Skyfather PYP 2021 RD1: Indominus vs Drax (Open 4 Votes)

When the almighty omnipotent Source (in the form of the Anti-Life Entity) went completely nuts and systematically killed off all the New Gods for Jim Starlin's own twisted pleasure...rather than succumb to his fate, Uxas gave destiny the ultimate middle finger and faced it head-on. He would find the stashed pile of all the dead New God souls and used them to create the soulfire formula.

Often disregarded and underestimated, the soulfire formula gave Uxas enough power to fight toe-to-toe against the nigh-omnipotent Anti-Life Entity and is more than a match for every other character in this tourney and beyond.

According to Uxas himself, every single added New God soul boosts one's power by 10 times. This means 2 added souls would increase one's power by 100 times, 3 added souls would increase one's power by 1,000 times etc...you get the point.

When Uxas faced the Anti-Life Entity, hundreds of thousands of New Gods were already dead but let's simply lowball this to just 100,000. Even then, this number is far too hard for us to comprehend in our minds...not even Google calculator can keep up with it.

So in conclusion, the soulfire formula increased Uxas' power by 1(100,000 zeros) times. Crazy isn't it?

Now even if Uxas was just as powerful as a human fodder, the soulfire formula is still such a ridiculous amp that it negates whatever lack of power he has at his base.

But just to be clear...this is not base Darkseid...

...nor is this base Darkseid...

...but this IS base Darkseid...the true Darkseid

One thing we know is that Darkseid (in a weakened state) was causing multiversal-wide chaos...

...this has been further confirmed to have affected even the Monitor Sphere...

We know during Final Crisis that Darkseid was in a weakened state when Dan Turpin spoke to Batman and revealed he had been wounded in battle by Orion.

this means even a weakened, dying Darkseid is multiversal in power...there's plenty more I can add but I'll show this much for now...

One thing I will be referencing a lot will this DC Map of the Multiverse...the map contains a lot of hidden information most people tend to gloss over.

...the world from which Darkseid resides is within the Godsphere (outside the DC Multiverse), the Godsphere encompasses the DC Multiverse, the Godsphere is encompassed by the Monitor Sphere...I mentioned earlier that Darkseid's dying was affecting the Monitor Sphere btw...

Of course, I can always go into the vast array of abilities Darkseid has but that would take too long...a respect thread for a fatherbox has already been made. I won't go into all the details but to summarize, a fatherbox will provide Darkseid the necessary protection so you can't possibly sneak up on him with an unsuspecting attack he has no answer for...becuz the fatherbox is the answer.

In conclusion, if you do the math, you'd find that this version of Darkseid is probably too much for the tourney and by extension Anti-Spiral. Multiversal while still weakened, boosted by fatherbox and further amped by soulfire formula creates a near nigh-omnipotent being I daresay is stronger than HOTU or Astral Regulator Thanos...yeah I said it.

Remember that I get to choose the battlefield? Well the battlefield I have chosen is within the Omega Sanction...

The Omega Sanction is a series of parallel universes where the trapped individual is in a series of torturous lives that repeats itself endlessly and results in death...it is a reality specifically created by the true Darkseid which he warps to condemn his enemies.

I am not exaggerating when I say "universes" because creating them is nothing but a favorite hobby even for fodder New Gods.

Well, first and foremost, unlike Soulboy, the Anti-Spiral is an actual canon character. The anti-spiral race was a race of extremely advanced, transcendent beings from the early universe. The anti-spiral is the collective consciousness of the anti-spiral race. Their sole mission is to purge the universe of spiral power which they feel will lead to its destruction. Spiral Power is the main energy of the TTGL verse (not unlike Reishi or Chakra or Ki). The Anti-spiral on the other hand draws his power from extremely advanced technology, being the collective consciousness of a hyper-advanced civilisation.

Anti-Spiral was able to beat up this guy-

Yes, those are universes. This large fellow is STTGL. Mr. STTGL contains within himself several super spiral universes. This interview by Gainax clarifies that TTGL has a super spiral universe inside of him- https://web.archive.org/web/20180928165218/https://www.japanator.com/the-secrets-of-gurren-lagann-answered--6714.phtml

STTGL is a super-mech that is made up of several TTGL units.

