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Avatar image for fukyourenchamp
#1 Edited by FukYouRenchamp (7109 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

Rules:

  • Win by any win condition
  • Danny is 616
  • Snake is Composite Comics & Games

Round One:

  • Both are unarmed, Danny can't use Chi

Round Two:

  • Snake has his standard equipment, Danny can use chi

Setting:

  • Both star in LOS but can quickly dash into the shadows
  • Lights start on but slowly go out starting 30 seconds, and it will be very dark by two minutes.
No Caption Provided

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#3 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

Iron fist.

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#4 Posted by SupremeGeneration (10627 posts) - - Show Bio

If Danny w/o chi- danny after a real tough fight

If w/ chi- Danny curbstomps

No Caption Provided

<<

<<

Danny owning Ragnarok from Civil War arc

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#5 Posted by Sy8000 (34809 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Danny.

2. Danny stomps

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#6 Edited by The_Caped_Crusader (10533 posts) - - Show Bio

Iron Fist.

Round 2 is a stomp.

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#7 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@supremegeneration: That scan is actually not from civil war. Unless you mean that was the same ragnarok from civil war?

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#8 Posted by Heatblaze (10393 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by Heatblaze (10393 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by SupremeGeneration (10627 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Yea, my bad.

I need 2 punish my sources 4 wrong info! ARF!

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#11 Posted by themongoose (1733 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly don't see how snake wins this fight

Mongoose

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#12 Edited by zaied (7205 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Snake

2. Iron Fist

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#13 Posted by NinjaWarrior268 (11964 posts) - - Show Bio

Snake loses, I'm afraid :(

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#14 Posted by cdiddyman911 (5525 posts) - - Show Bio

Danny both rounds.

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#15 Posted by dajhonmccloud (2995 posts) - - Show Bio

Danny

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#16 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

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#17 Posted by deactivated-5a04a566e9ae3 (12864 posts) - - Show Bio

You all need to actually play a Metal Gear game. Solid Snake stomps.

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#18 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

Holy Location Advantage Batman! Snakes got this one in the box!

Seriously, if Snake stops having a wet dream from that much cardboard, he could have a field day against almost anyone.

Not to mention that it goes dark after two minutes. This isn't even fair.

I seriously can't believe anyone is favoring Danny here, let alone almost every person here. This is either the typical domino effect on CV, where people just repeat what the person before them said, or people just didn't read the OP.

Straight up battle, snake could probably win with range.

Hand to hand, Snake has a chance to win with CQC, but Danny should win a solid majority.

A battle with a bazillions card board boxes, and a room that goes dark after two minutes....Snake stomps everybody, this isn't even a slight challenge for him. He's snuck by armies before with conditions a million times harder then this one.

Seriously, this should be locked for spite. This OP is completely designed for Snake to completely stomp just about any character imaginable.

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#19 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by Sy8000 (34809 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: Danny has good enough senses to hear sweat rolling down people's cheeks. Stealth is meaningless. Or Danny could just punch the ground and end it with the shockwave.

There's no way Danny is losing.

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#21 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Danny wins this too, not really fair unless this is early, like 90s Iron Fist. Since 2000 and up he had horrendous power upgrades.

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#22 Posted by BeaconofStrength (12487 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: Snake takes a majority; composite Snake is fast as hell.

Round 2: Iron Fist wrecks. It'd be more fair if you gave Snake his MGS4 arsenal.

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#23 Posted by Aatroxxx (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

Danny both rounds

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#24 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz said:

@tparks: I love you Tparks.

No Caption Provided
@highaccuser said:

@tparks: Danny has good enough senses to hear sweat rolling down people's cheeks. Stealth is meaningless. Or Danny could just punch the ground and end it with the shockwave.

There's no way Danny is losing.

He has no enhanced senses in round 1, since he has no chi to focus. Snake stomps 10/10 round 1. There is almost nothing to debate against this IMO. Danny will have no idea where Snake is until his neck is snapped.

Round 2 Snake has full gear, and Danny actually has to focus his Chi to enhance his senses to the point of hearing sweat roll. It's not a constant thing for him. Snake shoots him in the head from a concealed location before Danny ever knows what's going on. This location heavily favors Snake so much it's not even fair at all.

Sure, we could say Danny destroys the entire factory with a chi powered punch just because he doesn't know where Snake is, but that's pretty out of character for him.

All of the comments so far have been about how much more powerful Danny is, which is true, but power doesn't mean anything if he has no idea where to focus it. Danny could be strong enough to punch straight through the pages of a comic and KO the reader, but it's not going to help him here, as he will never have a chance to throw a single punch.

This OP was set up for Snake to stomp Danny. Give them a fair battleground and a fair scenario, and Danny wins, but this is just a thread made to have Snake stomp. It's really one of the biggest spite threads I've ever seen, although I don't think Pr0 made it intentionally that way.

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#25 Edited by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: Where is it said Danny needs to focus his chi to the point of hearing sweat roll? I don't remember that being stated. Danny was also trained to fight based on air currents which isn't a method of sensing snake has shown he can counter to my knowledge.

