SOD Maul Runs the TCW-ROTS Kenobi gauntlet

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kbroskywalker

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#1  Edited By kbroskywalker

Maul saw Kenobi beat a rebels version of himself in twin suns. He wants revenge...

Warm Up:

Round 1 TCW Movie Kenobi

Gauntlet:

Round 1: Wild Space Kenobi

Round 2 Season 4 Kenobi

Round 3 Florrum Kenobi

Round 4 Obsession Kenobi

Round 5ROTS Pre-Mustafar duel Kenobi

Round 6 ROTS Post-Mustafar duel Kenobi

Bonus:

Rebels Ben Kenobi, but Maul gets help from...

Round 1 Barriss Offee

Round 2 TCW Tano

Round 3 TCW Ventress

Round 4 DD Ventress

How far does maul make it, does he clear?

Rules:

-In-Character

-Kenobi is perfectly capable of focusing himself as he did on florrum

-Legends/pre-Disney canon is allowed, Disney canon isn't

-Bonus is tcw/dsney canon only

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The first rounds, Maul clears, getting progressively harder until ROTS Kenobi gives him serious grief.

SoD Maul doesn't need help to take Ben Kenobi- the help only secures victory.

Maul gets his revenge!

But how does Maul gets his SoD/TCW feats if Disney canon isn't allowed?

Edit: Oh, Kenobi has a one-time circumstancial amp? Then his ROTS iterations win. Without the circumstancial amp, Maul's simply too powerful.

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LordOfTheLight

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#4  Edited By LordOfTheLight

Splits at 5, definitely stops at 6 in the first round.

Bonus round is ambiguous.

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Splits at 5 with a slim majority going to Maul. Losing at 6

Bonus is up for interpretation and kinda vague

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kbroskywalker

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#6  Edited By kbroskywalker

@thesithmaster said:

The first rounds, Maul clears, getting progressively harder until ROTS Kenobi gives him serious grief.

SoD Maul doesn't need help to take Ben Kenobi- the help only secures victory.

Maul gets his revenge!

But how does Maul gets his SoD/TCW feats if Disney canon isn't allowed?

Edit: Oh, Kenobi has a one-time circumstancial amp? Then his ROTS iterations win. Without the circumstancial amp, Maul's simply too powerful.

Edited,

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alextheboss

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stops at round 5 most likely

Bonus

wins at 3

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the_wspanialy

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Splits at 5 with a slim majority going to Maul. Losing at 6

Bonus is up for interpretation and kinda vague

Agreed.

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GeorgeWBush

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Loses all

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nfactor1995

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Stops at 5/6 in the first gauntlet. Bonus round...idk.

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kbroskywalker

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surprised no one's saying 3 or 4

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@kbroskywalker:

What's the surprise? An amped Florrum Kenobi and pre-Florrum Kenobi were being ragdolled by Maul. Obsession Kenobi is good but he's not on the level ROTS Kenobi.

I'm surprised no one says he clears Round 5 and 6, tbh. Oh, forgot the amp once again.

With all the new edits, I'd say Legends Maul (including Sith Hunters) makes it up to 5.

In the new round, given Canon is allowed, Maul does not need backup.

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redheathen

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#14  Edited By redheathen

@kbroskywalker said:

Maul saw Kenobi beat a rebels version of himself in twin suns. He wants revenge...

First, what is the difference between TCW Ventress and DD Ventress? DD occurs during TCW, so I will assume that you mean once she is no longer Sith, which I think should not make her stronger. If anything, ifthere is a change in her abilities, she would be weaker? I didn't think there was a change, but I haven't read the book in a while and may have forgotten.

1) If this is Rebels Maul, the 56 year old who lost to 59 year old Kenobi:

He'd make it to Round 5, which is still a ROTS Kenobi, and stop. Actually, I'm not sure if he could get past Florrum Kenobi because his mental state hasn't progressed, and Kenobi is just as deceptive in his earlier years as he was on Tatooine in Rebels, where he got Maul to think they were going to relive the Theed Palace duel. Maul would likely lose.

In the bonus rounds, BO and TCW AT won't help. rounds 3 and 4 go to Maul and Ventress, either version, no question.

2) OR if this is any version of Maul who foresaw Kenobi killing him (he did have the ability to see the future):

If I can use any version of Maul, then it would be the version that Sidious says is stronger than the Jedi and has a lot of power and ability in the Force - a younger, pre-cyborg Maul, then he'd get to Round 6. (EDIT: I changed "through" to "to." This round is a toss up for me for various reasons.)

The bonus round is the same as number 1 because we can't use any version of Maul except Rebels Maul.

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redheathen

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surprised no one's saying 3 or 4

Big surprise I said 3... IF...it is Rebels Maul, but I did say most likely 3. =D

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kbroskywalker

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#16  Edited By kbroskywalker

@nfactor1995 said:

@kbroskywalker: What is "Obsession" Kenobi?

Kenobi at the end of obsession which takes place after the events of dark disciple(which is after son of dathomir/season 6 tcw) and 5 months out from revenge of the sith.

In obsession, Kenobi stalemated a post tcw Anakin's Tk when their sparring session escalated.

In terms of major confrontations(which are opportunities for growth) Kneobi overcame/persevered through between here and florrum there was

A. Maul killing Satine

B. Maul killing Tiplee

C. Kenobi's search for Ventress

Though it should be noted Maul prolly grew as well between tcw and sod

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kbroskywalker

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@redheathen:

First, what is the difference between TCW Ventress and DD Ventress? DD occurs during TCW, so I will assume that you mean once she is no longer Sith, which I think should not make her stronger. If anything, ifthere is a change in her abilities, she would be weaker? I didn't think there was a change, but I haven't read the book in a while and may have forgotten.

DD Ventress started training vos for a couple of moths presumably growing and then had encounters vs kenobi, vos, and dooku.

Emotionally there was some massive confrontations(which are a source of growth) with her redemption, her relationship with vos ect.

She definitely grew stronger

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kbroskywalker

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@redheathen:

OR if this is any version of Maul who foresaw Kenobi killing him (he did have the ability to see the future):

Its still SOD Maul, just that no legends are allowed for either ben or maul

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Kilius

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Could potentially stop at round 4, but he certainly stops at round 5. Round 5 is a bit hairy, because I don't believe Obi Wan is on a consistent level here. ROTS Obi Wan at the point of The Invisible Hand, should be 50/50. As of his duel with Greivous however, Obi Wan entered a higher state of connection to the Force. The text even goes as far as to say that it wasn't Obi Wan fighting at all but the Force itself. I firmly believe this is the reason why he was able to go toe to toe with Pre Suit Vader, when the likes of Dooku and Cin Drallig were simply sweeped aside. The hindered argument just doesn't hold up. Anakin was embracing the Darkside and he wanted to kill Obi Wan. Obi Wan legitimately beat Vader at his most formidable. Maul can't contend with this. So he stops here.

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@kilius:

How does Maul stop at 5?

He is at the very least as skilled as Kenobi, he's stronger and more powerful.

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Kilius

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@thesithmaster: I already explained it. As of the Invisible Hand it would be 50/50, because they, along with Anakin are at roughly the same level. As of the duel with Grievous however, Obi Wan entered to a higher state of connection with the Force. The text even goes as far as to say Obi Wan wasn't fighting at all, so much as the Force was guiding his actions. It is through this connection, that I firmly believe is the reason Obi Wan was able to contend with and even beat Pre Suit Vader; you know, the guy who made a mockery of Dooku and Cin Drallig. I believe he enters around the time he "lets go" of his feelings for Anakin. I don't buy the popular "Anakin was hindered" argument. Anakin was embracing the Darkside like an addict and was perfectly content to kill Obi Wan.

tldr; Invisible Hand Obi Wan 50/50 split Utapau Obi Wan stomps

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Greysentinel365

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#22  Edited By Greysentinel365

Stops at 4 or 5 though 3 might do it.

3 in the bonus.

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Wade.

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kbroskywalker

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deactivated-5be183e26f3e9

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Could potentially stop at 4. I don't see him getting past 5.

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Golden_Knight

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WAIT

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redheathen

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@redheathen:

OR if this is any version of Maul who foresaw Kenobi killing him (he did have the ability to see the future):

Its still SOD Maul, just that no legends are allowed for either ben or maul

Where did you state this was SoD Maul? I totally missed that. You said "-Legends/pre-Disney canon is allowed, Disney canon isn't".

The first rounds, Maul clears, getting progressively harder until ROTS Kenobi gives him serious grief.

SoD Maul doesn't need help to take Ben Kenobi- the help only secures victory.

Maul gets his revenge!

But how does Maul gets his SoD/TCW feats if Disney canon isn't allowed?

Edit: Oh, Kenobi has a one-time circumstancial amp? Then his ROTS iterations win. Without the circumstancial amp, Maul's simply too powerful.

