Solid Snake and Big Boss vs Spiderman

So you feel Spidey is less than Mach? Im being called a low baller, but I state Spidey is Mach speed.

"How am I lowballing again mate? Spider Man is Mach 1 area. Mach 2 at best in travel speed. Nothing low balling about this!? I think you realize I have a point and dont like it." Sirfizzwhizz

Just in case you do not believe, this is a direct quote from Sirfizzwhizz. As you can see, stating that Spider-Man is a mach 1 to 2 at best.

Thanks.

Spiderman in a tough scrape.

Either one can give Spiderman a fight 1v1 but probably lose against Spidey. But theirs no way Spiderman is beating two Snakes.

@sirfizzwhizz: No problem.

Exactly.

If Snake can tag Vamp with his guns he can tag Peter, Vamp is casually on Raiden's level of combat speed, as for travel speed

Vamp is FTE.

@danieldaripper said:

If Snake can tag Vamp with his guns he can tag Peter, Vamp is casually on Raiden's level of combat speed, as for travel speed

Vamp is FTE.

Yup.

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@sirfizzwhizz

Snake sniped Vamp while Vamp wasn't paying attention. When snake fought him directly he couldn't shoot Vamp. The scans with gray fox confirm my argument that snake couldn't tag gray fox. Fox states the weapon is useless to him. Snake couldn't find a way to shoot him.

Shooting the cable is pretty cool but its also kind of standard in main stream comics. To be honest I'll argue spider-man himself has better feats than snake in accuracy (this isn't an insult, spider-man is genuinely pretty accurate with his webs and other objects).

What do you define as blitzing? Because in the scans I posted spider-man is rushing a group of bullet timers and hitting them with pressure points before they can react. Snake taking hits from gray fox is no different than any other street leveler taking a hit from an hundred+ tonner. And being sent skidding across the floor meters away isn't very impressive.

Ocelot and Liquid might not be regular soldiers but they pretty much prove you don't need to be an hundred tonner to hurt snake. Snake taking hits from gray fox doesn't prove he can take a serious hit from spider-man:

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Snake can take hits from spider-man here because spider-man is holding back. But morals is the only thing preventing Peter from one shotting the two snakes.

Well hard to argue for the cqc thing but its also hard for spidey not to get a hard time from them because cqc can also be done while holding a gun and a knife. If their option isn't the throw him around then they can cut him up or shoot him.

Shooting spider-man isn't easy. He was the most agile and mobile street leveler in main stream comics. From what I understand CQC uses a knife by first restraining the target in a hold and than using the knife to stab them, but due to spider-man's over whelming strength I don't see that working.

As bullet timers too they are able to keep up. Actually Solid has done more than just dodge a bullet. He dodged railgun fire being twice as fast as a bullet without knowing where it was shot from making it all the more impressive. It was seen in his battle against crying wolf.

When snake dodged the rail gun he was quite the distance away from the shooter. The scene isn't slowed down in bullet time like his fight with Olga when he dodged her bullet so I think its safe to say this scene was in real time. In which case it took about 3 seconds for the bullet to reach snake.

Well take a shotgun for example or even a sniper or a p90. As evident from the fight against Vamp he can literally block your bullets and on some occasions wouldn't be able to. The thing is Solid doesn't just shoot when he wants to shoot. He waits for the right moment.

I don't understand why Vamp is being referenced? Unless we are using feats from the comics snake never defeated Vamp. He did inject him with nanites some how during metal gear solid 4 but that was never really shown during a cut scene. We don't know how snake did it which makes the feat hard to use. The one time Vamp did fight snake during his prime Vamp won:

Take for example when he was in the helicopter trying to get some shots off on Solidous. Solidous blocked all those shots then proceeded to use the grenade launcher to get him out of position and uses it again then he was out of the battlefield. Instead of aiming for Spiderman's face he can always aim for his gut. He can assess certain movements hence he was always able to tag bullet timers. Take his fight with Grey Fox for example though Grey Fox would have killed him on the spot. When Fox would strike Snake's face Snake already had a gun up to his face hence the fight was over.

I don't remember snake tagging either Solidus or Gray Fox with bullets?

Take Big Boss against his fight with the Boss. The Boss had legitimate bullet timing feats and her own gun was much stronger hence her guns outshoot Snake's own guns so to never reach her at all. One of those options to beat her is by outperforming his own mentor in CQC or to catch her off guard and shoot her. If you weren't the player you would have already known those possibilities of catching them off guard.

IIRC you need to use stealth which wont work on spider-man due to spider-sense. Or you need use CQC to beat her, however the boss defeated big boss several times earlier in the story line using CQC. So I assume canonically Big Boss used stealth to beat her. Even if he did use CQC I have already explained why Peter's unique fighting style counters CQC.

With experience its hard to even doubt that Snake won't catch Spidey off guard. If I remember correctly someone said that a CQC example would be that if someone punched you in the face you would have already kicked them in the balls and a knife ready up your throat or something like that.

Thats not something limited to just CQC but fighting in general. Its how you control a fight.

Edit: About Markmanship he was able to shoot thin wire on a moving helicopter to help Raiden escape. That is just one example.

Does snake have feats against moving targets? Its a good shot but its a shot against a stationary object.

@jashro44: Don't want to contest your entire post, since I'm on the fence about who'd win, but just want to point something out.

When snake dodged the rail gun he was quite the distance away from the shooter. The scene isn't slowed down in bullet time like his fight with Olga when he dodged her bullet so I think its safe to say this scene was in real time. In which case it took about 3 seconds for the bullet to reach snake.

MGS2 had slow motion, MGS4 did not - the Ocelot Cigar CQC scene proves there isn't slow motion featured in MGS4. This argument doesn't hold very well, considering the slow motion rules aren't static for each game.

Well there was a bit of slow motion when Ocelot threw the cigar. The fight scene wasn't done in slow motion but that would have been kind of awkward IMO. I don't think I've ever seen an entire fight done in slow motion unless its something like a fight that lasts 3 seconds.

@jashro44: I'm not talking about that, in his boss fight the only way to stick Vamp with the syringe is if you shoot Vamp enough.

@jashro44: I guess it slowed down kind of, but it still shows slow motion weren't used for action scenes like they did for MGS2. The comparison with the bullet dodging doesn't hold imo - especially considering even during MGS2, there were multiple bullet-timing instances that weren't slowed down.

Do we have any details how the fight in metal gear solid 4 happened? How do we know Vamp didn't just tank attacks? I guess you could argue that is uncharacteristic of vamp but it would be nice if someone had a quote from a secondary source like the novel....

