grenades is a great feat, but you act like Leon doesn't overcome the impossible all the time. He killed a King Kong-sized crocodile while cornered in a sewer, by detonating a pressurized tank inside its mouth. He masterminded a plan to detonate an entire gasoline truck on top of a Tyrant with next to no resources. He incapacitated the G-Monster singlehandedly, and all he needed was one grenade, when an entire team of Special Forces unloaded all of their firepower into it and didn't make it budge, by using his grenade to collapse an entire bridge onto the monster's head. Leon is just as creative, adaptable, and coolheaded as Snake is.

They both are bloodlusted and both are wielding knives and Snake is in his prime Snake is going to maul Leon, Snake raided outerheaven by himself and killed everyone before killing Venom Snake then later Zanzibar land destroying fox's metal gear and fist fighting fox on a damn minefield and winning before putting Big boss in a coma then comes his feats of Mgs1 where he stomps foxhound and blew up a tank with grenades etc.

Being bloodlusted and having knives is not an advantage to Snake. Actually, Leon specializes in knives much more than Snake does, in this scenario Snake is playing HIS game, not the other way around. Leon raided the Los Illuminados by himself and killed everyone, except unlike Outer Heaven, they were all superhumans. He killed Krauser, Saddler, Verdugo, all skilled and physically superior to Venom, as well as multiple 50-100 tonners. Snake fought Fox in a minefield, neutral disadvantage. Leon fought Krauser on Krauser's battlefield, prepped out with booby traps, puzzles, and attack robots. Severe disadvantage for Leon, he still won. That's a better feat than beating human Fox.

No it's not Human Fox could blitz groups of trained soldiers armed to the teeth reflect several amounts of gunfire from said groups all with just a machete before slicing them to pieces.

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Any version of Fox is going to butcher Leon.

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#18 Posted by nickzambuto (29274 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:
@sainguinexshadow said:

@nickzambuto: i'm a huge fanboy of Leon i love his personality i love how he is a genius and is getting better every appearance he is in, but he's not winning against Solid Snake he may win against Old Snake but prime is going to maul Leon.

i'm a huge fanboy of Snake i love his personality i love how he is a genius and is getting better every appearance he is in, but he's not winning against Leon Kennedy he may win against rookie cop Leon but prime is going to maul Snake.

Tell me do you think Leon could beat Metal gear's?

Or last more then one second against Null or Gray fox?

Rex will step on Leon.

I don't see Leon beating a single Metal gear besides Metal gear Raxa.

Yes. Leon's been under plenty of pressure fighting Tyrants and other monsters. It took 100 tons of steel blindsiding Saddler from behind just to stun him. Saddler had long reach and was throwing everything in the environment towards Leon at high speeds. Leon dodged it all and took Saddler down. Simmons was literally the size of Godzilla, and Leon fought him, while surrounded by hundreds of zombies. Leon succeeded by tricking Simmons into absorbing a lightning rod, multiple times, and killed him with lightning. That's a GREAT feat.

Could he last one second against Gray Fox? Yes, he's just as agile and much smarter and more skilled.

@nickzambuto: CQC. Only charcaters with CQC can beat CQC. Your words.

Leon does not have CQC mate, kek.

I'm playing devil's advocate.

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#19 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (3810 posts) - - Show Bio

shouldn't venom snake be a better match

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#20 Posted by SainguineXshadow (4115 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: considering Fox did this to Ocelot who has great feats on his own i doubt Leon is more skilled then Fox or as agile as Fox Smarter yea because Fox is mental.

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Leon is one of the soldiers in this hallway if he were to fight Gray Fox.

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#21 Posted by nickzambuto (29274 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: considering Fox did this to Ocelot who has great feats on his own i doubt Leon is more skilled then Fox or as agile as Fox Smarter yea because Fox is mental.

Leon is one of the soldiers in this hallway if he were to fight Gray Fox.

Fox only did that because Ocelot was completely focused on fighting Snake, and Fox was invisible. Ocelot is certainly more skilled than Fox, Ocelot is on par with the Snakes while Fox is way below them.