Now what is a super spiral universe you may ask ? A super spiral universe is an 11-dimensional universe

Gallery

The wiki further clarifies that super spiral universes are 11 dimensional universes- https://gurrenlagann.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Spiral_Space

Anti-spiral defeated and destroyed this mech in a battle of mutiversal proportions. Clobbered an 11-dimensional being. A being who is what Mr. Mkzypztlk is to a normal person... to Mr Mkzyptlk... 3 times over. Now that is an impressive combat feat.

Who cares how many 0s the number of times SF darkseid is stronger than regular darkseid is. It isn't infinity. And Darkseid's opponent is an 11 dimensional being. An 11 dimensional being is infinitely more powerful than a 10D being, who is infinitely more powerful than a 9D being and so on. Darkseid would have to grow several degrees of infinity to challenge the Anti-spiral.

While their raw power is top-notch. Arguably even more impressive is the Anti-Spiral's hax, the advanced technology of the anti-spiral race allows one to warp the fundamental laws if the universe, including probability itself. Think what Toriko characters can do but on a multiversal scale.

I've chosen mind/soul immunity and general hax immunity for my summons. The anti-spiral fights through its summons, the granzebomas, so my character is pretty much immune to all hax, especially soul-based ones. And even worse, the anti-spiral is the collective consciousness of the anti-spiral race so the only way to really kill them is to kill the anti-spiral race. So Darkseid will have to leave the battlefield and look for the race to permanently kill the Anti-spiral. But even that is not all. Since the anti-spiral is not a being but a collective consciousness of a nigh-omniscient race as old as time, i don't think the fancy universe trap wil have much effect on them. In fact, as confirmed in an interview, the only reason we were able to see the anti-spiral in the anime was because it was reality anomaly, under normal circumstances the anti-spiral cannot be contained inside a universe. it exists beyond the multiverse, beyond space and time, it's an 11-dimensional being after all. Containing it in a 4-dimensional universe is folly.

STTGL is ginormous no doubt but you must know that true form darkseid is much bigger...

Yes, those are universes. This large fellow is STTGL. Mr. STTGL contains within himself several super spiral universes. This interview by Gainax clarifies that TTGL has a super spiral universe inside of him- https://web.archive.org/web/20180928165218/https://www.japanator.com/the-secrets-of-gurren-lagann-answered--6714.phtml

STTGL is a super-mech that is made up of several TTGL units.

...his true size is so massive his shadow covers the entire dc multiverse...

this is further solidified by orion who explains regular universes as mere bubbles compared to them

when the old god sivaa tore a hole in reality, it exposed all the universes in the dc multiverse for superman to see and he too saw them as bubbles (this is an insane size difference)

in many ways...I think it's fair to say darkseid dwarfs STTGL in size

Now what is a super spiral universe you may ask ? A super spiral universe is an 11-dimensional universe

The wiki further clarifies that super spiral universes are 11 dimensional universes- https://gurrenlagann.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Spiral_Space

ah yes but so is a regular universe from the dc multiverse. it too contains 11 dimensions.

Anti-spiral defeated and destroyed this mech in a battle of mutiversal proportions. Clobbered an 11-dimensional being. A being who is what Mr. Mkzypztlk is to a normal person... to Mr Mkzyptlk... 3 times over. Now that is an impressive combat feat.

Who cares how many 0s the number of times SF darkseid is stronger than regular darkseid is. It isn't infinity. And Darkseid's opponent is an 11 dimensional being. An 11 dimensional being is infinitely more powerful than a 10D being, who is infinitely more powerful than a 9D being and so on. Darkseid would have to grow several degrees of infinity to challenge the Anti-spiral.

the problem here is that your dimensional tiering/scaling is rather misleading. the 11 dimensions of a super spiral universe you refer to are spatial dimensions not higher dimensions...therefore STTGL and anti-spiral are not as strong as you think they are.

as I've outlined previously, regular dc universes have 11 spatial dimensions too and all godsphere inhabitants (including darkseid) exist beyond them.