Agree to disagree. Personally I think there just wasn't any slow mo in metal gear solid 4 because it wasn't necessary except to show the cigar falling. And I would say the reason why that scene wasn't in slow mo was because Snake and Ocelot were probably fighting as a blur/faster than the eye. So they probably showed the cigar in slowmo, and than showed snake and ocelots speed relative to to the cigar. Other scenes never really required slow mo.

@jashro44:

Snake sniped Vamp while Vamp wasn't paying attention. When snake fought him directly he couldn't shoot Vamp.

And? Punisher Shotgun Spidey at close range, super close, and had to study Spider man to tag him at all. So balances out in excuses. However, we do see Old Snake tagging Vamps with bullets alot in the 4th game. We know this as you get a codec call when Vamp gets shot to hell or blown to hell and keeps getting back up.

So I say tagging Vamp is something Snake did do.

The scans with gray fox confirm my argument that snake couldn't tag gray fox. Fox states the weapon is useless to him. Snake couldn't find a way to shoot him.

Of Course they never tag Fox, they were always on target though. dead on target which Fox could not dodge like other gunshots.

Shooting the cable is pretty cool but its also kind of standard in main stream comics. To be honest I'll argue spider-man himself has better feats than snake in accuracy (this isn't an insult, spider-man is genuinely pretty accurate with his webs and other objects).

I agree. Spider man has done crazy shit accuracy wise. But Snake is damn good marksmen as is Boss.

What do you define as blitzing? Because in the scans I posted spider-man is rushing a group of bullet timers and hitting them with pressure points before they can react. Snake taking hits from gray fox is no different than any other street leveler taking a hit from an hundred+ tonner. And being sent skidding across the floor meters away isn't very impressive.

While I still feel Snake is fighting a holding back Grey Fox, or maybe the fact is Fox is not striking at 500 tons only lifting wise. Either way, Snake kept up in speed.

Ocelot and Liquid might not be regular soldiers but they pretty much prove you don't need to be an hundred tonner to hurt snake. Snake taking hits from gray fox doesn't prove he can take a serious hit from spider-man:

I think he could take a serious hit. I mean, Spider man is not punching hard than the kinetic force of these tank shells exploding IMO.

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Both Twin Snakes and Comic of the same feat. Snake took this, shrug it off, and finish the several hours of mission ahead of him.

Snake can take hits from spider-man here because spider-man is holding back. But morals is the only thing preventing Peter from one shotting the two snakes.

I question that. One shotting anyway.

Shooting spider-man isn't easy. He was the most agile and mobile street leveler in main stream comics. From what I understand CQC uses a knife by first restraining the target in a hold and than using the knife to stab them, but due to spider-man's over whelming strength I don't see that working.

CQC has strikes, stabs, and throws as well. Not only that Snake is not limited by CQC. Boss maybe, but not Snake who never used CQC till fighting CQC foes. He and boss can also use gun and such in close combat.

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Does it all the time.

When snake dodged the rail gun he was quite the distance away from the shooter. The scene isn't slowed down in bullet time like his fight with Olga when he dodged her bullet so I think its safe to say this scene was in real time. In which case it took about 3 seconds for the bullet to reach snake.

How does it take 3 seconds for a Mach 3-5 projectile to reach him? The shot was only 100 yards away.

I don't understand why Vamp is being referenced? Unless we are using feats from the comics snake never defeated Vamp. He did inject him with nanites some how during metal gear solid 4 but that was never really shown during a cut scene. We don't know how snake did it which makes the feat hard to use. The one time Vamp did fight snake during his prime Vamp won:

This too.

Snake never beat Vamp? He did too. In one effective counter attack. though not with range but with speed and skill.

Vampt tries to blitz, Snake dodges the worse of it, then gets slam into the wall. Snake plays dumb, counter attacks and owns Vamp in three moves.

I don't remember snake tagging either Solidus or Gray Fox with bullets?

Snake tag Gray Fox in CQC and tagged Soldus in a sword fight with Swords. Not a range feat but speed, reaction, and skill.

Does snake have feats against moving targets? Its a good shot but its a shot against a stationary object.

Snake has tag fine Sniper Wolf on the fly too. As for moving targets only Fox (who deflected said shots), and Vamp (4th game) in terms of range. Though the thin wire is not stationary. Snake was flying in a circle, so nothing stationary about a Helicopter moving up and down, shaking, and moving several miles a hour in a circle. Damn good feat.

@sirfizzwhizz:

And? Punisher Shotgun Spidey at close range, super close, and had to study Spider man to tag him at all. So balances out in excuses. However, we do see Old Snake tagging Vamps with bullets alot in the 4th game. We know this as you get a codec call when Vamp gets shot to hell or blown to hell and keeps getting back up.

So I say tagging Vamp is something Snake did do.

I am a bit confused with how game play feats are suppose to be used. I remember arguing in another thread that Gene gets tired quickly after using his powers because that is what happens during the boss fight but I was told that isn't canon because it never happened in a cut scene. I feel the same reasoning should apply here. Snake fought Vamp during a cut scene and couldn't shoot him, and also lost.

The other issue with using game play is we have no context as to what happened. Its like me using an off panel feat to justify a comic character IMO. As for punisher shooting spider-man, he rolled and seemed to know exactly where spider-man was going to land. He caught peter on a battle landing. Its a good showing of Franks tactical ability and shows he can predict spider-man (which makes sense since he studied him so well) which is why spider-man failed.

Of Course they never tag Fox, they were always on target though. dead on target which Fox could not dodge like other gunshots.

In those scans it doesn't look like gray fox is trying to move out of the way. Just because he decided to cut snakes bullets out of the air doesn't mean he can't dodge them.

While I still feel Snake is fighting a holding back Grey Fox, or maybe the fact is Fox is not striking at 500 tons only lifting wise. Either way, Snake kept up in speed.

OK.

I think he could take a serious hit. I mean, Spider man is not punching hard than the kinetic force of these tank shells exploding IMO.

Both Twin Snakes and Comic of the same feat. Snake took this, shrug it off, and finish the several hours of mission ahead of him.

The problem with these feats is snake isn't being hit by the tank shell. He's not even inside the explosion. He is basically being knocked around by the shock wave of the explosion which is pretty standard in fiction (realistically he should be getting hit by shrapnel but that is usually ignored). That isn't the same thing as taking a devastating punch to the face from someone as capable as spider-man.

Also spider-man has hit harder than a motar shell for the record.

CQC has strikes, stabs, and throws as well. Not only that Snake is not limited by CQC. Boss maybe, but not Snake who never used CQC till fighting CQC foes. He and boss can also use gun and such in close combat.

