Soldiers (MCU) vs Knights (616)

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buildhare

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#1  Edited By buildhare

Soldiers

No Caption Provided

vs

Knights

No Caption Provided

Gear

  • Billy clubs for DD
  • Crescents and Truncheons for MK
  • Assault Rifle and Pistol for Frank
  • Standard gear for MCU team (or Highway gear for Bucky)
  • Regular suits for everyone

Conditions

  • Random Encounter
  • Modern iterations of the 616 characters
  • In character and determined to win, Punisher will respect his teammates view on killing
  • Start 50 feet away, visible in a crowded car park

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Elijah_C_Washington

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Knights really do stomp.

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BeaconofStrength

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This isn't remotely fair for the MCU team.

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nfactor1995

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Feats to put the Knights completely out of the soldiers' leagues?

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TheKinfing

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Bucky looks weird.

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AllStarSuperman

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Knights

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NickoSaurusRex

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This is a mismatch. Anyone except punisher solos. Only reason punisher dosen't solo is because t'challa is bullet proof

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Elijah_C_Washington

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@nfactor1995 said:

Feats to put the Knights completely out of the soldiers' leagues?

Just in today's issue Daredevil took down Karnak.

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buildhare

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#9  Edited By buildhare

This is a mismatch. Anyone except punisher solos. Only reason punisher dosen't solo is because t'challa is bullet proof

Even without the suit, how would Punisher solo anything here? He's not shooting to kill and he's not beating them all H2H. MK has no chance at soloing. DD is the most formidable but even then unless your arguing he can one shot people as durable as these guys he's got no shot at soloing either.

Disappointed in you CV.

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NickoSaurusRex

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@buildhare: durable? Have you read one of these guys comics. they make live action durability look like a joke. Moon knight had his intestints ripped out and kept fighting. Punisher was impaled had both arms chopped off, his throat slit and was still fighting. With pressure points, yeah daredevil solos. I will admit that I didn't see punisher isn't shooting to kill. He has no chance of soloing then

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buildhare

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@nickosaurusrex:

they make live action durability look like a joke. Moon knight had his intestints ripped out and kept fighting. Punisher was impaled had both arms chopped off, his throat slit and was still fighting.

That's not durability, it's damage soak. Durability would be not getting hurt in the first place.

When did Frank do that? Surely there's a whole lot of context to a sub-peak human street leveller fighting through two lost limbs and being stabbed.

Moon Knight has also popped both kneecaps falling off a roof and been brought to his knees by crossbow bolts. These guys are tough, no doubt. But don't make them out to be something they're not.

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jashro44

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@nickosaurusrex:

they make live action durability look like a joke. Moon knight had his intestints ripped out and kept fighting. Punisher was impaled had both arms chopped off, his throat slit and was still fighting.

That's not durability, it's damage soak. Durability would be not getting hurt in the first place.

When did Frank do that? Surely there's a whole lot of context to a sub-peak human street leveller fighting through two lost limbs and being stabbed.

Moon Knight has also popped both kneecaps falling off a roof and been brought to his knees by crossbow bolts. These guys are tough, no doubt. But don't make them out to be something they're not.

I'm thinking he is reffering to punishers fight with Daken. Its a good pain tolerance feat obviously since Frank broke his leg and was also shot in the leg, had his limbs chopped off, was stabbed multiple times. All though with that said Frank ended up dying:

Loading Video...

So the feat is slightly exaggerated. Its a great feat despite dying but Frank did...Well...Die.

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depinhom

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Knights stomp. Stompingly.

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NickoSaurusRex

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He only died after having his head cut off. All this to say Knights can take WWWAAYY more than soldiers

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NickoSaurusRex

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So they win spite

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JediXMan

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#16 JediXMan  Moderator

@jashro44:

Huh. He put up a better fight against Daken than I remember.

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GIliad_

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Uhm... Surely Knights stomp?

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deactivated-5d86fd79c2e73

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Knights, no contest.

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BeaconofStrength

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#19  Edited By BeaconofStrength

@buildhare:

Moon Knight has also popped both kneecaps falling off a roof and been brought to his knees by crossbow bolts. These guys are tough, no doubt. But don't make them out to be something they're not.

Moon Knight only broke his legs at his worst, after a brutal fight with Bushman. And Moon Knight has endured crossbow bolts, while wounded, too. You're missing context. He's fallen from longer heights before.

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buildhare

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@buildhare:

Moon Knight has also popped both kneecaps falling off a roof and been brought to his knees by crossbow bolts. These guys are tough, no doubt. But don't make them out to be something they're not.