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#26 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@tparks: Where is it said Danny needs to focus his chi to the point of hearing sweat roll? I don't remember that being stated. Danny was also trained to fight based on air currents which isn't a method of sensing snake has shown he can counter to my knowledge.

Danny focuses chi to enhance his senses. He has human senses without doing that.

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#27 Posted by FukYouRenchamp (7109 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:
@sirfizzwhizz said:

@tparks: I love you Tparks.

No Caption Provided
@highaccuser said:

@tparks: Danny has good enough senses to hear sweat rolling down people's cheeks. Stealth is meaningless. Or Danny could just punch the ground and end it with the shockwave.

There's no way Danny is losing.

He has no enhanced senses in round 1, since he has no chi to focus. Snake stomps 10/10 round 1. There is almost nothing to debate against this IMO. Danny will have no idea where Snake is until his neck is snapped.

Round 2 Snake has full gear, and Danny actually has to focus his Chi to enhance his senses to the point of hearing sweat roll. It's not a constant thing for him. Snake shoots him in the head from a concealed location before Danny ever knows what's going on. This location heavily favors Snake so much it's not even fair at all.

Sure, we could say Danny destroys the entire factory with a chi powered punch just because he doesn't know where Snake is, but that's pretty out of character for him.

All of the comments so far have been about how much more powerful Danny is, which is true, but power doesn't mean anything if he has no idea where to focus it. Danny could be strong enough to punch straight through the pages of a comic and KO the reader, but it's not going to help him here, as he will never have a chance to throw a single punch.

This OP was set up for Snake to stomp Danny. Give them a fair battleground and a fair scenario, and Danny wins, but this is just a thread made to have Snake stomp. It's really one of the biggest spite threads I've ever seen, although I don't think Pr0 made it intentionally that way.

I don't think its a stomp either way, Iron Fist has caught a Sniper Bullet coming from behind him while he was poisoned.

I just googled warehouse and picked the first one.

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#28 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:
@jashro44 said:

@tparks: Where is it said Danny needs to focus his chi to the point of hearing sweat roll? I don't remember that being stated. Danny was also trained to fight based on air currents which isn't a method of sensing snake has shown he can counter to my knowledge.

Danny focuses chi to enhance his senses. He has human senses without doing that.

I don't remember this being stated. When Danny heard a bead of sweat in immortal iron fist #9 Danny wasn't expecting to be spied on. He was actually practicing different techniques how to kill a man (the black-black poison touch). Danny's increased awareness seems like a passive ability. Or alternatively its something he's trained himself to do unconsciously and automatically. Danny did comment he was training to use the abilities he learned from the book of iron fist unconsciously in immortal iron fist #8. It also doesn't seem to take Danny any effort to achieve that level of awareness.

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#29 Posted by BeaconofStrength (12487 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

trained to fight based on air currents which isn't a method of sensing snake has shown he can counter to my knowledge.

Grey Fox was confirmed to have that ability and Snake was able to stalk and sneak up on him. And Big Boss, while never stated, seemed to have a similar skill.

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#30 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

trained to fight based on air currents which isn't a method of sensing snake has shown he can counter to my knowledge.

Grey Fox was confirmed to have that ability and Snake was able to stalk and sneak up on him. And Big Boss, while never stated, seemed to have a similar skill.

I stand corrected but Gray Fox was unstable when he fought snake.

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#31 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I haven't read the new series, so maybe that's something new to his character, but if that's the case, it does make this battle much different.

In older stuff, he could enhance his senses by focusing his chi. I remember him listening in on a conversation or something once by focusing his chi. I would have no idea what issue at this point. I might dig around and see if I can find it, although it sounds like it doesn't really matter for the purposes of this thread, if he no longer needs Chi to enhance his senses anyways.

EDIT:

Nevermind, I'm sticking with my original thoughts on this battle that Snake has no problems at all winning both rounds. I looked up the scan of the feat in question.

No Caption Provided

Not only was he focusing Chi when he did this, he was in the middle of meditation. I don't see Danny having the ability to do this in this scenario.

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#32 Posted by BeaconofStrength (12487 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:
@beaconofstrength said:

@jashro44:

trained to fight based on air currents which isn't a method of sensing snake has shown he can counter to my knowledge.

Grey Fox was confirmed to have that ability and Snake was able to stalk and sneak up on him. And Big Boss, while never stated, seemed to have a similar skill.

I stand corrected but Gray Fox was unstable when he fought snake.

The MGS1 digital comic commented on Fox having that ability when he was first introduced. He was unstable but still retained his skill, (upgraded) physicals, and the ability to detect air movements; him being unstable only affected his personal memories.

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#33 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

@jashro44: I haven't read the new series, so maybe that's something new to his character, but if that's the case, it does make this battle much different.

In older stuff, he could enhance his senses by focusing his chi. I remember him listening in on a conversation or something once by focusing his chi. I would have no idea what issue at this point. I might dig around and see if I can find it, although it sounds like it doesn't really matter for the purposes of this thread, if he no longer needs Chi to enhance his senses anyways.