I agree and think that the earlier EU Maul/ TPM movie Maul were actually enough to deal with ROTS Kenobi and would have won all rounds with round 6 being kind of a toss up. Mustafar Kenobi was able to deal with a mentally unsure PSV, although I think that if Vader would have already been in the right mindset that he would have defeated Kenobi. This version of Maul would have been almost (not really) at that level, IMO, based on what Sidious, Jinn, and narratives said about him. PSV > this version of Maul > Kenobi.

Where did you find anything about Kenobi getting a one time amp?

@kbroskywalker:

With all the new edits, I'd say Legends Maul (including Sith Hunters) makes it up to 5.

In the new round, given Canon is allowed, Maul does not need backup.

The Sith Hunters Maul would win round 5 more times than not considering what Maul did in that comic...???

@kilius said:

Could potentially stop at round 4, but he certainly stops at round 5. Round 5 is a bit hairy, because I don't believe Obi Wan is on a consistent level here. ROTS Obi Wan at the point of The Invisible Hand, should be 50/50. As of his duel with Greivous however, Obi Wan entered a higher state of connection to the Force. The text even goes as far as to say that it wasn't Obi Wan fighting at all but the Force itself. I firmly believe this is the reason why he was able to go toe to toe with Pre Suit Vader, when the likes of Dooku and Cin Drallig were simply sweeped aside. The hindered argument just doesn't hold up. Anakin was embracing the Darkside and he wanted to kill Obi Wan. Obi Wan legitimately beat Vader at his most formidable. Maul can't contend with this. So he stops here.

That's in the EU (ROTS novel, iirc), and the EU also says that Vader should have won on Mustafar, was the better skilled, etc, but he didn't win because 1) Vader wasn't in the right frame of mind, and 2) it was the will of the Force that placed Kenobi on high ground when he never meant to land there. It depends on which source you use. Even Nic Gillard seems to contradict this version of Vader that you use. He says that PSV is an entire level above Kenobi and is on level with Yoda and Sidious.

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redheathen

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By the way, as to the apparent reverence people are giving to Ben Kenobi and Rebels Maul by saying that these are the prime versions of the characters, watch GL at the beginning of this video. He says that Ben and Vader are crippled, half men / half droid, and old. The weren't "real Jedi" at work. TPM is were we see "Jedi in their prime during the prime of the Jedi." I am pointing that GL says that this time period is the prime of the Jedi, but right before he says that, he says that we see a Jedi in his prime. He wants us to see how sophisticated they were in the art of battle.

Loading Video...

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SoImMe

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Doesn't clear. Definitely down at 4.

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Kilius

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#30  Edited By Kilius

@redheathen: I agree it depends on what source you use. It's the same problem as whether Vader was going all out on Luke or holding back inside, whether Yoda was trying to kill Dooku or just keep him from reaching his sailor, or whether Anakin's fighting style(before the rage amp) was really making any headway against Dooku. Different sources give contrary information. Strictly from the POV of the Stover novel, it comes to me that Obi Wan was being aided by his connection to the light side of the Force and that's what ultimately lead to his victory(or pyrrhic victory I should say). I believe it is Dark Lord: The rise of Darth Vader that says something along the lines of "but he was still caught between the light and the dark". But that's the only written statement I'm aware of that supports the hindered argument.

Edit: I tend to view the movies and EU as separate, as I don't think Nick Gillards ranking system completely agrees with the later. Kit Fisto for instance is only a tier 7 by his estimates, which is fine for the movie only universe as Fisto hasn't really done anything noteworthy except to survive the arena battle and be appointed to the Jedi Council. Legends Fisto was capable of speed blitzing two Magnaguards in LoE. These are the same Magnaguards that Obi Wan(once again without his newfound connection to the Force) wouldn't stood a chance against. Fisto is not a tier bellow Obi Wan, he's actually quite comparable.

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@redheathen:

If you use Episode only, you clearly see Kenobi unleashing his rage. After Gallia dies, Kenobi immediately leaps on Savage, kicks him in the chest, and prepares to slice his head in half until Maul blocks the strike. Then, he shows rage faces, and doesn't have the cool/taunting mindset he usually has.

It has been stated that Filoni wanted to right the wrongs of Gallia's death, thus gaining more concentration and somewhat of a determination amp.

As per Shadow Conspiracy, the environment helped Kenobi, because it made Maul and Savage run into each other. Kenobi was amped.

If it's TPM Maul, he loses in a grueling fight against ROTS Kenobi- Maul with Sith Hunters feats but no TCW feats splits, SoD Maul wins.

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If it's canon only, Maul stops at RotS Kenobi.

If it's a Legends duel, Maul isn't beating Obsession Kenobi.

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redheathen

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@redheathen:

If you use Episode only, you clearly see Kenobi unleashing his rage. After Gallia dies, Kenobi immediately leaps on Savage, kicks him in the chest, and prepares to slice his head in half until Maul blocks the strike. Then, he shows rage faces, and doesn't have the cool/taunting mindset he usually has.

It has been stated that Filoni wanted to right the wrongs of Gallia's death, thus gaining more concentration and somewhat of a determination amp.

As per Shadow Conspiracy, the environment helped Kenobi, because it made Maul and Savage run into each other. Kenobi was amped.

If it's TPM Maul, he loses in a grueling fight against ROTS Kenobi- Maul with Sith Hunters feats but no TCW feats splits, SoD Maul wins.

Oh yeah right. The amp from the show. I thought you meant it was stated in the OP. Thx for the clarification.

I still think that what Maul was originally meant to be when the character was created could have taken care of ROTS Kenobi with a difficult fight against post-Mustafar Kenobi. It is during combat that he did well. It was only post-combat that he screwed up. His duel as described in TPM novelization is incredible. It is well explained how he was fighting both Jinn and Kenobi at the same time offensively and defensively - and intelligently - at the same time. I understand that in 13 years Kenobi was able to become 'the' master of Soresu, I don't think that his ability with Soresu would have been better than Maul's abilities in his prime. Maul was better then Jinn, one of the Order's best, combined with Kenobi, virtually a Knight already. Jinn admitted Maul was the better weapons master and was impressed with Maul's ability to attack and defend at the same time, as well as with his ability to direct the duel.

Maul's "force skill" and "raw power" were greater than Tyranus' (Beware the Sith), and the accolades that Sidious gives Maul in the EU place Maul above what the Jedi Order has to offer without getting to Yoda's level. In the Dark Side Sourcebook, when Sidious is fighting Maul for his apprenticeship on Hypori, and Maul, aged ~17 yo, weakened to the point of almost dying, becomes so enraged with Sidious that he attacks and "nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all." This quote doesnt' say he is as good as Sidious, but what it does say is how fast Maul is and what his attacks were capable of being. We all know how fast Sidious is, so there is no question there, but he was "barely" able to keep up with Maul's "flurry" of deadly saber "blows". Sidious does't seem to fight back, so again, there is no comparison between them. It was a nonstop flurry of blows, not just strikes.

This was six more years before Theed happened, and those years were specifically focused on his Sith apprenticeship. Before this time, Sidious said that Maul's connection to the Force was nearly "perfect," and by the time he met Jinn and Kenobi on Naboo, Jinn said that the "Sith Lord was a living example of what the Jedi Master was always telling Obi-Wan about how best to hear the will of the Force." Maul, at the age of 23 had done what Kenobi did on Mustafar, which was completely let go and completely open himself to the Force, but that is only my opinion. To me, this says that TPM Maul >=< ROTS Mustafar Kenobi, but I understand that you or someone else may not see it that way. Especially the Maul haters. I do want to acknowledge that a Force user can completely open themselves up to the Force and yet not be as strong or skilled as another Force user who can open themselves to the Force.

Maul was " a weapon forged by the hateful energies of the dark side to ensure the victory over the Jedi Order" - hyperbole to illustrate that the force did use him as a vessel (complete enc). Sidious felt it was time to begin his Grand Plan and he felt that Maul was ready to reveal the Sith to the Jedi. To me, Sidious is the best gauge regarding Maul's abilities, and also, Sidious would not have done anything to hinder the Sith plan by sending in someone who wasn't capable of defeating the Jedi, which he discusses.

At this point in time, Sidious did not yet know of Anakin's existence, so Maul was his true and only apprentice, whom Sidious says is very powerful. In the new comic DV, Sidious said that losing Maul as his apprentice was a loss. We have old and new canon telling us that Maul, as a Sith and as a Sith apprentice,
is "one of the deadliest Sith in the Order's history" "one of the most efficiently trained" "one of the most dangerous and promising " "one of the most highly trained" Sith in the entire history of the Order, which goes back 25,000 years. In addition to all that, we have two old canon sources that say Maul could use Force lightning.