Eh, maybe I need a refresher on my metal gear lore. I've been avoiding these threads for so long. I remember CQC focusing on the transition between weapons, and focusing on holds and throws when snake is unarmed. There are a few strikes but there are mostly a lot of holds and throws. Regardless I think the fact that snake would be limited to just strikes should be a disadvantage.

How does it take 3 seconds for a Mach 3-5 projectile to reach him? The shot was only 100 yards away.

That is what happens in the video though...

Snake never beat Vamp? He did too. In one effective counter attack. though not with range but with speed and skill.

I don't view the comic as canon. In the game Raidain beat Vamp.

Snake tag Gray Fox in CQC and tagged Soldus in a sword fight with Swords. Not a range feat but speed, reaction, and skill.

I specifically said "with bullets". We were talking about snakes skills with a gun.

Snake has tag fine Sniper Wolf on the fly too. As for moving targets only Fox (who deflected said shots), and Vamp (4th game) in terms of range.

Isn't sniper wolfs thing being the greatest sniper in universe (with the exception of snake?) She isn't really similar to spider-man unless I am missing something.

Though the thin wire is not stationary. Snake was flying in a circle, so nothing stationary about a Helicopter moving up and down, shaking, and moving several miles a hour in a circle. Damn good feat.

The wire was stationary, snake wasn't. It is a good feat. So is tagging shadowland daredevil, iron fist, deadpool. So is tagging a moving space capsule.

@zackg: I never contradicted myself. Or you mean when I said Fox didn't beat him but he can kill him. First you want to understand the story that Fox wanted a fight and he wanted to feel pain. He didn't want to hold back but he lost the fight when Snake pointed a gun at his face. He would actually survive a shot but the thing is he lost even with a cyborg body. If he was a regular soldier like he was back then he would have actually lost hard. Fox wanted to fight, he didn't necessarily want to kill. In a way they fought fair and square with the best of their abilities which proves Snake can keep up with anyone with the likes of Fox. Even as a regular soldier in portable ops even he was a bullet timer who still got beat by Big Boss. And why are you saying Tony Stark is more experienced. I remember him being beat by much worse. What did Tony Stark do which is more impressive than any of the Snake's. Don't give me what he did with tech give me what he did in comparison as a soldier. Like what odds did he face. He is always in his Iron suit to do his job while neither Snakes need it.

@red_ruby_petal: eh nope i gotta correct you here Fox Nerfed himself for Snake's fist fight this is extremely evident in the Metal gear Rex scene via his strength, speed and durability he also reveals he wanted Snake to kill him he never had the intention of killing Snake as a cyborg he just wanted to die after having a nostalgic fist fight with Snake.

@sainguinexshadow: But it never got to the point where Fox was never trying. He didn't want to kill Snake but never would he see Snake die to such simple moves either. He did try but didn't exactly get the best of Snake.

@red_ruby_petal: he fought Snake with nearly the same physicals that he fought him on Zanzibar, if Fox wanted to he would have killed Snake with ridiculous ease.

Spidey wins, it's not even fair.

STRENGTH: If either Snake or Big Boss even get tagged, they're dead. I don't care how inconsistent Spidey's strength is portrayed, team ain't surviving a punch to the head that has 50% power put into it, much less a kick, a knee, or an elbow. Heck, team would be lucky if they got KO'ed by a headbutt from Spidey and didn't die instantly.

INCAPACITATION: Disarm from 50 feet away? No problem. Can't disarm them? Shoot a web down the barrel of the gun or the RPG. Don't want to go for the gun? Web the eyes. Eyes not enough? Web the legs together, maybe push them over or pull his legs out from under them. Could do this to the hands too. Want to get it over with quickly? Just web their bodies to a wall, the ceiling, or the ground. (Oh, got to make sure they can still breathe though, so don't web their mouths closed.) Want to toy with them? Grab them with a web and swing them around, maybe BFR, possible concussions, all the good stuff. (But don't swing them around too roughly!) Oh so now he wants to throw a grenade? Just web the grenade to his hands and he won't be able to throw it. Oh, he managed to release the grenade before my web reached his hand? I'll just shoot a web at the grenade in mid-air to slap it back towards him or dodge the grenade and throw it back at him, with or without a web (i.e. Peter vs. Harry in Spider-Man 3, explosion in Harry's face). The possibilities are endless with Spidey's reflexes, IQ, and webs. Let's not even get started on precog.

SPEED: Spidey is not bulletproof, so he will have to be cautious in confronting gunfire head-on. Nonetheless, it is very doable for Spidey and he does this often. Of course, his primary approach would be to disarm, and to disarm fast. And if he's too far to disarm, he must focus on dodging the gunfire until he closes enough distance to disarm [with webs], which is a training drill for him because he does this all the time. When he's far from the shooter, dodging is no problem. When he's too close to dodge, his disarming with webs is no problem. Missiles won't hit Spidey, he's still fast enough to dodge missiles no matter how close he is to the missile firer. Spidey's mobility is incredibly dynamic. He's not just a fast runner, but can leap great distances, is the most agile hero in all of comics, and can stick to any surface he wants. Team couldget dizzy or even fire at each other.

PREP/GUERILLA WARFARE: Spidey's precog cancels sneak attacks, snipers/projectiles, booby traps, the list goes on. If team had a prep advantage, they would need to find a way to use the environment and/or their greater numbers to their advantage. They could use gas, too, but Spidey's reflexes and speed would be enough for him to skedaddle outta there pretty quickly. Their best bet is to trap him and gas him, or attack him with something that can only be avoided with BFR. Since team can't take anything Spidey can dish out, they'd best take him out from a distance and let their prep do all the work. Team would need to prevent BFR for any form of prep to work, which would be an entirely different story/challenge in and of itself. That's the only way they win, but if they can't BFR, Spidey wins 10/10 times.

TL;DR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dPBkEec-88

Yeah yeah, Solid Snake and Big Boss are freaking awesome and have taken down some macho dudes. But keep in mind, Spidey has a reputation for being this kind of guy:

@jashro44:

I am a bit confused with how game play feats are suppose to be used. I remember arguing in another thread that Gene gets tired quickly after using his powers because that is what happens during the boss fight but I was told that isn't canon because it never happened in a cut scene. I feel the same reasoning should apply here. Snake fought Vamp during a cut scene and couldn't shoot him, and also lost.

The other issue with using game play is we have no context as to what happened. Its like me using an off panel feat to justify a comic character IMO. As for punisher shooting spider-man, he rolled and seemed to know exactly where spider-man was going to land. He caught peter on a battle landing. Its a good showing of Franks tactical ability and shows he can predict spider-man (which makes sense since he studied him so well) which is why spider-man failed.

