SOD Maul vs. ROTJ Luke

@daddyprometheus: @catman5: @frozen: @lord_tenebrous: @w4nkdestroyer2: @dirtyluna: @hellothere5432: @darthor: @bayman007: @void_reborn: @pisswaterball: @mysterymeat: @darthadi:

“Skywalker: Family at War” states that ROTJ Luke isn’t as skilled with a lightsaber as Obi Wan. But other sources say he’s ROTJ Vader’s equal…. Thoughts?

@sonofdarkness: Please tag me for future SW threads

@godlyshinigami: yes sir👍

Doesn't matter. He has far superior augmentation.

That quote also mentions its ANH Ben, and given that ROTJ Luke is confirmed equal in skill to ROTJ Vader, that would also mean by extension that Vader is less skilled than Obi. That didn't stop him from beating Obi in ANH.

@pisswaterball: @frozen: but the book says that it’s unlikely that Luke, a Jedi still in training, could defeat Vader and the Emperor when Obi Wan and Yoda could not, and says that although he doesn’t have their lightsaber skills he has other qualities like purpose and empathy.

It seems to imply that Obi Wan and Yoda were more formidable warriors than Luke is as of ROTJ.

I meant to delete that part of the quote when quoting them.... I agree that ROTJ Luke wins in the EU too

Canon Luke due to scaling.

@sonofdarkness:

but the book says that it’s unlikely that Luke, a Jedi still in training, could defeat Vader and the Emperor when Obi Wan and Yoda could not, and says that although he doesn’t have their lightsaber skills he has other qualities like purpose and empathy.

So what if the book said that? In the actual film, Luke beat Vader. So clearly, it might have seemed unlikely on paper, given that Luke a year prior had been beaten badly, but when they rematched Luke won. Even prior to his dark side rage, Luke was matching him. We also have various other quotes saying that Luke is an equal to Vader both in the force and in saber skill. Also, the same book says that Luke is more powerful than Vader.

It seems to imply that Obi Wan and Yoda were more formidable warriors than Luke is as of ROTJ.

That clearly isn't true given that Luke did better against a more powerful version of Vader than ANH Ben did.

Either way, Luke's force augmentation far exceeds Obi's.

Anakin's supremacy over Vader mostly comes from G-Canon, which should take supremacy over other statements. So if you put stock into that, then Anakin is stronger. If you discard G-canon, you could make the argument that suit Vader is more powerful.

Also that quote was copy pasted into Disney canon too (for a 2016 guidebook), which is nice.

@frozen: why are you talking about ANH Kenobi? The book is referring to ROTS Yoda and Obi Wan, not ANH Obi Wan: “At the dawn of the empire, two Jedi masters faced two Sith Lords and lost.”

I’m well aware of what transpires in the movie, I’m just trying to reconcile what the book says with other source material because it quite clearly says that Luke is not as skilled as ROTS Obi Wan and Yoda.

It starts off with ''at the dawn'', which would mean at the start, but it then says ''and lost''. ROTS Kenobi never lost to Vader, ANH Kenobi however did. So I don't see how that could be referring to ROTS Kenobi.

Either way, the book doesn't specify how much less skilled Luke is. Yoda v Luke is debatable, but Obi doesn't have the feats to suggest he can contend with someone equal to ROTJ Vader. He's far outclasses in force augmentation, and with an unquantifable skill gap he gets wrecked.

@frozen: I noticed that too. I think it just means that they lost overall, but who knows.

Fair enough, I’ll go with that.

Luke mid-diff. His force augmentation and power is superior to Maul due to being equal to ROTJ Vader.

Only chance Maul has is if Luke is dropping his guard and jobbing in order to convert him to the good side. Even then Luke would still stomp once he’s forced to get serious.

@frozen:

So the book confirms that Vader was conflicted during their duel and even says that Vader was caught off guard when Luke got his rage amp:

“To defend his master, Vader deflected Luke’s attack. As they battled, Luke perceived the conflict blooming in Vader’s heart.”

“The savageness of Luke’s attack surprised Vader, who was unprepared for Luke’s explosive reaction.”

Also, the book doesn’t say that Luke is more powerful than Vader, it just says that it’s possible that’s what Palpatine thought. And it wasn’t even referring specifically to force power:

“Maybe he thought Luke would prove even more powerful than his father—younger, less constrained by physical maladies, more malleable, without the indoctrination of years of Jedi training and values.”

@sonofdarkness: We’re not referring to the ROTJ fight.

In that fight both LUKE and VADER EQUALLY HELD BACK IN CANON. It says in the 2016 guidebook they both wanted to recruit each other, not operate at 100% capacity.

So the held back excuse holds no water. The fact of the matter is outside of the fight it’s confirmed ROTJ Luke had equal force power and saber skill to prime Vader. It’s a canonical fact and most people know this by now.

@sonofdarkness: Whether Vader was conflicted or not is irrelevant for two reasons:

1. The point you initially raised was that the book says its unlikely that he could have defeated him. This is only referring to how it looks like on paper, which is true.. there had never been a situation like this before, whereby a Jedi who had trained for 3 years could fight and defeat an experienced and powerful force user. The fact that Luke defeated Vader demonstrates just how much of a prodigy he was, and how powerful he was. The Emperor even notes that Luke is immensely powerful in the duel when he says ''Your hate has made your powerful''. It was unlikely for a Jedi with only 3 years to defeat Vader, but Luke was no ordinary force user. Its also the reason Emperor wants Luke to face Vader, he is confident that Luke will win
2. Whether or not Vader was conflicted is irrelevant. Luke is confirmed equal to Vader outside of that duel in other sources. Those sources make no mention of the duel. They just say they're equal in general, which would encompass base non conflicted Vader

Also, that's not the quote I'm referring to. Luke is noted as more powerful in a different passage:

This isn't referring to potential either, but applicable power - it says "gain a more powerful apprentice" meaning he is already more powerful when he would (hypothetically) gain him. If he's going to "gain a more powerful apprentice" it pretty clearly means he must already be more powerful. It doesn't say he gains someone who can become more powerful, but someone who already is.

Also take note of how 'young' and 'new' is differentiated from 'power'. Those things you mentioned such as being less constrained to Jedi morals and such would be encompassed under being young and new, not under power. That refers to power in the force.

Nope. Vader < Sidious because KF Anakin > Sids, but then he grew weaken due to the events on Mustafar

But yeah, in canon, Luke probably wins, in legends, Maul

anh luke win ragdoll

Vader is confirmed superior to the hindered Mustafar incarnation and the lightside incarnation. Accordingly, KF Anakin is stated to be above Sidious, and he cannot reach that level after Mustafar.

ur own quotes matey. Besides, a simple scaling will do the trick. KF Anakin > Sidious. Vader is stated to no longer have potential to be above Sidious, that means no matter how much he grow, he cannot get above Palp

Luke still.