All of the above in addition to the fact that as of Theed, he had already killed several Jedi Masters who were all regarded some of the best fighters in the Order:

  1. Anoon Bondara, regarded by many as "the premiere practitioner of the weapon [lightsaber] in the Order", and also theorized to have been the Battle Master before Cin Drallig,
  2. Siolo Ur Manka, who had been considered "among the best Jedi warriors of the time", and then of course
  3. Qui-Gon Jinn, "...was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order." And of course we know that Jinn and Kenobi at that time, together, were no match for Maul. I am not saying that Maul would defeat Kenobi based on the fact that he lost to him on Naboo. I am making the point that one of the Jedi's most able swordsman + his padawan (Knight) could not defeat Maul.

I don't see this version of Maul losing to Kenobi pre-Mustafar, and maybe even Mustafar Kenobi. I stand by this EU + TPM Maul >=< ROTS Mustafar Kenobi. I'd love to hear your take on what I've said. Just FYI, I don't think that Kenobi is a pushover. I know he's quite strong, skilled, intelligent, etc. He is incredibly impressive.

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@kiliussaid:

As of the Invisible Hand it would be 50/50,

I'll ask again: How? Maul is at least equally skilled, more powerful, and physically stronger.

If you want proof, here ya go.

Maul is capable of beating Kenobi with the Force. This was in TCW, but the Florrum showings are only months before ROTS, and Kenobi was amped.

No circumstances can be made up for this one, and after this, Plo Koon notes Kenobi is injured and unfit for battle
No circumstances can be made up for this one, and after this, Plo Koon notes Kenobi is injured and unfit for battle
Here, Kenobi was fully prepared, and turned to face Maul, yet Maul still Gripped him. No circumstances. And Kenobi was amped.
Here, Kenobi was fully prepared, and turned to face Maul, yet Maul still Gripped him. No circumstances. And Kenobi was amped.
Maul was
Maul was "amped" here, but so was Kenobi. Cancels out.

While Kenobi has landed kicks on Maul, they did no real damage, and he was amped in the second. While Maul's kicks on Kenobi did much more damage. And this was an out of practice TCW S4 Maul.

Kenobi is kicked across the entire place, and then struggles to get up.
Kenobi is kicked across the entire place, and then struggles to get up.
Kenobi is enraged here, and attacks Maul, but Maul parries easily, forces Kenobi's blade against the box, and throws him backwith a kick.
Kenobi is enraged here, and attacks Maul, but Maul parries easily, forces Kenobi's blade against the box, and throws him backwith a kick.
Maul outmanuevers Kenobi. Then Maul dodges a strike from Kenobi, and kicks him down.
Maul outmanuevers Kenobi. Then Maul dodges a strike from Kenobi, and kicks him down.

Shortly after...

Obi-Wan Kenobi: We're outmatched.

Star Wars: The Clone Wars: Season 4- "Revenge"

In TCW, the dueling parts were stalemates, but in the overall fight, in S4 Maul beat Kenobi. Also, Maul has at least equal feats (skilfully) to Kenobi.

Before his prime, Maul comfortably defeated Anoon Bondara.

Darth Maul knew that he himself was the superior fighter. He could tell that the Jedi knew it, too, but Maul also knew that it didn't matter. The Jedi was committed to stopping the Sith, or at the very least slowing him down enough to let the others get away, even if it meant giving his own life to do so.

(...)

Darth Maul had seen the grim realization in the eyes of his foe: the knowledge that the Twi'lek could not defeat his adversary. Once defeat was conceded in the mind, its reality was inevitable. It was only a matter of time.He pressed his attack to an even higher intensity, driving the Jedi back toward his speeder bike, intending to pin him between the dual-bladed lightsaber and the bike. With his movements thus constricted, it would be mere moments before the Twi'lek's ten-tacled head was separated from his neck. But then he saw the desperation in the other's face suddenly give way to realization, and then to triumph.

Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

Before his prime and wounded from a blaster shot to the shoulder, Maul was comfortably beating the Dark Jedi Komari Vosa.

"Your right arm is slowing you down. Even your weapon is betraying you."

(...)

“Jar’Kai,” Maul snarled, deflecting her assault on reflex. “Predictable.”

Maul’s mind, stoking his wrath until it crystallized into a kind of malignant grace. Now he gripped the lightsaber in both arms, forcing his damaged right arm into service and gripping the hilt of his saber with his full strength. It was time for Juyo, the Way of the Vornskr—the last of the Seven Forms.

In his mind, the duel was all but over—his opponent was now dragging out the inevitable moment of defeat in a series of small humiliations. By turning to such diversionary tactics,Vosa had all but admitted that she was no match for the erratic staccato blows that he was delivering, seemingly from everywhere, all at once.

Maul: Lockdown

Before his prime and while wounded from an axe to the leg, Maul quickly overwhelmed Qui-Gon Jinn.

No Caption Provided

Qui-Gon knew this man was trained in the fighting arts of a Jedi, a skilled and dangerous adversary. Worse, he was younger, quicker, and stronger than Qui-Gon, and he was gaining ground rapidly. The Jedi Master blocked him again and again, but could not find an opening that would provide any chance of escape.

The Phantom Menace novel

Maul then beats Qui-Gon again.

No Caption Provided

Slowly, Darth Maul began to edge his way back into the fight, becoming the aggressor once more. Hurry! Obi-Wan hissed soundlessly, willing the lasers to pause and the gates to come down. Stroke for stroke, Qui-Gon and Darth Maul battled about the rim of the melting pit, locked in a combat that seemed endless and forever and could be won by neither. Then the Sith Lord parried a downstroke, whirled swiftly to the right, and with his back to the Jedi Master, made a blind, reverse lunge. Too late, Qui-Gon recognized the danger. The blade of the Sith Lord's lightsaber caught him directly in the midsection, its brilliant length burning through clothing and flesh and bone.

The Phantom Menace novel

Before even becoming a Sith Lord and while both considerably amped and considerably hindered (they cancel out) he nearly bested a somewhat toying/holding back Sidious, and perhaps it was Maul's rage amp evaporating that allowed Sidious to survive. Given Maul's hindrance, and even challenging Sidious (toying or not), it is impressive. And this Maul would be stomped by TCW Maul.

Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows.

Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood.

Dark Side Sourcebook

A clone of Maul beats ANH Vader. This is a, for all intents and purposes, TPM Maul, and only isn't due to making sense story-wise. TPM Maul is pre-prime Maul.

Lands a saber hit on Vader, and Vader stays well only due to his durability.
Lands a saber hit on Vader, and Vader stays well only due to his durability.
Leaps away from a strike from Vader, and once again hits Vader.
Leaps away from a strike from Vader, and once again hits Vader.
Maul cuts off Vader's mask, and the latter has to resort to a suicidal manuever only made possible by his metal durability. Actually, if this was a normal human with no armor, they would have been dead long ago.
Maul cuts off Vader's mask, and the latter has to resort to a suicidal manuever only made possible by his metal durability. Actually, if this was a normal human with no armor, they would have been dead long ago.

In his TCW prime, Maul fights Masters Bruu Jun-Fan and Ko Solok. Jun-Fan struggles to defend, and Solok keeps getting floored until he is killed with a Saber Throw. Jun-Fan only gained somewhat of an edge in H2H, and he was the best one of the Order in H2H according to Yoda.

Jun-Fan struggles to parry Maul's strike, and Ko Solok is kicked and floored.
Jun-Fan struggles to parry Maul's strike, and Ko Solok is kicked and floored.
Jun-Fan struggles to parry, and Maul's power strikes floor Ko Solok.
Jun-Fan struggles to parry, and Maul's power strikes floor Ko Solok.
Maul then gets through Solok's guard with a Saber Throw. Jun-Fan takes this chance and nearly chokes Maul out physically- but Maul simply stabs Jun-Fan with his clawed feet.
Maul then gets through Solok's guard with a Saber Throw. Jun-Fan takes this chance and nearly chokes Maul out physically- but Maul simply stabs Jun-Fan with his clawed feet.

Maul effortlessly parries an enraged Jedi Master Judd's strikes while not really giving it his all, and after Savage was knocked out of comission by carbonite, Maul saw he was outnumbered, got real, and beat Judd with a hilt strike.

Maul effortlessly parries and goads Judd to attack and give in to the Dark.
Maul effortlessly parries and goads Judd to attack and give in to the Dark.
Maul beats Judd with a hilt strike
Maul beats Judd with a hilt strike

Blitzes three MagnaGuards and takes two others out with the Force.

No Caption Provided

Maul duels Mace Windu and Aayla Secura casually, knocking the latter out with a kick.

No Caption Provided

Kenobi's victory over Grievous was also mainly due to him having a style edge, and the novel states Kenobi's defenses were overloaded.

because they, along with Anakin are at roughly the same level.

What? Maul and Kenobi are on level 8, Anakin is a 9; they are not on the same level. Anakin>Maul>Kenobi.

As of the duel with Grievous however, Obi Wan entered to a higher state of connection with the Force.