Yea this is the scan I am talking about, Danny did get an upgrade from the book of iron fist:

No Caption Provided

@jashro44 said:
@beaconofstrength said:

@jashro44:

trained to fight based on air currents which isn't a method of sensing snake has shown he can counter to my knowledge.

Grey Fox was confirmed to have that ability and Snake was able to stalk and sneak up on him. And Big Boss, while never stated, seemed to have a similar skill.

I stand corrected but Gray Fox was unstable when he fought snake.

The MGS1 digital comic commented on Fox having that ability when he was first introduced. He was unstable but still retained his skill, (upgraded) physicals, and the ability to detect air movements; him being unstable only affected his personal memories.

I imagine being mentally unstable would affect any mental brain function including awareness and tactical ability. Does Gray Fox have any awareness feats while unstable?

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#34 Edited by BeaconofStrength (12487 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: It's what allowed him to detect and block bullets to an even further degree, not to mention the cybernetics were doing a majority of the work. Either way, all his combat skill was retained when he became a cyborg; the only thing it ever effected was his personal memories (friends, family, etc..). He only remembered Snake because he was fueled by vengeance.

In the comic, Grey Fox's official bio confirmed he had that ability the whole time during the Shadow Moses incident.

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#35 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: It's what allowed him to block bullets to an even further degree, and the cybernetics were doing the work. Either way, all his combat skill was retained when he became a cyborg; the only thing it ever effected was his personal memories (friends, family, etc..). He only remembered Snake because he was fueled by vengeance.

In the comic, Grey Fox's official bio confirmed he had that ability the whole time during the Shadow Moses incident.

Fair enough. I guess I am wrong about that. All though just for clarification did Gray Fox have this ability in the game or is this something only established in the comics? The OP says composite snake so it works here but I just want to know for future threads.

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#36 Edited by BeaconofStrength (12487 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: It was confirmed he had this ability in the comic and IIRC the novel. And the comics were confirmed as a solid semi-canon and/or an alternative to the games. The only things that aren't canon are Twin Snakes, Metal Gear AC!D, Snakes Revenge, Ghost Babel, and the mobile games.

The ability also doesn't interfere or conflict with mainline canon, so it makes it even more valid.

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#37 Edited by Mee09 (5328 posts) - - Show Bio

Snake wins round 1. Danny without Chi isn't doing much to the CQC master super soldier Snake. Especially in a scenario like this.

Iron Fist can potentially one shot in Round 2.

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#38 Edited by Wyldsong (9577 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

@jashro44: I haven't read the new series, so maybe that's something new to his character, but if that's the case, it does make this battle much different.

In older stuff, he could enhance his senses by focusing his chi. I remember him listening in on a conversation or something once by focusing his chi. I would have no idea what issue at this point. I might dig around and see if I can find it, although it sounds like it doesn't really matter for the purposes of this thread, if he no longer needs Chi to enhance his senses anyways.

EDIT:

Nevermind, I'm sticking with my original thoughts on this battle that Snake has no problems at all winning both rounds. I looked up the scan of the feat in question.

No Caption Provided

Not only was he focusing Chi when he did this, he was in the middle of meditation. I don't see Danny having the ability to do this in this scenario.

I agree with you on many things my friend, but here I have to disagree. He was focusing the chi of Shou Lao through his hands when in discussion about the moves and infinite ways to kill men. He had no such glow when discussing his heightened awareness. Prior to even this though (if the chi thing is going to be in contention), he has shown blind fighting proficiency, sensing invisible foes/weapons, and so on, with no mention of focusing his chi or even focusing. He has even fought foes in a deep meditative state, so focus in combat is no issue for him. Not to mention, he can also play the ranged game with chi projectiles, can turn a punch into a bomb blast, and could most likely collapse the warehouse with a punch. Plus there is his reacting to sniper bullets fired from behind, reacting in the microseconds to automatic gunfire, and dodging gunfire while holding onto a rope and running on the side of a building and fighting ninjas then punching out a military chopper...

Without any chi at all, he is simply peak human, but it should be noted that he has 2 sources of chi. Limiting all chi keeps him at peak human at best. He has his personal chi from his training and martial arts mastery, then the Shou Lao chi gained from his defeating the immortal dragon.

Round 1, maybe Snake, if the hype is true, though give Danny his personal chi, it would probably be another story. It is difficult to discuss Danny without chi, since all of his showings, he has had one of his sources of chi. Round 2, with full on chi, Danny should honestly take it. Danny doesn't need the light to fight, though with chi, he could light the place up fairly easily...

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#39 Posted by DarthAznable (16928 posts) - - Show Bio

Danny's chi is OP.

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#40 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

Warning: Huge post incoming, but I'd like to hear everyone else's thoughts on where I'm going with this so don't be afraid to read it.

Solid Snake is legitimately one of the most dangerous peak human characters in fiction, and it’s time he received the respect that he is warranted. I become more and more impressed with his accomplishments every time I play the games, and with the comic books acting as helpful supplementary material to give us an idea of what Snake was actually doing to survive during those overwhelming battles and boss fights against such powerful opponents, it gives us an idea of just what this man is truly capable of.