I get itm but at the same time a little common sense. I mean, you believe Snake CQC Vamp so hard that Otocon and Snake had a conversation over it? Not to mention its only triggered when you shoot Vamp up. So its clear he can tag Vamp enough to put him down, and watch him rise over and over again several times. otherwise we should ignore the whole stated cutscene? I dont like that. I also never said shit about Gene, that sounds like Nickzambuto reasoning to me. Though how quick gene tires is up for debate. All I am arguing is a codec call when you shoot Vamp up and he rises is canon, so that must have happen. Somehow, someway he tagged Vamp enough.

In those scans it doesn't look like gray fox is trying to move out of the way. Just because he decided to cut snakes bullets out of the air doesn't mean he can't dodge them.

Now that is a matter of a certain point of view :) From my viewpoint, Spider man is evil! But yeah, you could be right. Though Fox did stop the first battle after Snake had a gun in his face. I think Fox felt even at that close range Snake could not miss.

The problem with these feats is snake isn't being hit by the tank shell. He's not even inside the explosion. He is basically being knocked around by the shock wave of the explosion which is pretty standard in fiction (realistically he should be getting hit by shrapnel but that is usually ignored). That isn't the same thing as taking a devastating punch to the face from someone as capable as spider-man.

He could take blows from Fox fine.

Fox has some decent striking.

Snake has punch both Liquid and ocelot hard enough to generate shockwaves.

Decent strength there.

Also spider-man has hit harder than a motar shell for the record.

Well Mortors are nowhere near tank shells. Were talking small frag grenade to tank shell. I think Snake can tank this for sure to some degree.

He tank this building blast that Fatman laid out for him.

As well the explosive force of a stinger missile only mere feet from him. I think he can take a few blows much like Captain America or even Punisher could from Spidey.

Eh, maybe I need a refresher on my metal gear lore. I've been avoiding these threads for so long. I remember CQC focusing on the transition between weapons, and focusing on holds and throws when snake is unarmed. There are a few strikes but there are mostly a lot of holds and throws. Regardless I think the fact that snake would be limited to just strikes should be a disadvantage.

Yes, CQC is mostly holds, throws, and weapon control in close combat. With few strikes. Still, Snake did not use CQC at all in MG2, MGS, MGS2, up to beginning of MGS4 because it was Big Boss taught him, and Snake refuse to use what his father taught him. That is until others started using it against him when CQC became standard. All those kicks and blows that generate shockwaves in gifs above, and make Cyborg Ninja fell pain is all Snake striking knowledge. Not that I expect this to be hand to hand as Snake should be packing well in gear here with Big Boss.

That is what happens in the video though...

So because they chose to not use slo mo graphics or effects, we ignore a mach 3+ projectile traveling -100 yards? Also what about the video where Ocelot and Snake fought a whole fight before a cigar dropped 3 feet distance to the ground?

I don't view the comic as canon. In the game Raidain beat Vamp.

The comic is stated as canon. Blame Kojima. He made the game for Raiden, but then states the comic is canon and uses said comic as the direct backstory in the MGS4 game for those who never played 1-2 on older PS's. Both are simply valid here. This aint Marvel canon after all.

I specifically said "with bullets". We were talking about snakes skills with a gun.

I know, but you also mention Snake never used blades in close combat when he can and has vs Solidus and Liquid Ocelot. That was my point.

Isn't sniper wolfs thing being the greatest sniper in universe (with the exception of snake?) She isn't really similar to spider-man unless I am missing something.

Just a feat throwing out for accuracy and reaction time. To make a sick shot like that with that stupid amount of flash is pretty impressive marksmen feat to me. punisher level which is what I was still arguing about. Snake being on Punisher accuracy level.

The wire was stationary, snake wasn't. It is a good feat. So is tagging shadowland daredevil, iron fist, deadpool. So is tagging a moving space capsule.

Same as above, talking Punisher accuracy compared to Snake. i view them as near equals enough. It may take many shots to tag Spider Man, but between Boss and Snake, they can pull it off IMO.

@sirfizzwhizz: For the Fatman blast, it was stated in the next issue by Snake that Fatman had placed a specific amount there in order to not kill him.

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A better comparison would be when he literally got shot with an actual tank shell by Vulcan Raven twice, and got up both times to carry on fighting with only superficial damage.

@jashro44: I get that striking and lifting strength is completely different, but when Gray Fox is multiple times stronger than Peter even at high-ends and faster as well with better technique, I think we can safely assume his striking would be better. Even if he doesn't have as many striking feats due to using a sword, there wouldn't really be a logical reason for his striking to not be insane. And he does have things like busting mechanical locks and kicking a section of the ceiling at high speeds. Peter has better striking feats, but I think we just need to use common sense for this. And even if he could hit harder than Gray Fox, I don't see why he would start combat hitting as hard as he possibly can. And after just reviewing their fight, Snake never blocked his kick.

@lubub55:

For the Fatman blast, it was stated in the next issue by Snake that Fatman had placed a specific amount there in order to not kill him.

I know. Still Snake was caught up in that seen on panel and quantifiable blast. As you said, fatman use just enough to not kill.

A better comparison would be when he literally got shot with an actual tank shell by Vulcan Raven twice, and got up both times to carry on fighting with only superficial damage.

I showed those.

@ninjawarrior268: WHY Didn't I think of this thread!!!!!!! It's GENIUS!!!!

@strongtower7: You really underestimate the Snakes.

Just looking at the incredible variety in Solid Snake's feats against different superhumans and impossible situations, it's hard for me to picture Spider-Man being the first and only to just suddenly defeat him with ease. Solid Snake has displayed the adaptability and quick cunning to make this an extremely interesting battle, even on his own. I mean, the man literally doesn't lose 1-v-1 fights, lol. The only fair 1-v-1 fight he ever lost was Liquid Ocelot in MGS4, but Snake still won that rematch. Besides that, he's never lost a 1-v-1. And he's faced plenty of superhumans and high-tech machines to make that fact impressive.