He entered a state akin to Oneness- but only that time. He didn't do it against: Ventress, Savage, Maul, his other duels with Grievous, or Dooku.

The text even goes as far as to say Obi Wan wasn't fighting at all, so much as the Force was guiding his actions.

Jedi fight somewhat like that.

It is through this connection, that I firmly believe is the reason Obi Wan was able to contend with and even beat Pre Suit Vader;

Obi-Wan beat Pre-Suit Vader because Vader was hindered emotionally, more than Obi-Wan was at the beginning, because they both knew each other's styles, and Soresu is good against aggressive styles like Djem So. And Vader was arrogant at the end. He could have jumped OVER Obi-Wan, but instead jumped right at Kenobi. Vader also nearly killed Kenobi through strangulation- and nearly bent his arms. Kenobi was also losing until he used Electronic Manipulation to make Vader's robotic hand become useless. And Kenobi admitted that he was outmatched and would lose- he said that he would not be able to beat Vader, only give him serious grief.

you know, the guy who made a mockery of Dooku

That was not Vader, it was Anakin. It counts as ROTS Anakin, not Pre-Suit Vader. Also, Anakin was only slightly superior to the Count. The Count was only solidly beaten when Anakin was amped.

and Cin Drallig.

That was Knightfall Vader, who is super powerful in the Force, and some say he was close to Yoda/Sidious; this is not entirely true, but still. Knightfall Vader was not hindered; he was a tier 9 duelist and Dooku+ level Force user. Hindered Mustafar Vader is considerably below that.

I don't buy the popular "Anakin was hindered" argument.

But multiple sources state so. You can learn more here.

Invisible Hand Obi Wan 50/50 split

Maul wins 6-7/10 due to being stronger, more powerful and slightly better in skill- although Soresu could negate this.

Utapau Obi Wan stomps

Not even close. Maul still wins for reasons mentioned above.

@redheathen said:

Oh yeah right. The amp from the show. I thought you meant it was stated in the OP.

It IS mentioned in the OP, under "Kenobi can focus himself at will." That's what *cough cough* Kenobi wankers *cough cough* say Kenobi's amp was, to try and put him >Maul and Savage. But the majority of people know better.

I still think that what Maul was originally meant to be when the character was created could have taken care of ROTS Kenobi

I think Legends Maul can split with Kenobi- due to considerably superior strength, roughly equal dueling, but what I feel hinders Maul is the negation of his power advantage. But now that I think about it, maybe Legends Maul can beat Kenobi 5,5/10- mainly due to physical advantage.

It is during combat that he did well. It was only post-combat that he screwed up.

Arrogance really won't play a factor- it's just that Kenobi should be the tiniest bit above Maul in skill, they should be even in power, and Maul stronger. And Soresu would help Kenobi even more.

His duel as described in TPM novelization is incredible.

Ikr. He pummels Kenobi with physical strength in the end (I really liked that), and he was depicted as better than those two.

I understand that in 13 years Kenobi was able to become 'the' master of Soresu,

This helps because Soresu is a good counter for Maul's Juyo.

I don't think that his ability with Soresu would have been better than Maul's abilities in his prime.

I'd say they're equal- but the more I think about it, especially Maul vs ANH Vader, maybe Maul's the superior one. I still say they're roughly equals, a saber match could go either way.

Maul's "force skill" and "raw power" were greater than Tyranus' (Beware the Sith),

While I definitely agree Maul has considerably more Force potential than Tyranus, and could become Yoda/Sidious tier if he filled the limits of his potential, he's below Dooku in power- TCW Maul really comes close. Legends Maul is a bit farther off.

and the accolades that Sidious gives Maul in the EU place Maul above what the Jedi Order has to offer without getting to Yoda's level.

Well, there's Mace Windu, and later on Anakin, but yeah. Even Plagueis compliments Maul again and again.

In the Dark Side Sourcebook, when Sidious is fighting Maul for his apprenticeship on Hypori, and Maul, aged ~17 yo, weakened to the point of almost dying, becomes so enraged with Sidious that he attacks and "nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all." This quote doesnt' say he is as good as Sidious, but what it does say is how fast Maul is and what his attacks were capable of being.

I know, that's one of Maul's best showings. And he considerably improves. That's also a showing of skill (giving Sidious serious grief) and strength.

This was six more years before Theed happened,

But Maul was seventeen on Hypori... and he was twenty-two in Theed, right? That's five years. But still a great feat.

To me, this says that TPM Maul >=< ROTS Mustafar Kenobi,

Yeah, previously I really thought TPM Maul<ROTS Kenobi, but you've swayed me to the uncertain side.

Especially the Maul haters.

The Maul haters *cough cough* especially- you-know-who *cough cough* have TCW Kenobi as >TCW Maul AND Savage.

At this point in time, Sidious did not yet know of Anakin's existence,

True, and Sidious saying he's good to deal with the best of the Order holds a lot of weight. At the time, only Windu or Yoda could beat Maul.

In the new comic DV, Sidious said that losing Maul as his apprentice was a loss.

Yeah- and he said Dooku was a useless pawn, a proton torpedo.

We have old and new canon telling us that Maul, as a Sith and as a Sith apprentice,

is "one of the deadliest Sith in the Order's history" "one of the most efficiently trained" "one of the most dangerous and promising " "one of the most highly trained" Sith in the entire history of the Order, which goes back 25,000 years.

True- in an Order that includes Malak, Revan, Bane, Sidious, Tenebrous, and Plagueis.

In addition to all that, we have two old canon sources that say Maul could use Force lightning.

I doubt Legends Maul can- but it's entirely possible that Rebels Maul can, given his studies on Malachor. And that Vader vs Maul magazine.

Anoon Bondara, regarded by many as "the premiere practitioner of the weapon [lightsaber] in the Order", and also theorized to have been the Battle Master before Cin Drallig,

Wasn't he weaponsmaster? I rank Bondara above Drallig, tbh, and, of the time, perhaps the 4th? 5th? 6th best duelist in the Order? Still, given that pre-TPM Maul creamed him, it is certainly in Kenobi's league.

Siolo Ur Manka, who had been considered "among the best Jedi warriors of the time",

Yeah, and most people dismiss him as "an old man with a stick."

Qui-Gon Jinn, "...was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order."

I also think he was stated as near-equal to Mace Windu.

I am not saying that Maul would defeat Kenobi based on the fact that he lost to him on Naboo.

Yeah, that would be flawed logic. But people also twist it and say: Kenobi beat Maul on Naboo, he stomps him as of ROTS. Mainly on YouTube.

I don't see this version of Maul losing to Kenobi pre-Mustafar,

Me too. He can potentially lose to ROTS Kenobi- but even then. TCW Maul, without a shade of doubt in my mind, takes the majority over Mustafar ROTS Kenobi.

Just FYI, I don't think that Kenobi is a pushover.

No, Kenobi is definitely not a pushover, and a direct rival of Maul. Your argument is good, and I'm holding TPM Maul in a higher regard now.

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#37  Edited By redheathen

@thesithmaster I hope that my answer method is understandable. Please let me know if any clarification is needed.

[redheathen said:]

1) Oh yeah right. The amp from the show. I thought you meant it was stated in the OP.

It IS mentioned in the OP, under "Kenobi can focus himself at will." That's what *cough cough* Kenobi wankers *cough cough* say Kenobi's amp was, to try and put him >Maul and Savage. But the majority of people know better.

1) Ah okay. So opening oneself up to the Force/ focusing is considered an amp- if I understand correctly. ???

2) I still think that what Maul was originally meant to be when the character was created could have taken care of ROTS Kenobi

I think Legends Maul can split with Kenobi- due to considerably superior strength, roughly equal dueling, but what I feel hinders Maul is the negation of his power advantage. But now that I think about it, maybe Legends Maul can beat Kenobi 5,5/10- mainly due to physical advantage.

2) Apologies, but what do you mean by "negation of his power advantage"?

3) It is during combat that he did well. It was only post-combat that he screwed up.

Arrogance really won't play a factor- it's just that Kenobi should be the tiniest bit above Maul in skill, they should be even in power, and Maul stronger. And Soresu would help Kenobi even more.

3) Kenobi wasn't above Maul in skill in TPM, if that is what you are talking about, which is discussed in the novelization. I say that because I was discussing their Theed Palace duel.

4) I understand that in 13 years Kenobi was able to become 'the' master of Soresu,

This helps because Soresu is a good counter for Maul's Juyo.

4) Yes, exactly.

5) I don't think that his ability with Soresu would have been better than Maul's abilities in his prime.

I'd say they're equal- but the more I think about it, especially Maul vs ANH Vader, maybe Maul's the superior one. I still say they're roughly equals, a saber match could go either way.

5) I just used the 0BBY Vader vs Maul as a measuring stick in another thread. I do agree with you that they are roughly equals.