MGS1, the Shadow Moses Incident. Over the course of just one night Solid Snake alone managed to infiltrate the most secure government black-site for top secret weapons development research in the middle of Alaska being guarded by the Next-Generation Special Forces who despite already being the most elite, handpicked military force in the world, were secretly enhanced directly with Big Boss's "soldier genes," giving them augmented senses, reflexes, and combat skills. Despite everybody around him having identical genes, Solid Snake through his sheer training and experience was so massively more skilled than everybody else that he could make them all look like complete and utter fools, slipping by all of their defenses and state-of-the-art technology repeatedly as he progressed further through the complex for the entire night.

There is a reason that they call him “the man who makes the impossible, possible.” In that single night, Solid Snake singlehandedly killed off most of the Genome Army, defeated the most elite ninja in the world amped with a Cyborg exoskeleton in hand to hand combat through sheer skill, beat the world's greatest sniper in a sniper duel during the middle of a snowstorm, destroyed an M1 tank in head-to-head combat with nothing but a handful of grenades, outsmarted a telepath so absurdly powerful that he could effect the real world with his psychokinetic skill by countering with tactics that manipulated the actual game hardware, ghosted on a Shaman mystic and killed him from the shadows without ever being seen, destroyed Metal Gear itself almost singlehandedly, and then took on his twin brother, the man who’s very genetics destined him to be superior, and shattered that destiny through sheer force of will by winning the fight anyway, ALL WITHOUT GETTING HIT BY ANYBODY A SINGLE TIME (except for Liquid, who pushed Snake to his limits). Solid Snake is one of those characters who is truly just the best at everything.

Now let’s look at Iron Fist, Danny Rand. A master of martial arts, in fact a phenomenal, damn near superhuman master of martial arts. But what is he besides that? He is nothing, Danny Rand isn’t a marksman, he can’t be a ghost, he knows nothing of strategy or psychology, the cool aspect of Danny’s character is that he really is a normal, human guy, there’s nothing weird about him, he might be the most down to earth superhero I know of, but then he’s also this supernaturally talented master of martial arts. But the thing is, looking at the nature of their characters, Solid Snake is inherently the superior fighter. That ability-set isn’t going to get Danny ANYWHERE against an opponent like Solid Snake, despite his great martial arts skill, Danny simply won’t be able to keep up with David and his host of different abilities.

Now let’s compare the two combatants a little more specifically. Round 1 is obviously designed as a hand-to-hand battle between the two, but technically there aren’t any rules restricting Snake from using stealth. And, like tparks said, if Snake goes for stealth then OBVIOUSLY he stomps, you’d really have to be biased to side with Iron Fist under conditions like that. That’s just the honest truth. However, since the actual purpose of that match is clear (I’m fairly confident OP was going for a hand-to-hand match but just didn’t specify that deeply) I’ll just role with that scenario. Now this is where things get tricky.

Usually, for me, the ultimate test of a fictional character’s martial arts ability is skill that surpasses human limitations. After all, in old legends and stories, martial artist masters and ninjas were famous for being exactly that, and it is also consistent within the fictional universes themselves. Iron Fist is usually portrayed as the best in Marvel, Karate Kid is the best in DC with Richard Dragon being a distant second, and Goku is the best martial artist in fiction as a whole. These characters all have similar skillsets, it is just the extent of their abilities that differs.

So by that logic, which again is the logic I myself usually apply, Iron Fist is clearly better than Snake. But here is where it gets tricky; the thing with Metal Gear, is that there are several characters in the series who are also portrayed as martial artists and fighters of such a high caliber, that their skills often manifest in supernatural abilities. This doesn’t include Psycho Mantis and guys like that who were just mutants born with superpowers, it includes the likes of Vulcan Raven, The End, and most notably Vamp, who TRAINED to get supernatural powers. Snake himself isn’t very mystical in his skills, he’s the complete opposite, completely grounded and militaristic, and yet his technically advanced militaristic skills which focus on complete efficiency are constantly portrayed as by far superior to the flashier, supernatural martial arts and spiritualism. I should also point out that Metal Gear doesn’t throw around these supernatural Iron Fist-style fighters like fodder, they are all portrayed as some of the most dangerous characters in the series, and so it’s quite a high accomplishment that Snake’s skills and tactics always prove superior to them. This is probably due to David’s extreme natural aptitude for combat and warfare; he is one of the biggest Blood Knights that I know of, and those instincts coupled with his will power likely contribute a lot to his abilities.