• Destroying a tank while on foot, while armed with nothing but grenades
• Destroying an attack chopper while on foot, in the middle of snowstorm
• Destroying multiple versions of Metal Gear, which are designed to end entire wars, all by himself
• Matched gunfighting skills with an old west gunslinger who specialized in controlling the ricochets of bullets and could shoot down lightning
• Surpassed the greatest sniper in the world at her own game, in a snowstorm and after taking a bullet through the shoulder
• Used stealth and traps to kill an invulnerable Shaman Super Soldier while being chased with a minigun, despite him also being clairvoyant and having supernatural senses not dissimilar from spider sense
• Outsmarted the world's most powerful telepath and telekinetic, who was predicting Snake's every move and using the software of the video game itself against him, by creating tactics that manipulated the console's hardware to mess up his psychic powers
• Defeated a Cyborg Ninja who was many times stronger AND more agile than him, to the point where all weapons and even automatic guns were useless because he could parry every bullet, by throwing away his weapons and just beating him barehanded
• Surpassed his clone twin brother who was genetically designed to be superior and more skilled, in a shirtless bare-knuckle fist fight through nothing but determination
• Repeatedly killed an immortal vampire ninja who had the skills and stats to beat RAIDEN, Raiden couldn't beat him but Old Snake did, multiple times in a row, and even used CQC to grapple and throw him around with ease
• Played hide-n-seek with a female Doctor Octopus who could also actively camouflage herself into the environment to become almost invisible, yet Snake somehow won that contest and killed her
• Was hunted down by a giant cyborg monster wolf in the middle of a snowstorm, along with a whole platoon of heavily equipped enhanced cyborg soldiers all looking for him alone, and somehow turned the whole situation around all alone and used stealth and sniping to start hunting THEM, even though the cyborg wolf was a master sniper, had superhuman senses and could smell Snake from across the field, and was nearly invulnerable.
• Fought the physical and mental amalgamation of his two greatest foes put together singlehandedly, after walking through a corridor of microwaves designed to evaporate him while also being electrocuted and while also having a seizure, and even though this opponent actually outclassed him in skill, he still won the fight anyway, SOMEHOW, just through pure grit and determination

A common element you'll notice is that Snake is literally always outclassed in either technology, power, or numbers, and very often, he's outclassed in all three at once as boss characters are superhumans who also have technological enhancements, and also have a brigade of superhuman, technologically enhanced minions on their side, all at once, and Snake has to deal with all of that all by himself, and not just once or twice, but he has to run a gauntlet of doing it six-eight times over and over again, completely flawlessly, in the course of one night.

Spider-Man is physically superior, sure, but that's never stopped Snake before. Neither have weird, unpredictable powers, Snake thinks of counter-strategies to everything. Wall crawling and webbing aren't going to, like, shock him or anything. He's seen weirder.

@lubub55: @sirfizzwhizz: Everybody is arguing stats and whether Snake is physically powerful enough to tank strikes from Spider-Man and match him in speed, but Snake's victories have not once been reliant on his physical limits. I think arguing silly showings like Snake somehow withstanding missiles and tank shells is irrelevant, especially since the comics and the gamecube remake aren't written or directed by Kojima. A skilled warrior just doesn't take damage, and instead of matching blows to try and wear Spider-Man down with sheer striking power, he would take a select few, well-timed, critical strikes with his weapons for instant damage. So he doesn't have to punch Spider-Man out, he would play defensive in the battle, telegraph Spider-Man's techniques and stay one step ahead of him, then after awhile of playing defensive and feeling everything out, he would plan out the exact moment to strike with a well-placed headshot or slit to the throat. That's it, one move to end the fight. That's more in line with Solid Snake's style of combat, Kojima created him to be clinical and methodical with every move. The gameplay of every game is almost painfully slow, precise, and calculated. He's not some meathead that runs into explosions and overpowers everybody.

Actually, I actually think that if Spider-Man were bloodlusted, or if he went into that zen spider sense instincts mode that he used against Daken, it would be a scenario where Otacon would be telling Snake to just run. I'm just thinking about scenes like when Spider-Man went totally nuts against Shathra, and ruined a whole city block, and that kind of inhuman agility plus power is too much for any normal human to handle. So I'm thinking about this in the context of a Metal Gear game, and I can see a bloodlusted Spider-Man (or a spider sense mode Spider-Man) being the type of boss where your only goal is to run. Normal Spider-Man usually loses to Punisher, but they've had a few encounters where Spider-Man was infuriated and Punisher was fastly overwhelmed, so it would be like that. And there's no shame in that, just escaping such an encounter would be a real testament to Snake's skills, and I think he could do it.

But under normal conditions, Peter Parker isn't a very overwhelming opponent. He's likely to take it easy and also hold back his strength a lot. That's a weakness, Snake is a trained killer, so he never gets overconfident. This is why I picture Spider-Man losing. Every move that Snake makes will be aimed to bring the fight to a quick and decisive end. Spider-Man is going to be too casual and get caught off guard by Snake's deadly efficiency. In fact, I don't think that Spider-Man has ever really fought anybody quite like Snake.

Many times Snake has run into situations he has no control over. Relying on stats, gear, and skill.

• Vamp (Canon Comic)
• Vamp (MGS4)
• All four Beauty and Beast members (MGS4)
• Grey Fox twice (MGS)
• Raven in the Tank (MGS)
• The entire Tengu Unite (MGS2)
• Liquid and Hind D (MGS)
• Liquid in Rex (MGS)
• Liquid himself (MGS)
• Solidus Snake (Canon Comic)

There is more examples, but the fact is Snake been in MANY situations where he had no chance to think it through and had to rely on his skill, gear, and stats. Now, as you said in the underlying does matter, but the underline cannot be done without looking at stats.

However the argument of Solid vs Spidey is pointless as Big Boss who is nearly Snakes equal in every way is here as back up making this near impossible for Spider man to pull any majority.

In what way were any of those battles determined by stats or gear? Snake usually has just the bare essentials of gear to work with, he enters every mission naked and improvises as he goes. The most powerful weapon he'll ever have in the first game is just a Stinger Launcher. He gets some advanced equipment in the fourth game, but the antagonists level up at the same time, so Snake is still always at a severe disadvantage in terms of technology.

It's true that he never has time to prepare and has to adapt to unexpected and changing circumstances on the fly, but that is exactly what makes him so impressive. He never brute forces his way through an unexpected situation with sheer stats. Maybe in the comics or gamecube remake, because apparently those versions gave him ridiculous feats of withstanding missiles (lol) but the way Kojima created Snake, he's all about using his wits and reacting quickly to get through impossible situations.

Everyone is underestimating Pete. Again, HE HAS BEATEN HULK BEFORE. Snake has ZERO chance of that even if you put him in REX. ZERO. Hulk in base form is at least a 20 toner. Sure Fox prevented REX from stepping on Snake, which all together weighs about 500 tons, but that's not just the foot. At most I'd say that feat required 100 tons of lifting. Sure Snake beat Fox, but Fox was holding back, he wanted a fair fight. Him admitting defeat when Snake aimed the gun at his head is stupid. That bullet wouldn't have done jack. Someone above brough up how the Snakes could study him during the fight... That's the worst possible time to do it. Pete is going to keep them distracted with quips and jokes. Plus once he gets close it's all over. Pete once knocked a guy out by TAPPING him on the head. The only was the snakes can win is if we take away the spider sense, webs, have one of Pete's arms tied behind his back, and make is so Pete can't talk. Too many of Snakes feats come from gameplay and non cannon materials. Of we allowed those feats we'd have to allow feats from other Spiderman comics, movies, games, etc. Once those webs get on the Snakes, it's all over for them. They don't have the strength to escape them especially considering his webs could restrain Hulk for even 3 seconds.

