Skywalker Family vs ROTS Kenobi, Prime Ahsoka, and Mace Windu

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nassergrant19

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(This is Knightfall Anakin)

Round 1: They start 30 ft apart in the Jedi Temple. (In character)

(Sabers and Force)

Round 2: They start 30 ft apart on Mandalore. (Bloodlusted)

(Sabers and Force)

Round 3: They start up close in a Corosaunt city alley way.

(H2H)

Bonus Round: Who is the most talented Jedi here? and who’s your favorite?

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deactivated-612156a4d7eca

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Anakin is the only one on the team that really has proper scaling to the other characters.

I'd rate KFV at about Mace Windu level or a little higher, and powerful enough to beat Obi Wan if its on less risky terrain.

I guess if Luke is supposed to be well beyond his ROTJ levels and above Vader at this point, he'd be enough to tilt things in team 1s favor.

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Bayman007

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Team 2.

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Drax5343

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@mysterymeat: I doubt Luke ever surpassed Vader. An old Vader wouldn’t lose to a fodder like Kylo Ren.

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NotTheGodMadara

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#5  Edited By NotTheGodMadara

Team 1 Stomps KnightFall Anakin can solo tho

GM Luke>>Knightfall Vader>>>>Base Mace

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DarthAdi

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Drax5343

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@darthadi: Didn’t Kylo beat him when he tried to kill him in his room in the flashback ?

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nassergrant19

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#8  Edited By nassergrant19

@drax5343: The canon 2015 comic confirms he was equal to Prime Vader in ROTJ. Even stating Luke held back a little while Vader was at full power.

Considering he was equal to Vader in ROTJ and he had 5 whole years of training, he’s definitely above Vader.

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DarthAdi

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#9  Edited By DarthAdi

@nassergrant19: That comic is not canon. Just a reprint of a legends comic.

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nassergrant19

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#10  Edited By nassergrant19

@darthadi: It came out in 2015 so it’s canon. All comics before 2014 are non-canon. Plus wikipedia says any adaptations of the original films are considered canon. This was literally an adaptation of the movie word for word. Right before it was released in 2015 it even said fans can rewatch the original movie in comic form. So yes it’s canon.

Luke was equal to a Prime Vader. Even the Star Wars wiki states they were even. Multiple sources confirm they were equal and it even fits the script of the fight.

So since he was equal to him during ROTJ, after 5 years of training he’d obviously be stronger than Vader.

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DarthAdi

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#12  Edited By DarthAdi

@nassergrant19: Luke might be his equal, but not because of the comic.

There are many legends comics/novels published after 2014 which are not canon. Just reprints.

Wikipedia is not the most reliable source and from what I know the only things considered canon from the old legends adaptations are the events themselves (and only if they don't contradict the movie). The narration itself is canon only to the legends continuity.

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nassergrant19

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#13  Edited By nassergrant19

@darthadi: The narration is literally what happened in the movie.

They stalemated in the saber duel and Luke tags him with a powerful kick. Literally sending him down a flight of stairs. Then Luke proceeds to hold back after that and deactivates his saber. Vader takes that moment to kill Luke and Luke blocks just in time. Had he not blocked, he would’ve lost his head. Then Luke matches Vader’s strength in blade lock equally and dodges his strikes while outmaneuvering him. It‘s obvious he was his equal.

That’s why with force rage he straight up beats him. If they were equal during the duel and Luke gets a rage amp it’s obvious he’d be stronger than Vader. If Ahsoka or Obi-Wan had force rage they wouldn’t be able to replicate what Luke did.

Yoda and Obi-Wan were confident Luke could beat Vader alone for a reason. That’s also why Sidious wanted him so badly.

Vader: “You are powerful as the emperor has forseen.”

Even the SW Lightsaber duels book says Luke and Vader were tied. As a matter of fact the ROTJ script said Luke had the slight advantage.

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DarthAdi

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#14  Edited By DarthAdi

@nassergrant19: Luke vs Vader is another discussion I don't want to get into right now. As I said he might be his equal, but if he is it's not because of the comic.

No, the only canon parts are what is seen/heard in the movie itself. So things like Luke and Vader fighting or their lines of dialogue. The narration is comic specific and can't be seen/heard in the movie itself so it's not canon even if you or I think it fits the narrative.

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nassergrant19

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#15  Edited By nassergrant19

@darthadi: I disagree with that because it’s literally stating what was happening in the movie. I’ll squash that point since we don’t agree on the comic entirely.

However the movie script is canon, and it says Luke was the one who overpowered Vader and had a slight advantage over him.

So it’s pretty clear and canon he was his equal.

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DarthAdi

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SheevSmacker

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vader solos

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Drax5343

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Team 2 beats the 2 fodder and one decent fighter.

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nassergrant19

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#19  Edited By nassergrant19

@drax5343: 2 fodder? what are you talking about? Leia might not be too strong but Luke was equal to a prime Vader. He’s probably the strongest Jedi in this fight. How is that fodder lol?

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nassergrant19

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Team 1 Stomps KnightFall Anakin can solo tho

GM Luke>>Knightfall Vader>>>>Base Mace

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Drax5343

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@nassergrant19: Luke’s power level is dubious at best. His feats are underwhelming.