So with that in mind, here is my conclusion: Iron Fist is the better martial artist, but Solid Snake is the better combatant. Iron Fist can probably do more and accomplish a lot more with his skills, but when it comes to an actual fight, he can not match David’s instinctual aptitude for combat and warfare, always finding a way to win by any means neccessary. David might not be able to manipulate chi or use advanced pressure points, but at the end of the day his combat feats really are just better. David’s close combat skills are so advanced that he is even able to contend with and actually defeat 100 tonners just through sheer skill. Most of his opponents are actually better than him on-paper, like Liquid and Ocelot, they were both more skilled and had better genes, just like most would say Iron Fist is more skilled, but David finds a way to beat them anyway. Iron Fist isn’t able to do that. Taskmaster is considered one of the best fighters in Marvel by sheer virtue of his unique ability to learn skills simply by seeing them, and yet for a Metal Gear character like Revolver Ocelot, learning skills by simple observation is just a passive ability, he’s so intelligent that it’s not even a big deal for him, and the same goes for Snake, he’s forced into situations where he needs to actively adapt his style and tactics all the time. Again people on Comic Vine need to learn the difference between actual fighting skills and just martial arts, I’m sure that Iron Fist has a lot more examples of his knowledge compared to Snake, but knowledge is not skill, Snake is such a good FIGHTER that he can actually speedblitz opponents physically identical to himself before they can react. If Iron Fist were in that situation, knowing where a specific pressure point is wouldn’t help him at all, his opponents are physically identical to him after all so they would have been able to react and shoot him. Snake is a good FIGHTER because he knows the exact move to make at the exact right time to surprise his opponent, the exact move to make that they will be unable to counter, thus subverting physicals entirely. Hence, Iron Fist is the better martial artist, Snake is the better fighter.

This is all backed up by the fact that Iron Fist has never been portrayed as wildly superior to any of the other Marvel fighters like Daredevil, Wolverine, and Captain America, who are all more grounded like Snake and don’t use super-advanced, supernatural chi martial arts. So if Iron Fist is specifically portrayed as pretty comparable to those guys, what is stopping Snake from also matching him?

To all of you doubters, let me ask you this: what exactly separates Iron Fist from someone like Vamp? I mean okay they are very different characters, but their capabilities are very similar. I would even say that feat-for-feat Vamp is better, and that’s saying a lot considering his extreme lack of screentime (two appearances, a total of only nine cutscenes, and only ever fought two different people on-screen and then some fodder). Yet despite that he has done things that Iron Fist never could; his martial arts techniques are so advanced that most people mistake him for a legitimate supernatural vampire. Iron Fist meditates on a floor surrounded by candles to summon his chi in archetypical monk fashion, but Vamp can somehow sit down in water and meditate over the surface. I’ve never seen Iron Fist use a technique as advanced as shadow binding effectively, where Vamp needs to be skillful enough to actually hypnotize his opponent in the middle of combat, through a combination of specific movements and the subtle light reflecting off his blade, while simultaneously dodging bullets and using the same blade to deflect bullets. Basically he was skillful enough to fit the specific movements he needed for the hypnotism into his bullet dodging pattern, and also deflect bullets off his knife while being precise enough to simultaneously reflect the precise lighting back at Raiden, then in order to finish the technique he needed to tag a casual bullet timer’s shadow with his throwing knife. Bam, the opponent is somehow paralyzed. Not to mention on top of all this, Vamp can read his opponent’s muscle movements, which adds a whole host of advantages.

To top it all off Vamp can not only move at imperceptible speeds, but he is a multi-thousand tonner. Pardon my french, but holy f*ck! Oh and he also has a healing factor making him effectively immortal. How are you supposed to beat this guy?

Yet despite all of this, Solid goddamn steal-yo-gurl mother F’ing Snake, when he was an old man no less, was such a MONSTROUSLY skilled fighter that he took Vamp on head-to-head, and actually managed to restrain him with his CQC techniques, then cleverly nullified his healing factor with nanomachine suppressants. Afterwards Snake would have finished Vamp off right then and there, but Raiden showed up and wanted the kill for himself, while Old Snake became too busy fighting off a battalion of Suicide Gekko singlehandedly (albeit he used weapons of course). Regardless, I think that is enough to prove Snake can beat Vamp, especially considering the comics actually gave them a more traditional fight, where Snake was young, but restricted from using his CQC techniques and had to rely on the inferior, striking-based CQB techniques, meaning he couldn’t use the same hold on Vamp to win easily. But he won that anyway by nearly severing Vamp’s head with just his combat knife.

It is very important to keep in mind that Snake beat Vamp without getting touched at all. He is an avoidance expert, due in one part to the nature of his CQC techniques, which involves a lot of joint control and throwing, and due in second part to his advanced reflexes and agility. Ergo, Iron Fist will struggle to land any hits on Snake as well, and this isn’t lowballing Iron Fist, it will simply be like Iron Fist’s first fight with Daredevil where neither managed to land a single finger on the other, except since Snake is more skilled than Daredevil he will eventually get his hands on Danny, and since CQC is such a powerful fighting style augmented by Snake’s own extreme strength, I don’t exaggerate when I say a single CQC slam might be enough to incapacitate Iron Fist. Superhumans have been incapacitated by the CQC slam, after all. If Iron Fist DOES manage to tag Snake, it won’t do much, Snake is a brick wall, his damage soak is far superior to Iron Fist’s and therefore he can outlast Danny if worst comes to worst. Iron Fist would need chi to down Snake before Snake downs him.