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#22 Edited by SainguineXshadow (4115 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:
@sainguinexshadow said:

@nickzambuto: considering Fox did this to Ocelot who has great feats on his own i doubt Leon is more skilled then Fox or as agile as Fox Smarter yea because Fox is mental.

Leon is one of the soldiers in this hallway if he were to fight Gray Fox.

Fox only did that because Ocelot was completely focused on fighting Snake, and Fox was invisible. Ocelot is certainly more skilled than Fox, Ocelot is on par with the Snakes while Fox is way below them.

Wrong considering Fox was killing Clones of Big boss throughout mgs1 as stated by liquid whoever it is they have already killed 4 genome soldiers they must be a psycho, and Fox was massively holding back in the CQC fight with Snake clearly shown later against Rex Ocelot isn't more skilled then Fox Ocelot wouldn't dare engage Fox unless he was pulling a liquid in a mech because Fox has no reason to nerf himself against Ocelot, Ocelot would be just another fodder soldier in that hallway.

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#23 Edited by High_Noon (514 posts) - - Show Bio

Silly Nick, you've only confirmed my suspicions.

Leon is it indeed Super Human, but that's his biggest flaw. See by no longer being a normal human he is no longer a man, and what is snake known as? "The MAN who makes the Impossible Possible." This means anything Leon has done was possible, meaning Snake have done it as well, but Leon has NEVER done anything Impossible, simply because he isn't Human, he's superhuman, while Snake, The MAN, has done the impossible while Leon is still just doing the possible. Need more convincing? Sure, how about the fact that since Leon is Super Human, he enhanced stats, powers if you will and Snake knows cqc, which is the Pinnacle of skill and it's a common known fact that Skill>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Power

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#24 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (32664 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

I'm playing devil's advocate.

HERETIC! The cult of Kojima will strike you from its honored pages!

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#25 Posted by decaf_wizard (11482 posts) - - Show Bio

Inb4 NickZ types 3 pages of text because of the mental conflict this match will cause him

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#28 Posted by Amendment50 (11456 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Edited by SainguineXshadow (4115 posts) - - Show Bio

@amendment50 said:
@blackestnight93 said:

where's that CQC quote when it's needed?

No Caption Provided

This is silly anyway because CQC is a mixture of judo muay thai and kick boxing with some Kali mixed in.

And Leon does show CQC in Damnation against JD and Sveltlana he just isn't beating a prime Solid Snake.

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#30 Edited by blackestnight93 (14003 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by CaoCao (112 posts) - - Show Bio

Snake take this.

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#32 Posted by nickzambuto (29274 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:
@sainguinexshadow said:

@nickzambuto: considering Fox did this to Ocelot who has great feats on his own i doubt Leon is more skilled then Fox or as agile as Fox Smarter yea because Fox is mental.

Leon is one of the soldiers in this hallway if he were to fight Gray Fox.

Fox only did that because Ocelot was completely focused on fighting Snake, and Fox was invisible. Ocelot is certainly more skilled than Fox, Ocelot is on par with the Snakes while Fox is way below them.

Wrong considering Fox was killing Clones of Big boss throughout mgs1 as stated by liquid whoever it is they have already killed 4 genome soldiers they must be a psycho, and Fox was massively holding back in the CQC fight with Snake clearly shown later against Rex Ocelot isn't more skilled then Fox Ocelot wouldn't dare engage Fox unless he was pulling a liquid in a mech because Fox has no reason to nerf himself against Ocelot, Ocelot would be just another fodder soldier in that hallway.

Wait, now you're saying Fox was massively holding back on Snake?

So... Snake beating Fox isn't much of a feat than. Your whole point was that Leon couldn't beat Fox the way Snake did. But now you're saying Fox held back, so in that case, Leon COULD beat him.

Silly Nick, you've only confirmed my suspicions.