And even worse, the anti-spiral is the collective consciousness of the anti-spiral race so the only way to really kill them is to kill the anti-spiral race.

if you want to play it that way...it'll be hard pressed for anti-spiral to kill darkseid because not even the spectre could do it despite channeling the logoz through him. it's been shown several times, no matter what you do to destroy the host body, the spirit of the true darkseid lives on due to his platonic nature

So Darkseid will have to leave the battlefield and look for the race to permanently kill the Anti-spiral. But even that is not all. Since the anti-spiral is not a being but a collective consciousness of a nigh-omniscient race as old as time, i don't think the fancy universe trap wil have much effect on them.

it's not really a universe trap but more so a reality that darkseid himself warps. think freddy krueger's dreamworld but on a gazillion steroids. under other circumstances I can see you making a case for anti-spiral but under these conditions, this fight is more akin to a lion vs a shark in the middle of the ocean, captain america vs aquaman in the middle of the ocean where aquaman controls the ocean.

anti-spiral would literally be powerless in the omega sanction where darkseid would be at his most powerful.

While their raw power is top-notch. Arguably even more impressive is the Anti-Spiral's hax, the advanced technology of the anti-spiral race allows one to warp the fundamental laws if the universe, including probability itself. Think what Toriko characters can do but on a multiversal scale.

soulfire darkseid can do the same too. heck he did it while in a weakened state, the amount of multiversal damage a dying darkseid was causing shook everyone in the dc multiverse to their core

spacetime across the multiverse was being smashed due to his fall. basically warping reality after his body displaces the multiverse.

other feats include depowering heroes and villains in his presence alone. many of whom got their powers from the godsphere too. becomes everything and creating a singularity that was swallowing the multiverse

the dc multiverse itself was damaged in final crisis btw so there's more confirmation a weakened true form darkseid is multiversal.

if soulfire darkseid wanted to defeat anti-spiral he could simply depower him in the omega sanction and proceed to toy with him endlessly. after all he could fight toe-to-toe with the anti-life entity

the battle itself tore right down to the bleed. the bleed itself is the membrane space between universes in the dc multiverse. even the anti-life entity was surprised by soulfire darkseid's power...this is the same anti-life entity that had killed off all the other new gods btw

In fact, as confirmed in an interview, the only reason we were able to see the anti-spiral in the anime was because it was reality anomaly, under normal circumstances the anti-spiral cannot be contained inside a universe. it exists beyond the multiverse, beyond space and time, it's an 11-dimensional being after all.

the same can be said about darkseid as well. an interview by grant morrison describes every single appearance of the new gods is just a projection, not their true form.

Containing it in a 4-dimensional universe is folly.

the dc godsphere is not a spatial 4 dimensional universe btw. it's far beyond that

You brought up that scan from the Imperiex storyline about the DC universe being 11-dimensional. But the fact is apart from that one issue, DC universes have virtually never been portrayed as infinite dimensional.

Enter these 2 gentlemen-

Mr. Mxzyptlk and Bat-Mite are almost universally portaryed as 5-dimensional beings. That's their whole character, that they are 5-dimensional beings. If the DC universe were really 11-dimensional then they would not even be universal yet in fact they have conistently been portrayed as multiversal powers. Look at World's funniest, look at the Emperor Joker storyline- https://imgur.com/a/fceNW

https://imgur.com/a/ExW84 - Mxy easily destroys the entirety of the DC multiverse and does it much more impressively than Darkseid.

Here's Mxy holding the multiverse in his hand- https://i.imgur.com/C2gUppf.jpg

In fact your boy Darkseid and his new gods are portrayed as no match whatsoever to 5D imps- https://imgur.com/a/Xg5JB (If this is what 5D imps can do what could an 11D God do ?)

Completely destroying the DC multiverse is consistently portrayed as a feat even a 5 Dimensional being can do.

This is what happened when a being who is infinite x infinite x infinite x infinite x infinite x infinite times as powerful as Mxy tried to fight Anti-Spiral

That tiny disembodied head belonged to someone who could destroy the DC multiverse with an infinitieth of an infinitieth of an infinitieth of an infinitieth of an infinitieth of an infinitieth of his power.

Destroying the DC multiverse is nothing impressive at all if a character as weak as Mr. Mxzyptlk could do it. The multiverse is clearly 5 dimensional at best. The idea that individual DC universes are 11-dimensional is laughable considering it has never been mentioned before or since that imperiex comic. And Imperiex is a being that is unquestionably weaker than Mxyzptlk so arguing him as an 11D being is madness.