So what about round 2? Well I’m willing to admit, even though I see Snake winning round 1, I completely understand if somebody thinks Iron Fist wins… However round 2 on the other hand is a clear-cut victory, Snake would just shoot Danny while fending off his martial arts attacks with CQC. No, I’m not lowballing Iron Fist, I know he has super speed, and I know it sounds like I’m making it out to be too easy, but trust me, it really is that simple. Snake has indeed made more difficult shots than against Iron Fist.

tl;dr

R1 - Snake 9/10 w/ stealth. Snake 6/10 w/o stealth

R2 - Snake 9/10

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#41 Edited by Wyldsong (9577 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

it will simply be like Iron Fist’s first fight with Daredevil where neither managed to land a single finger on the other

I just simply don't feel like going through all of the post, and pointing things out, maybe tomorrow if I get through my three CaV posts, but this here...are you talking the really old fight prior to modern incarnations of Danny, or the one where Danny restricted himself to fighting in Daredevil's own style?

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#42 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:

@nickzambuto:

it will simply be like Iron Fist’s first fight with Daredevil where neither managed to land a single finger on the other

I just simply don't feel like going through all of the post, and pointing things out, maybe tomorrow if I get through my three CaV posts, but this here...are you talking the really old fight prior to modern incarnations of Danny, or the one where Danny restricted himself to fighting in Daredevil's own style?

Well I knew that would be an unpopular opinion, I think it's logical though. You don't need to act so superior about it.

The fight happened in Daredevil #178. If you consider that an outdated showing, it doesn't change my point, I was saying that since Snake rarely if ever gets hit at all, then Iron Fist will likewise struggle to hit him, and I backed that up with a notable fight Iron Fist had against a fighter similar to Snake (as in a grounded martial artist who doesn't delve into the supernatural chi stuff)

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#43 Posted by colliderz (4756 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: Snake in a good fight

Round 2: Danny

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#44 Edited by Wyldsong (9577 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:
@wyldsong said:

@nickzambuto:

it will simply be like Iron Fist’s first fight with Daredevil where neither managed to land a single finger on the other

I just simply don't feel like going through all of the post, and pointing things out, maybe tomorrow if I get through my three CaV posts, but this here...are you talking the really old fight prior to modern incarnations of Danny, or the one where Danny restricted himself to fighting in Daredevil's own style?

Well I knew that would be an unpopular opinion, I think it's logical though. You don't need to act so superior about it.

The fight happened in Daredevil #178. If you consider that an outdated showing, it doesn't change my point, I was saying that since Snake rarely if ever gets hit at all, then Iron Fist will likewise struggle to hit him, and I backed that up with a notable fight Iron Fist had against a fighter similar to Snake (as in a grounded martial artist who doesn't delve into the supernatural chi stuff)

Not trying to act superior, but I am stating the fact that old showings don't bear much fruit when the character in contention has improved (issue 178 was what, in 1982?), and then a showing where he restricts himself doesn't do much either...

I won't argue too hard for round 1 because it is hard to argue a character without chi whose entire lineup of showings involves chi (excluding his training as a child), so I won't argue a peak human versus Snake, but round 2...you have a passion for MSG, and I have seen that time and time again in threads you participate in that involve them. For one, I am not sold on MSG and the power levels being portrayed. Never have been, and there is a reason I don't argue video game characters versus comic book ones, since there is quite often a muddled area between game mechanics, actual story, and PIS.

In hand to hand, Danny can turn a punch into an AoE with ease...

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#45 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:
@nickzambuto said:
@wyldsong said:

@nickzambuto:

it will simply be like Iron Fist’s first fight with Daredevil where neither managed to land a single finger on the other

I just simply don't feel like going through all of the post, and pointing things out, maybe tomorrow if I get through my three CaV posts, but this here...are you talking the really old fight prior to modern incarnations of Danny, or the one where Danny restricted himself to fighting in Daredevil's own style?

Well I knew that would be an unpopular opinion, I think it's logical though. You don't need to act so superior about it.

The fight happened in Daredevil #178. If you consider that an outdated showing, it doesn't change my point, I was saying that since Snake rarely if ever gets hit at all, then Iron Fist will likewise struggle to hit him, and I backed that up with a notable fight Iron Fist had against a fighter similar to Snake (as in a grounded martial artist who doesn't delve into the supernatural chi stuff)

Not trying to act superior, but I am stating the fact that old showings don't bear much fruit when the character in contention has improved (issue 178 was what, in 1982?), and then a showing where he restricts himself doesn't do much either...

I won't argue too hard for round 1 because it is hard to argue a character without chi whose entire lineup of showings involves chi (excluding his training as a child), so I won't argue a peak human versus Snake, but round 2...you have a passion for MSG, and I have seen that time and time again in threads you participate in that involve them. For one, I am not sold on MSG and the power levels being portrayed. Never have been, and there is a reason I don't argue video game characters versus comic book ones, since there is quite often a muddled area between game mechanics, actual story, and PIS.

In hand to hand, Danny can turn a punch into an AoE with ease...

Just to elaborate on my original point, I was saying that during his fight with Iron Fist it is likely that Snake will be tagged rarely, which is good because considering his damage soak, in conjunction with his avoidance abilities, it will take Iron Fist a very long time to put Snake down.