Leon is it indeed Super Human, but that's his biggest flaw. See by no longer being a normal human he is no longer a man, and what is snake known as? "The MAN who makes the Impossible Possible." This means anything Leon has done was possible, meaning Snake have done it as well, but Leon has NEVER done anything Impossible, simply because he isn't Human, he's superhuman, while Snake, The MAN, has done the impossible while Leon is still just doing the possible. Need more convincing? Sure, how about the fact that since Leon is Super Human, he enhanced stats, powers if you will and Snake knows cqc, which is the Pinnacle of skill and it's a common known fact that Skill>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Power

You're like the Prometheus against my Green Arrow. Everything I've ever said used against me at once.

@nickzambuto:

I'm playing devil's advocate.

HERETIC! The cult of Kojima will strike you from its honored pages!

Kojima-san will forgive me, I've been his most loyal advocate all this time!

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#33 Posted by Watcher5000 (4469 posts) - - Show Bio

Snake

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#34 Posted by nickzambuto (29274 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by Chris-Sama (2451 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Edited by SainguineXshadow (4115 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: no he couldn't because Leon doesn't get the nerf option from Fox as far as Fox is concerned Leon is just another random soldier that get's to face his blade rather a nice hand to hand fight.

No my whole point was Leon can't beat Fox period because Fox doesn't have ties to Leon effectively butchering his any attempt at survival Fox will not fight Leon on any of the same ground that he fought Snake, Null would outright kill him Cyborg Fox butchers him.

Snake has beat too many people and things that Leon could not beat Leon wouldn't engage a Tank with Hand grenades because to most people this is suicidal psycho mantis would kill him.

Here i will list everyone he can beat in Mgs that would be easier.

1.Mgs3 The Cobras and everyone besides the Boss yes this includes Volgin as Volgin was shit in CQC with no backup from Eva Shagohod kills him.

2. Mgs portable ops Cunnigham and Python Null will murder him Genome will murder him he can beat Metal gear raxa.

3. Mgs peacewalker none of the Ai's or Peacewalker they all would kill him, the Russian and Hot coldman's force he could beat.

4. Mgs phantom pain the burned man Aka Volgin he should beat, the Skull's depending on equipment it's a tossup Metal gear Rex's Daddy nope.

5. Mgs1 decoy octopus and sniper wolf and Raven if he is not in his Tank he could take and probably Ocelot, Gray Fox kill's him Liquid in a hind D kill's him psycho mantis kill's him Rex turns him into a a squished bug.

6. Mgs2 maybe Vamp definitely beats Fatman Fortune is iffy maybe beat's the massproduced Ray's Solidus kill's him.

7. Mgs4 should beat most of the B&B corp possibly dying to crying wolf with no Raiden backup dies from Suicide Gekkos attempting to fight Vamp with no Otacon can't use Rex to it's full potential and dies to Ray.

Loses to Raiden Solid Snake Big Boss and probably Venom Snake more of a tossup, can beat Old Snake especially if he has his stupid near death moments.

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#37 Posted by zackg (387 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Pretty much all those are gameplayfeats and anyone can be Superman during gameplay. The thing of time slowing, that was just the devs choice to show how evenly matched they were. Plus Snake could do all the same things with the same equip. Hell, a Metal Gear could rip through the entire Low Illuminados, including their mutated forms

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#38 Posted by SainguineXshadow (4115 posts) - - Show Bio

@zackg: send in Rex's Daddy and Los illuminados wouldn't know what hit them.

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#39 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (32664 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: for penance, you must replay MGS 3, naked, and eat raw meat for a day.

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#40 Edited by AllStarSuperman (39869 posts) - - Show Bio

It's nick time of the month

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#41 Posted by BOLTOK100 (552 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackestnight93: umm something something need to be Batgod with omnipotence and 100 years prep while Snake is blind and has no arms? Also his cqc is so superior that you can't cqc Snake unless Chuck Norris and even then it's a tough match? Haha idk I have seen what you are asking for tho

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#42 Posted by cooljammy18 (1760 posts) - - Show Bio

Never thought I see the day that Nick would turn against Snake himself. Hell has just frozen over.