Mr Mxyzptlk himself has the final say on the matter-

The DC multiverse, god spheres and all exists in only 4 dimensions and is little more than a toy in the hands of a 5-dimensional being let alone an 11-dimensional being.

You brought up Gurenn Lagenn dimensions as being spatial dimensions not higher dimensions yet look again at my scans- the words that are used is that the super spiral universes exist "in between" the 10th and 11th dimensions- it is clearly referring to higher dimensions not spatial dimensions.

But you must be saying... "SF Darkseid fought the source who is basically an omnipotent all-powerful being !". Tell me then... isn't its surprising then that someone like Darkseid with a finite power multiplier could defeat him ?

The whole death of the new gods series is non-canon, as stated by Grant Morrisson himself- [Humorously enough, Grant reconciled this horrible lead-in to his story by positioning both Starlin's Death of the New Gods conclusion and the final issue of Countdown to Final Crisis as apocryphal versions of the same unseen story. Morrison also subtlety implied that the conflicting tales could be the result of the Monitors' interference mucking up the entire Cosmic Multiverse (a damning commentary if I ever heard one...).

The whole death of new gods arc has no connection whatsoever with DC cosmology and powerscaling. The source in this series is depicted as universal if even that. The anti-life entity you refer to was threatened by Etrigan of all people and the Source was defeated years ago by some random new gods. The source in this issue is clearly not the omnipotent all-powerful source that is normally seen in DC comics, in feats or portrayal or even personality. In fact it is not even skyfather level. This version of the source is not even shown as powerful enough to destroy a universe by itself, needing help to destroy the fourth world. It would be better to use the 10 the power whatever argument than try to scale Darkseid to this walmart source.

when I use the term "dimensions" in "higher dimensions" I am referring to planes of existence, not geometric constructions in "spatial dimensions". there's a big difference.

You brought up that scan from the Imperiex storyline about the DC universe being 11-dimensional. But the fact is apart from that one issue, DC universes have virtually never been portrayed as infinite dimensional.

well actually...they have. 11 spatial dimensions is just a baseline. there are plenty of larger numbers such as

• 14 spatial dimensions. 14 > 11
• 19 spatial dimensions. 19 > 11
• 196,833 spatial dimensions. 196833 > 11
• and even infinite spatial dimensions. infinity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11
• heck even darkseid's avatar can exist in 28 spatial dimensions and further referenced by metron

Mr. Mxzyptlk and Bat-Mite are almost universally portaryed as 5-dimensional beings. That's their whole character, that they are 5-dimensional beings. If the DC universe were really 11-dimensional then they would not even be universal yet in fact they have conistently been portrayed as multiversal powers.

a single dc universe has nothing to do with the godsphere and beyond. you're still conflating spatial dimensions with higher dimensions or higher planes of existence. each higher realm has innumerable spatial dimensions as well. please refer to this map again and see that the godsphere is above and beyond a single dc universe.

furthermore, darkseid and the new gods are self-aware living ideas. good luck trying to destroy that when not even the spectre channeling the logoz could do it. any proof anti-spiral can deal with such an entity?

Completely destroying the DC multiverse is consistently portrayed as a feat even a 5 Dimensional being can do.

a weakened dying darkseid was doing the same thing. given the vast size of the fourth world, the dc multiverse might as well be a needle in a haystack

too bad the same can't be said about anti-spiral.

Destroying the DC multiverse is nothing impressive at all if a character as weak as Mr. Mxzyptlk could do it.

more impressive than destroying STTGL. allow me to explain...also refer to the previous post on Size Matters

according to the wiki from where you get your information...the maximum size for STTGL is only 20 trillion light years.

this is laughably small compared to a single dc universe which may be 100 trillion light years wide at a bare minimum

I say bare minimum because even then, since the beginning of the birth of a single dc universe, the big bang expanded 60 trillion light years in 0.5 seconds

60 trillion light years in 0.5 seconds is equal to 120 trillion light years in 1 full second. I'm not going to do the math for it but if you were to do this for 10 billion years (age of the dc universe) this would put the 100 trillion light years (and by extension STTGL) to shame.

this means the maximum size of STTGL is smaller than the minimum size for a singular dc universe

by comparison, the size of true darkseid is equivalent to the size of the dc multiverse

by extension, this puts true darkseid's size compared to that of STTGL and anti-spiral to shame

