Smaug the dragon vs Balrog

@daytondude: hello david

Smaug.

Movie: Smaug in a stomp. Quiet possibly literally.

Novel: Harder. Balrogs were Melkor's go to monster in the earlier wars, but near the end it was all about the Dragons (lol at the guy earlier who said it wasn't cool to use Ancalagon the Black to 'scale' down to a normal dragon, yet it was totes cool to use Gothmog to scale down to Durin's Bane). One needs to remember that Dragon Fire is one of the only things that can destroy rings of power, so it is.. unknown how the Balrog would react to it because Dragon Fire is many things, mere fire, it is not.

Could really go either way.

The balrog is more powerful than a normal dragon please read the books balrogs are on a whole different level than smaug they are morgoths servants and more powerful than smaug

@blackpantherisboss: Balrogs were powerful creatures. They were amongst the most trusted and oldest servants of Morgoth, and it was said that, of Morgoth's servants, only winged Fire-drakes were more terrible to battle. Source : http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Balrog

Smaug by movie feats and statements.

Balrog by book feats and statements.

Gonna say a Balrog. Smaug was weak by dragon standards, only hyped by the fact he was a dying breed and had stolen treasure from the greatest dwarf kingdom to exist. A Balrog was a powerhouse and the forces of old were much stronger than the forces of the third age. I'd wager if Smaug was even around during that time he was fodder compared to the rest both in size and skill.

@metaljimmor: If we were talking about a first age dragon your argument would make sense but we're talking about smaug who got killed by an ordinary man it didn't even take an thirds age elf! whereas gandalf the 2nd most powerful of the istari at the time barely managed to kill durins bane and even the still died. Plus smaugs usual killing method is to burn enemies to a crisp but balrog is already made of fire and shadow and if you read the book you would know that when gandalf tried to shut the door with a shutting spell the balrogs counter spell was so terrible it destroyed the door and blastred back gandalf so hypothetically the balrog could also just put a spell on smaug and then finish him with his sword wheras all smaug can really do in this fight is use his claws and teeth.

Gandalf certainly couldn't fare against Smaug in a 1 on 1.

@darthtyrannus:

Jeeze man, that post is two years old. Way to be a necromancer! Wait... ARE YOU SAURON IN DISGUISE?

Anyway, we don't actually know how old Smaug is. We don't even know if dragons can breed naturally without Morgoth's hand (gross), which would imply Smaug is a leftover from the First Age just like Durin's Bane is. Additionally, Smaug losing to a single man was a stroke of plot. Smaug has a legit feat of soloing an entire dwarven kingdom by literally walking into it and sitting on their gold. Entire dwarven armies couldn't stop Smaug, and yet a lone archer could? Pure luck. And this was BEFORE he started bedazzling her underside to provide additional protection.

Blowing up a door is not even close to the same thing as binding a massive dragon in place. Smaug is much larger than Durin's Bane and likely much stronger, so his physical attacks will be just as deadly. Meanwhile the balrog will do what? Burn Smaug with his flaming whip and sword? Both of these creatures attack mainly with fire and are in turn immune to fire. The difference is one has a clear advantage in a grapple.

Being the second strongest of three active Istari isn't that impressive. Especially when there's also Sauron, Lady Galadriel, and possibly Elrond still above him back when he was Grey. So fifth strongest. If we don't count the Witch King as he wasn't that strong at the time. Plus Glorfindel, though he doesn't have many feats. And the crazy part? Of all these characters I've mentioned that are arguably above Gandalf the Grey, only TWO could reasonably replicate Smaug's "I will sit upon this golden throne!" feat. Sauron and Lady Galadriel. No one else could reasonably take out an entire dwarven kingdom in direct combat. Of course Durin's Bane destroyed a dwarven kingdom too, but it was due to the dwarves not having any weapons that could harm it. Smaug however IS vulnerable to their weapons and was still able to effortlessly solo their army like they were a bunch of toy soldiers, which speaks volumes about how powerful Smaug was.

There's also the fact that Gandalf was willing to fight Durin's Bane at all, where as he was very evasive about the idea of trying to take on Smaug.

Also, for the record. There was a First Age Elf the next kingdom over who desperately wanted some baubles Smaug had, yet he was too terrified of the dragon to make a move. First Age Elves are nothing to scoff at, and have been proven able to fight balrogs evenly in the past.

Among the most powerful and wisest of Middle Earth's inhabitants Dragon's seem to hold much greater status than Balrog's, notably Durin's Bane. I don't believe there is a single being in the 3rd age that would consider, or is indeed capable off, taking on a Smaug. In contrast to this Gandalf was willing and capable of defeating/stalemating Durin's Bane. The Balrog's are certainly powerful, but a Dragon (even one such as Smaug, who despite being among the weakest is a Fire Drake nonetheless) is superior.