6) Maul's "force skill" and "raw power" were greater than Tyranus' (Beware the Sith),

While I definitely agree Maul has considerably more Force potential than Tyranus, and could become Yoda/Sidious tier if he filled the limits of his potential, he's below Dooku in power- TCW Maul really comes close. Legends Maul is a bit farther off.

6) Those are direct quotations from the book, which was about TPM Maul and Darth Tyranus, and I got a confirmation from Leland Chee via Twitter that it's just as valid as any other (then) c-canon source. We had a discussion on here regarding "raw power" vs "potential power" and most people, including myself, do not equate raw power with potential power. If you think about it, you'll realize they are not the same. I think it has to do with what they are able to draw upon, such as when being amped. As to force skill, I hit upon this a couple times in the other thread I just posted in. It's not at the beginning.

7) and the accolades that Sidious gives Maul in the EU place Maul above what the Jedi Order has to offer without getting to Yoda's level.

Well, there's Mace Windu, and later on Anakin, but yeah. Even Plagueis compliments Maul again and again.

7) I discuss the accolades that place him higher, without scrolling up, in the other thread as well, also in number 10 below.

8) In the Dark Side Sourcebook, when Sidious is fighting Maul for his apprenticeship on Hypori, and Maul, aged ~17 yo, weakened to the point of almost dying, becomes so enraged with Sidious that he attacks and "nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all." This quote doesnt' say he is as good as Sidious, but what it does say is how fast Maul is and what his attacks were capable of being.

I know, that's one of Maul's best showings. And he considerably improves. That's also a showing of skill (giving Sidious serious grief) and strength.

8) Sidious didn't fight back at that time, but it is nonetheless an extraordinary feat.

9) This was six more years before Theed happened,

But Maul was seventeen on Hypori... and he was twenty-two in Theed, right? That's five years. But still a great feat.

9) You are correct. Many times when I think of Maul's age on Naboo I am also thinking about Kenobi being three years older than him, so I mix up the numbers and make Maul 23 instead of 22. I do this all the time. Please always point out when I say something wrong, and thank you for catching that. :)

10) To me, this says that TPM Maul >=< ROTS Mustafar Kenobi,

Yeah, previously I really thought TPM Maul<ROTS Kenobi, but you've swayed me to the uncertain side.

10) The pro-Maul argument that I discuss in the other thread hinges on how valuable Maul is to Sidious; the power in Maul that Sidious felt when he met him; that Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever and he thought that Maul was strong enough (had the potential) to be his successor; when he was told to kill Maul and when he learned of Maul's death, he became physically sick; he's been trained to be a Sith since he was an infant /toddler - by the strongest Sith ever; Maul is pure rage and hatred; hyperbole such as the dark side itself forged Maul to be its weapon to kill the Jedi; Maul killed the galaxy's unparalleled Force combatant while also fighting another Jedi master; Maul killed the Jedi Order's premier practitioner of the lightsaber; and other info.

11) At this point in time, Sidious did not yet know of Anakin's existence,

True, and Sidious saying he's good to deal with the best of the Order holds a lot of weight. At the time, only Windu or Yoda could beat Maul.

11) To me, that depends on what accolades you read, but yeah, I do agree with you. Although SoD Maul stood up to him pretty well - at the same time as Secura.

12) In the new comic DV, Sidious said that losing Maul as his apprentice was a loss.

Yeah- and he said Dooku was a useless pawn, a proton torpedo.

12) It's discussed in one or two of the novels as well, but not in these exact words.

13) We have old and new canon telling us that Maul, as a Sith and as a Sith apprentice,is "one of the deadliest Sith in the Order's history" "one of the most efficiently trained" "one of the most dangerous and promising " "one of the most highly trained" Sith in the entire history of the Order, which goes back 25,000 years.

True- in an Order that includes Malak, Revan, Bane, Sidious, Tenebrous, and Plagueis.

13) Exactly, but there aren't so many feats for him, but then he never had to use a lot of his skills. I got the timing wrong. I said the Sith Order was 25k years old. That is how old the Jedi Order is. From Legends wookiipedia, the Sith were founded in 6900 BBY. And again, his master is acknowledged as the most powerful Sith ever. In old canon, it is TPM Sidious version (Sith Apprentice book), and he chose Maul as his own apprentice.

14) In addition to all that, we have two old canon sources that say Maul could use Force lightning.

I doubt Legends Maul can- but it's entirely possible that Rebels Maul can, given his studies on Malachor. And that Vader vs Maul magazine.

14) It is what it is, and Leland Chee says those sources are valid. One source says TPM, and the other says TCW Maul.

15) Anoon Bondara, regarded by many as "the premiere practitioner of the weapon [lightsaber] in the Order", and also theorized to have been the Battle Master before Cin Drallig,

Wasn't he weaponsmaster? I rank Bondara above Drallig, tbh, and, of the time, perhaps the 4th? 5th? 6th best duelist in the Order? Still, given that pre-TPM Maul creamed him, it is certainly in Kenobi's league.

15) Well, it is the accolade given. If we use accolades given for Dooku, then why not for Maul?

16) Siolo Ur Manka, who had been considered "among the best Jedi warriors of the time",

Yeah, and most people dismiss him as "an old man with a stick."

16) That old man with a stick was faster than Maul.

17) Qui-Gon Jinn, "...was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order."

I also think he was stated as near-equal to Mace Windu.

17) I remember reading that somewhere a long time ago, but I haven't been able to find the original source.

18) I am not saying that Maul would defeat Kenobi based on the fact that he lost to him on Naboo.

Yeah, that would be flawed logic. But people also twist it and say: Kenobi beat Maul on Naboo, he stomps him as of ROTS. Mainly on YouTube.

18) And people depend on personal opinions expressed in those videos instead of looking at the original sources themselves.

19) I don't see this version of Maul losing to Kenobi pre-Mustafar,

Me too. He can potentially lose to ROTS Kenobi- but even then. TCW Maul, without a shade of doubt in my mind, takes the majority over Mustafar ROTS Kenobi.

19) Maybe I put too much emphasis on what I think the original Maul was created to be, but when Lucas created him, he did say that Maul is your worst nightmare. I'd think that a Jedi's master's worst nightmare is an evil they can't beat.

20) Just FYI, I don't think that Kenobi is a pushover.

No, Kenobi is definitely not a pushover, and a direct rival of Maul. Your argument is good, and I'm holding TPM Maul in a higher regard now.

20) Thank you! =)

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@redheathen said:

I hope that my answer method is understandable. Please let me know if any clarification is needed.

It's understandable enough, yes. No worries.

1) Ah okay. So opening oneself up to the Force/ focusing is considered an amp- if I understand correctly. ???

Not exactly- but given my debates with Kbro, he interprets the Florrum amp as "Kenobi can focus himself at will." Given he's the OP, and that these words are mentioned in the OP, I got that idea.

2) Apologies, but what do you mean by "negation of his power advantage"?

One of the main advantages Maul has over Kenobi is power. He is noticeably more powerful than the Jedi. But most of his feats vs Kenobi come from TCW. Some of his other impressive feats are also in TCW. TCW Maul also improved. But TCW is Canon, and we're discussing Legends Maul. What I'm trying to say is: Maul doesn't boast so big and important power advantage. I'm not saying Maul's inferior in power- but I think it's much closer than TCW Maul vs Kenobi. I know, I know- Legends TPM Maul has really good power feats, such as this:

Shatters a door inward.

Darth Maul pulled his double lightsaber from his belt and held his thumb upon the ignition button. He took a deep breath and centered himself in the swirls and eddies of the dark side. Then, his power and concentration thus augmented, he thrust forward his free hand as though hurling an invisible ball.

The door shattered inward.

Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

Moves a large boulder eight meters without looking at it.

On Railtiir, at the site of what had only been recently the Bartokks' fortress, Darth Maul used the Force to lift a heavy boulder from a pile of rubble. Maul had used the Sith Infiltrator's sensors to scan the fortress ruins for any sign on C-3PX. The sensors penetrated deep below the collapsed floors and fallen walls, searching for any trace of metal that might belong to the golden assassin droid. Now, Maul found himself sifting through the area of what had been a chamber near the fortess's dungeon. Maul did not watch the boulder as it levitated away through the air, and he ignored the loud thud, eight meters away, that sounded as he released the boulder from his power.

Episode I Adventures: The Fury of Darth Maul

While fifteen, Maul can release a Force Scream that could collapse the barracks of the Orsis Academy.

Straightening, he bared his filed teeth and tensed his body, close to loosing a scream that would have brought the barracks down around him.

Restraint

Overloads a dampening field.

No Caption Provided

Is far more powerful than Darsha Assant in the Force.

She [Darsha] faced the ultimate enemy; the Sith [Maul] was far more powerful than she in the Force.

Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

Maul can also mainpulate gravity with the Force.

The discipline of the dark side, which let him manipulate gravity itsel, slowing his descent enough to hit the ground without becoming a lifeless bag of broken bones and ruptured organs.

Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

And he has the accolades. But Kenobi can't be underestimated...

Drops a huge thing on MagnaGuards.

No Caption Provided

Blows Durge apart with a Force Repulse.

No Caption Provided

Moves Durge's starfighter.

No Caption Provided

Hurls Ventress back.

No Caption Provided

Then he threw her backward with a Force push. She hit a column hard enough to hear something crack, and staggered to her feet.

The Clone Wars movie novel

There are more feats, but here are a few. I think the thing that cracked in the last quote were Ventress's ribs, but right now I don't have more than this.

Kenobi wasn't above Maul in skill in TPM,

Of course he wasn't, I'm talking about ROTS Kenobi. TPM Kenobi is a confirmed tier 6/tier 7:

George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting.

Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it's a huge jump from one level to another.

Nick Gillard

While TPM Maul is a confirmed tier 8:

Dooku & Maul are eight, but there is a huge difference inside the numbers themselves.

Nick Gillard

And we have this:

The battle wore on, and for a time it was fought evenly. But Darth Maul was the stronger of the two and was driven by a frenzy that surpassed even the frantic determination that fueled Obi-Wan. Eventually, the Sith Lord began to wear the young Jedi down. Bit by bit, he pressed him back, carrying the attack to him, looking to catch him off guard. Obi-Wan could sense his body weakening, and his fear of what it would mean if he, too, were to fall, began to grow.

(...)

Discarding the lesser half of his severed weapon, he counter attacked swiftly, striking at Obi-Wan with enough force that he knocked the young Jedi sideways and off balance. Quickly he struck him again, harder still, and this time Obi-Wan lost his footing completely and tumbled over the edge of the pit, his lightsaber flying from his hand.

The Phantom Menace novel

TPM Maul>>TPM Kenobi in skill, that's pretty obvious. And Kenobi was rage amped in the TPM duel.

I just used the 0BBY Vader vs Maul as a measuring stick in another thread.

Oh, yeah, that thread... did you read my debate with Richard96? I say it was hilarious. Vader vs Maul is a great showing, one of Maul's best, and people lowball it because they can't accept Maul beating Vader.

Those are direct quotations from the book, which was about TPM Maul and Darth Tyranus, and I got a confirmation from Leland Chee via Twitter that it's just as valid as any other (then) c-canon source.

I never debunked this or attempted to do so... I was just saying that it is talking about potential, a possibility, not the powers they had unlocked. In the latter regard, Tyranus is better- but Maul certainly is in Yoda/Sidious's tier when it comes to potential and could become, IMO, as powerful as them if his potential was fulfilled.

Sidious didn't fight back at that time,

Sidious was somewhat toying with Maul, but in the Plagueis novel there's a reference to Hypori, and it somehow seems Sidious took the fight seriously.

Plagueis looked over his shoulder, his eyes narrowed in question. "You've fought him in a serious way?

(...)

"I stranded him on Hypori for a month without food and with only a horde of assassin droids for company. Then I returned to goad and challenge him. All things considered, he fought well, even when I deprived him of his lightsaber.

Darth Plagueis

This was only Plagueis asking, and Sidious didn't give him a clear response, but it says "challenge" and "deprivation of lightsaber", which means Sidious wasn't completely toying. Which makes it more impressive of a feat.

Please always point out when I say something wrong,

Sure.

and thank you for catching that. :)

No problem.

when he was told to kill Maul and when he learned of Maul's death, he became physically sick;

Really? I didn't know that. Another suitable accolade for Maul, given that Sidious uses very powerful Force users as slaves and blunt instruments (Dooku, Ventress, Sedriss), but uses Maul as an apprentice. Well, Sidious has considered Maul an instrument once, but he's dubbed him a Sith and called him Lord Maul.

Maul killed the galaxy's unparalleled Force combatant while also fighting another Jedi master;

True. And Maul had the clear upper hand in a 2v1, as I have shown in post 35. I even put captions. We clearly see Jun-Fan struggles to parry Maul's strikes, and Ko Solok on the floor all the time, whether it be by virtue of kicks to the face or power blows.

Maul killed the Jedi Order's premier practitioner of the lightsaber;

Is this Bondara you're talking about? If so, I might add that Maul did it with ease.

Although SoD Maul stood up to him pretty well - at the same time as Secura.

That's Sod Maul, though- Canon Maul. We're discussing Legends Maul.

Exactly, but there aren't so many feats for him,

For who? For Maul? I think there are quite enough feats for him. Easily beating Anoon Bondara, one of the top 5 of the Order at the time (IMO), but it is entirely possible given his accolades, easily getting the upper hand while injured against Komari Vosa, someone who has butchered twenty Mandalorian warriors as a Padawan, beating Qui-Gon+Obi-Wan, the former of which being near-equal to Mace Windu at the time, and the latter one being virtually a Jedi Knight are very impressive. Also, we have Maul giving Sidious grief. At this point, Sidious is close enough to Plagueis. Plagueis was considered the most powerful Sith up to his time, atomized Maladians while injured, while pre-prime beat Venamis who knew his style and got the jump on him, and had his mere presence create the harshest winter ever on Naboo. Also, Maul defeated ANH Vader, who is superior to Old Ben Kenobi, superior to 5 Jedi, beat An'ya Kuro, and is of course Darth Vader.

TPM Maul is a very skilled combatants, and while he's not that wealthy in feats his feats are really good.

From Legends wookiipedia, the Sith were founded in 6900 BBY.

Still, that accolade is very impressive, given the number of very good Sith. A rundown of some of them:

Emperor Vitiate, who has drained an entire planet, beaten an entire Sith Strike Team (Dark Council), stomped JK Revan+Malak, was considered all-powerful, beaten Master Braga's Jedi strike team, and would be capable of beating Revan+Meetra+Scourge.

Darth Malak, someone stated a superior duelist to Revan, someone who has beaten Bastila Shan, incapped Revan temporarily, carved through Mandalorians, was capable of Whirlwind, Slam, Wound, Drain, Lightning, Sorcery, Affliction and Suppression and was considered one of the most powerful Sith.

Exar Kun, someone who pummeled Vodo Baas, stalemated Ulic Qel-Droma, overcame a Dark Side spell from Naga Sadow, was considered one of the most powerful Sith, was far more powerful than any living Jedi at the time, is capable of esoteric Force Blasts, and had a Force Scream heard across the galaxy.

Naga Sadow, someone who was considered one of the most powerful Sith, was one of the best Sith alchemists ever, is considered by his peers to be the best Sith, and can send The Old Republic player flying (this can include Darth Nox.)

Darth Nihilus, someone capable of draining entire planets that have an entire Jedi Order, Force Pushing Traya, dominating Visas Marr, holding a cruiser together, and blowing back a powerful strike team composed of Meetra+Marr+Canderous Ordo.

Darth Bane, one of the most powerful Sith ever, considered all-powerful, someone who considerably injured Zannah and pummeled her with kicks, ragdolled+killed Sith apprentices as a trainee himself, beaten and driven back Kas'im in their final duel and even in sparring matches, ragdolled Sith Masters, and has Lightning capable of cooking people and incinerating rocks.

Darth Zannah, someone who could possibly be >Bane, is a master Sorceress and has driven people mad, unconciously snapped two Jedi's necks, disintegrated her cousin's arm unconciously, could challenge Bane, defended bravely against a Rage Amped Orbalisk Bane, held her own against amped Jedi, and had "impenetrable" defenses.

Darth Tenebrous, someone who is >Bane and Zannah, created an explosion-repellent Barrier (that explosion collapsed caves and mines), held gigantic amounts of cave rubble, and runs faster than Plagueis.

Darth Plagueis, someone who has atomized armored assassins, beaten Venamis while severly hindered, nearly kept up with Tenebrous while pre-prime, was imperceptible to a blaster bolt dodging droid, had a presence in the Dark Side capable of creating the harshest winter ever seen on Naboo and shake mountains with earthquakes (he didn't try to do this), kicked and punched through heads and torsos, and is >all the aforementioned Sith Lords.

One source says TPM,

Which source? For TCW, I know it's the Magazine. But what makes me doubt this is that Plagueis said Sidious didn't train Maul to be a Sith apprentice (given that he held back Dun Moch, and instead taught Maul Niman and Teras Kasi) and was trained more as an assassin, a killing machine, and is more saber-driven. In Canon, though (especially TCW) Maul has shown willingness to abuse the Force, and in Rebels studied some Sith holocrons.

That old man with a stick was faster than Maul.

One of if not the main reasons Manka beat Maul in the first place.

but I haven't been able to find the original source.

Same.

And people depend on personal opinions expressed in those videos instead of looking at the original sources themselves.

It's mainly in the comment section. But those people are mostly casuals or have only watched the movies+TCW/SWR. Those people also claim many other stupid things. One said that Windu>Sidious (most of them do) and claimed that in "neutral ground" Yoda>>Sidious. Also, Vader>>Dooku>>>Maul and stuff like that.