Now, what exactly are you doubting in regards to MGS characters' abilities? Are the feats I listed of fighting 100 tonners and mastering whole styles of combat through observation not good enough, or are you looking for something else?

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#46 Edited by Wyldsong (9577 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

Just to elaborate on my original point, I was saying that during his fight with Iron Fist it is likely that Snake will be tagged rarely, which is good because considering his damage soak, in conjunction with his avoidance abilities, it will take Iron Fist a very long time to put Snake down.

Now, what exactly are you doubting in regards to MGS characters' abilities? Are the feats I listed of fighting 100 tonners and mastering whole styles of combat through observation not good enough, or are you looking for something else?

Danny has laid out class 100s and shredded vibranium armor...getting tagged once is probably more than enough in round 2, but he can always make with the AoE action. I mean, there is more that I could break down, dealing with his fights with the likes of Cap/Wolverine/et al (people he would hold back on and old showings for some of the mentions), Danny facing and overcoming foes without the chi of Shou Lao and facing people who were his equal and above (one of them even had the Shou Lao chi that Danny had to take back), and so on...but I just honestly don't feel like it. I don't debate much on the boards anymore because it has become a chore, and even entering into this one dealing with video game characters...that is about akin to dealing with manga characters in a debate. There are problems in your assessment when it comes to Danny, a lot of them, and the Daredevil portion is just one prime example of these issues.

As for my problems with MGS characters...yeah, too numerous to list, so we will just say all of it. I will remain forever skeptical when it comes to video game characters thanks to blurred lines between story and game mechanics. You have those that believe they are as powerful as you seem to believe, and those that don't. I have read the arguments numerous times over for both sides in various threads, and I remain unconvinced.

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#47 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:
@nickzambuto said:

Just to elaborate on my original point, I was saying that during his fight with Iron Fist it is likely that Snake will be tagged rarely, which is good because considering his damage soak, in conjunction with his avoidance abilities, it will take Iron Fist a very long time to put Snake down.

Now, what exactly are you doubting in regards to MGS characters' abilities? Are the feats I listed of fighting 100 tonners and mastering whole styles of combat through observation not good enough, or are you looking for something else?

Danny has laid out class 100s and shredded vibranium armor...getting tagged once is probably more than enough in round 2, but he can always make with the AoE action. I mean, there is more that I could break down, dealing with his fights with the likes of Cap/Wolverine/et al (people he would hold back on and old showings for some of the mentions), Danny facing and overcoming foes without the chi of Shou Lao and facing people who were his equal and above (one of them even had the Shou Lao chi that Danny had to take back), and so on...but I just honestly don't feel like it. I don't debate much on the boards anymore because it has become a chore, and even entering into this one dealing with video game characters...that is about akin to dealing with manga characters in a debate. There are problems in your assessment when it comes to Danny, a lot of them, and the Daredevil portion is just one prime example of these issues.

As for my problems with MGS characters...yeah, too numerous to list, so we will just say all of it. I will remain forever skeptical when it comes to video game characters thanks to blurred lines between story and game mechanics. You have those that believe they are as powerful as you seem to believe, and those that don't. I have read the arguments numerous times over for both sides in various threads, and I remain unconvinced.

Danny has laid out class 100s with his chi, Snake battles them through sheer skill. If you don't feel like debating, then I guess I don't have much to say. I'm sorry we don't see eye to eye here.

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#48 Edited by Wyldsong (9577 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:
@wyldsong said:
@nickzambuto said:

Just to elaborate on my original point, I was saying that during his fight with Iron Fist it is likely that Snake will be tagged rarely, which is good because considering his damage soak, in conjunction with his avoidance abilities, it will take Iron Fist a very long time to put Snake down.

Now, what exactly are you doubting in regards to MGS characters' abilities? Are the feats I listed of fighting 100 tonners and mastering whole styles of combat through observation not good enough, or are you looking for something else?

Danny has laid out class 100s and shredded vibranium armor...getting tagged once is probably more than enough in round 2, but he can always make with the AoE action. I mean, there is more that I could break down, dealing with his fights with the likes of Cap/Wolverine/et al (people he would hold back on and old showings for some of the mentions), Danny facing and overcoming foes without the chi of Shou Lao and facing people who were his equal and above (one of them even had the Shou Lao chi that Danny had to take back), and so on...but I just honestly don't feel like it. I don't debate much on the boards anymore because it has become a chore, and even entering into this one dealing with video game characters...that is about akin to dealing with manga characters in a debate. There are problems in your assessment when it comes to Danny, a lot of them, and the Daredevil portion is just one prime example of these issues.

As for my problems with MGS characters...yeah, too numerous to list, so we will just say all of it. I will remain forever skeptical when it comes to video game characters thanks to blurred lines between story and game mechanics. You have those that believe they are as powerful as you seem to believe, and those that don't. I have read the arguments numerous times over for both sides in various threads, and I remain unconvinced.

Danny has laid out class 100s with his chi, Snake battles them through sheer skill. If you don't feel like debating, then I guess I don't have much to say. I'm sorry we don't see eye to eye here.