@metaljimmor: @giliad_:No one in the 3rd age can beat smaug?? don't pull crap out of your A$$ a 3rd age human with a fancy arrow killed smaug. And hypothetically Gandalf or Saruman beat smaug and definitely Sauron. Sorry to tell you but Morgoth could only mutilate creatures already created not make new ones so smaug is definitely not a leftover living barbecue from the 3rd age. plus if I was Sauron I would've killed Peter Jackson for his hobbit heresy lol but presently the only dead thing I can bring up is a computer and thats only if I have a charger.

@metaljimmor: I missed a few points but now I will cover them: 1 the isatri were specifically FORBIDDEN to fight Sauron by matching power and were made weaker by wearing human bodies

2 Have you read the hobbit? in the Hobbit book there were no baubles Thranduil wanted and the reason why he locked them up goes far back to when dwarves killed his father long ago (won't get into the details)

3 First age elves were far more powerful because they were unburdened by grief or toil and fire burned within their souls or something like that ( don't feel like looking up real quote in my copy of the silmarillion) so even if thranduil was a 1st age elf he still wasn't as powerful as he used to be and as above there were no baubles and he mistrusted and disliked dwarves he wanted so why would he star a war?

4 All maiar by nature are more powerful than any elf and why is everyone wanting galadriels power!! in the book it just said "They put forth their strength, and they assailed Dol Guldur, and drove Sauron from his hold" NOTHING about that says galadriel did a sh!$ above anyone else! plus that whole fight was a feint foremost by Sauron because in the book it says "... their stroke was too late. For the Dark Lord had foreseen it, and he had long prepared all his movements; and the Úlairi, his Nine Servants, had gone before him to make ready for his coming. Therefore his flight was but a feint ..." secondly by saruman because "The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River " and also it is likely that the istari tried to use as little power as possible since they didn't want sauron to find out they were maia and not just humans who know magic like say the witch king had been. and in addition it is likely that elrond and galadriel would have brought an army with them and champions such as glorfindel because sauron was a coward in combat as shown in the first age and probably also had an army with him.

5. the simple fact that he showed off his armor, didn't notice a chink in it, and got killed by a mortal man shows that he's weak by dragon standards, stupid, and arrogant.

6. Why shouldn't during bane be able at least hurt smaug with spells? it was said in the book that "the counter spell was terrible it blew the door to pieces and flung me back" so this means he overpowered Gandalf's spell to such a degree that it shattered the door and flung gandalf back and in addition the Chamber of Mazarbul caved in afterwards so binding a small 15-20 meter dragon shouldn't be impossible

Balrog. Smaug was not a particularly powerful dragon by any means.

@darthtyrannus:

1. They were. And those human bodies are exactly why Gandalf was hesitant to fight a dragon. Powerful as he is, his body can be destroyed like any other.

2. I have. Several times. You're right though, he didn't want baubles in the book. It's hard to remember certain minor elements when you've seen both the movies and read the books several times. Things start to bleed together.

3. Not as powerful as he used to be, but still a fair bit stronger than, say, Legolas.

4. This simply isn't true. Balrogs are corrupted maiar, and we have plenty of cases where First Age Elves were able to fight them one on one and win. This indicates roughly equal potential strength. Gothmog, the most powerful of balrogs, was killed in single combat by an elf named Ecthelion because he got knocked into a fountain.That same Gothmog was also unable to best Fingon without a second balrog attacking the elf from behind. Elrond and Galadriel were also brought with the Istari to face Sauron for a reason. All evidence suggests that the power of a Fist Age Elf is on par with a Maiar in their restricted, mortal forms.

5.The thing is, Glaurung was ALSO killed by a lone human who found his weakspot. That didn't stop Glaurung from slaughtering huge swaths of First Age Elves with his dragon fire and leading his host in the destruction of Nargothrond. And Glaurung wasn't even capable of flight. The manner of a dragon's death holds no distinction over how powerful they are. Tolkien LOVED great and powerful foes to be brought down by weaker individuals due to a stroke of luck or destiny.

6. Unfortunately Durin's Bane didn't show many spells at all. None that he used suggested he was able to defeat a massive, fire resistant dragon with magic alone. Additionally, destroying a door and knocking an old man back does not mean he can bind a creature that weighs hundreds of tons. Gandalf is a powerful magic user, but his body isn't any harder to launch than a normal man's body. He still weighs as much as a normal man. In terms of physical strength I don't think anyone can deny that Smaug massively out-classes any human form, Istari or otherwise.