Moon Knight only broke his legs at his worst, after a brutal fight with Bushman. And Moon Knight has endured crossbow bolts, while wounded, too. You're missing context. He's fallen from longer heights before.

I'm aware. My point is that they aren't infallible. For every extreme high end (i.e crushing an engine block in Secret Avengers) he has a feat on the opposite end of the spectrum. During the same secret avengers run he nearly passed out from a single gunshot wound to his leg (quad?). Everyone seems to focus on the hyper high end feats for these guys even when it's clearly not where they usually operate.

And assuming we're both talking about the Taskmaster instance, he only barely endured them. He was brought to a crawl and won that fight through fear, if even a fodder character had wanted to beat him there their wouldn't have been much Marc could've done about it.

Cap has done better then that (four bullets) and maintained consciousness and motor function. T'challa is bulletproof. They aren't out of their league here.

@jashro44 said:
@buildhare said:

@nickosaurusrex:

they make live action durability look like a joke. Moon knight had his intestints ripped out and kept fighting. Punisher was impaled had both arms chopped off, his throat slit and was still fighting.

That's not durability, it's damage soak. Durability would be not getting hurt in the first place.

When did Frank do that? Surely there's a whole lot of context to a sub-peak human street leveller fighting through two lost limbs and being stabbed.

Moon Knight has also popped both kneecaps falling off a roof and been brought to his knees by crossbow bolts. These guys are tough, no doubt. But don't make them out to be something they're not.

I'm thinking he is reffering to punishers fight with Daken. Its a good pain tolerance feat obviously since Frank broke his leg and was also shot in the leg, had his limbs chopped off, was stabbed multiple times. All though with that said Frank ended up dying:

Loading Video...

So the feat is slightly exaggerated. Its a great feat despite dying but Frank did...Well...Die.

You're right, that's an awesome feat. But after having his throat slit he could barely defend himself, after his arm was gone he's essentially dead. Up until that point was really good (i.e fighting through a broken leg and being stabbed) but the actual aforementioned feat wasn't that great as an example of what he could do here, he was essentially dying standing up. No way he's actually going to be fighting through lost limbs here.

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NickoSaurusRex

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@buildhare: it is an impressive display of willpower too. The fact that frank was able to continue fighting under those conditions

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Sy8000

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@buildhare:

he nearly passed out from a single gunshot wound to his leg (quad?).

He didn't, he was just teasing Beast for calling him a psychopath earlier that issue. He went the whole issue without passing out.

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BeaconofStrength

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@buildhare:

For every extreme high end (i.e crushing an engine block in Secret Avengers) he has a feat on the opposite end of the spectrum.

That's not a high end feat for Marc. He's shown to hit hard enough to crush reinforced doors, hit people through concrete walls, and overpower 2-tonners consistently.

During the same secret avengers run he nearly passed out from a single gunshot wound to his leg (quad?).

It was used in a comedic context, and he didn't actually pass out.

Everyone seems to focus on the hyper high end feats for these guys even when it's clearly not where they usually operate.

It isn't above what they normally operate, though.

And assuming we're both talking about the Taskmaster instance, he only barely endured them. He was brought to a crawl and won that fight through fear, if even a fodder character had wanted to beat him there their wouldn't have been much Marc could've done about it.

Again, you're lacking context. Marc was 2 years retired, a drug addict, had completely crushed legs, could barley walk, and just kamikaze'd into a building. He's susceptible to piercing damage, but he can definitely endure gunshots and crossbow bolts.

Cap has done better then that (four bullets) and maintained consciousness and motor function. T'challa is bulletproof. They aren't out of their league here.

Marc has endured getting pierced by multiple spears, getting his vertebrae pulled, and multiple hits from a cyborg that could crush concrete walls like nothing, despite being weakend due to his intense leg injuries. Marc also outclasses T'challa and Cap in just about every stat, too.

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buildhare

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@buildhare: it is an impressive display of willpower too. The fact that frank was able to continue fighting under those conditions

I agree.

@buildhare:

he nearly passed out from a single gunshot wound to his leg (quad?).

He didn't, he was just teasing Beast for calling him a psychopath earlier that issue. He went the whole issue without passing out.

Hence nearly.

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Sy8000

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#25  Edited By Sy8000

@highaccuser said:

@buildhare:

he nearly passed out from a single gunshot wound to his leg (quad?).

He didn't, he was just teasing Beast for calling him a psychopath earlier that issue. He went the whole issue without passing out.

Hence nearly.

It wasn't nearly anything, he was literally joking and completely unaffected.