He did block his kick in there first fight during twin snakes. Its not considered canon but we never saw there canon fight in the cut scene. As for it being logical honestly I would agree but than it doesn't make sense for snake to take a hit from gray fox. There is no logic in a supposedly regular human surviving hits from an 100 tonner. Especially when that human has been hurt by other humans.

So common sense should work both ways. My theory is that the exo-skeleton is a literal exo-skeleton and helps gray fox supports a lot of heavy weight. It makes sense when you look at his showings and its the only explanation how snake could take hits from gray fox and still be a human. The only other explanation is his fight with gray fox is PIS but metal gear fans never want to hear that.

@sirfizzwhizz

I get itm but at the same time a little common sense. I mean, you believe Snake CQC Vamp so hard that Otocon and Snake had a conversation over it? Not to mention its only triggered when you shoot Vamp up. So its clear he can tag Vamp enough to put him down, and watch him rise over and over again several times. otherwise we should ignore the whole stated cutscene?

No. But it would be nice to know if the feat was PIS or not or what happened during the fight.

I dont like that. I also never said shit about Gene, that sounds like Nickzambuto reasoning to me. Though how quick gene tires is up for debate.

It was but you see why I get frustrated in these threads right? Because everyone has there own set of rules when debating game play. Also everyone has there own interpretation of what happened in the gray fox fight. Its to much to keep up with.

All I am arguing is a codec call when you shoot Vamp up and he rises is canon, so that must have happen. Somehow, someway he tagged Vamp enough.

Fair enough.

He could take blows from Fox fine.

Fox has some decent striking.

To be fair gray fox could have been throwing those people against the metal wall. We don't know because he is camouflaged. The other feat is impressive though. I still think Peter hits harder but that is easily a multi-ton level strike.

Well Mortors are nowhere near tank shells. Were talking small frag grenade to tank shell. I think Snake can tank this for sure to some degree.

He tank this building blast that Fatman laid out for him.

Motars from what I remember have more concussive force than a tank shell, but tank shells contain more shrapnel in them IIRC.

As well the explosive force of a stinger missile only mere feet from him. I think he can take a few blows much like Captain America or even Punisher could from Spidey.

Snake is avoiding the missile in that gif.

Yes, CQC is mostly holds, throws, and weapon control in close combat. With few strikes. Still, Snake did not use CQC at all in MG2, MGS, MGS2, up to beginning of MGS4 because it was Big Boss taught him, and Snake refuse to use what his father taught him. That is until others started using it against him when CQC became standard. All those kicks and blows that generate shockwaves in gifs above, and make Cyborg Ninja fell pain is all Snake striking knowledge. Not that I expect this to be hand to hand as Snake should be packing well in gear here with Big Boss.

I thought CQB was just a watered down CQC?

So because they chose to not use slo mo graphics or effects, we ignore a mach 3+ projectile traveling -100 yards?

Honestly I don't think Kojima is a scientist who carefully analyzes each feat. There are other factors that can affect the speed of a projectile but I think its pointless to talk about that.

Also what about the video where Ocelot and Snake fought a whole fight before a cigar dropped 3 feet distance to the ground?

I already acknowledged this feat. Read my comment in post 115.

The comic is stated as canon. Blame Kojima. He made the game for Raiden, but then states the comic is canon and uses said comic as the direct backstory in the MGS4 game for those who never played 1-2 on older PS's. Both are simply valid here. This aint Marvel canon after all.

They can't both be canon though.....They contradict each other.

@jashro44:

He did block his kick in there first fight during twin snakes. Its not considered canon but we never saw there canon fight in the cut scene.]

We see the fight play out in its entirety in the canon comic, where that doesn't happen.

As for it being logical honestly I would agree but than it doesn't make sense for snake to take a hit from gray fox. There is no logic in a supposedly regular human surviving hits from an 100 tonner. Especially when that human has been hurt by other humans.

Snake has never once been put down through blunt force, even as an old man. Liquid never did any noticeable damage to him, and even in his first fight against Ocelot he was only taken to the ground through grapples rather than punches, and was still coming after all that and being stabbed multiple times with an electric knife capable of one-shotting PMC soldiers. He then continued as if nothing happened with the blade still in him. He was then almost completely unharmed after taking well over a dozen undefended punches to the face in their final fight after they had already been fighting for ages, when Ocelot proved in that specific fight that his punches were more powerful than rockets. (IIRC. I can expand on this.)

So common sense should work both ways. My theory is that the exo-skeleton is a literal exo-skeleton and helps gray fox supports a lot of heavy weight.

His striking is still clearly enhanced though based on the ceiling feat, so I don't think that is really supported.

@lubub55:

We see the fight play out in its entirety in the canon comic, where that doesn't happen.

Well he also doesn't one shot snake in the comics. He does land hits on snake.

Snake has never once been put down through blunt force, even as an old man. Liquid never did any noticeable damage to him, and even in his first fight against Ocelot he was only taken to the ground through grapples rather than punches, and was still coming after all that and being stabbed multiple times with an electric knife capable of one-shotting PMC soldiers. He then continued as if nothing happened with the blade still in him. He was then almost completely unharmed after taking well over a dozen undefended punches to the face in their final fight after they had already been fighting for ages, when Ocelot proved in that specific fight that his punches were more powerful than rockets. (IIRC. I can expand on this.)

How are Ocelots punches more powerful than rockets?

Regardless just because Snake has never been dropped by blunt force doesn't mean it can't happen. Snake doesn't have any super powers so there is no logic in assuming he can take hits from 100 tonners anymore than there is in logic of someone like batman or captain america taking those punches. It really doesn't even matter if snake has been knocked out if he could take hits from 100 tonners he shouldn't even be phased by hits from people like Liquid.

Really when you look at the level of strength of snakes rivals and also the fact that he is meant to be a human being who fights against the odds using skill and tactics than you realize there is simply no logic in him being able to take 100 ton level strikes. Unless your argument is Liquid is also a 100 tonner its either massively inconsistent or gray fox doesn't hit with 100 tons of force:

Gallery

Even if we assume Liquid is a 10 tonner he still wouldn't be anywhere near gray fox in striking power.

@jashro44:

Well he also doesn't one shot snake in the comics. He does land hits on snake.

I'm confused on what you mean by this. Please elaborate.

How are Ocelots punches more powerful than rockets?