At first I thought you were talking about street fighter balrog for a moment.

Balrog, cause Balrogs are strong enough to defeat Ungoliant.

depends on the balrog

@metaljimmor: Do we have to go over this again *sigh*.

1. smaug was killed by bard but glarung was killed by the son of the mightiest human warrior ever.

2. since when does being a fair bit stronger than legolas qualify an elf to be maiar level?

3. Firt age elves are far more powerful, wheras 3rd age elves ar roughly equal to 1-3 orcs (standard soldiers only) but listen to what it says in The Silmarillion about first age elves "But the host of Morgoth, arosed by the tumult of Lammoth and the light of the burning at Losgar, came through the passes of Ered Wethrin, the Mountains of Shadow, and assailed Feanor on a sudden, before his camp was full-wrought or put in defence; and there on the grey fields of Mothrim was fought the second battle in the Wars of Beleriand. Dagor-nuin-Giliath it is named, the Battle -under-Stars, for the moon had not yet risen; and it is renowned in song, The Noldor, Outnumbered and taken unawares, were yet swiftly victrious; for the light of Aman was not yet dimmed in their eyes, and they were strong and swift, and deadly in anger, and their swords were long and terrible. The orcs fled before them, and they were driven forth from Mithrim with great slaughter, ...

this implies firstly that an army of orcs was way out of leage woth a small group of elves (because on their way to middle earth Ulmo sank some ships and most of their comrades they abandoned afterwards with Fingolfin) who were outnumbered and caught unawares! Secondly it states were yet swiftly victrious; for the light of Aman was not yet dimmed in their eyes,that implies that as time went on the light dimmed and they grew weaker so comparing Fingon to Galadriel or Elrond is ridiculous as a 1st age hero could probably cut down at least 3 elven 3rd age champions with ease.

4. As I said the Maiar were prohibited from using brute force so if Gandalf just goes full on smaug is gonna be a pile of confetti by the time he's done

%. I love how you mention that glarung couldn't kill an elf lord but then forget that Ancalagon was killed by a Half Elf.

I think Smaug

@darthtyrannus:

1. It hardly matters. Glaurung is still far more powerful than Turin as we saw the first time they met. The dragon only lost because he was stabbed in the stomach by an enemy that was hiding from him, just like Smaug was killed by a cheap shot to a weak point in his armor. Tolkien LOVES to have powerful foes bested by the underdog, but that doesn't mean said powerful foe wasn't powerful. If Smaug could be downed by any ol' archer then there's no way he would've been able to take over Erebor.

2. I never said he was as strong as a Maiar just because he was stronger than Legolas. I said that First Age elves, although diminished, are still considerably more powerful than any Third Age elf, so they clearly haven't lost THAT much of their power. And even if they did, the most powerful First Age elves were a fair bit above Maiar to begin with, as demonstrated by Gothmog needing a second balrog to best Fingon, and Fingolfin who was able to duel Morgoth, a former Valar, in single combat and injure him.

3. Yes, they are diminished from back during the First Age, but we don't know to what degree and evidence suggests it isn't by such a huge margin. Galadriel and Elrond were still powerful enough to be useful to Saruman and Gandalf the Grey in fighting Sauron. Gil-Galad, an elf lord of the First Age, was able to defeat Sauron with the aid of Elendil, a Numenorean human (though they died in the duel).

But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.

From the Silmarillion. Had to hunt down the quote online since I don't have my copy with me.

I think we can both agree that Sauron with the One Ring is significantly stronger than Gandalf the Grey in his restricted form. This is a clear demonstration that First Age elves are still strong enough to be ranked up there with Maiar even near the end of the Second Age/beginning of the Third Age.

4. They were. But we aren't discussing Maiar in their true, divine forms. Gandalf the GREY, stuck in a mortal body and restricted by Eru Illuvatar, was able to defeat Durin's Bane in a stalemate but was not willing to fight Smaug. This indicates that Gandalf himself viewed Smaug as too great a risk to try and fight directly. Granted you could argue his hand was forced and that he wouldn't have fought Durin's Bane willingly either, but that simply indicates the two are potentially equal threats to him. The difference being Smaug is still a massive, armored, flying lizard that is much bigger than a balrog, and that the balrog has shown no attacks that seem capable of injuring a dragon.