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deactivated-6241fa3a1cff5

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@buildhare: Just curious, might change my opinion, does Moon Knight have carbodium armor here? I'm guessing no as it would be unfair.

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deactivated-6241fa3a1cff5

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Very hard fight, but I'm leaning towards MCU Knights. Matt's going to be pissed to see his teammates go down, and he'll use pressure points to beat down on Team 1, just like he beat down Kingpin.

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buildhare

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@beaconofstrength:

@buildhare said:

@highaccuser said:

@buildhare:

he nearly passed out from a single gunshot wound to his leg (quad?).

He didn't, he was just teasing Beast for calling him a psychopath earlier that issue. He went the whole issue without passing out.

Hence nearly.

It wasn't nearly anything, he was literally joking and completely unaffected.

This isn't even slightly incorrect, it's just straight up wrong.

Here's the instance in question;

No Caption Provided

He's obviously in pain. He's taking the piss out of beast but at the same time you'd have to reach very hard to assume he's joking about his condition, especially when on the very next page;

No Caption Provided

He has to be carried by beast. He uses the situation to poke fun at beast but to suggest that having a sense of humour means he wasn't injured badly is totally false.

That's not a high end feat for Marc. He's shown to hit hard enough to crush reinforced doors, hit people through concrete walls, and overpower 2-tonners consistently.

To my knowledge it is for powerless Marc. Hitting people through concrete walls isn't on par with crushing an engine block with your feet. Not sure which 2 Tonners your talking about. His last fight WBN all he could do was avoid him, he had nothing on him in strength.

Unless your talking about his classic iteration (which I'm not overly familiar with but regardless isn't even allowed here) the jeep crush is very much a high end feat for powerless Marc. He certainly didn't do anything strength wise even close to that in his next run.

Again, you're lacking context. Marc was 2 years retired, a drug addict, had completely crushed legs, could barley walk, and just kamikaze'd into a building. He's susceptible to piercing damage, but he can definitely endure gunshots and crossbow bolts.

I know the context. It clearly affected his skills but durability is a different animal entirely. It's not something that decays easily with time and given the beating he took from TK in their first encounter he hadn't lost much. He was able to stay conscious through both of what you listed, but not a whole lot more then that.

Marc has endured getting pierced by multiple spears, getting his vertebrae pulled, and multiple hits from a cyborg that could crush concrete walls like nothing, despite being weakend due to his intense leg injuries. Marc also outclasses T'challa and Cap in just about every stat, too.

Can't say much on the spears.

He endured the torture, but he was clearly hurt badly. The cyborg also said that he was doing everything he could to not punch through Marc's chest. If he wanted him dead he could've killed him in a single hit, but he held back greatly. Not gonna go into the stat thing, just trying to make it clear this is far from spite.

@buildhare: Just curious, might change my opinion, does Moon Knight have carbodium armor here? I'm guessing no as it would be unfair.

No he doesn't.

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BeaconofStrength

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#29  Edited By BeaconofStrength

@buildhare:

To my knowledge it is for powerless Marc.

Marc had moon powers for less than a year, and a majority of hits feats are without moon powers.

Not sure which 2 Tonners your talking about. His last fight WBN all he could do was avoid him, he had nothing on him in strength.

He's overpowered WBN on their first fight, matched him in unarmed combat, and has bent bars that WBN couldn't break out of. He's also overpowered Hobgoblin. His latest fight he was still injured from his leg injuries, and WBN was at his absolute best.

Hitting people through concrete walls isn't on par with crushing an engine block with your feet.

Crushing thick walls, reinforced metal doors effortlessly makes being able to crush an engine block not out of the realm of possibilities.

I know the context. It clearly affected his skills but durability is a different animal entirely. It's not something that decays easily with time and given the beating he took from TK in their first encounter he hadn't lost much.

He was still wounded from heavy injuries, completely out of shape, a junkie, and could barley walk. He was not nearly as fit as he usually is.

He was able to stay conscious through both of what you listed, but not a whole lot more then that.

Him being able to endure crossbow bolts in his condition, is very good.

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deactivated-6241fa3a1cff5

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jashro44

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#31  Edited By jashro44

@beaconofstrength: When did moon knight crush reinforced steel doors?

@jedixman said:

@jashro44:

Huh. He put up a better fight against Daken than I remember.

Yea he got some good hits in.

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deactivated-6241fa3a1cff5

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@jashro44: I have a feeling you're leaning a bit towards Team 2?

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BeaconofStrength

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@jashro44:

When did moon knight crush reinforced steel doors?