Snake wins in a decent fight.

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#43 Posted by maxxcveiler (824 posts) - - Show Bio

Leon wins if composite

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#44 Posted by Saiyan77 (1868 posts) - - Show Bio

Solid Snake is a decent fight he just has beat better enemies with better feats

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#45 Posted by Dygoboy (4157 posts) - - Show Bio

The day Nick turns on Snake.... Never thought I'd see that day coming...

Leon gets beaten but it won't be easy for Snake considering most of his feats attained so far.

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#46 Posted by nickzambuto (29274 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: no he couldn't because Leon doesn't get the nerf option from Fox as far as Fox is concerned Leon is just another random soldier that get's to face his blade rather a nice hand to hand fight.

No my whole point was Leon can't beat Fox period because Fox doesn't have ties to Leon effectively butchering his any attempt at survival Fox will not fight Leon on any of the same ground that he fought Snake, Null would outright kill him Cyborg Fox butchers him.

Snake has beat too many people and things that Leon could not beat Leon wouldn't engage a Tank with Hand grenades because to most people this is suicidal psycho mantis would kill him.

Wait a second, this doesn't make any sense.

If you're saying that Snake only beat Gray Fox because Gray Fox held back on him... then... beating Gray Fox isn't impressive. Yet, the reason Snake is better than Leon, is because Leon couldn't beat Gray Fox... but you just said Snake wouldn't be able to either. So which is it?

Personally, I don't believe that Gray Fox allowed Snake to win. That idea is pure headcanon, it's never ever alluded to or even implied in the game, or any of the games for that matter, or any official material at all, canon or non canon. The story of Shadow Moses has been told, retold on the GameCube, retold in a novel, retold in another novel, and retold through a comic book series, and not one of them ever even brings up the idea of Gray Fox holding back. It would be inconsistent with his motives anyway, if you listen to his conversation with Snake, Fox doesn't even remember who Snake is. Fox doesn't even remember HIMSELF. He's driven by a sociopathic instinct to fight Snake to the death, that's it. He literally doesn't care who wins, he just wants one of them to kill the other.

"A fight to the death with you. Only in that can my soul find respite... I will kill you, or you will kill me. It makes no difference."

Right there, it's over. That quote completely shoots down any machination of Fox wanting Snake to defeat him. He could not possibly be any more clear, than stating outright, that he doesn't care who wins.

Now, you might be asking yourself, "Why is this guy arguing that Snake beat Fox legit? Isn't he trying to argue that Leon can beat Snake? Giving Snake a great feat like this is counterproductive to his whole goal."

You'd be right, but even if I am on Leon's side, I cannot let a blatant myth persist. David did beat up Gray Fox in a neutral, no-context brawl. So who is Gray Fox? He is a Cyborg Ninja strong enough to smash metal walls, send damaging shockwaves by stomping, and even catch a Metal Gear's stomp, putting him somewhere in the 100-ton range. David is only a human, so he couldn't match Fox's strength, he had to outmaneuver him and counterstrike every time he was left open.

But Gray Fox was also a master ninja and superhumanly agile, so outmaneuvering him wasn't easy. He moved faster than Snake, so the only way to avoid him was by predicting his attacks and counterstriking at the perfect timing.

If you've ever fought Gray Fox on Extreme mode, his Cyborg Ninja capabilities are reflected in the boss battle. The only way to defeat him is by doing what I described, and it is HARD. Succeeding at that boss without being touched really gives you a greater appreciation for Solid Snake's skill as a legendary warrior.

But is this one feat totally out of Leon's league? I don't believe so, because there are more important things than strength and speed. Namely, Fox isn't anywhere near as smart or as skilled as Leon. Leon is actually a fighting genius, Ada confirmed this, and Fox was just a schizo maniac acting on pure instinct, like a wild animal. So as powerful as Fox was, compared to somebody fighting smarter, more efficiently, more tactically, he isn't going to be as dangerous.