The multiverse is clearly 5 dimensional at best.

no it exists on a 3rd dimensional plane of existence while containing innumerable spatial dimensions

The idea that individual DC universes are 11-dimensional is laughable considering it has never been mentioned before or since that imperiex comic.

actually it has. refer to the top of this post on Further Dimensional Tiering

The DC multiverse, god spheres and all exists in only 4 dimensions and is little more than a toy in the hands of a 5-dimensional being let alone an 11-dimensional being.

too bad this 11-dimensional being (spatially) is only multiversal within a significantly smaller multiverse. STTGL and anti-spiral might as well be a big fish in a small pond

You brought up Gurenn Lagenn dimensions as being spatial dimensions not higher dimensions yet look again at my scans- the words that are used is that the super spiral universes exist "in between" the 10th and 11th dimensions- it is clearly referring to higher dimensions not spatial dimensions.

"in between" doesn't prove anything. you can exist between spatial dimensions just like between neighboring universes or neighboring timelines

the super spiral universes are not some outside higher realm compared to regular universes. they exist on the same plane as regular universes...even then super spiral universes aren't anything special tbh

But you must be saying... "SF Darkseid fought the source who is basically an omnipotent all-powerful being !". Tell me then... isn't its surprising then that someone like Darkseid with a finite power multiplier could defeat him ?

never said he was omnipotent, nor did I refer to it as the original source. I referred to it as the anti-life entity.

The whole death of the new gods series is non-canon, as stated by Grant Morrisson himself- [Humorously enough, Grant reconciled this horrible lead-in to his story by positioning both Starlin's Death of the New Gods conclusion and the final issue of Countdown to Final Crisis as apocryphal versions of the same unseen story. Morrison also subtlety implied that the conflicting tales could be the result of the Monitors' interference mucking up the entire Cosmic Multiverse (a damning commentary if I ever heard one...).

doesn't matter if it's non-canon or not. this is the version I'm allowed to use in the tourney

The whole death of new gods arc has no connection whatsoever with DC cosmology and powerscaling.

again it doesn't matter.

The source in this series is depicted as universal if even that.

slayed all the new gods and having fights take place in a higher realm that makes the dc multiverse look like a germ in comparison if you carefully inspect the dc cosmology map. but sure, it's not even multiversal when it clearly is.

wonder woman even refers to gods (beings who exist in the godsphere) as being universal at minimum let alone a being that surpasses them all

The anti-life entity you refer to was threatened by Etrigan of all people

etrigan wasn't in that storyline unless you're referring to cosmic odyssey where the anti-life entity was actually threatening the fourth world (a realm in the godsphere that dwarfs the dc multiverse btw) such that dr fate had to recruit 4 other members to destroy the anti-life dark dimension (another realm in godsphere that also dwarfs the dc multiverse btw)

and the Source was defeated years ago by some random new gods.

not exactly random if you understand how the dc cosmological godsphere works. a god/godsphere inhabitant is automatically universal, being skyfather level in the godsphere is extremely high multiversal...even then the "source" wasn't defeated. it didn't even fight back. it was split by ritual not by raw power.

The source in this issue is clearly not the omnipotent all-powerful source that is normally seen in DC comics, in feats or portrayal or even personality.

no kidding. the real source is meant to be omnipotent. not that it matters because it's still incredibly powerful

In fact it is not even skyfather level.

slays an entire race of universals but apparently not skyfather level? please read the dc map carefully and try to understand it

This version of the source is not even shown as powerful enough to destroy a universe by itself, needing help to destroy the fourth world.

what universe? your puny super spiral universe that is beneath a singular dc universe which is beneath the dc multiverse which is beneath the fourth world?

It would be better to use the 10 the power whatever argument than try to scale Darkseid to this walmart source.

the fact darkseid needed to increase his power by...