This is off my memory so I may be wrong. In the cutscene after the REX vs RAY fight we see Outer Haven, the ship that Snake and Ocelot later fight on. Mei Ling sends out a barrage of missiles to stop it from her battleship and to her awe nothing happens and she comments something along the lines of, "not even a scratch." Then during the fight later, Ocelot misses his hit against Snake and accidentally leaves a fist imprint on the hull.

Regardless just because Snake has never been dropped by blunt force doesn't mean it can't happen. Snake doesn't have any super powers so there is no logic in assuming he can take hits from 100 tonners anymore than there is in logic of someone like batman or captain america taking those punches.

Snake taking dozens upon dozens of hits as an old man and not being visibly harmed, and doing things like tanking tank shells and hits from his physical superiors like Liquid Snake prove that the Gray Fox feat isn't an outlier. People like Batman and Captain America have consistent established limits and "low showings" to contradict tanking hits from powerhouses being a part of their regular abilities. Snake doesn't. We never see the maximum limit to his durability against peak humans or even really see it get pushed. That sets a baseline and it can't be used to contradict the Gray Fox showing. He doesn't have superpowers in-universe, but he might as well with the way he's portrayed, and he is genetically engineered. Not to mention the whole theme of the franchise is that genes and "powers" don't define what you can do.

It really doesn't even matter if snake has been knocked out if he could take hits from 100 tonners he shouldn't even be phased by hits from people like Liquid.

Really when you look at the level of strength of snakes rivals and also the fact that he is meant to be a human being who fights against the odds using skill and tactics than you realize there is simply no logic in him being able to take 100 ton level strikes. Unless your argument is Liquid is also a 100 tonner its either massively inconsistent or gray fox doesn't hit with 100 tons of force:

Even if we assume Liquid is a 10 tonner he still wouldn't be anywhere near gray fox in striking power.

Liquid's physicals are absolutely insane, and we actually have something to compare him to Gray Fox. The explosion that killed Gray Fox when he was just in the explosion radius didn't even knock out Liquid Snake who the missile was actually aimed at and hit. Gray Fox was weakened, but since Liquid was the actual target and wasn't harmed at all as opposed to Fox only being in the radius and being killed by it, I feel it should at least balance out. It's also worth noting that Metal Gear peak humans have striking significantly greater than their lifting, so Liquid has powerhouse physicals along with ridiculous striking technique. Liquid is very overpowered physically for an MGS peak human and should have a focus on striking power when scaling off of other peak humans. And we know that Gray Fox wasn't hitting back and still hits harder than Liquid because it only takes a few hits for him to kill you in the boss fight, whereas Liquid takes more. All Snake is doing is grunting against Liquid. That isn't really a low showing. He was also tanking multiple hits as opposed to just the one with Gray Fox.

@jashro44: And I know this comment wasn't addressed to me, but -

Honestly I don't think Kojima is a scientist who carefully analyzes each feat.

The MGS games are very scientific and pay lots of attention to detail. Kojima definitely looks at the science behind everything.

@sirfizzwhizz: Technically anyone is capable of beating Spider-Man. Heck, if a normal human like Batman can supposedly take him down, why can't someone like Snake do the same? But can you see Snake winning in a head-to-head confrontation with Spidey where they're just slugging it out? Like how Snake and Liquid were slugging it out in MGS4? If so, please enlighten me. Of course Snake could put Spidey down for the count theoretically, but can he take even half of what Spidey can dish out? Snake only wins if Spidey doesn't lay a finger or a web on him. Do you think that is likely in a head-to-head battle? Prep that cannot be specified, described, or quantified is nothing more than plot armor to me. If you can make up some sort of prep that Snake could conjure up to defeat Spidey that's fairly specific and feasible (and something Snake would do based off of the million feats he has), I'll stop "underestimating" Snake in this fight. I don't "underestimate" Snake as a character, as I am aware of his plethora of feats. I just don't see enough reason to believe he would win against Spidey's style. Sometimes it's not fire vs fire that causes the "superior" opponent to lose but style vs. style, and Spider-Man is a character with hardly any exploitable weaknesses because he is so well-rounded and his powers work in cohesive harmony so it's difficult to isolate or exploit him. Prep relies on exploitation and using an opponent's one-dimensional nature against them. Spidey doesn't fit those categories.

Beautifully said!

@strongtower7: Unknown the question wasn't directed at me but... The only was I see Batman beating Pete is if he gets prep, Pete doesn't, and if he has the writer on his side.

@lubub55:

I'm confused on what you mean by this. Please elaborate.

Gray Fox still lands hits on snake. Snake isn't killed in one hit. You can look at it as a feat for gray fox but it can also work against gray fox.

This is off my memory so I may be wrong. In the cutscene after the REX vs RAY fight we see Outer Haven, the ship that Snake and Ocelot later fight on. Mei Ling sends out a barrage of missiles to stop it from her battleship and to her awe nothing happens and she comments something along the lines of, "not even a scratch." Then during the fight later, Ocelot misses his hit against Snake and accidentally leaves a fist imprint on the hull.

It could be that the top part where snake and liquid were fighting isn't as durable.

Snake taking dozens upon dozens of hits as an old man and not being visibly harmed, and doing things like tanking tank shells and hits from his physical superiors like Liquid Snake prove that the Gray Fox feat isn't an outlier.

Snake wasn't tanking tank shells. He was bieng knocked around by the blast which is a lot different than actually tanking a tank shell.

People like Batman and Captain America have consistent established limits and "low showings" to contradict tanking hits from powerhouses being a part of their regular abilities. Snake doesn't.

Except we do see snakes limits...

We never see the maximum limit to his durability against peak humans or even really see it get pushed. That sets a baseline and it can't be used to contradict the Gray Fox showing. He doesn't have superpowers in-universe, but he might as well with the way he's portrayed, and he is genetically engineered.

Again unless your arguing that Liquid can hit with hundreds of tons of force than yes that does heavily contradict the gray fox fight.

Not to mention the whole theme of the franchise is that genes and "powers" don't define what you can do.

I'm aware...That doesn't mean characters can do stuff for no explained reason.

Liquid's physicals are absolutely insane, and we actually have something to compare him to Gray Fox. The explosion that killed Gray Fox when he was just in the explosion radius didn't even knock out Liquid Snake who the missile was actually aimed at and hit. Gray Fox was weakened, but since Liquid was the actual target and wasn't harmed at all as opposed to Fox only being in the radius and being killed by it, I feel it should at least balance out.

Liquid was inside metal gear when this happened IIRC.

It's also worth noting that Metal Gear peak humans have striking significantly greater than their lifting, so Liquid has powerhouse physicals along with ridiculous striking technique. Liquid is very overpowered physically for an MGS peak human and should have a focus on striking power when scaling off of other peak humans. And we know that Gray Fox wasn't hitting back and still hits harder than Liquid because it only takes a few hits for him to kill you in the boss fight, whereas Liquid takes more. All Snake is doing is grunting against Liquid. That isn't really a low showing. He was also tanking multiple hits as opposed to just the one with Gray Fox.