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#39  Edited By redheathen

@thesithmaster said:

1) Not exactly- but given my debates with Kbro, he interprets the Florrum amp as "Kenobi can focus himself at will." Given he's the OP, and that these words are mentioned in the OP, I got that idea.

Hilarious because it's true.

2) Maul doesn't boast so big and important power advantage. I'm not saying Maul's inferior in power- but I think it's much closer than TCW Maul vs Kenobi. I know, I know- Legends TPM Maul has really good power feats...

I think there is a much larger gap. I know he increased in power as of TCW, but I think the difference between the two as of Theed was more like a chasm or gorge.

3) Moves a large boulder eight meters without looking at it

I did not even think about that and great point. He hardly noticed it, which a lot of Force users need to do.

4) While fifteen, Maul can release a Force Scream that could collapse the barracks of the Orsis Academy.

Good catch. I read right over this without acknowledging it.

5) But Kenobi can't be underestimated...

Agree, but the micro Clone Wars series had all the characters OP'd, but I liked it.

6) Of course he wasn't, I'm talking about ROTS Kenobi. TPM Kenobi is a confirmed tier 6/tier 7:

Thanks for clarification, and I'm familiar with that leveling. =)

7) And Kenobi was rage amped in the TPM duel.

He was. He totally was, and a lot of people miss that.

8) Oh, yeah, that thread... did you read my debate with Richard96?

I read most of the comments yesterday and still haven't gotten around to commenting on everything.

9) Vader vs Maul is a great showing, one of Maul's best, and people lowball it because they can't accept Maul beating Vader.

That or they come up with reasons why it doesn't count.

10) I never debunked this or attempted to do so... I was just saying that it is talking about potential, a possibility, not the powers they had unlocked. In the latter regard, Tyranus is better- but Maul certainly is in Yoda/Sidious's tier when it comes to potential and could become, IMO, as powerful as them if his potential was fulfilled.

I don't really see Raw Power as the same thing as Potential Power. At first I did, but then got into a discussion about it with others and now understand the difference. I think. lol It can seem to be that way, but even if it is, Tyranus is less than Maul, just as he is in Force Skill. That said, Tyranus was listed way above Maul in cunning, with Maul's being pretty low. I know that has been contradicted in old and new canon. This info is as reliable as most any other accolade. I do agree with what you are saying about his potential.

11) Sidious was somewhat toying with Maul, but in the Plagueis novel there's a reference to Hypori, and it somehow seems Sidious took the fight seriously. ... Sidious wasn't completely toying. Which makes it more impressive of a feat.

Oh, yeah, he definitely was epically messing with Maul's head. The Dark Side Sourcebook said that the blows came after that. It's just an extra source, but it's there. You make a good point with the Darth Plagueis quotes.

12) (Sidious becoming physically sick when he's told to kill Maul and when he learns that Maul is dead)

It's in the book Darth Plagueis. It's in another too, but I can't remember which one atm. ...wait, maybe it is Lockdown.

13) Sidious has considered Maul an instrument once, but he's dubbed him a Sith and called him Lord Maul.

In every book, Maul is called an apprentice. The issue is that in DP, Sidious lies to Plagueis about Maul. If you read the entire novel, Sidious regularly lies to Plagueis. Every other book, he is called an apprentice. There is at least one other book (one of the Maul novels) but maybe two, Plagueis acknowledges that Maul is Sidious' apprentice. Sidious thinks to himself that Maul is his apprentice, and Sidious and Plagueis discuss it privately. <== both of those points mean that Maul wasn't anywhere near and therefore couldn't hear what was being said. He wasn't lied to by Sidious about becoming his apprentice. Sidious told him he had to earn it, and he did.

Some people seem to think that being called an instrument means that Maul was of little value. In The Wrath of Darth Maul, on Hypori, Sidious said:

"From this day forward." Sidious said," you are a Sith Lord. You have chosen a path of darkness, the path of power. You are Lord Maul. You are my instrument."

It doesn't mean anything other than he does as his master bids him to do. A lot of people point to certain words used to describe Maul and think of him as a lap dog. Some of these people have even read the novel DP and use it to prove it, but the funny thing is that the same novel discusses how Sidious did the same thing with Plagueis, his master. There aren't that many Sith apprentices who don't do their master's biding.

BTW, just to add this tidbit, it is in the novel TWoDM, where Sidious says that he is "prepared to lose what I most value" when talking about sending Maul to his final test to become his apprentice. The test had the real possibility of proving to be fatal, but Maul had to prove he was worthy of the apprenticeship, even if he had to die trying.

14) For who? For Maul? I think there are quite enough feats for him

I don't think so. People discuss feats that are epic, and you can't really come back at them with comparable feats. I can't think of examples right now, but if I remember later, then I'll get back to it. BTW, I'm talking about Nihilus, Valkorian, Super Saiyan Revan, etc, type feats. HOWEVER you provided some great examples. Thanks for that. =)

15) Which source? For TCW, I know it's the Magazine.

The book Darth Maul: Sith Apprentice. It's about TPM Maul, and in it, it says that Maul's master, Sidious, "is the most powerful Sith Master who has ever lived."

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@redheathen said:

I think there is a much larger gap.

In power? You think the gap between Legends Maul/ROTS Kenobi is larger than TCW Maul/ROTS Kenobi? I disagree, tbh. I say TCW Maul>Legends Maul (pre-TCW) in Force. Mainly because TCW Maul was able to ragdoll Kenobi:

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And being able to drag a Jedi shuttle.

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And he has accolades putting him above TPM Maul:

Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he'd been in Sidious's presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo.

Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

Blows an army away with a Force blast along with Savage. Maul probably did half of the work, and this army is in the +100 range. And the dudes have heavy armor. Jedi Padawan Dray is also blown away.

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Brings down a tunnel.

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but I think the difference between the two as of Theed was more like a chasm or gorge.

The difference between TPM Maul and Kenobi is enormous, yes; I'm talking about ROTS Kenobi.

Agree, but the micro Clone Wars series had all the characters OP'd,

Not all of the time... I'm only counting three outlier instances: Grievous vs Jedi on Hypori, Kenobi vs Durge on Muunilinst, and Mace Windu vs Droids on Dantooine. Why? Because Grievous shouldn't be stomping two Council members, especially when Depa Billaba can give him grief, Kenobi can contend with him, and Mace Windu stalemated him. Kenobi vs Durge is because of this:

Durge physically pummels Kenobi five months before ROTS.
Durge physically pummels Kenobi five months before ROTS.
Durge physically pummels Anakin five months before ROTS.
Durge physically pummels Anakin five months before ROTS.
Floors and beats Kenobi.
Floors and beats Kenobi.

Durge tags Kit Fisto and gets the better of him.
Durge tags Kit Fisto and gets the better of him.
Once again hurls Kenobi to the floor.
Once again hurls Kenobi to the floor.

Durge punches Grievous and makes the general slide back.
Durge punches Grievous and makes the general slide back.
Manhandles Kit Fisto and Plo Koon.
Manhandles Kit Fisto and Plo Koon.

and a lot of people miss that.

Really? I think most people on the Vine acknowledge it, or at least say that TPM Maul is still superior to TPM Kenobi by a big margin. Casuals, however, think Maul is a little wimp that is no match for noob Jedi Knight level characters.

I read most of the comments yesterday

On the whole thread? What did you think of that?

That or they come up with reasons why it doesn't count.

Yup. If there isn't one, perhaps I'm going to make a blog carefully explaining what happened in that fight-

Oh, yeah, he definitely was epically messing with Maul's head.

True, the poor thing was being mentally abused.

wait, maybe it is Lockdown.

Isn't Lockdown pre-TPM?

The issue is that in DP, Sidious lies to Plagueis about Maul.

Oh, OK.

Some people seem to think that being called an instrument means that Maul was of little value.

Yup. But Sidious sees his apprentices like that. He sees Maul as an instrument, Dooku a proton torpedo/slave, Vader a masterpiece/monster/creation.

BTW, just to add this tidbit, it is in the novel TWoDM, where Sidious says that he is "prepared to lose what I most value" when talking about sending Maul to his final test to become his apprentice.

Sidious really doesn't value anything because he's an "evil" psychopath. But yeah, that proves Maul is worth something to Sidious.

I don't think so.

How? Maul has excellent feats in sabers. Not in Force, but Nihilus/Revan/Vitiate are below Maul as duelists.

People discuss feats that are epic, and you can't really come back at them with comparable feats.

For Force- and Force power is not everything.

The book Darth Maul: Sith Apprentice. It's about TPM Maul, and in it, it says that Maul's master, Sidious, "is the most powerful Sith Master who has ever lived."

I know that, but I'm talking about Maul and his ability to conjure Force Lightning. You said that one source claimed Maul was a user of Force Lightning as of TPM, and I want to know the source.