5. I never said Glaurung couldn't kill an elf lord. I don't know where you got that. Funny thing is bringing up Ancalagon's death supports what I'm saying even further. The dragons in Tolkien's mythology are capable of slaughtering entire armies, be it dwarves, men, or First Age elves, and their dragon fire is among the most potent weapons in Middle Earth. Gandalf himself suggested Smaug could potentially have destroyed the One Ring with his fire. And yet at the end of the day Samug got killed by a lone archer named Bard, and Ancalagon the Black was taken out by a half-elf with a magic boat despite being the size of entire mountain ranges and scaring off the Valar's host.

My entire point is that you shouldn't judge Tolkien's characters by how they died. Rather you should judge them by how threatening they were when alive.

Show version I'll give it to Smaug .

Is this the Moria Balrog? If it is, I think he takes it by a landslide. He has better, MUCH better feats then Smaug. Smaug single handedly destroyed and took over a single dwarf city - the Erebor. Balrog took over and destroyed an entire COUNTRY, the dwarf kingdom of Moria. Not only is Moria 100 times as big as Erebor and had 100 times more dwarves to defend it, it is also much easier to defend against Balrog with a labyrinth of endless small tunnels, not to mention dwarves who lived there were armed head to toe in mithril gear and weapons, making them probably one of the most dangerous and unbeatable army of their time. And Balrog destroyed and banished them all. Not only that, but then he has a duel against Gandalf and he actually draws with him, killing him and dying himself despite Gandalf being the same rank spirit (maiar) but with a lot more experience and feats, and buffed with stuff like elven ring of power, the wizard wand and Glamdring (all very powerful artifacts). Balrog on top of all that has advantage in abilities. He has all the abilities of a dragon (pyrokinesis, flight, giant size, strength, invulnerability and all) but he also can use powerful magic. His first battle against Gandalf at the Gates prove that best, when Balrog encountered Gates sealed by Gandalfs spell, he countered it with his own magic and the door broke. Great Dragons also used magic in silmarillion, but we haven't seen Smaug do anything of sort so it's impossible to tell if he can also use magic. Smaug can't hold the candle to this feats. He died from an arrow of a human archer and killed nobody but a bunch of nameless dwarves. If it was any random Balrog from Silmarillion Smaug would've won with his eyes closed. But against Balrog from Moria? Nah... not really. Not even close.

Moria Balrog wins.

The balrog....smaug is more powerful than the moria balrog....but it seems to me there r checks and balances here, where neither could really hurt each other with fire, but the balrog being maiar, couldn't be hurt By a mere human or creature....if I m wrong, than smaug destroys or sauron breaks up the fight reminding they r all on melkor's side

A balrog is a Maia, a godly being. It doesn't die when you kill its body. A dragon dies when its body is slain. Clearly, without a doubt a balrog would win.

Dragons always seemed stronger than Balrogs imo.

Durins Bane would win.

Smaug.

Smaug low diff.

Smaug wins.

Balrogs herded dragons like cattle. Smaug isn’t even considered to be in the same league as the dragons of old back in the day. Clear as day many morons here do not read or know LOTR.

Depends on the location.

Smaug could easily rush the Balrog from above, with his diamond protected belly, and smash in to his chest with his spear claws. The Dragon would take advantage of this position, and the severely wounded Valaraukar would be under his dragon-spell moments later.

Game over.

What can Smaug really do? Toast him to death? I doubt it.

Bump, Smaug

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/gandalf-vs-smaug-1680265/

Balrog. Smaug gets killed by an arrow

@bowlt_swagg_320: because he was given inside information that Smaug had1 scale on his underbelly that was not there, and therefore was able to snipe him. During bane lost to Gandalf, who can't do squat vs smaug. Balrogs were literally matched 1 on 1 by ELVES in the first age , some elves even took on/killed multiple balrogs, in actual combat, not by sniping with an arrow. Without inside info on sniping Smaug' weak spot, i don't see anyone in the third age except sauron defeating smaug, like literally what are they gonna do? Swords, spears arrows etc don't work on him, and no one around shows magic even remotely powerful enough to defeat harm smaug. The size difference is quite a lot too. Below are photos of Gandalf compared to Durin's Bane. Durin's Bane is like 3-4x his size, whereas Gandalf is likely not even the size of Smaug's head. My points are for balrogs and dragons in general. Balrogs aren't really a match for dragons flying dragons like smaug except for maybe Gothmog.

Balrog

Balrog. Smaug got outsmarted by a hobbit and killed by a human, that's a pretty terrible record.

@deactivated-5b2e798651249: He is killed by Bard with an elongated iron arrow!?

People are comparing Smaug to other dragons like Glaurung? Glaurung was ten times larger than Smaug.

Balrog stomps. In the silmarillion they are depicted as very fast. Marching across much of Arda to save Morgoth.