So do you think Liquid hits with hundreds of tons of force? Because he seems to similar damage as gray fox in the comics. Hell in the comic Snake doesn't even grunt when Gray Fox hits him. I also think its hypocritical to say Liquid hits way harder than his lifting strength but the idea gray fox doesn't strike as hard as he can lift is far fetched?

A Snake fighting Spiderman is kinda like Batman fighting Spiderman; raw skill and a small arsenal, but completely physically outclassed. Even two Snakes, with all their usual toys, martial prowess and experience fighting super-humans, shouldn't be able to take down Peter, at least not without extra-heavy gear. Metal gears, for example, or just much heavier weaponry. Peter can very likely avoid and/or survive the standard firearms and small-scale explosives they carry, and despite the fact that both Snake's are embarrassingly better hand-to-hand combatants Peter is simply too fast and too strong for them to be very effective. Peter would have to make more than one rookie-level mistake to lose this, and considering his opponents it's not out of the question, I just really don't think it's that likely.

@zackg: Oh I'm sorry if I made it seem like the question was directed at you, I just wanted to reply to another guy and also agree with you all in the same comment lol (and I agree with you again!)

@lubub55: For the record this is my view on PIS/WIS (I requoted this from another thread):

@jashro44 said:

It is a red herring because when have I or anyone else posting in this thread argued that these characters can take 20-100 ton blows? Or when have I or anyone else in this thread argued these characters being beyond "enhanced" durability? Even when I do use feats of 100 tonners hitting people like batman I always make sure to note the force they were hit with can only be quantified based on what is shown or stated on panel. For example:

Gallery

In instances like these even though the 100 tonners who hit batman are bloodlusted and are actually trying to kill batman I don't argue nonsense like "batman can take hits which launch him into orbit". The way I argue these feats is we can only judge the force that we see these characters exert on panel. For example superman hits batman and sends him flying into the batmobile. Martian manhunter hits batman through some gym equipment, and than tackles him through a wall in the bat cave. And wonder woman slams batmans face into the ground to create a crater.

Basically I would never use these sorts of feats to argue that batman's durability is massively super human and that daredevil would tire himself out from punching batman for days. At best I think there is a middle ground when it comes to feats like these. And what even is your point? Because the characters you listed can take 100 ton level hits than so can gray fox?

So even if I were to be convinced gray fox hits with hundreds of tons of force....I still wouldn't view snake as being capable of taking hits from 100 tonners. Snake is on paper a human being. Gray foxes hits never did anything like send snake flying through a wall or anything like that. So in my view gray fox hitting snake would just be a showing of snakes plot armor.

We can agree to disagree.

@jashro44:

It was but you see why I get frustrated in these threads right? Because everyone has there own set of rules when debating game play. Also everyone has there own interpretation of what happened in the gray fox fight. Its to much to keep up with.

well we can say the same for comics. I mean, we have writers claiming Odin is galaxy level and others state he is barely above planet manipulation. We have Hulk holding planets together but then has trouble KOing Wolverine, when Spider Man has KO Wolverine with a few blows. We have Thor being stated as below Wolverine in speed, yet Jane Thor with exact same powers, less really due to no god hood, being speed of lightning. I mean gameplay mechanics can get tedious to argue how legit they can be, which is why I do not argue them. Only feats with a cinematic scene or action scene that the player can really not control (Action button sequences) as rule of thumb.

Either way its all part of the great process of debating on comicvine.

To be fair gray fox could have been throwing those people against the metal wall. We don't know because he is camouflaged. The other feat is impressive though. I still think Peter hits harder but that is easily a multi-ton level strike.

I dont think he threw them due to the only 3 feet distance from middle of the hallway to the wall, and the bodies seem pin there for a brief split second before dropping. There is another cut scene where Fox did this.

The wall is caved where the upper body hit. So Fox kicked this guy dozen feet with enough force to cave in the concrete wall.

Motars from what I remember have more concussive force than a tank shell, but tank shells contain more shrapnel in them IIRC.

I have to look this up and do research. Tank shells do not always shrapnel. In fact most Tank rounds are not shrapnel, so that explains that shrapnel possibility. Some of them are HE (High Explosive) rounds too. either way, tank are made to take out buildings and other tanks/vehicles.

Snake is avoiding the missile in that gif.

He was blown back by the explosive force, sent flying in fact after it explodes few feet in front of him which is a lot of kinetic force.

I thought CQB was just a watered down CQC?

It is. Basic stuff but still CQC, just not on the master level as Snake, Ocelot, or Big Boss.

Honestly I don't think Kojima is a scientist who carefully analyzes each feat. There are other factors that can affect the speed of a projectile but I think its pointless to talk about that.

Well, most tank shell move at speeds of 1700 MS. That is Mach 4.

Original game has Snake reacting and avoiding a tank shell after its fired. Seems consistent given all of Snakes speed feats. Clearly Wolverine levels.

I already acknowledged this feat. Read my comment in post 115.

I see it now. Its a good feat with a time frame. Consistent with his other speed feats.

They can't both be canon though.....They contradict each other.

They both can be vaild and canon. You just dont like two things happening done different ways as canon but it is. As per kojima both examples of events are valid. That simple. I mean, its not unheard of. Star Wars canon before disney had contradicting events with layers of canon validness. Dark Tower is also the same stroy done several different ways but canon thanks to the way the Tower resets shit.

Not everything is Marvel or DC style of canon mate. If the main guy in charge of said canon say its valid, its valid. You cannot argue this :/ Though to be fair, Twin Snakes and Snakes Revenge are considered non canon and only for Konami. So you could argue against those, but then most of the comic was inspired by Twin Snakes anyway with panel for scene copies of said feats.

There is tons of gear that would KO Spider man in one blow.

Also I argue Solid Snake or Big Boss > Batman in stats anyway. Batman is inconsistent as shit, the Snakes are not.

Exactly Kojima is the James Cameron of Video games. Very detailed and does his homework.

@lubub55: @jashro44: @nickzambato: Just realise this, Kojima stated LONG ago, before MGS4 was released that Twin Snakes was not canon. Well, Kojima never said this, his second hand guy did in a interview. However, if its not canon, then why was all the audio flash backs in MGS4 canon game, contain the Twin Snakes Audio lmao!?

Its clearly canon now in some way. The canon MGS4 game uses the direct audio of Twin Snakes and not the original PS1 game for the flashback and story scenes.

Nice. So much for that argument.