...times should let you know how powerful the anti-life entity really is.

speaking of power there are very rare instances where darkseid's raw power is fully displayed. the anti-life dark dimension was destroyed by a combined effort of dr fate channeling the raw powers of herself, orion, highfather, etrigan and darkseid

even if you lowball this tremendously darkseid still ends up contribution 20% of that power (even if it's all his power) to destroy that anti-life dark dimension.

now add on to the fact that the fight takes place in the omega sanction where anti-spiral would be powerless to do anything plus soulfire darkseid having the soulfire amp...anti-spiral literally has no chance in this battle whatsoever

Firstly, I don't know why you're dedicating so much of your posts to talking about Darkseid's size. There are characters the size of normal humans who'd stomp both Darkseid and the Anti-spiral. Though Anti-spiral's drill is much bigger than he is physically which your diagram fails to acknowledge.

As my opponent agrees the version of the source from the death of the new gods does not scale to the regular source. So the main way of scaling Darkseid comes from the general power level of the new gods, and god-sphere entities. Entities which are portrayed as below the 5-dimensional Mr. Mxyzptlk. My opponent has done us the service of simplifying the question- Are Gurenn Lagenn verse dimensions, higher dimensions or merely spatial dimensions ?

Gurenn Lagenn cosmology is based on Brane comsology and M-Theory

Perhaps the best way to understand higher dimensions in this context is these videos- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkxieS-6WuA and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySBaYMESb8o

10-dimensions in this context is a truly unimaginable number of universes that positively dwarfs the DC multiverse (at least as it is known to beings like the new gods, the multiverse as it is known to the Endless and Lucy and Mikey is a different story)

An interesting statement that Lordgenome makes is that the anti-spiral is 'breaking through' the membranes of higher dimensions. This furthers the idea that dimensions in the GL verse are like membranes stacked around each other. A hierarchy if you will. What does this remind you of ? The DC multiverse and the diagram my opponent has shown you. Isn't that a series of membranes ? Exactly, but the dc multiverse is only about 4 or 5 membranes, encircling each other, while the gurenn lagenn multiverses are 10. And the Anti-spiral had the power to affect every single possible multiverse. He existed above it, in extradimensional space.

The GL verse follows M-theory so higher dimensions in it, really are higher dimensions in that they transcend lower levels of existence. Higher dimensions in the Godsphere/Mzyktlpk sense, not the spatial dimensions of a singular universe sense. Even a point in the 10th dimension contains all possible timelines of all possible universes. The traditional DC multiverse is only various possible timelines of one DC universe. That's why most universes in the DC multiverse have the same characters. There's an earth and a JLA and a superman in pretty much all of them. That's because the regular DC multiverse is merely the list of all possible timelines of a single universe. Whenever there is a divergence in a point of history in this universe, a new alternate universe is created in this multiverse. 'Crisis of Infinite Earths', this is an interesting word. Each of the infinite universes that Darkseid was affecting had an earth. The multiverses that people like Darkseid and Mxy destroy are merely alternate timelines of the same universe, starting from the same big bang, with the same laws of physics and gravity and similar rules. They are not at all comparable to the DC multiverse as it exists for beings like the Endless and Mikey and Lucey.

The Anti-spiral has the power to affect all possible multiverses, not just one mutiverse like Darkseid. There are types of multiverses and you must understand the difference between them. 1. the multiverse that is merely all possible timelines of one universe and 2. the multiverse that is all possible timelines of all possible universes, aka all possible multiverses.

A 4-dimensional construct like the local DC multiverse is an infinitesimal thing to an 11-dimensional being like the Anti-spiral. They transcend all possible multiverses.

Do you think Darkseid's Omega Sanction is cool ? Well the Anti-spiral literally has a version of that called the Infinite Multiverse Labyrinth- which is basically the same thing but with multiverses instead of universes. It's an infinite number of Omega Sanctions chained together and they threw each member of Team Dai-Gurenn into their own individual omega sanction. The fact you're having this fight in an Omega Sanction is laughable and I can imagine the Anti-spiral finding some humour in how pathetic it is.

https://imgur.com/xwhxMsC The green lined paragaph has the statement saying the Anti-spiral has command over every possible multiverse.

And they themself exists above this 10-dimensional construct.

Here is Yoko throughout the multiverse. By which I mean in every possible timeline of her universe. But there are an infinite number of such universes, each of them completely unique and different, each of which has an infinite number of possible timelines.

Each of these points is a universe and the lines emanating from it are alternate timelines, alternate universes, thus constituting a multiverse and there are an infinite number of such multiverses and the Anti-spiral transcends them all. Being on a higher plane of existence entirely.