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@thesithmaster

I am not doing well with expressing myself, or I think most likely, comprehending what others are saying. For whatever reason, I thought you were talking about TPM Maul and TPM Kenobi' gaps being closer as compared to TCW Maul and Kenobi - or later versions of either one. Realizing my stupidity led me stray, I'd now like to change my answer to "I agree with you."

As to Maul's feats, I discuss SW on other sites/ boards. Most other groups are full of people who don't. This site in the past was rather harsh on Maul, but I think that i_like_swords, yousufkhan1212, erkan12, and a couple others helped change that perception.

I have not as of yet completed that thread. I will let you know when I finish it.

As to the SWT #9, Resurrection, I wrote about it elsewhere. I'd like to see what you have to say and then compare notes.

Correct. Lockdown is roughly a year before TPM.

I don't think that Sidious cares about Maul. I think that Sidious values him as his potential replacement and as having worth because he has invested a lot in Maul. That said, in the novel, Darth Plagueis, Plagueis is looking over at Sidious and Maul covertly watching them on the balcony in Coruscant just before Maul leaves to go to Tatooine. He thinks this to himself:

Sidious had formed an almost filial bond with Maul. Attached to the present, he failed to grasp the truth: that this was the last time he and his apprentice might see each other in the flesh.

I would say that, most likely, Maul is the closest any person came to being cared for by Sidious, but I don't think that means much in Sidious' case because there is no love to be found in the heart of Darkness personified.

It was really more about Force power feats that I was talking about.

Some people focus on Force power - when it's more convenient for them. lol

Sorry for my other misunderstanding in regards to his lightning. It's in The Phantom Menace video game.

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@redheathen said:

I am not doing well with expressing myself, or I think most likely, comprehending what others are saying.

No problem, it really isn't causing any trouble (at least for me).

This site in the past was rather harsh on Maul,

And that is once again becoming a reality, IMO, since you-know-who and someone else arrived.

but I think that i_like_swords, yousufkhan1212, erkan12,

These three are Maul supporters and good debaters, especially ILS, and while 2/1 year(s) ago the Vine was getting better on the overall judgement on Maul, it's changing, especially in, say, Maul vs Dooku: 2/1 years ago, or even 3/4, Dooku>Maul was a controversial and contested opinion; now, everyone is saying that Dooku doesn't have that much of a hard time with Maul.

and a couple others helped change that perception.

That's slipping now- especially with the growing Kenobi wank- but I'm trying to make amends to that.

As to the SWT #9, Resurrection, I wrote about it elsewhere.

OK. Did anyone on that place agree with you, or were all of them blind casuals that think Windu>Sidious, Windu>Yoda, Dooku/Vader>>>Maul, TPM Kenobi>Maul, and ROTS Kenobi>ROTS Vader?

I'd like to see what you have to say and then compare notes.

Sure. I'll probably have it done during the weekend.

I don't think that Sidious cares about Maul.

He doesn't care for anyone: with an exception. Himself.

I would say that, most likely, Maul is the closest any person came to being cared for by Sidious,

Yeah, but maybe Anakin surpassed him. NOT Vader; Anakin, or Pre-Suit Vader..Sidious saw Vader as an epic fail after Mustafar.

but I don't think that means much in Sidious' case

While Sidious really didn't care about Maul, Sidious nearly forming "a fillial bond" with Maul says a lot in regards to Maul's value for Sidious- a very cold person who sees nearly everyone, even Plagueis, as expendable tools.

Sorry for my other misunderstanding in regards to his lightning.

Again, no problem.

It's in The Phantom Menace video game.

OK, but videogames are somewhat unreliable when it comes to Lightning (mainly gameplay), given that in Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy, in the Movie Duels mod, ANYONE who uses the Dark Side (Vader, Knightfall Anakin, Maul, Ventress) is capable of using Lightning. Was it in a cutscene or game guide?

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1) That's slipping now- especially with the growing Kenobi wank- but I'm trying to make amends to that.

It's good you're here because ILS is gone, maybe for good, and Yousufkhan is on a self-inflicted 2 month ban so he can get some studying done.

2) OK. Did anyone on that place agree with you, or were all of them blind casuals that think Windu>Sidious, Windu>Yoda, Dooku/Vader>>>Maul, TPM Kenobi>Maul, and ROTS Kenobi>ROTS Vader?

Most people did not agree with me for various reasons such as "that's not the real Maul". I don't remember what other characters they favored.

3) He doesn't care for anyone: with an exception. Himself.

For whatever reason, I usually make statements that begin with "I think..." instead of just flat out saying what I want to get across. I know Sidious doesn't care about anybody else. lol I need to stop doing that, but I've been saying that for a long time.

4) Yeah, but maybe Anakin surpassed him. NOT Vader; Anakin, or Pre-Suit Vader..Sidious saw Vader as an epic fail after Mustafar.

Totally agree with you. I was thinking throught TPM and Dooku, and yeah, Sidious pretty much despised Vader after that. The mutual animosity between them led to some great dialogue between the over the years in various publications.

5) While Sidious really didn't care about Maul, Sidious nearly forming "a fillial bond" with Maul says a lot in regards to Maul's value for Sidious- a very cold person who sees nearly everyone, even Plagueis, as expendable tools.

I thought so.

6) OK, but videogames are somewhat unreliable when it comes to Lightning (mainly gameplay), given that in Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy, in the Movie Duels mod, ANYONE who uses the Dark Side (Vader, Knightfall Anakin, Maul, Ventress) is capable of using Lightning. Was it in a cutscene or game guide?

I have no idea if it is in a cut scene or a game guide. I've searched for those and can find nothing unless I buy it, which I'm not going to do. You made a point about certain games having any DS'er using lightning, but the ability to use lightning by most DS users (or any Sith, maybe) is discussed in a reference book. I took that into consideration as well as there is nothing to suggest that Maul doesn't have the capability to use it and thought that there is nothing about him using it in the game that can contradict canon (old or new), so ... idk.

I spent a long time searching for official cutscenes and official game guides available online and am a bit done with the topic for now. I need to reply to richard96 but will get to it later. When I do, if there is anything else you want to say about this, then I'll respond when I get back.

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@redheathen said:

It's good you're here because ILS is gone,

ILS is gone mainly from supporting Maul- but he's still on the Vine, right? Or has he left the Vine itself?

and Yousufkhan is on a self-inflicted 2 month ban so he can get some studying done.

Yeah, Yousuf is temporarily banned... but are you sure it's from studying? I really hope it is, given what I've read...

Most people did not agree with me for various reasons such as "that's not the real Maul".

Yeah, people use that- but it was obviously TPM Maul, but it just didn't make sense putting him outright as the real Maul, because it would make no sense in a storyline.

I don't remember what other characters they favored.

If they're casuals, prolly what I said.

but the ability to use lightning by most DS users (or any Sith, maybe) is discussed in a reference book.

Well, there have been many examples of Dark Siders that have never shown the ability to use Lightning: Darth Vader, Savage Opress, Asajj Ventress, Sora Bulq, and some more. Mainly people in the CW/TPM era, because in TOR/KOTOR days, Sith focused more on esoteric powers than dueling, but in the CW era Darksiders (and Jedi) focused more on dueling.

as there is nothing to suggest that Maul doesn't have the capability to use it

Maybe the fact he never used it, perhaps... but yeah, that doesn't really contradict anything, given that it really wouldn't be in character for Maul to use Lightning. It's actually probable or really possible that Rebels Maul knows Lightning, given his studies of the Sith holocrons on Malachor.

I need to reply to richard96

OK. BTW, I'm also debating him on the Maul vs Dooku thread. You can probably guess what he's saying.

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#46  Edited By Kilius

Hard to say. If Maul can legitimately break through Kenobi's Force shield then it's his in the bag at round 5. That said I'm not sure he can.

For one Kenobi was pre prime in all the previous instances. In his prime he deflected Force pushes from KF Vader.

Two Force shields don't seem to be up all the time in TCW or even the Prequel Films unlike other EU content. Many times when Anakin and Ventress duel they often score Force pushes, but in the same duels they've shown they can blunt it if they put up their arms with an active defense. In all the times Maul's tk'ed Kenobi he's never had his arms up in the standard defensive posture. In all the times Kenobi does put his arms up, like on Obi Diah against Dooku, he blunts it just fine. It seems to me anyone can be tk'ed as long as one can chain an attack through ones guard. Maul himself Force gripped Sidious in a deleted scene. I'm sure no one is going to argue Maul is more powerful than Sidious. He isn't he just managed to chain a Force grip when Sidious was on the offense with Lighting and unable to put up a shield.

Maul isn't breaching ROTS Kenobi's Force barrier if we're going by Bane Trilogy mechanics. He either splits or falls at 5.

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Stops at 5/6.

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He stops at 5.

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Might stop at 5. Definitely stops at 6.