First happened in Vengeance of the Moon Knight, second in Marc's '07 run. He has another one, but I can't find the scan. Looking for it right now.

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jashro44

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@beaconofstrength: I wouldn't say that is crushing. It looks like he is kicking the doors off there hinges, and they are slightly dented. But crushing is a bit of an over statement.

@jashro44: I have a feeling you're leaning a bit towards Team 2?

I think its kind of difficult to compare comic and live action characters so I am trying to be neutral. I don't think people are giving convincing reasoning for the knights though. And no one has addressed black panthers vibranium suit either.

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BeaconofStrength

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@jashro44:

I wouldn't say that is crushing. It looks like he is kicking the doors off there hinges, and they are slightly dented. But crushing is a bit of an over statement.

Bad wording on my part, my bad.

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jashro44

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sirfizzwhizz

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@jashro44: So... I guess these means Karnak is a bitch then. I mean, he lost to DD.

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jashro44

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@jashro44: So... I guess these means Karnak is a bitch then. I mean, he lost to DD.

He put up a decent fight so not really.

No shame in losing to daredevil. He did much better here than he did against black panther at least.

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sirfizzwhizz

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@jashro44: Why is Karnak a thing? The goofball was always worthless as a fighter in past Inhuman fights. For a guy whose power is seeing every weakness and a MAs master, he sucks bad.

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jashro44

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@jashro44: Why is Karnak a thing? The goofball was always worthless as a fighter in past Inhuman fights. For a guy whose power is seeing every weakness and a MAs master, he sucks bad.

From what I have seen Karnak isn't worthless. His problem is that despite his abilities he's never been able to beat any top tier fighters. Even than his recent fight against daredevil wasn't terrible at least. Recently in civil war II he did dodge iron man's repulsors, and in his own ongoing he cut a bullet in half with his finger very casually.

Just because someone isn't top tier doesn't mean there worthless.

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jashro44

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@sirfizzwhizz: All though why are you talking about Karnak in this thread?

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sirfizzwhizz

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@jashro44 said:
@sirfizzwhizz said:

@jashro44: Why is Karnak a thing? The goofball was always worthless as a fighter in past Inhuman fights. For a guy whose power is seeing every weakness and a MAs master, he sucks bad.

From what I have seen Karnak isn't worthless. His problem is that despite his abilities he's never been able to beat any top tier fighters. Even than his recent fight against daredevil wasn't terrible at least. Recently in civil war II he did dodge iron man's repulsors, and in his own ongoing he cut a bullet in half with his finger very casually.

Just because someone isn't top tier doesn't mean there worthless.

Yet in the Karnal vs Miles thread you have no problem backing this loser :P

That said I speak of Karnak because someone mention his sorry butt whooped again by a mid street lever.

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brucerogers

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#43  Edited By brucerogers

@jashro44: When did the fight with DD happen?

Yup and the Knights stomp this. And another underrated durability feat for the Punisher would be when he fell 10+ stories on top of a dumpster and only had a broken leg to show for it. I mean sure, he was out of commission for sometime but that was only because he was waiting for his leg to heal. He hardly seemed bothered by it and was able to walk despite that

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jashro44

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Yet in the Karnal vs Miles thread you have no problem backing this loser :P

That said I speak of Karnak because someone mention his sorry butt whooped again by a mid street lever.

I've also argued daredevil can beat Miles so whats the problem :p

Also when did I say Karnak beats Miles? I used him as a comparison in our challenge a viner but I don't think I actually said he beats Miles.

@jashro44: When did the fight with DD happen?

Daredevil #12. This weeks issue.

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brucerogers

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@jashro44: Thank you. Glad to see Matt finally showing some great feats again

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jashro44

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buildhare

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@brucerogers:

And another underrated durability feat for the Punisher would be when he fell 10+ stories on top of a dumpster and only had a broken leg to show for it.

Was that after his fight with Vulture?

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brucerogers

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buildhare

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@brucerogers:

I thought he was more seriously injured then that.

How do MK and DD go in this fight?

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brucerogers

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@brucerogers:

I thought he was more seriously injured then that.

How do MK and DD go in this fight?

No, he just seemed to have a damaged eye and a broken leg from my recollection. Him being able to walk in spite of it, till he got a rid home, is also a decent pain tolerance feat.

I have yet to read MK to know what he is really capable of but DD is the MVP here. I think he capable of beating two of the soldiers at the same time on his own. He has shown more skill than any of them, is considerably faster and agile and he pretty much stalemated 616 Steve and had the upper hand against 616 Bucky, when he had fought them respectively.