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nassergrant19

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#22  Edited By nassergrant19

@drax5343: He stalemated Prime Vader and even had the slight advantage over him because of superior agility and speed. That’s why Sidious wanted him so badly. No one else is replicating that feat except MAYBE Windu.

He’s arguably the strongest Jedi here.

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Drax5343

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@nassergrant19: There were lots of extenuating circumstances in that fight. And that is the only impressive feat he has to his name.

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nassergrant19

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#24  Edited By nassergrant19

@drax5343: The circumstances was Luke held back a little because he didn’t wanna hurt his father, other than that he matched Vader’s raw strength in bladelock, was able to kick him down a flight of stairs and outmaneuver him with superior speed/agility.

The ROTJ script even stated Luke had a slight advantage over Vader.

He clearly stalemated Vader and with a rage amp he straight up beats him. So yeah Luke is arguably the strongest Jedi here.

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Drax5343

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#25  Edited By Drax5343

@nassergrant19: Vader was hindered and you are correct in that he had a rage amp.

Honestly the whole fight was PIS

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nassergrant19

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@drax5343: There are no canon sources that say Vader was hindered. In fact the script states he was as strong as ever. Luke was the one who was holding back. Vader even tries to kill him when Luke decides to hold back.

Yeah if Obi-Wan or Ahsoka had a rage amp they would’nt be able to beat Vader. If Vader and Luke are tied normally, it makes sense with a rage amp Luke would be above Vader.

Either way Luke stalemated a prime full power Vader. It’s not PIS lol, it’s the story of the original trilogy.

The script confirms Luke had an advantage over Vader in the fight as well.

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Drax5343

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@nassergrant19: It is the story yes. That’s what I’m saying. It was PIS. Completely goes against logic and his feats before or after.

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nassergrant19

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#28  Edited By nassergrant19

@drax5343: Well whether you like it or not he still tied with a Prime Vader. That’s why he’s so hyped on threads. Especially after the Mandalorian season 2.

Luke progressed quickly because he was a prodigy and could easily adapt in tough situations. In their first fight Luke literally copied Vader’s fighting style during their battle. In their last battle Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Sidious knew Luke could match Vader evenly. That’s why multiple sources confirm them equal and that’s why the script confirmed Luke had the advantage.

Whether you think it’s PIS or not, which is really just your opinion, Luke is canonically equal with a Prime Vader and by the time of the Mandalorian completely superior.

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Drax5343

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@nassergrant19: He’s hyped in threads as you said because Mandalorian Season 2 came out and he looked cool. The same reason people hype Wonder Woman because 1984 just came out and and Current Luffy because 1000 came out. It’s a mental heuristic called the recency affect.

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nassergrant19

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#30  Edited By nassergrant19

@drax5343: Whoa I’m anime only for One Piece. Can you please edit your One Piece comment and not spoil it for me. Like delete your statement about the One Piece manga.

Anyways my point still stands, Luke was equal with a prime Vader.

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Drax5343

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#31  Edited By Drax5343

@nassergrant19: And I say the fight was PIS.

Considering Luke loses to a Padawan Kylo Ren who later goes on to lose to Chewbacca.

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nassergrant19

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#32  Edited By nassergrant19

@drax5343: he didn’t lose to kylo lol. Where did you here that?

Either way he tied with Vader. That’s a canonical fact.

Also can you please delete your One Piece spoiler or at least tag it.

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Drax5343

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nassergrant19

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@drax5343: He didn’t lose or even fight him. That never happened. Your the first one to ever suggest this. In the flashback he blocked a blow, that’s it. Then Kylo ran off and killed his students later on.

So yeah Luke is equal to prime Vader.

Hey idk if your hearing me but can you do me a favor and delete your One Piece spoiler comment. I’m anime only.

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Drax5343

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@nassergrant19: It doesn’t spoil anything.

He blocked the blow and then collapsed the building on him.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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Mace > Anakin

Ahsoka > Luke

Obi Wan > Leia

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nassergrant19

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@drax5343: Luke never lost to Kylo Ren. Not in the flashback or in the present fight timeline. Yes he brought the building down but Luke wasn’t even fighting at that point. He clearly says, “Ben no!” He thought about fighting but never actually went through with it. It’d be idiotic to think Kylo is even close to Luke’s level. Even the force image of out of prime Luke can casually dodge his strongest strikes and clown him.

Anyways my point still stands Luke was equal to Vader.

Also is your One Piece comment, something that was already revealed in the anime? Is that why you said it deos spoil anything? Cause I didn’t look at it.

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Drax5343

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@nassergrant19: You think Kyle beating Luke was PIS. I say Luke beating Vader was the PIS and him losing to Kylo is a more accurate showing.

My One Piece comment doesn’t even say anything.

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nassergrant19

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@drax5343: He didn’t lose to Kylo. He never even fought him. It was a nonexistent fight. Luke had been caught in a misunderstanding and Kylo cheapshotted him while Luke tried to explain he wasn’t gonna hurt him. Kylo isn’t even close to Luke and they never fought. The only time they fought was when Kylo got humiliated by a force image of out of prime Luke.