Could Leon replicate Snake's feat of outmaneuvering every move Fox makes, always staying one step ahead of him, and counterstriking him at the perfect tactical moments? Yes, because the REverse has plenty of characters just as agile as Fox, but who are a load smarter and more skilled.

Let's start by talking about Ada. Now, this chainsaw J'avo is CRAZZYY POWERFUL. He's strong enough to completely shatter giant, neon billboards with one swing, and the death animations show him wacking Ada hard enough to send her body flying multiple stories up and a city block away, crashing into a wall. Getting rammed by a speeding train didn't even stop this monster. Sherry and Jake TOGETHER were barely able to survive against this freak, despite both of them being highly skilled superhumans, and also having a whole arsenal of weaponry at their disposals, the Chainsaw J'avo gave them complete HELL singlehandedly.

Now Ada has to fight it by herself... and she's just toying around! She's making wisecracks, outright taunting the thing, basically having a ball! And she doesn't even need weapons to do it. This really goes to show the skill difference between a veteran like Ada, and talented youngsters like Jake and Sherry. I mean, just look at how effortless those movements are. How she's agile enough to counter the beast while in midair. She even uses grappling to control the beast in a struggle while the train approaches, then easily kicks him to the ground at the perfect timing.

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She doesn't have Gray Fox's bullet timing reflexes, but being so much smarter and more skilled, and equally agile, I actually think she could hang with him for a bit. Not do any significant damage, but she wouldn't be curbstomped either. She'd telegraph him, make use of minimum movement, and stay one step ahead of him for a good while.

Her senses and agility are ninja-like. Even after being tranquilized, and rendered totally incapacitated, the moment her unconscious body senses danger, she snaps awake and dodges on pure instinct.

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Ada Wong is a QUEEN.

Now how does Leon deal with this superhuman acrobat, smooth, sexy, intelligent deadly trained killer? Leon isn't as over the top as Ada is, he's a lot more down to Earth and gritty when he fights. She's almost agile enough to fly, for Pete sakes, he obviously can't match her there. But that's okay, because more importantly is that he's a lot smarter, and a lot more skilled. She gets right behind him and holds a gun to his back, literally the most dominant, advantageous position a person can get, and in a flash, he completely reverses the situation and makes her look like a child.

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Now let's look at Svetlana Belikova, the President of the Eastern Slav Republic, and combat instructor for her army and the Soviet Union. Svetlana is a master of the Russian fighting style Systema, and extraordinarily advanced and difficult, but equally deadly style of combat that focuses on joint locks and pressure points.

Ada displays some downright inhuman speed and dexterity in this fight, but it's clear that the whole time, Svetlana is just toying with her. Ada tries every trick in her arsenal, she even pulls out a knife, but Svetlana literally dances around her every move, before disarming the knife and simultaneously slashing Ada in one motion so smooth, that Ada barely dodges it. Ada displays amazing skills in this fight. Again, using minimum movement, her brains, and her equal agility, I think she could stay one step ahead of Gray Fox for a little while. Yet, Svetlana is clearly her master.

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Yet when Leon shows up, we all know who the king is. Not even Svetlana can defeat Leon. In this scene, you have to keep in mind the circumstances, Leon isn't expecting Svetlana to be a combatant at all, he thinks she's just a politician, and he's also surrounded by a Special Forces team aiming rifles at his head, with his only protection being Svetlana as his shield. So when Svetlana attacks, Leon has to adapt to the situation instantly, and his own fighting style is restricted by just trying to capture her. So while she is completely free, and could utilize strikes, holds, throws, whatever, Leon has to simultaneously worry about the SF team getting a bead on him if she gets too far away, and has to coordinate the fight in a way that she stays in between him and the soldiers, while simultaneously limiting his moves to grabs, and extremely close range strikes like that leg sweep and knee. In these circumstances, the two are dead on par, neither one can land a hit on the other. But that's a holding back Leon against Svetlana at her best. She's still just as dangerous as ever, notice how she literally throws Leon 10 feet into the air and back with one hand. That's superhuman strength. And this is Leon restricted by more than half, he can't utilize his agility or strikes because he has to stay right next to her, yet he still matches Svetlana with just pure tactics and pure skill. Leon at his best very well might stomp her. So imagine Leon, unrestricted? Utilizing his agility, and his full moveset, and his fighting skill that puts even Ada and Svetlana's both to shame? Could he stay one step ahead of Gray Fox? Yes, I think so.