Snake battles them with skill and gear, I've seen the videos. They both use a little something extra with their skill. That tank Snake faced, Danny would have one shot it (he has laid out armored mechs, armored helicopters, flying ships, helicarriers, trains, and so on)...so yeah, we don't see eye to eye, but once I can get some CaV posts finished, then maybe I will come back to this and we can discuss it further my friend=)

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#49 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:
@nickzambuto said:
@wyldsong said:
@nickzambuto said:

Just to elaborate on my original point, I was saying that during his fight with Iron Fist it is likely that Snake will be tagged rarely, which is good because considering his damage soak, in conjunction with his avoidance abilities, it will take Iron Fist a very long time to put Snake down.

Now, what exactly are you doubting in regards to MGS characters' abilities? Are the feats I listed of fighting 100 tonners and mastering whole styles of combat through observation not good enough, or are you looking for something else?

Danny has laid out class 100s and shredded vibranium armor...getting tagged once is probably more than enough in round 2, but he can always make with the AoE action. I mean, there is more that I could break down, dealing with his fights with the likes of Cap/Wolverine/et al (people he would hold back on and old showings for some of the mentions), Danny facing and overcoming foes without the chi of Shou Lao and facing people who were his equal and above (one of them even had the Shou Lao chi that Danny had to take back), and so on...but I just honestly don't feel like it. I don't debate much on the boards anymore because it has become a chore, and even entering into this one dealing with video game characters...that is about akin to dealing with manga characters in a debate. There are problems in your assessment when it comes to Danny, a lot of them, and the Daredevil portion is just one prime example of these issues.

As for my problems with MGS characters...yeah, too numerous to list, so we will just say all of it. I will remain forever skeptical when it comes to video game characters thanks to blurred lines between story and game mechanics. You have those that believe they are as powerful as you seem to believe, and those that don't. I have read the arguments numerous times over for both sides in various threads, and I remain unconvinced.

Danny has laid out class 100s with his chi, Snake battles them through sheer skill. If you don't feel like debating, then I guess I don't have much to say. I'm sorry we don't see eye to eye here.

Snake battles them with skill and gear, I've seen the videos. They both use a little something extra with their skill. That tank Snake faced, Danny would have one shot it (he has laid out armored mechs, armored helicopters, flying ships, helicarriers, trains, and so on)...so yeah, we don't see eye to eye, but once I can get some CaV posts finished, then maybe I will come back to this and we can discuss it further my friend=)

Well that really isn't a good comparison to make, this is why ABC logic doesn't work. Iron Fist's ability to oneshot whereas Snake had a harder time has no bearing on how he would perform against Snake, because Iron Fist could oneshot a tank through his unique skill, chi. There are two separate rounds in this thread and we should look at them separately; the first is H2H, and Snake has plenty of H2H feats without gear, and the second includes gear where we would use things like the tank feat. Let me know when you've got some free time and maybe we can work something out.

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#50 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:
@beaconofstrength said:

@jashro44:

trained to fight based on air currents which isn't a method of sensing snake has shown he can counter to my knowledge.

Grey Fox was confirmed to have that ability and Snake was able to stalk and sneak up on him. And Big Boss, while never stated, seemed to have a similar skill.

I stand corrected but Gray Fox was unstable when he fought snake.

Grey Fox fought Snake before he became a Cyborg Ninja, and still had super Human stats like his Null Self. Just saying. Snake beaten Gray Fox in two games, and grey fox was superior in both games in stats.

@wyldsong said:
@nickzambuto said:

Just to elaborate on my original point, I was saying that during his fight with Iron Fist it is likely that Snake will be tagged rarely, which is good because considering his damage soak, in conjunction with his avoidance abilities, it will take Iron Fist a very long time to put Snake down.

Now, what exactly are you doubting in regards to MGS characters' abilities? Are the feats I listed of fighting 100 tonners and mastering whole styles of combat through observation not good enough, or are you looking for something else?

Danny has laid out class 100s and shredded vibranium armor...getting tagged once is probably more than enough in round 2, but he can always make with the AoE action. I mean, there is more that I could break down, dealing with his fights with the likes of Cap/Wolverine/et al (people he would hold back on and old showings for some of the mentions), Danny facing and overcoming foes without the chi of Shou Lao and facing people who were his equal and above (one of them even had the Shou Lao chi that Danny had to take back), and so on...but I just honestly don't feel like it. I don't debate much on the boards anymore because it has become a chore, and even entering into this one dealing with video game characters...that is about akin to dealing with manga characters in a debate. There are problems in your assessment when it comes to Danny, a lot of them, and the Daredevil portion is just one prime example of these issues.

As for my problems with MGS characters...yeah, too numerous to list, so we will just say all of it. I will remain forever skeptical when it comes to video game characters thanks to blurred lines between story and game mechanics. You have those that believe they are as powerful as you seem to believe, and those that don't. I have read the arguments numerous times over for both sides in various threads, and I remain unconvinced.

Please do read my arguments for Solid Snake and his feats as well those he fought in my CaV with Ghostravage. The lines may be blur by game mechanics, but thankfully two Digital Graphic Novel formats and tons of cutscenes really do MGS justice to figuring it out.