Luke vs Vader was a canonical fight and it was canonically equal. That’s why he’s probably the strongest Jedi in this fight.

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Drax5343

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@nassergrant19: Again it was PIS.

Luke gets neg diffed by Palps 2 seconds later while Vader tanks his lightning.

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nassergrant19

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#41  Edited By nassergrant19

@drax5343: That’s because Luke didn’t expect to fight him. He literally disarmed himself and stood there without moving.

I’m not arguing who’s more durable. Vader was a massive guy who‘s like 6’5. Luke is tiny and only like 5’8. Of course Vader would be more durable. I’m talking about skill and strength in dueling.

Luke was equal to Vader in their duel. Luke matches Vader in bladlock, kicks him down a flight of stairs and dodges his fastest strikes with grace.

The script even confirms Luke had the advantage over Vader and legitimately overpowered him.

Luke was canonically even with Vader and arguably the strongest Jedi here.

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Grinningf0x

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Luke even as of ROTJ is a peer to Vader

Neither Yoda or Obi-Wan thought Vader could be redeemed and didn’t send Luke there to bring him back . Luke was sent there to kill him by both the man who trained Anakin and beat Vader in Obi-Wan and the Greatest and Wisest Jedi Master to ever live In Yoda . Neither of these guys would ever factor Luke tapping into the DS as a good or necessary thing either .

What does that leave us with then ? That base ROTJ Luke per both Obiwan who has extensive knowledge on Anakin and Vader’s power and Yoda is capable of winning against Vader .

And miss me with the hindered BS because Luke was just as hindered until he snaps and kicks Vader’s ass.

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Grinningf0x

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On Topic Team one wins and it’s not super close

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Grinningf0x

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@emmafrostxmen: No it doesn’t it helps my point. If Ahsoka is capable of fighting on Maul’s level she’s capable of beating him which would make them peers. There are very VERY few perfect equals in regards to every factor of combat in SW but that isn’t a requirement to be on the same level.

My assertion is that when Luke was sent to confront Vader ,PIS or Vader being hindered weren’t factors that the characters consider when the sent him. Same for Ahsoka she was (rightly) estimated to be have what it took to beat Maul without any caveats by Anakin (who trained her) and Obi-Wan ( Maul’s archenemy)and she did proving them right .

Ahsoka is a peer to Maul because even if Maul is “stronger” she’s capable of killing him without any amps and on her own .

Luke is a peer to Vader under the same stipulation

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nassergrant19

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#46  Edited By nassergrant19
@grinningf0x said:

Luke even as of ROTJ is a peer to Vader

Neither Yoda or Obi-Wan thought Vader could be redeemed and didn’t send Luke there to bring him back . Luke was sent there to kill him by both the man who trained Anakin and beat Vader in Obi-Wan and the Greatest and Wisest Jedi Master to ever live In Yoda . Neither of these guys would ever factor Luke tapping into the DS as a good or necessary thing either .

What does that leave us with then ? That base ROTJ Luke per both Obiwan who has extensive knowledge on Anakin and Vader’s power and Yoda is capable of winning against Vader .

And miss me with the hindered BS because Luke was just as hindered until he snaps and kicks Vader’s ass.

Facts bro. That’s literally what happened in the movie. Luke was a prodigy and progressed quickly. Yoda and Obi-Wan knew he could beat Vader and that’s why Sidious wanted him so badly.

Hell, a canon 2016 SW book even confirms this.

"Father and son were now equally strong with the Force, and equally skilled with their lightsabers."

-Jedi vs. Sith (2016)

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deactivated-60ee0713dd622

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Team 1, with Anakin as the mvp.

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Redshift_Bacon

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Probably team 1? By ROTJ, Luke is already Neigh-ROTS Anakin. Not long after ROTJ, Leia bests him in a spar, then he continues to train for years until Mandalorian S2.

This like is close to Prime Luke, so its not unreasonable to place him in the same tier as ROTS Anakin himself. Stack Leia on top of this, who based on her Only showing, would need to be gauged at least AOTC Anakin level to pull that off.

Leia is kind of fodder, but she can at least hold her own. But, if she dies, Team 2 has a bigger problem: Enraged Luke and Enraged KF Vader.

So heres how I see it going:

Round 1: Team 2 holds a narrow advantage until Leia gets injured or incap’d, at which time, Luke becomes Enraged, and his opponent goes down. From there, KF Vader + Prime Luke proceeds to defeat the final 2 remaining.

Round 2: Enraged Skywalker team has no equals here. They clear pretty easily. Only Kenobi is shown to gain a Rage Boost, but its certainly not as good as either of the Skywalkers.

Round 3: Id back Team 2 here. Ahsoka has good H2H feats, Kenobi and Mace are also both competent, although the robotic arms of the Skywalkers might help them there.

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nassergrant19

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@darthadi: Yeah sorry for going off topic but this canon source confirms Luke and Vader were equal as well.

"Father and son were now equally strong with the Force, and equally skilled with their lightsabers."

-Jedi vs. Sith (2016)