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A character with skills similar to Ada and Svetlana is Jack Krauser, who is Special Forces trained in USSOCOM, and even acted as a mercenary during his days off because he felt combat was his only purpose. I definitely feel like Krauser is a stronger fighter than Gray Fox (Frank), he's precise, clinical, utterly tactical. Even Frank in his prime isn't as precise or tactical as Krauser, and the schizo mindless Frank is even less of a match. Yet even a guy like Krauser, couldn't keep up with Leon's super-agent skills. He needed to become a Super Soldier with blurring speed and the strength to rend solid steel in his grip, just to become a match for Leon. And on top of that, he had prep time and lured Leon to a boobytrapped battlefield with puzzles, explosives, and turret drones all on his side. And on top of THAT, he mutated his arm into a gigantic, bulletproof claw of immense power, compared to Leon's puny knife. He had ALL these advantages, and Leon STILL FRIGGIN WON.

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Look at that skill, he's dancing around Krauser's every move and maneuvering him into opening up for a 540 kick straight to the jaw. Look at those reflexes, Krauser moves at superhuman speeds, and his claw is immensely powerful and huge, but Leon is always a step ahead. Krauser has superhuman reflexes; not on par with Gray Fox, but his actual movement speed is superior. If Leon can constantly stay one step ahead of him, I think this proves he can stay one step ahead of Gray Fox.

Even a man of Krauser's talents, coupled with all this power, still can't match Leon. Leon is the greatest fighter on the planet. It almost seems like he can do anything.

There is only one person in the whole world who is shown to truly be able to match Leon, and that's the legendary hero Chris Redfield. All the powers and enhancements in the world, and nobody was able to match Leon's sheer skill. Instead, it took a soldier of similar skill and determination to finally match him. Chris, who is a skilled enough fighter to counterstrike Wesker, and could launch a giant boulder 10 meters away with his bare hands through sheer determination. That's what it took to finally match Leon in CQC.

Never thought I see the day that Nick would turn against Snake himself. Hell has just frozen over.

Snake wins in a decent fight.

@dygoboy said:

The day Nick turns on Snake.... Never thought I'd see that day coming...

Leon gets beaten but it won't be easy for Snake considering most of his feats attained so far.

I'm just playing devil's advocate for the sake of debate. Make sure to read these posts, they're really good.

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#47 Posted by DanielDaRipper (981 posts) - - Show Bio

Snake both rounds

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#48 Posted by SainguineXshadow (4115 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: except your wrong.

Snake: Fox what do you want from me?

Fox: i'm a prisoner of death only you can set me free.

Case in point he purposely lost to Snake confirmed later, Gray Fox obviously nerfed himself against Snake out of Nostalgia in a hand to hand fight just like the hand to hand fight in the minefield in a straight up all out fight Fox would butcher Snake with his sword he does not because his real intent is to die by Snake as he clearly says later Gray Fox is suffering from his nerves not being fully connected to his exosuit so he feel's the disconnection that causes him sever pain and to wig out Raiden actually mentions something about Gray Fox's outdated Cyborg problems in Rising not directly but he points out the exact problem Fox has and says it's excruciating.

It's in a codec without Boris or Kevin hell might even be Doktor i don't remember which but Raiden mentions Doctor Clark IIRC, Gray Fox solo's Resident evil with utter ease it took a Metal gear stomping on him to crumble his Exosuit no one in Resident evil has that kind of output not even close.

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#49 Posted by Watcher5000 (4469 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Posted by AllStarSuperman (39869 posts) - - Show Bio

Leon drives a motorcycle into Snakes head.